{
  "episodeId": "SLP141",
  "speakers": {
    "stephan": {
      "name": "Stephan Livera",
      "role": "host",
      "tag": "STEPHAN"
    },
    "american_hodl": {
      "name": "American HODL",
      "role": "guest",
      "tag": "AMERICAN"
    }
  },
  "segments": [
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "00:08",
      "start": 7.79,
      "text": "Hi, you're listening to the Stefan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today for episode one hundred and forty-one, my guest is American HODL. So firstly, this podcast is brought to you by Kraken, one of the world's leading Bitcoin exchanges. They're renowned for their focus on security with Kraken Security Labs assessing not just their own security, but the security of other partners in the industry. They're one of the longest standing Bitcoin Bitcoin exchanges, they're consistently rated the best, they've got some of the best liquidity in the industry with high trading volume and low fees. Kraken also offer twenty four seven support and on the institutional and business solution side, they've got best in class accounting, reconciliation and reporting services. Kraken also offer an OTC desk for those seeking higher touch large block trades. They offer six fiat currencies, they also offer margin and futures trading and also check out Kraken Pro mobile app delivering all the security and features you Love about the Kraken exchange in a beautiful mobile-first design. Go and sign up at kraken dot com. This episode is also presented to you by Unchained Capital. Unchained Capital is a Bitcoin financial services company empowering customers with financial freedom and control. All of their products and services are built on the foundation of multisig and their approach to collaborative custody gives users control over their private keys as well as the benefit of a financial partner and financial services. Unchained offer two of three multi-signature vaults. These are a great option if you're thinking about how best to secure your Bitcoin for the long term, and then if you ever need to access liquidity but you don't wanna sell your Bitcoin, Unchained offer collateralized loans. All the Bitcoin is stored on chain, dedicated multisig addresses, and the BTC is never rehypothecated. I'm really impressed with Unchained, they offer excellent services, they've got some awesome content such as Parker Lewis' Gradually Then Suddenly series, or look up some of their open source tools, Hermit and Caravan. I think you'll enjoy partnering with them, go and learn more at Unchained Dash Check out GiveBitcoin.io, the easiest and safest way to get your friends and family into Bitcoin. Have you ever given Bitcoin to people before and found that they lost it? Well, that's part of what GiveBitcoin is going to help with, because you can buy a Bitcoin for friends and family with just their email address, and that gift is actually time delayed with a regulated US custodian for one year, and then during that time, GiveBitcoin is delivering monthly lessons to that recipient to speed them through the learning curve of becoming a hodler. There's been a lot of positive feedback, and don't forget, Bitcoin has input from many well-known bitcoiners including Safteen, Matt O'Dell, Brady from Citizen Bitcoin, Jan Pritzker is now the CTO. I'm also an advisor with a small equity stake assisting with the curriculum also. So keep an eye out, there's more coming. Go to givebitcoin dot io. I'm really excited about this company and go and check them out. Lastly, check out CipherSafe. CipherSafe dot io. They're producing the CipherWheel product. If you've invested in our Bitcoin hardware wallet, you've got a bip39 seed, but have you backed Rustproof, petproof, tamper evident. So look into CipherWheel, it's a product that comes in a wheel shape, it masks the words of your seed unless you open the padlock tamper evident seal so you know if it's been opened. And CipherSafe are switching the stainless steel alloy used so the product provides more corrosion resistance, and the product also scored an A versus heat and crushing on Jameson Lobs recent round of physical seed testing. So make sure you or your loved ones have access to bitcoins if an accident occurs. The orders will be going out in early February, go and order Ciphersafe dot io. So today my interview is with American HODL, a fun character from Bitcoin Twitter. So we talk about hodler stories, conviction, this debate around spend and replace versus hodl, and Bitcoin citadels and a range of things. Just a quick note, there is obviously a lot of swearing in this episode, so just be wary if you've got kids in the car or around. But nevertheless, a very fun conversation. Here's the interview. American HODL, welcome to the show. Stephan Livera, the one"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "03:58",
      "start": 238.02,
      "text": "and the only. How's it going, man? I'm a, I'm a huge fan of this show. This is, this is one-- it's tied with Tails for the Crypt. I know that I went on Tails for the Crypt and I said that you were too polished, but like, I, I need that because this is-- you're honestly my Bitcoin op tech, because I'm just, I-- for whatever reason, I can't read through op tech. So you're my op tech."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "04:21",
      "start": 261.19,
      "text": "the audio op tech. Someone should actually start a Bitcoin op tech audio podcast, actually. That would"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "04:30",
      "start": 270.06,
      "text": "to me and tell me what's going on, because trying to read through op tech or like the IRC or anything that's very technical for me, a non-technical person, is so hard. It's crazy. Yeah,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "04:42",
      "start": 282.05,
      "text": "yeah. I know for a little while, Max Hillbrand from, he was doing it for World CryptoNet, so he would do a little like read-throughs, or maybe, you know, Guy Swan. Guy Swan does a good job with that kind of thing as well, like taking an article and then making it into an audio version, and, and then he layers on"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "05:00",
      "start": 300.0,
      "text": "I was with, Max was like, \"That was the thing that got me to finally get off my lazy ass and do multisig, you know?\" 'Cause I was just like, \"Oh man, multisig makes so much sense, and I've just been dragging my feet on it, you know.\""
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "05:13",
      "start": 312.87,
      "text": "Yeah, well, I think that series, and I think particularly the Michael Flaxman episode, that was what really like drove people like, \"Oh, damn, I actually need to think about this now.\" Yup. Right? So, look, man, let's hear a little bit about you. What were some of your priors before Bitcoin? Like, were you-- It sounds like you were kind of already a libertarian before Bitcoin. I was. Is that true?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "05:32",
      "start": 331.56,
      "text": "Yeah, and I was, I was amenable to the, the Ron Paul campaign, although I wasn't very politically active, And just shit on both sides, you know? And I'm like, \"Listen, n-n-nothing that you're saying makes sense, and it seems like you, you're both intent on driving us off a cliff, Bonnie and Clyde style. so it's sort of-- I've, I've had an opt-out mentality long before Bitcoin, you know? But then when you find Bitcoin, you're like- Okay, now I can actually opt out. Before I was just sort of being an asshole and a misanthrope for, as, as a rebellious act. Now it has meaning and power behind it, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "06:10",
      "start": 369.99,
      "text": "Yeah, right. It reminds me of, Harry Browne's classic, right? How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, right? That's- I haven't, I haven't read that one yet, but- Yeah. But basically it's, it's like, it's, it's a similar kind of idea of like, how can you live free"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "06:28",
      "start": 388.46,
      "text": "Like interests and so on, and that you can like lead by example and, and some of this also plays into, you know, obviously the sovereign individual and some of those ideas and what we, what, what do we think of, what society we're going to live in?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "06:41",
      "start": 400.69,
      "text": "It's so fascinating 'cause it's like, are we just living in some sort of a passive labyrinth? Or, you know, we're wandering passively through this labyrinth, this maze that's been designed for us in order to get us to, you know, make X, Y, or Z decision, right? And"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "06:58",
      "start": 418.48,
      "text": "To follow your heart in a world where your heart is being gamed by algorithms all day long, right? 'Cause I, you know, I don't know what following my heart means anymore. I try and do my best, but I think I'm getting caught up in it just as much as anybody is."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "07:11",
      "start": 431.3,
      "text": "Right, and I would say it's not even just the algorithms part, it's actually at a very fundamental level- Oh, it's structural, yeah, totally. What impact does low interest rates have, right? And there are entire industries where we don't know if they're actually a bubble or not, right? We just don't know that because we're living in this kind of funny money world with low interest rates and zombie companies, you know, Uber and some of these other companies that are just living by VC funding, they're not actually profitable, right? So some of these companies, I"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "07:41",
      "start": 460.86,
      "text": "Well, and then, you know, and, and we see that spill into the crypto space, right? Because these guys can't IPO the way they used to back in the early two thousands and the late nineties, right? So they're looking at, these illiquid shitcoins and dump their bags on investors, 'cause, you know, you, you kick up the private valuations behind closed doors in Silicon Valley, right? And then you gotta-- there's gotta be an, a liquidity event, you know, as they, as they call it, but you have to dump it on unsus"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "08:11",
      "start": 490.88,
      "text": "All this kind of stuff. It's, it, which to me is immoral, right? Especially if you know better, which I consider them-- I think they all know better, they just may have a different, set of moral priors than we do."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "08:25",
      "start": 504.97,
      "text": "Right, yeah. And, I think maybe it's like, once people are kind of in that world and all their friends are doing that, you know, it's just a cool thing to do, and, you know, everyone else is doing it, why can't I do it, kind of thing. Right. And then they, they, they get into that mindset, and then they don't actually stop and think about, well, who, who is the unseen victim here? Like people who just bought the lie and were the bagholders for"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "08:52",
      "start": 532.08,
      "text": "I think that we've coalesced around the correct answer to like what is plaguing our times, right? Which is that the money's fucked up. I mean, that's, that goes without saying. And, you know, I was, I was in-- It was interestingly like I was perusing, the website that Ben Prentice put together, the \"What the Fuck Happened in 1971?\" And, you know, I started thinking about postmodernism, right? And the school of postmodern thought. And, you know, postmodernism appears"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "09:22",
      "start": 562.36,
      "text": "We are now decoupled from reality, and we are going to be playing power games with each other, and our political ideology is going to be the most important thing above race, above class, above social status, right? And so we see, we see this permeate across culture and all the stuff that we're experiencing, you know, the Me Too movement, you're a racist, you know, all, all this kind of stuff, either the Trump movement in America, like everything. I think it all is just a basic, it's a power game that's being played between people, who wanna be closer to the money spigot, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "09:57",
      "start": 597.03,
      "text": "That's right. And I think a lot of it also flows from kind of, you get criticized based on what side of politics you're from, it's not really about like what your actual argument was or what you did, right? And so you see this kind of, when people talk about, talk about like, what is a strong female, right? And then they might look at only the strong females from the left, and they wouldn't really, point out any examples of"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "10:22",
      "start": 622.28,
      "text": "Double standard, if you will."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "10:24",
      "start": 623.52,
      "text": "Go even deep, go even deeper, you know? Like, why do we need strong females and independent women? It's because we've been stuck in the dual income trap, and, you know, a single income can't support a family anymore for most people in the developed world. And it's worse in the, in the third world, right? So it's like- Man, I, you know, maybe we're wrong that it's, that it's the money that, that, has caused all these social problems, but it doesn't feel like we're wrong, right? Fea-- it feels like we're, we're spot on right."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "10:55",
      "start": 654.68,
      "text": "Oh yeah, but I think the fundamental problem and that this is one of the challenges we face is trying to communicate to people why that is, because we're trying to tell people, look at the root cause, right? What you guys are talking about or these other-- that's like surface level, that's the symptom, that isn't the root cause. What is the root cause? It's you've screwed up the money, and then that's enabled all of these other things, like it's enabled a massive welfare state, it's enabled big statism, right? And then it's enabled all these deg"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "11:24",
      "start": 683.96,
      "text": "So American HODL, I'd like to hear some of your stories, man. I know you have this story of a moped."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "11:31",
      "start": 690.99,
      "text": "you know what's funny, I put this on Twitter and Trace liked it, which, Trace Mayer, which, which made me feel good. I was like, you know what? I, I got respect from the OG HODLer of Last Resort because of my extreme HODLing. So what happened was my wife was going to, master school, to be a nurse practitioner, and I needed five grand for tuition, Spells where I didn't have five grand, right? and I was like, \"Well,\" she was like, \"You can sell the Bitcoin.\" I was, \"I'm not selling the Bitcoin.\" At this point, Bitcoin is around five hundred dollars, so this would have been ten bitcoins, right? So I sold my car instead, which was worth around five grand. I paid off her I paid off her loan, and then I bought this little shitty Chinese moped called a Tao Tao 50. It's 50 CCs, its max speed is 35 miles per hour, right? And like, granted, at this point, Stephan, my net worth is like $400,000, right? Like, I'm, I don't need to be riding this fucking moped. I'm going to parties, I'm, I'm pulling up on a moped, people are making fun of me, it's a terrible summer for me. And then in 116. I got flip-flops on, I'm wearing no helmet, I crashed this moped one day, my shoulder still clicks from that crash, okay? And I did this all to save ten Bitcoin. And I can't wait for Bitcoin to get to a hundred thousand dollars so that that is a million dollar moped story. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's gonna"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "13:03",
      "start": 783.11,
      "text": "be like the new Bitcoin pizza story. Well, I think it's,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "13:11",
      "start": 790.88,
      "text": "I think it's important to do these things, you know, sort of on a psychological level, but also, you have to sacrifice to win, you know, that's just how it goes, and it's the hardest in the beginning when you're just trying to build up. Right now, it's not that hard for me to sacrifice, I just move money around or maybe I sell some stocks or whatever it is, you know? But back then, man. It was painful. It was, it was brutally painful."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "13:34",
      "start": 814.12,
      "text": "Yeah, and, so I, I presume from the price that was roughly-- Was that twenty fifteen? That would have been like-- Yeah,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "13:40",
      "start": 820.27,
      "text": "summer of fifteen, I think. Yeah. Or maybe-- And so-- Yeah, summer of fifteen, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "13:46",
      "start": 825.83,
      "text": "Yeah. look, tell us a little bit about your mindset at that time, right? Like, were you thinking, \"Oh, shit, Bitcoin might not rise back up above all-time high again?\" What were you thinking?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "13:56",
      "start": 836.34,
      "text": "No, you know what's weird? Since the moment I actually looked into Bitcoin and, Did my research about it, read the white paper, got on Reddit, got on the forums. Like there weren't pod-- there weren't good podcasts like yours back then, you know, you remember, it was just a bunch of people talking shit on Reddit. So you just had to read Reddit, read Bitcoin Talk to figure out what the hell was going on, read the IRC maybe. So, you know, the minute I started doing that, I had almost no doubt because my first, you know, I immediately wrote off Bitcoin because I thought it was something like the Pirate Bay. I thought it And I was like, \"Listen, I don't wanna be part of that, right? \" 'Cause I, I knew about it way back in twenty twelve. and, you know, that's, that's one of the worst decisions of my life. It was not my own ignorance in twenty twelve keeping me from further investigating, because I didn't make my first buy until late twenty fourteen, right? so I think my mindset at the time when I was riding the moped was like, \"Shit, I have a lot of catching up to do, \" you know? I could"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "15:00",
      "start": 899.78,
      "text": "And at that time, two hundred and twenty dollars to five hundred dollars, which is what was going on in twenty fifteen, that seemed like a lot of money to pay for coins, you know? 'Cause there were guys like Trace who got in at a nickel and stuff like that, right? And you're hearing all these stories like, \"Fuck, I wish I would have got in at a nickel,\" right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "15:19",
      "start": 918.82,
      "text": "How about now dealing with the volatility, the big swings, right? Because during those times, there were days where Bitcoin might swing-- now, I don't, I don't know the exact numbers, but it might be thirty, forty percent in a day, right? And that can be quite a lot to bear. And people talk about, you know, how, how do you, how do you go to sleep at night, thinking that Bitcoin could crash and you might wake up and it's down thirty percent from where you were the night before? What was your feeling on that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "15:46",
      "start": 945.84,
      "text": "Man, you know Around Christmas of 2014, and, I think like in January of 2015, it dropped a lot, it dropped from like two hundred something to like one seventy eight or something like that. And so immediately I was like, \"Shit, I just lost thirty percent, like I'm a fucking idiot. My father was right. I shouldn't have never invested in this internet money.\" You know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "16:09",
      "start": 968.94,
      "text": "After that, I-- after that it was just like smooth sailing 'cause after that moment, that initial drop, back then, at that time, it just kept going up. and so ever since then, I've just been in profit and it's a lot easier for me. I think if you miss-- and that's luck, right? Like I didn't really time the market, I didn't really know it was going on. I knew it had fallen from a thousand, you know, twelve hundred, whatever it was, and that it was, you know, two hundred looks cheap in"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "16:38",
      "start": 998.44,
      "text": "Yeah, who knows, you know, we never know what's gonna happen."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "16:42",
      "start": 1001.62,
      "text": "Right, and I guess that's the question then, because how do you know-- Would you have had-- Would we have had the cojones to keep holding even if it had gone from two hundred down to eighty dollars, right? Would you have held? And who knows."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "16:51",
      "start": 1011.34,
      "text": "I think I would have because of sunk cost fallacy. I think I would have just kept holding on. Somebody, somebody told me that I was talking to somebody and they were asking my advice on Twitter, and they were like, \"Damn, dude,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "17:08",
      "start": 1028.44,
      "text": "Yeah, right all the way back down. I bought a shitload at the, at the bottom, like around thirty-two hundred to six thousand, you know, because I just have unshakable conviction and, It's very hard to explain where the conviction comes from, and I think it just comes from my entire life experience leading me to this point and knowing that Bitcoin is something so"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "17:32",
      "start": 1052.17,
      "text": "It's, it's like a gift, right? It's like, it's something so different than anything we've had before, and it's, God, it's so hard to describe just when you see it, right? 'Cause you're, you're kinda searching for something, and for me, as soon as I found Bitcoin, I was like, okay, the search is over. Like, I don't even really look at stocks or, you know, do investments anymore because I don't expect anything to outcompete Bitcoin for the, for the near term, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "17:59",
      "start": 1078.9,
      "text": "Right, on the risk-adjusted basis, you think Bitcoin is just gonna outperform these other things, so yeah, it's a, it's a tough one. and look, now let me just slightly push back here because there is a, there's a counter-narrative that's happening now, and I, my view on this is actually it's- So this whole idea of hodl versus spend and replace, right? And there's a almost perceived conflict that I think it's actually not that much of a conflict, and it's kind of being blown out of proportion, right? Because there are some other people, like, for example, someone like Ragnar, right? Like he might say, \"Oh, instead of only hodling, you should also be, you know, using BTC Pay Server, and you should be using coin joining, and you should be doing lightning and so on, and that all these people out there, they're coming out and just talking Likes and retweets and Twitter engagement and whatever, but actually, we need to also build a Bitcoin community. So what's your reflection on that kind of idea as well?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "18:55",
      "start": 1134.86,
      "text": "Well, you know, it's, I think Bitcoin's in the eye of the beholder, right? I'm a, I'm a wealthy American, I have privilege, so I'm gonna be okay no matter what happens. So Bitcoin is an investment for me. You know, I don't, I don't need Bitcoin to make purchases. I, I make a Lightning purchase when I buy a hat as, as like a Bitcoin to make some international payments, and that's been very useful for me, and I did spend and replace at the time, but it feels b- like, I'll give you an example, I was doing an animated commercial, and I paid an animator in South Korea, two bitcoins back in twenty fifteen for his work on this commercial, right? And that's now sixteen thousand dollars, right? So it's like, I, I did make sure to spend and replace it, but I, I, I just don't, I don't know, man. I don't think it, for me personally, as somebody who has extreme privilege, I don't think it's the right time to spend Bitcoin. That's just how I feel about it, you know? Right. I don't begrudge people who do though, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "19:56",
      "start": 1196.46,
      "text": "Yeah, that's right. I think that's a good point, that it's not that you're begrudging people who do, but it's like for you personally, it might not make that much sense. Now, I guess there's different counterpoints and things to consider, right? So for example, if you are already, for some people, that if they're already all in Bitcoin and their income is in Bitcoin, well, then obviously you have to spend Bitcoin, right? So that's, there's no, you know, no one like makes any bones about that. But then it might be in Maybe it's a privacy thing, right? The only reason you do it is for privacy reasons, or maybe you just like the slick experience of just like, pull out my phone, scan it, pay it, done, like the convenience factor, right? Totally. So maybe that's an element there as well where those kinds of people might want to spend in some cases. But now the flip side, again, is tax, right? Because capital gains, yeah, it's, it's difficult, depending on which country you're in, and if you're a public name and you are kind of admitting Like generally speaking, you don't want to, if you're a public name, you don't wanna spend your Bitcoin from the tax point of view, but if, I guess if you're more like a, you know, if you're under a pseudonym, then maybe it, yeah, you can just kind of, peop-- those kinds of people probably would just be spending. But what's your, what's your take on that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "21:13",
      "start": 1273.39,
      "text": "Man, it's You brought up a lot of good points there in that regard. You know, it's-- Let me ask you this question. do you think that we're being-- You, you listened to that epsilon theory episode with, Marty Bent, right? Did you hear that one? Yeah, I disagreed with it, but yeah, go on. I disagreed with it pretty strongly as well, but, but one of his contentions was that we're being ghettoized, as he called it, and that we're sort of-- We're, we're taking over where the gold bugs were"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "21:42",
      "start": 1301.59,
      "text": "and we're And you need a pocket for those people to go in, and his contention is that we are now taking that flag from the gold bugs, right? it's interesting because we already kind of can't spend Bitcoin in America. not in, in easy, not, not legally, right? Like if I wanted to spend ten-- if I wanted to send you ten thousand dollars, I mean, I have to pay tax on that, as though it was a capital gain, which is-- so I'm spending, that's a twenty percent tax to send you money, right? So that's pr-- that's pretty- That incentivizes me in a way that I wouldn't send you money if I thought there was any reasonable chance someone was going to track that transaction and trace it back to me. Right? So that is why privacy is important in, in terms of spending. I, it's interesting what's happening with Lightning Network and there's a lot of privacy, gains that come there. Obviously, it's not perfect, and nothing's perfect. But I am starting to come around more on the view that we live in a world with zero privacy, right? Like after the new news that, from Apple just came out that they're scanning everybody's iCloud, and Apple's supposed to be a \"quote unquote\" privacy good guy, and they're, you know, they're directly"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "22:59",
      "start": 1378.96,
      "text": "Agencies to, you know, offer them this data and who is-- We have to just trust them basically, right? And, I'm sick of just trusting powerful people who continue to lie to us."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "23:08",
      "start": 1387.91,
      "text": "You know? Right. There's a lot that, yeah. So I, one point that came to my mind is maybe that's an argument there for jurisdictional competition, right? It's like, somewhere like Singapore, no CGT, or Switzerland, no CGT, or Germany, if you hold for one year, I think there's no CGT. So there's country, and maybe Bitcoiners will have to move, to get better treatment. Yeah. So, and then maybe it does make sense to spend, right? There's,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "23:37",
      "start": 1417.05,
      "text": "there's also"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "23:38",
      "start": 1417.51,
      "text": "the idea"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "23:38",
      "start": 1418.0,
      "text": "that you can out-hodl the US government, right? That's right. That's an idea that I really enjoy. Like, I don't have to pay taxes if I hodl until the IRS is no longer a thing. Right? Or like, you know, we have tax deferred accounts here in America as well. So like, I have, Bitcoin in a Roth and in a Roth IRA here in America, you don't have to pay tax on it after-- when you're sixty-five, it's a retirement account, right? So that's a portion of Bitcoin that they can never tax me on. And like, Stefan, I'm a little crazy. So when- When I sell, if I sell Bitcoin, which I never do, for this reason, I view it as funding the enemy. You know, I, I view it as I'm ceding power and control to the state, and they can continue to put these oppressive laws on me. But if I, if I hold, if I take control of my power from them, well, that's a victory in, in the sense that the more people that do that, the quicker we can bring about the change we wanna see in the world, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "24:37",
      "start": 1477.07,
      "text": "Right. I agree with you there. Like That fundamentally, if people can by holding deny tax revenue to the government, then in that sense you're helping deny funding to the government, right? And in a legal way,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "24:50",
      "start": 1490.05,
      "text": "right? It's a judo move because it's totally legal, so you're using their own rules against them, right? Right, yeah. We all know that what Bitcoin is destined to be, or we hope it's destined to be. I walk around from a place of Bitcoin is, is inevitable, but that's probably, you know, not something that you should be doing, right? That's, I, I just have sort of like, you know, maybe it's Dunning-Kruger or something, but I just have unshakable conviction, and so I honestly do believe things like that when I say I can out-haul the US government, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "25:21",
      "start": 1520.81,
      "text": "Right."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "25:21",
      "start": 1521.23,
      "text": "You"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "25:21",
      "start": 1521.31,
      "text": "just Because, you know, Ben Hunt, going back to what Ben Hunt was saying about, okay, Bitcoin is the way to contain the rage and the out, you know, it's just like the new gold bugs and so on. And I suppose for me, the way I would distinguish, I would say, well, Bitcoin is different in that it's got this fundamental, you know, number go up factor of it, right? Like it's just the, the scarcity of it is just so much more that longer term it would just drive number go up. And then what does that do? It just Create a real parallel system that people can actually, you know, just transact completely outside the purview of the government. But what's your take there?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "26:03",
      "start": 1562.78,
      "text": "No, I, I 100% agree with you, and I also think there's an important, psychological difference between us and the gold bugs. You know, the gold bugs tend to be a little older than we are, or they're a lot older than we are. Most of them are baby boomers. I don't know how old you are, Stefan, but I'm 30. And so I, I sort of rationally optimistic and hopeful about the future because we do have an asymmetric encryption tool that we can use to fight back, right? The Goldbugs were lobbying government, trying to use government's rules And play on their turf, you know, it, it, it's like marching against the British redcoats in, in lockstep formation, as compared to what we're doing is guerrilla warfare. We're hiding in the trees and waiting to take out officers and not abiding by the rules of engagement. It, it just isn't gonna happen when you try and play it their way, right? You have to build the parallel system and then- Do it your own way, you know. You have to take back control."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "27:04",
      "start": 1623.7,
      "text": "Yeah, that's right. And I think the, the other factor that's in the favor of Bitcoin is here, is that it's, is-- that it really is international, right? Yeah. So just because the US government doesn't lo- even, like, let's hypothetically say the US government was coming after every Bitcoiner, well- H-how are you gonna stop them going elsewhere, right? How are you gonna stop people in South America just using Bitcoin and Lightning as their own way to transact, right? You're just not gonna be able to stop it globally. And,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "27:28",
      "start": 1647.93,
      "text": "and, and try getting me to pay an exit tax, right? How are you gonna prove it? Like seriously, when you leave America right now, America's one of the only countries that does this, but you have to pay an exit tax to leave America's system, right? It's, which is a crazy idea when you think about it, from first principles. Good luck trying to get me to do that, right? 'Cause you can't prove how much I have. I have six point one five, and that's all you-- That's"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "27:52",
      "start": 1672.44,
      "text": "all you're gonna ever know I'm ever gonna have, you know? Right. Now, again, let me playfully push back here. They might say, \"Well...\" Your KYC, so we'll just go and ask every company that, you know, KYC'd Bitcoin and then say, \"Well, look, I see there's this many buys, the, it looks like you got more than six point one five, right?\" So again, these are all things"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "28:12",
      "start": 1692.0,
      "text": "that we have to think about, right? That's true, that's true. Actually, that's why, I guess, this is why mixing is so important, right? Or, you know, I do, obviously, perfect privacy is getting your coins in a way that isn't KY Game on, by their rules when we say KYC, you know, know your customer. No, this is like, this is like dr- this is like Orwellian privacy intrusion. Know your customer makes it sound so friendly, like know your neighbor, you know? Yeah."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "28:45",
      "start": 1725.02,
      "text": "Oh, I agree, I agree. I mean, I hate, as much as I hate, I hate these laws. I think they're terrible. Like AML sanctions laws, you know, FATCA, CRS, whatever, all these like laws, they just force so much financial surveillance into the whole system. And not only that, they deputize banks and Bitcoin exchanges and Bitcoin companies to do the bidding of the government, right? So then, and then what it does is it sort of turns people against each other as well, because now you see Bitcoiners who are like trying to, you At the same time, exchanges, like, if they're gonna operate legally, they have to do all this AML, financial surveillance, spying stuff. So it's, it's, it's a really complicated situation, right? I guess there are different takes on it. It's so"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "29:27",
      "start": 1767.09,
      "text": "complicated, this is why I don't, I, you know, I think p- being perfectly cypherpunk is sort of like being, perfectly AnCap or something, right? It's, it's an ideal to strive for. I- Is it a practical reality? No, not they're wearing masks to conferences and getting voice change surgery and things like this, and it's like, you can't, that's not gonna work, man. Like, we"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "29:54",
      "start": 1794.0,
      "text": "can't all do that, you know? Yeah, and, while we're on this topic, I think Safteen had an interesting hypothetical which you might have seen. He asked that question of, \"Imagine every sat, every sat was KYC'd.\" Would you still accumulate Bitcoin, or would you hold it, or would you sell it? What would you do? What's your, what's your take there? So"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "30:14",
      "start": 1813.76,
      "text": "my answer is, yes, I would still be accumulating, right? And I think the people like epsilon theory would say that I'm, I'm being ghettoized, right? Because I'm, I'm taking my shiny prize, like they're giving me a carrot basically. It's silver lead, which is a classic, you know, that, that's as old as time, right? And I'm taking the money grab,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "30:34",
      "start": 1833.61,
      "text": "and I'm Primary motivation, like that's why I got in Bitcoin, right? But I, you know, at some point we're going to have to possibly eschew that and commit to hodling Possibly until the next generation. I know that sounds kinda crazy to say, but I don't know, I mean, when I think about having a mansion and a Ferrari, it's not as important to me as reshaping society for my children, you know? And I, I honestly mean that when I say that. So I, I hope that when push comes to shove, I am able to make the, what I feel to be the correct moral decision in that regard, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "31:12",
      "start": 1872.08,
      "text": "Yeah, there's, yeah, and I think there is-- there are some tools in the toolbox of a Bitcoiner. So for example, this idea of putting it up as collateral, right? So instead of selling, instead of like incurring the capital gain and paying tax to the government, you can take a loan, right? And so again, now disclosure, obviously Unchain Capital are a sponsor of my podcast, right? So yeah, listeners, beware, maybe I'm talking my book here, but theoretically, that helps you by avoiding the tax obligation. And now, yes, you are paying interest, And yes, there might be certain conditions on which you can do that, right? It might be for commercial purposes. But if you've got a business, then maybe that is the way that people can safely, you know, in a tax-compliant way, still access their Bitcoin's wealth, but not- or at least reduce their tax obligation. So American HODL, what's your reflection then on, that idea of using collateral, as a tax, legal tax strategy?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "32:10",
      "start": 1929.54,
      "text": "I think it's a, I think it's a great idea. I think a lot of Bitcoiners are probably gonna employ that in the next, bull run. I'll tell you what I don't like is BlockFi's interest accounts. I don't think those make any sense. I, I've not been a fan of those at all."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "32:22",
      "start": 1941.73,
      "text": "Right. And I, I guess the main risk is really, I think it's, it's not, it's not necessarily unethical for them to try to offer it, it's more just, is there, the question is, is the risk-adjusted return appropriate for the Bitcoiner who's putting up their bitcoins, right? Because they're risking their bitcoins, and- Right, yeah, right, and that's, I guess that's the argument about is, you know, how good is the risk management, systems and strategies of, say, BlockFi or whoever is offering that kind of service, because, you know, they- They're taking your Bitcoin and then they, they are probably giving that to a short seller, right? And if that-- if the collateral, requirement i-is not enough or if there's a big move in the Bitcoin price, does that mean that the person on that other side is getting stopped out or whatever? And then is the Bitcoin holder at risk there? So totally."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "33:15",
      "start": 1995.34,
      "text": "Yeah. I, you know? It's interesting. I think they're interesting products, I think there may be second order and third order effects that we're not aware of now that could come to bear and, if they become super popular, I anticipate us seeing some of those second order and third order effects, you know? What, what I was gonna say though is one of the things that, When I think about the whole game theoretical aspect of this, right, like where Bitcoin goes, you know, at least in America, money is speech, and it's kind of, it's kind of true globally as well. And I think that the more that number goes up, the more wealthy Bitcoiners there are, the more likely it is that we're gonna get laws that are gonna be favorable to us, you know? The baby boomers are dying at, you know, pretty, it's pretty steep, it's, it's getting steeper by the day, and they're reaching that point in the need to write the laws forever, and we can come in and get laws that are favorable to us, because, you know, truthfully, it's completely asinine the way the current system is treating Bitcoin, and it's unfair, it's unjust. We should be able to do with our property as we please, and, you know, getting taxed every which way from Sunday is, it's just like- We were talking on Twitter earlier about, you know, you can't even own your home because, let's say you, you work real hard for twenty years, you buy a house in cash, and you decide, \"I just wanna live a simple life and, you know, sort of make my own clothes and grow my own food,\" right? Sounds great, happy ending for the type of person who wants to do that. Nope, you need to go to work and get like a part-time job at McDonald's so you can pay the property taxes, because you're not free anymore, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "34:50",
      "start": 2089.76,
      "text": "Right, becomes more viable, even if it is at, let's say, for example, Texas, right? So Texas has its own culture and there's kind of that idea of, you know, maybe Texas could someday succeed and maybe other countries could, you know, and split it up and bring it down more to the local level, at least where it can be done, right? And then hopefully the rules are being set more by your own actual community who you live with and not some random bureaucrat who lives, you know, a thousand kilometers away or whatever."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "35:21",
      "start": 2120.8,
      "text": "Well, that was supposed to be, you know United States, which-- and we are one of the only nations that's founded on an ideology, and the ideology was, \"Hey, if we wanna secede, if we wanna leave, we'll, we're-- we can do it, right?\" And Abraham Lincoln, a lot of people view him as, you know, a great president, and he was a great president for ending slavery, slavery needed to be ended. But in ending slavery, he did things that were very unconstitutional, like suspending habeas corpus, et cetera, and basically he allowed the South to not-- It's funny when the Californians want us to secede, because it's like, \"Shut up, you bunch of hippies, just sit down and shut the fuck up, you know.\" If Texas wants us to secede, though, you're like, \"Alright, let's, hey, let's not do anything crazy here, Texas. We can talk, we can talk this through, you know?\" You actually, you believe it. When Texans want to succeed, you believe them,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "36:11",
      "start": 2171.46,
      "text": "you know? That's right. yeah. A-and I think part of it comes to culture as well, right? Like there's a certain culture that I sense, particularly out of Texan, Americans that I've met, they tend to have that very, there's a certain culture, right? There's certain cultural differences."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "36:27",
      "start": 2187.27,
      "text": "Texas is the last place in the Union that, changes you before you can change it, right? Like Texas is Texas, and it will always be Tex-- I love Texas. I have family down there, and, it's a great place"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "36:43",
      "start": 2202.72,
      "text": "Look, once we get the citadel set up, maybe"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "36:46",
      "start": 2206.16,
      "text": "the Austin, the Austin citadel is looking strong, you know, all the Austin Bitcoiners. That citadel is coming along nicely, you know? The Brooklyn citadel, it's going pretty good. got Marty and Matt and a bunch of other guys up there. We'll have to, we'll have to see. And Wyoming, you know, Wyoming will be a citadel, I'm sure. Oh man. Let me ask you real quick, Stephan, do you actually believe in, do you think that citadels will become a reality?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "37:13",
      "start": 2233.2,
      "text": "I mean, look, it's, it's kind of like we, we all like to joke about it, right? I think- Eventually, people will, you know, move into gated community sort of idea, right? But I, I think it'll start digitally, right? Like, and that's kind of that idea of the sovereign individual or the cypherpunks, you know, they, they spoke about this idea, you know, maybe people can really just start- Sort of seceding even where they are now, and they could, you know, they, they could set up anywhere online and they could just take payment digitally, right? BTC Pay Server, et cetera, right? they could sell digital products as well, right? And it's like, how do you even stop that, right? And I could imagine, right? So again, this is one of those things that I'm, I'm not like Saying everyone should go out there and do this, it's more just like a predictive. I think people will go and do this, right? So people will just go and set up in some like low tax jurisdiction and set up online, and then they'll just take payment in Bitcoin, and then they'll be able to offer services way cheaper because they're not paying as much tax as somebody in a high tax nation. And so I just think naturally that's kind of where it's gonna shift, and then people will just naturally, communities will sprout up around that, and then that could be, you know Citadels, right? That's kind of how I think of it."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "38:30",
      "start": 2309.66,
      "text": "I think it's beautiful, I think it's beautiful the way you put it, because online it's a very utopian vision, when you apply it to base reality, it's a very dystopian vision, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "38:38",
      "start": 2318.0,
      "text": "Right, yeah. And I think, now the part on that original, like the, the meme, you know, the initial post was very bad. It was like, oh, people who aren't in the citadels, you're gonna be like living, it's gonna be like, you know And you don't have access to food and clean water and whatever, or it's like a Mad Max scenario. I, it's not, it's not like that, right? Like I think of it more like people in the, what we call citadels would just be more like, that'll be a more prosperous nation, right? So those places that aren't citadels would be like the, you know, the North Korea equivalent, right? It'll be like living in a backwards country compared to living in a very technologically advanced and developed nation that we would expect to see in a real free"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "39:27",
      "start": 2367.26,
      "text": "Well, you know, it's funny because the elites of the current fiat system already live in citadels. I went to a, a buddy's house who's very wealthy, and he lives inside of a triple gate. There's a gate to get in the community, there's a second gate to a more private enclave inside the community, and then he has a gate around his entire property, right? Inside the property is a panic room in the center of his home. so it's like, how much more? How much more insulated could you be from real life, right? That is a citadel."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "39:57",
      "start": 2397.02,
      "text": "Right, yeah. And, you see those, I don't know how much reality of it there is, but you see those news articles of like, \"Oh, look, this billionaire, he went and bought a bunker and he's bought all this like prepping gear, right? Like a prepper would. But this is like a billionaire doing it, and they've got like a bunker and they've got all their food supplies and whatever, right? So, yeah, maybe you're"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "40:19",
      "start": 2419.04,
      "text": "right that more accessible for people to actually save and store their own wealth properly rather than having to, you know, everyone play the stock market,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "40:31",
      "start": 2430.85,
      "text": "casino, and bonds game. Totally, 'cause Bitcoin is for everybody. Bitcoin is a savings account for everybody that can't be taken from you, you know? Which is, yeah, it's beautiful, that's why I'm here. I, I really do care about, you know, we, we get in trouble sometimes for people saying that we're larping about helping the poor, but When you look at the alternative, which is, you know, if you're a person who's high IQ, you come from privilege, you have the ability to go to work to prop up the current system, right? I think it's a much more moral alternative to- Go to work for the alternative system that theoret-- in theory works for everybody, you know. And we don't know what problems might arise hundreds of years from now and, et cetera, et cetera, but we're doing our best now with what the tools we have available to us, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "41:18",
      "start": 2477.83,
      "text": "Right, and more tools will get built out, right? Bitcoin is only part of it, right? People will get like other privacy tools and, you know, mesh networking and all this other stuff. But, yeah, you know, one, one thing I was also keen to touch on with This whole, you know, six point one five BTC Twitter trolling, and then on the other side, it's like, actually, you've got a family and you've got daughters and, you know, wh-what's the,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "41:45",
      "start": 2504.98,
      "text": "yeah. I think the thing is like, In re- I am very much, I'm very similar in real life in that I've always been the type of person who just says wild shit just for fun, you know? And I do that in real life too. I think the difference is it comes off really hardcore online 'cause you can't tell I'm smiling and laughing behind the keyboard sometimes, right? So- Yeah, right. But, you know- Like, like I said it on Tales from the Crypto, I was like, \"Listen, six point one-- getting to six point one five, and then the idea that that will somehow make beautiful, big-breasted women flock to you, that, that is just a lure to get people in, you know? I hope that people eventually get in, start a family, very low time preference, maybe cut their own hair like Pierre Ouchard does.\" You know, build, build for the, build for a lasting future, you know, because I think that, when you look at people who are, who are older, right? Like, and if you ever been to a nursing home and you've seen somebody who's squandered their life, it-- looking in their eyes is, is the most depressing thing in the world, 'cause you can't get away from The eighty years of bad decisions that you made, right? Whereas when you see other people who did it correctly, they seem to be really happy at the end of their life knowing that they played a part in this grand experiment, of whatever's going on, you know? And I think that as our culture has gotten further degraded, I mean, our culture is so degraded, Stefan, right? I was, I was listening to some old Johnny Cash, I was listening to \"Walk the Line,\" and it's like, these are beautiful lyrics, right? It's like, \"Because you're mine, I walk the line.\" Beautiful. and I was listening to some new trap music, and it was like, \"I put the dick where her booty sit,\" and, that is just not-- that is not poetic, okay? That is, that is very base Right? But it, but it bangs. It's a good song. So we all, we, I think sometimes we all get caught up in this hedonistic lifestyle, because of our current, our current moment. It feels bleak, you know? And for a lot of people, it feels very bleak. So it's like, hey, check out, do drugs, you know, listen to songs where people are talking about skeetin' on bitches or whatever it is. Like, the-- these aren't things that are affirming to the human soul. They don't, so yeah, that's, that's my-- it, it's a, it's a, It's a dichotomy, the six point one five and, and my real life thoughts. Yeah."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "44:17",
      "start": 2656.89,
      "text": "Yeah, yeah. And I think it also ties into something you recently said, which was the Bitcoin baby steps. Tell us a little bit about that. What's the, what are the, what are, what are the Bitcoin baby steps?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "44:27",
      "start": 2667.16,
      "text": "Well, I was listening to Matt O'Dell and I was like, \"Uh, I wanna do more to help noobs, to help new entrants, you know?\" And I, I got criticism on the baby-- So I tried to write a, a step"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "44:42",
      "start": 2681.89,
      "text": "In the word exchange, I use the word app because I don't think most people know what an exchange is, if we're being honest here, right? so I tried to write this very simple guide, and I think the biggest piece of criticism I got from it was, p-- I, I told people to buy Bitcoin twice and then do some other steps before they even got to learning about Bitcoin. But if I'm being totally honest, that was my, journey into Bitcoin. I didn't, I didn't like read the white paper until I already had a lot of Bitcoin, 'cause But it's also just, it's too tough a putt to tell people, hey, like to be a thousand page, you know, Austrian basically, which is like, you know, okay, here you, you, you need to go read, Rothbard, and then you need to go read Mises. That's, no one's doing that. Buy a hundred dollars worth of Bitcoin, save it, go on Reddit, watch some YouTube videos, and take it from there. That's, that's my advice to everybody. Step number one is get Bitcoin, buy Bitcoin, earn Bitcoin In the game, then you're gonna have the incentive to learn more about it, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "45:48",
      "start": 2748.15,
      "text": "Yeah, yeah. And one thing that challenge-- I find as a challenge is a lot of the time we want to try and reach people who are new, but then in reality, our actual followers and listeners and so on are people who are already into Bitcoin, right? So then we end up talking to people who are already into Bitcoin. Now, that said, there's still a role for things like building your local Bitcoin meetup, right? And I'm, I'm one of the organizers of the Bitcoin- And Sydney meetup, and, you know, people can do things in their local scene to try and help, but I think part of the challenge I face is how do you find those new people and how do you get them, how do you kinda get them in the right way rather than like letting them fall victim to the, you know, Nakamoto dot com scams and o- other, associated things. What's your view there?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "46:31",
      "start": 2791.1,
      "text": "Well, it goes even deeper than that because you have to first get them to care about themselves. if you're so depressed and despondent and you"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "46:42",
      "start": 2801.95,
      "text": "Where you feel like, you feel hopeless, you feel like you'll never be able to retire, you feel like family structures are breaking down around you, you feel like societal structures are breaking down around you. You know, we as humans don't do well with that. and if you look at the people who got into early, in early to Bitcoin, they tend to be very contrarian types, disagreeable types. So we're the types who have, for a long time, I'm sure, not been accepting society's rules and regulations. You know, I, I was this-- I And now, right? So it's easier in some ways for me to get it than, than for others to get it. But I think step one is get people to care about themselves, which is fucking hard. I mean, how do you do that? You know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "47:24",
      "start": 2843.78,
      "text": "Yeah, that is a, that is a tough one because most people, they are just so time poor, right? So I talk to some people, right? So some people, I t-- and I guess we've all, all probably many of, you know, you and me and many of my listeners are probably in a similar boat You try to pull them down the rabbit hole with you, right? But then it's just too much of a time commitment for them, 'cause they've got, you know, their other family, their family, their hobbies, whatever, and you're trying to kind of guide them down this path, but it's just, it's too time-consuming for them to really follow you down that path."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "47:57",
      "start": 2876.64,
      "text": "Yeah, that's why, in when I wrote the baby step guide, I told people step one is leave your coins on the exchange, step two is leave your coins on the exchange, right? Because"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "48:12",
      "start": 2891.91,
      "text": "Talking to them about nodes, like I used to have this line I would tell people when I was first explaining Bitcoin, like I was one of those people who, people would ask me, you know, people would ask me about Bitcoin, and I would tell them, \"Listen, in order to understand Bitcoin, you're gonna have to, you're gonna need to have a complex understanding of the history of monetary theory and also a complex understanding of the history of distributed, distributed systems.\" And right there, it's just like telling somebody, \"Fuck you.\" It's just like, \"Fuck you, you're too Responsible. I was like, \"Oh, okay, I'm being responsible.\" But if I had told that person to buy a hundred dollars worth of Bitcoin, that would be, ten thousand dollars right now. So, you know, y- I, man It's really tricky, to figure out how to get people-- you have to be kind of high IQ to understand Bitcoin at this, at this point, right? Which is hard."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "49:04",
      "start": 2943.96,
      "text": "I think you're right. I think you're right, and that, that naturally just cuts down on the audience and cuts down on the people who can get it because we're a bunch of, you know, people who are- Probably more willing to go and do the reading and do the learning. But at, at the same time, number go up is kind of like a marketing factor, and typically a lot of things are just driven by that, right? So what, in, in the past, we've probably seen the number of Bitcoin nodes being run driven a lot by the price going up. We've seen a lot of-- obviously, any Bitcoin company, they start doing well once the price start really starts pumping. So that's probably the, the coming factor that we might see, you know, over this,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "49:44",
      "start": 2983.74,
      "text": "Citadels does increase hodlers of last resort, and hodlers of last resort increase the price floor, right? And I think the price floor is much more important to me than whatever crazy number Bitcoin goes to in the next bull run. Like, Bitcoin could go to seven hundred thousand dollars, it could go to something insane. We don't know. I mean, Plan B is saying a hundred K. I've seen two twenty-five as a prediction, I've seen three sixty as a prediction. You don't know what's gonna happen. We could, we could blast off through the next bull run"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "50:14",
      "start": 3013.78,
      "text": "Okay, like crazy shit can happen. As long as we're minting new hardcore Bitcoiners who understand what's going on, who are committed to seeding Bitcoin with their time and energy, then I think we're in a good place. 'Cause like, u-Stephan, you've been here since like twenty twelve, twenty thirteen?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "50:30",
      "start": 3030.03,
      "text": "Yeah, like, yeah, early twenty thirteen,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "50:32",
      "start": 3031.98,
      "text": "late"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "50:32",
      "start": 3032.14,
      "text": "twenty twelve-ish,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "50:33",
      "start": 3032.92,
      "text": "yeah. That's a pretty significant portion of your life, brother, that you've devoted to Bitcoin, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "50:39",
      "start": 3038.94,
      "text": "Yeah, I guess so. I, I, yeah,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "50:43",
      "start": 3043.48,
      "text": "I And your time-- Right, and your, and your time is a very scarce resource, so you're actually, you're seeding this very scarce resource with a very scarce resource. And I'm in five years now, every day I've been reading about Bitcoin, trying to get educated on Bitcoin, later on trying to help new people get educated about Bitcoin once I understood what was going on, you know? So it's very meaningful what you're, what we're all doing here, what we're all coalescing around, right? Like, your life is in this. It's not just for, it's not just for cheap money, it's not just for Lamborghinis. Like, we're here to actually change shit. That's why we're here, right? And so the more people that understand that message as the price rises, the price rises, it's gonna pull in more people, more people understand that message, and, as long as we keep growing hardcore asshole maximalists"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "51:34",
      "start": 3094.42,
      "text": "and, you mentioned some of the-- I think part of what you say, it comes off, like you've got the, that rational optimist idea, right? It's, there's a book by Matt Ridley, I think he wrote it in, was it twenty twelve or twenty eleven? I remember reading it around then. Have you read that book? I read that book and"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "51:50",
      "start": 3109.98,
      "text": "I, I liked that book a lot, and I think that there's a, Everything starts at that place. Everything good starts at rational optimism, right? You wouldn't, like, let's f- say, for instance, create a family if you thought, \"You know what? This is gonna suck. My kids are gonna be idiots. I'm gonna divorce my wife.\" Like, you just wouldn't do it. It starts at, \"You know what?\" This could work, okay? I know that a lot of people get divorced, I know a lot of kids turn out bad, but you know what? I'm gonna give this my all and I'm cautiously optimistic about how this is gonna go. And it's the same thing with Bitcoin, it's the same thing with anything that's good in life, that's worth having, starts with rational optimism, and then there's a seeding of time, and you harvest what you put into it at a later date. That's basically the formula for everything good in relationships, in, just in life. Life, you know? So, yeah, I'm always, I'm al- I always come from an optimistic place, and that's why I hate it, that's why I hate the Goldbugs so much. Like, I fucking hate the Goldbugs because they're such pessimists. They're always rooting for, they're always rooting for calamity and collapse, and then they're like, they have this crazy idea that they're gonna insert gold into a world that has just, fully demonetized or hyperinflated. That's not gonna happen, okay? Like, you have to build"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "53:12",
      "start": 3191.54,
      "text": "Escape. Like, you know, it's like, as if we're on the Titanic and it's gonna crash, and we can see the iceberg hundreds of miles away, and the rest of us start ripping up benches and creating new lifeboats. You know, that's what Bitcoin is. Like, build the boats, you know, save as many people as you possibly can, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "53:29",
      "start": 3208.68,
      "text": "Right. Yeah. Yeah. And now, I guess, someone like Peter Schiff again. Now, I agree with you, right? But, Peter Schiff might say, \"Look, I've And I can pay you with that, and I can use my centralized, you know, gold, vault. What would you say to Peter Schiff if he said that to you?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "53:51",
      "start": 3230.63,
      "text": "I'd just throw Satoshi's quote back at him where he describes, he basically describes the difference between gold and Bitcoin and says, you know, it has the one magical feature of, it can be sent over a communications channel. It's like, gold is now invalid, okay? Bitcoin has subsumed everything and supplanted everything that gold had going for it, and we've made improvements, not We're all coalescing around this idea that,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "54:17",
      "start": 3257.03,
      "text": "the, the key different-- the, you know, the, the improvements that Bitcoin has made on gold We're not gonna ever go back to gold. It's a crazy idea that we would ever go back to gold. I think gold is just-- gold was the default, right? Gold was like planted here by God or whomever, the universe, and it was just the only scarce, asset that we had across culture, across the globe. We've improved on it through mathematics and cryptography, and we have Bitcoin, which is much better now, you know. And I could send you Bitcoin right now. How am I gonna get a gold bar to you? I gotta like hire a courier down in Australia, wire them the money, and then I, I just trust them that they sent it to you? It's crazy."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "55:02",
      "start": 3302.47,
      "text": "Yeah, you're right. And I think it just, it just brings it back to that idea of, well, fundamentally, it's just politically vulnerable, right? It's just too liable to getting shut down by somebody, where Bitcoin just has that capacity to evade that, at least, you know, to a, to a, a reasonable degree. You know, it's not perfect. Most of the world's,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "55:23",
      "start": 3322.96,
      "text": "yeah, most of the world's gold is here in America. Like most of it, right? And we're holding it on behalf of other countries and things, but the hell if we're ever gonna give it back, no one's ever getting back their gold from America, right? And I think something like eighty percent of the world's gold is centralized by sovereigns, so it's a shit system, you know? And it's not coming back. I'm sorry to break it to anybody who's over forty-five who thinks that's gonna happen. It's not gonna happen, okay?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "55:52",
      "start": 3352.22,
      "text": "Yeah, I, I think so. I think it's more like, maybe, maybe there's some role for it, but I think it'll be a Bitcoin, you know, future denominated, Bitcoin-denominated future. And, and speaking of ages, let's talk a little bit about that. So you were touching on this earlier of how, you know, baby boomers as a, let's call it the It's becoming more like millennials and Gen X, and poor Gen X, I think, you know, they're kind of-- there's just not as many of them as the millennials, so it's kind of millennials are kind of taking the mantle a little bit, to the chagrin of the Gen Xers, I'm sure. But I haven't seen a huge amount of the Zoomers, right? The generation below you and me, I haven't seen them massively get into Bitcoin yet, and I think it may be that a lot of them aren't as cognizant about the, the What's your take there on Zuma adoption of Bitcoin?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "56:46",
      "start": 3406.06,
      "text": "Well, I think we were all, you know, we, we were sort of like marked, we were scarred, Harry Potter style by the, global financial crisis that happened in two thousand eight, because that was at a, That, that happened for a lot of us at a turning. I know for me, I was, right in college, you know, and I found myself instead of going to college, watching CNBC, CNBC all day and, trying to figure out what was going on with the global economy, 'cause I was like, basically, everything that's ever been told to me is a lie, and it all just imploded in front of my eyes. And you combine that with nine eleven, those two things, especially for Americans, are incredibly impactful in that you say, \"It doesn't I don't have any idea what they're doing. I'm-- they're, they're telling me I'm, I'm safe, but it doesn't seem like I'm safe. I'm not safe from, you know, terrorism. I'm not, I'm not safe from economic shocks. The idea of going and getting a job and working for a company for thirty years and then they give you a shitty grandfather clock at the end of it, that seems to be gone. So I think for us, and I, I, I hope the Zoomers get on board with this because if you're The bulk of your net worth is going to be in creating or acquiring digital value, right? So you can acquire digital value through Bitcoin, you can create digital value by doing, you know, online, any, any sort of online commerce, online media, you know, all sorts of things. And you need to get with that soon. Like, I wouldn't give anybody the advice to go into, I don't know, law or finance or even like things like radiology, 'cause they're all gonna be Supplanted by technology at some point, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "58:29",
      "start": 3508.66,
      "text": "Right. I think of it more like th- those roles will still exist, but their role will be really amplified, and it might be that one lawyer might do the role of ten before, because now they can automate a lot of different things. But I think there'll, there'll still be a role for those kinds of professions. But what we see, though, is the government b- creates this permissioning system for those areas, particularly things like lawyers and, you know, doctors. And so on, and it just becomes very captured, and that sort of helps restrict the supply of new people coming in to keep their salaries very high, because, you know, it's hard to become a lawyer or a doctor or whatever."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "59:06",
      "start": 3545.87,
      "text": "Well, it's like, are you full time on this podcast right now?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "59:09",
      "start": 3548.73,
      "text": "Yeah,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "59:09",
      "start": 3549.15,
      "text": "I am. Right. So, I mean, you would just be some guy in Australia who I would have never fucking heard of, fifteen years ago, right? And now you're one of my favorite podcasters, and I'm talking to you on the show, and you You know, those things, try explaining these things to like, I would try and explain this shit to my grandmother or something, you know, and be like, \"What? I have no idea what you do or how you make money.\" My mother-in-law still doesn't know how I make money, she just knows I pay for her rent. It's like, you just have to, you have to be in that zone where you're creating acquir- or acquiring digital value to have any sort of, to get any sort of outsized returns, right? Otherwise, you're gonna get very meager returns, I think, on your time."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "59:54",
      "start": 3594.22,
      "text": "Yeah, and I think it, it almost, it's almost like becoming a very, you need to become one of the best in your niche, but there are, there, there might be very, very little niches, right? Like Bitcoin, like, let's be real, right And, you know, it, it's, i-it despite that, you can still have a career like working in it, right? But you just have to be one of the well-known people in that, whatever, whatever you're doing, whatever it is that you do."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:00:19",
      "start": 3619.8,
      "text": "Well, look at you, you're like the best Bitcoin technical podcast in the world. Like, if you, you know, if you told that to somebody who's in their sixties, they'd be like, \"What? How does that make any sense? I don't know what you're-- what words are you using?\""
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:00:35",
      "start": 3635.33,
      "text": "But look, some things are just getting reinvented like the old, right? Like maybe podcasts are just like the new talk show radio or to-- like radio hosting, right? It's just a new form of it."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:00:43",
      "start": 3643.61,
      "text": "Yeah. You know, it's interesting, I do think about the Zoomers often, and I think that they actually have a disservice, because, you know, as millennials, we got to see the analog world transition to digital. So it informs us of how very new all this stuff is, and I, I think like Zoomers are getting caught up in online clout and Getting their gratification, via online, whereas to me, I still kind of look at, on, everything that happens online is sort of a goof, sort of a game. Like, if they keep deleting my Twitter account, I'm like, okay, whatever, I don't care. I have a real life outside of Twitter, you know? Whereas I think sometimes, Zoomers and below, they're like, \"This is my life, this is everything, you know? Twitter is all I have, my Instagram is all I have.\" I saw a girl who was crying on Instagram the And and I think, so that's something that's coming, too, is that, you know, in the, in the next twenty years or so, I think that we're going to own our data and have more control of it. So like, if you built your following in one area, you could move it and, you know, go to a new website and it's not, you're not captured. Like, we have online capture right now, right? So like, we're doing, we're doing things in cyberspace, but, you know, if Twitter decides to shut you Right? So it's- Absolutely."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:02:03",
      "start": 3723.37,
      "text": "Yeah."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:02:03",
      "start": 3723.81,
      "text": "Yeah, I see, I see that, like, go on. No, no, go, no, go ahead. I'm just saying we're facing these central oligopolies all over the place."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:02:11",
      "start": 3731.01,
      "text": "What we've seen is an unnatural centralization into these, you know, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and then they become the new gatekeepers and they become the new, way through which the government exercises control, right? So you see what's happening with YouTube now, they're slowly putting in more and more regulations, they're putting in all this And whatever, and, you know, and then it's just becoming more and more hard for them to actually censor, like, to stop out like the actual things that need to get censored out, while still letting legitimate people, produce material. And then it just becomes this kind of bureaucratic, you know, nightmare. but hopefully we do see like, you know, things like, what's it called? That, that Twitter, that Twitter idea of having like an open source thing of which Twitter is like one client for the open source idea, things like that. Or like Erbit, how do you feel about, how do you feel about Erbit? I'm still not convinced on it being, on, on whether it's a shitcoin or not, man. I, I can't listen to that episode, but I was like, I don't know, I'm still, I'll be honest, I'm not really convinced on it yet. maybe I just need to kinda hear the argument put better, but, that's my take on it. That's my take on it."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:03:25",
      "start": 3805.28,
      "text": "Are you open, are you open to the idea that there could be other scarce, digital resources?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:03:32",
      "start": 3812.98,
      "text": "maybe. I don't know. I'm, I'm not as clear on that. Maybe I'm not as clear on that. Yeah."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:03:38",
      "start": 3818.26,
      "text": "Maybe not that currently exist, because I don't, I don't see any that currently exist either. But maybe that there could be some that, that will exist in the future."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:03:47",
      "start": 3827.08,
      "text": "Maybe, maybe."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:03:48",
      "start": 3828.11,
      "text": "I, I, I don't know. See, I, this is where I always, I hate when people label maximalists as like groupthinkers, you know? I, No offense, Stefan, but I don't care how you think, right? I think we're all coalescing on the same description of reality. Is, is what it is. It's not a prescriptive ideology. I'm not like going to some central authority and, and being like, \"How should I think?\" And they're like, \"You should think that BSV is the real Bitcoin.\" No, no, I don't do that. I think for myself, and then I come up with what's around me. And I'm, I'm, I'm open to not being a maximal At the, at the current moment, man, what else is there? It's just Bitcoin, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:04:31",
      "start": 3871.97,
      "text": "Right. I, I say it like, we've gotta get the money right first, and then other things might follow. And what we've seen is a kind of overreach, if anything, like they've, they've been trying to do all these crazy ideas of- You know, whatever, call, you know, finance on top of this other shitcoin, rather than like establishing Bitcoin as the money first and then building other things like out on top of that. And that is, in my mind, what makes the most sense to me, and that's why I think of it almost, it's just an analog of malinvestment, right? So all these people, all these entrepreneurs had free or cheap access, like unnaturally cheap access to capital that enabled them to go and start their own shitcoins that would- Maybe that idea might work, but it's just too early for that idea, and you're not building it on top of the actual money that we think is the long-term sustainable one. So that's kind of how I'm thinking of it."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:05:24",
      "start": 3924.01,
      "text": "Let me give you, let me give you a quick story. I was at a conference in LA with, that guy Jimmy Nguyen was running it. You know that guy who's Craig's right-hand man?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:05:31",
      "start": 3931.8,
      "text": "Jimmy"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:05:32",
      "start": 3932.1,
      "text": "Nguyen or Jimmy Nguyen or whatever, yeah, whatever you, whatever you call his, whatever his name is. He's a, he's But, you know, they had a, they had a panel on, token economics, and this was back in like early '16, I think. And I didn't understand that these people didn't see reality the same way I saw reality, and that they were colluding with each other at this little special conference. I just sort of wandered in there. It was like a legal conference that I had gone to with my, father, right? 'Cause he was a lawyer. But when I, when I wandered in, I asked the guy a question about Bitcoin, he was like, I, I was just thinking in my head, I was like, \"No, it's not. Fuck you, I'm smarter than you are. Like, you don't know what's happening here, you know?\" He said Bitcoin was over when Bitcoin was worth five hundred dollars or something, and then it went to twenty thousand dollars, but I didn't understand that they were all colluding, you know? And when I, when I saw that play out in Ethereum and the ICOs that happened afterward, in retrospect, it all made so much sense, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:06:32",
      "start": 3992.56,
      "text": "Yeah, for sure, for sure. And look, I, they've all got an incentive to talk down, you know, Bitcoin and make their own thing and say, \"Oh, that, that's the problem with this. Now, here's my solution, da da da.\" But, no, they're, they're all"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:06:46",
      "start": 4006.47,
      "text": "pro BTC, Stephan. They're, they're very pro BTC. That's right. That's right. Because we all know, you listen, I'm pro BTC, in the sense that I wake up every day and I shit all over Bitcoin, say every, lie imaginable to try and displace it so that my coin can take prominence. That, that just obviously, that means I'm pro BTC, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:07:08",
      "start": 4028.85,
      "text": "That's right. And, and I think we can, we can, benefit at least, or we can take solace in the fact that now they're at least trying to pass themselves off as Bitcoiners, right? Because they've realized now that Want to be seen as a Bitcoiner, so they can't just like completely shit on it. So I, I think that there's something there."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:07:29",
      "start": 4049.18,
      "text": "Isn't it funny that we just never let them get away with it, and we, we never will? It's like that blog was up for like ten minutes before we were like, \"This is bullshit. This is total bullshit.\""
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:07:39",
      "start": 4059.28,
      "text": "Absolutely. Well, yeah, and I think we've gotta, you know, for me, I, I do- I do wonder about the amount of time we spend calling out stuff out, and, you know, maybe it's like white blood cells going over, like, going to the audio immune response and whatever. Like, obviously in that case it was, you know, kind of justified, right? Yeah. but, you know, we've also got to turn our eye to- Building and writing documentation and, you know, teaching newbies and, and trying to expand our audiences in ways that are helping new people come down the pathway, you know, and I think that's, that's a focus as well that we've all got to have. Like, I'm trying to think about ways to try and get- articles published in more mainstream, normie, media. just thinking of ways to try and access those people because, you know, I think this next bull run, it's, you know, it's coming, and I would rather people sort of come down the pathway of like finding the legit Bitcoiners as opposed to getting trapped again into, you know, some pro BTC stuff, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:08:43",
      "start": 4123.09,
      "text": "Man, it's just so hard because you have to overcome that, You know, Stephan, in, in a very real way, most people are just not curious about the world. They just aren't. they just accept what's being told to them. And overcoming that lack of curio- I mean, lack of curiosity is fatal, you know? I wouldn't know about Bitcoin or be here or, you know, I wouldn't be a millionaire, if I wasn't curious, like just endlessly curious. But when I talk to most people, they're just like, \"Huh? What? What are you talking about? Who cares? Shut up.\""
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:09:17",
      "start": 4157.23,
      "text": "Yeah, and I, I sometimes I get despondent thinking about it because I do, I really do want people to care about themselves, and I, I want them to. it's super valid what you're talking about and what we're all trying to do, and I agree with you, maybe we should take a little more of our passive time or our active time that we have from our passive investment and apply it to, things that are gonna reach the right people, right? Instead of yelling at Bellagio all day long."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:09:43",
      "start": 4183.5,
      "text": "Yeah, right. a, a part of it is, how do you shock someone out of the, the treadmill of life that they're on, right? And kind of get them to, you know, wake up a bit. And I guess that's the challenge for all of us. So we just gotta find ways to do that."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:09:57",
      "start": 4197.63,
      "text": "Number go up definitely shocks you out of your complacency, 'cause you're like, \"Oh, shit, my friend told me about that when"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:10:06",
      "start": 4206.96,
      "text": "Or whatever it's gonna be, you know? So that's a good, that's a good shockwave."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:10:11",
      "start": 4211.92,
      "text": "Yeah. Have you had people who-- Now, this is something I sense is there are some of my friends from, you know, even in 2013 and so on, who might be too proud to admit that, \"Oh, hey, you told me about this,\" you know, they-- And sometimes when you hang out with them, there's sort of that unseen or unmentioned aspect of, \"Yeah, you told me about this thing,\" and now they don't, almost don They would have to admit that they were wrong. Do you get that? Yeah, you know what?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:10:40",
      "start": 4240.86,
      "text": "But they only-- that, that's something they have to overcome in themselves, because that only hurts them. It does nothing to you. You're gonna, you're gonna continue to prosper, right? So- yeah, I, I, I totally feel what you're saying, and I have that with friends, where it's like, you know, I, I have a buddy who's just like a bartender, and he doesn't make a lot of money, and he has child support payments, his, his life isn't great. And back in twenty fifteen, I told him, I said, \"Listen, give me-- What's your rent?\" He said it was eight hundred dollars. I said, \"Listen, give me one month's rent, okay? And I will invest it for you"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:11:22",
      "start": 4282.96,
      "text": "This could set you up for life, and he was like, \"Nah. \" It's like, okay, now we're done. I don't know what else to say to you, you know?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:11:31",
      "start": 4291.43,
      "text": "Well, look, you gotta save who you can, and I guess part of it is you gotta save the people who you most want to be the new Bitcoin wealthy, right? Like as someone like Trace might say, he might say something like, \"I want the more Austrian libertarian type people to have wealth in the new, you know, if we're all right about this, right? Assuming"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:11:53",
      "start": 4313.12,
      "text": "Now that the marginal utility of each additional sat I stack is going down, doesn't mean I don't stack sats, but I do put away some for, you know, family, close friends, and I'm probably gonna surprise them with it, you know? My daughters are here. I'm probably gonna surprise them with it, in the future, you know. But I have, I have about five Bitcoin that are set aside for other people. And out of my six point one five, that's very generous, Stephan."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:12:21",
      "start": 4341.19,
      "text": "That's right. You're too kind, too kind, American HODLer."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:12:26",
      "start": 4346.53,
      "text": "Yeah, it's, man, it's so tricky, but, you know, I, I think it plays out in an inevitable sort of way. And I, do I think everybody who could be saved is gonna be saved? No. But if People when we get Bitcoin in the hands of younger people, like the Zoomers, although it's very hard 'cause, you know, nobody thinks about money when they're young, right? I was, but not a lot of people are thinking about building wealth when they're nineteen or twenty. So it's, it's a tough pitch all over."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:12:55",
      "start": 4375.63,
      "text": "Well, there you go. look, I think, that, that, that's probably gonna do it for this one. but, have you got any closing thoughts for the listeners? Just stack"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:13:04",
      "start": 4384.02,
      "text": "sats and hoddle. Stay humble or not, that's your choice. You don't have to stay"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:13:07",
      "start": 4387.92,
      "text": "humble. Hah"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "american_hodl",
      "time": "01:13:22",
      "start": 4402.17,
      "text": "The Stephan Livera Show, 'cause it's the shit."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:13:25",
      "start": 4405.92,
      "text": "Thank you very much. You're too kind. Thanks for joining me. Thanks, brother. Don't forget to subscribe to the show at stephanlivera dot com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels."
    }
  ]
}