Plan Your Second Passport Before You Need It

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Stephan Livera Podcast. We're joining you from Dubai today. Joining me today is Alex Recouso from CitizenX. People who don't already know Alex, actually, I did a podcast with Alex a couple of years ago in Lugano, I think, maybe two years ago. I can't remember now. But yeah, it's good to have you back, have you in Dubai.

Thank you, Stephan.

So I know you're doing all this work with CitizenX, obviously a Bitcoiner and trying to talk about, you know, passports and residencies and all of this stuff.

And of course, being like a Bitcoiner savvy form of that, let's say. But let's start with you a little bit on like how you got into this, like what got you into this idea of doing like all the passports and residencies and all that?

Yeah, it's interesting because I discovered this when I was 14 years old, but it wasn't until I really understood Bitcoin in 2020 when I realized that it was sort of the missing piece.

Bitcoin solved capital mobility, and you can move your money freely across borders without asking for permission, but you still need permission to move yourself. So human mobility still depends on citizenships, passports, because of the monopoly on violence that nation states have. And there was no easy way to diversify your passport portfolio. I thought that was going to be one of the most important assets for the decade as more Bitcoiners achieved freedom on the monetary realm. I thought they would be looking for alternative citizenships, residencies, and all of that, and there was really no easy way to do it that is secure, that is private, that is transparent, and that shares the same principles that many Bitcoiners have. That's when I decided to start working on this. And now, after many years, really happy, really excited to see how we have helped not just many Bitcoiners, individuals and families, but also trying to do our bit in advising nation states on how they can accept Bitcoin in exchange for citizenship.

I see. So you see it like it's almost, well, it is. It's a two-sided market, right? Because you've got the customers, and then, of course, there's the people who are selling the citizenships or residences. Now, of course, that could be controversial because maybe that's like a bit of a newer thing for people. And I think for some people, nationality, that question can have, you know, a lot of stronger, sometimes emotional, sometimes, you know, logical reasons for that connection. And maybe people might feel a bit of resistance to that idea of, oh, you're selling my country's passport. How do you see that nowadays?

Yeah, so back in 2021, I understood Bitcoin, a big component of that, was the sovereign individual, the, the book. And, as part of the sovereign individual thesis, you obviously have, private money and, and Bitcoin and separating money and state, but you also have the unbundling of the nation state and how more services from the nation state get privatized as, as nation states become less and less competent. I think towards that path is the basically productization of, citizenship and sovereign goods in general. So, you have nation states that compete for these talented, wealthy individuals, and one way to compete to attract these talent and capital is to offer better citizenship services. And, many individuals are already demanding second citizenships and additional passports and, and residencies. So as part of that, it's really clear how nation states can become appealing and can attract, and we have seen this in places like El Salvador, Caribbean countries like St Kitts and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, and more recently with Argentina, how by building an attractive citizenship program and offering citizenship to foreigners, these countries can raise funding and in some ways even accumulate Bitcoin in a budget neutral way.

Yeah, I see. And I think what a lot of this, it used to be more opaque and it used to be only for the rich, like for the very rich. And I think maybe what's happened is maybe some of this has become a bit more transparent and maybe a little bit more accessible that you didn't have to be this kind of point oh oh oh one percent, you know, gazillionaire to be able to afford it. So I think that's maybe the broad trend that I've noticed over, over the decades, let's say, right? Because I think in the early days of, I guess now, you know, Katie from, you know, the team calls it flag theory, right? I think it used to be called like five flag or six flag theory or whatever, and maybe in like the seventies or the eighties, and this is kind of like somewhat libertarian, libertarian adjacent people who are writing about this idea of like, have your, you know, your bank account here and your citizenship here and you live here and you, yeah, but even, even in those days, it was less accept, like flight became a lot cheaper, you know, all of these things have kind of changed over time with like the internet and computers and, you know, Bitcoin and now AI stuff, right? All these things have kind of made it more accessible, wouldn't you say? So I guess, I guess, let me put that question to you. Who should be looking at this? Is this only for deca-millionaires, single millionaires, even hundred, you know, if you've got a hundred thousand dollars or your net worth, like what is the right level that you should be at to look at this stuff?

Everyone should think about their second passport. Everyone should be thinking about how to diversify their citizenships, their residencies, their, sovereign flags in any way possible. Obviously, if we are talking about citizenship by investment programs, donation-based programs, those are still more targeted towards high net worth individuals.

I recently put it this way on X that these citizenship programs, they are for high liquidity, low mobility people. So essentially people that have the financial means, the capital to purchase a second passport, and they don't have the mobility, the time to invest, relocate into a different country because they have no, no residency, no presence requirements. But then you have many other programs like residency programs, relocation. Programs that are for high mobility, low liquidity. So basically people who don't have the capital to, to donate money to a country or to invest, but they have mobility. So they have time, they can just move to a different country, and then over time, after some years, work towards an additional citizenship. So there are many ways, and there are many citizenship acquisition methods. This is just one very specific method that personally I find it exciting because it's also the one that is easier to productize because, again, there are no residency requirements, no presence requirements, no language requirements. So these programs literally allow you to buy a passport online, and do it with Bitcoin in many cases. And at the same time, on the other side of the market, it's also exciting because countries can directly raise funding by issuing citizenship instead of by issuing bonds as they were doing, traditionally.

But also talking about the trends in the market, one has been the price competition. So at the same time, while system programs were getting more and more expensive and more difficult. Also, by game theory, other countries decided to compete, enter the market, and offer more affordable options. Just a concrete example, Caribbean countries used to be a one hundred thousand dollar minimum donation. In 2024, they started requiring a two hundred thousand dollar minimum donation. And the next year, many countries like Sao Tome and Principe in Africa or Nauru decided to launch cheaper programs, even with requiring a donation of less than one hundred thousand dollars. Just because of game theory, these countries want to compete, they want to attract talent and wealth. So I believe over time, we will see more countries offering cheaper programs. Obviously, within the boundaries of the market, because again, no country is going to give you citizenship for free without presence requirements, without residence requirements. It's, you know, you have to pay either with your money or with your time and taxes.

Or in rare cases, maybe, let's say, if you have ancestors. From there. This kind of, that's like the, you know, the blood connection per se. But yeah, I think that's interesting. And I guess, maybe there's a bit of a life cycle to this also that like maybe a, a program comes out and maybe it starts out a bit cheaper, but over time the price rises, or maybe it, it's no longer available, right? Because maybe, and maybe there's a bit of a, you know, there's a kind of a life cycle to that as well, that maybe a place when they start out, maybe they're not so attractive, so they come out with a very cheap offer. And then over time they get more attractive. And so now they're like, well, okay, well, we should raise our price now.

But you have seen that in places like, Singapore, I believe you will eventually see that in the UAE, where initially it was super easy to move there. It was easy to get residency. It was sort of easier to even get citizenship in some of these places. But over time, as they become more attractive, they become more, more crowded and demand rises, they have to.

And then they've got to lock it down a bit more. Yeah. So there's, maybe there's a bit of a life cycle to it. And maybe it's sort of like. Depending on, obviously there's no one size fits all, right? So it's kind of like, you know, depending on where you are. So I guess coming, I want to come back to that point you made earlier about people who have liquidity and people who have, you know, mobility, right? Because typically, let's say typically, if you are born into a, an Asian country or some of the poorer Asian countries, you might be a person with low mobility, but let's say you're a high net worth businessman in one of those countries, then it makes sense for you to maybe, you know, buy one of those passports for the mobility, right? So that's that point. But the, I guess the other side of it might be, let's say you are born or raised in a you know, like a Western country, like in Australia, USA, UK, Canada, these kinds of, or Western Europe kind of countries, maybe you already have a decently strong passport for travel, but, you know, maybe those people, like if you are not a high net worth person, then that's, maybe that's kind of the, the dynamic with that. And so I think historically, or at least where I've understood it, it's typically the people who already have a good passport, when they're looking at buying another passport or citizenship by investment, it's typically they want it as a Plan B. They're not planning to actually go and live there. Maybe some of them do, but less likely. And then the other side of it is like, maybe the people from like Asian or African countries, but they're high net worth, they're thinking of it as like, I want to be able to leave or, put assets outside the country, or actually, you know, they do actually want to go and live in that country. Is that, like, loosely what you've seen, or what do you see?

Yes, I, I agree with that. I would say that, especially for people with weak passports, it's a more pressing need, because it affects their daily life. It limits where they can travel, where they can, work, where they can live, where they can relocate. For Westerners who normally have, a strong main passport, Europeans, North Americans, they can move, they have mobility, they can travel visa-free, but in many cases, this mobility is not just what they can do, but, but what they want to do. And that's what we see, for example, with many, again, Europeans, North Americans who maybe have their businesses in their countries, maybe they have a Bitcoin mining facility that they cannot easily relocate to a different country, so they want to stay in the US. They want to stay where they are, but they still want to obtain more optionality, buy a second passport, for themselves, for their family and future generations. So that's the aspect of, of low mobility that can even apply to people who have strong passports.

I see, yeah. And then, what about on the business side of things? Because there's you as an individual, but then there's you as a business also, or let's say your, your company. So then it's also that question of like, where should the company set up and things like that. Is that something you guys look at, or you just, you focus more on the individual side?

We focus on citizenship only. In some cases that overlaps because some of these programs, they require you to make a contribution to the country.

Right, or set up a business in that country, that kind of thing.

In some cases, yes, but it's a very, very few cases. It's very limited, very niche. I have barely seen it. Top of mind, I think St Lucia has a business incorporation route, but I haven't seen anyone, do it. And then Turkey is one of the programs that is a bit more, open in terms of the types of contribution that you can make to the country, but normally, almost all of the programs that we work with are donation-based, just because, what our clients are looking for is, is buying that second passport. And also something that is, very, important for Bitcoiners and when we plan with individuals and families, that, that are into Bitcoin, is that normally other types of contributions require higher amounts. So, for example, there might be a real estate investment program, but the amount they require you to invest is double what they require you to donate. So what many Bitcoiners think is, well, I might as well keep my other half into Bitcoin and donate half, rather than put everything into a piece of real estate on a random country that I don't, I don't even want to visit.

In some cases it might be like a bad deal, or you, you may not understand the market well, so you may not.

Exactly, in most cases it's government approved real estate, so it's overpriced. You are not even getting a full, piece of real estate. In many cases you are just buying a, a timeshare. So what most, most Bitcoiners think is, well, I might as well, you know. Put half into Bitcoin, donate half, rather than just put everything into real estate.

I see, yeah. And so talk to us a little bit about the different programs, at least today, like how are you seeing, and obviously we should touch on the Argentina one, because that's like a big new one. I don't know, you're obviously bullish on Argentina, but, give kind of a rough overview of like, where's kind of the low end, the middle end, and the high end, price-wise, and kind of how, you know, like an overview for people.

Yeah, so I think these days you have sort of three to four types of programs. The first one is what I call the pure Plan B passports that are

Right, like Vanuatu, Sao Tome.

Correct, Nauru, even Sierra Leone in some cases, although it's not really popular and not one of my favorite, but those are passports that are not strong passports from a mobility perspective, from the amount of visa-free countries that you can travel to. They still have some interesting destinations, for example, some of them have visa-free access to the UAE, to Singapore, so if you are doing business in those countries, it might be interesting, but they are not what people perceive as strong passports. They're still from neutral, small island countries that will not go after you, they will not send you to war, they will not tax you globally, so that's good, but the passport as the travel document is not the strongest. The good thing about these programs is that they're normally cheaper, starting as low as ninety-five thousand dollars, and normally faster and more flexible when it comes to the process. Then the second one would be the traditional Caribbean programs that are

Like St Kitts, Antigua Barbuda, St Lucia,

Exactly. That they are more expensive, but also the passport is stronger. The reason why they are more expensive is because they have visa-free access to the Europe, Schengen area. So the European Union has been pressuring them to make them more difficult, make them slower, introduce presence requirements, and obviously make them more expensive. And then the third to fourth group is, sort of, free riders. So you would have Turkey, for example, in that group that requires a four hundred thousand dollar investment. Although it has some disadvantages like mandatory military service, global taxes on, Turkish citizens on their inheritances, not tax advice, but that exists, so it's a disadvantage, from Turkey in my perspective. And then you have El Salvador, that is sort of my favorite program, just because we have also been, advising the, the government on this one, and they accept a one million dollar donation in Bitcoin or USDT. And it's the fastest program. We have seen people with time to passports of as little as twenty-one days. The process is really smooth, and it's one of the strongest passports as well. Not just from a visa-free access perspective, but also you get global entry to the US, so it's a really, really strong passport, and really the, the main disadvantage for the one is the, is the price. But I'm hoping that, for example, with Argentina, we see something similar in terms of passport strength. Some people see Argentina as a more appealing country, just because it's a bigger country, more of a Plan B country in a remote location in the Southern Cone. Others see Argentina as worse, just because they don't allow citizenship renunciation, or they have some geopolitical conflicts with the Malvinas, for example. But I think Argentina, as they have announced and under the prices that they have announced, I think it might be a really appealing option.

I see, yeah. And so, yeah, let's talk a bit about the Argentina and, yeah, let's talk about the Argentina one and like what the key, my understanding is it's 350,000, that's if you're buying, if you're just buying it, 350,000 for the main applicant, I think 100,000 for your spouse, and then like 25K for, like, so let's say family of four, right, wife and two kids, it's going to be about 500K-ish, or 350K if you're just a single applicant, right? That's kind of the range. That's on the buying it method, and I think they have some other methods.

They have a government bond starting at $800,000 that you have to hold for seven years, and it's non-interest bearing, so you are basically playing.

It's kind of a forced hold, and like you're losing, I mean, if you're a Bitcoiner, you're giving up kind of being able to hold Bitcoin for that time, but I guess it's like if you had enough fear that it would, yeah, I don't know, probably, I mean, again, there's no one size fits all, but probably a lot of the high net worth Bitcoiners would rather just pay and just get it, right?

In my experience, that has been the case. They would very much rather put the 450 into Bitcoin and donate 350 rather than lending 800K to the government of Argentina that historically, you know.

Yeah, because that's the other thing, right? Because like when you, if you were looking at these programs and you're like, okay, I'm going to buy that program, you also, to an extent, you're like making a bet on that country and where it's going to go, right? Like hopefully, you, you, you know, hopefully things go well in that country, they start to grow, it starts to be good for business, et cetera. But it could go the other way too, right? Like if there's corruption or the economy goes badly there or, you know, whatever, war or other bad things could happen. So how do you kind of assess that risk then in the Argentinian case, right? Like maybe if you're bullish on Milei or whatever, like how do you see that for Argentina.

So I think you have to differentiate the type of risk. So for example, for Argentina to become socialist again and raise taxes and become less attractive for business, I don't think that's really going to have an impact on passport holders per se.

Because most of them won't live there anyway. They're just going to buy the passport and have it as an option.

So as long as the passport preserves its strength in the sense of visa-free access, as long as there's no military conflict, there's no war, no conscription, and as long as the government doesn't overreach in the sense that they go for their citizens, even the ones who don't live there, as for example is the case with the US, with global taxation. US citizens pay taxes to the US no matter where they live. That's something that we are already seeing in Europe, for example, with proposals as the one in France, proposing to tax French citizens globally, no matter where they live. In the case of Argentina, for example, I don't see that as A plausible scenario, where they would try to overreach so much. Also they don't really have the resources. It's a bit of a similar situation to Turkey, where, yes, they have global taxes on inheritances, but Turkey doesn't really have the capabilities to enforce that.

So, one concern I've seen is this idea that the EU really hates the fact that Caribbean islands are selling passports and they have Schengen access, and they're trying to, you know, find ways to cut against them or threaten to take it away, which, I mean, maybe that does happen. And I guess you could reason that, okay, they're less likely to do that to Argentina, because Argentina's a much bigger country. It's kind of a lot harder for them to say, hey, you shouldn't sell your passport.

We don't want, you know, people just buying Argentinian passports and coming to live in or kind of traveling into the EU on it. How do you kind of assess that risk? Do you think they're gonna eventually take it away from the Caribbean countries?

It's really interesting because I don't know what's going to happen with Argentina specifically, and I have discussed this with, many colleagues, many people involved in the industry, and everyone has a different opinion.

I believe that the European Union has a very strong, ideological stance on, citizenship by investment, residency programs, and all of that, not because they think it's a security risk, but because it goes against their, ideology. They, they hate wealth, they hate, people being able to obtain optionality and freedom, so that's why they don't want these programs to exist. Now when it comes to the visa-free access, that's really the only leverage that they have to force other countries into stopping these programs. As they did with Malta, for example. Malta is an European Union country that used to have a citizenship program, and they made them close the program, which, in my opinion, was completely crazy, because now you have the European Union telling a EU member state how and to whom they can issue citizenship. So that's a huge overreach, in my opinion. When it comes to the Caribbean countries, that's really the leverage that they have, the visa-free access. So St. Kitts and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, they can travel visa-free to the European Union. The European Union doesn't like this program, so they're telling them, hey, make them more difficult, make them more expensive, because in the end what they want to do is to make them less attractive. So these wealthy people cannot go to Europe, because that's what they want. They don't want wealthy people in Europe. They don't want businesses to thrive in Europe.

So in my opinion, they will most likely lose, visa-free access to, to Europe, as, it happened in the past, for example, with, Vanuatu. I think it's either that or making the programs so unattractive in the Caribbean that is de facto closing them.

And then from the St. Kitts and Antigua and Barbuda perspective and some of the others, they may not want to do that because that would kind of kill their own, action, let's say.

It's half of their GDP. So.

That's a, yeah, that's, and that's an interesting thing to, like, walk through from a government's perspective, right? Because even on the government side, if you, you know, issue citizenship to people, I guess you have to think about the full, the holistic aspect of it, because if you issue a citizenship to these people, they can vote theoretically. They can, I mean, if they, if they have a welfare state, they could come like later in their life and be a burden on them, you know, and welfare states are not very sustainable. I think everyone kind of knows that and understands that. But then they also have to kind of make this, I guess, assessment of how much money are we going to get in from this program that we can build things and do things now. So how do they kind of balance those things?

Yeah, but not just from the program, and I think you are focusing on the bad aspects that you can get from these new citizens, from this diaspora, but you can also think about all the good things that you can get out of it. Exactly, exactly. So you can also look at it.

They can come and invest in the island, like even if you bought the passport, you might also go and buy land there, that kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, yeah, you got to be fair, like there's the pros and cons of it.

Exactly, and especially, you know, we are talking about a small number relative to the entire population. Maybe in these countries, not so small, but in many other countries, it's normally a few thousand people that are strongly vetted and that are high net worth individuals. So normally, they will not require welfare state, or they will not use the welfare from these countries, and it's more likely that they will invest, and they will set up businesses, and they will open bank accounts, and bring their capital to the country. But also, what I would tell these countries is that they should rather focus on offering something attractive. To the people, and not so much on offering visa-free access, because what I think will happen as well is that visa-free access will become less and less relevant as, unfortunately, governments have more control over our lives and we have less privacy. They will be able to easily identify who they want to let into the country and who they don't want to let into the country. So I think the concept of visa-free access by your passport will become less and less important. Obviously, it will be one of the aspects that a government will decide on whether they want to let you into the country or not. But also, if you look at highly competent governments like Singapore or the UAE, they're at the same time very open in terms of visa-free access, and they barely restrict any countries from coming there visa-free. What they look is at the individual, and is this person going to cause trouble in the country? And they're really good, so they really know who they can let into the country and who they can't let into the country. So that's why I think the concept of visa

You think it's going to diminish in importance relative, but there's other aspects to it. So then what would the main selling points be? Like the taxes in that country, the lifestyle in that country?

What do you think, if we're saying visa-free access is going to relatively decreased a little bit in importance, but still be there. It'll still be a factor. What are the things that will matter, that will, that do matter?

Even within the mobility, you have one that is, in my opinion, as important, that is settlement rights. Right. Not, not just if you can travel visa free as a tourist, but if you can actually set up and live and work. That's something, for example, in the EU, if you are an EU citizen, you can

You can live anywhere in the EU, right?

Exactly. If you're an EU resident, you cannot. You can travel visa free to any EU country.

Right, but you can't live there necessarily.

Exactly, exactly.

Like, and some of these are part of things too, right? So like, the Caribbean ones have, what's it called, CARICOM. So if you are a citizen of one of them, you can live in the other ones sometimes.

You can get residency easier in any of the others. And there's one that is a full CARICOM mobility with Dominica, for example. You can live and work without restrictions in Barbados, St Vincent, and one other country that signed this specific agreement for full mobility. But that's something that you have, for example, with Argentina and Mercosur. It's part of Mercosur. So that might

Be another attractive factor of like, you can get into the club per se of Mercosur.

Exactly. And that's settlement rights even within the mobility, but then there are any other aspects. And I think, for example, stability is, is more important. You know, you want a country that, again, going back, back to the downside that you have from your citizenship that doesn't send you to war, that doesn't tax you globally, that allows you to be free.

And that's something that we saw with, countries like Russia, for example, that used to have a strong passport. They were sort of considered first world and they were living normal lives. And suddenly one day, because of a decision from the state, all of their citizens had an asset, a passport that was depreciating and that didn't allow them to really live a normal life. In the case of Ukraine, for example, they cannot even renew their passport abroad. They make them come back to Ukraine so they can send them to war. So I think that's the value of a second passport, a second citizenship from a country that aligns with your values. That respects your freedom.

Okay, yeah, so you think it's more like, yeah, it's a lot, it's more like that freedom aspect of it. But of course, other things will play into it, right, like taxes and, yeah.

Of course, you have the optionality with the settlement rights, you also get the optionality to set up your tax residency in that country, and if it's a tax-friendly country, that's a really good benefit. You can also maybe do business in the region, and it's something that you are not doing just for yourself, but also it's something that is for the future generations. You can later on include your children, grandchildren, and it becomes sort of a generational asset that will pass down through your future generations.

Yeah, I see. And then, yeah, I guess let's talk a little bit about, you know, people who are already wealthy versus, you know, there's the acronym HENRY, right, high earner, not rich yet. So talk to us a bit about that, like what are the different scenarios that you should look at? Like, let's say if you're, you know, let's say, you're starting out, you don't have that much, income or assets, and then maybe the HENRY kind of category of like, you have high income, but you don't have high net worth yet. And then like the people who are already high net worth, like what are, how would you look at the different programs from those? Yeah.

So it's, it's quite difficult because I think a very important factor is how urgent this is for you. Because for some people who have a weak passport or, or for some people who maybe are really scared of their country taxing them globally, like for example, French or people who are scared of their country sending them to war, like, Germany with the new changes in the military service. So for those, maybe, it is advisable to use a bigger share of the income or total wealth for something like this is because it's more urgent. But then for the high earners, for example, they might want to use that just to structure properly and allow them to build wealth and compound over the years in the right way without another country coming in and asking for taxes or suddenly asking for global taxes. So I think it's important to consider the entire plan, but it can be a really important structuring element. I was having a conversation, this week with one of our clients who was looking at the full picture from bank to tax residency to passport, and he was thinking, well, I might as well, you know, first get, many bank accounts that are Bitcoin friendly, then, set up in a, Bitcoin friendly tax residency, and only then look at the passport. And I was telling him, well, maybe you can also look at it the other way around and think, I might as well first my, first get my passport, and then use the passport to get a tax friendly residency, but under your own passports, so you already have more privacy, more freedom. You don't depend so much on your country of origin. That might not be as Bitcoin friendly. And then with that tax-friendly residency or residency permit, open the Bitcoin-friendly bank accounts. So it really depends on the personal circumstances and there's, you know, an argument for doing it one way or the other.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. And then the other kind of common, I guess, common story you might hear is people might, let's say, be born into a high tax, you know, Western nation, and maybe they start a business, and then only after they've kind of made it, then they start thinking, oh, actually, maybe I do need to look at this stuff. And like, then now to exit at that point, there's like exit taxes or, you know, it's kind of, whereas like, I guess what you're saying is, if you were kind of proactive, or let's say before you had made that wealth, or let's say you're really bullish on Bitcoin, right? And you think Bitcoin is gonna, you know, 10x, 100x in the next 10 to 20 years, then I guess if you're, you're, you're trying to structure yourself outside the country you're in before it runs up, I guess that's maybe like the proactive side of it. So talk to us a bit about the proactive, you know, search for citizenships and the reactive search for citizenships.

Yeah, I started mentioning that I think everyone should think about their second passport. And as you said, most people only think about a second passport when it's too late.

It's too late. So that's the reactive side.

Yeah, yeah.

I like to say that you can't buy insurance once the house is on fire.

Right, right.

Once they seize your bank account, you can no longer turn that fiat into Bitcoin. It's already seized. It's no longer yours. And it's the same with your passport. You know, once they revoke your passport, once you have exit taxes, global taxes, once they want to send you to war, it's going to be much harder to get a second passport. And again, it doesn't mean that you should buy a passport tomorrow. It just means that you should start thinking about this, assessing the different options that you have, you know, either relocation and then naturalization after five, ten years living in the country, either citizenship by descent, looking into your ancestry and seeing if there's any citizenship that you can claim back from your grandparents, great-grandparents, or if you are looking for flexibility, speed, convenience, then citizenship by investment. Programs might be that would fit.

