{ "episodeId": "SLP148", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "petek_radarrayne": { "name": "Petek @RadarRayne", "role": "guest", "tag": "PETEK" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.19, "text": "Hi, you're listening to the Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today, for episode one hundred and forty-eight, my guest is Petek, also known on Twitter as at RadarRayne. But first, a word for the sponsors of the show. So firstly, this podcast is brought to you by Kraken, one of the world's leading Bitcoin exchanges, known for offering a high quality platform form with high trading volume and low fees, with no minimum or hidden fees. Kraken also offer twenty four seven support and it's really fast to sign up with them. Kraken also offer Kraken Security Labs, strengthening the security of Kraken and also assessing the security of other peers in the Bitcoin space. 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Check out the Cipher Wheel by CipherSafe, ciphersafe dot io. They're producing the CypherWheel product. So if you've invested in a Bitcoin hardware wallet, or you've got a, a, another twenty-four word bip thirty-nine seed, you need to back that up and keep it in a way that's fireproof, waterproof, rustproof, petproof, and tamper evident. So look into CypherWheel. It's a new product, it's compact, it comes in a wheel shape, it masks the words of your seed unless you open the padlock tamper evident seal so you can know if it's been opened. So make sure that you or your If an accident occurs, the orders are going out now, so go and order yours at ciphersafe dot io. So for the episode today, Petek joins me and we talk about coming into Bitcoin as an artist and creating Bitcoin art, and we also talk about her experience working with Plan B on Stock to Flow inspired art pieces and her thoughts on women in Bitcoin and how some ideas were just ripe for being created. Hope you enjoy the episode. Petek, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "03:38", "start": 218.39, "text": "Hi, hi Stefan, hi. Thank you. Thanks for having me here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:43", "start": 223.17, "text": "Yeah, so look, I've been following you online, and I've seen, you've, been interacting with Plan B, and you've been sharing some of what you're doing in terms of Bitcoin and art. Now, I know your background isn't the typical libertarian or programmer or tech person. How did you get into all this?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "04:03", "start": 242.72, "text": "no, it's definitely not. So, I mean, it's a long journey, but I mean, I was mainly, a lot in the media industry, producing photo shoots and stuff like that, always, always like commissioning, creatives, art directing, branding and things like that, and like producing stuff worldwide, and I absolutely loved that. and, and then I came to South Africa, and I sort of- Did a 180 on that and, came here and started doing like art consulting for hotels and stuff like that, and so I've always, always appreciated, Creative people, and, and it's, it's in me as well, obviously. and then I just had the opportunity, to like paint some stuff for the hotels as well, 'cause they asked me to. And it just all started from there, just like just kicked off literally. And, and I, I, I was doing lots of research into Bitcoin. I mean, I, I started, I started doing that about three years ago. Three years ago? Yeah, yeah, like 2016, before, you know, I didn't buy anything then, I wanted to know what, what I was thinking of buying, but it just fascinated me so much. So I just really, literally dove, di-dove straight into that rabbit hole." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:34", "start": 334.09, "text": "But, but what was it that fascinated you?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "05:38", "start": 337.81, "text": "the, the, I," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "05:41", "start": 340.67, "text": "I would say the cultural implications, the- I just had this innate feeling that, like an inner knowing, this is gonna change the world. This is gonna change the world, and it's not just gonna change the monetary system, it's going to have like all these wider implications that are gonna touch culture and humanity in lots of different ways because Bitcoin forces you to, to reevaluate those things and educate yourself. I mean, it, it just forces you, but it's just, you just suddenly become The more you read, the more aware you become of what's wrong with the system right now and where it can go with Bitcoin, you know? I mean, it's fascinating Really?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:27", "start": 386.82, "text": "Right. Okay. And so, what's your journey been like in terms of learning about Bitcoin and learning about those cultural impacts, as you say?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "06:36", "start": 395.58, "text": "The journey, I mean, the, the, the first question I think is definitely, well, I mean, the very first question is what is Bitcoin, but then it's what is money? How does- How does money work? Oh, hang on a minute, it's just a promise, right? It's just a promise that used to be backed by gold, and now it kinda feels like an empty one, right? When you, when you hold that piece of paper in your hand, you're like, \"Um, I'm just trusting the bank that this is, you know, worth something.\" and we've all collectively- We've all collectively agreed that it's, it's, it's worth something when we, when we conduct trade with each other. So we've all just agreed that's the medium of exchange. But what if there's a better one that doesn't lose its value over time, like pretty much every fiat system ha- fiat, form of fiat money has, you know, historically speaking." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:41", "start": 460.93, "text": "Yeah. So look, coming in, in 2016, who were some of the voices you were listening to? Who were, who, who were some of the authors you were reading? What was, what was around at that point, and how did that influence your understanding now?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "07:58", "start": 477.9, "text": "Okay. I actually, I had a friend back then who just wouldn't stop talking about it, and he would literally bug me and say, \"You've got to buy this.\" and so we would always like meet up and talk about it, and, and that's when I started doing research. I'm just thinking, I-- so I wasn't on Twitter back then. I, I wasn't, I only joined this year. I'm just trying to think what, I mean, I just read about, I, yeah, I must admit, I did, I did get stuck in some shit coins, man, so that was not good. burnt my fingers there." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "08:39", "start": 519.23, "text": "But I, I think that's probably for a lot of new, or no coiners or noobs, as we like to say. I think that's probably, if you're doing your own research, that might be a natural course, especially back then when there was no warning and then this whole ICO stuff hadn't happened. And back then it was like, I mean, I remember sitting in a cafe and talking, like, there was, that was like two thousand 2017, right? Like I was in a cafe trying to get onto an exchange, right? And researching what's a good one, and then I realized I just looked up, I turn, I turn left Look right, and I saw everyone had some kind of Bitcoin exchange on their screen. In one cafe in Cape Town, I was like The fuck is going on here? This is like, this is like Bitcoin Central here or what?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "09:38", "start": 577.92, "text": "And then the guy next to me gave me a lot of information, and he actually, yeah, he gave me some good tips. But yeah, other than that, what was I reading? It was just a lot of internet research that I did, so my own research. And then I would-- then I started to gravitate, then I started to see like Plan Bs. work and his stock to flow chart, and I, all I can say is when I saw that, or every time, every time I saw that, I had this again, and in a pool, it's like Basically, I do a lot of energy work and I, I learn how to perceive energy, around me, you know, it could be situational, but it can also be the energy in a person or an object or anything you come across. Just use your awareness and perceive the energy around it, and I kept noticing I would have this gravitational pull towards his, his stock to flow chart. And then, and then, you know, I, I read it, and I wrapped my head around it, and I, I, I understood, the principles of it, you know, not, not necessarily the math completely, like not the way he sort of, you know? But But I intr- like instinctively I was like, it just clicked, I was like, \"That makes total sense. That makes total sense that the-" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "11:04", "start": 663.6, "text": "the, ratio or the, the relationship between, the stock and the production of something, measured in a, in a value, could determine if something, it- It can be a unit of monetary exchange," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:24", "start": 684.41, "text": "right? Right. And it may be that there's something underlying that we perceive These things that have, right, a high stock to flow or a low inflation rate, however you wanna call it, but we wanna accumulate those things because we think, you know, those are the more scarce things." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "11:43", "start": 702.76, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So I had that pull towards that, and, and, and inside there was something, I wanna paint that. I wanna paint that. This is going to be, I mean, I know I'm like, you know, say, but I was really this excited. I was like, I really wanna paint that. This is going to be a piece of financial history when we look back at it. This is important. So I wanna commemorate it and I wanna, I wanna celebrate that. You know? And, and that, and so I approached him and I said, \"I would love to paint this for you.\" And it was his idea to kind of go, \"Well, let's share this whole process with everybody and, and bring this to the people, b-because it's art and it's not all that geeky, blockchain coding, you know, complicated stuff, all the tech and all that stuff. This, this is another way to bring people to...\" To, Bitcoin or at least get them curious about it, you know, like people, people who don't under-- or, or who might be intimidated by all that stuff. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a bit intimidated by it, and I've been reading about it for three years." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:57", "start": 776.51, "text": "Right. So you went, you went to meet Plan B and you spoke about it, I'm sure you threw some ideas around in terms of how you can present it. Tell us a little bit about how some of those ideas formed of how you are planning to present. And Dr. Flo in an artwork." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "13:14", "start": 794.44, "text": "I already, I already knew, well, in the, in the begin- I already, 'cause I, I paint-paintings, so, so my other paintings are about drone photography, Of the planet, well, they're inspired by drone photography of, of, of like landscapes and coastal lines and mines, like I, I'm actually really into Aerial photos of mines for some reason, but well, because I feel like the geology of the planet is like a, is like a Historical diary, right? It tells a story. And so I already had that way of painting and seeing things, and then when I saw this Dr. Flowchart, I thought, \"Oh, I could use my technique and just...\" Make it look like an abstract aerial landscape, but the, but the moon thing, the, the, the idea of the moon being the background, that came afterwards. That, well, that came like, you know, a little bit after we'd been talking quite a lot about How, how this would sort of unfold?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:28", "start": 868.38, "text": "Yeah. So give us a, an overview. What's the current thinking in terms of what it will look like when it's, complete?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "14:37", "start": 876.68, "text": "So, the, the chart, I'm loosely interpreting it, but the, but the, but there's the graph, and then the, the little data, the, the Bitcoin data points that are like climbing up and, I, I sort of say that they're spiraling around that That, trajectory that's heading, you know, towards the higher market cap and all that. and then there's the other, trajectory of, of, gold, silver and diamonds and palladium and all that. And how their SRF relates to the market cap. And then the background in his chart is, it's just like, you know, A gradient of some sort with lots of lines. and that background is going to be the moon landscape. So I've made, I've made like craters for the data. So all the data points of like the Bitcoin data points and the gold and the silver, those are those are the craters on the moon. Yeah. So that's just this interpretation. there, there, there can be other interpretations of it, and it doesn't have to be the moon. But I just thought that's a brilliant, wonderful, exciting way to start it off. No." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:58", "start": 957.62, "text": "And so, for listeners, you've probably listened to the earlier episodes with Plan B. I think in episode sixty-seven, the first one, we spoke about how there were two different charts, and the one you're referring to here is like comparing commodities and their own stock to flow ratio versus that of Bitcoin. And obviously, as Bitcoin is going through these halving cycles every four years, then you can plot out theoretically what it would be. And so that's, what you're getting. Out there, Patrick. so let's talk a little bit about the materials that are going into this. Tell us about that." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "16:34", "start": 994.42, "text": "I'm actually really excited about that because that was like one of those ridiculous ideas, where you're just like, \"Yeah, well, that's just, like, that's not gonna happen. \" I was like, \"Well, if I am painting the background as the moon, \" First I thought, oh man, I would love to put some meteorite on there, like actual meteorite. So, by the way, this has, like, none of this has been announced yet on, on my Twitter feed, but, by the time this, this, episode comes out, I'll, you know, I'll share it with everyone. I mean, the rea- the reaction's been already incredible from, from people. but yeah, this hasn't been announced yet, so, so I wanted to put meteorite on there. And I thought, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll get hold, I'll contact a geologist, and I'll get some meteorite. And then, and then I thought, oh man, it's the moon. I would love to-- Why? It would be so awesome to put some actual moon rock on there, right? Like! And I thought the only way to get moon rock is from NASA, from the Apollo missions. Which by the way, I still wanna do. I, no, honestly, I'm, I still wanna do it. I, I, I'm gonna get my hands onto Moonrock from NASA, one way or another." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "18:04", "start": 1084.42, "text": "No, but they, they, they collected a, a, a very, you know, a certain amount, and they only, they only dish it out to scientists and universities for Studies, you know, and experiments. But then this geologist had, had, lunar meteorite, and I was like, \"Oh my God, like actual pieces from the moon.\" So some, some meteorites, I didn't even know this, like some meteorites actually come from the moon. End, end up landing on planet Earth. And so it's obviously it's scientifically, analyzed for its composition. And, you know, certified as being real pieces from the moon. I mean, very, very tiny little amounts, only like just a few grams, obviously, 'cause it's expensive shit. So, but it's like, you, you, you, yeah, you've got a piece of the moon on, on, on the, on the, on your artwork. So, so Plan B actually said, \"I, I wanted to like smash that up as well and, and, and, sprinkle it over, over the painting.\" And then, he called me and he said, \"Oh,\" Actually, can you do me a favor? Can you, can you not smash it up? Can you just leave it in one piece so that, you know, people, my friends, can touch it? Like, can touch the moon. Right. How amazing is that? Yeah. I was like, \"Wow, yeah, I, I'm with you on that.\" I thought, \"Yeah, actually, that's really nice.\" Yeah. So it's a collaboration. It's a, you know, like a few other people have commissioned me for their own version of it, and each version's gonna be very different and suited to each person and their personality and their values around Bitcoin, But it is still a, a, a journey that they also take with me, the artist, and I, you know, I, I wanna hear what their ideas are, and I'll, I'll paint it for them. You know?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:17", "start": 1216.91, "text": "Is this going to be like a limited run? There'll only be a few or what's the story of that? Well, that's," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "20:23", "start": 1222.99, "text": "again, that's an energy thing. So I, you know, I, I did sort of think, 'cause the reac- the reaction has been so, like, \"Wow.\" And I've sort of gone, oh man, how many, how many of these am I, how many of these am I prepared to paint? You know? Like, I'm not gonna be like the stock to flow girl for the rest of my life. So, ha but, I, I'd like to paint a family of them or a collection or a body of work of them, and as long as they all feel different to me, and as long as I still feel excited to paint them, That's, that's gonna happen. And, and also there's this wider, there's this wider, well, mission, so to speak. You know, everyone who hangs one up in their house, they can invite their friends round and, and, and then it's a talking point. So it touches, it's, it's that bridge, it's that bridge again that, that Plan B talks about a lot, being the bridge to, to Bitcoin and the art can also be the bridge to Bitcoin, like art. Art meets science, art meets data, and, yeah. So I don't know how many I'm gonna, I'm actually, yeah, no, I'm thinking like, okay, at some point I might have to close that, that list and just give it some" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:45", "start": 1304.75, "text": "scarcity." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "21:46", "start": 1306.11, "text": "Well, that as well. No, I mean, each one is absolutely unique, so I'm not worried about that. It's just, it's just I need to enjoy painting them, that's very, very important. but I feel, I feel like, And this is, this might sound funny to some people, but actually quite a lot of you guys, quite a lot of the Bitcoin community gets this, I've noticed, because I've spoken to quite a few now. What's interesting, well, to me, I, I, when I paint, I, I channel. I just, I just, I speak to-- oh, no, this sounds funny, but literally, I can-- I, I feel like I connect consciously with the energy of Bitcoin, and I go, \"Hey, Bitcoin, tell me...\" What, what do you want me to paint? What's this gonna look like? How do you wanna, you know? And I, I speak to the, I ask the canvas, I ask the energy of the person who's commissioning it." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "22:47", "start": 1366.61, "text": "so I, I basically, I'm channeling, I'm just channeling what's coming through and what wants to become reality. The same way Bitcoin wants to become reality. I mean, I can absolutely-- and we can, we can all feel that. Everyone who's excited about Bitcoin can see how it just wants to and is becoming more and more a reality. It's like this big black hole that's just sucking the energy out of fiat money." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:17", "start": 1396.95, "text": "Right. And it's like, it's, it's like, you, you talk about this idea of personal meaning, right? So different ideas have a certain meaning to you, or when you hear a certain song, it reminds you of a certain time and a place that you- You might have heard that song when you were studying for exams or whatever. Yes. so w-how does that play in for you in terms of things like when you first heard about Bitcoin or when you had your aha moment about Bitcoin? Does that also have a similar kind of feeling there too?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "23:48", "start": 1428.19, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, oh For example, that moment in the cafe for me was just like, \"Oh my God, what's going on here?\" Right? and, and, the same way, so everyone's like Bought their Bitcoin for the first time, at a different, date, and, you know, time and place, And, you know, someone might be like, \"Oh, I remember when, I remember when it hit all time high,\" and someone who's really into this will have a lot of emotions attached to that and, and it will be a very personal memory to them, the same way we know where we were, where we all were when 9/11 happened, you know, even if that was a, a very, very tragic event, it was It, it, it was important to huma-humanity in such a way that we all know where we were when that happened. and happy moments as well. So, but With Bitcoin, like if you look at the BTC to USD chart or whatever your currency is, if, if you're a geek about it, you know exactly, you know exactly where on that chart you bought Bitcoin for the first time. So I'm also, I'm also very interested in painting that for people, and, and so it would be like a secret diary to them, like if they look at the art, if they look at the art on the wall, it might be the four-hour chart, it might be the logarithmic, the whole eleven-year log-tight. but I could then pinpoint that moment secretively on that painting, maybe with some moon rock or something. But for someone else who sees that piece, that painting, it'll be like, \"Oh, that's just a pretty piece of- Abstract art or what the fuck is that? But to the person, it's really personal, it's a really personal moment in time. So I, I, I like that sort of double entendre, that, you know, yeah, you know what I mean." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:02", "start": 1562.28, "text": "It meant a lot to you, but not necessarily to other people. I guess, in the future, people, it, it, because what happens is over time, once you've passed, once enough time has passed, it just, the, what used to be big movements just looks like tiny blips because it's just, you know, it's, it's gone away so, so much. Yeah. But to you, it might feel a lot more real." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "26:24", "start": 1584.08, "text": "Oh, God, yeah. Or, or, I mean, when, when you zoom in onto that log chart, I You know, the chopiness is all, it's all a matter of scale and," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "26:37", "start": 1596.97, "text": "yeah, also I, I, I also say that, or believe that I, I think it's the purest form of, well, it, it reflects human nature much more purely than, than let's say, the stock market, which is manipulated or like By corporations and governments and, people in power. So I think Bitcoin is a much, Pure reflection of human emotions. In that sense, like, like a seismic, graph of emotions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:17", "start": 1637.07, "text": "Yeah. And so, ha-have you had much experience then with people who got interested from an art perspective, or they just saw the artwork and then they, then went on to learn more about Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "27:31", "start": 1651.47, "text": "are you being now with this, Dr. Flynn? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:33", "start": 1653.4, "text": "or just, yeah, or just any of your friends, have you had any experiences like that over the years?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "27:38", "start": 1658.04, "text": "Oh, with my friends? y-y-yeah, with my friends, I've got, I mean, I've, I have onboarded a, a couple of people, and actually, a few women, actually. Three women actually, so that's really cool. it's not a lot, but it's, you know, something. So my sister and two other friends. And I did like a little, Bitcoin for beginners, like morning session, because, because I, I said, I mentioned to one friend, I said, \"Oh, she, she was always so kind and gifting to me with her wisdom.\" and then I thought, \"Well, what can I, what can I give you in return?\" And, and I said, \"Would you like me to teach you a little bit about Bitcoin?\" 'Cause I knew she was curious. And then, and then she went, \"Yes.\" And I said, \"Okay, well, let's do it on Saturday.\" And then before I knew it, like she had invited someone, and she said, \"Oh, do you mind if that person brings someone?\" And then that person said, \"Do you mind if I bring someone?\" And then that person said, \"Do you mind if I bring someone?\" And it was just like, \"Uh, okay.\" and it, and it, and it was, it was a really interesting conversation, and these were all people who really didn't know much about it but were naturally curious. so when I bring it up, I mean, that's just one instance, but when I bring it up Amongst my friends who aren't, you know, there is definitely a natural curiosity there, definitely. And then I point them in the directions of, you know, like the little Bitcoin book or, You know, the Bitcoin standard and your and, y-your podcast and especially also, what Bitcoin did, 'cause that's a bit more easy to get into, and then you can always jump over to like your content for more deeper insights. Things like that. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:37", "start": 1776.66, "text": "Right, yeah. and, what's your take? You mentioned earlier that there's not a lot of women, in, into Bitcoin. What's your take on why that is?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "29:45", "start": 1785.45, "text": "I think that's a real pity, I really do." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "29:51", "start": 1790.52, "text": "And I kinda feel sorry for the guys in, in the Bitcoin space, 'cause I'm like, like, imagine going to like one of those parties and it's just like ninety-five percent guys. It's like, come on, girls! That's where they're all hanging out, come on, let's, you know, let's come to the party." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "30:08", "start": 1807.64, "text": "no really, and, I, I think it's because of that whole tech side that it might seem so intimidating and geeky and, oh, that's just for computer programmers and All that nonsense. but it's, I think they're missing, I think they're missing out, they haven't quite cottoned on to the fact that this is culturally going to have like amazing, implications. so for example," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "30:46", "start": 1845.73, "text": "Tr-Tr-Travis Maier's really good at talking about that stuff. it's like he just, he's like, \"Okay, so who are you gonna be? What kind of person are you gonna be?\"" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "30:59", "start": 1859.46, "text": "because it teaches you about, well, you, you start learning about trust and, you know, with, with when you, when, when it's about holding your private keys, it's like, well, how much do you trust yourself? Right? How much do I really trust myself? how reliable am I towards myself? What's, what level of integrity do I have? Like what's my integrity? All those things, confidence, reliability, independence, health, mental health. So Trace Mayer talks about that quite a lot, mental health. But all those things, if women get that, it has, I mean- You know, women are usually the ones who teach their children and the next generation, so us- usually one, the ones who pass on culture, and, or should be a big part of that at least, and I think that's Where women can come in, definitely. And also with that creative, that little creative edge and, you know, just looking at it from a different angle from a Feminine creative angle. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, other people aren't, that like men aren't creative. It's just women are known to be very creative, you know? They, they look at those things naturally in that way. Yeah. But we're all, we're all humans at the end of the day, so, why, why shouldn't? We include more women, we'll get them excited about it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:37", "start": 1957.01, "text": "and you also had another theme that I've picked up on, which is around this idea, it's almost like, multiple discovery, right? It's like, oh" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "32:45", "start": 1964.54, "text": "yeah, yeah, multiple" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:45", "start": 1965.46, "text": "people can sort of come up with the same invention or some similar idea at a similar time. What's your take on why that occurs and how that's happening?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "32:54", "start": 1973.94, "text": "Yes, I mean, it's, it's a known phenomena. I think it's fascinating, where, very meaningful inventions, in ac-across history have been invented around the same time. And, you know, we're talking, you know, if, if you look at the bigger picture of history, you know, thousands and thousands of years, Very, these meaningful things have like been invented around the same year, sometimes the same month even, and we're talking like in all sorts of," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "33:34", "start": 2013.5, "text": "or is it industries or, parts of life like health or, science, or like so Darwinism, well, the evolution, What does he call it again? select, sorry, go blank. That thing that Darwin invented." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:57", "start": 2036.63, "text": "Survival of the fittest." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "33:58", "start": 2038.3, "text": "Well, yeah, but there's, it's got another name to it. But there was someone else who, I think his name was Wallace, who invented, who, who came up with that same concept. Really around the same time, and, and they even knew of each other. No one had already developed his theory but not published it. And then Darwin saw that the other guy was onto the same thing, and he was like, \"Oh shit, I better like publish mine before he does, right?\" And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:28", "start": 2068.07, "text": "it," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "34:30", "start": 2069.83, "text": "it's the same with photography, Henry Fox Talbot and Louis Daguerre, very, very similar timing of inventing how. Photography is fit to pay par. I mean, electricity, all, all sorts, all sorts. So I believe, I mean, personally, I believe that, that happens because those ideas are already there. They're already there on another dimension, what I would, what you can say, the universe, or you could call it source consciousness, some people might call it God, that it, it's already there and it's ripe for the picking, like a low hanging fruit, it's ready in time and space for us to receive it. And if, if you, if you're the one who's most open to it, to, to tapping into and tuning into that Level of consciousness, you can download it, and that's also why I believe that Satoshi downloaded that information. He was so open to, To receiving that information that he, I, I believe he just, he or the group or she just literally downloaded it for humanity to, to receive it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:51", "start": 2151.02, "text": "Right. And now, I think one idea that's related to that is, Matt Ridley. He's got a book. I think it was in 2015 or 16. Oh, okay. I think it's called The Evolution of Ideas. I think you would really like that book, because in that book, he's talking about a very similar idea. What he's talking about there is that- Oftentimes in human history, yeah, there were a lot of people working on the same idea because that was just what-- that was kind of the next step. Yeah. And so, right? And it's almost going against this idea of the, the great man theory that, oh, there was this great man, and he invented this idea, and without him, we wouldn't have this idea, because in reality, as you're saying, there were oftentimes in history where multiple people were working on a similar idea, and it's not to say that, totally, you know, it wasn't hard Be the first so that you got the credit for it, as opposed to if you didn't invent it, it would never, you know, like if we'd, if, if DARPA and whatever didn't do the internet, someone else might have. Someone else would have, exactly. And," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "36:49", "start": 2208.61, "text": "and someone else would have invented it pretty much around that same time, pretty much. So it, it's, it's like inevitable, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:57", "start": 2217.27, "text": "Right. And so if you sort of understand and look back at the history of, like, okay, the cypherpunks and what were some of the ideas that came before, right? B-money, BitGold, Hashcash." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "37:07", "start": 2227.38, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:08", "start": 2227.64, "text": "All of these ideas were preceding Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "37:10", "start": 2230.2, "text": "Yes, yes. So they were already tapping into that information, that, consciousness, and they were already connecting and tapping into it, but they, they didn't sort of manage to download the purest form of it, or it was still evolving so yeah, I could, could, yeah, I'm totally with you on that. But that's really interesting. That's, that sounds like a great book. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:33", "start": 2252.68, "text": "Yeah, oh, I think we're on a bit of a streak with Matt Ridley once, 'cause on the American Idol one, we were talking about his other one, The Rational Optimist, but yeah. So look, I mean, that's, that's kind of this theory of Bitcoin was downloaded, right? Yeah. So, so I guess from your perspective, how-- has it been difficult Been, a difficult part for you or has it just been like a natural thing to learn?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "38:00", "start": 2280.2, "text": "It's been, up until a sort of level of, knowledge Or depth of knowledge, it's actually been quite easy for me 'cause I'm, 'cause, I mean, if you're curious, you're just gonna absorb it, right? You're just gonna enjoy learning it. so, I mean, I've, I've gone down the, the Bitcoin rabbit hole, the, you know, which, which leads you down the Austrian economics one, the what is money rabbit hole," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "38:33", "start": 2313.07, "text": "all, all, all those different things, but my sort of- Wall right now is, okay, getting onto, getting onto a, a, a, running my own node. so I'm like, yeah, I'd love to run my own node, I'd really love to do that, but there's just so much I need to learn, or I feel like I need to learn before I can get there. But at the same time, I've, you know, like I've, you know, I've got a, a hard wallet, and I'm, I'm, I'm cool with that, right? But even, even just getting to that stage was like, okay, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this now." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:13", "start": 2353.4, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "39:14", "start": 2354.16, "text": "I'm gonna own my private keys, like I'm not gonna do this centralized shit." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:19", "start": 2359.2, "text": "Right. Yeah. And look, as I say, it's a, it's a progression thing, right? So I don Okay, now you've got a hardware wallet, now that's, you know, that's the next level. Yes," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "39:29", "start": 2369.37, "text": "yes. But I, I, you know, I think it would be nice if people don't sort of give up there, because, because the ethos of Bitcoin, you know, re-really having a priv-your, your own node is It's so part of that ethos. I mean, otherwise why you'd, you know, why?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:50", "start": 2389.54, "text": "Yeah. And if you," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "39:50", "start": 2390.46, "text": "if you don't wanna get there, then I feel like you're not quite getting what, what Bitcoin really is about or what What impact it can have on the world." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:01", "start": 2400.89, "text": "So look, let's talk a bit more, more about Bitcoin and art just generally, and not like the stock to flow aspect of it. Do you have any other ideas around ways art can be used to communicate the value of Bitcoin, or is it just more in your view, it's more just like, it's an expression of what you're passionate about, and other people, they see that artwork or they hear it or they experience it, and they just, they just want it for themselves?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "40:23", "start": 2422.86, "text": "I'm, I'm getting a lot of excitement from people. I mean, there's, there's, you know, there's other Bitcoin artists out there, and they're all doing like all these amazing things and," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "40:34", "start": 2434.29, "text": "in, in so many different ways. I mean, a lot of them are actually quite figurative about it, you know, like portraits of Halfini, and but done in a really clever way and very detailed, and, like everyone's got different skill sets, so all those different aesthetics will appeal to different types of people, and that's, I think that's awesome. I think the more varied that space can become, and it's still quite a narrow space space, the, the sort of Bitcoin or crypto art space, and, and I think letting, you know, it's not, it's not just, I mean, it's not just Bitcoin, but- I think that's where you sort of end up gravitating towards in the end, I think. But maybe for other people it isn't like that, and that's totally fine. but that whole- You know, all that blockchain and all that technology and the, the ideas and the ethos, that inspires so many artists with so many different skill sets, and I, I, I absolutely love that. So, but the people who have contacted me Just off the back of these couple of videos that I've put out, and I mean, for me that's like quite new, and I'm like, \"Oh my gosh, what is going on here?\" I thought I'm the only geek here doing this who, you know, but- Everyone gets it, they just get it, and they get so excited about it. And I, I must say, like, you know, each and every one of them who, who's like been contacting me or even just like sending these little messages on Twitter going, \"Oh my God, I love that.\" They are so important to me. I can't even tell you, I'm so grateful to every single one of them and, and, yeah, I've had amazing conversations with people. I've had amazing conversations, like really inspiring, and each person is so different, and they see va- the, they, they sort of home in on a different value, around Bitcoin. Do you know what I mean? Like, to one person, it's all about the freedom and the liberty that it presents, and to someone else, it's, you know, fuck the banks or whatever, right? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:52", "start": 2572.02, "text": "So, how do you convey things like, you know, monetary sovereignty in art?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "42:59", "start": 2579.15, "text": "That's a very good question, and that is, that is so abstract. And, I, for me, I do that energetically, you know, like what I was saying earlier on, I'm, I tap into that person's values, and then I sort of, you know, colors, colors have different vibrations, they have different, you know, the, the, the way and textures, they, they convey different feelings and emotions, even if you're painting an abstract piece of art. But it, you, you can capture different values and emotions in it." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "43:36", "start": 2616.46, "text": "I mean, Mark Roscoe, for example, was brilliant at that I mean, these giant, giant paintings, they were just colors, but man, they vibrated if you, like, it's different if you've actually sat in front of a real Rothko, than if you look at it, in a magazine. It's like, it just speaks, it just speaks, it gives you a, it gives you an emotion. So when I'm painting When I'm painting and when I'm, I, I tap into that person's values, and I, I, I, I then express it, in color and texture, and, and by infusing the energy into it Onto the canvas. Well, that's, that's how, how I would do that, but yeah, it's a very abstract process and, and maybe not everyone, you know, gets it or-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:35", "start": 2675.09, "text": "Right. Yeah, look, look, it's not everyone's, cup of tea, but, certainly it's like sometimes there are things that you don't, you know, they sort of work for a reason that you don't understand, or you just, you see it and you just sense something and you just feel a certain way about that art. Yes. so what, what's your thoughts on, running a business? do, do you see it like that is, i-it's gonna become like a bigger part of your business over this next year or two That you might actually start doing more Bitcoin artwork as opposed to, your other artwork?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "45:10", "start": 2709.95, "text": "Oh, yeah, no, yeah, I, I, I mean, I'm not gonna, I don't see it as a business, I see it as, I'm just following the energy of it, and it's-- and it excites me, and it excites the people I'm creating it for, so I'm just following, I'm stepping into that energy, and if at any point it doesn't excite me anymore, I'll, I'll, I I, I, I do really feel that, you know, and it won't always, like I said earlier on, it won't always be the stop to flow chart itself. It'll, but, but I love the idea of painting data, right? And there's so much ways, so many different ways of interpreting the data Around Bitcoin. There's like, you know, gosh, I mean, we could talk forever about that. But I don't know, it's just, it's sucking me, it's sucking me into that direction, and it's like, Bitcoin is my muse. Right, so that's, that's how I see it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:07", "start": 2766.69, "text": "Yeah, I like that way of framing it. And, another thing you mentioned around expressing data into art, but then you've also got a-- we also remember that that data might change or, you know, certain relationships might change. So how do you think about it in a way that, like, are you trying to make it more in a timeless way?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "46:27", "start": 2787.33, "text": "Yes, that's true. Yes, I know what you mean. So, I mean, for example, we don't know if the stock-to-flow model will hold, right? We, we don't know that for sure. but I still, nevertheless, I still feel it's an important piece of financial history. and it's not like, oh, come May It, we, it's gonna be determined whether it's true or false. That's gonna still take time. It's gonna still take like at least a year or a year and a half, but it's almost like, what do we already know? Everyone who's in this space, like, your, your instinct for-" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "47:09", "start": 2828.85, "text": "Why you're so drawn to Bitcoin? What do you already know? You know? So the stock, this one piece of data is just one part of it, and it might lead to new knowledge on, and other data around it, and then that also becomes significant, and it's all part of the journey. So each and every piece of those data, they all come together In this beautiful sort of puzzle, about, yeah, facilitate, facilitating the understanding, of people to understand what Bitcoin is or get excited about it, and, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:44", "start": 2864.11, "text": "Like, look, Plan B himself, has said, \"All models are wrong, but some are useful,\" right? And he's even said himself that he thinks, \"Look, the model will break down at some point in, like, at the best case, it'll probably break down in the late twenty twenties, right? Even assuming the best possible case.\" So I think that's worthwhile. Talking about it, it's more just a qu-question of when does the model break down, if, you know?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "48:05", "start": 2885.15, "text": "Yeah, I think when, once, you know, corporates and governments really start stepping in, then it's, it's not gonna be such a pure reflection of, of, you know, human, human nature or, or the energy of money itself, right? So I also believe that, that, that chart, well, the, the logarithmic chart of Bitcoin is, is an expression of the, the, the energy of- Energy of money in its purest mathematical, non-physical form, right? And, and once human control and manipulation and corruption steps in, it's not gonna re- it's gonna behave differently. But at least we know right now, without all those things or with very little of that, at least we know this is actually the purest form. Of m-money we've managed to express in form of, a code. That's, it's, it's like Satoshi has freed money from its physicality and given it a code, and, and there's like maths behind that, and, and, and maths, maths is part of nature You know? So, yeah, it's not always gonna behave like that once it gets too big, but the nature of it is inherently there already, and it will always be there, to see running." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:38", "start": 2978.26, "text": "Right, and, look, I think it'll, even if it does, break down at some point, it doesn't necessarily mean, the values of Bitcoin are being compromised. I think it's just, no. It's, it's just reached a certain level of success or failure potentially that Bitcoin has reached, that, it has just gotten to that level. So, so tell us a little bit about the timeline then for your artwork on, on this particular Stock to Flow artwork. W-what's the, timeframe that you're looking at in terms of, releasing it and so on? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "50:12", "start": 3011.87, "text": "Yeah. so this one, this one's taking a long time 'cause it's the first one, and, I, I, I-- It's, it's very, very layered, so I have to be, I have to be very strategic about When do I paint what layer? And 'cause I haven't done those layers yet, I'm like, sometimes I'm a bit nervous to do the next one. I'm like, oh shit, like now the moon rocks going on, you know? I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna ruin the whole thing. No, no. So I wait for that moment where it feels good and where I feel like, okay, I know what I'm going to do next. And then there's all these videos, and I'll tell you what, video editing is, is honestly, it's just a" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "50:55", "start": 3054.75, "text": "I don't, I mean, I've had to teach myself and it takes so much time. So all these things are taking, they're making this particular one very stretched out. Then there was Christmas in between, so, but I think I'm close to finishing it, so I, I feel like it's quite close. I'd give it like another two or three weeks." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:16", "start": 3075.6, "text": "Okay, great. And" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "51:16", "start": 3076.3, "text": "then, and then there's gonna be limited edition prints of that one, and, I think well, people are very excited about that 'cause, they'll all have a p- the, the print, you know, they can, they can have that. In their house or wherever. And," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:36", "start": 3095.89, "text": "they're paying in Bitcoin as well?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "51:38", "start": 3098.09, "text": "Some of them are, oh yeah, which is also awesome, like that's whole, you know? That's, on theme, you know? And then, the other-- So then there's other commissions. So there's already, there's already a lineup of commissions, of original paintings. And- Inter-different interpretations and variations of the, the stock to flow chart. And I, I, I mean, it doesn't have to be exactly that stock to flow chart, it could be the very, very first one that he ever did, 'cause I, I love the graphics of that and the simplicity of it. So that's also a piece-- that, the first one he put out is also a piece of financial history. So they were all-- he's developed them over the course of time and he's refined it. so I'd love to paint that very first one for someone Well, and, it, yeah, so those will also then have limited edition prints, just so that, you know, to, to share that excitement and so people, you know, don't have to commission an original if they wanna be inspired by it. those, the, the next originals will, I'll be much faster at painting them, just because by then I'll, I'll be familiar with the layers and the process, and I probably won't be doing so many videos about it, 'cause, yeah, that, that does Take me out of the studio a bit." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:02", "start": 3182.26, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "53:03", "start": 3183.06, "text": "Yeah, but I love the journey, the journey's been, it's just so exciting, I love it, and all the input from people is, I'm so, honestly, I'm so Grateful and inspired, and it's just, it's, it's, yeah, it's really touching and amazing how people have been reacting. Yeah. And also the synchronicity, like, it, that's also really interesting, like the people, I can't, I can't, you know, I'm not gonna disclose. anything, that reveals their identity, but, the, the, the amount of coincidences Or synchronicities that are sort of falling into place with each person. There's quite a few, I'm just like, \"Wow, this is incredible,\" you know? But that's because we all speak the same language in one way or another, you know? We, The fact that we're all excited about and get what Bitcoin, what it is, what it means to, Humanity and, you know, financial history. The, the fact that we all get that means we already, I don't know, like, you know, we talk about it being a community" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:21", "start": 3260.55, "text": "It is a" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "54:21", "start": 3260.83, "text": "community, we, we all get each other, so we, we are already on that same wavelength, is what I mean." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:27", "start": 3267.06, "text": "Great. so look, let's, hear a bit about your, your website and, you know, where the listeners can, follow you and if they wanna find out more or if they would like to order some, where can they find you?" }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "54:39", "start": 3279.09, "text": "Okay. I haven't got a website up yet for the orders. I'm just taking that directly, like in the, Direct messagings of Twitter. So I'm on Twitter at, it's, it's Petek, P E T E K, and then the handle is at Radar Rayne, R A D A R, R A Y N E, so you can find me there and you can watch the videos there and, or where else there's, There's a, a Cape Town gallery which has some of my work up, they're called Axis Art Gallery, dot c o dot z a so those are, those are good places, so that's a like good place. well, Twitter is like, yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:25", "start": 3325.49, "text": "the main place to get you, yeah. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "55:27", "start": 3327.49, "text": "yeah, exactly. All" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:29", "start": 3328.83, "text": "right, well, that's great. look, so look, thanks very much for joining me, Petek. It's, not been my typical episode, but I've enjoyed chatting with you." }, { "speaker": "petek_radarrayne", "time": "55:38", "start": 3338.02, "text": "Oh, okay. Oh, thank you, thank you so much. It's been really nice chatting with you, and yeah, you've asked some very interesting questions as well, so also, yeah, see where that takes me as well. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:50", "start": 3350.37, "text": "Alright, that's it for the episode this week. Make sure you check out the show notes and the transcript at stephanlivera dot com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }