Should You Move to El Salvador?

Hi everyone, and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast, brought to you by Bold, where you can buy, and store, and sell your Bitcoin. For American listeners, over at getbold.io. Joining me today is Roman Martinez and Lexi. Now, Roman is also known as Chimbera in the Bitcoin community, but, Roman And Lexi, welcome to the show.

Thank you, thanks for having us.

Thank you. And so as I understand, you guys are, you know, working on, El Salvador real estate and, I guess, helping people who are either new to the country or maybe, returning expats who wanna buy real estate. So, do you wanna just g-give us a, you know, a quick one minute overview, what are you guys doing, over at Good Life Real Estate?

Sure, I can give you, I can give you a background. so we started the real estate company over three years ago. obviously we saw a lot of interest in El Salvador at that point, we're seeing even more interest now. we offer-- the, the company is And we offer traditional real estate, real estate services, we are a, a, a traditional brokerage, but we've also developed a lot of services for people who are El Salvador curious. the market in El Salvador, the real estate market isn't very straightforward, especially when you compare it to the US or Canada. and so, you know, we, we think it's really important that you're working with people that you can trust and really understand what's happening on the ground here. so yeah, that's a little bit about us.

Fantastic. And, just for listeners who are, you know, haven't been to El Salvador recently, right? Like now, as, you know, last time I was there was, I believe, November 2022, right? For adopting Bitcoin back in '22, I missed it last year. I'm sure there's been a lot of development since. So can you guys tell us a little bit about how things have changed over the last year or so?

Yeah, go ahead. You

want me, you want me to start? Okay. Yeah. I guess you can add on, add on to anything I say. I mean, you know, since 2022, a lot has, a lot has changed. Also, a lot has remained the same. I mean, it's still a really wonderful country. the people here are extremely welcoming. but, you know, as, as far as changes that we've seen, improvements in infrastructure, development projects, we've seen a lot of government regulations that are

Is coming here, you know, there's a zero tax law for tech companies, there's, incentives for, for taller buildings, you know, in San Salvador. So, we're seeing a lot of, we're seeing a lot of improvements and a lot of excitement, and I think it's only, only still just the beginning.

Yeah, and, and adding something to, to that, Stefan is like, in the last two years what we have been seeing also is like, more bitcoiners, you know, more people like are interesting to come and check El Salvador to visit for the first time. A lot of people have been making El Salvador their plan B, you know, also diversifying a little bit their, their investments, you know? And, and also- So we're seeing like families, individuals just not coming on vacation, but coming to live here, you know? And I think that's, that's had been So amazing seeing in the last three years, you know, September, last September, we were celebrating the, the third anniversary that, Bitcoin as a legal tender here in El Salvador, and And it have been an, an unstop, you know, the number of people showing up, some moving here, someone that want investing here, companies moving here, like, like, like, like to say, but it's, it's, it's, it's amazing, it's, it's an unstop, you know?

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the kinds of people who are moving there, right? I, I presume there's some expats, I presume there's some, let's say Salvadoran diaspora who are around the world and now they're coming back, and I guess maybe tourists who came there and then they decided, yeah, they wanna buy a place there or something. So do you wanna just give us, some ideas on who are the typical profiles of customers you're dealing with there?

Yeah, I would say it's a little bit of a mix of everything that you We certainly have people from all around the globe. That is one thing that I'm constantly like, I don't, excited by and sometimes surprised by. You know, we have clients from New Zealand, from Australia, from Europe, from the US, from Canada, from really all over the world, and a lot of them are looking for, like Chimbara said, plan B, or to relocate their family. Definitely Bitcoiners, a lot of, investors that are now coming here and seeing a lot of potential in the country, on- Entrepreneurs and, and like you said, the, the diaspora, the Salvadoran diaspora, a lot of them moving back to El Salvador, and looking for either a vacation home or to permanently relocate back to El Salvador

Yeah, and so I'm curious if you had to, let's try to break that down in terms of motivation, right? Because there's different motivations, right? Some people could be looking at it from an investment perspective, and that could be they're looking at capital appreciation or they might be thinking rental income. There could be people, like, Chimbera mentioned, like a plan B, right? It's a strategic reason you're thinking, "I wanna have a plan B location." And then otherwise, people who actually, it's their Plan A, they want to go and live there as their primary home. So what would you say are the main motivations of people, like as an example, you know, there might be people who are moving for more safety or, you know, what, what would you say are, what, what are the, what's the driver for them?

I would say a majority of the, the calls that I have with clients are about, i-i-are, are people that are a little bit scared about what's happening in their home countries, to be honest. They're looking for a plan B, so that could turn into a plan A for them. So that's one, that's one major reason and one consistency through most, you know, one consistent point that I find through most of, the clients that we have interested in, in investing here. It's more for, for safety, for security, if, If things go off the rails, as a lot of people think they are in, in the US or Canada or Europe, then they have a, a place that they can come and they can live and they can take care of their family. we definitely have, I would say like the second, the second reason, would be for Investment purposes, right? Like a place that they can have as a vacation home, but that they can also rent and generate rent, rental income when they're not, when they're not using it. So to come, enjoy El Salvador, but also, yeah, of course, make, make money, with their real estate investment. I don't know, Chimber, if you have any other points to add to that.