Yeah. And I guess that's interesting because for some of these programs, it's like you can get it cheap if you go and live there, but there's other costs to that. Like maybe you've got to now be a tax resident or you have to spend a certain amount of time in country. I think people are talking about El Salvador for that as well because they were saying, well, you can very cheaply go to the country, get residence, and then just live in the country and then naturalize that way instead of paying one million dollars. But let's say for the very high net worth people, they would rather pay a million and not have to live and just get it straight away. So I guess that's kind of the trade off of that, right?

That's the best example for high mobility, low liquidity. So if you have high mobility, go live in El Salvador. You can get residency basically for free. Now they reduce the minimum presence requirements to three months per year. And then after two years of temporary residency, you can apply for permanent residency. And then with the permanent residency, I think either three to five years, I know it's one for Spanish, and some Central South Americans, but you need to be there, and then after that time that you have lived there, that you have built ties, that you have learned the language, you apply for naturalization, and then it's up to the officer that is reviewing your application whether to grant you citizenship or not. So it's also high risk, you are investing first with your time, you are investing with your taxes, if you spend enough time in the country, not tax advice, but most likely you will also be a tax resident. And then you are hoping for the country to grant you citizenship, to not change the law, for that officer to really look at your application with, with a good eye and, and wanting to grant you citizenship. So some people are fine with that. If you have high, high mobility and low liquidity, that's probably your best bet. But then there are people who have low mobility and high liquidity, they cannot move, or they don't want to move. They are here in the UAE, they have their businesses, they're in Singapore, they're in Switzerland, they're in the US with, Bitcoin. Mining facility and they don't want to move to El Salvador and spend many years living there. And they have the means to just donate one million dollars and get citizenship in a matter of weeks.

Yeah, right. So it's kind of, and yeah, and that comes back to even, you know, let's say, as you said, like if you haven't built your wealth yet, but you're a Bitcoiner and you're kind of, you're down for an adventure kind of thing, then maybe that's like an angle too.

But I think the other aspect of it is, maybe for people who are born and raised in the West, life in some of these other countries may not be what they expect. And I think maybe there's a bit of a shock, there can be a bit of a shock if you don't know what you're in for, right? Like, like obviously go and visit for a holiday or like test it out, but actually living on the ground in some of these countries, it may not be what you're used to. And so you have to be kind of flexible on that side of it too, right? Because if you're not flexible to sort of live like the locals do or something closer to that, you might not make it work, right? It might not stick, and then you kind of, you know, we don't want it, you don't want it to fail, right? You don't want to try this thing, and it doesn't work. So you kind of, you need to put in enough work, or be committed enough to like, I'm going to make this work, I'm going to go there, I'm going to live there. And it's one thing to just go there as a single person, but let's say you've got a wife, you've got kids, that's, you know, it adds to the, you have to figure it out, you know, holistically.

Yeah, and again, even if you manage to spend all the required time in the country, through naturalization routes, you are not sure whether you will okay.

Yeah, it's not entitlement.

Exactly, exactly. It's not, with these programs, for example, you provide the documents, the government approves you. Once you're approved, you make the required contribution, and then you are entitled to citizenship in many cases by, by constitution. But with naturalization, you are just doing your, your best effort. Again, if that's the only way that you can contribute to the country with your time, with your taxes, then it's your, your best, course of action. But there's also different. Types of programs.

Yeah, and I think probably a good example there is the Portugal golden visa one, right? Because that was, that was on where they did change the timeline, didn't they? Like it was something like, buy this, you know, get this golden visa and all this stuff.

I don't trust any European countries anymore. I think they cannot, they cannot be trusted. That's why we don't do anything in Europe.

Because they changed the timeline on people, didn't they? I don't know the detail. They might have tried to, they might have grandfathered some people in, but other people got screwed because of the timeline.

Europe, Europe is crazy. And I think in Europe you have many programs that can be considered honeypots. Like for example, in Italy with the flat tax, they used to have a flat tax that you could go live in Italy, pay the flat tax, and suddenly overnight they decided to double the flat tax.

Right. So were the old people grandfathered in?

I don't think so. I don't think so. It's like you are paying, I think it was 150,000 euros per year, and then overnight, hey, next year the bill is 300.

It's the Darth Vader kind of pray I do not alter the deal any further kind of style.

And then they add to that a bit of exit tax, and then they the perfect combination to, to seize your assets.

Well, yeah, so I mean, it's challenging. I think, yeah, I, I think in some of these cases, maybe like people get grandfathered in, like if you were in on the old deal, you can keep that deal. But if you're coming in new, then like, you know, the price rises this time.

I would say it also depends on the motivation that the country has, because if the country would, they really want is to screw people and they want to extract as much value as possible, they will not grandfather people. If it's something, you know, for example, as it happened with the Caribbean programs, where they increased the minimum contribution from one hundred to two hundred thousand dollars, not because they really wanted, but because they were forced to do it. They tried to grandfather as many people as possible because it was good for them. They could, they could raise more money and also their program could be attractive for longer for people who applied before the deadline. But obviously because of the external pressures, they had to have a deadline.

Yeah, I see. So yeah, but I mean, and some of this also comes into like a life cycle thing too, right? Like as I understand with Portugal, it's that they, you know, a couple of years ago, or maybe a decade, 15 years ago, whatever, there was the whole pigs thing, right? The debt situation, the debt crisis in Europe and Portugal was literally the P in pigs. And so, and there was like this idea of like, oh, we need investment. And so they had this golden visa program. It was quite successful. They brought in all these people. And then now it's kind of turning back because maybe it was in a, in one sense, too successful for its own good, right? That all these people came in and then they started to kind of attack the, the digital nomad or the, you know, they kind of saw it as like, this is here to attack now. So it's almost a funny thing. I think that happened in Spain too, didn't it? Like to an extent, I saw this funny story. I'm sure you probably know more than me, but wasn't there like a, they were like squirting water at the tourists in Spain at certain cities because they were like frustrated with all the tourism happening?

Yeah, Spain actually used to have a golden visa as well where you could just buy real estate and permanent residence in Spain and then after some years potentially apply for, for citizenship and they decided to blame the, the rising housing costs on the golden visa that was a really, really small share of the, of the real estate investment in the, in the country. And they closed the, the program and now, but I think it's more of a, of an ideological thing where they just hate tourists, they hate investors, and it's a general trend in Europe. That's why also I think that, you know, generally in Europe, there are no Bitcoin friendly countries left because sure, they might be Bitcoin friendly on paper, or they might have, you know, some pathway to do it. For example, I have heard people talking about Germany or even Cyprus and other places, but I think in general, the trend is very clear. And what I'm seeing is more Europeans looking to diversify away from Europe.

Now, there are pockets of good, you know, like I'd say Czech Republic is relative, like not from the citizenship side, but like low tax on Bitcoin. And because they've got Bitcoin businesses, a lot of people in Czech Republic have Bitcoin. So they are maybe there's a spot there. Maybe Switzerland is kind of relatively good for now.

But I think that's the other thing. People want to have stability in the sense of like, oh, this is a place that I can raise my family. And not just that, that maybe it could be multiple generations, not just you, but your children and, you know, hopefully. But the challenge or what seems to happen is that like there's this kind of almost inevitable life cycle that after, you know, the place at the start, you get in good, and then like after it starts to grow, and then maybe the bloat, the corruption, the welfare, the voting, the democracy, the, you know, something starts to deteriorate over time. So then you kind of lose stability.

But I think that's the experience in the West, because then you come to places like the UAE or Singapore or even El Salvador, and they go up only. And you don't really see that life cycle, you know, things only get better over time. Like every time I'm here in the UAE, things are better. But also the thing to consider is that for many of these places that are attractive to live in, maybe raise a family, raise your children, grandchildren, they're also quite difficult to get citizenship. For example, in the UAE, it's almost impossible. You can get it by exception if you are globally exceptional like Pavel Durov or CZ who got citizenship in the UAE, but for most people it's almost impossible. The same in Singapore, it's quite difficult to ever obtain citizenship. So that's why many of these folks who are looking at these pockets of freedom, Bitcoin friendly countries, they are looking as well at second passport programs with flexibility because they want to live in a nice place that is Bitcoin friendly, like for example the UAE, and at the same time they don't want to still depend on their non-Bitcoin friendly European country, for example.

Yeah, so it's kind of, I mean, there's no perfect thing, right? So you kind of just have to like accept that over time, things are going to change. And then by the time it gets to your children's generation or grandkids' generation, I mean, who knows? It's just too hard to predict that far out, how things go. I, I guess the other thing people might want to know is just understanding with CitizenX, how does it compare with some of the other, like, the other, people in the industry of, you know, residences and passports and things?

One example I like to use is that the experience is pretty much, buying stocks or investing in stocks or in Bitcoin through a traditional stock broker where you go to their brick and mortar shop and you file a bunch of paperwork, you do a lot of manual work versus having a modern experience through a platform as CitizenX. We try to put a lot of focus on privacy, security, transparency, building a lot of technology to make the process easier and faster, but also to automate a lot of the work and give a good experience. We have, for example, a 24-7 concierge with people in different time zones. Our team is fully remote, so it's not the traditional experience where you get assigned to an office that works nine to five and they will not answer you in the weekend. So it's more like a modern experience and we try to really focus on precisely that, just making the experience really good, obviously through technology, but also concierge service. And I would say in many cases it's really complementary to, for example, advisors or, consultancy companies that they will really sell you the advice or they will sell you consultancy. I like to see more of, I like to see CitizenX more as, as the execution layer where you can just go and you can really easily the same way you have, you know, many platforms, great exchanges to buy Bitcoin in a really easy, secure, transparent way. You can do that for your passport portfolio and you can manage it in a really easy way for you and your entire family. And I believe that's also the reason why many of these, advisors, consultants, they also use CitizenX in the background to execute the process, just because it's, it's better.

I see. Yeah. So, it's, so in some ways you're collaborating with some of the other, you know, people in the industry per se, and I, you see it, as I understand then, you're trying to make it more like digital first process. And obviously Bitcoin kind of focused as well that you can typically pay with Bitcoin. That's improved over the years as well, hasn't it? Because like historically it might have been more like, no, you need to do a fiat transfer here, but maybe you can pay Bitcoin for this thing and that thing. And nowadays it's becoming more like, as a possibility that you can just do Bitcoin the whole way.

And that's also part of the, of the government advisory that I was mentioning. For example, Katie, from Plan B Passport, she did a tremendous job in the Caribbean. She did the first proof of funds from Bitcoin, and source of wealth from Bitcoin, allowing the government to verify that an applicant, had wealth because they were Bitcoiners. And I believe that's also the reason that, you know, we are able to, to attract this, this talent. We were able to, to acquire Plan B Passport, last year and Katie, is now working with us. We also recently, acquired NTL Trust, and, and Nick, the owner, is now our strategic advisor. So I believe that just because of that, you know, as people use us and many people like to talk openly about it, then there are others who want to keep the relationships and just use us in the background. But, you know, I think it shows that we're really building something that is different from the traditional, and I also believe that as new wealth gets built and more people look for new different solutions, the same way as people used to work with private bankers and wealth advisors in a more, you know, traditional finance sense, and now Bitcoiners, they demand different type of solutions just because it's new wealth, it's internet wealth. I believe the same will happen for all asset classes, and citizenship is just one of those.

Yeah, I see. And I think, especially moving into this kind of AI age, which is, you know, the AI trade is on, the AI era is on now, it's maybe collapsing a lot of what historically you had to pay a consulting fee for that. Whereas nowadays people will just be like asking their AI all kinds of things and the AI will literally consult for them on like what would be a good solution. Now, I guess do you, would you say that's, I mean, it feels like that's where it's going long, like medium to, you know, longer term, but for now, do you think that's a bad idea to just like talk to AI and be like, what citizenship should I get, that kind of thing? Or how would you address that?

I think it's great.

The biggest, flaw that I see these days in AI is that it doesn't have the practical experience. So it knows all the laws, it knows all the requirements, but it doesn't really know how it really works in practice. Because, for example, a program might announce, four months of processing time, and maybe everyone tells you that it's four months.

Right, but practically it's actually nine months.

Exactly, exactly. And we like to be transparent about it, but maybe the AI doesn't catch the one company that publishes a transparent timeline. It catches the fifty companies that are telling you that it's four months. So that's why I think it still has value to talk, with someone who, who walks the walk and is doing the process with, with many people. But still, I think it's a great starting point, and I think over time, the consultancy aspect of it will be heavily automated by AI. The execution, I'm not so sure, just because I don't think governments will have MCPs, unfortunately.

Yeah, not anytime soon.

Yeah. So they will still have the licensing system, they will still have the forms, and that's also the part that we are trying to bridge, automating all of that. So then when you plug the AI consultancy, you have a really smooth experience.

Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense to me. And then I guess let's finish on this idea, like, where do you see the opportunities for people who do kind of take this plunge of, obviously it's a big step to, you know, to leave the country that you were born or that you grew up in, but there's opportunities on that side too. Where do you see some of those opportunities for people, whether they are, you know, a single person, a couple, or a married person, a married, couple, or, you know, a family with children, where are the biggest opportunities for people who want to be open-minded to, you know, citizenship and residency outside the country of their birth?

In my opinion, I would focus on countries that are rising, that are part of the, of the rising world. I remember two years ago we talked about this, this concept of countries that keep getting worse over time and countries that keep improving over time. If I was a single person, I would probably focus on South America, Central America and South America, and maybe even some places in Africa, just because I think that's where the biggest growth opportunities are.

The frontier.

Exactly.

High risk, high reward.

Exactly. It's not convenient, it's lacking a lot of infrastructure, you will probably not have, not have convenience, you will not have a, a nice, easy life, but there's also a lot of opportunity places like El Salvador, Paraguay, Argentina. I think there's a lot of opportunity there, and again, some pockets in, in Africa. If you are a family and what you're looking for is already an established place, a place that has already risen and keeps improving, instead of getting worse like many places. In Europe or even North America, I would look probably into, the UAE, Singapore, maybe even Switzerland. If you really want to be in Europe, I think probably that's going to be one of the last places to become worse. But I think just because of their proximity with the EU, some decisions that they are making to stop being neutral and align themselves with the EU, I think it will follow the same trend, just slower. I still see many people moving to Switzerland and, gathering there. And when it comes to residency and citizenship, what you have to consider is that the places that are normally already nice and established, Switzerland, the UAE, Singapore, they are not going to be easy to obtain citizenship.

Right, they're not cheap or they're harder to get in.

Exactly. And then you might have opportunities in the places that are less established, like Argentina, Paraguay, El Salvador, might be easier for you to just move there and through your time and your taxes contribute to the country and eventually get citizenship.

Yeah, I see. And I think perhaps the other interesting one, we're running up on time, so last few points, but I think what I found really interesting is also this concept of just compounding, right? Like the idea is if you can go somewhere and have a very low tax rate and just compound with much lower taxes, that's going to end up by the end of your life or even in 10 or 20 years time, you've had some compounding. And I think, you know, interest rates, compounding is the eighth wonder of the world. I think it's hard for most people to appreciate that. So maybe there's something to that.

Yeah, of course. If you are not paying 50% in taxes, you can put that 50% extra into Bitcoin every month. So you are compounding and over some years that can have a big impact.

Excellent. All right, well, we'll finish it there. Alex from CitizenX. Thank you.

Thank you.