{ "episodeId": "SLP144", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "steve_lee": { "name": "Steve Lee", "role": "guest", "tag": "STEVE" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.21, "text": "Hi, you're listening to the Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today for episode one hundred and forty-four, my guest is Steve Lee from Square Crypto. This podcast is brought to you by Kraken, one of the world's leading Bitcoin exchanges at kraken dot com. They're known for a strong focus on security, they're one of the longest standing Bitcoin exchanges in the space, they can support Consistently rated the best, they offer a high quality platform with high trading volume and low fees, with no minimum or hidden fees. 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With GiveBitcoin, you can buy Bitcoin for friends and family with just their email address, and the twist is that gift is This time delayed with a regulated US custodian for one year, and during that year, GiveBitcoin is delivering monthly lessons to speed them through that learning curve. GiveBitcoin has input from many well-known Bitcoiners. I'm also an advisor with a small equity stake assisting with the curriculum and to keep an eye out. So Swan is also looking to have some other broader products such as SaveBitcoin, which allow you to stack SATs as well. So go and check them out. Start with GiveBitcoin dot io. Have you backed up? Your Bitcoin seed, go and look into CipherSafe, CipherSafe dot io. They're producing the CipherWheel product, and this is a way to backup your bip39 seed, like your ledger and your Trezor and your coldcard, and you can back that up in a way that's fireproof, waterproof, rustproof, petproof, and tamper evident. The CipherWheel comes in a wheel shape, it masks the words of your seed unless you open the padlock tamper evident seal, so you know it's been opened. CipherSafe have also upgraded the Stainless steel alloy, and the product scored an A versus heat and crushing in some recent testing by Jameson Lop. So make sure you or your loved ones have access to your bitcoins if an accident occurs. Orders will be going out in early February, so go and order yours at CipherSafe dot io. Here's the interview with Steve. Steve, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "03:50", "start": 229.7, "text": "Thank you so much for having me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:52", "start": 232.2, "text": "Steve, we've been trying to make this happen for a while, but, I've been very excited about what's happening with, Square Crypto, and actually I was following some of your work before you actually got involved with Square Crypto as well, so, I, I know you were kind of like a product manager for Bitcoin, but let's, let's start with the what you were doing before all this Bitcoin stuff." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "04:14", "start": 253.88, "text": "Sure, I'll give a little bit of background on myself. I grew up in a small town in Iowa, so I'm from the Midwest in the United States. And, as a kid, I programmed, Apple computers and, Commodore computers. eventually went to undergrad and studied computer science and computer engineering, and then throughout my twenties, I, I worked for, a company that was working on Java. It was right when Java, the Java language was introduced by Sun, Microsystems, and I built A real time Java virtual machine for embedded systems. I eventually made my way out to the Bay Area in San Francisco and got my MBA at UC Berkeley, and then spent a, almost a decade at Google. And at Google, I was a product manager, so I didn't do, coding there. And I think the, the most relevant lesson I learned at Google that, applies to Bitcoin is decentralized leadership. as a PM at Google, you work with many, many engineers all over the world, you work with people in a variety of different functions, including legal and marketing and business, and you're not there You're not their manager or their boss, so you don't, you're not in a position of authority, but you are responsible for moving the ball forward and making progress and getting everyone, on the same page. And, I'll, I'll speak a little bit more to that, as part of my Bitcoin journey, and, and how I think it can apply to, to Bitcoin. yeah, so as far as my, my Bitcoin journey, I, I read the white paper in two thousand and thirteen, during that hype cycle, that's when I was, you know, gainfully employed and focused on Google and other things in life at that point. So it wasn't until three years ago, right at the beginning of 2017, actually before the market really took off and got crazy, I stumbled upon Ethereum and, And I actually got really excited about the Ethereum, messaging at the time. and I wa-- you know, I had no job, so I had all, all the time in the world to, to study this stuff. So I spent, spent the next couple of months Really diving into cryptocurrency and blockchain and, everything, and, by June of two thousand and seventeen, I'd really come full circle back to Bitcoin and gained a much greater appreciation for what Bitcoin is, what it can become, the culture of Bitcoin, and, you know, it's like many people studied the history of money, and even though I have an MBA, like I didn't, I didn't know anything about Austrian economics or many of the things I've learned since, learning more about Bitcoin. So by the end of two thousand 2017, I, I decided I, I wanna, I, I wanna, I don't wanna just like sit on the, on my couch and learn about Bitcoin, I'd like to actually contribute to Bitcoin. So while I could code, for, on, for, for Bitcoin, I don't think that would really move the needle much, where I saw an opportunity is, to contribute to open source in non-coding ways, and I'm calling it a Bitcoin PM. And, and by that I don't mean defining a product roadmap for Bitcoin, I mean more of a, more decentralized leadership, like connecting the right people and coordinating folks on various focus, you know, focus areas. And so I, I, I thought the, you know, I, I didn't work for an organization, or so I figured the, the best way to, get involved is just start meeting people and find ways I could contribute. And I, I found the Bitcoin community incredibly welcoming and inviting and helpful. John Newbery Gary from Jingo Labs is one of the first people I met, and, he told me about he was gonna create this thing called Bitcoin Optech, it's about two years ago, and it sounded like exactly the kind of thing that I'd wanna help and contribute on, so, from, from the beginning I, I helped John, and I, I just sought ways I could help, so I, business development was an area that Was needed initially with Object, 'cause we needed to reach out to c-companies to become members and get engaged. So I put on my BD hat and reached out to dozens of different companies in the space. I also immersed myself in the Bitcoin core project, and I've done a num- tried to do a num- number of different things. Fast forward to a year ago, I was chatting with the folks at Chaincode, and they, and, and I, I had an interest in creating something similar to Chaincode, but independent from Chaincode. And I was in the middle of pitching this to different funders, I was calling it Bitcoin Works. and then in March of last year, Jack Dorsey tweeted out about Square Crypto, and it hap-- his description in the tweets mirrored what I was imagining with Bitcoin Works, in an uncanny fashion. It was very, very similar with the design focus and PM and, and developers. so then I, and wound up chatting with, with Square and, and started this past summer." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:17", "start": 557.42, "text": "Right. And I think many people who aren't as into the open source ethos, they might think, \"Well, hang on...\" On Square is like funding a competitor kind of thing, or Square is like kind of funding this, this sort of open source arm that's not necessarily like directly monetizable. can you elaborate a little bit on, you know, what's the thinking behind that? And obviously we're supportive of that, but what's some of the thinking around that?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "09:46", "start": 586.02, "text": "Yeah, I think, I think Square's view is that they're, they're taking a long term view to cryptocurrency and, and are really believers in, in Bitcoin long term. So I really like, and, and, and what one thing that drew me to joining Square is, is that just the attitude and approach of being very hands off. So Square's commercial interests and Square corporate has no role in terms of setting the priorities of Square Crypto. Jack has said that really our, our, our boss is the Bitcoin community. So, so you're, you're, you're, you're my boss, Stefan. We," }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "10:28", "start": 628.32, "text": "but, you know, we very much wanna do what is right for, open source Bitcoin and the, in the Bitcoin community. And I think the, the strategy for Square is that if Bitcoin can become a widely used global currency, lots of business opportunities opportunities arise and by being early and learning about Bitcoin, you know, years before that might occur, Square will be well positioned as an organization to capitalize, and, and fortunately, Jack understands that the best way to a-approach Bitcoin is, is through open source" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:08", "start": 668.18, "text": "Excellent. And one thing that really sticks out to me from what you were just saying there is like this concept from, Terrence Kearney, The Economic Laws of Scientific Research, and one point that he's making in that book is like this idea that by contributing into this, this commons, you actually have more skilled engineers and people who know the space well, and that you need to stay current with it. And I think this kind of mirrors that kind of thought of, well, you've got people who are really at the coal face and they're Building some of this new stuff, and they're gonna be the most familiar with it, and they're gonna be so far ahead of the game in terms of other, companies and other people, just because, you know, you're the ones, you know, actually building it. so let's talk a little bit about the team at Square Crypto, what's it made up of? it's mostly developers, and, and I understand there was also like a focus on user experience as well." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "12:00", "start": 719.97, "text": "that's right. The, our expectation for the s-scope of our contribution will" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "12:08", "start": 727.9, "text": "A specific project that we're gonna talk more about later, and we're still looking for a designer to join, but definitely we see an opportunity to move the needle on Bitcoin design, I'll continue, my, myself, I'll continue to, to contribute in a PM way to, for, for Bitcoin, and we also have development grants for, or, or grants for not only development, but also design and PM, and, and I think, you know, we'll speak a little bit more to, to that in detail. And I, I'd also like to say that our, our scope is really focused on non-custodial usage of Bitcoin as well, and, and the reason why we just feel it's super important for the long-term success of Bitcoin that users control their private keys or at least have a credible opportunity to, and we feel like it's an under-invested area. And if the user experience gap widens too much between custodial and non-custodial uses of Bitcoin, then even if Bitcoin becomes wildly successful and popular, with users, if the vast majority of users are custodial, that's kind of an unhealthy state for Bitcoin to be in." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:21", "start": 801.37, "text": "Right, yeah, I'm absolutely on the same page with you there. I'm all about, you know, encouraging self-custody. One question I've seen from the, you know, online and stuff, people have said, \"Oh, why is it Square Crypto?\" So we're not Square Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "13:34", "start": 814.18, "text": "Right. and I asked the same question as well when I was, interviewing. but I mean, first of all, I'll just say that we're, we're all in on, on Bitcoin. we feel it by far and away gives the best chance of creating a, a new type of money for the world, one that, you know, has a limited supply, is a money without masters, and is open to anyone. And we, we just think that Bitcoin is the right, project to bet on so why is it named Square Crypto though and not Square Bitcoin? there, first of all, there's enough, plenty of work for us to do just focusing on Bitcoin, but that said, we didn't want the organization's name to box us in or limit us, from at least monitoring emerging technologies that may complement Bitcoin and help fulfill that, that mission. but all of our actions point towards a Bitcoin focus. everyone that's been hired focuses on Bitcoin, the project we just announced is focused on Bitcoin, and all of our grants are focused on Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:34", "start": 873.5, "text": "Awesome. so let's talk a little bit then about your team, like the direct team of developers working with Square Crypto. So, I mean, you've got Matt Corella, who's, you know, very highly respected, very well known. can you tell us a little bit about what, what some of their main skill sets or areas are that they're working in from a Bitcoin and potentially Lightning point of view?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "14:54", "start": 894.39, "text": "Yeah, I'm, I'm thrilled with our team. I think we have a fantastic team. first of all, they're just really wonderful people to work with Yeah, let's start off with Matt. I mean, probably most of your listeners are familiar with Matt Carallo. he's, has a long history of contributions for Bitcoin and, and he's a, you know, presence in the space. And he's just, he's a great anchor for our team. we set out to, to find someone who would be a good anchor that has the credibility and history, because we also wanted to hire people onto the team who weren't currently, open source Bitcoin contributors, because we wanted to, to grow the, the Open source Bitcoin developer. So Matt provides us that anchor. Val is on our team as well, she's super strong programmer and brings, you know, a lot of technical knowledge of Lightning to the team, and a desire to work on protocol development as well. Arik is on the team too. He has experience building crypto wallets, both at BitGo. He's at BitGo for three years, and, he spent a year at Facebook Libra working on crypto wallets too. but rest assured, Arik is a, a Bitcoiner at heart, and, and he really has a strong vision based on that wallet experience, on how the L-LDK should be designed and, and be Best built out for, for wallet developers. Jeff is on our team, he, he came from Google, he's the most experienced developer on our team, over ten years experience at, at, at Google. and he just, he brings a level of professionalism and just a really wonderful attitude, to, to things that maybe not all developers think are sexy, but like testing and development tools and process and, he's already making strides at building relationships with Bitcoin core developers. Developers, and so, so I, I think he's gonna add a lot of value not only to the LDK, but, Bitcoin Core as well. W-which I, so I should say that th-those four developers and myself, will focus on the LDK. We wanted to pick one, a single project to focus on, focus on. but each individual has freedom to work on indipen-independent projects as well. So Jeff's already expressed a desire to, to contribute to Core, and he's already been contributing to Core, so that, you He'll continue to do that. And, you know, Matt, Matt's done recent work on like Stratum v2 for mining and some, alternative networks, work, and, you know, he's always coming up with something new to work on. And I'll, like for myself, I'll continue to contribute to, to Bitcoin Optech." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:32", "start": 1051.77, "text": "Oh, okay, yeah, so you're actually still doing Optech stuff as well?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "17:34", "start": 1054.21, "text": "Yeah, actually, in, interestingly, during my interview process with Square, each person that interviewed me explicitly called out saying that they wanted me to continue that work. So it's just been really great support from Square, embracing, you know, giving us freedom and, and allowing us to, to, you know, help out where we think is needed in the, in the community." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:56", "start": 1076.02, "text": "Right, So that, that brings that question of where do you put your focus, right? And, potentially it can be a little bit like, if you're trying to get a certain task done, then it might feel a bit like you're herding cats because everyone's off doing their own thing. But then at the same time, you might have a certain focus that you want, people to come towards, and then how do you, how do you pick that focus as well?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "18:20", "start": 1099.96, "text": "Yeah, and, and- Yeah, at the start we, you know, it wasn't clear, should we pick a single project or work on all kinds of projects? And, you know, the way Chaincode organizes themselves is each, each developer i-is very independent and they can choose what they wanna work on. And they're obviously a, a proven model, and Chaincode's been a, a great contributor to, to Bitcoin. but we, we thought there, there's a good opportunity to, gain some of the benefits of, a focused team and collaborating on a single project, yet Open source focus. So we decided to pick one project. our criteria for that project, first, will the project have an outsized impact on Bitcoin and, and particularly non-custodial Bitcoin? second criteria, is the project meeting an underfunded need of the ecosystem that doesn't have a clear business model? and then the third criteria, can this become a self-sustaining open source project that will attract developers worldwide? so with, with those criteria, we, we evaluated lots of different projects. We looked at, some privacy projects, including coinjoin techniques like Snicker, and, w-we, we definitely felt like doing a development kit probably would be where we'd focus. We looked at a variety of different approaches to developer kits, but We finally landed on the LDK, the Lightning Development Kit, and, we feel like, since we aren't, we're, you know, we're not a business, we're not trying to generate revenue or have customers, so we don't really wanna build an end-user product or application, and we feel like we'll have a way bigger impact with our small team by building a dev kit that can be used by hundreds of different application and wallet developers. We, we feel like focusing on Lightning Network allows us to have broad impact across non-custodial usage and user experience, scaling, privacy, security, all these like pillars that need of Bitcoin that, that each need significant improvement if Bitcoin's gonna be realized as a widely used currency." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:31", "start": 1231.34, "text": "So would you mind just outlining for the listeners who maybe they're not software developers, they're not into, as into the IT aspects of it, what is a development kit?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "20:41", "start": 1240.57, "text": "Yeah. So, you know, imagine like your, the iPhone you use or, or your Android phone, you have lots of different apps on that phone, and those apps, when they're developed, they, they use functionality that Apple or Google provides in the underlying operating system, To, you know, to be able to draw on the screen and accept input and, and, et cetera. And so, I mean, that's what a development kit is. the Lightning development kit is intended to be an, an implementation of the Lightning protocol, for, existing Bitcoin wallets, future Bitcoin wallets, and other applications that might want to enable, Lightning payment, you know, sending and receiving Bitcoin using the Lightning network." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:29", "start": 1288.76, "text": "Okay, gotcha. And so, probably most of the listeners are familiar with this idea that there are, well, probably three main implementations of Lightning today. So there's, you know, there's LND by Lightning Labs, there's the C-Lightning and the Blockstream guys, and then there's the async version, and then there's also Electrum who are doing a version, I think Neutro have one. Would the LDK, as I understand, it's sort of built mainly off Rust Lightning. So can you tell us a little bit about Visions of Lightning Network, if you will, or implementations of Lightning Network, more accurately." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "22:03", "start": 1323.44, "text": "Yeah, certainly. 'cause again, just to reiterate, you know, we're, we're not a business and we're not looking to, to compete with anything. We, we wanted to find gaps in the ecosystem where we could uniquely contribute. and we, we spent, one-- I mean, you, you mentioned at the beginning of the show you've been, trying to get me on for a while. One reason it took so long is we, we did spend Just listening to them and understanding their needs and the common theme we were hearing is a desire to, f-from wallets that don't yet have Lightning, a desire to add Lightning, and, and, even from Lightning wallets, you know, the, just the need to be able to customize and, and they needed flexibility in, Lightning. That's the focus with, LDK, and we chose, we chose Rust, Lightning, and Rust, you know, very specifically for, for a number of different reasons, Let me start with Rust, the language. So it's one of the safest languages to build something as important as Lightning in, It's also, the, the wallet ecosystem is, you know, different developers use lots of different languages, be it from React Native to Swift to Java to Python, many, many different languages are used. So if you're going to build a library that you hope is used by as many wallets as possible, you need to make it super easy for those developers to integrate that. library into their, into their application because they might not be set up to use the, the language you chose or that environment. Rust is a good choice because it doesn't have a garbage collector and it doesn't have a lot of runtime overhead that other languages have. so that, that makes it easier to integrate, in, in technical terms, link, a Rust library with, with an existing application. It also," }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "24:12", "start": 1451.5, "text": "the, then let me pivot a little bit into the Rust Lightning project, which has existed for over a year and a half. it turns out Matt Corallo started this project, so he just started it on his own, it's sort of from the community for the community. there's no like business behind it or anything like that, and he's been working on it for a year and a half in his, you know, in part of his time, other developers like Antoine Riard contribute to it. It as well. it's architected differently, it's, it was made to be, customized. So it, it, it, Matt's idea with it was, it, existing Bitcoin wallets, they wanna be able to integrate Lightning without requiring their users to create another wallet. They wanna reuse their existing key store and wallet. And so Rust Lightning, is architected in a way that allows that type of, of flexibility." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:04", "start": 1504.23, "text": "Right. and so- So if a developer wants to use the LDK, will they need to be a Rust expert or is it more like it's been built in Rust, but then that developer doesn't actually have to be a Rust, you know, expert to use it?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "25:20", "start": 1519.76, "text": "Yeah, the, the expectation is, we, we want anyone using the LDK to, to not have to code in Rust or, or be able-- or need to modify Rust Lightning or the LDK at all, and we think we can achieve that because of the architecture structure of, of, of Rust Lightning being one that allows a developer to plug in their own, for example, their own way to store private keys. they can plug in their own networking stack, they can plug in their own, data store for backups for Lightning. all of these different pieces of Lightning can be, are, are pluggable on, On the LDK, and, be-because of that, we don't anticipate that developers will need to, to know Rust or, or, or learn Rust, which, which is important because that's another thing we heard from wallet developers, is that, you know, they, they have their favorite language and their own knowledge base, and they don't wanna have to learn, learn another language. One, one more thing I'd, tech-technical thing I'd like to point out about, the Rust Lightning design is that it doesn't, run in, in its own process. It doesn't start any threads. It doesn't make any system calls like I/O, and that makes it much easier to integrate into, to different environments like on iOS and potentially HSMs and secure elements and other, you know, un-unique configurations that, that, have a variety of different use cases, maybe, maybe even like in a, in a web browser, which has certain restrictions on Tztpip networking connections." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:08", "start": 1627.79, "text": "Okay. And so then, the hope then is that wallet developers out there who already have an existing Bitcoin wallet can use the LDK to now include Lightning into that wallet in a way that's a little bit easier and requires less, work from them. would that be, I guess, so some wallets are already like Lightning native, right? They're just only Lightning, so things like, Breeze Wallet, for example, or, Phoenix is only Lightning, and then you've got others like, for example, Electrum, who are along, like, a, an institution in this space, and they're building in their own version of Lightning, How are you thinking about that? Is it mostly just around, finding or creating a product more, or a, a, a tool, a toolkit for, Bitcoin wallets to in-integrate Lightning, do you have any examples in mind?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "28:05", "start": 1684.6, "text": "Yeah, a, a primary use case is, imagine you're an existing Bitcoin wallet that is interested in integrating Lightning. you already have your users storing their private keys with a certain design, and, it would be suboptimal to make your customers create a separate wallet and like create a separate master private key just to, to have a- Lightning wallet and fund those Lightning channels. So what you really want is to be able to reuse the same wallet, so the user just has a single, a single wallet and a single private key that they need to store. so the way Rust Lightning's been designed is it, it can accommodate that because the existing Bitcoin wallet can plug in its existing key store, and yet still leverage the Lightning implementation in Rust Lightning. So you, you mentioned Electrum, I actually think Electrum is a great example of something that, could have benefited from LDK. of course, the timing didn't work out because, Rust Lightning didn't exist or was very immature at the time that Electrum decided to, to build their own implementation. but the hope would be, I, I think a, a bad state for the industry would be if there are dozens of different wallets, m- and hundreds of different applications, and each one has to build out their own Lightning implementation. That's not a, that's not a good state to be in. So, you know, the future Electrum wallet examples would be where the LDK could, could help out a wallet like that. another, and, and just another example use case, is if the user wants to access their wallet across multiple devices, and for anyone that's used the, Green Wallet from Blockstream, might be familiar with their design in which, you know, they have an Android app and iPhone app as well as desktop. And you can access your Green Wallet from any of those devices, and it's the same, the same wallet. And they, they achieve that because your private key is encrypted and stored in the cloud, And with the LDK, it can enable those types of configurations where your keys and your lightning state backup can be stored in a ver-- you know, in, in a single computer, lots of different configurations, but it should support, you know, multiple devices and multiple applications all accessing that same wallet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:39", "start": 1838.89, "text": "Also, I noticed that there are some wallets that already package in, say, LND, so examples would be Breeze or Zap, and so- Would this LDK just be like another option of how they could package in Lightning?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "30:54", "start": 1854.45, "text": "that's right. So that, that would be, it'd be another option as a, for them to use. I think in speaking with a lot of wallet developers, there, there's- Had, they've had to do quite a bit of customization to get the, the user experience they're really looking for. and in certain cases, they, they wind up, modifying the code bases of Lightning implementations and having to maintain that fork. And so we would hope that in cases of that, where there's that type of customization, that, they could use LDK and not have to, again, you know, getting back to, do they have to know Rust to modify the code? Hopefully they don't need to modify that code mode that they're able to achieve the customization they, they desire just using the standard API of the LDK." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:42", "start": 1901.67, "text": "Gotcha. yeah, and I'm just thinking now, another example that I know of, Dropbit, right? So I was fooling around with Dropbit and I noticed that when you changed over to Lightning, you had to have like a separate seed as well. So I think that's sort of coming back to that same point there of, it would be nice to have users just use the one seed and it's just everything there. One other thing I was keen to ask around was, are there-- well, I'm sure there are. What other things, other than wallets, might benefit, benefit from the LDK? Like at, at a more Lapps level, are there, benefits there for the developers?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "32:16", "start": 1935.65, "text": "I mean, I think initially it'll largely be wallets, but certainly down the road, we're imagining other applications and services using this as well. I mean, if depending on how, how far out you wanna talk and how big you wanna, imagine, Bitcoin becoming successful. But, you can imagine major internet services wanting to incorporate sending and receiving Bitcoin payments, and if they do, In order to scale, they'll almost certainly be using, Lightning and not, doing on-chain. And so they wanna integrate Lightning, they'll need to evaluate different, different ways to, achieve that. And if they have a lot of customization they need to do, LDK is something that they should, they should consider. you know, one example might be, BottlePay started up ear-earlier last year, and unfortunately, you know, had to shut down because of- It was custodial, but it, you know, it created a, a nice user experience, and I really liked how they were pushing the envelope there. Maybe a future bottle-pay like experience can be created that's non-custodial, that doesn't- Get shut down due to regulatory concerns, and, and maybe the LDK could help an application like that. I think it's to be explored, but, you know, we're not, we're not quite certain, but we're, we're very interested in discussing with application developers what they have in mind and what they want out of an LDK, and it's, it's super early days for, for what we're building, and we, we're very receptive to, to feedback." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:49", "start": 2029.36, "text": "Gotcha. and also in your article about talking about LDK, you mentioned, Allowing wallets to make user experience, security, and privacy trade-offs such as external transaction signing and customizing their state backup to a cloud service. Can you elaborate a little bit and, potentially on the external transaction signing part?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "34:08", "start": 2047.99, "text": "Sure. I, I've been chatting with a number of developers who have been experimenting with running Lightning or, or part, part of the Lightning stack in an HSM or, or hardware, security module. and, and, and this could be important for a variety of different use cases. But if you, you know, one of the challenges with deploying Lightning is that your keys have to be hot or in a hot wallet, and, and it introduces a whole new security risk to securing your funds. And this is, you know, this impacts merchants, it impacts exchanges, it impacts individual users. So you can imagine if you're a merchant or you're an exchange and you're, you're supporting Lightning, you want to have a secure- secure of implementation as possible. So one way to make those, that hot wallet a little less hot, you know, maybe call it a warm wallet, would be to, store the private keys in an HSM, which allows you to set up policies on how those keys are used, and it, you know, it's not as strong of security as cold storage, but it's much, much more secure than if they're completely available, on a, on a regular- computer. and but, but to, to achieve that, there's quite a bit of, customization that needs to be done with The Lightning implementation and sort of separation of, of, of duties. One example would be, imagine if your e-commerce server, y-you'd, you'd want to separate the, the keys and the Lightning, state management on a separate computer, not on your main e-commerce server, and you might not even want to use a TCP/IP stack for communicating on that separate computer that has the keys, you might just want- A serial cable or the most basic communication possible just to reduce the attack surface on that computer. And the way that Rust Lightning is architected and what LDK can provide is allowing someone implementing that more secure version to plug in their own way to communicate to the Lightning Network, not, not relying on TCP/IP." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:30", "start": 2189.92, "text": "Right, and, to, it reminds me of some of these ideas I've seen, both from the Lightning Labs, LND people, and also from C-Lightning and Blockstream. I've seen this idea of external funding, so this idea of, you know, you can fund your Lightning wallet with, say, a hardware wallet, and then the, when you open that channel, the- Commitment transaction to send it back to your own wallet comes, you know, comes, can s- you know, ideally, it could come back to your own hardware wallet. So this is kind of a related idea that you might use an HSM or some tool to, hold the secret, the private key, in such a way that's at least a little bit more segregated away from the online hot computer that might have malware and so on. a-and you mentioned there around policies, so I guess, the- Policies could be set up in such a way that, you know, you, you would only route certain payments if you have, like, received your upstream amount first and little things like that that Can somewhat segregate out or make it a little bit more secure. Would that be a fair way to summarize it?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "37:42", "start": 2262.25, "text": "Yeah, a couple developers, Dev Random and Ken Cedric, they, they have a document that they've written that's publicly available that has, you know, they have like twenty or so po-policy examples that could be done. So it really hammers home the point of how much more secure. that would be if, if you did use it in HSM. and to your point, Stephane, the, the, yeah, even at the individual level, you know, if you have your, if you have a, let's say you have a treasure or, or ledger and, you have, you have your Bitcoin, you know, maybe you have like ten thousand dollars of, of value of Bitcoin, you definitely don't You know, you wouldn't wanna have all that in a lightning channel or, or exposed in a hot wallet. but again, the, the optimal user experience is you don't wanna have to create two different wallets. So a couple different ways to support that, one would be from- Your hardware wallet, you could extract a child private key that is used to fund a lightning channel, and that key could be stored on your Your laptop or your phone or in the cloud or something like that. what's nice about that model is you can disconnect your hardware wallet and put it in, in a safe or wherever you store it. And yet the only funds at risk from wherever you're storing that extracted key is the amount in that lightning channel, say a couple hundred dollars or something. the other configuration I think is what, you know, what I was talking about earlier, and I think what you were saying, which is actually running lightning, in the hardware wallet itself, in which the no, you know, no keys would be exported then from, from the hardware wallet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:27", "start": 2366.62, "text": "Right. And it just, it's just that question of whether you do that extra transaction to move it into that hardware wallet or you try to- batch or like do it in less transactions, I guess. and yeah, oh, sorry, the other one I was gonna ask you about is, I guess even in that scenario, you'd have to think about like, okay, hardened derivation or not, because I'm giving out a child private key and I don't wanna risk, you know, that aspect of it as well." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "39:50", "start": 2389.5, "text": "I, I think it would need to be hardened, just so you're not exposing, risk to the rest of your wallet. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:56", "start": 2395.74, "text": "gotcha. When we're talking about lightning and user" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:02", "start": 2402.13, "text": "Things that can be done to sort of smooth the user experience, even things like having to, for example, swap in and out of Lightning, like into Bitcoin and vice versa." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "40:14", "start": 2413.58, "text": "I, I don't have any specific insights that, you know, that go beyond what, what, a lot of others that have been working in Lightning for a long time, have, have to say about that, but I, I guess just at a At, at the user level, the design level, I, I think it's clear that long term, the, the notion of lightning and Bitcoin need to sort of, sort of merge, you, you know, users shouldn't have to think about two separate systems. and in fact, I'm working with, a friend who's developing A, educational introductory to Bitcoin, and I was just talking to him today about at what point in time will Lightning mature enough where the way that we're introducing Bitcoin to people is not about waiting for block confirmations, but about sending and receiving Bitcoin using Lightning, but we're not even talking about Lightning, we're just talking about, that's how you use Bitcoin. I think, you know, and I don't know if that's one year from now or two or three or four, but I think that, that'll be a pivotal point which really proves- Out that, okay, light-lightning has matured and it just becomes the, the dominant form of how people are, are using Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:24", "start": 2483.59, "text": "Right. Yeah. And we're starting to see this now with some wallets like Phoenix, which is just like Lightning only or Breeze, but I think before we get to that point, like you're saying, we'd have to-- There's some other points that have to come first, right? Like, invoicing, right? Like, it, it should need to be one QR code instead of having to manually flip. So for example you have to, choose, am I gonna do a Bitcoin payment or a Lightning payment? And for someone who's a bit more of a casual user of Bitcoin, they might not know what you're talking about there, and you've gotta like manually do that. but look, let's, let's talk about BTC Pay Server because I, I'm, I'm a huge fan of BTC Pay, I use it myself, and Square Crypto, you know, a couple months ago made that announcement of supporting, the BTC Pay Server Foundation. Can you" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "42:14", "start": 2533.82, "text": "Level, we Square Crypto has a budget to provide grants, for projects and individuals that are, self-motivated and have a clear plan or, or track record, for improving Bitcoin. the first one we gave out was BTC Pay Server, and it just sort of checked all the boxes, that, that project has a phenomenal track record, you know, starting with Nicolas Dorye, i- it's just amazing what's been accomplished in a couple years by, by him and the rest of the team. and- And the, the mission of BTZ Base Server is just totally aligned with Square Crypto as well, non-custodial usage, it's a really important part of the ecosystem, like as you say, you use it. And, you know, one, one learning, you know, to actually make that grant happen, or so coming into this, I really felt like, you know, the question of like how to, how to fund open source development, I just thought it was like, okay, well, you need to convince companies to actually create a budget to make it happen, and then find people to fund, and then that's it. and those first two are already hard enough, you know, convince a company to create a budget and then find talented people. but a third part that I learned is that just getting the paperwork done can be really challenging, particularly if it's, if it's a company and like, like with Square, it's a publicly traded American company. So just getting the process a-around legal and compliance and regulatory, et cetera, took a long time, but it, it was, you know, that's the kind of lessons that Square wants to learn, and, and I really, am thankful that Square's willing to put in the effort. We had a lot of people help make that happen" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:57", "start": 2637.36, "text": "Yeah, I, there have certainly been, I mean, e-even thinking back to stuff like, in late 2018 with the B and so on, and as I understand, Jukemoe and some of the others were, like, they were well-intentioned about it, and I think there was a certain, There were certain legal components to it of like, it had to be named a certain way, and then that kind of triggered a lot of bitcoiners of like, \"Oh no, is this like another centralization vector?\" I think there's lessons for all of us in terms of how we go forward with, open source, as in making, financial or otherwise contributions to open source projects. are there any learnings there that you could share actually for other listeners who are thinking about if they want to fund a project, how they should think about these things?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "44:43", "start": 2683.13, "text": "yeah, one is it, it's, it's, my intention as part of Square Crypto to, to not only like open source code and design, but open source our playbook. So any kind of process or document or legal documents that we create, we would like to make those open source. And, and it gets back to the, the, the lesson I just learned, which is, it's, it's a lot of overhead for a company to go through all that. So I'm sure that's a barrier to companies funding development. So that's one thing that, that That, that I, I hope to achieve. two is that, I mentioned Bitcoin Works was an organization I was hoping to create. I still think it makes sense for someone to create that, so if anyone wants to create a chain code like, or Square Crypto like organization to contribute to Bitcoin, feel free to reach out to me on Twitter, and I, I'm happy to share my deck and my, and who I was talking to and, and help as, as much as I can, 'cause I, I think the right- way for, for open source development funding and organization is like a ten by ten model, like ten organizations of ten people that are, and each organization is independent, independent funding, independent leadership, as opposed to, other projects might have more of a one by hundred model, where it's just a centralized entity that has a huge budget, and I, I think that's like the antithesis of Bitcoin and how it should be done. I, I think it's way way healthier to have smaller groups that are independent from each other." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:18", "start": 2777.98, "text": "Got it. Right. And, I mean, even today, that-- so as you mentioned, there's Chaincode Labs, there's Blockstream, there is, you know, Square Crypto now, there's MIT DCI, there's, there's a few other kind of individuals, Digital" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "46:31", "start": 2790.62, "text": "Garage as well, and Digital" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:33", "start": 2792.7, "text": "Garage, yep. And some of the, I think even some of the exchanges and some of the miners will fund developers just on a more kind of piece by piece, basis. but yeah, as you to that point where we have more of the, more of these possible avenues that, an open source contributor can have their work funded and, supported. And, while we're speaking of open source contributors, we've also got to talk about Z-man. So for listeners who aren't familiar, Z-man is, an infamous developer and, contributor on the Lightning dev mailing list. So Steve, can you tell us a little bit about that process? You know, who is, or what do you know about Z-man? Or What are all the things you don't know about Z-MAN and, how did you go about this process of, funding Z-MAN?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "47:20", "start": 2839.54, "text": "Yeah, so yeah, Z-MAN SCPXJ, his full name." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "47:26", "start": 2846.06, "text": "I actually started communicating with him over a year ago because he is this prolific contributor on, especially for anyone following the development email lists, And just sort of a fascinating story. So he had mentioned in, in, one of his emails that he, you know, he has like a full-time, a non-bitcoin full-time job, and I think that everyone was like, \"What? How, how can this guy seemingly produce full-time work on Bitcoin and, and do it, moonlighting?\" And then I learned from him that, he's never been paid or funded for his work on Bitcoin, and, and, and, it's just incredible, his contributions so far without getting paid. even before Square Crypto came along, like for this Bitcoin work that I was talking about, I, I was imagining finding a way to fund, Z-man to, so that he could focus full time on it. and it, it, it took a long time, and you can imagine some of the hurdles we had to go through at Square to, to make it happen. It, it was really important to me that we preserved his, Being a pseudonymous and, and, and working the way, the way he works, so, yeah, we're, we're thrilled to support him. He's a significant contributor, contributor, and now he's able to focus full time on Bitcoin, That's fantastic. Looking forward to even, you know, bigger and better things from him. But I mean, for listeners who aren't familiar with him, he, he's pretty unique in that he really gives thoughtful, detailed analysis of the vast majority of proposals that go to the Lightning development list, and he comes up with his own innovations, and, it, it's almost a full-time job, even if you're technical, to just read his Read his writing. so I almost think like, the problem needed to be solved now is like, getting other people who can, who have the time to, to, to follow along his, his, feedback and ideas." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:33", "start": 2973.46, "text": "Right. And, and the thing is, you literally don't know where he is other than a time zone, right?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "49:41", "start": 2981.19, "text": "h-he has stated that he's in, I think it's UTC plus eight, which I think covers something like a third of the world population or something, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:51", "start": 2991.04, "text": "it's good ain't on set then." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "49:52", "start": 2992.46, "text": "It's a large enough community set for him." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:57", "start": 2996.59, "text": "That's awesome. now let's talk a little bit more broadly about user interface and user experience, because that is also a focus for Square Crypto, and I know even for you personally that was a focus even before you got involved with Square Crypto. So from your point of view, where do you see the main hurdles? Is it in a user setting up their wallet, a user protecting their keys? Like, what, what are some of those, common barriers or sticking points that you see?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "50:24", "start": 3024.07, "text": "Yeah, I mean, at a high level, I think there's lots- Of low-hanging fruit with designing Bitcoin, because if you just look at, particularly from an open source perspective or, or ecosystem wide, it's l-- the contr- contribution for the past ten years has largely been developers, and there's been very little professional design. The professional design has come in, you know, through companies, and, you know, we see really nice efforts from Coinbase and Square's Cash App and startups like Breeze and a lot of the other wallets, Green, but- I think one big difference is that if you're working for one company and focused on one product, you're, you're kind of boxed in, and I think there's an opportunity for a de- a designer, someone with design skills, if they're thinking ecosystem wide, thinking of Bitcoin as money, to, to be freed from that box and think about design in, in a very different way. So, I, I think there's a great opportunity here, like specific things that can be improved. I think the- Copy and vocabulary used in Bitcoin today in general is very technical and cypherpunk, which personally appeal-appeals to me, but like isn't super approachable to mainstream users. so the challenge there is like, how can we create, approachable language that, you know, as a, as a design guideline that doesn't lose the spirit of Bitcoin. Like it shouldn't just be exactly what's used for banks and existing money or anything. So like, how do you retain that, the spirit and the ethos of Bitcoin in more approachable language? So I think that's one area. You mentioned private key management, I, I personally think private key management is the number one risk to Bitcoin long term. I, I think if we- Don't improve the user experience tremendously. I mentioned earlier, I think the gap, the user experience of gap will continue to widen, and almost everyone, including merchants, will store their Bitcoin with custodians, and I think it's, Not a good state to be in if there's, be- because I think there'd be a consolidation of custodians, so there'd be like a few custodians globally that each have millions of Bitcoin, and that's a really, really bad state to be in. Especially if the world is actually dependent on Bitcoin as a financial system. So I really, really feel like private key management needs another ten xing or two more ten xings in user experience. It's, it's improved a lot. It's not like, it's not like there's not people working on it. hardware wallets are a huge win. HD wallets, you know, are, have been a huge win. There's lots of things that are improving. Something that excites me, is the, the category of seedless approaches. So like Casa has done it that way. They have their Exodus phone and they have a social key recovery, which, you know, which I think is kind of an interesting novel approach as well. And, I think there's-- I've spoken with a few developers around ideas using a pre-signed transaction as like a recovery mechanism. I think that, something like that has potential, promise because you don't need to guard that nearly as Secretly, because that, that, that, recovery transaction could be set up to, to send, like, let's say you're managing your private keys, you could set up a, a pre-signed transaction that sends them to a custodian just in case you mess up and lose your private keys." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:53", "start": 3232.83, "text": "Sort of like Brian Bishop's vaulting idea with like a safe address kind of thing, and the idea is that if somebody tries to steal, then you broadcast your pre-signed transaction to spend it to a safe place kind of thing. Exactly." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "54:04", "start": 3244.12, "text": "So I love that. Thinking in that space as well. So I think there-- so I'm, I'm optimistic that there's lots of improvements to be had, but I do think it's, it's the number one risk and, and definitely needs designer involvement as well to be, to be part of that. and, and also just to get-- I, I think it's gonna require many, many different recipes to be experimented with, which means many different wallets need to be created. And so-- you know, there have been a lot of wallets already created in the Bitcoin space, and, you know, but what's kind of surprising to me is even though there's many dozens, if not up to a hundred wallets that have been created, there's only a handful that are like what I would call good, and none are fantastic. So I, I think the next five or ten years we're gonna see ten times more wallets created. and, and this gets back to why I think the LDK can have an outsized impact is if it makes it easier for developers to create new wallets and try new recipes, that's good for, good for Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:10", "start": 3310.01, "text": "Right. speaking of private keys, you made me, think of, seeds as well, right? Do you have any views on? So right now it can be a little difficult in terms of backing up of your seed, right? Because unless there's versioning and birthday and so on, and I know for example there's LND with their AEZED, but there's BIP thirty nine as well, which is kind of the main standard that, you know, Coldcard, Trezor, Ledger, et cetera, they all use that, and that, that is a bit of a b- like a bit of a challenge because, I can sort of understand the view of someone like, say, Thomas Verkland from Electrum, he wants to be able to say, \"Look, password phrase, and you need to know, okay, what is the derivation path and so on. Do you have any views around that on whether that could be simplified or is it just a, it's a nature of the beast?" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "56:03", "start": 3362.52, "text": "Well, it's an, it's an easy question in the sense that I definitely think it can be simplified. And, you know, exactly how it's simplified, I mean, that's one reason I like, I like the category of solutions that are seedless, 'cause that, that solves the problem just if there is no seed. now the current approach have their own drawbacks as well. Like, Kasa is a beautiful design, but currently, you know, it costs money, and even if you roll your own, you're buying like three to five hardware wallets and trying to set that up on your own is kind of a challenge right now. And just, you know, even if it were free, it's still a lot to ask mainstream users to sort of deploy these hardware wallets geographically dispersed. so that's why I kinda like the space of social key recovery as well, 'cause if you can store keys on friends and family phones, you're not buying new hardware, you can naturally get geographic dispersion. The challenge there, of course, is they're effectively hot wallets then. so, you know, all of these different approaches have, have trade-offs, and, I, I think it, it gets back to, I think there needs to be dozens, if not hundreds, of experimen-experiments the next five or ten years to really pan-- you know, have it pan out what are, what are the best approaches." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:27", "start": 3447.41, "text": "Right. Yeah. And, and I think, you're right that there can be some value in those social recovery mechanisms, but I can just see on the other side of that is, what if you give it-- you have your Maybe you're no longer, you fall out with that guy and he's no longer your friend, and now you've gotta-- so then you've gotta constantly like shift around, you know, that aspect of it as well. but I suppose these are all aspects of, like, as you say, experimentation and time to kind of figure out what's the best approach." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "57:56", "start": 3475.61, "text": "That specific solution is definitely not solved yet, but I, I do think the, you know, in terms of like your mom loses her phone or replaces her phone, you can use things like dead man switches to-- or like And the user saying, \"Hey, you might wanna go ask mom if, if she upgraded her phone, and if she did, then deploy a new key. or yeah, if you, if you have a falling out, you can do a key rotation and, hopefully create a reasonable user experience around that.\" But I, but I do think for that to be mainstream, it would need to be a system where the user gets notified saying, \"Hey, there's, is a problem, or there probably is a problem, check it out, and hopefully just like talk to someone or click a yeah, that, that needs to, if, so, so getting back to like grants that we're wanting to give out, like if someone has, you know, a project in mind or, or a technology or some kind of piece of infrastructure that could help this, you know, feel free to reach out, we'd love to help support that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:58", "start": 3538.49, "text": "Yeah, and, Square Crypto, we've got to talk about your Twitter account because I think it's hilarious. it's following one person, it's following Hal, Hal Finney, and, it And it's Steve? well, I" }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "59:13", "start": 3552.9, "text": "can-- All I can say is it's not me. I, I don't, I don't have quite the sense of humor that the account has. I've been on the job for many months, and I still have no more awareness than if it's the, the four black cats, using a ouija board, creating the tweets. But," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:35", "start": 3574.64, "text": "Spooky Steve weighs in with his thoughts on, Square Crypto, who controls the account. One of the great- History of Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "59:42", "start": 3582.22, "text": "I will, yes. Now, I'll, I'll speak to the, the thinking behind the account. We, we definitely want a unique account. We don't want it to-- b-because we work on pretty technical, geeky stuff, we wanna lighten it up a little bit, be a little more entertaining, w-w-we certainly wanna appeal to the Bitcoin community, we also wanna appeal to mainstream as well, and over time, have this be an account that a, a, a new, a newcomer to Bitcoin and just some- Anyone who doesn't, hasn't listened to a hundred episodes of, of your podcast, you know, would, would maybe start with like the square, you know, Twitter account, and find, find it, approachable and, and, and interesting. So that's the-- and so we're trying to give a unique voice to it and, and sort of, you know, Yeah, just keep it engage, engaging and entertaining." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:32", "start": 3632.33, "text": "That's awesome. Yeah, I love the account, I think it's really good. And there's a need for some accounts that are more funny and, you know, lighthearted, and, you know, some, some other people, you know, are gonna be less so. So look, let's, let's wrap it up, but make sure you, you know, tell them where they can follow you and, keep up with what you're doing." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "01:00:55", "start": 3655.45, "text": "sure." }, { "speaker": "steve_lee", "time": "01:00:59", "start": 3659.51, "text": "Yeah, if you, if, a-g-again, just a, a plug, if you do have a, a project idea that you'd, you'd like to contribute to Bitcoin, feel free to, to DM me and, and, and reach out." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:08", "start": 3668.41, "text": "Fantastic, thank you for joining me, Steve. All right, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Subscribe to the show and find the transcript and show notes at my website, stephanelivera.com, or find me on Twitter at stephanelivera. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citad" } ] }