{ "episodeId": "SLP112", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "wiz": { "name": "- Wiz", "role": "guest", "tag": "-" }, "m52go": { "name": "m52go", "role": "guest", "tag": "M52GO" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.21, "text": "Hi and welcome to the Stephan Livera podcast focused on Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today we are talking about Bisq, a decentralized no KYC exchange. But first, let me introduce the sponsors of the show. So firstly, Kraken. Kraken are one of the world's leading Bitcoin exchanges. I'm really impressed with the way they operate. They have a real- Really strong focus on security and acting ethically in this space. They offer some of the best liquidity in the industry. They offer high trading volume and low fees with no minimum or hidden fees. Kraken have twenty four seven support and on the institutional and business solutions side, they are providing best in class accounting, reconciliation and reporting services for cryptocurrency hedge funds, asset managers and fund administrators. Kraken have an OTC desk for those higher touch large block trades. They offer five fiat currencies and also offer margin and futures trading. So to sign up, go to kraken dot com, there is a link in the show notes. Next, look into Unchained Capital. They are a Bitcoin financial services company and they're offering two main products, a multi-signature vault and a Bitcoin collateralized loan. So with the vault, you can use Trezor or Ledger wallets. It's a very simple web interface and in doing so, you can split up your keys and Keep control yourself with Unchained being the co-signer, the third key in that model, and Unchained also offer these Bitcoin collateralized loans, so you can get USD liquidity without selling your bitcoins. Now, this might be more tax efficient for you, meaning you don't trigger a capital gains event. So while that loan's outstanding, it's stored in a dedicated multi-signature address under collaborative custody. So if you wanna find out more, go to Unchained Dash Capital dot com, there's a link in the show notes. So today we're discussing Bisq, a decentralized exchange with no KYC. So you'll already know Wiz, my regular listeners will know him from episode seventy four, and we've also got Steve Jane, he is a contributor with Bisq. My view is we ultimately need a range of high quality options spanning from regulated KYC exchanges through to things like HodlHodl as a non-custodial business for Bitcoin trading and over to Bisq, a more decentralized way of trading Bitcoins. I think as hodlers, we want Bitcoin to be strong and resilient, or, or even anti-fragile, and I believe Bisq may be a part of that. So here's the interview. Wiz and Steve, welcome to the show. thanks for having us on. Yeah. Yeah, so look, my listeners are probably already familiar with Wiz from the earlier episode, but Steve, would you like to just take a minute and just tell us a bit about yourself?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "02:56", "start": 175.56, "text": "Sure. so I have a background in, I guess, finance and tech. I started my career with, GE Capital doing venture debt risk assessments, kind of like venture capital, but with, with, with debt. And so did, due diligence underwriting type work there. also worked in sales, enterprise sales for a little while, B2B business development type work. And then, I guess throughout that time had a, a toe in, development, ended up creating two of my own consumer-focused web apps, which I, still run today. And, yeah, for about the past year and a half, I've been contributing to Bisq. Mainly in communications oriented work, so, documentation, blogging, growth calls, speaking, that kind of thing. Today," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:46", "start": 226.31, "text": "I was really keen to discuss with you guys about Bisq because, you know, there's a lot to that, and it's about how can we essentially make Bitcoin more resilient, more strong, and- Yeah, so I guess, maybe just while we got you here, Wiz, did you wanna just give us a quick update on Bitcoiner or Shitcoiner?" }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "04:05", "start": 244.99, "text": "Yeah. I'm sure your listeners know me as, just another, toxic Bitcoin maximalist on Twitter, but, Yeah, on the last show we talked about the Bitcoiner Shitcoin website, and it's actually ready to go. So what I'll do is I'll time it to, be released at, when you, whenever you, release this podcast. But, yeah, basically I hate Shitcoiners, I hate crypto companies, I hate all these, scams, dude. I mean, they're all just like cheap knockoffs of Bitcoin that like tweak a couple parameters and add a narrative and millions of dollars of marketing budget and market maker wash trading bots and Yeah, dude, you know, they come to, to come to our meetup in Tokyo with their brochures and their t-shirts, and, you know, it's just, there's no place for, for companies in Bitcoin, right? Bitcoin is a community of individuals, and, if you're doing as company, that's You know, making your scam or whatever, I just, they just troll me in real life to my face all the time, right? 'Cause I think all the-- I mean, basically all companies are evil, right? I mean, like, it, it's like, you could start out as the most, best intention company, and through even no fault of your own, the government will just come knocking on your door and say, \"Hey, you have to do all these, you have to put all these backdoors in your app for us and spy on all your users for us, you know, because we're the government, we have guns, and we're gonna, you know, shut you down if you don't do it.\" And that's, that's what happens to a lot of, companies in the Bitcoin space, right? Like Shapeshift, for example, An account. And sure enough, a couple years later, yeah, actually mandatory account creation and mandatory full KYC, right? So even if you have the best intentions, just the fact that you're this centralized, company means that you're eventually gonna sell out your users at some point, even if you don't really want to. And, yeah, I mean, that, that happens all the time with Bitcoin, right? Like if you look at- BitPay was another good example with, BIP 70 where they, they used to be cool and then all of a sudden they add this, totally proprietary BIP 70 thing where you can't even get a Bitcoin address to pay them. And, Nikola, or Nicholas Dory, I should say, he, did that famous tweet where he said, \"You know, you've broken my trust, BitPay. I'm gonna make you obsolete.\" And, sure enough, he replaces this entire company. With millions of dollars of VC funding with an open source project, right? And, you know, implements the same API, and now users can just switch to BTC Pay server and even run it on a Raspberry Pi. And, that's what I, that's what I feel the real- Bitcoin, cyberpunk philosophies boil down to, right, it's like your, your hardware, your private keys, and just peacefully interacting with other individuals. That's, that's what Bitcoin is, a community of individuals, right? And there's no room for Companies, there's no room for, centralized exchanges, and I guess that's why we're working on Bisq, right, Steve?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "07:22", "start": 442.4, "text": "That's right." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "07:24", "start": 444.24, "text": "So yeah, I think," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:25", "start": 444.96, "text": "I, I guess I would say, I mean, for me, I'm, I'm not as like bearish on the idea of companies, but I agree with you that there is that vector, that angle for the government to try and control them, and that is typically where control can be exerted, and it, it's difficult. but, I definitely see, value in having Right? And you would have like some fully regulated companies, and then some, somewhere in the middle, like companies that are maybe, you know, somewhat centralized but using non-custodial, giving you non-custodial options, and then over on the other end, way out on this end, you've got Bisq, which is like the idea of trying to be maximum decentralized, such that there's no CEO, there's no, you know, one person that can be kind of taken out or, inf-influenced such that, the exchange can get compromised. Let's call it, or trading platform or whatever you wanna call it. But yeah, Wiz, I know you recently tweeted out a, a thread about Bisq and you were talking about the difference between Bisq and other ways of exchanging." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "08:27", "start": 507.38, "text": "Right. There's a lot of, basically fake decentralized, quote unquote, exchanges out there. And you, you know, I did this, tweet storm the other day about Bisq and sure enough, some, you know, some shitcoin scammers, spam replied my thread and they're like, \"Oh yeah, yeah Yeah, it's, it's Bisq and this other decentralized exchange that you've never heard of. And so I click on the link, and sure enough, on the website, they have this about our company thing at the bottom. And it's like, if it's a centralized company, how the hell are these guys decentralized, right? you know, Bisq is an actual, Decentralized community. There's no company, there's no servers, everything is, peer-to-peer run over Tor. It's for the users, by the users. There's no shareholders that we're reporting to, there's no government jurisdiction that we have to, you know, comply to any KYC regulations. And, if, if you take some other crypto exchanges Quite often they get paid, a ton of money to list all these, shit coins and shell them to our users. And I've actually had like some ICO scammers contacting me, they're like, \"Hey, I wanna list my shit coin on Bisq,\" and I'm like, \"Dude, like, we're a community of individuals. Why would we wanna scam ourselves with your shit coin? That just makes zero sense.\" And they don't really get it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:46", "start": 585.7, "text": "Steve, did you wanna add a-any of your own thoughts around, what Bisq is, what, what" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "09:52", "start": 592.1, "text": "Yeah, I guess maybe if I could just add a little bit about what Wiz said, about, about companies. I mean, there was a tweet that Meltem Demir has had a couple day or two ago, that I found kind of interesting. She's, she was talking about how the, the, some of the, the basic principles of, of Bitcoin Where, you know, or are sovereignty, privacy, getting rid of rent seeking and that kind of thing. But then she attached a picture, and I-- By the way, I don't mean to dunk on her, I just think it's a cool, thing to point out. she attached a picture with, some of the, the big companies in the space and how much they're worth now, and she was like, \"We should take a look, a hard look at what we've built because a lot of the value in our industry is being captured by these intermediaries.\" And it just kind of s-- it stuck out to me because, If, if you kind of look at it in one way, the whole point of a company is to be an intermediary. You have investors and you have customers, and the whole point is to serve your investors By providing some kind of a product or service to your customers. And so the fact that they're accumulating capital and, kind of sitting in the middle and being intermediaries shouldn't be a surprise. And so when I think about Bisq, it's like what said, a community of individuals, you know, connected through a peer-to-peer network, much like if you run a Bitcoin node, you are kind of in a way your own bank, right? You, you have full control over transactions, you have the whole blockchain, that only- that, that, that, you know, allows you full control. Bisq, in the same way, is like you're kind of becoming your own exchange. I think a lot of people think about exchanges as a service provided to you by another entity, but the, the Bisq model is that you become that entity and you have full control over how you wanna exchange and what you wanna exchange and, on what terms you wanna do that." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "11:48", "start": 707.81, "text": "Yeah, that's a really good point. if Bitcoin allows everyone to be their own bank, then Bisq allows everyone to be their own Bitcoin exchange. That's, that's a really great way to sum it up. And, Bisq is a lot like Lightning. It's, it's really this layer two system that's built on top of Bitcoin. You know, it has its own peer-to-peer network just like Lightning does. And, but, but instead of trade channels, I'm sorry, instead of payment channels, you have trade channels. So when you- You, you trade with people, you know, you open up a on-chain transaction with them, and everything goes into this multi-sig, very secure way of trading, and after you get the, fiat currency payment from them, and you, you confirm everything's secured, then you can release the funds to them. And, there's- There's just so many, similarities between, Lightning and Bisq, like from a very high level. I'm sure it's not like the, the most hundred percent, technically accurate analogy to use, but I like to think of, I like to explain it to new users by saying Bisq is like another layer two system for Bitcoin. And then Steve, you wanna, wanna go" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "12:56", "start": 775.94, "text": "into the why Bisq? Yes, I guess when we think about why Bisq, we kind of usually approach it from three perspectives. So there's the security aspect, the privacy aspect, and then the freedom or censorship resistance aspect. I guess for security, the things to, to mention here is of course, you own, you have full, full control of your Bitcoin. It's not, it's a non-custodial service. there's a, there's a wallet built right into the software where you, you can use to fund your, your trades. So there's a deposit re-uh, required for each transaction that you do on Bisq. the Bitcoin for those deposits comes right from your wallet, not your keys, not your Bitcoin, right?" }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "13:41", "start": 821.06, "text": "So how about from a privacy point of view as well? Yeah, I guess the, the privacy is pretty solid because the core component is that you're running your Bisq node on your own hardware. And so you don't have an account, you just have a cryptographic identity, just like with Bitcoin, you don't have a Bitcoin account, you just have a Bitcoin wallet. And so in your, your Bisq wallet, you know, you're- Your node is, only accessible through a Tor hidden service, and so your quote-unquote account, if you wanna think about it like that, is just a string of random numbers and letters. There's no You know, you don't put your name, Bisq doesn't ask what your social security number is or anything like this, and there's no IP addresses being leaked since, you know, use of Tor is mandatory. It's funny the other day, I think it was Local Bitcoins had this warning message on their website that said if you use Tor Oh, there's a risk that you might, you know, lose your bitcoins. I thought that was bullshit. You should be required to use Tor when trading your, your Bitcoin, otherwise there's a risk that you might leak some privacy information, right? And so Bisq really tries to, Correctly respect the user's security, privacy, and freedom in order to be just completely censorship resistant, you know, government resistant, capital control resistant, you know, like for example, in Japan You can, the centralized exchanges in Japan can only trade the coins that the government allows them to trade. so for example, if you wanna buy Monero, in Japan The only way to buy it is with Bisq, simply because it's, you know, it has privacy, so the government thinks it's bad because it can't, you know, do blockchain analysis on the, the people. But of course, Bisq is, Financial self-sovereignty, so you can, you can trade whatever you want on there. That, that being said, there's a, there is a no scam policy and a no B-cash policy on Bisq, so we don't allow ICOs or, B-cash. But, yeah, I mean, if, if Bitcoin is the separation of money and state, then Bisq is the separation of trading and state, right? We don't want, we don't want the government interfering in our private trades with other, you know, individuals in our Bitcoin community. That, that's just none of their business, and they shouldn't be infringing our, our rights to privacy and freedom." }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "16:02", "start": 961.58, "text": "Yeah, point of, point of, trivia, the, the Bisq is kind of the, the second name, so the original name of Bisq was BitSquare, which was supposed to be a, play on the terms Satoshi Square. so the whole idea was that people, you know, they should be able to meet up Just as they would in person, they should be able to meet up digitally to do trades without any kind of interference. That's the whole idea from the beginning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:25", "start": 985.39, "text": "That's a bit of background on, I guess, the ethos of Bisq, why Bisq. I, I'm interested now to just talk through the flow, how does it work, right? So I've had an opportunity to use Bisq, I've tried just doing a small buy, and essentially what I found was that you basically down, you go to Bisq dot network, you download the software, you install it, you Basically, you, I think you, you make a password and that, I think that encrypts your Bisq wallet and so on. Steve, did you ma- did you wanna just talk through the flow in terms of what it looks like to, say, buy bitcoins using Bisq?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "17:06", "start": 1026.45, "text": "Sure. So like you said, you, you go to the website, you download the software. once you, have it running, you-- the first thing you wanna do is deposit some Bitcoin. so every, every trade on Bisq, like I said, requires, security deposit, just, mainly to incentivize traders to follow through on their ends of the deal. So if you're buying Bitcoin, you're gonna put, you're gonna need, a certain percentage of however much you're looking to buy. it's usually a small amount, it's sometimes a bit of a, a hurdle for new, like for people who don't have any Bitcoin. we have some suggestions on the, on the side in our, in our docs for like, for, for newbies to, to get started. But if you have a little bit of Bitcoin, you can put it in the Bisq wallet and Either make or take an offer. This is a little bit of a new concept for, for people coming from centralized exchanges, because, there is no order book per se. There is no like server somewhere saying, \"Here, here are the orders that are available on Bisq and offering them to you to buy.\" The orders that you see, or the offers that you see on Bisq are Offers from other people on Bisq at that very moment. So they're being sourced from other peers on the network, and you're seeing them as one order book, but they're actually from a bunch of other people. so when you see an offer you like, you accept the offer, and you're asked to fund your wallet with, the deposit, trading fees, and mining fees. mining fees to, fund the multi-signature, transaction that will include your, the- Deposit fees and the seller's deposit and fees. And, yeah, once that deposit or once that, transaction confirms You send your payment, payments, fiat payments are sent out of band, so Bisq doesn't actually integrate with any fiat payment methods. You actually send your payment through your bank or your, wheth-however you, you've decided to, to pay for the Bitcoin, and then you tell Bisq that you've sent the payment, and then once The seller sees the payment come through in their bank, they, they tell Bisq like, \"Yeah, I received this payment. two key, two of the three keys, are signed, and the funds are released to, to each party.\" Got it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:31", "start": 1170.96, "text": "And that's how it works. Great. And so I guess just to talk that through then for the listeners, it's basically at the point where you accept that offer, you need to basically, your Bisq client is kind of spending that into a multi-signature, two of three, output, and then once it's all kind of ready to be released, that's when it, you get your Bitcoin that you're buying, for example. Right. So I guess let's just Talk, talk a little bit about, the zero start problem there, right? It can be a bit difficult for a first time user because one thing I notice is that you actually need Bitcoin to buy Bitcoin, right? So it's, it's a little bit difficult for a first time user. Can you talk through some of your thoughts there? What, what are the, some of the ways that a user might get around that?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "20:18", "start": 1218.09, "text": "Well, there are a couple things. I mean, they're not, they may not be ideal. I mean, you could, you could always go to friends and family. So if you have friends or family into Bitcoin, you probably already know they're into Bitcoin, they probably can't stop talking about it, so you kind of know who to go to. but, yeah, you could go to, an ATM. A lot of ATMs don't require KYC for, for small amount, for small amounts. you can work for it, you know, find a project or maybe a gig that's looking to, you know, to pay Bitcoin for, for a little bit of work. you know, maybe meet-- local meetups are another way too. If you have any events going on in your area, then, you know, finding people that way can be willing to- Sell you a little bit of Bitcoin. yeah, so there, I think if you really want Bitcoin in this day and age, you know, there's, if there's a will, there's a way you can find, 'cause you don't need a whole lot to start out with." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:07", "start": 1267.49, "text": "Yeah, so as I understand, at least for the Australian system, it was point o one or a little bit over point o one Bitcoin or about one, a little bit over one million Sats that you need to basically do the buy of point o one, and Yeah, so I, I, it might be interesting as well just to talk through the flow. Are there any key differences to call out there if the user is doing, say, a bank transfer versus an in-person meetup? Is there any key differences there or not really?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "21:36", "start": 1295.51, "text": "it's probably mostly logistical. I mean, if you're doing it in person, of course, you have to, you know, meet somebody in person. There's kind of a different set of, I guess guidelines or things you wanna think about if you're meeting a stranger to, to do a transaction like this. bank transfer is something you could possibly do online, you know, don't have to go through the hassle of, so it could be quicker. then of course you have considerations of, a bank knowing that you're doing such a, or possibly knowing, they don't know, but there's a possibility that they, that they could guess that you're doing such a transaction, and some banks are more okay with that than others. It's a, it's, it's a, there are pros and cons to each." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:17", "start": 1337.34, "text": "Got it. and is there some sort of reputation system in Bisq? And, I noticed there are also some restrictions at the start, so can you talk a little bit about the lifting of those and reputation system?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "22:32", "start": 1352.43, "text": "Yeah, so I guess reputation to be, I guess in one way there isn't really a reputation system in Bisq. essentially You have-- there are no accounts, you have, you have payment accounts that you've, that you've put into Bisq, as, as ways to do transactions. These payment accounts are rated by age, so the older your payment account, the more of an allowance you have to trade or the bigger your trade sizes can be. The only semblance of reputation that there really is is that you can see the number of times you've done a trade with a particular onion address. so not a particular person, because a person can change their onion address whenever they want." }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "23:20", "start": 1399.91, "text": "The restrictions that you mentioned are in place right now because of some incidents earlier in the year, with, stolen bank accounts? And so in major markets, we limited trade sizes to point oh one Bitcoin to, as a temporary measure to get around these, these, these issues that we were having. We're working on, some account signing mechanisms to, I don't know if I would call it reputation, but to, to, to ensure, to, to, to provide more confidence in the network that people, people's payment accounts are actually their payment accounts. so basically what's gonna happen is people are going to," }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "24:07", "start": 1446.78, "text": "so accounts before March 1st of this year Are, we're confident that they're, that they're, trustworthy. Those accounts are gonna be signed by Bisq's arbitrators, and accounts after March 1st are gonna have to Verify, I don't, I don't wanna sound like, KYC, they're basically gonna have to, as long as they haven't had a chargeback, they'll be, counted as, good and signed by people who are signed before, and then at that point, their trade limits will be lifted." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "24:44", "start": 1484.1, "text": "Yeah, I think the, the, entire concept of reputation system goes against the, you know, fundamental philosophical principle of respecting the user's privacy, right? Like a reputation system is basically the opposite of respecting the user's privacy, and so it's actually very, very difficult to implement a privacy, I'm sorry, reputation system system, you know, and, and even more so in a decentralized way, right? Like we don't have any servers, we're, we're trying to remove, you know, we're trying to make the system more decentralized, not- More centralized. And so, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few, kind of lame, you know, restrictions right now on a, on a few payment method types that maybe had some, frauds or, you know, just-- But I think for the most part, if you stick to using payment methods that don't have a chargeback risk, so, or if you, You know, like face-to-face cash, there's no, limit, right? Or, I'm sorry, the limit is like two Bitcoin or something very, and, and obviously if you're meeting the person face-to-face, you can just- You know, do whatever transaction you wanna do anyway. But, the, you know, the, the point is that we're trying to implement this system without sacrificing the user's privacy. And so, that it's kind of like Bitcoin, right? Like, remember in the early days of Bitcoin, you ever used Bitcoin QT? It was like the ugliest app ever. You know, it's like a lot of the stuff could only be done on, on the command line. But the, the point was If Bitcoin wanted to just onboard a whole bunch of users, you know, it could've just added some kind of centralized feature. The whole point of Bitcoin is to be decentralized, so yeah, the UX suffers as a result. And fortunately, this is something that gets improved over time. Right now, we have, you know, probably ten or twenty different Bitcoin wallets on the app store you can just install instantly on your phone. And there's, there's all these really cool hardware wallets and, and, you know, full node products that coming out that make Bitcoin so easy to use for newbie users, even, you know, just plug and play out of the box while still respecting their security, privacy, and freedom. So I think over time Bisq will become even, you know, Bisq will even remove the arbitrators, it'll remove all these, silly trade restrictions and, and, amount limits, and it'll continue to respect the user's privacy, even, even more so, right? And so it'll, it'll improve over time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:18", "start": 1637.74, "text": "Okay, got it. And I think a, another thing listeners will want to understand is just the flow in the case of an unsuccessful trade, or let's say, I guess, let me just make a hypothetical up. Let's say I accept an offer to buy from someone, and then I-- it, it says, you know, Pay, you know, whatever, hundred and fifty dollars to this bank account, and let's say I'm a dodgy person, I didn't actually transfer a hundred and fifty dollars to that account, and then I tick, yes, I did. And, you know, how, how would-- what's the flow there in the, in the, you know, the non-happy path? Can you just talk to that for us, Steve?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "27:59", "start": 1679.01, "text": "Yeah, so there, essentially, you would have to prove to a dispute resolution contributor that you actually have not received the payment. so the reason I'm, I'm a little vague about that because the, the mechanism to do this has changed quite significantly in the past couple of weeks, just I think, one point one point six, which is I think released two weeks ago now. So it used to be that arbitrators were the primary means of dispute resolution on Bisq, and they had that third key in the multisig, transaction. that's still the case for a little bit longer, but recently we introduced mediators. So what would happen in that case is, first you would try to resolve the issue directly with the trader through Trader Chat. So Trader Chat was just recently added and intended for people to solve little problems directly with the trader. if you're really dodgy and you'd, you know, no help in the, the Trader Chat, then you would open a case with a mediator. mediator is, somebody who's put up a bond, they're fairly trusted, but they don't have a key in the, in the multisig. They're merely somebody who looks at your problem, understands your side of the case, and then makes a suggestion for a payout. So if they conclude that you are dodgy and the other person is honest, then they'll suggest that you get the, the funds in the deposit, in the, in the multisig wallet and that the other person who's being dodgy doesn't. if both people accept that suggestion and the trade is over, the funds go to the right people and, and everything's done. if that doesn't work out either, then an arbitrator who has that third key will take another look at the situation And, and make a decision, and whatever they decide is authoritative because they have that third key, and they'll, direct funds as they think appropriate." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "29:57", "start": 1797.41, "text": "And I just wanna add that, most of the transactions or the trades that go to arbitrate, or mediation or arbitration, are not, you know, evil scammers trying to rip people off, they're just, newbies who made innocent mistakes, and, you know, they pushed the wrong button or they gotta resync their app or something, and they normally get worked Without, without the arbitrator having to actually enforce anything, right? And that's why the introduction of mediators, I think, is gonna be a very helpful. But, you know, for the most part, all the trades just go through fine without any problems. I never had any problems." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:34", "start": 1833.91, "text": "Okay, great. And I guess in terms of disclosing and privacy and so on, I guess just for the users and the listeners to think through, what are they disclosing? I guess in the case that you are selling bitcoins on the app, you would have to put your bank account details if you want to use bank account transfer. So then that's the information that the buyer is going to see, w- because it'll say, \"Please transfer whatever hundred dollars, a hundred fifty dollars into X, Y, and Z account with this name.