{ "episodeId": "SLP126", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "ben_askren": { "name": "Ben Askren", "role": "guest", "tag": "BEN" }, "former_olympic_wrestler": { "name": "former Olympic Wrestler", "role": "guest", "tag": "FORMER" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.17, "text": "Hi, you're listening to the Stefan Livera podcast focused on Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today for episode one hundred and twenty-six, I've got an interview with Ben Askren. But first, let me introduce the sponsors of the show. So firstly, Kraken, one of the world's longest standing and best exchanges for Bitcoin. They offer a high quality platform, they've got high trading volume, low fees. no minimum or hidden fees. You wanna be somewhere with good liquidity as well. 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That's why" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:00", "start": 180.0, "text": "You time lock for one to five years and then giveBitcoin is delivering a world class curriculum with input from many well known bitcoiners. I'm also an advisor with a small equity stake and I'm assisting with the curriculum also. Don't forget, you can also get Bitcoin as a present for birthdays, Christmas, bar mitzvahs, graduation, weddings. Put Bitcoin on your wish list at GiveBitcoin.io. I really think GiveBitcoin.io can have a positive impact on Bitcoin adoption and understanding, so I'm excited to have them as a sponsor. So Ben Askren is a recently retired Pro mixed martial artist and former Olympic wrestler. So he joins me today and we talk about how he's really getting into Bitcoin now and he's really spreading the word himself about Bitcoin to his own following. And I saw that he was recently tweeting about the little Bitcoin book and trying to get people woke about Bitcoin. So we had a fun chat about Bitcoin. Here's the interview. Ben, welcome to the show! What's" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "03:51", "start": 230.88, "text": "going on? Exc- excited to be here, excited to talk about Bitcoin. let's do this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:56", "start": 235.97, "text": "Yeah, for sure. So Ben, I've seen you've, recently been talking a lot about Bitcoin. You tweeted just recently about, the Little Bitcoin Book, which is, a great book. can you tell us, I'd love to hear a little bit about how you-- What did you first think of Bitcoin when you first heard about it?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "04:13", "start": 252.55, "text": "Oh, let's see. When I first heard, so, you know what, of course, I didn't hear about it early enough, 'cause I really wish, wish I woulda heard about it in like 2011, 2012, 2013. So I first heard about it in 2017. luckily it was before the run-up. I wanna say I was with my buddy, I fought in Shanghai, my buddy came up, he lives in Australia, and he had, he had bought-- by that point, he had bought a" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "04:42", "start": 282.03, "text": "That's what I feel like I remember. and so, you know, he started telling me about it, we, you know, he-- we were there in Shanghai for a week, so by, by the end of the week in Shanghai, I'm like, okay, alright, alright. And I started buying stuff, luckily, you know. And then, so it was a blast 'cause I, I got to watch the run up, so, you know, I went about three X, and then I got to watch the run down, and I went," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "05:09", "start": 308.79, "text": "you know, We have in our world, and so I'm all in for the long haul." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:15", "start": 315.27, "text": "So I think most people come to it, they're very skeptical, right? They normally think of it like, \"Oh, that's a scam, whatever.\" What was it that turned you around from that view?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "05:23", "start": 323.4, "text": "Oh, well, I feel, okay, so I feel as though I'm open-minded, just, just right, right off of the bat. And so I, I don't, and maybe, you know, maybe it is also because the guy who I was speaking with is a close friend and very trusted," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "05:42", "start": 342.07, "text": "He says it's his truth, but I'm, I'm gonna listen with open ears. but, man, I just saw some of the obvious use cases. Obviously, I'm an end the Fed type of guy. I voted for Ron Paul in twenty twelve. I see how our financial services system takes advantage of us immensely. I see the flaws in having a Federal Reserve. I love the freedom that Bitcoin gives us. and so I guess that, that kind-- I, I was naturally attracted. I feel like it's this, you know, in the early days of Bitcoin, capitalist type of people, and I wouldn't go that far to say that, that's kind of what I am, but I do have some of those libertarian leanings, and so I think right, right away, I was turned on by some of the aspects that Bitcoin provided." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:26", "start": 386.14, "text": "Oh, that's awesome, yeah. So I think you were very well primed for it as well. But then I'm surprised you didn't hear about it earlier, like a lot of those, yeah. And" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "06:33", "start": 393.01, "text": "I, I am also, you know, when I think about how, how woke that I think I It's, it, you know, I don't know, I don't know why." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:46", "start": 405.95, "text": "That's awesome. So then, tell us a little bit about your experience learning about Bitcoin. What were some of the resources that you used? Like, your friend, did he recommend stuff to you?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "06:55", "start": 415.02, "text": "Yeah, so I started reading, a handful of books right away. let's see. They're on my shelf. Can I see them? I, I know The Internet of Money was an easy one that, that came up right away. man, I'm not seeing any of Following the proper people, on Twitter and whatnot. I mean, you can gather so much information from Twitter, right, listing and reading, and so, yeah, just started doing my own research and, like I said, a lot of, a lot of what Bitcoin provides jived with what I thought about the world already in my worldview, and so it was easy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:31", "start": 451.12, "text": "Yeah, that's great. And well, one thing I find with Twitter is you can often be misled. You can find a lot of misinformation on Twitter as well. So how did you filter out the good from the bad" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "07:43", "start": 462.67, "text": "Oh, well, the good, the bad, well, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I would say on Twitter, you take an aggregate of everything, right? Obviously, you know, there's some people, if, if you follow them, you start realizing who know, kind of knows what they're talking about, and who's totally full of crap. And I think Twitter really, and, and, you know, really, the internet allows you to follow things all the way to the end, right? So you see someone say something, you click on a link," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "08:12", "start": 492.07, "text": "Seems like this guy's full, totally full of crap. Okay, I'm not gonna trust this guy anymore. Once, once you catch a guy lying or being full of shit a couple times, it's easy to not really trust him anymore. so, you know, you try to, like I said, you, you get a lot of resources and you try to go with the ones that you like the best." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:28", "start": 508.06, "text": "Great. And did you have a lot of time to devote to learning about Bitcoin? I mean, you sound like, I mean, you're obviously very busy with your, with your" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "08:42", "start": 522.09, "text": "People always find time for stuff that they find valuable, and so yeah, I, I found the time. you know, again, my, my, the guy who introduced me, his name's Rye, he was out of Australia, you know, he would send me a whole bunch of links all the time, you know, and we would stay, stay, up to date. And then obviously, then once you start talking about it, you find other people who are interested in the topic, and then you can bounce stuff off them also." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "09:09", "start": 548.97, "text": "and, yeah, I you know, I, I think, I would like to think I have quite a few good resources." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:16", "start": 555.93, "text": "Yeah. So on the topic of having, healthy skepticism, I think that is a, an important mindset to take when people present different ideas to you in this Bitcoin space, because sometimes there'll be a lot of, questionable projects and so on." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "09:31", "start": 570.57, "text": "There are a lot of charlatans in this space. I actually, I have a friend, his name is Martin Floriani. He started, He started a company, a media company, it has a, it has a blockchain solution to payments of creators. And at first he kinda pushed that, and then after a while he's like, \"There are so many effing charlatans in this, in this industry. I don't even wanna have blockchain attached to my company at all. I don't, I don't even really tell people that it's got a blockchain component to anymore. They don't really need to know that. I mean, if they start doing it, they'll figure it out, right? \" But, yeah, Seventeen, man, there's a lot of criminals in this space, and it, it really allowed for them. but I guess that's kind of like any industry, right? You, you find good and bad people everywhere." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:18", "start": 618.3, "text": "so when it comes to some Bitcoin tools and things that you use, what, do you have any favorite, wallets, desktop wallets, Lightning, hardware wallets? What are some of your favorites?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "10:30", "start": 630.19, "text": "well, my, my buddy recommended Trezor right off the bat, and so that was, you know, something I got right away So obviously I'm sponsored by Etoro, I gotta, I gotta put that out there. And, so that, that's where I buy through now. But, the buying stuff has gotten so much simpler since twenty-- what were we talking about? August, September, twenty seventeen. I mean, the, the amount of ease you can get to, to purchase pretty much anything now is ten times as easy as it was back then. So, now it, now it's pretty simple. You got your Tracer. I have a couple wallets on my phone for small amounts of I have a handful of things on my phone for, like I said, small amounts of money, have the trades there for large amounts of money. yeah, it's, man, it's, it's simple now compared to what it used to be. And then I, I can't even imagine like in twenty twelve, I can't even imagine what that was like. Yeah. Have you, explored running like a Bitcoin node as well? Nah, I've never explored that. I mean, I just, I got enough going on my life. That seems like a" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:30", "start": 689.99, "text": "lot of work." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "11:38", "start": 698.29, "text": "Step foot in that direction. I never even Googled, \"How do I do a, a Bitcoin node?\" Maybe I'm misled, but I feel like it takes a lot of computing power and a handful of, upfront investment, and I'm just, I'm already invested enough in Bitcoin and everything else, so yeah, no, I didn't explore that at" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:54", "start": 713.6, "text": "all. Yeah, no, that's-- Well, I think it's, that's part of the journey as well. I think people go on a progression, right? So they buy Bitcoin, then they" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:08", "start": 728.33, "text": "But I think that's the, that's the progression that we, like as, like more experienced Bitcoiners try to put, Bitcoiners on that, that sort of journey. There's a reason for that, though. That's fair." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "12:18", "start": 737.52, "text": "That's," }, { "speaker": "former_olympic_wrestler", "time": "12:18", "start": 738.02, "text": "sure, that's fair." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "12:19", "start": 739.1, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I think like, so I just started this podcast with John Kim, Funky John Kim. you know him? heard of him, heard of him. I, I might have met him. He's a Litecoin evangelist, travels the world. So we said, but I think a lot of people, so obviously you do, you do a Bitcoin podcast, a lot of people in the community, they don't understand how much other people don't know. Like, do you know how many times I've been asked, \"Well, Ben, I can't even buy a full Bitcoin, it costs too much.\" And I'm like, \"No, you don't have to buy, you don't have to buy a whole Bitcoin, you can buy anything, you buy ten dollars, hundred dollars, whatever was, how do I bit- buy Bitcoin? What is an exchange and what is a wallet? So, you know, we're trying to explain some of these really simple things because I think lots of times people who, who are in the space, they, they take for granted, like, how easy stuff is once they already know, and they forget, like, when people don't know. I mean, even, even me, sometimes when you have your trades or do, say, a firmware update or something, you're like, \"Oh shit, am I gonna lose all my money" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "13:29", "start": 808.63, "text": "Trying to simplify stuff for people." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:30", "start": 810.01, "text": "Yeah, that's, that's a totally a great point, and I think that's absolutely a great focus that most of us need to have. I think one, good point even is- Oh my god," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "13:39", "start": 819.14, "text": "I, I, I just looked at your Twitter handle, and it says, Bitcoin plus Australian economics. So you voted for Ron Paul also, didn't you? Hahahahah. If I could, I would. I'm in Australia, but, oh, that's where" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:55", "start": 835.45, "text": "my, my buddy lives That's awesome, cool. but yeah, I liked that you mentioned around, a lot of the difficulty around, like, even when you're doing a firmware update on your Trezor, for example, one thing that people don't understand when they're first getting into this is that you write down those twenty-four words, and that is your backup, so even for your future transactions, right? They don't realize, oh, I need to do another, I don't need to do another backup, that is it. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What, Bitcoin, it, it that, you know, maybe it's volatile. What, what, what, what, what would, what would you normally say if you, if you get someone who says that?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "14:36", "start": 876.3, "text": "I, I guess what I would say, no, I, I wouldn't say that, It's volatile. What I would say is a lot of Americans, because they haven't had some of the difficulties that other countries or other parts of the world have had, they don't really see the need for Bitcoin, right? The US dollar has been fairly stable, right? There's been obviously a slow depreciation, in value, but for what it's worth, it has been fairly stable. They're not having hyperinflation, they're not having runs on the banks like has happened in Iceland or Cyprus or, Venezuela, right? So they don't see that. They didn't, Access to banks very easily. It's not like you're in Indonesia, which has a huge portion of unbanked people. So they, they're not seeing those problems that other parts of the world have, that, like I said, that when you, when you know those things, when you're educated on those topics, it's like, oh, duh, Bitcoin makes so much sense." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:30", "start": 929.6, "text": "Yeah, and I think, there are a couple examples even in, the little Bitcoin book as well where they point out like remittance or even being able to leave the country." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "15:38", "start": 938.36, "text": "Rem-rem Four years exclusively, and, both-- I spent time in both Singapore and a lot of time in Singapore, some time in Hong Kong, but you see, like on Sundays, there's the huge migrant communities which have migrant labor, and usually on Sundays they go gather and they send remittances, and you realize, holy shit, these remittances, they take a week to get there, the, the Western Union or whatever similar thing charges them ungodly fees of ten, twelve, fifteen percent, and so you see, oh wait, they can send Bitcoin Bitcoin with, you know, like a point zero zero zero one percent fee, and it gets there in five minutes or ten minutes, oh my gosh, like, yeah. So yeah, I, I, I see like that was, I saw those things right away, and it made so much sense." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:26", "start": 985.59, "text": "Yeah, it just, I think most people haven't experienced what it's like to be totally free and being able to send that money around anywhere, right? As you say, very few people really understand Bitcoin, and so they're used to this world of normal bank transfers, and then So, for days maybe, and then they might block you, right? Or then there might be some screw up with the transfer." }, { "speaker": "former_olympic_wrestler", "time": "16:48", "start": 1007.97, "text": "Yeah. Even, even a bank wire takes like three days. Like, holy shit, it's twenty nineteen, how does this, how does this effing process take three days? It's absurd. It's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:57", "start": 1016.77, "text": "totally absurd. So, so speaking of, very quick settlements, Ben, have you heard or listened much around the Lightning Network?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "17:05", "start": 1025.22, "text": "I mean, I, I kind of know what it is, but no, I couldn't give you an in-depth explanation of, of the Lightning Network, at all. No, that's, that's totally" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:14", "start": 1033.82, "text": "fine. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not expecting you to have like, super detailed knowledge on these things, but, just curious to know, you know, where you're at and what you're thinking about to very quickly send money and still settle it back down to the Bitcoin, blockchain as well, and so that, I view that as like a real game changer in terms of being able to very quickly, increase our ability to send money anywhere around the world and just like settle it really quickly." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "17:44", "start": 1064.46, "text": "Yeah, so, well, if, if I'm, remember, if I know this topic right, Lightning Network was first tried out by Litecoin, I believe, did Charlie Lee have some hand in, in getting it going or no?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:57", "start": 1076.53, "text": "I think that's one of those points where people, people have disagreement in the community around that. So some people would say, \"Yes, it was the activation of SegWit on Litecoin that helped enable,\" again, getting a bit technical, but that helped activation of the technology that helped enable Lightning on Bitcoin. There is a Litecoin Lightning Network, however, it's much, much smaller than the Bitcoin Lightning Network. okay. Yeah. But, that's a cool one as well in terms of being able to very quickly and cheaply, send money around and it, it just has dramatically lower fees and it allows Bitcoin to sort of take it to the next level. So I think I'm really excited about that." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "18:37", "start": 1117.41, "text": "So obviously I use Litecoin, also I, I, you know, I have a Loaf Wallet. And I, there's a couple people I pay that I use for stuff, and I pay them in, in Litecoin. And yeah, every time, so I, I also use, Venmo, 'cause all the, you know, so I, I got eleven acres here, I have a res-h Wrestling Academy, and some of the high school kids want summer works, they come over and, you know, cut my grass or move mulch or whatever it is, and so I pay them Alley, but, you know, obviously I'm not, I'm not gonna give Venmo access to my bank account, so I put my, put my credit card on there, and every single time I put send fifty bucks, it gives me a buck fifty transaction fee, and I'm like, \"Oh, freaking Venmo.\" And then, you know, I pay my one guy on my Loophole, and it's like, \"Okay, the, the fee is point zero zero zero zero zero seven of a Litecoin,\" and you're like, \"Okay, what's the math then" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:37", "start": 1177.21, "text": "You basically can do a similar level, transaction on Lightning and pay pretty much a similar level fees with that as well. So you could even look into, getting them onto Lightning. I think that's also another, important comment around building real world use as well. So I, I'm, I'm obviously a big fan of HODL, right? I think HODL is the important thing, but, I think eventually there, there definitely is a need to build around that idea of doing real commerce in Bitcoin as well. So I, I think it's really cool that, you have, real world examples that you're using it for already." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "20:11", "start": 1211.47, "text": "Yeah, I mean, and that's, my, my podcast co-host, John Kim, actually, the clip we put" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "20:20", "start": 1219.94, "text": "Because he's out spending his money, spending, spending his Bitcoin and Litecoin, he's out there spending it. A-and we, we brought up the example of the really guy, I-I'm blanking on the name, Lazlo, I believe his name is, the first guy that bought two pizzas with thirty, thirty thousand bitcoins and how, man, he's a dumbass. I mean, he paid, he paid thirty million dollars or whatever for a couple pizzas. And, you know, so John was saying, \"Yeah, you know, people call Laszlo a dumbass, and but I'm out here spending because someone, someone has to do it, someone has to spend to give it real, real world value.\" So, you know, like I, this is John saying, John saying, \"I consider Laszlo to be a hero 'cause he's the first one that went out and did that.\" And someday, hopefully, people will feel the same way" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:08", "start": 1268.27, "text": "I think that's a point where, the, again, there's differences in the community. I think my view would be more like actually the value comes from holding. And, well, I, you know what, I had this arg- I had" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "21:18", "start": 1277.9, "text": "this argument with my brother last week. You want, you wanna hear how it goes? Yeah, let's hear it. So this is, again, I, I'm, I'm, I will never, ever claim to be the most, knowledgeable person on Bitcoin, but Max, my brother, was saying that, and he," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "21:37", "start": 1296.75, "text": "he does And that, and that's what gives it value. And I said, I, I don't really feel as though it has to be, and I don't feel like Bitcoin, Bitcoin specifically. I think other things may be used for day to day transaction, Bitcoin might be, but I think there's also a chance other things will be. So I said, but a lot of people view Bitcoin as just a store of value. They're just going to go put their wealth in there, and the reason is it has a lot of the same properties that gold does, right? That's why gold," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "22:08", "start": 1328.03, "text": "The problem is Bitcoin does pretty much every single thing gold can do. If you list the categories where gold gives value, pretty much everything that gold can do, Bitcoin does it better or is easier, right? a verification of if this is real gold or what percentage gold, like I don't know how to do that. That's gonna cost a whole bunch of money to go verify real gold. How about sending gold? What if I wanna send you a thousand dollars of gold? How am I gonna go send you-- I can send you a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in about, you know, forty-four seconds, maybe less. How am I gonna send you a thousand dollars of gold? Like real, literally, me to you, right now. It's gonna be tough. I mean, I'm gonna go, have to figure out divide it up, I'm gonna have to like have a You know, think about the complexities in that. So every, every single thing that Gold did, Bitcoin has the same, same aspects, just better. I mean, you talk about how there's not a high quantity, right? There's only twenty-one million Bitcoin ever, probably less 'cause a whole bunch were lost. Gold has a limited source of it, but, you know, it is ever expanding, so it's probably not as limited as, as they once thought it to be. So I think everything Gold does, Bitcoin does better. Gold was valuable as gold, 'cause gold is gold, people deemed it to be valuable. Bitcoin won't be the same way. It's gonna have value on its standalone value on its own, because it has those immutable properties. Gotcha. Yeah, I, I think, yeah, you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:33", "start": 1413.02, "text": "couldn't have said it better. Now, I, I would say-" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "23:35", "start": 1415.0, "text": "Really? I, come on, give me, give me some criticism there. Make it," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:38", "start": 1418.25, "text": "make" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "23:38", "start": 1418.47, "text": "me better." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:39", "start": 1419.49, "text": "Well, no, I, I think the one point I would add to what you were saying is the other way you could have done" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:52", "start": 1432.4, "text": "Here is, you wanna verify yourself, you don't wanna just trust that somebody else is gonna hold the gold for you and that they're gonna measure it correctly, that they're gonna verify it for you, you've gotta do it yourself. And that's why this whole idea of, you know, you hold your own keys and you run your own node, and that's, that's very much, I think, the ethos of Bitcoin and what we try to really teach newcomers. But okay," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "24:12", "start": 1451.89, "text": "give, g-give me the elevator pitch on why I need to do my own node, because I've never considered" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "24:22", "start": 1462.38, "text": "Node, because I feel pretty secure. I got, I got it somewhere here in my presence, in my house, I have my Trezor wallet, it's got money on it. If, if I had a lot more money, I would probably use a Casa Huddle or something even more secure. but a-as is, I don't really see anyone else having access to my money. So why do I need to run a node?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:41", "start": 1481.42, "text": "Yeah, great. Happy, great question, happy to answer it. So let me put it this way. Right now, you can either use your own node or you can trust somebody else to run the node for you. So put it, let me put it simply. What do, what do" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "24:55", "start": 1494.95, "text": "you mean by that? So define that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:57", "start": 1496.77, "text": "So what the full node does is it basically checks that you really do hold that Bitcoin. So for example, Trezor, now they're probably not lying to you, but Trezor or Ledger or one of these other companies who are running that, they could lie to you. They could tell you, \"Hey Ben, you-" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "25:14", "start": 1514.16, "text": "You're right, I, I would, I don't know." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:16", "start": 1515.69, "text": "So, so what, what, so the ethos with Bitcoin is, when you run the full node, what that's doing is it's checking all the rules of Bitcoin, it's checking that no one has inflated the supply beyond twenty-one million, et cetera, that there's certain rules around blocks and transactions, and most importantly, you're checking that you know without trusting anybody else that, yes, Ben, you hold this number of X, Y, Z number of bitcoins. And what, what, what it does is it helps reduce So think of it like a fake, if you had a fake gold detector, you know, like those, things to check if they've got, tungsten and whatever. Think of your full node, it's like a fake Bitcoin detector. And so when you run your own Bitcoin full node and you connect, now it's great that you hold your own keys because you've got a Trezor, so that's step one. But then step two is learning to run your own node and then connect that with your own," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:11", "start": 1570.86, "text": "key, keys in Happy to help talk you through that process if you like. but it, I think it's quite simple now. You, you haven't convinced" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "26:18", "start": 1578.49, "text": "me quite yet. We're getting there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:20", "start": 1580.37, "text": "So, okay, okay, alright. Well," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "26:22", "start": 1581.89, "text": "let's, let's. Here's the other one. Okay. okay, wait, hold on. So let me get this. So I realize one of the things that makes the blockchain so powerful is everyone, you know, there are all these nodes all, all over the world, right, which are also, which are all tra-checking these transactions and They could probably do that, right? Bitcoin, not necessarily, because there's all these open nodes and everyone can see what everyone else is doing. so I, I, I guess I'm just help explain to you why I need to do" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:56", "start": 1615.97, "text": "one. Well, that comes down to how, how willing are you to trust that this company, will run it for you, right? Because remember, right now it's, it's early days, right? But imagine in the future where, let's say, that company might, that might, that company might become bigger and bigger and more of a Bigger and bigger and more of a target for the government." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "27:15", "start": 1635.42, "text": "Tracer," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:17", "start": 1636.64, "text": "potentially. Tracer. I mean, yeah." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "27:19", "start": 1639.07, "text": "Huh. Interesting. So I guess the my, my thought, the way I understand it, this is again, you know, I'm not the smartest guy in Bitcoin, I have a decent understanding. When I have my tracer, I plug it in, I send my stuff to my private keys, right? Then my tracer is unplugged, it is then put somewhere in my house. No one has access, no one can have access to that, right? Yes" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:42", "start": 1661.79, "text": "Yes and no. So what it is is, oh, no, no, don't, don't, like, okay, so there's a few, oh, who," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "27:48", "start": 1668.0, "text": "who's hacking" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:50", "start": 1670.08, "text": "me? I'm hacking you right now, man. Nah, no. But, it's, it's more like there are ways in which you can still have your security compromised. for example, if you use a web browser, then somebody might use a malicious web extension, and then they might present you a fake address. So that you might think, \"Oh, I'm depositing Their address, right? Things like that. Sure, yeah. Or, there are occasionally hacks against hardware wallets as well, so that's why, de-de-depending on the model of Trezor, it's a good thing to have, what's called a passphrase. You can think of that like the twenty-fifth word on your seed. So that's another good practice as well. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "28:29", "start": 1708.62, "text": "yeah. Well, what do you-- So what do you say about like the Casa Hadel system? Have you seen that? Yeah, that's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:32", "start": 1712.35, "text": "a good system. I like Casa Like it's a, it would be considered a, you know, I think it's a good security system in that they have, you know, multi-signature and you distribute the keys. so there are a few providers out there, so Casa, one of my podcast sponsors, is Unchain Capital, they're doing a two of three setup, and it's also possible to create your own multi-signature as well if you're using other software like Electrum or Caravan now as well." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "29:05", "start": 1745.48, "text": "I'm not that, I'm not that educated on this. Yeah. Oh, look, I think I can't, I can't, I can't make my- No," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:11", "start": 1751.06, "text": "no, but I think" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "29:12", "start": 1751.66, "text": "it's," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:12", "start": 1752.08, "text": "it's over time, it'll get there. It's gonna get easier and easier, and, companies like Casa are helping make it easy for people to hold their own keys and to, run their own node as well, and, ideally connect it all up so that they are-- Because part of it is, you wanna make sure when you receive a transaction, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:35", "start": 1775.22, "text": "know for sure that I really did send you, you know, point one Bitcoin. Well, you aren't," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "29:40", "start": 1780.42, "text": "aren't I gonna see it in my wallet like five, ten minutes later?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:44", "start": 1784.08, "text": "Right, but even then, you're still trusting that whoever that provider is, isn't lying to you. And there's also a privacy aspect to it as well." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "29:51", "start": 1791.45, "text": "What do you mean? I mean, I, I, I don't understand. I, I, I thought once it's, I see it in my wallet, that," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:01", "start": 1801.19, "text": "that it's there, right? I'm not, no Right. So some-at that some point," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "30:07", "start": 1807.2, "text": "oh man, you are so far down the rabbit hole. Now you're gonna, you wanna make me like stay up all night worried about shit, don't you? We're all just paranoid. Here I, here I thought I had this really secure system for my money, and now I feel like, oh shit," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:21", "start": 1821.03, "text": "I'm getting robbed. So, no, hold on, hold on. Like, Trezor themselves are working on something on this. It's called, as I understand, I think it's called Trezor Suite. And the idea is you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:35", "start": 1835.22, "text": "There are other ways to achieve it as well, that will-- because part of it is protecting the decentralization of Bitcoin, right? Because imagine if there were, say, two or three big providers that everyone just trusts, well then the government can just go shut them down or just go and co-opt it there. You know what I mean? So, and that's-- and we would say even like with gold, you-- that was, that was what we saw, right? That the way gold got stored got very centralized and then it got co-opted, right? Yeah. And so in some Whole new thing, because now we can verify it all on our own, and literally every household in, down the street can be running their own full node, and so that way it's way more decentralized." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "31:16", "start": 1876.46, "text": "How many active nodes are there on planet Earth currently?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:20", "start": 1879.64, "text": "Oh, it's, it's, there's not really any hard numbers that I could, say. There are like online sites which, which show statistics of, listening nodes, but there's a lot that aren't listening or easily discoverable. So we were, look, I would say on the low end, it's like ten thousand listening nodes or whatever, but realistically, at least, you know, a hundred thousand like full nodes, around the world. But part of the- The system actually relies on more people running their own full node as well. So part of it is like keeping this thing decentralized, right? And I, I think you can appreciate that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "31:55", "start": 1915.08, "text": "course. Alright. Yeah. Wow, we went deep there. now listen, I never, I never even ventured into the node territory, and now you got-- now you have me at least slightly curious. So you did your job. Now I'm gonna go, after we get off this, I, I, at some point, I will do my research on, on" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:13", "start": 1933.42, "text": "I'm happy to point, I'll g- after this, I'll give you some resources and I'll, I'm hap- I'm happy to help you. So, sounds good. Yeah, but look, I'd love to talk a little bit about whether you've, explored. Now, another thing that I, I commonly get when I, when I'm talking to like a Bitcoin beginner, they're often coming and asking, \"Oh, hey, should I do Bitcoin mining? Right? did you ever explore that as well? \" Never." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "32:36", "start": 1956.0, "text": "Or do, do you get" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "32:43", "start": 1963.06, "text": "Interest" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:43", "start": 1963.32, "text": "in mining. Yeah. Have you ever had like people come to you though and ask about it as well?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "32:48", "start": 1968.06, "text": "yeah, I mean, when people, I, I guess that's fair, that would be a fairly commonly asked question. I mean, you know, when you talk about like people obviously see me talking about Bitcoin or, or whatever on, on social media, and, you know, they're, they're, listen, there's a lot of people who have interest who have, who haven't bought any or done anything with it yet, and, you know, like I said Just, do you do, do you do any mining? And, yeah, I just, no, I haven't, any had interest, I haven't went down that path whatsoever." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:20", "start": 2000.04, "text": "Yeah, yeah. have you, heard of any specific examples in terms of Bitcoin versus censorship? Like, I think that's a good angle as well." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "33:29", "start": 2008.73, "text": "I've gotten a little bit into that. I've, I've gotten a little bit into that, but I wouldn't say I'm super deep in there. Obviously, I know there's stuff like Monero, which is even, even more" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "33:43", "start": 2023.04, "text": "Very, very surface level tell you the debate that people are having on, on the privacy of Bitcoin, because people can't shut down or, or, or view some transactions. Like I just saw that one guy, I think he was in South Korea, had a bunch of pornography or child, child pornography, and they were using Bitcoin for the payment, and they were tracked down by the, their use of Bitcoin. And, so, you know, it's not, it's not totally private, which is, I, I guess, probably a good thing, right, that people like that can't Which is, I'm gonna tie this right back into what you said, that pisses me off, feels like, \"That's just for people who wanna money launder.\" Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, you effing idiot, brainwashed idiots. Like, do you understand more money is laundered and more money is used illegally with a US dollar bill than probably, it would probably greatly exceeds what the market cap of Bitcoin even is. Like, if you don't understand that, you're so brainwashed by mainstream media, you're a moron. Get out of my Don't mean to get angry or anything." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:44", "start": 2084.04, "text": "No, no, I think you're totally right because, it's one of those, things where people in the normal media, they just-- they don't want Bitcoin to win in some ways, so they just like will say whatever and they'll, they'll just say random things and hope something sticks, right? But if you really looked in the perspective- That" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "35:00", "start": 2099.63, "text": "one drives me crazy. That one, I mean, Obama effin' sent Iran four hundred million dollars of cash! Like, you know, that stuff doesn't happen in the Bitcoin world. Give me a break." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:09", "start": 2109.07, "text": "Right, yeah, yeah. And, and it just, yeah, it, it's-- The other big one is energy usage. Have you heard of that one as well?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "35:17", "start": 2117.22, "text": "Yeah, I, I don't buy, I, I don't want, listen, I put one post up jokingly, we got, we got snowed on here on October 31st, and I jokingly made a post and said, \"Glad to see global warming is alive and well,\" and I put the picture of the snow on October 31st, and people got livid at me. And, you know what? I'm actually geography major, so I am probably significantly more educated than most people on the topic of global warming and all the perspectives. And Like, kind of like a religion, but anyone who is certain that they know exactly what's happening with, global warming, I consider them to be an idiot, because I think the world systems are so complex. And just bottom line, if you, if you just look back historically at most scientists' predictions on what was gonna happen, it'd be this year, or by this year, or by this year, they've almost all became false, just, just across the board. And so I, I think the, the better perspective is that we don't really have a great understanding of what A bunch of people trying to treat it like religion, that we know exactly what's happening, and anything that produces CO2 is, is evil, and we must stop it. And so obviously Bitcoin produces a lot of CO2, because we have a lot of energy usage." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:29", "start": 2188.95, "text": "Right. Yeah. But I think it, it just comes back to, what do you think Bitcoin is replacing? You know? And if Bitcoin is replacing a system that is very corrupt or very unjust, then is it worth it? And that's, that's the question we would say, we believe, yes, it is worth" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "36:47", "start": 2206.79, "text": "A-and, listen, again, I think, not, not to, I think that the, the final verdict on the global warming discussion is, is not yet been, been, said. I mean, I think there's a definite possibility there's some truth. I, I think there's a possibility that people are way off. I think there's a possibility that, that there is global warming that is not man-made, right? There's all kinds of these different cycles, whether it's sun cycles, distance from the sun and/or the Earth that play into it, right? There's Yeah. And again, if you look back at anyone's historical predictions, man, there's, there's, it's just littered with just ones" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:23", "start": 2243.07, "text": "that are just" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "37:24", "start": 2243.83, "text": "blatantly wrong." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:25", "start": 2245.07, "text": "Yeah, yeah, no, I totally appreciate that. I think there's a lot of things that we don't-- we have to have humility and understand that we don't actually understand as much as we think we do. And, so, you know, for me, I think you probably will have a similar perspective, coming from a more libertarian mindset, we believe in more of a market solution to these things, A government top-down planner, deciding what everyone else does. Yes, I, I agree, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I'm 100% in. What about, other athletes getting into Bitcoin? Do you have any other friends who are getting into- There's" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "38:01", "start": 2280.71, "text": "not, there's not many. There's not many that actually talk about it. I guess, you know, I was just on a, a panel at the Litecoin convention with, with four or five other athletes, and then the, the one guy who wasn't there was Russell Okung. And I, I guess those are the only athletes that are really into it. I, you know, listen, I'll tell you, pretty much every guy that I train with has at least," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "38:24", "start": 2303.69, "text": "they, they, they have a curiosity about Bitcoin and what it is. Some of them own it, some of them have more knowledge than others, but, I think it's kind of just general public, they're gonna figure, they're gonna figure it out over time. It's gonna become more and more mainstream, and we've already seen it become more and more mainstream. And whenever this" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "38:44", "start": 2324.0, "text": "Gonna catch fire with mainstream, right? And for you, even, even in twenty seventeen, when the bull run was happening, it wasn't totally easy to buy. It wasn't. I mean, you know, and, the, the exchanges weren't as good as they are today. And so, say the bull run hits next, next spring or next summer, hopping on some type of platform to buy a Bitcoin is gonna be so much easier than it was three years ago. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:07", "start": 2347.06, "text": "that's the trend we've seen in this space that it's sort of like there'd be a Bitcoin or sell Bitcoin in the, sometimes, and then there'd be a big crash, and then the exchanges would have to let all these people go, and a lot of Bitcoin companies would have to do that too, and then we would just rinse and repeat, but it's, it seems like the infrastructure is building a lot more, so that's definitely what I see. There's a lot more financial, products built around Bitcoin, there's a lot more, technological innovation going on in Bitcoin, so I think, I, I'm, I'm positive It's mostly a factor of knowing people, that's what gets people into Bitcoin, right? Like you got in from your friend. Is, is-- Do you think that's the real, angle?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "39:54", "start": 2394.01, "text": "Oh, what, what do they say, you gotta, you gotta see something seven times before it really sticks? I think that's something like that's like an advertising thing. So I think, I think everything helps. When, when a bull run hits and, and it's all over the news, that obviously helps. And then, you know, obviously now, I, I would venture to guess 2017 when that bull run hit. So, yeah, I mean, now people know when this bull run hits, everyone's gonna be like, \"Ben, how do I buy it? Ben, how do I buy it? Ben, how do I buy it?\" I'm like, \"Hey, you dumbasses, I told you to buy it when it was at four thousand in January 2019. You probably, you probably shouldn't have listened to me then. Now you're gonna buy it at, you know, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, who knows where they're Where'd I get Bitcoin? It'd be like little crackheads coming around the corner." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:49", "start": 2449.47, "text": "Now, it's one thing to get people to buy, but I think it's another one is around having conviction to actually hold. What are your thoughts there?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "40:58", "start": 2457.98, "text": "it's funny, I had this discussion with my, but my, so the guy that got me into Australia, is a very, very close friend of mine, so we, we talk frequently, but we had this discussion 'cause I put out the, the podcast number one with John, John Kim, called Funky Crypto, you can find that on the Rockfin Network if you guys wanna listen to that, and there's a link on, All my social medias. but we were having this discussion 'cause, you know, I was trying to break down what Bitcoin is in as simple as terms as possible, and then our, our episode two is gonna be \"What is Blockchain?\" And I was talking to my friend about that, and he said, \"Ben,\" Everybody uses email, not one person can tell you how it works. Or, you know, not one person that I know, right? I'm sure someone can tell me how email works. I have no idea how an email works. I couldn't tell you. You, I don't know, you're pretty smart, so maybe you could tell me. You know? You know? Nah, I don't. I'm not that, I'm not an expert on that. You're just in Australia. You click, said, \"You send me an email.\" You don't know how it works, it" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "41:59", "start": 2519.17, "text": "Have a deep understanding, sure, right? Does everyone need to have a deep understanding? Absolutely not. It's just like, that damn book Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell, right? The people who are in in the beginning, the early movers, they are, what did he call it? I think he calls them mavens, right? They're the mavens. They're the ones that everyone knows. Again, listen When Bitcoin hits its next bull run, I guarantee you're gonna be flooded with, questions on how do I buy it. Same thing's gonna happen to me. And so there are gonna be people in the, that are in the know that, that have ideas on how to do stuff. Not everyone is gonna feel similarly. Some people will, some people will, will get the bug and they'll, they'll get a deep understanding. Most people won't." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:42", "start": 2561.57, "text": "Yeah, that's a challenge then, because, I think part of it though is each cycle, there's some people who go down conviction to actually hold, because what happens is as the crash happens, then a lot of people get, get buyer's remorse because they've overinvested or they don't know what they're getting into or they didn't get in with a long enough timeframe. But it's," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "43:01", "start": 2581.33, "text": "it's, it's antifragile. you read that book yet? Yeah, that's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:06", "start": 2585.59, "text": "a great one. You read it?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "43:07", "start": 2586.97, "text": "Oh, fantastic. I love it. It's such a great book. So it's, it's just like antifragile, you know, for, you know, we The next time, depression hits, everyone's not gonna stop eating, right? People, people have to eat. Will some of those restaurants go away though? And the course is, yes, people will probably be eating less, they'll probably be spending less, so yeah, will some of them go? Sure. If, if a third of them go away and there's sixty-six restaurants left, the next time there's an upturn, those are the sixty-six best, the other thirty-three shut down 'cause they suck, right? Or 'cause they're the worst of the hundred. And so Depression. Now again, the thirty-three worst ones go, right, or whatever it is, they go away. And so I think, you know, now, I mean, how many boom and bust cycles has Bitcoin seen now? I mean, I, I said, \"You got, you got me. I've only been around for one. Maybe, maybe two a little bit, right? \" There's a little bit of a small bubble, this spring. so maybe, maybe you got me for one and a half, but how many's there been? Five, six, seven Probably the ones you didn't want in the first place. Next run up, there'll be more people interested, and the same thing will happen over and over and over again." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:26", "start": 2665.88, "text": "Yeah, no, I, I totally agree with that pattern. That's definitely the pattern I've seen. What I've-- Hey," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "44:31", "start": 2670.75, "text": "is \"Antifragile\" one of your favorite books? 'Cause I freaking love that book." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:34", "start": 2674.17, "text": "actually, I, I would say my favorite by Taleb is \"Fooled by Randomness, \" but I do love \"Antifragile\" as well. I really loved," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "44:50", "start": 2689.86, "text": "I love it, I love when it gets a little, little hostile. It's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:53", "start": 2692.88, "text": "funny, yeah. It's really- I like" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "44:54", "start": 2694.44, "text": "people with a little bit of edge to them, you know? I don't like people who are too nice all the time. I like people who, you know, they're nice most time, but then every once while they might chew your head off." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:04", "start": 2704.37, "text": "Yeah, no, Nathan Taylor definitely likes to go after people. I think right now he's going after, you know, various different topics. but he, he has been speaking about Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:20", "start": 2719.84, "text": "A, a, a real option to central banking, and, he actually wrote the foreword to the Bitcoin Standard by my friend Saftey Naimur. So have you, have you heard of that book? I think," }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "45:29", "start": 2728.51, "text": "I, I think I may have read that one. I'm try-- I can't, I can't see my Bitcoin books on the shelf, but I do believe that there's a possibility I've read that one. What, what was I just gonna say? You, oh, you made me think of something else. Oh, but, till--" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "45:50", "start": 2750.16, "text": "Not something like they le-- you learned something new about a, a technical innovation, but literally like a thought, a thought pro-- like the thought of anti-fragile, right? When something's fragile, it breaks. When something-- what is the opposite of that? And most people would say sturdy or, or whatever, right? That it's strong. But, you know, a-- and to Talib's point was that when it's shaken, it's not just strong, it actually gets stronger. The shaking helps it get right, the, the, the, all the, the ups and downs" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "46:20", "start": 2779.84, "text": "But obviously he's right. And so when you read a book, you're like, \"Wow, that's a really good thought or thought process or philosophy. Why have I never had that thought before? That's not-- okay, that's, now that's, boom, that's logged in here. It's gonna be there forever.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:34", "start": 2793.59, "text": "I love that, yeah, and totally. I think, and there's definitely a good argument there around why Bitcoin is antifragile as well. Like, one of the well-known educators, Jimmy Song, has made the argument that it's Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:50", "start": 2809.7, "text": "Often, trying to code up a way to, improve that, and they're constantly focused on that." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "46:55", "start": 2814.76, "text": "Yeah, and I think by, by nature, Bitcoin tends to be antifragile." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:59", "start": 2819.25, "text": "Right. Yeah. Because I think it just, it, it sort of pulls in people, and then people want to help educate other people around it, and that kind of is that, that process helps make it stronger as well. so for you, what was, what was your motivation around wanting to try and get into the game of, you know, helping educate new people about Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "47:20", "start": 2839.72, "text": "Future, and I like helping my" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:21", "start": 2840.94, "text": "friends." }, { "speaker": "former_olympic_wrestler", "time": "47:22", "start": 2841.5, "text": "It's that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:22", "start": 2841.82, "text": "simple. No, that's great. I, I think it's, there are people you try and reach, but I think it-- there are certain people who it's easier to reach." }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "47:31", "start": 2851.41, "text": "Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I know exactly. I mean, those guys who, they, they turn on CNN, Fox News, and, and drink a, diet coke on, on the, on the couch, I ain't trying to talk to them. They got, they got no hope yet. They gotta, they gotta figure" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "47:50", "start": 2869.8, "text": "Who, who are" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:50", "start": 2870.08, "text": "some of the people you found it easier to reach? You want, you want me to name like specific friends of mine? Oh, no, I mean like what sort of person, you know, what sort of interests, what sort of people are they? Oh, oh, is" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "48:00", "start": 2880.03, "text": "obviously open-minded. People who aren't scared of disruption or, to be rebels against the system a little bit, people who see flaws in the banking system, people who, are, are woke and realize that, Our world is run by more than a two party system." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:18", "start": 2897.68, "text": "Yeah, no, that's totally it. I think, I've definitely seen that as well. People who have, more of a willingness to question, I think, were, are the people who I've noticed were more able to kinda get around that idea with Bitcoin. So, Ben, what's the plan for you going forward? Like, are you just gonna, keep, producing podcast episodes? Have you got any other ideas around what you wanna do?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "48:41", "start": 2920.89, "text": "no, I think, I think, I, I'm not an expert on, in, in the subject matter, but I think I, I can present, the, the subject in a really common sense, easy to, easy to understand way. So I have a large following on social media, so just spread the word that way. And then again, I, I believe when the next bull run happens, there's gonna be a whole bunch of people asking questions, and hopefully I'll be there to answer those questions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:07", "start": 2946.75, "text": "Fantastic. So look, Ben, before we finish up, I wanna make sure we finish on time. just Online and, where can they find your podcast?" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "49:17", "start": 2957.46, "text": "Yeah, I'm just Ben Askren on both Twitter and, and Instagram. I post, decent amount of stuff both social media. And then, my-- I have a channel on a network called Rockfin. There is, it is a pay-to-subscribe, but I put, I put all of my, my, crypto podcast in front of the paywall. So if you go over there and check it out, you don't need to go behind the paywall to" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:39", "start": 2979.07, "text": "see" }, { "speaker": "ben_askren", "time": "49:39", "start": 2979.19, "text": "the crypto podcast." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:40", "start": 2980.05, "text": "Fantastic. Well, we" }, { "speaker": "former_olympic_wrestler", "time": "49:45", "start": 2984.68, "text": "Alright, have a great day." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:46", "start": 2985.98, "text": "Alright, I hope you enjoyed that. As always, show notes and the links to subscribe to my show are at stephanlivera dot com. Any feedback for me, you can email me stephanlivera at pm dot me. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }