Going Against Fiat Media & Bitcoin Magazine Print Edition

Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. Today for episode 327, my guest is Mike Germano. He recently joined the team at Bitcoin Magazine, and today we're talking about the print edition relaunch of the Bitcoin Magazine. As some of you might know, it initially was a print edition, a print magazine, and then they took that away, and now it's being rela- Launched. So we talk about why, as well as problems with the media today, because Mike came from Vice, and so obviously has a lot of perspectives to share on media today, contrasting fiat media versus Bitcoin media and the differences and what we hope to see coming out of this. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, swan dot com. It's the easy way to accumulate Bitcoin while also learning about Bitcoin. Swan creates lots of resources and makes lots of them free for anyone to con- Consume and get them online. So for example, you can get Inventing Bitcoin or Twenty One Lessons or Why Bitcoin. So these are three free books all available on swan dot com. You can get them. So for example, swanbitcoin dot com slash freebook gets you Inventing Bitcoin. Now, you can start off with a lump sum purchase and then set up your ongoing recurring purchase plan. So Swan offers a range of services if you are a retail stalker or whether you are a high net worth individual looking for high touch service, you might be interested in Swan. Private. With Swan Private, you get a dedicated Bitcoin expert to take you through and teach you aspects of setting up and purchasing, as well as guiding you on other aspects of Bitcoin. So Swan is a great place to send to your new coin to friends and family, because they will learn about Bitcoin on the way. Go to swan dot com. Hoddle Hoddle is a peer-to-peer Bitcoin-backed lending platform, so you can lend or borrow stablecoins globally and anonymously using Bitcoin as collateral. So if you need some fiat liquidity and you don't wanna sell your Bitcoin, you can. Borrow stablecoins against your Bitcoin, and in that scenario, you still hold one out of three keys in the multi-signature during that deal. Now, on the other hand, if you have stablecoins, you can earn some interest. You can lend out those stablecoins, and you define the terms and the APR for those deals. So it allows you a lot of flexibility in how you want to lend out stablecoins, and in doing so, you can earn some interest. So if you're interested, go to lend.hodl.hodl.com. That's L-E-N-D. e n d dot h o d l h o d l dot com. Are you looking to get started with Bitcoin mining? Compass Mining dot io are able to help you with this. So if you're not sure how to go about sourcing your ASIC or finding a facility to have that ASIC hosted at, you can use Compass Mining. So you can select your ASIC, you can pay for that and it will come online at the facility you've selected, and then you can select the mining pool, you pay the hosting fees, and you are receiving SAT. And this can also be done without KYC, so that's potentially also a benefit for you there. Also, they've got a range of different machines, some are new and some are actually second hand as part of what's called Compass Marketplace. So this might also interest you if you're, if you're interested to get a cheaper deal in terms of buying a straight up new machine. They've also got a lot of content as well, so go and check them out, it's CompassMining dot io. So, Mike, welcome to the show. Thank you, I'm really happy to be here. So, Mike, I, I know you're involved with Bitcoin Magazine and everything, so do you wanna just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got involved with Bitcoin Magazine?

Yeah, I'm the publisher over at Bitcoin Magazine, which I've been for the last six months, but I've known the team now for many years, primarily when I was, the Chief Digital Officer over at Vice Media when Vice used to be edgy and trying to tell the truth and do big stories. And at the time, you know, we were a great counterculture brand that, you know, loved freedom and loved all the things I think Bitcoiners really, really do like. And, I remember telling people, Mike, and I'd been a Bitcoiner for a while, thinking, "Hey, Bitcoiner is the most punk counterculture thing out there, you know, that we should be-- Why would we not wanna have a bigger relationship with the people in this space?" And, you know, I, I remember everyone advising me, "Well, no, Bitcoin's for buying drugs We let-- we don't need to just think that and start a conversation with the folks at Bitcoin Magazine, who, you know, we had Vice Magazine, so anyone who produces a magazine, there's a very small group of us, and we had good discussions and got to know that team and, and to be very honest, I saw more that like pirate, rebellious, trying to find the truth and, and, and, and make society a better place coming from Bitcoin Magazine than I, than I did Vice. And I had a kind of a background more in being a, Websites and getting in trouble in high school for, you know, of course, saying things, but realized, you know, freedom of expression has, has obviously always been a cornerstone of like where my morals and ethics and, and beliefs are, and the internet allowed you to do that. So that was always very exciting for me and built a whole career kind of around, around that. And after leaving Vice and traveling with family and realizing how important that is, to spend time with your family while you're working so hard and starting businesses if you can't Ended up catching back up with David Bailey, the CEO BTC Inc, prior to the conference and realizing, you know, if there's gonna be any time to join Bitcoin Magazine and really make this media company something that, that we all want it to be and the purpose that it should have, now's a great time. So I reluctantly joined because I knew I would be completely hyper focused on it and, you know, tune out everything else and, and just kind of go pretty extreme with it, which, which, which I've done and I'm very excited about.

That's great to hear. And So it just has this different culture around it. Bitcoin just has this different culture around it. I've heard Jack Dorsey say it's very much, it's of the internet, it's by the internet, it just has that feel around it. So how does that play into your thinking about how a Bitcoin media and Bitcoin magazine company should be?

Great question. And maybe you're alluding to the Bitcoin magazine as a print edition. So why would we be-- if, if Bitcoiners, if we've all been grown and born in the internet, why would you do a print magazine? You know, first First, I think the thing that makes the Bitcoin community and culture, I, I believe the best, is they're curious, they want to educate themselves on their own opinions, but they honestly are willing to, listen to people that they disagree with, which is kind of the most, I think, Important part of any conversation or any debate is, are you willing to listen to the other person and not just call them, you know, a Nazi or say they're a communist, but actually dig in and, and, and hear something. So I think our community is interested in being educated and seeing different, opinions, and that's why we have a diverse culture. As much as they wanna think it's a bunch of tech bros, you look around and the people that are involved in Bitcoin, they're from all over the world, they have, you know, different opinions, their core beliefs seem

That's the community, the culture is everything that resonates from the community. and one of the things that they do is they value, they value their time, they value their work, and I believe that because of that, they value the work that Bitcoin Magazine does. So to come out with a print magazine, which, you know, and let me tell you, for someone who we resurrected the, the print magazine, we're now printing quarterly, starting with the El Salvador issue, I, I understand why print is dead. It's extremely difficult to want to print, the cost of paper has been going up, I'm not sure if that's just inflation or wood prices or the fact that the US government's printing so much that there's no more paper left for anyone else. But, you know, you're a new magazine and no company even wants to touch you, having to get, you know, distribution. So it was a real pain in the ass to, get going the print magazine. However, it did two things for us. One, Twitter, you're used to having it instantly, right? And with a magazine, everyone knows that this is a story that took time to make, that it's not gonna be reported on something that happened yesterday, right? So understand that be-- between the time we print, design it, you know, that's at minimum a month before it gets in your hands, you're giving us time to actually perform the story. and I believe you've had Aaron, one of our, you know, our, our best reporters, actually the editor of the magazine, who You know, show a burning ATM and then leave, and, you know, they've been there for twelve hours, you know, Aaron was there for three months, and that's how we have the best story about what happened with El Salvador. We have the most in depth, we have the most information, we have the most time spent, than any other company, any other media company in the world, and that's was because we made that investment in it. Because, once again, the El Salvador issue, so that story that, you know, everyone else thinks on Bitcoin Day Give that the magazine allows us to have time to tell the story. When you buy a magazine, what we have is people really take a lot of pride in it. The biggest issue that we're facing with the magazine is we can't ship it in like regular mail because a regular mail magazine gets shipped to you and it gets like the corners a little frayed and everyone starts freaking out on us. We have to like package this magazine up so, we have to go to the extreme that they really, it's something that they are excited about, you know, it has a item, one that might say, "Hey, look, I've been a fan of Bitcoin Magazine since issue seven," or, or it's something that they feel, they can hand to a friend because, look, Bitcoin is a, is a difficult, topic for a lot of people to, to understand, and, and I believe that when you see a print magazine, you realize, wow, people care enough about this. This is, you know, this is a real industry, this is a real business, this is a real community. you know, it's a physical something that they can't, that they can hold, that they can pass on, and more importantly, then all those words, the internet, we can't have a, a Google or Facebook remove our content, from every magazine unless they wanna start burning books. so it's also a way to preserve, Some of, some of our thoughts

and make sure we can't get censored. And I think there is this constant, whenever you're making any kind of content, there's always this co-constant battle between trying to punch out a lot of material versus high quality, 'cause obviously more quality costs a lot more effort, time, money, you name it. There's, there's that interesting balance there. So from your perspective, how do you see that with Bitcoin Magazine, especially now with the physical edition?

Yeah, our goal for the physical edition is to do the best quality con- content we can. So we are already working on stories now that will not, you know, for two issues down the road, so that's six months from now, we're already-- there's not enough investigative reporting that's happening in Bitcoin. There's not enough time allowed to have this. It is, it doesn't make financial sense for us to do. What we are fortunate about is that David Bailey, the other partners in the company, they believe in this mission so much that, they're allowing us to make this investment while it might not make sense. from a just business plan saying this is how much we wanna invest in the story versus how many magazines we can sell. we have, obviously, we have a conference that is, you know, Bitcoin 2022 that does bring in revenue for us, which can, which can help us tell these important stories. We think that this is a, a cycle, and to be blunt, we've had amazing subscription growth already, and this is just letting us know that this is something that they want. So as long as that continues, this is gonna continue to fund, the stories

in the magazine helps us tell a story, but it's kind of fun talking to traditional, it sounds weird to say traditional Bitcoin companies, but more of these, you know, Bitcoin and blockchain companies saying, "Hey, look, we'd love for you to do a print ad." They're like, "We don't even have a print ad. What are you even talking about?" And like, "Okay, we'll design the print ad for you 'cause we know you don't have a team to do that." So, what's nice is people are very supportive of the magazine.

That are kind of more, I guess, pop culture that could get the people who are just getting into Bitcoin. So that's the biggest, I think, problem that we're facing now is, is this for the hardcore Bitcoin community or is this for new people entering the Bitcoin space? Because we could be a counterculture magazine and movement, but we do wanna go mainstream when we do see the benefits of the Bitcoin message helping, you know, everyone. So there's a balance there that sometimes some of the, the articles might be very difficult for read for someone who's even been in Bitcoin for two Reward and, and, and, and, and educate and provide content for, you know, people who've been, you know, fighting the good fight in Bitcoin for, you know, the last nine years, eight years, but we also need to start making content that can help, you know, no coiners or, or, or, or they're, you know, just kind of curious about Bitcoin because this is, for a lot of other people, Bitcoin Magazine was the first time that they, they saw some of this content, that they started seeing people passionate about it, and we

I definitely can appreciate that as well myself when I'm thinking about podcast episodes and targeting beginner versus intermediate versus advanced level bitcoiners and even different subjects, right? Is it a cultural sort of thing or is it more economic or is it more technical? Is it more some other element of this? And the other thing with Bitcoin is things can change so quickly, right? So someone might have gone and written a guide on how to self-custody or how to run their Bitcoin node, and then six months later or one year A year later, it's changed. So how is that gonna work with the print magazine as well? Like if someone writes a guide, let's say, and that goes into the magazine, but then, you know, a year, a year down the line, will it serve more like a time capsule for people? Okay, this is how people set up their Bitcoin node in twenty twenty-one.

Yeah, I think that's part of the, the fun part about all this. Look back at some of the old magazines when you see when, when people are trying to tell you how

to use a, a V Technology was back then, look what you had to do. so, you know, let's hope that, innovation keeps continuing in, in this and people look back at self, you know, self custody, go, "That's what you had to do in order to, you know, to, to secure your Bitcoin." I would say we probably don't do as many guides, we leave our guides for online because you want that information to be, you know, up, up to date. I think it's also the magazine, it's important to Known what's happening in culture at the time, and, you know, El Salvador being a, an example, I think, you know, some people are a little bit hesitant about a government, you know, adopting Bitcoin, is that good or is that bad? You know, to try to understand what the sentiment was at the time, what people were actually thinking, what were the, the, the concerns and the, and the causes, so it, it, you know, we, we-- that is a time capsule of that moment, that is a time capsule of what happened when El That's very truthful. So we're not just fanboys saying everything is great, this is how it all works, you know, we have to do the journalist job there of, of actually reporting on it. and so once again, facts will change and people try to rewrite history, but, you know, we've, we've written it down, we've printed it, we don't have the-- By not rewriting history, I think that's a crutch that a lot of tr- other media companies use, you know, to repost it or to delete the old one, you know

dog pool of, changing definitions over time or things like that. It's the magazine that went out in this month of twenty twenty-two is that magazine. of course, it depends who you talk to and who you're listening to or who you're reading, but sometimes in the Bitcoin community, we can get very technical about things, and sometimes that's not the best way to appeal to the pre-coiners and the new-coiners, because sometimes the story, stories are what really captivate people's minds more so. So I, I presume that's also- Something that came into your mind as well about how to structure, how to plan what goes into the magazine, right?

Look, the magazine, the physical magazine should also be a celebration of the community that- That Bitcoiners have created a culture that we are embracing and trying to push, and, it's important also highlight the people that are making this happen. And by doing so, you can see a little bit of yourself and probably everybody that's, that's doing this, and get to understand more people. Because I, I personally believe that Bitcoin's values, there's so many people out there that share the same values, they just maybe don't know that about Bitcoin, right? Because as we all know, there is no Bitcoin PR company. You know, if you think about like, what company could be started that there's not a PR company providing information? There's so much misinformation or they don't understand. I mean, news can't even cover I think when we are looking at what type of topic we're trying to cover, I think it's important to highlight, real cultural stories. For example, Bitcoiners Travel Guide. Why do I think that's important? not just 'cause, oh, here travel to El Salvador, 'cause El Salvador's so Bitcoin. No, the point is that, you know, we have, we have Dred, so we have a, you know, we have our Jamaican pole vaulter, who's, you know, a, a hardcore Bitcoiner and, and, you know, does an amazing job with Pledget and everything else like that, be like, "Hey, listen, you're one of, you're a loving, great person that's already People in a new way. When you're traveling to a spot and they're, you know, they accept Bitcoin, they're excited to have you there. This is a language we all speak, and so we were just in Ukraine and Kiev. You're talking people accept Bitcoin, they might speak Russian, Ukrainian, doesn't matter. We kinda have this smile that we know we're, we, we all, you know, believe at least in Bitcoin, there's, there's, there's a connection we have there. And I think that's exciting to me. It's a way to showcase here are places So like travel here or travel there, but you can dig into almost understanding why people are using it, the type of people that are using it, how you can travel to those destinations. So that I think, you know, it's a travel guide, that's a context to do it. Now American Express and Mastercard spend tons of money sponsoring travel shows. They don't spend the whole show talking to you about how Visa, international terminals work with Merchant Pay so that the ex- like, they don't spend the whole time talking about that, right? They try to tell you, "Listen, you can go anywhere in the world, and if you have this card, you're able to purchase things around the world." What, what do you wanna explore? It's about you. They're, you know, so the similar to that balance, you know, we wanna talk about what The technical aspects. Now, we were in Ukraine and we rented a tank with Bitcoin, but we actually, in order to do it, the guy would only accept it if we had to, we had to use a Telegram a bot where you, send your Bitcoin and then you send it directly to his prepaid Visa card, you know? So it took us like ten or fifteen minutes, you know? But it's funny dealing with a guy who's, you know, seventy-five years old who happens to have a tank, who's part of this, you know, former Soviet

It was clunky, but it was fun to actually see and, and, and you can tell that in an exciting story, but also once again, put a time capsule to, how people were actually using it back then. What was actually the adoption rate? What are the tricks that other people are using to be able to make this, you know, part of their kind of economic, A financial life, but, but also be, you know, be utilizing, Bitcoin technology, but maybe the, the best possible way for them to use it in their traditional way of paying.

Yeah, and you mentioned Ukraine, so I'm curious how you get the ideas for which stories to cover, like, and I guess this also came from what you mentioned earlier with what was happening with Vice around what's the interesting story, what's gonna be hot, what's gonna be on people's minds, or what's gonna get people thinking? How do, how do you think about that in terms of Bitcoin stories?

One of the things that made me most excited about joining this company was, I thought there were some of the best stories that are happening right now are around what Bitcoiners are doing, and for some odd reason, they're not being told in traditional media. You know, we're, we're, you know, we see organically an unbelievable podcast community that wants to talk about it, but we're not visually being able to, to see it as much or capture it. So For, for, for us, when we're looking at, at, at stories, unfortunately there's too many, right now to tackle all of them, but part of our plan, is to, grow our, our- Our media company, our magazine, our video product, and part of that is doing that internationally, because even though Bitcoin is a global language, you know, English, while it's predominant language, isn't the global language, right? And if we're trying to get more people to understand Bitcoin, we need to be translating our content, localizing it, which is why we opened a office in Kiev, in Ukraine, to handle, you know, the, what's called the CIS region, right? But mostly Eastern Europe and Russia, which we're

original reporting done by reporters on the ground there. And what that will start doing for us is we're building out our global network because it's not just us looking, you know, I'm based here in New York, our company's based in Nashville, we're kind of have people all over the world, we're a very cool remote company, but it's not just a US version of what is the story. We need people that are kind of in the trenches, that are actually reporting on how this is, this is happening whether that's in El Salvador. I mean, I Poor Aaron is gonna be known as the McDonald's guy because, you know, he made that original tweet like McDonald's and Bitcoin, but the truth was it was because he was there for three months and knew what was going on, you know, and, and that was the place he was always going, so he finally asked, was able to capture that. And, and now it's always weird because now you see all these Bitcoiners go to McDonald's and then like take a picture and some like, write a passage thing, and, and which is strange, but, but that Force feed this story. So having this community, these people that, that are, that are telling us the interesting insights, you know, I hate to say this, and don't wanna be crude, but in Ukraine, there was actually, you know, you're, you're there, you're talking to people, and you find out, well, there's a priest that actually accepts Bitcoin as donations at one of the churches, and you're like, "Oh, that's cool." And then someone tells you, "Well, also there's a stripper who has a Bitcoin, to find these very unique stories that, you know, I think would resonate to, to an international audience, and also highlight some of the, the things that are happening locally. Part of selecting the story, we have, you know, we have our editorial team, but we also, I think it's important to try to look outside that and look for, for news stories that maybe traditionally we didn't cover in the past.

Right, and it's probably fair to say a lot of Bitcoin community discussion is happening on places like Bitcoin Twitter, on the podcasts, and so on, where that can be very US centric and very English language centric as well. And that's, that's actually something I heard even when I was, I was in El Salvador as well, when I was at, adopting Bitcoin, I was chatting with some people just on a side conversation, and it, it sort of came up this idea that a lot of the Bitcoin conversation is very US- U.S. centric, and so that was something that struck me, and I think even for me, as a, someone who, who was previously based in Australia, I found myself covering a lot, you know, doing episodes w- based on things going on in the U.S. or with developers and other writers or people working or coming out of the U.S. as well. And I wonder what's your sense been of that, at least in the last, say, three or four years?

I think the reason why people are doing US stories is 'cause it's the easiest. It's right in front of them, it's in English, and that one seems to always get the traction. But I don't wanna say it's lazy, but I think that's, does that really help the purpose we're tr-- we're trying to have hyperbitcoinization? We're not trying to have hyper-English speaking bitcoinization, right? And let's be very blunt, it's not Texas, it's not Florida, it's not Wyoming, it's not the US, it's not Canada Unique adoption of Bitcoin, it's a Spanish speaking, you know, country called El Salvador that a year ago, were people even talking about it or caring about it, right? No. So the biggest story isn't happening in the US, right? And I think that if Bitcoin is about meritocracy, you know, it's about, you know, this, this ability for, I think anyone to participate, why are we limiting ourselves to only English stories when the whole point is anyone can do this? I think the biggest innovations are happening outside, you know, outside of the US, right? I Part of this is happening. So it's, it's, you know, I understand why, you know, Bitcoin Twitter, a part of it, unfortunately, I would say, by doing live, you know, with Bitcoin Twitter spaces is you're actually also unfortunately more of a time zone restraint. So you maybe are talking to people, you know, okay, cool, if you're English speaking in the US, you, you tend to want to talk about that because that's kind of in the times and the people you're listening or talking to. So that's where I think, the type of Video, that gives us the time for how we aired it, but once again, we have to, we have to create more hubs internationally, more bureaus internationally, because that's where the important stories, and I think we really push our team to, take a look at that. We were the first ones, for example, that had a draft, Of the law that Ukraine was trying to pass through their house on, it was more of a crypto based law of how to, to accept it. You know, we were the first ones to hire, you know, a lawyer to translate this in English so any English speaking group could actually see this. Well, you know, I think other media outlets wouldn't have taken the time to care, care about that, or they're just like, "Oh, here's a law passed, this is what someone said in the news, and here's a quote." Well, okay, here's the exact law, here Nationally how this is adopted, not just how people in the US are fighting about it.

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Totally agree. And you said earlier, look, Bitcoin was born on the internet, right? And the whole point of the internet is we're all connected, you know, that's, that's, that's been the beautiful thing about it, right? And that's the beautiful thing about Bitcoin, doesn't it, doesn't it connect us all? You know, if we're all trying to get onto, I guess, one financial framework, this is happening globally, it's not just happening in the US. Startups obviously, because they get the VC funding, 'cause VCs feel more comfortable with And sometimes local press can be, can be lazy and, and just be reporting on things that they, that they know in the US. So you have at least a massive competitive advantage if you're building, especially in the tech, startup companies in the space in the US. It's just, it's just the truth. And unfortunately, sometimes people then, some great entrepreneurs decide to move to the US in order, order to do that. But I guess, you know, maybe what we're hopefully seeing now that, you know, Obviously, you know, some of the pandemic, what really impacted people's freedoms, their inability to travel or move, which is, you know, pretty gross and disgusting. Maybe one of the benefits could be that people who are trying to now search for, as they're gaining their freedom, taking away, they have to be in lockdowns and ridiculousness, and they're trying to look at freedom, and they find Bitcoin, maybe they're building things within their local community. These are things that we should be h-highlighting, not just, "Let me just move to the US and

Company, we have a lot of international people organically because people who are attracted to a Bitcoin only company, you know, how many Bitcoin only media companies are that out there are there? Very little. They're gonna be, you know, the, the Coin Telegraph, CoinDesk, fine, they're covering everything, but the people believe in Bitcoin, want to be at a Bitcoin only company, there's not a lot out there. So we're trying our best to make sure we get in these places that obviously we also, create a business model that we can hire local people, we can

Sponsorship dollars or the right, partners, and in order to do that, there needs to be an active space where people want those products. You know, you don't wanna just advertise in a region where no one wants it. So we're actually, I think, in a really unique space by just when we open in locations, hearing who's willing to even advertise, you know, that there's, these are, are there startups and companies that there are other technologies out there, it's not just the US. So I think, you know, we hopefully wanna be a really great

platform that people wanna come to to tell us what, what's going on.

And speaking of understanding what's going on, Bitcoin can be a technical subject, right? It can be, I'm thinking here of, let's say Aaron, Aaron Van Wierden's Taproot explainer articles or other things like that, and that's maybe at the development and technical level, but even other aspects of it that are sort of quite nuanced and take someone who has quite good knowledge of that industry or area, whether it's- Whether it's AML laws or whether it's economics or whether it's, you know, some other thing, how do you think about that aspect of it? Like, let me put the question this way, what's your take on the state of the way Bitcoin is covered in the media today when it's not Bitcoin specialist media?

Are you talking about like traditional media or the corporate media? Right.

Yeah. As in how they might cover and they might give some explanation of Taproot or something and maybe it's maybe inaccurate or some other thing.

Yeah. So I think we've all seen just a real big Corporate or mainstream media these last couple of years, which is, I think, horrible for our, us, our society. They failed on all fronts, they're doing a failure in any type of investigative journalism or even getting the facts right. They're constantly, the internet is constantly showcasing when they're just getting even facts wrong because they're trying to push an agenda. And what scares me the most is, I don't see corporate media wanting to push a positive agenda for Bitcoin at all. There's no advantage to them for That, because Bitcoin, you know, is, let's see, it's, it's scary, they don't understand it, they are jealous, half the, half of them are jealous, they love to say, "Well, I knew Bitcoin was a thousand," like, "I don't care," you know, like that's irrelevant for how you're now covering that topic. And also, this is a very scary thing for all their advertisers. All these, all these corporate media makes a tremendous amount of money from the same companies that will be disrupted by the adoption of Bitcoin

Not incentivized to cover Bitcoin properly. And two, they don't have the staff, they don't have the resources, and they don't reach out to the technical people to wanna do that. So traditional corporate media, it doesn't have-- they're not gonna spend forty-five minutes on air properly discussing Taproot, right? Or properly getting into, you know, what the Lightning Network is really about, the advantages and disadvantages. They're not set up to do that. They're set up for at most a seven minute video sketch. Now, and also anyone technical's not gonna go work full time for Forbes, right? So, and do this. So, you know, they might interview an expert every now and then, and that's just because they want the soundbite, right? So the experts that are being selected aren't the ones that are doing good technical analysis. They're the ones who are giving you a soundbite that says like, "Lightning's good. Oh, great, thank you." You know? Is, you know, with all the energy fud that comes out of, you know, corporate media, I think we, you know, w- was NBC covered something that says like Bitcoin mining is heating up the lakes and is, killing the environment, and you're like, "What are you talking about?" And we actually had like a, a proper scientist like Wright actually look back and find the temperature of all the lakes and like did a real amazing, nutty analysis to illustrate like, actually, they're completely la- like nothing what they said is truthful. And what's scary is think about Nbc when they don't even care and their author and all their readers like, "Yeah, Bitcoin mining is killing fish," and, you know, like, it's, it's ridiculous. they are gonna push on this environmental, topic nonstop. They're going to, you know, they also say, "Oh, yeah, the government seized Bitcoin." Well, that's actually not accurate what, what you're saying. So no one's holding them accountable. We're looking, now at Bitcoin Magazine, how we can hold the media accountable, because when I don't care when other media companies are saying, "Hey, actually, you've actually, this is incorrect, this is inaccurate." there, there's more pressure on that media company to tell the truth. So we think that this is a responsibility of ours, because, you know what? I, I, I, it's not a joke, but, you know, I- I, I, I obviously love my mom a lot, as any son would, but she, I like getting the text from when she watches mainstream media when they bring up Bitcoin. So even my mom who- I have to keep telling her, "Bitcoin mag, Bitcoin's not a company, that I work for. I work for Bitcoin magazine." She'll say, "You know, Michael, on Tucker Carlson, he had an episode about Bitcoin, you gotta watch it, Channel Five, right?" So like, I'm watching how a large group of people, this is how they're getting their news about Bitcoin, they are getting it from corporate, and mainstream media, and, you know, if they're not accurately reporting and no one's holding them accountable, then you have millions of people who are gonna be getting false information, which isn't never gonna help our movement.

Right. And I think there's a range of egregious errors that I see regularly. Obviously, that's outside of our bubble, if you will, of Bitcoin specialists, you know, podcasters, writers, et cetera. But as an example, some of the corporate media will go and ask some complete, irrelevant or wrong person, or they'll just give credence to a person The likes of, you know, the kinda person who's just gonna pump a lot of the, "Oh no, Bitcoin is boiling the oceans," or "Oh no, whate- whatever the line may be." And the problem is just they don't even know who to ask, right? They don't even know the right person to ask that question because they'll just see anyone who's saying the bad take on Bitcoin and, and then amplify that person. And then that person then may get the benefit of saying, "Oh, look, see, CNBC and Forbes and all these other big people quote..." Quoted me, I'm an, I'm an expert on this, and then they, in some weird way, they benefit out of this because everyone's just copying off everyone else, and they say, "Oh, NPC news organization one, two, three, and four all quoted this guy."

Yep.

Right?

You know, look, think about this. Here's the problem with the, the structure that we have is in the past, if news broke about Facebook A reporter will call Facebook's PR department and say, "Hey, you know, I'm from ABC, that, you know, they have a relationship with their corporate PR, internal PR. Hey, what's this story about? Do you want a quote on the record?" And they'll say, "Sure, we'll quote on the record, A, B, and C." Or, "Hey, we're gonna quote off the record." or they'll say, "Look, you got these completely wrong. You know, these, this isn't, these aren't the facts.

as Home Depot, you know, and they would get that for Bitcoin they don't have that. So now they don't know who to turn to, 'cause once again, their traditional, approach was, you know, get quote from company. There is no company to get a quote from. So now you have these people who don't even know how to handle this because they were used to being force-fed information by an internal corporate PR company. There is no one, so now you have crazy voices all saying a bunch of different things. Once again, there's the freedom we have, you know, to, for people to express their viewpoints, and you're right, they're going to the person who they think will give them the best soundbite, and that, so that, you know, they fall back on the easiest thing, which is person who gives them the best soundbite, not actually breaking down to, okay, who is really genuinely an expert in this field that's gonna provide us with information, even if it's not sexy or if it nor have they shown us that they, that they're willing to do that, which, once again, goes back to why it's super important and, and, and, and, and essential for us to be able to provide, you know, accurate reporting on this, do more in depth reporting so that they can cite the work that we're doing, 'cause we're like, look, we actually have proper journalists in this space who are digging down, who'll provide you with more information, and I guess part of our role at Bitcoin Magazine is to call out corporate and mainstream press when they You know, being completely inaccurate. So I think that's something that, you know, we haven't done enough, enough with as an organization, 'cause, you know, we're, we're trying to grow as fast as we can and bring in smart people, but I think it's our responsibility to also, you know, call this out because, it's a real negative thing, and now, you're right, there's a lot of hucksters that get to say they're experts in something because just because they were willing to give a shitty soundbite, you know?

Very unfortunate. And so I'm curious as well, as you've been in the media industry in your career, do you see that there's like some fundamental problem with the model or what-- Is it, or has media always been this bad or like what, what's your take on how things have gotten to where they are in the normal media world?

I mean, I had a company in two thousand and five as the first social media agency, and we were building and, and we were half developers and half, you know, people understood the, you know, social- Web and when we sold our company to Vice, we had been building for a lot of media companies, and I grew up really just having so much respect and admiration for what media companies could do. They were the ones that were actually finding the truth And, you know, I think whether-- I'm not sure if Trump broke everyone's head or, you know, I will say, obviously I was part of the media that, you know- We knew how to write a good headline to get people to read our content, right? But unfortunately, we-- whether it's the media that's, that, that's failed or it's people's desire to intake media that's failed, you know, this, this system, unfortunately, is, you know, it's now being built to just be a partisan, you know, Hyperloop of the same information that people want, want to hear. And, you know, when you see CNN that was once respected, was once neutral, just being a complete shell. You know, I mean, like, they're not-- And, and once again, I don't care what side the political you're on. The whole point of reporting is no one should know what side you're politically on, right? It's, it's embarrassing to watch, you know? And I think part of it also is, you know, you have a-- I will say, especially I saw this advice was Get out, get that information, you know, meet someone maybe completely different than them, but you could empathize with, with what they were going through and, and, and, and tell that discussion not to agree with everything that they, they say, what they stand for, but understand why they got there. And now, obviously, in what is, you know, the real disease, which is woke, that has gone through, you know, all these media organizations where people are afraid to say the truth, they're afraid to report on facts 'cause they're gonna get, you know You know, you know, what the corporation wants them because they're afraid that, you know, that Media Matters, which is a shitty organization, is gonna go to Pepsi and get them to pull their advertising because they said something, you know, they said that like, you know, If you say that men can't have babies, then all of a sudden now you are, you know, you're transphobic and you should be kicked off of every-- We're, we're living in that kind of crazy time where they're getting pressure. I mean, they're getting self-censorship. you're watching traditional reporters just leave the traditional media jobs, like, "This isn't what I signed up for, and like, you're not telling the truth." You know, you're seeing, as dumb as it sounds, I mean, I think a turning point is gonna be You're looking at going like, "What are you talking about? Like, factually, this isn't true. How could you get away with saying this?" They are, I think, kind of in this little tizzy where, they're not being called out for anything. You look at all the court cases against the media companies about, accuracy, and they're all saying, "Well, no, no, we're not news, we're entertainment." You know, they, they can identify as entertainment, which allows them to lie. it's a-- I think Spread it to anyone else because they're trying to say, "You know, if you just trust us CNN or MSNBC, the mainstream media, we will tell you the truth." It's these other people, it's this other, you know, bad information because of Facebook allowing other people to talk. I mean, how is this not an extremely scary thing for people? How are they looking at this as like, "Oh, this is a positive that, you know, the media organizations are the ones trying to get any alternative media, any alternative voice, you know, censored, removed because, you know,

Reporting, and not being held accountable for it. I mean, it is, you know, it's, I, I'm horribly scared by it, it's very sad, and, you know, you're watching now a generation of people that are trying to push their cause, not push the facts. So whether it's Vice or other companies, it just looks like a bunch of hall monitors that came in and, and, you know, they're trying to police everyone on their virtue and they're trying to force the world to, to look at everything exactly in their view versus also, versus the factual story. So it's a very scary time, for media, and I think especially with our company, the, the importance of kind of having a niche. One issue that you talk about is we can be experts in it, and hopefully we can help inform other people that are looking for expert opinions and not looking for more, you know, kind of crappy fluff.

I think it's interesting because there's different answers or different ideas that have been put out there as to why media have gotten so bad, right? One idea is, okay, the advertising model that they used Cut away. And now that don't make as much, now they had to drive in a more, quote unquote, clickbait fashion, and maybe that was what drove it. And then another answer could also be that, look, actually, it's a reflection of the people. They had become very high time preference, right? They, instead of being able to read a book, now they want a short summary, or now they want, you know, these five-second TikTok videos, and it's their impatience that has driven media companies to now respond back to that, and it Again, that's a collectivist idea, but it's, it's they're responding back to the people. and then one other idea, and I think you touched on this a little bit, is this idea around competence, that sometimes the tech-- the highly technically skilled person can earn a lot more money in some other job, so he's not gonna become a journalist anymore or like a, a proper professional anymore.

Yeah. Look, you bring up great points. I think the point I get most aggravated about your point about, Oh, well, the media company's just providing you with the information you wanna see, you know, and it's your fault for liking junk food information. And it's such a-- I think it's such a ridiculous way of passing the buck and them saying, "Well, we actually know we can trigger you and get you going all crazy, and we can get you to, to get all angry, and we know you're gonna watch, so we're gonna, we're gonna feed you that junk food." Instead of you're doing some proper, you know, investigative journalism that might take more time, more

Are just turning into MSNBC and CNN to understand where they stand on issues. So, you know, like, hey, it's almost, I mean, it feels like propaganda, like, "You're, we're now updated to let you know that this is the way you should feel about inviting your family over for Thanksgiving," and everyone's like, "Yes, what CNN said." And versus, you know, I, I, I think that that's a, that's the excuse that they use. Look, it comes down to, and I've been in the media world all these years, these people have massive egos, and there's a power that comes with media that they get to influence culture, and they get to, you know, be considered important, and media likes to pat them on the back, saying like, "Yes, we were the ones who were telling the truth. Our job is so hard and tough, and please watch me and never stop watching me." I mean, it's just, it

Have these celebrity hosts, you know, like, you should have journalists that are doing the story that you almost, I, I hate to say it, you want to almost forget their name, but you want to know that, like, you know, versus now that they want to, you know, they're like little late night stars and that, you know, in, in like late night comedies, like, you know, this crappy news source. So I think it's actually worse. I think it's just these people's ego, they know that they have this attention and it's all this, you thirty minute segment, you know, a Don Lemon segment, think about, you know, tons of people all repeating the same crap, you know, but all these people wanna keep their jobs, so I think it's, it's actually worse, it's actually more ego than it is, the content. And, you know, I say that from, you know, I even launched this thing called Some Good News, with a guy named John Krasinski, you know, helped launch that, you know, and, it was all just actually positive stories.

People want to see it, you know, it was something else that was different that was out there, was just actually just positive stories, you know, during what was kind of when COVID started, you know, and that was before George Floyd, and then obviously George Floyd hit, and there was, you know, you know, this was just a short run for kind of this, this little content we made, but people wanna see, see positive stories, people wanna hear different opinions, and it's, it's not in the best interest of, of, of traditional corporate media to do that Stop harassing people like Joe Rogan because he's doing something different, because what, what the truth is, is based on viewership, people would rather watch him than watch all of your news channels. They'd rather watch Mr. Beast on YouTube, or, you know, so actually they're proving you wrong that that isn't what they want to watch. You're, they just happen to be, you know, put there because someone has said that CNN and MSNBC and Fox News for that matter are more important sources than anything else, that they have to be trusted over everybody versus actually people that are providing Why show you that more people wanna watch Joe Rogan than all of CNN?

Do you believe that the problems we're seeing with the media are temporary and that maybe someday it's gonna change back or we might have some kind of return back to competent and skilled journalists, or do you think we're stuck with this problem for some time? I guess, you know, does Bitcoin fix this or does, you know, is this one of those things that it's actually just a human thing?

I'm, I guess I'm hoping for things like, I won't lie, I'm hoping Kyle R you know, I really am, and, and I, and I say that because I would like to see that actually go to trial. I would like to see definitions be actually made, you know, you call this kid who's shown nothing that he's a, you know, white supremacist. I mean, that's a heavy word to use. you know, there are some bad people out there that are white supremacists. what facts do we have that Kyle is that, and, and why did you-- Every media organization say

that, why did they, you They purposely report on false information. I, I, I think that we have, need to have this trial, this almost this legal turning point to sit there and really c-classify, What are we talking about here? Where does actually facts matter, right? Versus, you know, is this just entertainment? Because I don't think Bitcoin unfortunately fixes the news. I don't feel like the news is going to get better. I think it's gonna be considered entertainment. my biggest concern though is the same way that, you know, they were able to kick off half the world, you know, kick off people that had any question that wasn't with the narrative with, you know, COVID, is that not gonna happen to when Bitcoin really starts to do what we all know it's Financial freedom tool for people around the world. You already see it, they say, "Oh, Bitcoin is for terrorists and money launderers and drug dealers," right? And then you're like, "Wow, look at these millions of, unbanked people in El Salvador actually u-utilizing." Well, don't look at that story, you know? I mean, at what point are they gonna start classifying us as false news because we're not doing the narrative from the government? You're watching them do that with just your, you know, information about your own personal body and health when it content that we make. So I think maybe, hopefully, Bitcoin doesn't fix this, but I think that Bitcoin is going to, there's gonna be a media war on Bitcoin, you know, that, that's gonna happen. So I, that's why I believe that it's important to fight, you know, on, every little bit of this, especially with, you know, if we're talking about COVID misinformation, if we're talking about, you know, just reporting new, news, trusted news organizations that are reporting falsely, we need to hold them accountable because they're gonna come for us

Talk about Bitcoin, we don't talk about any of the alt, alt coins, right? We're still gonna be shadow banned on Facebook, we're still gonna be shadow banned on LinkedIn, right? Because they lump all cryptocurrency into one, right? And, you know, we're already seeing that the only reason why, what's odd enough is we do so well on Twitter is because Jack Dorsey's a big supporter of Bitcoin. These other networks, you know, you came by ad, you came by ads to promote a news story on Facebook, right? So, you know, you have a hundred thousand Information, you know? So I'm very afraid of how this censorship is working, which is why, you know, obviously the, the, the corporate media that's willing to play along, you know, they do these things that the government doesn't go after them, you know, they're, they're, they're very much, I think, the, the enemy, and we need to make sure that that's being held accountable. So I don't know if Bitcoin fixes this, but I know that Bitcoin is gonna be a battle, that's going to happen

because

Put out material, whether that's podcasts or articles or whatever, you do have that concern that they're gonna start putting those warnings, right? So for example, on Twitter, if you tweet from the quote-unquote wrong opinion, they'll put the, you know, warning, oh, missing context or what, you know, oh, fact checkers, oh, look what the fact checker said. And so that must also play into your mind as well when you, let's say you're tweeting things out or you're making a YouTube, for the Bitcoin Magazine YouTube channel or on other social Media, that risk of having your content being de-boosted or taken down or having the content warnings or the, the fact-checker warnings.

Yes. No, look, it's, it's a huge problem, and I think it's gonna be a, it's a bigger problem for-- And once again, I'm a, you know, freedom of speech person, so I, I, I want there to be more competition in the space. I want more companies to be providing this content. I think it's gonna be worse for them. At least for us, this is, I think, why we have a bunch of different products that, you know, a magazine is a paid yearly subscription, we have a revenue source, you know, coming in. We have our deep dive, which is, Dylan Leclerc paid product to, to provide more on-chain, you know, on-chain analysis. We have a conference, right, that, that is ticketed, so we have alternative revenue sources. So that's not gonna scare us off from telling the truth on a social network, but we know that, that post's gonna hurt us. Now, where I'm starting to think about is, is it even worth being on some of these other social networks? The problem is we have to, because we have so many, you know, like Facebook will always do everything they can to like hurt our

To shill some other crap. So, it, it's, it's interesting that they come after us for actually reporting real news, but they're not going after fake accounts, right? So we have to be active in these just, just 'cause we don't want our name to be damaged by these fake accounts. We're gonna be held to a much higher standard than the CNNs and the MSNBcs, because every little mistake we make, they're gonna, oh, look, here, they can't be trusted. so we can't allow that to happen. And what I'm hoping

We sold the first Bitcoin magazine, it was, you know, probably cost you two Bitcoin at the time, 'cause the Bitcoin was four bucks, magazine was eight eighty-eight, you know, so, good investment for some. We can do our best to try to be a respected and trusted news source so that when people who have content, I want them to come to Bitcoin Magazine and look at us as a protected platform that we are gonna sit there and say, "Look, sometimes you have opinion pieces, sometimes you have investigative journalism, how could you tell that story with our, our platform?" So that censored or you're not gonna be ghosted, and we have to try to build, you know, we're, we got, our page finally verified by Facebook. We're the only crypto media company to be verified by Facebook, right? Like, and that's a big step. I know it sounds silly, but that took us a year to get, right? So I think it's important for us to build a platform where this freedom of expression can happen, having alternative ways to monetize it, which we're very lucky that we have such a good readership that's willing

to That this can be a place for them to do that, because if they try to do it on their own, they're gonna be, you know, banned and pushed to the, you know, I think, I guess, the garbage can of the internet and not being allowed to be told those stories. So it's important for us to continue to build this media platform to be trusted enough that we can at least have a seat at the table and say, "Why are you banning this? We're actually factual, we're going against the ones, you know, the, the, the fake snow, fake fact And a Bitcoin magazine, it's not just about telling you to buy Bitcoin, it's much bigger than that.

Right. Yeah. And, you know, if, if we all get canceled, at least there's still the print magazine.

I will say this, man, getting canceled's fun. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's worth it. You should, you know, like, there'll, there'll be two different worlds. There'll be the canceled and the un-canceled world. And if you look at what they're canceling everyone for now, you know, like, I would like to say that, think that at a certain time, no one's gonna wanna be un-canceled 'cause those look like the least cool, most annoying, that do absolutely nothing

in

Also going to happen to a lot of us on Twitter sooner or later, given, the way things are going. So, but, nevertheless, definitely, important to hold the ground that you already have on some of these platforms rather than just seeding that turf, rather, so I think it is worthwhile still being there. Obviously, you've got over one and a half million followers on Twitter, last I checked, with Bitcoin Magazine's account, and, I think the Bitcoin, conference account also has a, a, a decent number of followers So, I mean, just all important ways to keep pushing out that material as well. So, one other thing actually, just around, I guess, training of people, like, obviously there's gonna be a lot of new people coming in, what's your thinking there around training for new journalists and writers and other people who are contributing at Bitcoin Magazine, because obviously there'll be a lot of new pub- people coming in, and that, that might raise some of the questions around, okay, how's everyone gonna get trained up quickly, right? Not everyone can be the, the Aaron Van Wyk

You're asking, you're asking a very important question that we're struggling with, which is we're trying to find reporters that, have high, you know, ethics, Have been, are trained to tell a factual story, our talented writers, and then on top of all that, have a deep understanding of Bitcoin. You know, there's not a lot of that, right? And that becomes difficult, but I, I do think what we are allowing to happen is-- and I'm not sure people see it yet, but it's happening, which is Bitcoin Magazine is becoming a place where, People either A, want to tell stories about Bitcoin, who understand it, or, or B, I really wanna dive into it, are coming to work at our company. And I would love to use thirty seconds to say like, if you are a great reporter, if you do wanna do proper, investigative journalism, if-- or if you do wanna help people just even understand the basics of Bitcoin, please come talk to us. We want to hire those people. We want to do more of this content, the training ground for the magazine, which would be, I think, our, our banner product, That's proper investigative journalism, like, you know, you're gonna be held to a much higher standard critique versus maybe someone who's writing some of our web articles or maybe some more of our video content shows. I, I think that it's exciting to actually also grab people that are actually utilizing this. So let's not make the mistake that we're going for the traditional academic reporting crowd, right, and missing out on the people who are actually utilizing it. this, because to become a reporter, essentially, if you're at least telling a factual story and it's your experience, you don't need to be, you know, you don't need to be verified by the guild, but we just need to hold you-- we just need to make sure that we're Properly fact-checking it and it is an accurate story, and, I think that, that's gonna become difficult for us to obviously grow that, but the nice thing is, you know, proof of work, we're watching people who've been in this industry for a while now, who've done good stuff, and, you know, we wanna bring them into hopefully a bigger, bigger platform, so the more that we see people actually putting content out there, We're identifying those and, and trying to bring them into, the company.

Excellent. Well, I think that's, we're pretty much running up to time at this point. So Mike, where can people find you? And obviously, if they wanna get the print magazine, what's the best way for them to get that?

Well, you know, bitcoinmagazine dot com, you can go on our store there. you'll be able to find the, the magazine, and obviously if you look all around the internet, we are constantly giving discount codes of twenty-one percent, so, you know, please utilize those, and subscribe to the magazine. I think it'll be something that you'll quite enjoy. you can find us everywhere, Bitcoin Magazine, and, me, Mike Germano, you can find me on, because I was part of the first wave of social media back when you used to use your real name, and I don't have a fun one

Any conversation, anyone who, who has questions would love to reach out. And once again, if you wanna help us build freedom and facts and, and, and to help with hyperbitcoinization, and you wanna help us with that fight, we'd love to talk to you.

Fantastic, Mike. Well, I've enjoyed chatting with you, and I think it's a really important thing that's going on here with going against fiat media.

Yes, let's go against Fiat Media. Well, thank you, and thank you for doing your part for all these years of actually providing information to people. It's, it's, it's truthfully, it's people like you that are getting people to open their eyes a little bit and wanna dig in more and, and, you know, your commitment over- Gosh, how many years of actually doing this and showing off different voices, you know, people like us wouldn't be here if it wasn't people like you, so thank you for all the, the time, energy, and effort you put in over these years of helping tell these stories.

Fantastic, thanks, Mike.

Thank you.

So I hope you enjoyed the show, and I wonder what your thoughts are. Do you believe that Bitcoin will change the way media operates, and is this idea of going against fiat media a valid one, or do you think that to some extent we're just stuck with these things

And I'll see you in the citadels.