Yeah, something probably this is more from the Bitcoin, Bitcoiners perspective, like a lot of people wanna be part of what El Salvador is doing, you know? Like very often I sit with people that say, "I don't, I don't need to do it, I don't need to buy a house here, I don't need investment here, to do an investment here, but I want to do it, because it's, it's, it's in my way, it's my way to- To support what the government is doing, what El Salvador is doing. El Salvador is the first Bitcoin country, and I think that is a,

a dream for many people, right, Steph? Like you, you have been a Bitcoiner for many years, and I think, like how many people we know around the globe that are expecting, we're dreaming that one day there will be the first Bitcoin country where you can come and live in a Bitcoin standard, where Bitcoin is a legal tender, where, the- They're not popular games in Bitcoin, you know, and, and that is, one of the main reason that El Salvador is attracting so many people from all over the world coming here and buying a house with Bitcoin, you know, that you don't need to go from Bitcoin to dollars and then making a, a real estate, investment and, and, and the real estate investment had property taxes, it came with responsibilities. That, that's another reason that El Salvador Also don't have property taxes, you know, a lot of people that are real estate investors in USA, Canada, like if you see how much property taxes they pay in California, it's crazy, right? When they come in here and they say, "No property taxes in El Salvador? Wow, that's, that's amazing." Also, El Salvador is, one of the country that foreign people can own properties, you know? That means the na- the, the tit- your name is in the title of the property. property. So in many countries like Mexico, even Guatemala, Costa Rica, some places, I guess Nicaragua, you just do this big leasing for hundred years and, you know, but you never owns the property, you know? So- And also I, one of the reason that a lot of clients of us end up buying properties here is because this is, I think it's more from the pers-human perspective, you know, that you wanna wake up in, in a place that you're excited for the future, you know, that you see a future. You're like, you, you wake up every day and you're like, "Wow, this is another day. I'm, I'm, I'm excited. I'm building this." And like Lexi said, most of the clients Clients that are coming from Europe, United States, Canada, they're like, "Well, I have real estate in, in, in, in Canada, but pay property taxes. I'm not excited for the future, so I'm willing now to liquidate some assets there and put in here in El Salvador, in a new market, you know? Because a lot of these people, the, the reality is that have-- are used to investing in, early stage like companies, you know? And many of these people approach El Salvador as- As a, as an startup, as a early stage startups, you know, and, and they see great potential and great opportunities to grow, you know?

Yeah. now Chimber, you mentioned the legal tender aspect, so I think it would be great if you could give an update for listeners as well on, you know, there's been a lot of back and forth on where can you actually spend your Bitcoin, right? So I guess people have said, okay, if you're in El Zonte, maybe parts of San Salvador, and, is it Berlin El Salvador, which is another of the country, Bitcoin is sort of seen as, oh, that's, that's tourist money, or it's kind of for the rich, wealthy, you know, outsiders. I'm curious your perspective, is that true or not, or, you know, what's the, what's the on the ground reality for people?

No, that's a good, that's a good question because I think Bitcoin adoption is moving forward definitely, but, sometimes people want things happen really quickly, you know? And education took time, you know? And one of the, one of the reason- Son, it's because we're learning in different ways, you know. It took time, you know. I, I tell people when people complain about Bitcoin adoption in El Salvador, I say like, "They can just become a legal tender three years ago." And I ask the question like, "When was the first time you, you hear for the first time about Bitcoin?" And everyone's like, "Oh, five years, like, and how long it pass until you really get it and you really get into Bitcoin, you know?" And for a few people are like, "Oh, I hear I hear about Bitcoin today and I'm buying Bitcoin tomorrow, you know, it's like for most of the Bitcoiner, it's, it's a path that they have been doing, you know, and, and most of the people say, "I hear about Bitcoin two thousand twelve, two thousand thirteen, but I buy Bitcoin two thousand seventeen, " you know, so it took five years, six years, so I think for Salvador is the same, you know? A good thing is that there are like, like now there are more organizations that we are focused on Bitcoin education, helping the Bitcoin, the Bitcoin education in the country, you know, like, my first Bitcoin, Plan B, Kubo Plus, No Nation, Bitcoin Beach, Lina is also helping with education, like there are so many players like trying to help with the- With the Bitcoin education, you know, just mention it like a project that I don't know if you hear on Twitter, but we were posting that. Last year, we, we did a pilot with the Minister of Education, my first Bitcoin and Bitcoin Beach, we're partnering with the Minister of Education to train public teacher from public schools, and we're training around hundred and fifty teachers last year, and this hundred and fifty teacher went back to their school and they were training, the students in their school, so they're training around two thousand five hundred students, and this year we're training, around four hundred teachers. And these four hundred teacher, and in training this year around seven thousand students from the public schools, you know? So we were having this meeting like last week with Stacey and the Minister of Education, you know, trending the numbers, making the plan for the next year, and, you know, when I, when people say, "Tell me another..." Another country that the Minister of Education is sitting, like hearing from Bitcoiners trying to make the, the plan for, for, for planning Bitcoin education for the next year in the public school. No one, no country is doing this, you know? But of course, one of the thing that is happening is that places like El Santé that you mentioned, like Bitcoin Beach, like Berlin in the Montains, like Punta Mago, like the Bitcoin Island in La Perilla. are working because there are tourism and, and it's really important what is happening with Bitcoin tourism, you know, people showing from all over the world that wanna pay in Bitcoin and And that is, that is amazing, and it's one of the, it's kind of one of the way that the countries are having Bitcoin incomes, you know? So, and it's one of the reason why in places that isn't, there isn't true Bitcoin, true yet, people don't see benefit yet, you know, from Bitcoin, but it's just a matter of time, you know? And I can tell you, we have people here that living in a Bitcoin standard, that earning Bitcoin, that spending Bitcoin That's safe in Bitcoin, you can do it, you know? We personally, we pay most of the things with Bitcoin, you know, salaries, bills, food, service, whatever you can imagine, if you wanna live paying everything with Bitcoin, it's possible, you know?

Yeah, and that, I mean, that's great. Like, I think that's really the dream for a lot of, you know, hardcore, long-time Bitcoiners to be able to earn and spend everything in Bitcoin. Obviously, depending on where you live, that's not always possible, but I'm curious then on the, you know, property investment side, are you seeing a lot of your customers who actually want to live in, let's say, in those Bitcoin Harbors or maybe they're buying property a little bit outside of those Harbors? I'm curious, you know, what are you seeing?

I think, definitely like a lot of people have been attracting for Bitcoin Beach, like Bitcoin Beach have been coming, you know, as the Grand Zero, I think this place will go down in history as the Grand Zero from, for Bitcoin Circle economies, you Or showing in paid away in many, in many, in many ways, right? So Bitcoin Beach have been becoming that place, 'cause it's on the beach, it's really close to the airport, it's really close to the city, you know? But of course, Bitcoin Beach have been becoming like also the most expensive place to, to, to buy a real estate, you know? And I think that opened the places to like a lot of people now, like, are living in Berlin That is more, more, less expensive even to find rentals, you know, for bitcoiners, you know, that are trying to make their way. It's just, it's just depending, like, we have different peoples, like, coming to Osapu, people like, that are like in different stage of life, you know, successful entrepreneurs, that are retired, that wanna have a house in Bitcoin Beach, beachfront, you know, live in the life, and we also have people that are coming to Osapu that are still working, you know, they're working remote that still is staying sad, and for them it doesn't make sense to make a big investment in real estate, but of course they wanna live in a place like Berlin where the rent is more cheaper or São Salvador or some other areas that now are getting like, Traction, you know? And one of the things that I, I tell people is that O'Sullivan is really small, right, Stefan, like for us living ten, fifteen minutes from the beach now seems so far, you know, but for most of the people living one hour away from the beach is close, you know? And

they're happy to just do a drive if they wanna go to the beach.

E-exactly, and that's opened the, that's what's happening now, you know, and a lot of people that come and say like, "I like..." Double Salvador, but the beach is super hot for me, you know, I want more cooler, a, a cooler weather, so we have more time. We have like places like thirty-five minutes away from, from Bitcoin Beach, you know, one hour away from, from the beach, that are like higher elevation, you know, fifteen hundred meters above the sea, two thousand meters above the sea, where at night it's cooler, probably you don't need AC. So, and it's more cheaper, you know? So I think a Salvador is, is, is getting- Like all type of people, you know? So I don't know, Lexi, what you see it like?

Yeah, I mean, I think that El Salvador is attracting a lot of Bitcoiners, and of course, they wanna live where they can use their Bitcoin, for Bitcoin is a part of their everyday. But I think also, you know, when you think about relocating to a place, you also have lifestyle needs and, and wants and that aren't related to Bitcoin necessarily, you know? Like, do you wanna live in a warm place or a cool place or- Or do you want a lot of privacy, or do you want to live in a place where there's a lot going on socially? So those are all of the things that really come into play aside from just Bitcoin, and, and those are the questions that we really make sure to ask our clients because they come want-- our clients come and they're interested in El Salvador, but again, we have to ask them like, what kind of living environment do you want? That's super important.

And also, just adding something really quickly 'cause I think it's important is that, well, like you say Different needs, you know, everyone want accomplishing different things here in Osapu and it's like we have families, you know, if you come with kids and you want your kids go to the school, definitely you wanna be more close to the, to the city, you know, because the, the, the education is there, the, I will say the, the healthcare is there, like now the Osapu is like everything that you need is there, you know, also from the business perspective, like meetings, lawyers, like Architects, like everything is, is, is there. So it's based on that need that we advise people, like if we understanding like What that means for you investing here, we're suggesting, you know, like this, this could be the best place for you to live. But then if you only wanna do an investment, that's another thing, you know?

Yeah. So while we're talking about- Location and where people are doing things and how people are doing things from a real estate perspective. can you guys offer any comment on whether people are coming in and they're looking for, you know, a ready-made place or they're looking for maybe to, let's say, buy and renovate, or maybe they're looking to buy a, a plot of land and build a house there? What, what are your, what are some of your, I guess, thoughts that you-- and what, what are you seeing people do?

I can, I can answer this one, Chimbara. Again, we're seeing a mix of, of all of those things, Stefan. Like we see people, with different, with different needs when it comes to, like, exactly what they want to invest in. I would say one thing to understand is that the momentum and the excitement for El Salvador, is doesn't necessarily match the inventory that we have in the country. so, so, you know, like supply doesn't necessarily meet demand. So now we're seeing a lot of pro-- like pre-construction projects, which are really exciting to people, especially Bitcoiners that run a certain payments, have a certain payment schedule in mind. but yeah, I think, I think, I think right now El Salvador is catching up with the demand, and a lot of people would like to come and have a turnkey solution for sure. I think that's the easiest way to do it, or you move into, or you buy a unit in a condominium development where you know when you're not here, you're not gonna have to deal with all the maintenance that a single family home would require in like a gated community. And so again, it comes down to like, what are their needs? We have, we have people coming for everything, and I think there is something for, for everyone, but there is a- You know, we're going through this, this growth spurt in El Salvador, so it also requires people to understand like what's, what's a reality of what they can find right now.