\" So, I guess that's- That's just for the listeners, make sure these are the things you, you, you kind of understand. That's what you're kind of-- That limited, to the limited extent that you're doxing yourself to one individual who accepts the offer, that's the extent." }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "31:14", "start": 1873.52, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a, that's a, I'm glad you brought that up. I think that's an important thing to underline, 'cause a lot of people, they, they, they- See that you gotta put your bank account information in the software, and they kinda go, \"Oh, well, like I'm doxing myself, this is KYC, I might as well trade somewhere else.\" but the, the reality is, it's just going to that one other peer. It's not Going to a central company, it's not being persisted in any database somewhere out in the internet. it's stored locally on your machine and only sent to your trading peer once that deposit, transaction confirms, and then only they see it, nobody else does. Great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:50", "start": 1910.45, "text": "And now Wiz, I think let's bring it back to you, because I know you were recently doing a lot of work to try and basically build up the volume in Bisq in Japan. So tell us a little bit about your experience there. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "32:04", "start": 1924.14, "text": "this is something that I've been working on for the past few months. so of course we had, you know, I, I kind of organized the local meetup in Tokyo, and a few months ago, local bitcoins, I guess, got shut down by the government in terms of anonymous cash trades, and now they have mandatory KYC and all this stuff. And so my local, you know, Bitcoin community guys are like, \"Hey, you know, like, how should we trade peer to peer now?\" And, You know, I started researching and then I, I heard about, Bisq, and I was like, \"Oh, this looks, this looks, kind of interesting,\" but, you know, I was, I was a little skeptical at first, right, Steve? Like, I think I jumped on the one of their growth calls at like four AM my local time, and, you know, s-- you know, I'm, I'm a pretty toxic maximalist, I'm like, \"You know, what is this?\" you know, but," }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "33:02", "start": 1982.47, "text": "Actually, legitimately, you know, in line with the cyberpunk philosophies of Bitcoin and everything. And, so, you know, I started working to basically localize the app for Japan, right? So, first of all, I had a, a good friend of mine, who's a native Japanese speaker, helped me translate the app and Bisq website also into Japanese. And, yeah, that's pretty straightforward translations, but, the next big step was adding the- Local Japanese back, bank transfer, as a payment method into the app. And so I had to like research with the Bank of Japan how the, interbank transfers work and actually added all like five hundred banks in Japan into the Bisq app now. So if you have a Japanese bank account, you can configure it in there and, you know over the past few months, I've been kind of shilling it to my local Bitcoin community as like, \"Hey, this is how we should trade Bitcoin. You know, we shouldn't use the, you know, we should just use this 'cause this is, 'cause this is totally awesome.\" And, I guess, let's see, a few days ago, last Thursday, we had what's called a liquidity party where I think like five, five guys all made like two or three offers each, and sure enough, we have like ten offers on the, the JPY offer book on Bisq right now. I can't believe it, like it's happening, you know? Like the community is now decentralized. Like a week ago, everyone was using, KYC, now they're free. Now they're, you know, they have their freedom back, they have their privacy, and, Some of the guys are actually, you know, they, they're gonna be market makers and, they're gonna probably make like three, four, five percent profit on each trade, which isn't bad, you know, for a thousand dollar trade, you make like fifty bucks profit, and you're protecting your, local community members' privacy in the process, right? So we're all just collectively opting out of using the centralized Bitcoin exchanges in Japan and Just, or more, you know, organizing our local community of individuals to trade with each other, and, so far it's, it's beautiful, and, you know, got real people with real money, and they, they love it, you know? They love it. They're like, they're all in here with fake names like Johnny or I think there's two guys named Satoshi on here, you know, like, I, you know, I, I'm sure they're all guys in my meetup group, but I actually don't even know who" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:34", "start": 2134.13, "text": "them to use Bisq. I suppose someone who hasn't used it before, how, how did you kind of walk them through that?" }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "35:41", "start": 2140.66, "text": "So I kind of took it from the top and explained how Bisq is basically a layer two system. It has a peer to peer network, everything is routed through Tor. You're essentially running a Bisq node on your computer when you install the Bisq app, and, You know, they, they, they're all Bitcoiners, so they get that pretty quick, and they understand the concept of trading peer-to-peer with no KYC, so they got that pretty quick. it was, it was, just a matter of doing a few live trades on stage at the meetup, you know, calling some, guys up from the audience and, and having them trade with me live in front of everybody, and, you know, once, once I just kind of pushed them to install the, the app and, and do a few trades, they That's all it took. It's, it's, it's like if you get Bitcoin and you try Bisq, you'll get Bisq. It's the exact same philosophical principles at work." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:37", "start": 2196.78, "text": "Right. And it's basically just one app, right? okay, so there's, I understand there's like a new trade protocol coming, Steve, did you wanna touch on that?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "36:47", "start": 2206.67, "text": "Yeah, I, I, I guess I could. I don't know too much about the, the details, but I can say that the, the intention is to- Is to make Bisq a little bit more flexible, and so essentially it's gonna be off-chain. this is like far into the future, but we wanna basically allow people to trade. Bitcoin, where the, where the security comes from, BSQ bonds. maybe, should we maybe talk about the, the DAO and the BSQ first, there's a little bit more context? Yeah, let's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:22", "start": 2241.74, "text": "do that. So, yeah, let's just, can you just give us an overview on how Bisq is developed then?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "37:27", "start": 2247.0, "text": "Yeah, so the Bisq network, so we've talked so far about the Bisq network from the perspective of users, how it's a peer-to-peer network and, you know, each person is their own kind of sovereign- node participating in this network to trade how they want. the contributor side of Bisq is also a network. I think that's a, something that important for people to, to understand and Meaning that it's not a company, it's not e-an organization, or a legal entity of any kind. It's literally a network of sovereign individuals who choose to contribute to the network. And as a result, the traditional ways of organizing, an operation don't really apply. We, we, we wanted to make it so that the The project could sustain itself with minimal designated leaders. In fact, there are no designated leaders in the Bisq network, and so the two main Things to do here are funding and governance. So strategy needs to be figured out, the way forward for the project, how it develops, what it develops, need to be figured out, and funding. people are gonna work on this with any sort of consistency and reliability, there's gotta be a way to, to pay them. To keep them around and keep them contributing, and the basic ingredients are there, meaning that the, you know, traders pay trading fees, and so there is a f-stream of revenue, but the question was, how do we get that revenue? Two contributors on merit. And so that's the founding, the foundational idea of the Bisq DAO and the BSQ token. essentially- Wait a minute," }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "39:18", "start": 2357.61, "text": "BSQ token? Is that a shitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "39:21", "start": 2360.81, "text": "Oh! No, actually. So B S Q, actually, thanks for calling me out, the token is probably not a great word. It's colored Bitcoin. so essentially when you trade or when you contribute to Bisq You are, you make a compensation request, you ask the network for compensation for what you've done, and that you, you get BSQ, you, you basically issued BSQ, I guess maybe it's probably not worth going into the details of how that, of how all that happens, but you essentially put in a few satoshis with your request, and those satoshis get colored to be worth the amount that you earn doing the work, and then you sell that BSQ to traders looking to trade. On the Bisq network, and the reason they buy that BSQ is because trades made with BSQ as trading fees cost less. So there's a built-in economy of people looking to use the software And people looking to contribute to the software, and the BSQ colored Bitcoin is what allows that economy to, to work. Yeah, I think when-- And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:29", "start": 2428.66, "text": "I think the, sorry, I think the obvious question at this point, listeners would wanna know, is why" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "40:33", "start": 2432.98, "text": "not plain Bitcoin? I think the best way to answer that, I mean, there's a lot of reasons, but I think the best way to answer that is, is, it's a logistical problem. if you used plain Bitcoin, that Bitcoin, like, so before the DAO launched actually, for the first three years That this was around, trading fees were only paid with plain Bitcoin. But the problem with that was that all those fees went to one wallet, one or two wallets. Because, I mean, Bitcoin wallets have to be owned by somebody, and so what you had was these enormous amount of fees piling up in these wallets, but you had a lot more contributors than just the people who owned those wallets, right? So you had a whole team, you had a whole team, whole team of developers, you had people doing growth initiatives and support and all kinds of things, but they weren't seeing any of that Bitcoin. Now, you could say, well, the people who owned those wallets could simply have taken a portion of the Bitcoin and distributed to the, distributed to the people who Then you would have a central point of failure, right? You would have like the entire viability of the network would be reliant on those people to, distribute that Bitcoin fairly and regularly. but what the BSQ token does is it allows that distribution, that collection and distribution, to be decentralized, so that no one person is in charge of figuring out how much somebody has earned and actually Giving them that compensation." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "41:58", "start": 2518.45, "text": "I think my understanding of, and, and, you know, Stephan knows I'm one of the biggest, shitcoin, critics out here. And actually, Steve, I'm sure you remember when I first started talking to you, I was like, \"BSQ, what is this shitcoin, man? I don't, I don't want to know this.\" Oh, I remember. And, so now, actually, after I studied Bisq quite a bit, I realized that For any other type of business, you could just create a, a centralized, company. You know, if you're selling, I don't know, steaks on the internet, if you're selling beef on the internet, yeah, you would just make a company and you would accept Bitcoin and that would work. But the problem is that these evil governments of the world really want to regulate trading of Bitcoin. And so the reason why Bisq can't be a company It has to be this decentralized organization, is so it ha-- is so, you know, the contributors have plausible deniability about who is actually, quote unquote, operating the exchange, right? And of course, it's, it's kind of like Bitcoin in the sense that nobody's really operating, it's a peer-to-peer network, right? Each individual user is trading with another individual user. But the purpose of the BSQ colored Bitcoin is for the voting rights, right? I mean, if, if, if you're running a business, you need- We need this way to make decisions, for example, should we ban B-Cash? Should we, you know, add this, ICO scam or not? And so if you have the BSQ colored Bitcoin, then you can, use that to vote, and you can also, let contributors color their own satoshis into the BSQ colored Bitcoin with the consent of the, you know, entire decentralized organization voting to approve Move that request to color new coins. So if I do a pull request into the Bisq repository, I can then make a proposal to, compensation request to, color some of my own Bitcoin as BSQ and If the DAO approves, if the decentralized organization votes to approve my compensation request, okay, great, now I have some BSQ and I can actually, you know, either hold it or I can, sell it to the cut, the, the users of Bisq and they can use it to pay their trading fees on the exchange. And so in that sense, the Bisq traders who buy the BS, the colored BSQ from me are directly compensating me for my contributions to the Bisq software Or, or to, you know, the website or whatever, work I did. And this is a really beautiful system of both governance voting and, compensation and, and also if, if we wanna, change a parameter in the Bisq network, like if we wanna increase the trading fees or something, the BSQ, voting can also just, programmatically have all the nodes adjust like a certain parameter. And it's this really beautiful, governance system. They could, they could probably be, adopted to other use cases as well outside of Bisq. But, I actually, shout out to Mr. Hodel, he, he's another hardcore toxic maximalist, and he tweeted out something, he tweeted out some horrible things at the Bisq developers, like, \"What is this shit coin?\" And sure enough, he eventually came around too. He's like, \"Actually, BSQ is the first legitimate, quote unquote, token use case that I've ever seen.\" And actually, Mr. Hodel is Surprisingly, even the most toxic, Bitcoin maximalists are okay with the BSQ colored Bitcoin because they see why it's okay. They see why this is the one legitimate token in a sea of tens of thousands of scam tokens, right?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "45:56", "start": 2755.73, "text": "If, if I could just add real quick, I mean, you mentioned how, you know, not having a legal entity enables Bisq to be sovereign as an operation. I just want to add that it also- Extends the idea of user sovereignty, because Bisq is actually software that gives its users a, a Well defined path to helping define its future. Right, so I, when I talked about the BSQ token, I focused on the, the funding aspect and compensation aspect and trading fees. Wiz mentioned the governance aspect for strategy. And I just want to make clear that that, that also extends to users. So any user who has acquired BSQ or works for BSQ, can also now have a say in the strategy of the software they use. Which if you've ever been banned on Twitter or, or any other social network, you have no say. You use the software, you rely on it all the time, but you have no say in how it actually works. Bisq with the DAO and the token, the colored Bitcoin, is, looking to change that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:59", "start": 2819.37, "text": "So as I There's multiple components or aspects around this BSQ thing, and look, I, you know, just so the listeners are aware, I've never held any BSQ, I hold zero, I'm not, shilling it, but I just wanna summarize my understanding of it. So as you're saying, it has some component of use in voting, in the, you know, decisions made, on the Bisq network and the Bisq software, as you will, and it's also used for compensation. So is that correct? Yeah. Okay, got it. Alright, so look, I guess that's, that's, yeah, I guess that's B-S-Q, and the other, I guess the other point is, you can use Bisq without ever touching B-S-Q, right? You can just literally just go on there and just buy and sell and just pay your fee in Bitcoin, right?