Yeah. and while we're on the topic of, you know, going to El Salvador, setting up, I'm curious if you guys have any tips on, you know, what are some common pitfalls or, let's, you know, gringo traps or whatever we're calling them, what are some common things that people come and they don't, they don't quite understand how it works

there? No You know, like it's like, how you say in, in, in some ways the Wild Wild West. How, how you pronounce Alex?

The Wild Wild West. Yeah,

right, yeah. So it's like there are not like people tending to say that real estate is not like, that you don't need a license to be a realtor, so kind of everyone can be a realtor, but if you wanna work in real estate, you need to have a company, like we have a real estate company that we- We, you know, we pay taxes, we're regulated, we, we, we like, we, we offering service, we do facturas like, you know, but, a lot of people, Mike, Mike used to touch this, like Mike Peterson, you know, he, he, he give this advice to people like, "Yeah, real estate in Osorno, like a lot of people thinking that they can do it in, in their own, that they can come and, and, and find your place, you know, find your land, and, and you can do But you are exposed, what we, what we have been seeing is that, well, first, why we ended building Good Life, it was because for me being one of the co-founder of Bitcoin Beach, like I start asking, a lot of people start asking me like for a lot of help, you know, like, "Oh, I wanna buy a house, I wanna invest in land, can you help me?" And I start helping friends, you know, and, and but what I start seeing is that A lot of people start taking advantage of, you know, selling the properties with overpriced, you know, that, that was one really common thing, you know? And also a few friends of mine happened that they get scammed, you know, that they ended up buying a property, the seller didn't have the, the, the right documents, the titles, you know, or they say they have a POA from the real owner, you know, and, and, and they ended up buying the property and then- There is a big problem to trying to get your money back, you know. So I think those come to my mind, you know, that real estate is about trust, you know, and for me I, I approach Real stay in the way that I, I approach Bitcoin, you know, we, we as a Bitcoiner, realtors are third part, right? Like, and Bitcoiners hate third parts, you know? But, and, and it's, and it's the reality, you know? but you gotta add value to the equation, you know? When you add value to the equation, you know, I think everyone don't, don't really- I don't care to pay, but if I'm getting value from this service, you know, and this is where, we advise people, you know, working with someone that you trust, the prices in El Salvador are, there is the expectation price, you know, on what El Salvador is doing, what El Salvador will do, and then there is the market price, you know, and most of the properties, a lot of people are trying to get this, expectation price, the price on- Based on, on the expectation, you know, and you see like properties that are, are asking like one million dollars for, vacant, vacant lot in, in one area that I know how much they pay like two years ago, you know? and if you don't have someone that advise you on On, on, on those, on, on the price, it's easier to convince someone and say, "Oh, no, that's a good price. You should pay it, because in five years, that land will work more." But for me, real estate works like, "I know if in five years it will work more, I want that appreciation on land, and I'm buying now, you know?" So I think that's, that's, that's one of the most common thing that I see like just

people paying, overpaying for real estate. Basically.

Yeah, if they don't have someone advising them in the, in the right, like market price, you know?

Yeah, and I think that, that's true. You do, you do have situations like that. at the same time, you have clients, you have people that are coming here and they expect to pay thirty thousand dollars for an oceanfront property. So there's, you know, you have to kind of meet in the middle.

Right. Yeah, it's about sort of setting the expectation and kind of giving them a realistic ballpark of, okay, this is about how much Property. I see. and then, yeah, go, go on, Chibero.

No, I, I, often I talk to like that in the, in the end, we're kind of like financial advisors for real estate investment here, you know? 'Cause that's, that's, that's what it is, you know, when you're working with clients and you told them, being honest and say like, you know, because we also see like some people coming and say like, "Hey, this is the property that I want, this is like a clear- property that I wanna build my house, my dream house, and I don't care if it's a little bit overpriced, but our responsibility is to tell clients, you know, and then You decide because real estate is about that, you know, location, location, location, right? And s-s-s-if you wanna pay, you know, there is a little bit overpricing, but you say, "Hey, It's okay, I'm happy with this. You know, we see that too, you know?

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That's a good question. You can, you can take it, Lexi, as his, yeah, I think,

yeah, I think.

Your story.

No, I mean, I think this is why Chimber and I make a really good team, to be honest, because he has a really great understanding, of, you know, what's, what's happened in El Salvador and the changes over the years and the value of property, and I think I have a North American perspective as far as quality goes, and so I think that, you know, it's definitely changing and it

probably the pre-construction projects that we're seeing now are the highest quality. if you're looking for something that, like, already exists in the market, it might be an older home that needs renovation, and then you need to make sure that you're working with the right team. and you need to make sure that also the project is very properly managed so that you're getting, you know, the, the even as far as like, where does the light switch go in the room? You want the light switch to be when you walk in the room, right? So you can The correct way. but I think it's getting better. I think that we're, and, and, you know, it's, you know, we're seeing, we're seeing developers coming from, from other parts of the world outside of El Salvador, which is interesting because they can collaborate with Salvadorians here, and so you can get that, quality that- You know, that, that a North American perspective would demand.

Yeah, I was also curious as well, that, let's say cultural and social norms that a Westerner might have or maybe around things like, as an example, noise, right? Like you might move into an area and then sort of not realize, "Oh, actually, the, there's kind of parties going on nearby, late night, that kind of..." Maybe if you could explain a little bit on that as well, like just so that people have the right expectation there.

Yeah, there's, I mean, if you're gonna be moving to El Salvador, you need to understand the local culture here, that's one thing. and how do they do things here? And then how do you fit into that? And what do you-- what adjustments do you need to make, for you to be comfortable in this place? And, you know, there's- you know, we have the veggie trucks here in El Zonte that are passing like multiple times a day, and so if you're gonna be in the heart of El Zonte, you have to also understand that those things are normal, and so maybe it's gonna be a little bit louder, you're gonna have roosters in the morning or things, right? So those are expectations that we set with our clients, like, here's the, here's, here's the understanding of this area, take it or leave it. but yeah, I think you make a really good point When you move here, and, and over time, when you commit to living in El Salvador, for me, it was a big adjustment, and, and it's changed a lot since I first moved here. I moved here five years ago, and when I first came, it was much different than it is now. Yeah. but it does take- So actually, Lexi,

on that, I'm curious, what, what for you, what were some of the big adjustments? I mean, you're a Westerner, I presume, so what were the big adjustments for you?

Yeah, I

District in Manhattan to moving to this small surf town. I think one of the things is access, like this is changing too, but like you don't necessarily have the access at your fingertips that you have in a place like Manhattan, right? Even for like shipments, like, and we don't get, we don't easily get Amazon shipments, for example, or any, any shipments here in El Salvador is a bit of a challenge. So, you have to, like, for me that was a little bit hard at first. Then I also realized a lot of the stuff that I thought I needed in And that is refreshing. You're like, okay, I actually don't need that thing, and I don't need this thing, and I don't need that service. And, you know, I have instead, I can wake up with the sunrise, I go to, I go to bed with the sunset. So there's, there's pros and cons, and, and, but yeah, that was, I think, one of the first things for me was just the, like, the adjustment of like, what do I have access to?

and I think, like, yeah, like Making sure that you're, you're, you have patience for certain things, like for example, things can move a lot slower here. I think that people, you know, business people who are coming to El Salvador to invest will understand that like lawyers can be slow and restaurant service can be slow, and so you kind of have to have patience for that, but yeah, those are, those are some of the things.

Yeah, and look, I, in, in fairness, I think it's, you know, it's a good point to say that, you know, whenever you go to a If you come with like this kind of very high Western expectation, you might be disappointed. And so you sort of-- there's an adjustment period, and there's a period of, you know, you sort of have to learn to adjust a little bit to how locals live, to some extent, right?

Yeah, and I really think that coming to El Salvador requires an open mind, and if you have that, you're gonna have a really wonderful experience here. That's how it was for me. Like, I noticed things when I first-- some of the things I, I experienced were a little bit I'm coming from Manhattan like super fast pace, your head is down, you're moving quickly from one place to the next versus here in El Salvador, you're walking down the street and people expect that you'll just like stop on a whim and have a fifteen minute conversation with them over coffee, and sometimes that's a hard adjustment when you're used to doing things very quickly, but then if you have an open mind and you are like open to these new experiences and ways of doing things, I think it can actually really shape you to be a better human in the end. So, you know, it's, El Salvador, if you're coming from the US, but it can be a really, really, really, really wonderful thing.

You know, you know, Stefan, and, and I would love maybe Lexi is the best person to explain this, but, one of the, like a lot of people thinking that countries like El Salvador are poor countries, right? That the level of life is like really poor, you know? And until you come here and you see it yourself, is that you, a lot of people get, you know, like their surprise, you know, like, "Wow, the quality of life here! " Yeah, it's more simple, but it's really rich, you know, in many ways, right? And some of the questions that we have very often is, "What about doctors? What about, is, if I feel bad, you know, they help her? " "What about food? " You know, "I used to have like good food, what about, can I find good food in Salvador? " Like clients ask like this, you know, like question like, " I'd like really want everything that I find in the USA in Casco, you know? So I would love that Lexi can touch a little bit about that because that's, that's what most of the people are asking, you know?

Yeah, I, I think that is a, that's, that's a question we get from a lot of people, rightfully so, the access to medical care or the, the school system, you know, different things that Chimbera just mentioned. And the nice thing about El Salvador, and especially living on the coast in El Salvador, is that you So if you are a surfer, you wanna be near the beach, you can still do that and have that lifestyle, but be very close to a city center with all of your, your, your basic needs, which is different than a place like Nicaragua or Costa Rica, where if you wanna live in a surf town, you have to like fly into the main city and then you have to, you know, take a, you have to drive two hours and you have to take a small plane to another place. So here it's like you just get, you, you fly into San Salvador, you

yeah, the private healthcare system here, and I, I preface with private, but the private healthcare system here is phenomenal. Like I, when I was living in the US, I- There's no way that you're gonna be on a text message with your doctor, you know, or get same day service if you need it. And here, for example, I can, you know, I, I actually had a baby here in El Salvador, and, I had my baby in a hospital here, and, the experience was really wonderful. So, you know, and, and when I needed an ultrasound the last minute, I could get it, or if I had just a, a question and I was nervous about something, I could message my doctor and they would respond right

for even healthcare services.

And I'm curious as well, because I think there'll be listeners who are curious, what's the English speaking level like, or is it like you really need Spanish to properly integrate and get around and get by?

You don't need Spanish, but it's great to learn Spanish if you're gonna move to El Salvador. you know, I'm, I still, I'm not, I'm not, fluent, you know, like I can have, I can have basic conversations, I can have conversations and get by for sure with Spanish. but yeah, it's not necessary, you know, especially with like a, a lot of the translation tools and things that we have now. but I think it's a part of the richness of the experience if you take on the language as well.

Yeah. No, and, and, and like, like Lexi said, you know, when you

You know, we have a good friend of us, Wayne. Wayne is, he moved from San Francisco, he purchased a property here in Santa, and he didn't speak Spanish when he moved here, you know? And now, in the last year and a half, he's been like, "Uh, I need to learn Spanish, " you know? And now he's like really, like fluent in Spanish, and he's having a blast, you know, talking to everyone, you know? And he's like, "You can see how, The perspective change, you know, because once you, you speak the language, like, you can connect even more with people and that's what's happening everywhere in the, in, in around the world, you know? It's like, like there are a lot of people that doesn't speak English, you know? So it's, it's hard even if they wanna communicate, you know, it's hard. But once you pass that barrier, you can have like meaningful conversations with everyone, you know? And, and there is a big expert con- Community that is just growing, you know, but it's also, there are people like that, but a lot of people, it's, it's good to have that mix, you know, of expats, but also be with the, with the reality, you know, with the people from, from, from, from the country. And I, I really think like when you move to a country and you, at least you try to learn the language, you show respect also for, for, for people, right? And people appreciate it.

Yeah. Yeah. Spanish is an interesting one as well, because it's one of those, let's say, a lot of people around the world speak that, right? It's five hundred million native Spanish speakers, maybe six hundred once you include second language Spanish speakers. So it's kind of, you get a lot of bang for buck if you learn Spanish in that sense. So that's actually a useful thing. but yeah, interesting for people to know exactly how much they need to know to sort of get by. let's chat a little bit on the prices and

You looking for, but if you could sort of give people a rough idea like what kind of prices people might expect to pay for, you know, an apartment or a, let's say, a two or three bedroom house, you know, if you could just give like a rough idea for people. Like, and yeah, yeah,

I can, I can give you a rough idea of prices. for the pre-construction projects here in El Zonte for a, For some of those units, you're seeing like a, a two-bedroom unit for four hundred and forty-five thousand, that's for a second line from the beach, you know, like very, very close beach access, and in El Zante, which we say is like the Malibu of El Salvador, right? So you see higher prices here. but we have, you know, we have oceanfront properties in different parts of El Salvador for three hundred thousand dollars, that's, that's for a vacant lot, sometimes you can find something with construction on it. if Looking in the city in San Salvador, you're gonna see prices between two hundred and fifty thousand and, I mean, honestly, multi-million, you know, depending on the, the type of home and the location in the gated community. So it's a mix, and, and the prices really depend very much on the exact location in El Salvador because it can vary dramatically from one town to the next in a matter of like thirty minutes from one, one place to another.

Gotcha. And, yeah, and then maybe if you have any idea on like rental- Rental yields or rough, for those who are interested in listening from like an investment perspective, what kind of like rental yields or capital appreciation, if you could sort of talk through what you've seen there?

Yeah, I don't have like concrete numbers to share because it kinda depends on, it depends on the, the, the project, as far as appreciation or what kind of rental income you're gonna see. I think for like a, a two-bedroom, a two-bedroom apartment in El Zonte right now, maybe you could get, well, let's see. I, I can talk about Wave House, that's a new project that just closed, it's the first project of its kind, and that's one, that one is in El Zonte, it's nineteen condominium units.

You're seeing around three hundred and fifty a night, for the oceanfront units, you're seeing, I think, around six hundred a night. So, you know, that gives you an idea of in like a nicer luxury building, what kind of, rental income you can see.

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Yeah, it, it definitely, it's, it's more expensive than it was two years ago, five years ago.

The appreci- appreciation that would have happened in a, in a, in a steady, in a more secure place, you know, over the years would be like, it all happened at once in El Salvador, right? Like all the appreciation happened kind of at once in a small amount of time. The country is safe, there's a lot of opportunity here, there's a lot of growth here, there's a lot of hope here, and so the prices match, match that kind of development, you know? And so people say like, "Man, I should have, you know I could have got that property for X price, and it's like, yeah, but you didn't invest five years ago, and why was that? Because the country wasn't safe, and it was a lot riskier. And so, you know, I think you get the price that you come in at,

sort of like that point. And I mean, obviously most people listening to this are Bitcoiners, so they're obviously gonna be like, trying to maximize the Bitcoin and only, you know, maybe wait for a bull cycle to kinda buy a property, that kinda thing, like I'm presum

You know, a lot of listeners are coming from, so they're probably thinking, okay, maybe during a bull cycle, take some and, you know, buy a plan B or this kind of thing. That, that might be something, that might be the, the way people are thinking.

We do have people that just start like, getting familiar with the real estate market here in Osapu, but they're really honest and they say like, "I have like four Bitcoin ready to purchase a property in Osapu, but I'm not doing now, you know, like, I you know, it's just everyone have that, that, that price level that everyone will be happy. But I think at, I think at a hundred thousand K per Bitcoin, we will see a lot of people, you know, liquidating Bitcoin to buy their home, buy their land here in Osapula, you know, and, and I think once the price of Bitcoin start goes up, we'll start, we, we will start seeing more and more Bitcoiners, buying. I think real estate, a-and the fact is, Stefan, is that if you're a Bitcoiner, you don't wanna buy real estate in many places, but what I'm seeing is that a lot of people wanna buy it here in Salvador, you know, for what? For what we're presenting, right? So that's, that's cool.

Yeah, and as you mentioned earlier, that is a thing. In different countries, you, you can't always get-- Now, I've heard this explained as freehold versus leasehold, right? So in some countries you can get freehold, in others you can't, and you can only, as a foreigner, you can only buy the leasehold. and so this is an interesting aspect where, as you mentioned, you can own it and it's zero percent property tax, so you get to see the capital

component to it, of course, you know, every Bitcoiner has to make that choice of, you know, how much of their, what percent of their stack are they willing to, you know, carve off and get a, but at the same time, if it's a place that you wanna live in or a place that you know, you wanna raise your family, that's, certainly, something interesting. so yeah, I guess any other kind of, let's, let's chat a little bit on real estate trends right now. We were touching on some

Pre-construction, so I guess that's, that's like equivalent of like off-plan, you know, purchasing, let's say.

do you, do you see that trend and let's say this pre-constru- I guess what you were getting at also is that the pre-construction, properties and builds will be more modern and let's say have, you know, the correct electricity and water and sort of, those aspects, built, more to the, the higher level standard, I presume. the- versus if you are buying something that was ready-made and it was completed ten years ago. That's kind of the idea you were getting at, right? Yeah,

yeah, yeah, exactly. it's because, I think, the transformation that El Salvador is having in the last five years is, is, is so big, you know, that to be honest, we weren't ready for this big real estate market, you know, coming to El Salvador. So, and you see most of the houses in, on the- Beaches, here were homes for, from people from San Salvador, you know, from the capital that used to, used to come on the weekends, so for them, it's not their, their main like home living where they spend everyday, so most of these houses, they don't have hot water, they're like in bad conditions, you know, they just come to spend like a day, couple hours on the weekend, so, and And, and the other thing is that there is, there is not enough inventory for, for everyone that is coming, you know? I wanna beachfront properties, and we used to joke a-about it, that beachfront properties are like Bitcoin, no one is doing more, you know? So the pre-construction project are, are allowing people, you know, that to have, probably not a whole house, but to have an apartment ocean view, you know, and, and that is what's happening now.

Yeah. I guess in, in terms of, where things are going, where, where you see it going, I presume, you know, the, as we were talking about, it seems like it's mostly an optimistic attitude around what's happening in the country in terms of, you know, the safety of the country, the development of the country. Do you see any other, I guess, trends around real estate and how it's gonna, let's say, professionalize? Like, are there elements that will, let's say, copy over from, the American real estate market?

I mean, I, I think so. I think, if the market demands it, it will come. You know, we don't have an escrow service right now in El Salvador. I think that will come. We don't have an MLS in El Salvador, it probably will come. You know, like these things as the, as the, market matures, as the clients demand it, I think that these types of services that you see in, in the US and Canada will become more standard here.

And, yeah. So we were, we were chatting a little bit about

Yeah, if you could sort of spell out what are some areas that you think are interesting for different expats, depending on, you know, what they wanna see, if you could maybe spell out some of the areas.

I think it's, definitely Sur City One, that is one of the project that the government called, that is, if you never been here, but it goes like from La Libertad to Misata, including Bitcoin Beach, El Tunco, La Libertad, you know, all these areas called Sur City one is, is, is one of the most, I would say, hardest, hardest real estate here now. Also, there is in the east is Sur City two. There is another project that the government is launching, they're putting a lot of money to infrastructure, you know, making the roads and everything, so we're seeing a lot of interest there. Also, La Union Bitcoin City, you know, the government is building like massive project in, in- Infrastructure, including like, an airport, a new airport there, you know? And that's where Bitcoin City will be, and a lot of people wanna get into the real estate market there as well. And of course, the city, you know, the, the San Salvador, the capital is, I would say is the, like, for, for a lot of people, it's, it makes sense, you know, a lot of people prefer to buy maybe like a small apartment in the city as- For business, like schools for kids, it's the, like in Sal Salvador you find everything you need, you know, like US standard living, I will say, like, and then we start seeing like, like I mentioned, like people that are coming in looking for more cooler areas of, of Sal Salvador, so we have clients interested in the mountains, you know, on farms, you know, we have like a lot of farms. Farmland and coffee farms, you know, so we're seeing a mix of different, different things, you know?

Yeah. And I noticed also from the site you have the, discovery trips. I think you, you were touching on this at the, at the st-at the start of the podcast. do you wanna just spell out a little bit about these discovery trips and, you know, what are some of the big takeaways people have after attending one?

Yeah, I, I can start with that, and then Chimera, you can add on. Yeah, we de- we developed these trips as a response to what we were seeing from our clients. Like we had a lot of people that were interested in El Salvador but not really ready to commit yet, and they needed to have a better understanding of the layout of the country and some of the systems we talked about, education system, health system, before they, they really decided how to invest their money. and so, and we decided, you know, to, to launch these to give people that, that first experience, that first step in El Salvador so that they can feel more confident making decisions moving Going forward. the trips, they include, it's, it's a five-day, all-immersive, all-inclusive experience here in El Zonte. We have a really beautiful villa that we rent out, and we have professional workshops, real estate tours, networking with other people who have decided to move to El Salvador, sharing their experiences. it's, it's, you know, we say it's not like a cheesy retreat, you know, where we're, we're throwing some kind of party, it's like we're really focused on business development, making- Making sure that people have all of the tools and the, and the resources they need to invest here.

Yeah, and, and you know, very often, when we're traveling for conference and Bitcoin conference and like people approach to me and say, "Where do I need to buy? I wanna buy now. What's the best property to buy?" You know? I'm like Well, you first, you, you need to come to El Salvador first, you know, like because I think like once you come and you have a better understanding of what the country's doing, what the infrastructure is doing, if you wanna live in the mountain, if you wanna live in a gated community, if you wanna be, live on the beach, there's so many things that can change, you know, based on your need, that again, based on their need, you know? And it's, I- We start talking about with Lexi like it's, it's impossible, that someone will buy real estate without being here, you know, because the market is so different, and I think it will be, I like again, like I wanna- Add value. It's like, kind of, I feel the responsibility that if people will invest in money in our country, I wanna make sure that they understand what they're doing, you know? Like, that they're, like, you know, like, wow, I'm, I understanding, I wanna support this, I'm excited about this, now I understand the quality of life, you know, I understand what I can do here. And For people that understand that value, 'cause you can come your own and trying to, you know, connecting with the right people, see how the construction working here, you know, the construction is even different between here and the USA, you know? And also, also this is a good point also, the house here, like if you're looking for a house, your house. It's representing something different, you know, here it's warm all year round, we spend a lot of our time outside. So people come with this idea that, in the US and Canada or Europe, you spend a lot of time inside of your house. So here, you spend much of your time outside of your house, you, you know, so the perspective is also different. And I think it's, it's important that people come and understanding that, you know, like, to El Salvador is the place where you can come Come and, come and build your dream house, you know, kind of, kind of that, you know? And, and it's beautiful when you're, when you work with these families, these individuals that have this dream, and, you know, you start working with an architect and the idea, and then it come alive and, and it's a dream, right? So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's beautiful.

It's a good, it's a really good first step. It's just a very good first step for everybody who's been hearing about El Salvador, Even gone to conferences, has a little bit of knowledge about what's happening here, excited about the government, like this is a very, very good first step. It will be fun, but it's also super informative, and then you can leave really understanding, like, "Yeah, I want to beachfront property," or "Yeah, I want to buy a hotel," or "I can see myself, you know, moving my business here." So that's the first step, and then from there, we really can put together a plan for you based on what you, what you liked and what you didn't

You know, of, of course, I, I think I agree it's, you know, it's a good idea to visit the country first and really get an idea of the different areas and what you could do. but the other, I guess, risk factor for a lot of people will be if they're buying, let's say, a pre-construction, off-plan kind of property, they really wanna make sure the developer has a good reputation and that they can deliver, right? Because there's always gonna be a bit more risk there compared to, you know, buying a property that

If it's an off plan sort of thing, maybe there's a bit more risk there. So, do you have any thoughts on how to mitigate that? Is it, is it, is it a matter of finding good quality developers with a track record or how do you think about that?

Yeah, I think like the developments that we've worked with have been with developers who do have a, a track record in, in El Salvador. they've developed projects before. That, that being said, there's definitely new developers who are, who are trustworthy Right, but I think it's just you have to sort of do your due diligence. We do that with projects that we're, we decide to work with and collaborate with, and, and clients can do that as well to make sure that they feel comfortable about making a decision like that.

Yeah, and, and also, we're not gonna get involved in some projects that, we don't believe, you know? Because it's already happens, like some people approach us to, asking us for help, you know, with the commercialization, but every time you get involved, it's also like you're putting that, your faith, you know, that you trust that project, right? So I think it's also, it's also that, you know, we, we personally, we do our own- Diligence with projects that we, we wanna get involved, part of that is also why we're moving to develop too as well, you know, because we wanna be able also to control the whole like process, right? And And you know, this is, this is our, our, our trust. It's, it's, it's a business that you need to trust. It's about trust, right? And I think, like Lexi say, like, a lot of people that are coming now are people that are coming with the right, mindset. You know, it's a great opportunity, but it's also they wanna do the right thing, and, and that is, it's amazing. It's not just like- I'm coming, I'm gonna do a Chile project, and I wanna scam people, like a lot of people. El Salvador is not the example that of, the government and the, and the whole country is leading, you know? And everyone, I can feel aligned with that. And also like, if they're coming and they're doing a project like that, I think they will have like some pushback from, from, you know, from many people, you know? But if you- Come with the right mindset, and you wanna build a good project, I think I, like everyone will be willing to support, you know, and helping you to do your project, you know what I mean?

Great. Okay, well, look, I think, it's, yeah, really interesting. I, I'm personally bullish on El Salvador. I think it, I think it is, a country, you know, on the up. and, yeah, I'm looking forward to visiting in January. I'll be there in, well, for So you can check it out, goodlifeel salvador dot com is the website to find, Chimbera and Lexi's work. I'll put the links in the show notes, as always. and yeah, Chimbera and Lexi, thank you for joining me today. Thank you, thanks for having us. Thank you,

Stefan. Thank you, thank you for having us. Great

conversation.

Yeah, thank you.