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "47:42", "start": 2862.24, "text": "Yeah, that's true. That's, it's good we" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:44", "start": 2863.9, "text": "highlight that, yeah. No, no obligation. Right. okay, so look, we've, we've spoken a little bit about the DAO, did you wanna touch on, the trade protocol off-chain component? 'Cause I'm not too clear on that." }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "47:58", "start": 2877.53, "text": "Yeah, I guess, I don't know, Wiz, if you wanna jump in, I don't, I'm not too familiar with this, but I, I guess now that we've talked about the Bisq token" }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "48:04", "start": 2884.19, "text": "Sure. So obviously the V2 protocol is still very early in the, discussion proposal phase, but the general idea is that arbitrators are a bad idea because they are literally trusted third parties. They are the weakest link, they are the central point of failure, they are the, security hole. You know, I could go on and on. We have to remove arbitrators from Bisq for a number of reasons. They're also very expensive. you know, 'cause it's very time consuming and it's a very trusted role, and if they make a mistake or if the government goes after them, you know, for, for all these reasons. And so to increase the, the decentralization of the entire, Bisq network and peer-to-peer network, we just wanna remove arbitrators. And this is, of course, easier said than done. Because right now they're such a, critical part of the, the trade protocol. But essentially, the Bisq v2 trade protocol would use a two-of-two multisig instead of a two-of-three multisig, and so you would only have the powerless mediators to, resolve issues if they ar- if they arise. And in the event of a dispute, or, or maybe I should back up a little bit. The, the, there's actually gonna be a little bit more barrier to entry. So right now, if you wanna do a trade on the The current trade protocol, you have to put up like a ten percent security deposit to, buy Bitcoin. You need a little bit of Bitcoin to buy Bitcoin, or if you're gonna sell, Bitcoin, you have to put in a little, you have to put everything into the escrow. But this is going to, change in the V2 protocol to be, bonded. So in order to- and this is maybe a little bit, like lightning in a sense, is, is that you actually have to, create a bond on Bisq before you'll have any trading limit. So for example, if you have a thousand dollar bond, that means you could do up to one thousand dollars worth of simultaneous trades on Bisq. And If you scam somebody, the mediator of your trade dispute could go to the, the DAO, the decentralized community, and say, \"Hey, we should revoke this guy's bond because he scammed this guy.\" And the entire community could vote on it, and, this way the," }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "50:28", "start": 3028.31, "text": "the, the role formerly known as arbitrator would, essentially get this bond from the, from the Bisq community, and, he would comp- he would reimburse, the- how do you say, disgraced party, whoever got scammed. And, this, I think, really goes to the decentralized nature of, of Bisq, right? It, it really maximizes the value of the DAO itself and the, the BSQ voting, structure, everything to remove the, quote-unquote weakest link. And, the other second big change in the, in the V2 trade protocol is that it's going to be, the, the Bitcoin trade wallet Be removed from the Bisq app. And so, I think the way we're gonna implement it is that we're going to, right now we're adding the API, into the Bisq app, so it's probably gonna be something like Bitcoin Core in the sense that you'll have Bisq D and Bisq CLI, and you'll also have this RPC API. And this will allow us to do a number of things, like develop a mobile app that connects to your computer at home running Bisq or your Raspberry Pi at home running Bisq, something like this, which we currently don't Importantly, it'll allow us to, for example, there's, there's a lot of, Monero community traders right now that want to, integrate Monero wallet into Bisq somehow. And I said the best way to do that is with the API. And so when you're trading with Bisq, if you wanna send Monero to someone or if you wanna send Bitcoin to someone, you shouldn't be required to use the Bisq wallet. You should be able to use a Trezor or some, you know, Casa A node, epic multisig setup, whatever you want, because that's really outside of the scope of Bisq, right? The real primary purpose of Bisq is to connect traders directly with each other in a private and, freedom-oriented way. And so by adding this API, it allows the V2 trade protocol to eliminate the Bitcoin trade wallet, and then this will allow you to settle trades in Lightning, for example. So this is why it's, also known as the off-chain protocol is because current- Mainly the, the trade protocol uses four multisig on-chain transactions, which right now is okay because the blocks are empty, but as the blocks get full and the mempool fees go up, one trade on Bisq would be very expensive with the current trade protocol. So the other solution for just scaling Bisq in general is to not use four multisig transactions, to let the trade parties use whatever they want to settle the transaction, and this will allow them to use Lightning, or other off-chain settlement. Moment, which, you know, will allow Bisq to really scale." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:18", "start": 3198.32, "text": "Okay, cool. I suppose the other question I have at that point is just around the scalability of the model, if it requires the DAO to vote on every potential arbitrate-- or what was previously arbitrated, how, how is, is that gonna become a bit difficult for the DAO to all vote on that sort of thing?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "53:39", "start": 3219.18, "text": "You mean, in the context of dispute resolution or--" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:42", "start": 3222.46, "text": "Yeah, sorry, in the, in, like-- So let's say a dispute, like, you know, let's say, you know, a few years from now, a lot of people are using Bisq, and just with the, you know, kind of the law of large numbers, there's a lot of disputes going on. Would every single dispute that gets to that point have to now get voted on by the DAO? How scalable is that?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "54:00", "start": 3239.76, "text": "It's a good question. So the intention is that Such occurrences would be very low, so we don't want-- so if, if there's any more than like one case that has to be decided upon, one dispute case has-- that has to be decided on by the DAO, one a month would probably be too much. It, it should be a very rare occurrence, even at scale, the intention is that through trader chat, through mediation, that, that disputes are largely solved, and that Arbitration cases that go to the DAO for a decision are exceedingly rare. And we're not gonna be there immediately, I mean, it's gonna take time, I mean, I'm, I'm sure at first we'll have a little bit more than we want, but I think, you know, those are bugs that we'll have to work out, and then over time, the intention is that they're, they'll just be very rare." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "54:53", "start": 3292.51, "text": "Yeah, I, I think a lot of the structure of Bisq is to prevent disputes from happening in the first place. And so, for example, if you're putting up a thousand dollar bond just to be able to trade on Bisq, you know, scammers aren't gonna put up their own money and then just to try and scam people for the e-equal amount of money or even less back, right? It just doesn't make any, sense. The financial incentives and financial disincentives are in place, 'cause, 'cause that's really how crypto anarchy systems work Or any other, system, you have to-- in a crypto anarchy, you have to financially incentivize good behavior and financially disincentivize dishonest behavior. And, it'll be like a real exception case if something has to go, if, if a bond has to be confiscated. So far on the, on the Bisq DAO, correct me if I'm wrong, no bonds have ever been confiscated, right? No, not yet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:45", "start": 3344.72, "text": "Okay, cool. yeah, look, so I mean, from my point of view, I, I guess I'm sort of still on the fence a little bit about the BSQ token, but I'm kind of like, I still would like to see decentralized, no KYC exchange. So, personally, I don't hold any BSQ, I'm not shilling it, but I'm probably willing to turn a blind eye to it and just be like, \"Alright, that's cool, just whatever,\" and, you know, if people wanna use it, The fully KYC exchanges, and you'll have people somewhere in the middle, you'll have people like HodlHodl, right? They're centralized and non-custodial, and then over on this end, we'll have Bisq, right? It's like properly decentralized, and there are certain things that have to be done to make that happen, and that if that includes the BSQ and the DAO, that's probably, that's all there can be done. but I think then the question is just around, what are your thoughts around driving Bisq adoption then, if you" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "56:44", "start": 3403.52, "text": "I guess you gotta do more, you gotta have more Wizzes. You gotta have people who are willing to, you know, put in the work. I know Wiz has been working tirelessly on the, the Japanese market, on the, the website translations, the, the program itself, the Bisq software translations, holding events to educate people. you know, having groups, he has, I know he has a key base group for, for Tokyo to, get people, keep people in the loop communication-wise and Yeah, so I guess that's kind of what we'll need, I think, for global adoption in, in, in multiple languages, multiple regions, just people on the ground, doing what they can. and then also of course, contr-- I think contribution and like development is a big part of it too. I mean, this new V2 trade protocol, is, is gonna require a lot of work and You know, the DAO, like we've talked about, is, is meant to incentivize that. So just as a frame of reference, the DAO has been out since April, is when it was launched, and since then, there's been well over a hundred thousand BSQ have been burned for trading fees, meaning that that amount of money was essentially directed to contributors for their, their work and then used by traders to use Bisq. So for such a new, novel, kind of obscure concept, I think it's done quite well. And, you know, contributors, I think, You know, folks interested in contributing hopefully can take a look at it and if, if, you know, if they like it, then become a part of the, the project and just help, help spread it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:25", "start": 3504.71, "text": "Great. Wiz, did you have anything you wanted to add on, on that, just on your thoughts around, driving Bisq adoption?" }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "58:32", "start": 3511.66, "text": "Yeah, and to respond to your point earlier about the BSQ colored coin, I, I totally, understand if you're a toxic maximalist and you think that BSQ is a shit coin, then just don't use it, right? You know, pay your trading fees in Bitcoin and, you know, think of it as something that the Bisq contributors and developers use internally to vote on things, and, you know, it's totally opt-in. If you don't wanna use BSQ, don't use it. And if you're more interested in contributing to Bisq, then yeah Research and figure out, decide for yourself if BSQ is a shitcoin or not. I mean, believe me, I am the biggest, shitcoin and I came around, so, you know But, but do your own research. And, and yeah, if, if you want to adopt Bisq in your local community, please come on the, Bisq Slack or keybase groups and, contact, Steve or I and, you know, we can talk about how to localize, the payment methods in your area for Bisq. We can talk about, you know, other localizations, if you wanna do translations, if you wanna, work on the website or other documentation. I kind of, You know, figured out with Steve, over the past few months here, how to launch Bisq in a new market and, really, really, really, fortunately that it, it's working out and, I just, I just can't believe, how satisfying it is to, you know, help spread, Bisq to the local community and just see the look on everyone's face when they realize, like, \"Oh yeah, we're free now from the government regulation, you know? We, we can now trade with our, ourselves.\" Stay private, you know, keep our freedom. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:18", "start": 3618.51, "text": "Yeah, I mean, from my point of view, I think I would like to see it, be a viable option, and I think, definitely I would like to see, if possible, you know, more people using it and adopting it, and that way, it's always there as just like a, you know, it's kind of like, existing in the same way that BTC Pay server, it, it exists as this way as like, if nothing else works, you've always got BTC Pay server kind" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:44", "start": 3644.58, "text": "I do want to see more decentralized Bitcoin exchange, and that's, again, I'm not, you know, attacking other forms of exchange, right? Obviously, you know, I, I see a role for many, for a spectrum. I just want a good, option to exist, and I would like to see that. So, yeah. So for any listeners who are interested, if they wanna go download Bisq or if they wanna find you guys, where should they come and find you?" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "01:01:08", "start": 3668.16, "text": "So the website is Bisq dot network and, we have a Slack space, Bisq dot slack. Actually, if you want, the invite link is slightly different. The link is Bisq dot slack dot com, but I think the invite link, we can maybe put that in the show notes, if possible. Then Bisq underscore network is the Twitter handle. Fantastic. and just for you guys, if people wanna" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:29", "start": 3689.91, "text": "find" }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "01:01:30", "start": 3690.19, "text": "you on your personal" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:30", "start": 3690.91, "text": "names," }, { "speaker": "wiz", "time": "01:01:31", "start": 3691.13, "text": "where can they find you? So I tend to go by M. 5 2 go. Jane dot io is my, my website, you can put those in the show notes as well. Cool." }, { "speaker": "m52go", "time": "01:01:40", "start": 3700.94, "text": "Yeah, I'm Wiz, and, you should check out my website bitcoinerorshitcoiner dot com." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:48", "start": 3708.23, "text": "Very nice. Alright, well, thanks very much, guys. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having us. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed hearing from Wiz and Steve. If you are interested, go and check out Bisq. It might be good to put up some offers, that way there is more liquidity and makes it more easy for people to transact in a non-KYC fashion, and that might also help build Bitcoin's resilience. Reminder, if you get value out of this show, please do help me out by reviewing the show on iTunes or sharing it with your family and friends. StephanLivera.com is where you can go to subscribe, find the show notes, or read the episode transcripts on each episode page. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }