{ "episodeId": "SLP150", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "samourai_wallet": { "name": "Samourai Wallet", "role": "guest", "tag": "SAMOURAI" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.77, "text": "Hi and welcome to the Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today my guest is Samourai Wallet. The Stephan Livera podcast is brought to you by Kraken, one of the world's leading Bitcoin exchanges. They offer a high quality platform with high trading volume and low fees. They've also got twenty four seven support and they've got a chat box so you can very quickly and easily- Get your questions answered. Kraken also have Kraken Security Labs assessing the security and improving the security not just of Kraken, but also of other peers within the Bitcoin ecosystem. Kraken also offer Kraken Pro mobile app. Kraken Pro delivers all the security and features you love about the Kraken exchange in a beautiful, mobile-first design for advanced Bitcoin trading on the go. They've also got some updates recently where you can add markets and list favorites, you can refine your timeframes for charting, and you can also receive vibrating feedback on all major actions. Go and sign up at kraken dot com. This episode is also brought to you by Unchained Capital. They're a Bitcoin financial services company empowering customers with financial freedom and control. All their products and services are built on the foundation of multisig, so they offer these two of three multi-signature vaults. You can use Trezor or Ledger, and Coldcard is coming soon. They've got an easy-to-use web interface, and you can secure your bitcoins and then separate your keys geographically to give yourself a little bit more security. And in that model, Unchained will act as the backup or as the co-signer. And then if you need to access USD liquidity, you can use Unchained's collateralized loans. You can put up bitcoins and get back USD. That bitcoin is stored On chain in dedicated multisig addresses and it's never rehypothecated, and you still hold one of three keys in that scenario. I'm really impressed with Unchained. Check out some of my recent interviews with Will Cole, Parker Lewis, Drew Bonsall. They've got awesome services and content. Go and check them out at unchained-dashcapital.com Next is Cyphersafe, cyphersafe dot io. They're producing the Cypher Wheel product. So if you've invested in a Bitcoin hardware wallet and you've got those twelve or twenty-four words, the BIP thirty-nine seed, have you backed that up in a way that's fireproof, waterproof, rustproof, petproof, and tamper-evident? So with the Cypher Wheel, it comes in a wheel shape and you slide in the little letter tiles, and you have four tiles per word, which is enough to recover for a BIP thirty-nine seed, and also the Seed. So with that padlock tamper evidence seal, you know if it's been opened or not. So make sure you or your loved ones have access to your bitcoins if an accident occurs. Orders are going out now, go and order yours at cyphersafe dot io. So for this interview, it was done while I was in London for advancing Bitcoin conference. So we talk about a lot of things. We talk about creeping KYC, the existence or non-existence of taint and what people can do about that, stonewall and coin selection algorithms, stowaway and CoinJoin. Wallet fingerprinting, mobile mixing, Dojo, Ronin Dojo, as well as Samourai Wallet's thoughts on Lightning and Liquid. One other note, apologies, I did have some audio problems with the Samourai Wallet side of the audio for this interview. Unfortunately, I did do a pre-audio check, but the cable was-- must have been faulty. So, I've, I've done what I can to clean it up. I think it's still very listenable. There's probably just about ten or fifteen minutes where there's some slight distortion, but hopefully that doesn't- doesn't distract you too much. Here's the interview. Samurai Wallet, welcome back to the show. Good to be back." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "03:38", "start": 217.81, "text": "Thank you for having me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:39", "start": 218.78, "text": "So obviously I'm a big fan of the wallet, this is now your third appearance on the show, we've got to, you know, get a bit of an update from you on what's going on with Samurai Wallet and, you know, Bitcoin for the streets. So look, let's start with Bitcoin for the streets, right? So this is the theme that has come up in some of our earlier discussions and also, other, let's call them related podcast episodes, people like Puravida or Ergo, who was on the show as well. We're, we're in this environment where we're seeing more and more creeping KYC, as you say. How do you, how does that, how do you see that playing out?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "04:16", "start": 255.94, "text": "creeping, KYC in general? Yeah. Well, we know how it plays out. We've seen the introduction of, of KYC in, in the '70s. We've seen the massive, enlargement of the KYC program after 9/11, encoded in the Patriot Act. And we are at the point now where we're starting to see," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "04:39", "start": 279.43, "text": "Everyday people can be financially excluded as a result of this system. So if they, you know, if, if these people make the wrong social move, they might find themselves on the wrong end of, Of the ability to get a banking, a bank account or anything like this. So we know what KYC ends up as, and Bitcoin for the streets is kind of the antidote to that. And we started that kind of, that slogan towards the end of two thousand nineteen, \"Bitcoin is for the streets,\" in response to the growing KYC based, infrastructure not only in, Bitcoin main chain, but on Lightning and other, other various aspects. And, we just kind of felt like it was time for Bitcoin users to get back to their roots, to take a- A self-reflective, stance and, and ask themselves really is, is this thing going the right way? Yes, it's successful. Bitcoin is successful, objectively from when we all-- when, when I started in two thousand and thirteen, so when I started in two thousand and thirteen, to now, Bitcoin is more successful, there's more users, there's a higher market price, there's more services, there's more-- all of that is true, but culturally is it going in the right direction or have we just built a replacement for the existing system?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:02", "start": 362.36, "text": "Gotcha. And I think some of this discussion also, to me, reminds me of some of this kind of debate about, okay, hodling and spending and so on, and, I think- I think it's fair to say that the economics of it are driven by the hodling factor, but I, I see you as making more of a social commentary argument here around the use of Bitcoin in day-to-day spending as, as opposed to, hodling. Now, I guess, in fairness, I'm more on the kind of hodl side, but my view is more like, when you-- if you are spending, when you do so, you should use a coin join kind of spend. Sure, sure. Yeah. What's your view?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "06:40", "start": 400.31, "text": "Well, I came into, to" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "06:45", "start": 404.7, "text": "What interested me about it was the economics. You know, as a, as what I would consider an Austrian, that is kind of-- Well, it's, it's weird with Austrians, you either really hate Bitcoin or you're really into it, you know? Like, there's no-- It's a very strange thing, but, so that, that, that interested me just in general. But what really got me going, was that I needed to move money from the US to the UK, and it was very expensive to do that. there was, there wasn't TransferWise, or if it was, it was very, you know, early. So it was, you know, it was like a fifty dollar thing to, to move funds from the US to the UK, and I needed something that I could do, do that with, and Bitcoin checked all those boxes. So I came into it because I needed it from a utility standpoint, but what interested me was the economics of it all. Since that time, or shortly after that time, I have been living on Bitcoin fully. I don't make a fiat salary, I make a Bitcoin salary, and, that's Change the way that I, I think about Bitcoin from more, from less of a theoretical economics, economist point of view to more of a u-u-utility point of view because I use this on the streets every single day. You know, if I'm unable to convert BTC into, into some sort of currency that most people will accept, whether that be, fiat in the form of banknotes or fiat in the form of a gift card or something like that, then I have a real serious issue. And, and that's really what, where Samurai Wallet kind of started and came from was that my, my co-founder and I, both living on bit- Bitcoin, both earning in Bitcoin, both requiring, Bitcoin to work for us in order to, to pay our rent and to eat food and to do all this sort of stuff that you need to do to live." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "08:32", "start": 512.1, "text": "We didn't feel like there was a wallet out there that satisfied any of those, those conditions for those types of users. And even if that was such a small niche of users, we felt like, well, we should, we should make the software for them, and that's, that's where Samurai came in Has kind of come from." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:47", "start": 527.23, "text": "Yeah, it's, it's interesting because you really, you're eating your own dog food to use the software term that, in some cases you get people who make software for who they think is their customer, but then they haven't really got a clear picture if they're not using it for themselves and day to day seeing the troubles and the problems and what needs to be fixed and improved on the product or on the service. Yeah, absolutely. You have" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "09:13", "start": 552.95, "text": "to, you have to eat your own dog food. It's absolutely essential. Especially with, with Bitcoin, and we saw with, you know, two thousand fifteen, two thousand sixteen, we saw the rise of a lot of apps, a lot of services out there, or the decline of a lot of, giants, you know, who, who were titans of a very small industry, just completely crumble or, or vanish or whatever it is, or, or fade into technological irre-irrelevance. because precisely because on the product level, they stopped using their product, they had no idea what it is they're trying to do, and they kept trying to design Bitcoin for grandma or they kept trying to design Bitcoin for, you know, for these nonexistent users when Bitcoin users were right there demanding the features to make, you know, that to make it usable for them. So I s- I say it a lot in our Telegram room, and there is a large amount of truth to it, but we built Samurai for us. You're along for the ride. You know, so you don't-- you may not like our decisions, like to, for example, remove Fiat from the wallet. You may think that was a stupid choice, you may think that was a bad product move, and you're totally entitled to, to that opinion. but like I, like I just said, this is-- we, we make this product for us, so we wanna use this in the way that we wanna use it, and, if you, if you're into that and you like the product, then you're gonna really enjoy it, and then if not, then there's so many other wallets out" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:40", "start": 639.59, "text": "there. Gotcha. Yeah. And there's definitely a focus I see even as I'm in the chat room, and I see some of the focus around the use of Bitcoin in darknet markets, and it's like this idea that, Using whatever this product is, then maybe it's not practical or it's not ready yet. What's your, yeah, what's your thought on that? Well, we" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "11:04", "start": 664.01, "text": "have to ask who were the, the first group of people to implement Bitcoin in an economic and e-commerce sort of setting? It was Darknet markets. They came first. They didn't have, they didn't look at it for the economics. They didn't look at it and go, \"Oh, yeah, this is, you know, limited supply. Okay, great, yeah.\" That's not what they were in there for. They were there for the censorship resistance, they were there for the, finality, the instant finality and the fact that they didn't have to rely on a third party. to perform whatever transactions they were performing. So they came in and they accepted it before anyone else, before any of the nerds did, before anyone else. They accept because they saw real use and utility, and it solved the problem for them, and it still to this day is solving a problem for them. So if and if the darknet markets aren't taking up your technology in, in relation of cryptocurrency, your privacy coin, your, your whatever it is, your improvement to the network, whatever it is, then I think that, that deserves some reflection. You have to ask yourself, well, why? Why not? With Bitcoin, even so early, two thousand-- well, it was Silk Road was two thousand and eleven, when that started, or two thousand and twelve?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:15", "start": 735.45, "text": "I wasn't around then, so yeah, roughly then, I guess. Yeah. I" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "12:18", "start": 737.51, "text": "think it went down in two thousand and twelve or two thousand--" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:23", "start": 742.58, "text": "early two thousand and twelve In eleven or twelve. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "12:24", "start": 744.4, "text": "So, I forgot what I, the point I was making, but, two thousand eleven, right? So, so they took that risk, they implemented this, and it just worked. They didn't have to do a bunch of stuff, it just worked. So yeah, Bitcoin is- If you really try to understand it, it looks very complicated on the surface, but in fact, it's, it's, it's complicated, but i-in a, there's beauty in its simplicity. You know, you can kind of grok it from like a thousand mile view, whereas I see a lot of these other, things start popping up on, you know, side chains or, or layer two stuff or all-- a-and it, it requires a lot, lot more thought around it because they're so much more complex. And, yeah, my, there's just some beautiful simplicity to Bitcoin, I think is, is what I'm trying to get. Yeah. I think that attracted Those, you know, the darknets be- because of that, it was easy to implement and it served the purpose." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:23", "start": 803.45, "text": "Yeah, and as I understand today, darknet markets online, they primarily use Bitcoin, but there's also some use of Monero, but they're basically, they're not using Zcash in any meaningful way, they're not using any of these other cryptocurrencies, it's basically Bitcoin because it's the economic winner and potentially Monero. I've seen Monero and Bitcoin," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "13:44", "start": 824.15, "text": "yeah. I haven't seen- I, I heard that some darknet was gonna, was accepting Dash or something, which is laughable. you know, that's, that, that, that coin has KYC built in at the protocol level, you know? So it's a joke, yeah. It's a joke. Yeah. But, I, I've heard rumblings, oh, some, this darknet's gonna implement this, you know, this coin. And I think those rumblings, obviously aren't, aren't, aren't not true, but I think that they're useful for" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "14:16", "start": 855.77, "text": "value that a darknet implementing a certain coin has. There is, that, that's a big event for that coin or, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:25", "start": 864.69, "text": "I- it is interesting that, I guess the point, as you're saying, is that, you know, darknet markets aren't yet using Lightning, for example. I don't know of any, no. I don't know of any." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "14:35", "start": 875.44, "text": "yeah. You would think that Lightning would be an ideal choice for a darknet, right? 'Cause one of the, you know, you have to deal with confirmations and, and the risk of double spends and all sorts of stuff when, when you're transacting anywhere, but especially what you could classify as a Moderately risky, transaction, right? So you would think that a Lightning Network which claims to be private, which I don't know about, I don't know enough about the Lightning Network, and also you don't have the issue of double spending, you don't have the issue of waiting around for confirmations, you would think that that would be a perfect application at a retail level. Why haven't they done that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:26", "start": 925.81, "text": "Yeah, and I, I guess my thought on that is more like, maybe it's still early, maybe it's still being developed, but" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "15:31", "start": 931.17, "text": "yeah, yeah, yeah, totally early. I think it is too early, I think that's the, that's the right answer. I think it's incredibly complicated. It's not straightforward to implement, and I think anyone who's a merchant and has tried implementing Lightning to serve more than just a small group of people on Twitter, but to like actually serve a large number of consumers, they, they run into the same kind of issues, scaling issues and, and all sorts of stuff that You know, rebalancing their channels and not having enough inbound liquidity and not having enough outbound liquidity or whatever, you know, there's, there's all these things that happen, and I'm, I'm not knocking the Lightning Network because, because it's an early tech. But it certainly isn't ready, and there's so many different what-ifs that could happen, and that was my point about the simplicity of Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, the state is either spent or unspent That's it. You know, the UTXO is either existing or it's not." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:24", "start": 984.04, "text": "Yeah, so look, let's, let's go more into, you know, Samurai Wallet and the, you know, privacy implications and some of the, you know, the different products and so on. And I think it might be good to start with a high level concept, and, and I, as I understand the view from you and the team with Samurai, is that Taint doesn't exist, and it is observed only by each different participant who is, you know, either observing the blockchain or being, you know, on, you know, using the blockchain themselves. And then I, I've also heard from T Dev, the, I guess you can think of him like the CTO and co-founder of Samourai Wallet, and he, his view is, speaking about these concepts like fade and scatter and dilution. Can you tell us a little bit about that and, you know, taint in general, the Samourai Wallet position? Sure" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "17:12", "start": 1031.86, "text": "It doesn't exist. As you say, I mean, it's just a, a human thing put on top of, of a agnostic, you know, layer. It doesn't exist in Bitcoin, it doesn't exist in fiat. But it does exist because it's there, right? People can go to jail based on the history of their funds. People can be denied, you know, like I said earlier, bank accounts because they can't p-prove where their wealth has come from So, you know, the concept of Taint, it's kind of like, you know, where does the government derive its legitimacy from? Who cares? They're here, right? Like, and that's the same thing with Taint. Taint's here. So when you look at it that way, you have to play their game. And in playing their game is where we come up with concepts like Scatter and Fade. So Scatter, let's see how we can, how we can, explain Scatter. Scatter measures when you-- when you have a set of UTXOs, Scatter, measures how best to spend a UTXO so as to produce, to preserve the privacy That have been obtained prior to that transaction. So if you've mixed, if you've done, a transaction like a Stonewall or something like this, s- Scatter will determine And simulate what this spend will do to your overall transaction graph and your overall cluster. fade on the, on the opposite measures How much distance has been, applied since that, since one transaction? And, and this is actually-- This is all like kind of technical stuff and stuff that happens in the background of the wallet when the wallet decides, \"I'm gonna use this UTXO and this UTXO to compose this transaction.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:02", "start": 1141.9, "text": "Yeah, yeah, gotcha. You know what? Let's just quick, just for the-- just to keep it accessible, obviously, I know what you're, I know what you're speaking about, and I think many of my listeners do, but just for those who aren't following, Utxo means unspent transaction output, and so remember when you, when your wallet spends bitcoins, what it's really doing is it's like signing and signing certain inputs, and think of it, I guess the best analogy I've heard is like, you've got a piece of gold, I've got a hunk of gold, and then I kind of- Melt it down and recast that into little bits that I send to my participant or to the other person, and then I would receive some of that back as change. So quick example, if I've got zero point five bitcoins and I wanna spend zero point one, just high level, think of it like I'm spending zero point one to you, Samourai Wallet, and then zero point four is coming back to me. That's my change, UTXO or change output rather. And so in, you know, blockchain analysis and so on, one of the things people talk about is this. Idea of proximity to, let's say, for example, the Mt. Gox, hack, right? Which was a famous exchange in twenty thirteen, and, some of the coins associated with that will get, let's call it, flagged by a, chain analysis or chain spy company, and that, I guess bringing it back to, this concept of scatter and fade, fade in this case is kind of measuring distance from that, let's call it, the Mt. Gox address, for example's sake. Would that be a good summary? Yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "20:32", "start": 1231.99, "text": "Yeah, exactly. and, and even more than just distance from a specific address, it's more about-- So let's, let's use a concept or the example of, darknet market. Let's say I have done an illicit transaction on the darknet market that is very serious, you know, I, I bought, some sort of religious material in some theocracy, you know? I could, I could go to jail for a long time for this, this grave sin. So I want to measure And I, I did that like three weeks ago, and I noted that down, I n- on my, in my wallet, I made a note and said, \"This transaction refers to this illicit religious purchase.\" What Fade would do Is when selecting UTXOs, as you just explained what UTXO is for the wallet, selects UTXOs to make a transaction. When, when it's doing that, it will ch-select UTXOs that maximize the distance. The fade between, that illicit transaction and, and whatever transaction you're making now, and at the same time display that to the user and show them just how much fade and how much distance has been applied." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:38", "start": 1297.95, "text": "Gotcha. Right. And so for most users, you're typically, if you're just coming from a random Bitcoin wallet, you would just see your balance, but actually in the background, what your wallet is doing, think of your wallet like a keychain, and it holds the keys for lots of these little pieces of Bitcoin, as we mentioned. Those little chunks of gold or UTXOs in our model, and that's essentially what, that's one thing I like about the Samurai wallet because it actually, deals with that complexity for the user so long as you use some of the tools and the algorithms that are in place. So an example here is the Stonewall algorithm, as you mentioned. So, can you tell us a little bit about Stonewall and what you're thinking to do with that, and kind of building in that idea of, you know, the scatter and fade idea?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "22:23", "start": 1342.68, "text": "Yeah. So, Stonewall was one of our, one of our first, our first decoy features. I call it a decoy feature. And, and the idea of Stonewall was, let's create a transaction that appears to be a coin join, mathematically looks like a coin join, and you can't prove it's not a coin join But we know, and the user who made the transaction knows, it's not actually a coin join. And, and that was, I think, in, in 2015, that's one of our earliest features. It wasn't called Stonewall back then, though. And, and what that does is it introduces these transactions into the blockchain where anyone just who stumbles across them or an analyst who's looking for, for a coin join style transactions would come across these and they may mark them as, \"Oh, these are CoinJoins or, or something like this,\" but they're not, right? So, so we look at any, anything that we can do to make their information the transaction graph incorrect, their clusters contain more false positives. we look at that as a win. so, so that's, that's the idea around Stonewall, and then we've extended that now, I think it was in 2018, where we came out with something called Coopt, which is, A, a multi-person, two-person, coin joining technology. And there's two types of cahoots. One is a Stonewall X2. So this is actually a Stonewall that pretends to be a coin join, but it's actually a coin join because it's, it's two people, actually coin-uh, joining their coins together. but they can't be differentiated from a standard Stonewall. So what we've done in doing that is now any transaction that's a Stonewall, as of the date that we released Stonewall X Could be a coin join, could be a fake coin join, impossible to tell on the blockchain. So that again adds, adds a lot of doubt to the confidence of the chain analysis datasets when they're dealing with Storm more transactions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:22", "start": 1462.44, "text": "Right. And so again, just a little bit of background for the listener who might not have listened to other episodes, one of the key ways of framing or thinking about this from a chain spy or chain analysis type of person is they're looking at a certain cluster of addresses, right? So remember we were talking about UTXOs. Well, one of the ways that chain spy companies, you know, try to break that is by essentially creating Creating this, what, what we call a transaction graph, and then looking for all the linkages between that, and they might have exchange data, and then they might have an insight into, oh, okay, this is Stephan Livera, and he KYC'd with ABC Exchange, and we saw he withdrew to this address, and this is the, the trace of the transactions. And so, Stonewall is a kind of way of helping break that clustering idea. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "25:17", "start": 1517.18, "text": "So w-we've had some, some insiders at various exchanges Analysis companies who, who like what we do, and they do feed us information every once in a while, and I don't know how reliable or accurate it is, but I like to think it's probably true. When This particular company encounters a Stonewall transaction, they just put it to the side. They don't bother adding it to their cluster because they realize that they cannot with any mathematical certainty determine The input to output mappings, and if they added to their cluster, it would just increase the amount of, incorrect data, and it would increase the amount of false positives that are triggered. And look, these guys aren't, you know, they don't want false positives triggering because then their customers get mad at them. Their customers, who are the exchanges, say, \"Hey, you know, the-- all of these people who have no business getting shut down are getting shut down because your software is telling us that...\" They should be." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:11", "start": 1570.51, "text": "I, I guess the other important point to add in here is that just bare stone wall versus doing something like running through a Whirlpool CoinJoin and then doing a stone wall is where, probably more powerful tools or-- That's a more powerful combination. So can you tell us a little bit about the flow there? I know we spoke about this in the last episode, but just for the listeners who aren't familiar, that idea of, you know, running through a, a Whirlpool CoinJoin and then doing- Your stone walls." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "26:40", "start": 1599.83, "text": "Yeah, sure. So Whirlpool is our CoinJoin implementation, and when you, when you enter into Whirlpool, no matter, with what amount you enter into, you're gonna have at the, on the other end of the Whirlpool when it's done with its process, you're gonna have a bunch of like sized outputs, depending on which pool you entered. So if you entered into the zero one pool, then you'll have a bunch of outputs of zero point zero one BTC. When you go to spend those, because it's very likely that you're gonna need to spend more than an exact amount of zero point zero one BTC, your wallet will probably need to Choose multiple inputs when you're making a transaction, right? So if you're spending, point oh five BTC, then your wallet will need to select five point oh one UTXOs to make that transaction. Now, most, you know, most wallets will just immediately select those five, make the transaction, and if there's change required, send it right back to you. This is less than ideal because there is no mathematical uncertainty. There, it's a hundred percent certain that these five inputs, these five zero point zero one inputs, belong to the same entity, and they're going To this, this, this destination. And if there's a change output, then they know that this change output belongs to the original entity as well. In order for, to combat this, what we've done is put, post-mix spending tools directly in the wallet And one of those post mix spending tools is Stonewall or Stonewall X2. And the reason you would want to level up your, your, your whirlpool with a Stonewall on the way out is additional entropy or additional confusion as to, well, I know this was a coin join on back one hop, but this now, this spend, I can't, I can't figure it out. Is this-- who's the owner of these inputs? Is you, you know, and especially if it's an actual Stonewall X2, which is a, a secondary coin join with a, with a friend? You know, there's, there's really no hope at that point of tracking the inputs to outputs, and that's on the spend. So you get the whirlpool process, which is you can think of doing that Before spending, like, as a, you're preparing your wallet, right? this isn't something that you're spending to Whirlpool, that's not how it works. You're, you're transferring your funds into your Whirlpool specific area of the wallet which is segregated from the main area of your wallet, and you're preparing for the point in where you will need to spend so that when you do go to spend You're not sacrificing a huge amount of your privacy to do so." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:24", "start": 1764.48, "text": "I think another way to think about this, if you are a merchant or if you are receiving a lot of imports, like because you're, you're getting paid, you have to also remember that one of the ways that Chainalysis and other related companies like CipherTrace and Cipherblade and a few of these other ones, Elliptic, what, one thing they can do is try and s-- if they know that's your address, they can send you one little piece of Bitcoin and then see where it goes afterwards and then try and- To understand, oh, okay, this is where it's gone and connected through to this guy's cold storage or outwards afterwards. But then that one way to think about that now is if you first run that through Whirlpool, then you are Kind of breaking the link there. You're definitely breaking the link, yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "30:07", "start": 1806.72, "text": "There's nowhere to, to go from there. So years ago, we implemented something called, oh gosh, what's it called? the dust alerts. Right? So then this, this is to combat the exact scenario that you just mentioned, where if you have a known address, a, an analysis company could send you a very small amount of Bitcoin there. So maybe it's an address you shared on Twitter or it's an address, you know, whatever, and follow the flow of those funds. back in, back then, most wallets just didn't show you anything to do with UTXOs at all, so you had no idea, really. That, that would follow you around throughout your transaction's history, and that's in Samourai Wallet where the feature \"Do Not Spend\" came from. right now it's being used mostly as like a reverse coin control feature, but that really came from the ability to say, \"Hey, dust has entered your wallet, this might be a way to track you.\" Would you like to mark this as \"Do Not Spend\"? And," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:05", "start": 1865.07, "text": "that's where it came from. That's where, yeah, yeah," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "31:06", "start": 1866.27, "text": "that's where it came from." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:08", "start": 1867.53, "text": "And I think while we're on this topic of \"Do Not Spend,\" we should probably also touch on \"Toxic Change.\" So, again, for the background for the listeners, when you do a Samourai Wallet, Whirlpool, what actually is happening first is you need to do a TX zero. That TX zero, so let's make an example. Let's say we're going in the point o One pool, and I've got something like point oh five five or whatever, right? Like a sm- just a little bit over point oh five, right? And then I do my TX zero, and that cuts that down into five point oh one pieces, just a little bit more to account for mining fee and so on, and then part of the fee goes to Samourai Wallet as well, and then- There's a, there'll be a little hunk of change, a little piece of change that comes back into my main wallet. That is very, from a, analysis point of view, that's known as like toxic change. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how to manage that? That was a excellent" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "32:05", "start": 1924.97, "text": "description, of what toxic change is and It's a very hard problem to deal with, right? The, the toxic change, and we've, we've done our best, and I think we've done a good job of making sure that that toxic change, which is a reality in, of Bitcoin, you can't, the UTXO model, you can't get around it. We've made, we've made sure that that toxic change, at the very least, is completely separated from the actual mixing that occurs after the TX zero. it goes back to your main, account in your Samourai Wallet, your main wallet view. But you're absolutely right, even, even keeping it out of the main mix and putting it segregated, it's still, there's still a risk there, and the risk is that you will use that change In another transaction, that let's say, let's pretend you're now sending to, some sort of KYC service, you would use that change as part of the transaction that you're making to this KYC service, thereby linking that this particular TX zero Belongs to this KYC identity. Now, your threat model, that might not worry you so much because you're not particularly worried that whatever Coinbase is going to shut you down, you shouldn't be, but you're not, and that might not bother you, but I think that it's It's something that normally users shouldn't really have to worry about, but the reality of Bitcoin is that they do have to worry about that right now. we're doing a lot though on this in, in, in following updates. So we're, right, we're working right now on a, a big update to Samurai Wallet which includes mobile mixing. And as part of one of the updates that come shortly after that, we'll be introducing something called Bad Bank. And what Bad Bank is, is a complete, another completely separate area of your wallet. Now, it's still part of your wallet with your twelve words and your passphrase, you can still restore the Bad Bank. It's, you know, it's not custody or anything like that, you're in control at all times, but it's just a separate derivation of your wallet to keep all of these, these things that could really trip you up Away from your primary balance and away from your whirlpool balance. So you have kind of three different areas within your wallet. And one of the really cool things about the toxic change, the TX zero change, is that it actually becomes really useful to use for, certain types of transactions. 'Cause the assumptions are that HTX0 belongs to this one entity, therefore that You know, you would make the assumption that if you had a transaction with the change outputs of two TX zeros, those would be the same entity in one transaction, right? But that you can't necessarily say that because of transactions like Stowaway. Gotcha. And what's a Stowaway? So Stowaway is- we released this at the same time that we released Stonewall X2. It's a type of cahoots transaction because it's, it's a peer-to-peer coinjoin between two participants. it's also known in the industry as a payjoin or as a pay-to-endpoint. We introduced it as Stowaway. So a Stowaway is, is a really cool transaction because it looks, on the surface, if you look at it on the blockchain, it looks like a simple transaction. A simple transaction, what we refer to as a simple transaction is, is, Two outputs." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:50", "start": 2150.4, "text": "Right. Like two inputs, two outputs. Yeah, the," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "35:52", "start": 2152.32, "text": "the number of inputs can be many. It can be hundreds of inputs, but two outputs. And output one or output, output zero could be the destination, and the second output would be the change back That's the assumption that the typical assumption for a normal transaction, for a simple transaction like that where you have two outputs, it's generally accepted or mo-- by most that that's likely to be destination and change. Right? And then a- and then all the inputs must belong to one person or one entity. so if you, if you're a chain analysis company, and that's your assumption You're in for a real treat because with Stowaway, we create simple transactions, but on the input side, those are two participants, those are two separate entities. So if you're using your TX zero change, in particular on these Stowaways You have TX zero from user one and TX zero from user two, and then stowaway destination. the cluster is completely wrong and completely broken, and what ends up happening is all samurai wallet users start to generate this giant cluster, and it's Kinda cool because you can imagine these people, these chain analysis companies, encountering this cluster and being like, \"What do we do with this? How do we deal with this?\" Because we know That we cannot make any assumptions about the composition of these transactions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:24", "start": 2244.13, "text": "I see, yeah. So essentially they have to either cluster you all together, and then the problem is if ever-- if, if there are enough people doing stowaways with each other, then it just becomes too difficult to actually sort of piece that together. And you can't-- But you can't" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "37:38", "start": 2257.56, "text": "tell. You wouldn't be able to know. Be- since we released Oweaway, since the day we released Oweaway, that has meant that any transaction on the blockchain that's a simple, that has one input or has two outputs," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:50", "start": 2270.24, "text": "that could be a stowaway. Let's, I guess, firstly let's just summarize that. So the StoneWall is the one where you're using the algorithm and it's just you. StoneWall X2 is the one where, let's say, you and I are doing a transaction together to spend to somebody else. Yep. And then the Stowaway is a transaction between two Samurai Wallet users. Between two users, right? so I wanna" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "38:10", "start": 2290.01, "text": "send you Bitcoin, I would do a Stowaway with you, to, with you and to you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:16", "start": 2295.92, "text": "Gotcha. Yep. I guess the only part though is, and this comes up, we might get, we might, maybe we'll go into, we might as well go into it now. So wallet fingerprinting, right? So this is something where even if you are- from a network perspective, you, you know, you use Tor and so on, and even, again, let's be clear, Tor isn't a silver bullet, but let's say you use Tor and you'll find from a network perspective, let's say you used CoinJoin techniques and you'll find from a transaction graph perspective, another way by which you can be fingerprinted is certain, ways that a wallet crafts a transaction, and some examples here would be the unlock time and sequence number and RBF signaling, RBF replaced by fee. So can you tell us a little bit of your On wallet fingerprinting." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "39:02", "start": 2341.93, "text": "yeah, no, that-- I mean, that's absolutely right. Bitcoin Core has a fingerprint within lock time, plus one, I believe it is what it is. various wallets have fingerprints based on the way they order, outputs in a transaction. very, very early on, two thousand fifteen, I believe, Christophe Atlas, who's a security researcher in Bitcoin, created, BIP sixty-nine, I wanna say. which is a bip that makes the sorting of, inputs and outputs deterministic. so that is a way to try to combat the fingerprinting of wallet software based solely on the way they sort that they order the outputs, right? Exactly. because at, at one point you would have something like, I think Blockchain Dot Info, they always put the destination as the first, you know, the first, output. Yeah, there, you, you really can't get around it, there is gonna be fingerprinting. One thing that we've talked about at Samurai, we don't identify this as a huge problem first of all, for us to solve, but we have talked about it. And one of the things we could do is, is have like, profiles in the wallet, say, \"Hey, I want the wallet to emulate a Bitcoin Core, wallet now,\" or \"I want it to emulate, an Electrum wallet now,\" and whatever we can determine as Bitcoin Core fingerprint, which is And you can kind of bluff as that one. Yeah, you could do that, you know, and then, you know, I mean, who cares if you're using Elektra or Wasabi or, or Bitcoin Core or something like, that's not a huge attack vector. It's one, it's, it's a string to pull on for sure, but it's not like the main thing. In your example, the user, I think, is pretty, pretty well covered. If they're running their own, node and they're going through Tor and they're doing the, that, all that sort of stuff, I think they, they'll be okay." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:52", "start": 2452.22, "text": "Gotcha." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "40:53", "start": 2452.66, "text": "They have bigger, much bigger issues with coin selection and post-mix spending and stuff like that than to worry about wallet fingerprinting, I think." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:00", "start": 2460.18, "text": "Gotcha. a-and another topic I'm keen to touch on is coin selection. So obviously stonewall is a big factor inside of that. and To, you know, your wallet, remember, your wallet is a keychain and it's got lots of different pieces of Bitcoin, and then coin selection relates to which of those pieces does it choose to spend. And so, Samourai Wallet you mentioned, the Stonewall, which is like an algorithm that you can sort of cleverly merge different UTXOs in such a way that you're keeping track of things like scatter and fade and so on. And, you mentioned, you've got another- Coin selection algorithm coming called Solomon. So, can you talk about that?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "41:44", "start": 2504.09, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So, like I said, Stowaway, it was very, very early, innovation at Samourai, and it's still, it's still re-uh, rather rudimentary, right? you-- it doesn't remember. Past activity. When you do a stone wall today, it's blind to the past, right? So a lot of stuff gets ha- gets selected UTXOs, say, \"Oh, this one and this one make a-- there's no combination, that these are connected, therefore I'll select these two, and then it will go forward.\" But it doesn't, other than not using UTXOs that have been seen together in the past, right? An input merge. Yeah, an input merge. Besides doing that, which I think is just a basic thing that all wallets It's not that smart, if you understand what I mean. Solomon is the name of our, upcoming UTXO selection algorithm that covers Stonewall, that covers Stowaway, and that covers, some other types of transactions that we have coming down the line. so it's an, it's a more encompassing- algorithm. and that's just the result of many years of development of these different algorithms finally converging to a point where, where it makes sense to, to replace these different algorithms with one overarching one. Sorry, I keep moving the mic." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:05", "start": 2584.61, "text": "Yeah, that's cool." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "43:06", "start": 2585.69, "text": "with one overarching one to To tie everything together, you know, so, so Solomon will remember," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "43:14", "start": 2594.44, "text": "a transaction that you've noted down, and Solomon will keep track of how much fade has, has been achieved, since you noted that transaction down. In relation to where you are today, and it will make intelligent choices, on UTXO selection to maximize the, scatter and fade of the transaction." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:37", "start": 2617.0, "text": "Yeah, and I, I like that approach as well, because it means the user has to do less thinking about their own UTXO set. And if we want, you know, Bitcoin to be a v-- a tool that is available to people who aren't necessarily hardcore Bitcoin enthusiasts, like, say, you and I are, or, you know, many, many of my listeners, let's be honest. it needs to be able to be used without such, conscientious decision making about every single transaction. And if you can use an algorithm to sort of help make smarter decisions for you, then that's a, a good step in my, in my view. Oh yeah, the algorithm will be able to do it way better than you will. Right. Even if you were, even if you were Laurent MT or something like that. Well, exactly. Like," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "44:17", "start": 2657.41, "text": "the algorithm is Laurent MT distilled into an algorithm. You know, like, it's even better than Laurent. You know, like, it's, it's great. And it's a very good, selection algorithm. And you'll get into trouble trying to do this, manage this all yourself. Doesn't matter who you are, you will make mistakes. You know, if you're trying, if you're, if your strategy relies on note-taking, like labeling each transaction that you make, it's not sustainable. You know, it's good for us But it's not a long term solution. And that's, it's not a grandma argument I'm making, 'cause I really hate the Bitcoin for grandmas argument. Not making that argument at all. what I'm-- I want hardcore users. But I don't think they have to be hardcore nerds. I want them to be hardcore about privacy, I want them to be hardcore about sovereignty, I want them to be hardcore about censorship resistance. I don't need them, I don't want them to have to You know, understand the complexities of UTXO management." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:14", "start": 2714.48, "text": "One other point with CoinJoin or Stowaway, are there any Thoughts or ideas you have on making that work across wallets, or for example, if BTC Pay Server were to have a payjoin way of, the merchant offering the user some way of doing a payjoin as a payment?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "45:35", "start": 2735.36, "text": "yes, I think that's, that's more of the idea around pay to, pay to endpoint, right? Because you're, you're paying to the endpoint as, as opposed to Stowaway, which is really about peer to peer. It's about two users interacting with each other as opposed to a user and, entity, you know, merchant or something like that. I don't see merchants really taking that up. I don't see that as something merchants would be all that interested in doing. Maybe dark net merchants, but, you're more, you know, A pay join service." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:05", "start": 2765.47, "text": "But I, I am hearing actually that some of the BTC pay server guys are interested in the idea of having pay join built into BTC pay. Oh yeah, no, I," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "46:12", "start": 2771.59, "text": "I'm sure they are, and I, I think that would be, that would be cool. You know, I'm not, not opposed to it. I'm looking at it from a product perspective, if- BTC Pay server is targeting hobbyist Bitcoin users like us, or, you know, yeah, really, that's about it. Then yeah, that would be something cool that people would like, but at that point, you're just doing pay-to-peer-to-peer. You're not actually doing anything with the merchant, you're just doing it peer to peer, and instead of you using Samourai, you're using BTC Pay Server as your client. Okay, that's cool. But look at, an, a big merchant who uses BTC Pay Server is, cheapair dot com. Do you think they're gonna offer pay join services to, when you buy, you know, an airline ticket? I doubt it. Why would they?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:01", "start": 2820.65, "text": "Yeah, so potentially, potentially you're right. I, I don't know. Maybe, maybe they would. It, it depends on, I guess, can you imagine the risk department? Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah, if, if it really depends what way the prevailing winds are blowing on like, oh, is that, oh, you're helping" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "47:16", "start": 2835.56, "text": "these," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:18", "start": 2837.76, "text": "you know, dirty- Well, yeah, but A checkbox, or if it was, you know, just on by default. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "47:25", "start": 2844.86, "text": "yeah. More privacy is better, you know, so I'm, I'm definitely not saying they shouldn't do this or it's a waste of time. Pay-to-endpoint, Pay-join, Stowaway, it's really, really cool. The type of transaction that that creates is so powerful because it looks so innocent and there's no way of detecting it, and it completely breaks- The data set of, of whoever includes it within their cluster. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:52", "start": 2872.39, "text": "however you get there, doesn't matter to me. Right. And so I guess we can take it then that, you know, if were that to occur, then Samourai Wallet would offer a way to pay and pay join with that. yeah, they should contact us, you know, we have a working" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "48:07", "start": 2886.86, "text": "implementation" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:08", "start": 2887.64, "text": "of Stowaway. Yeah, there's only, well, that's the thing, right? There's, I mean, we talk about some of these ideas, but right now, there are, as Of payjoin, it's join market to join market, and even then, that's like a CLI thing, and stowaway between two samurai wallets. And so right now, there's no way for you to payjoin with somebody with a different wallet type to your own, and that's, to me, that's very limiting. Oh, absolutely," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "48:34", "start": 2914.12, "text": "yeah, no, absolutely is. But it's still very early tech, you know? it's still very, very early tech, and you're gonna have these sort of compatibility issues until you don't. I, I, I Join market guys, I talked to Belcher and, and Gibson, and I said, \"What can we do to, you know, where can we meet in the middle to, and make some changes to both of our implementations so that they work together?\" And I think that makes the most sense, you know, but- I think it's, it, it, it would be very rich for someone who hasn't implemented this tech to expect us to change our implementation to fit with theirs. So I think that if some developer is interested in implementing this type of technology, they should reach out to the existing stakeholders of the technology, so that would be Join Market and that would be Samurai, and that person would maybe even be the person to act as The, the one who bridges the three or the, you know, the, all the services together and says, \"Hey, hey, what can we do so that Samourai and Joy Market and Service X all work together?\" So, and I think that will happen naturally just as time progresses. we need proof to the market right now that this is in demand." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:49", "start": 2988.54, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "49:49", "start": 2989.24, "text": "that's, that's the only way to do it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:51", "start": 2991.21, "text": "Yeah, so users get out there and start doing some stowaways, and if they were, we wouldn't know. Remember that? We don't know. We" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "49:58", "start": 2998.45, "text": "don't-- Well, first of all, it's not a premium feature, we don't charge for it or anything like that, so, we don't have a way to keep track of how many people are doing stowaways or how many people are doing stone walls or anything like that. All you could do with stone walls," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:19", "start": 3019.38, "text": "Yeah, great point. And, I guess one thing I'll just add here as well is that, Chris Belcher and I think Adam Gibson has mentioned similar, that it, they've both mentioned as well that it doesn't take many CoinJoin transactions to start really screwing up blockchain analysis across the whole of Bitcoin, so to speak. Yes." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "50:37", "start": 3036.82, "text": "Yeah. Since, I don't remember, we, we released it so close together, I don't remember who released it first or whatever or when it was the exact date, but whoever it was on that date changed the game Because after that date, you can't look at a transaction on the blockchain and know, a simple transaction on the blockchain and know for certainty that this is a single participant and this is the destination and the change. You can't know that anymore for every single transaction that's occurred, because there is no fingerprint on a stowaway. It looks like all the other transactions or on a coinjoin. So thereby, every other transaction on the network gets this cloak of protection." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:19", "start": 3079.19, "text": "Right. Yeah. And that's, I think, Adam Gibson, has mentioned that as a steganographic technique. Exactly. That's the term he uses for that. Exactly." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "51:28", "start": 3088.4, "text": "And that's, stowaway, coinjoin, pay-to-endpoint, it's a stegan, steganographic tool. That's a type of transaction it is. So you have decoy transactions, you have distance transactions like Ricochet, you have the pure mathematical transaction Transactions like coin, like Whirlpool, which is just brute force mathematics and, and combinations. You know, this is ten thousand combinations to get to this result, and that, that's pretty good. We'll, we'll go with that, you know? Yeah. And then you have, the stone wall, like I said, which is a decoy type of transaction." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:02", "start": 3121.94, "text": "Also, so recently there's been this whole debacle around, Wasabi Wallet getting flagged, right? So essentially some users, and I, so the two recent examples, which- Which I, as I understand, to my knowledge, are the third and fourth cases that I know of. so there was, I can't remember the exact username, but it's something like Katzelottel, you know, from Binance Singapore, yeah, yeah. And then the other guy was Ronald McHoddle, which, I know it sounds silly, but these are their Twitter names, right? And so Ronald McHoddle was withdrawing from Paxos, and so Pa-- and so there's, it's kind of sparked up this whole debate about Basically, how easy is it to flag CoinJoin transactions? And, I think-- I mean, my perspective on it was, look, these are like an unforced error. Wasabi shouldn't have had a fixed fee address, and in fairness to Wasabi, they are now changing that, that after like a lot of debate and a lot of time, on this topic. It doesn't matter now, though." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "53:02", "start": 3182.18, "text": "Yeah. And so the, the impact has already been made. There's no going back from the years of, or more than a year of- Of address reuse is tied into the architecture of the mixes now. So it's very good that they finally changed that, but it's, it's not that really" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:20", "start": 3199.97, "text": "isn't gonna do all that much. Right. And I guess the next point then, and so again, this is, it comes back to that question again, proximity versus, you know, to the Wasabi fee address versus fingerprint, right? And so fingerprint is like, so there was this kind of debate about could a blockchain analysis person from the outside identify, oh, look, that looks like a coin join because I can see there's, you know, and so then there was this debate around, there was no debate," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "53:47", "start": 3227.48, "text": "there was a, a, a, an attempt to shift what happened and make a what if. Well, what if it was this thing that we know everyone knows? All CoinJoin transactions, well, almost all, not stowaways, all CoinJoin transactions can be fingerprinted. Yeah, we know that. Everyone knows that. There's no one ever argued that that wasn't the case. So this debate was a tactic to get people talking about something different than, \"Hey, Wasabi has had this fixed fee address since the beginning and have been...\" combative to anyone who has suggested that they change that. Only until this year, only until what, last week or something? Yeah, very recently. So, you know, there was no debate. It was obviously proximity, has nothing" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:36", "start": 3276.02, "text": "to do with fingerprint. And I think, the email that Katzelodl shared with some people, and I think he might have even tweeted this publicly, indicated that as well, because it was talking about the-- it was like the compli-- the email from the compliance department of Binance Singapore said something like, \"Oh, you, you know, this address, right?\" And so that w-- it was very clear. Anyway, I think that aside, the broader point is more like There's a cat and mouse game here. Yes. And it's gonna continually be occurring, right? So eventually it will probably get to the point where some exchanges or some chain spy companies will start flagging a transaction and flagging a customer merely for the- Use of, you know, withdrawing from an exchange and then running through any type of coinjoin because they, they could code their software and their tools to identify that and flag that behavior." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "55:29", "start": 3328.92, "text": "yeah, no, no, it's totally feasible that they, they could do that. the processing required to scan every tr-incoming transaction or outgoing transaction and even performing one hop of history on it is quite a bit, it's quite a lot of processing, especially if you're a finance who are doing so many trades a day. so I don't think that's realistic. is it possible? Yes. could they build that system? Yes. Would it be worth the investment? Probably not. It's like anything else, these, these companies are regulated, they have no choice in the matter, they have to follow these certain regulations. They're not looking, unless you're a real established player, you're not looking to, create harder, more difficult regulations for yourself, right? If you're like a Coinbase size, you might be doing that now to try to prevent com-competition entering this space, right? I think what exchanges will do is take the approach where it requires the least amount of investment and the least amount of work on their parts, and what that entails is contracting with a third party service like Chainalysis or Elliptic or Crystal or one of the Hundreds of these, these places, and relying on their tools and their risk assessment scores and their analysis, and these guys aren't doing that. They're not scanning one hot back for everyone, because that's just crazy. So how do you deal with it? Like I said, we have tools, which are called distance tools, and that's about literally building distance. It's brute force distance between point A and point B. Can the exchanges look back? And figure out that you did this? Of course they can. The blockchain is a public ledger, you can look back through anything and figure it out. Have we ever got a report that a RICOchet user has been flagged for using RICOchet? No, not in the entire time RICOchet's been, been around, because These exchanges aren't doing that. You know, they're really going for a minimum, minimum approach to this. The lowest hanging fruit. Yeah, the lowest hanging fruit. And in the case of Wasabi, it's like your, your mixes are connected to one of the largest scams and Ponzi schemes in crypto history. It's enormous. And there isn't even one hop of separation between your mixed UTXOs and this, this, this plus token. There's not even a hop. You're in that transaction together. So that's the lowest hanging fruit, that's what they're gonna go for. So that has nothing to do with fingerprinting. No one's fingerprinting Wasabi transactions. You don't really even have to, they're so obvious, right? It's, so it's not about that, it's absolutely proximity, and it's absolutely," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "58:25", "start": 3505.08, "text": "A distance thing, yeah. And the tools that we've, we're, we're building around, include distance, but also include, make it again so that if an analysis company Encounters a samurai transaction, encounters a stonewall, encounters, a, a stonewall or a whirlpool. It just is easier to put it to the side and deal with it later. Otherwise, it's gonna pollute our current transaction graph, which in the state of Bitcoin wallets in 2020 is pathetic, right? Privacy is isn't not even a second or third rate feature, it's way down there for most wallets out there, right? So they have a great transaction, they, they have pretty good certainty as to who owns inputs and outputs, not, not identity, but which inputs Go to which are linked, right? Right. They have very good, graphs of that. Adding samurai stuff into that mix would just make it a mess. Their" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:29", "start": 3568.73, "text": "confidence" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "59:29", "start": 3569.2, "text": "goes from ninety to, you know," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:31", "start": 3571.04, "text": "eighty to seventy, and that's a big drop. Yeah, and I guess it comes down to like, could they present that in court or, you know, would it be good enough for that? And probably not, because the assumption, the probability that this is an accurate view of what's actually going on inside of all of that, yeah, well, and that's a, it's a" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "59:47", "start": 3587.15, "text": "really, really good point. Like, would that hold up in court? Because at the end of the day- This is all, like I said, based on math. This is all based on probabilities. So we could mathematically prove that the probability that this input is connected to this output is like thirteen percent. Is that, does that meet the standard of, of proof? Or, you know, where, where is that lie? And that's gonna be, I mean, that's gonna be something that's going to happen eventually. The court system will encounter that, and there will be a decision based on that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:19", "start": 3619.79, "text": "Right. And so this also comes to this question of deterministic links versus probabilistic links, and, you know, just kind of, just no, no, no real linkability, let's call it. and so I think some of this also flows from the CoinJoin Sudoku sort of analysis, and also, like related is this, subset sum analysis idea, and it's just like this idea that you can sort of, if you're looking at the inputs and the outputs, and, you know- Could you, which one could have paid which output? And, a-and this is what, kycp dot org is trying to get at. So can you tell us a little bit about your views there on deterministic links and avoiding those in your mixer and in your general day-to-day transaction behavior?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:01:06", "start": 3666.82, "text": "Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. so, so Kycp, you mentioned, is a, it's a web service built on top of, Boltzmann, which is, you can kind of consider Boltzmann the predecessor to, Solomon. Okay. And what Boltzmann-- what Boltzmann does is it looks at a transaction that, you've either broadcast or you want to broadcast And it scores it based on the linkability, deterministic linkability between input to output. And a deterministic link is a hundred percent linkability, so there's no question about it, there's no other way that this input, the mappings of this input to this output, so it's connected. what we try to do with Samurai, with Stonewall is By adding more inputs and outputs and necessary, and by including like amount, sizes on the output side What that does is mathematically make it impossible or very difficult to say with a hundred percent certainty that these inputs connect to these outputs. So there might, you might have a certainty of thirty-three percent, you might have a certainty of, of even less, and that's where the score of entropy comes from. so when you, when you, when you In the Samurai Wallet, when you're able to enable Stonewall, it will tell you, \"Oh, this Stonewall has like three bits of entropy,\" or \"This Stonewall has one point five bits of entropy,\" which is like the lowest amount of entropy a Stonewall can have. and all that means is the number of combinations between inputs and outputs is higher or lower. That's all. So a three-bit, entropy transaction means that the, the probabilities that you're able to link a sp-a specific input to a specific output of that transaction, is, is very low. I don't, I don't remember what the exact, probability is for that, but KYC-P will show you the probabilities. So if you pop your transaction in there it will tell you input zero is connected to input one at a rate of, you know, twenty-five percent if you're using Samourai or, you know, a hundred percent if you're using just a standard wallet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:03:22", "start": 3802.27, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And so, Just for listeners who aren't familiar or if you have never used Samourai Wallet, the recommendation is, as we mentioned before, when you come out of the Whirlpool mix, that you should, you know, you should use a StoneWall spend as a minimum level, and, you'll see that little toggle when you go to spend of, you know, yes, my wallet can construct a StoneWall, or no, it can't because you're, you're trying to spend too much or your UTXO set isn't, let's say, compatible or doesn't have the make that, yeah, transaction, or the inputs haven't seen together or something. Yeah, that's right, because it" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:04:01", "start": 3841.12, "text": "could be, you, there's so many rules, you might be doing an input" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04:03", "start": 3843.36, "text": "merge and so on. I think there is a, a gist where I think T Dev has written out the exact activation conditions for a stone wall for those more technical users who are interested. Yeah. And even" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:04:14", "start": 3854.74, "text": "that's now kind of out of date with Solomon coming out, so we, we will have better documentation than a gist for, for that, but, but, Overall, that's, that's kind of the idea. Like if you don't have enough, UTXOs in your, in your wallet, you won't be able to create a, a stone wall just because you can't do it. Right now in the wallet, there's not a lot of user feedback. The user doesn't really get told why they can't. Compose a Stonewall, that's something we could do better on, you know, and giving the user more indication saying, \"Hey, if you do this, this, and this, you might be able to compose a Stonewall,\" you know, that sort of thing, just a little bit of help." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04:50", "start": 3890.15, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04:58", "start": 3898.18, "text": "I don't know, let's say one million sats in my PseMIX wallet, let's say, and, typically, as you've mentioned before, you, you usually need to spend a little bit less than half Of your, balance, but again, depends on what UTXOs you've got and so on. So it, it kind of, even that is, y-yeah, it's not an easy science." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:05:20", "start": 3920.13, "text": "yeah. So Let's talk a little bit about running Dojo. So for listeners who aren't familiar, Dojo is like running your own little server. You're running, you're running your own server and you're checking your own balances, whereas most Bitcoin wallets will check against a central server or they will just query out to the SPV, you know, the broader Bitcoin network. So on the topic of Dojo, we've seen now more and more people are using Dojo, so can you tell us a little bit about, yeah? The current development on Dojo, where you see that going? Yeah, sure." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:05:55", "start": 3955.26, "text": "so Dojo, I think we're at version one point four, one point five now. I know that one, we have a version that's ready for release any day now, so I don't, I don't remember which one. and that's, it's such a great project because we run Dojo at Samurai Wallet. So if you, if you just get Samurai Wallet from the Play Store and install it, you're using our instance of Dojo. That's what it's being powered by. And nothing stops you from going, actually, I wanna run my own copy of that. So it's such a powerful server, and it's such a powerful, piece of software that, I mean, it powers all of our users without a hiccup, and it's definitely gonna power, you know, your two or three wallets that you register onto it on your Raspberry Pi, right? And it'll do a real, real smooth job of it. so I think what we wanna do with Dojo is, is have it be The home base, the platform for our users, who, who choose to, to go down that route, and we want it to be as easy as possible for users to choose to go down that route. We don't feel, we don't think that every user needs to do that. There's just gonna be some that don't want to, that don't wanna have the hassle of managing a node and the hassle of having to do updates and security stuff, and they just don't, they don't want to, and they have, you know, they're fine trusting Samourai not to lie to them. Which is what it comes down to is Samourai could lie to you. Samourai could say you have a million satoshis, but you don't, right? If, if you don't run your own node, that is the risk and that's not a concern for everyone, but for every-- for those who it is a concern for, we have the software for you, and that's Dojo. So it's been mostly, I would say, ninety percent of Dojo has been community Pushed. Yeah, we put out the software, we released it, and have kinda stepped back and just said, \"You guys, make this a thing,\" 'cause we don't have the resources to support it. We don't have the resources to, to, you know, run, technical support and stuff on that, on that product. We're, we're barely doing it en-enough with, Samourai Wallet. so you got guys like, BTC Zelco, Gera, Moneta, and, and just the crazy K, the whole crew of the Ronin Dojo guys. They've taken what we've done in Dojo, they've forked it, but not changed the pro-- project, just added on top of it, and they've made it extremely user friendly, extremely user friendly to run on a Raspberry Pi. They've-- now they have it, so like even if you have Windows, you can, you can kinda get, you can get it running, like they're, they're all about Opening up access to this product and to this ecosystem, making it just as accessible to anyone." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:08:37", "start": 4117.76, "text": "Yeah, I'm a big fan of, Ronin Dojo, as, listeners might know, I run one myself, and I use the Ronin Dojo variant or specific one. And so, big shout out to Zelco and Gura Maneta for that, and Crazy K for some of the documentation and helping users with it. I do recommend, that's, that's a good way to, use it. And I think Another cool thing is you can run one for your family, right? So you, you don't necessarily have to have everyone in the family able to use command line and set up a run and dojo. You can have just one person set it up, and then the other people in the family can just pair their samurai wallet on their phone with the dojo on their raspberry pi" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:09:18", "start": 4158.21, "text": "or, etcetera. Exactly. And that, and that kind of solves for that use case of person who doesn't wanna deal with the security updates, doesn't wanna deal with running, having to run their own node. If" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:09:31", "start": 4171.26, "text": "Who will run a node for them? Then the experience for them is no different really than installing Samourai from the Play Store and running it, right? Like, but all they have to do is scan a QR code and then they're connected to, you know, their son's node or whatever." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:09:45", "start": 4185.03, "text": "Right. Yeah. Or, I think, the Tales from the Crypt guys referred to this as the Uncle Jim's node, right? The Uncle Jim runs the node for the family and, you know, so if you need, we need an Uncle Jim in every family, so definitely" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:10:01", "start": 4201.62, "text": "I, I guess we've also got to talk about the impact of Dojo use on Whirlpool, right? So this is that whole thing around, okay, how many, what percentage of Whirlpool users doing CoinJoins are using Dojo, using their own node? And so I guess the-- Let me just kind of summarize the concern from the community so you can sort of speak to it. One of the concerns from the-- that you see on Bitcoin Twitter and elsewhere is this idea that, oh no, if not enough people are using Dojo and it goes mainstream-- With mobile mixing, then some of those users might theoretically be doxing their mixed addresses to the Samurai central server. Now that's the, the, concern. It's around, it, it also- Sort of, yeah, I guess it, it also ties into how many people are using Dojo. Now, I haven't seen the latest statistics, but as I understand, it's like, it's like over sixty percent. Yeah. It's been over sixty" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:10:57", "start": 4257.01, "text": "percent for the last few weeks now, right? And, it, it hovers between sixty to sixty-two percent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:11:02", "start": 4262.75, "text": "Yeah. And so- Even taking that number as it is right now, that already is above the threshold. As I understand, you need, I think it's two Dojo users in every mix or something like that, and then beyond that, you don't actually have to trust, the Samourai Wallet. I saw, I saw" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:11:17", "start": 4277.29, "text": "someone came up with that figure, of what you need. I, I didn't verify it myself. To me, the whole thing is concern trolling. So I'm not concerned about that. we have Dojo, it's out there, use it. If you're concerned about us knowing your xPubs or anything like that, then use Dojo, it's fine. And, you know, regarding the, the, regarding Whirlpool, we have never- Ever design this system where we're the adversary, right? The adversary is chain analysis companies using public blockchain data Okay. So in this threat model where we are the adversary, what we have is, knowledge about chain or off-chain data, right? We know what you don't know just by looking at the chain. We know more than you. Because you don't know if you-- by looking at a whirlpool transaction, which users are dojo users and which users aren't, you have no idea. So really, you have to trust that the sixty percent that I'm saying is even true. Right? So this whole thing is just, to me, it was, again, a way of changing the conversation, putting the conversation somewhere else to say, \"Okay, yeah, you released Dojo, but it's not enough.\" Now you, no one's gonna run it. You need all these people to run it to make it worthwhile. I'm just like, okay. I, I'm less and less concerned with, with the, the Twitter guys who have never built anything, who have never deployed anything, who just sit and have an opinion about stuff that is just completely uninformed, you know? So I, I don't really worry about that at this point, because I know the software we're building is actually having an immediate impact on the users who it was meant for. The users who we built this software for are using it. The users are using Whirlpool, and they are using Stone Walls, and they're using Ricochet. They're doing, they're using it all. They're using everything the way it was designed, and that's as an entire platform, an entire ecosystem. So the, the rumblings on crypto Twitter or whatever really don't concern." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:13:25", "start": 4405.45, "text": "Yep. Yep. Yeah. And, I mean, speaking from my perspective, as in, you know, like an interested observer, and, you know, again, I'm a fan of Samourai Wallet. I- See it like, to me, it seems like the goalposts are just ever shifting. Always sort of just like, \"Uh, oh yeah, you did this thing, but now, now this is the new goalpost, and if you're not meeting this goalpost, then like, you're just not good enough.\" And it's like, I don't know, like we're, we're in this open source environment, and ultimately, you can either build something yourself, or you can pay someone to develop something that you like, or you just put up, put up with it, like it's," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:14:05", "start": 4445.92, "text": "I, I don't know, to me it seems a little bit like everyone's trying to dictate everyone else's product roadmap or plan. Yeah, yeah. And to me, that's a very Twitter" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:14:14", "start": 4454.65, "text": "thing, you know, that's a very Twitter thing is, is, and it's not just about Bitcoin, it exists in every subculture, in every community on the internet. If you've been around the internet long enough, you've seen this same behavior pop up in IRC channels, you've seen this same behavior pop up all over the place. So it's not crypto related, it's not Bitcoin related and to me, you just have to deal with it. You just have to be strong and, and know-- you have to know as a product, person, you have to know that what you're doing is right on the product side. You just have to know it, and whether Livera gets it, whether, you know, this guy on Twitter gets it, whether, you know, Mr. Huddle gets it in his shirt store, doesn't matter to me. I'm just gonna build the software. If you wanna use it, use it. Man, it's as simple as that, and, definitely, definitely won't be dictated to on how to build this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:15:06", "start": 4506.95, "text": "Yeah. let's talk about mobile mixing. So this is a feature that's coming, and, I have had the opportunity to be a part of the testing group as well, so it's kind of in an early testing stage. now, I, I think it's pretty cool in that it can really expand the number of users who might feel like, \"Oh, it's, you know, too much work to install a desk- desktop app, and maybe they just wanna do a mobile phone version.\" So can you tell us a little bit about mobile mixing and how that's going Sure. well, it's," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:15:37", "start": 4537.98, "text": "you know, that's been the day one goal when we started Samourai from the first, the first day, which was actually around this time in 2015. It was ultimate goal was to get mixing on mobile, and it's taken a long time and a lot of foundation, but we are pretty much there. So as you know, we have a, quite a small closed testing group which is designed, primarily to just, hit the, the protocol level stuff of the mixing on mobile hard. You know, make sure that Android isn't killing the service, make sure that, you're able to mix properly, make sure that remixing kinda works, make sure that All of the little things that just aren't known because no one's ever done mixing on mobile before, and it's, it's quite a difficult thing to, to pull off. There's a lot of stuff going on, a lot of communication going back and forth between the coordinator and the wallet, and of course, it's not, it's not clear text communication, it's all like chameleon payload stuff going back and forth, so these are big packets. The whole thing is, is quite, and, you know, mixing can just take a while right now, especially with low liquidity Whirlpool's doing fine, it's doing alright, but it's nowhere near the levels of, of what we think it's gonna be at full release. So you're just waiting around and latency isn't a friend of mobile, you know? You, when mobile, especially since Android six, Google has been killing background processes and killing background services, so having- Having all that stuff going on on mobile at once is, is a challenge, in regards to mixing, but I think we're pulling it off, and I think we're getting close to a release that will initially, I think, be more focused on Rapid fire once, one round mixes, right? Where you go from TX zero to premix and premix, to postmix. So you, you mix once, from, from start to finish. And what we should do, I think, is then try to push people onto the desktop app and say, \"Hey, you can get free remixes over and over and over again.\" And yeah, you could do that on mobile, but who wants to sit there with their phone open for days? Go put this on desktop, you know, just let it sit there and run. And I think we'll be able to onboard, you know, a huge number of our user base who are very much mobile only. But I think we'll be able to capture a few of those guys to say, okay, let me go ahead and connect this to the desktop app so that I can have free remixing on all of these things constantly going on, and use the desktop, use the mobile app when I just wanna do a s- a rapid-fire initiation of a mix." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:18:22", "start": 4702.23, "text": "So the idea is you might kind of tick off the mix and it'll just run on from then, and you won't have to sit around kind of like keeping it open. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:18:31", "start": 4711.82, "text": "Yeah, you could do it. I've, I've been testing that use case. I've been testing it, the, the Whirlpool mobile app as running it as a service. Running all the time. And my, my findings are in fact that if you wish to do this, it's best to do so on Android six point o because that was the last version before Google started removing background processes and, and stuff like that. Where you-- I've had the app running for like three, three or four days now, and it's just been doing great. on Android seven and eight and nine, you need to go into settings, disable background data restrictions, and disable battery optimization for the app, and after you do that, then you get a pretty decent experience for long-term use, and I, I'm talking- You know, more than an hour or so in this, for normal activity, you know, you just launch the app, press, you know, press go, and it should happen fairly quickly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:19:29", "start": 4769.5, "text": "I guess we should remember that if that user is already running Whirlpool CLI, which is a, basically that's offered as part of Ronin Dojo, so if you just want the easy setup, use that. but as we should understand that those users already using CLI don't really have to worry that much about it anyway, because they've already got the remixing coming from that anyway," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:19:48", "start": 4788.47, "text": "right? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:19:48", "start": 4788.89, "text": "exactly, exactly. So" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:19:50", "start": 4790.03, "text": "you could, I mean, you could have CLI running on your home server, you can have, the desktop app connected to your CLI on your, you Top or whatever, and you could have mobile app, all connected to the same Whirlpool instance, all connected in the same wallet, never mixing with itself, never doing anything weird like that. so it's, it's just all tied in, you know? The, it's not a hundred percent tied in, unfortunately, and that's just a time thing. We need more time to get everything, connected up, because if you create a note, for example, on your mobile, UTXO list and say, \"Hey, this Whirlpool, UTX I want it to be note A B C D. When you go onto the desktop app, that note won't exist there, because that is all local to the device, to the client. We don't have a, a server where that gets sent to that, that then the other clients can pull it down from. We just don't have that. So there is some, some elements that are disjointed, but the core functionality, the core thing of mixing, it will work across all, all of the platforms at any given time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:20:56", "start": 4856.21, "text": "another cool thing, well, another two things I wanna mention with the mobile mixing version. So again, as I've had an opportunity to play with the new version, I've noticed that there is now a more, like There's now coin selection, and you can select an individual UTXO, whereas in the past, you had to do it by reverse. So you had to basically select every other UTXO, go do not spend, and then spend. Now you've actually got the option where when you wanna spend, you can select this UTXO and spend the full amount, or, or only spend from that UTXO and then take back the rest as change. So that's a pretty cool feature. Honestly, it's my favorite" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:21:31", "start": 4891.49, "text": "of this release. I'm super excited for Whirlpool. Obviously, like UTXO list, I would, I, I am not able to use the previous version that we had with the \"Do Not Spend,\" and you have to flag everything. it's so much better with the new UTXO list, and, and I think that, that's just a, that's just a product of using the wallet every day. If you use the wallet a lot, if you transact a lot, you will end up with a lot of UTXOs. Yeah. They're just, especially if you're stonewalling, right? Because a stonewall will create extra UTXOs. so you're gonna have a lot, and then managing all those UTXOs, like you, like you said, you have to go through, let's say you have a hundred UTXOs. Yeah, it's just too time consuming, right? You know, you have to go ninety-nine of them. And I've done it, that's the thing. I've done it, and I've gone through that pain. And when you walk through that, that kind of hassle, you go, \"Okay, I need to fix this for our users," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:22:25", "start": 4945.42, "text": "'cause" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:22:28", "start": 4948.34, "text": "this is" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:22:29", "start": 4949.4, "text": "crazy.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:22:36", "start": 4956.54, "text": "X zero. So currently, for users who are not familiar, you would have to select a single UTXO and then push that through the normal whirlpool process. Now, you might have three or four pieces of UTXO and push them all through a whirlpool in w- with this new mobile mixing, feature." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:22:54", "start": 4974.28, "text": "Lower fees for you, that's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:22:55", "start": 4975.86, "text": "what that ends up being. Yeah. Lower fees for the user. Is that something you intend to bring on the desktop version as well? I, I would like that." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:23:05", "start": 4985.33, "text": "the desktop version is very basic. it's just, it's just a lack of resources. We have one developer who's working on Whirlpool primarily, so, and he's done, you know, the desktop GUI, did the CLI, and he's done all the protocol work and everything, so he's, he's a jack of all trades, in, in that respect. So we just haven't had the time to really flesh that out. we have had, an open source contributor on the Worldcoin GUI, Pavel from, he's, he's contributed to various open source projects, I think he's contributed to BTC Pay and Blue Wallet and stuff like that. He, he has started contributing to, Whirlpool GUI, and I think that, you'll see some really interesting things coming down the line in terms of getting that Really nicely refined. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I'm not, I, I have no aversion to bringing that particular functionality into the desktop app. we didn't do it to like maximize our fee revenue or anything like that. It was just easier to do a simple selection. The, the other thing about mobile that's different from desktop is you can mix from any address type. It doesn't have to be SegWit, it doesn't have to be Bch32." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:24:14", "start": 5054.14, "text": "right. So you can mix from a one address or from a three address." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:24:17", "start": 5057.36, "text": "Yeah, You could say, \"Oh yeah, this, this one, this one, and this one. Alright, add those to the mix.\" So it's a nice, you know, it's a nice upgrade for, for users who are having-- who are doing that anyway, 'cause they realize that, okay, if you're paying- Per TX0, they have to merge themselves. Right. I might as well merge it beforehand, so I only pay one TX0, which is obvious. Well, we just made it so they didn't have to do that step, and, you know, where we could, we could just merge it for them." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:24:43", "start": 5083.38, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And I guess as well for a merchant, let's say they're receiving lots of little chunks, and none of them are, let's say, over that point o one threshold, then they're kind of stuck, right? Yeah. So they have to do a merge." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:25:00", "start": 5100.99, "text": "But you can merge it all as part of your TX zero and then kick off your mixing process from there, so you don't-- you kind of skip a step, if you will. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Makes it a little easier. Yeah. So that's cool. One other thing, I guess from, the, let's zoom out more and just talking about Bitcoin's blockchain and the bloating, UTXO set and so on, what's your view around that with, There might be cross purposes, right? So somebody who's more concerned about cheapness of fees and not privacy at all, they might think, \"Oh, hey, I wanna have all my UTXOs into one, you know?\" And whereas, let's say the samurai kind of model of using StoneWall and including additional inputs makes transactions larger, and also, the use of all these additional, there's all these pieces of UTXOs out there, how do you think about that? Is that just something that, well- That's just the, the cost you pay for privacy. Privacy has a cost." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:26:00", "start": 5160.98, "text": "It's as simple as that. you know, things will come down the pike that reduce the impact on, on, on chain. you'll have things, coming down like Schnorr and Taproot that impact that or can't, or have the ability to impact that going, going forward. but ultimately we have to realize that ca- privacy doesn't have a cost and it's, it is more expensive to be private. And, and that's just how it is. And I think I, I find people who, who sit there worrying about the size of the TXO set to be is basically in the same camp as the big blocker guys who wor-- sit there and worry about the size of the, of the blocks, you know? It's like get something real to worry about." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:26:40", "start": 5200.48, "text": "Yep, yep. And as I understand the view from some of the samurai guys is a bit more like, maybe people have this kind of two thousand and seventeen PTSD that we're gonna see massive fee pressure really soon. Yeah. And I think it depends on your view on whether there was a lot of spamming of the chain in two thousand and seventeen by certain actors who may have wanted to push, let's say, B Cash or SegWit two X, whether any of those actors were Doing this kind of spamming of the chain. What's your view on that?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:27:13", "start": 5233.69, "text": "Yeah, I don't think it's even up for debate. I think it's very, very clear that they were. Laurent MT has done phenomenal research on this. He called it the, Moby Dick, tracking Moby Dick, and this, this was an entity that we, that he discovered via use of OXT, which is our analysis platform. And He's been able to connect the dots between this entity and various other economic actors who at the time of that scaling war or whatever would have been pushing for larger blocks. so Yeah, I think that was an entirely manufactured crisis, entirely. and it was both successful and unsuccessful. I don't think it was successful in what they were trying to achieve, which was to, to get obviously larger, larger blocks." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:28:11", "start": 5291.99, "text": "I think it was successful in warping The," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:28:19", "start": 5299.68, "text": "how do I put this? And warping the perceptions around, around the Bitcoin network because that lasting legacy of- The fee pressure, and we don't, we can't have a repeat of the fiasco of two thousand and seventeen or whatever. Well, were-- you know, if you were transacting during that time, it really wasn't that bad. Like you had, okay, yeah, you had to go and look at what the mempool was doing, which you don't have to do that really all that often now. You had to go and check it out, but- If you had a wallet like Samurai, you were bragging to people that you were only paying like, you know, twenty sat fees and still getting confirmed, while these idiots were paying three hundred, four hundred sats, right? so it was an entirely manufactured crisis. And, I'm not. I think, I think a lot of Bitcoiners now are latching onto that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:29:11", "start": 5351.06, "text": "in order to pump" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:29:11", "start": 5351.68, "text": "Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:29:13", "start": 5353.11, "text": "Right. And so I guess this comes to your skepticism a little bit around Lightning and- let's stay on this fee topic for a second though. With, so the view from that kind of person might be, \"Look, next time we have a bull market, we're gonna have another fee crisis, and it's gonna be just as bad, and everyone's gonna be paying huge fees on-- for on-chain transactions.\" And I guess your view is more like, \"No, actually, that two thousand and seventeen stuff was overly artificially pumped, and so even if we did have a bull run, it won't get so bad.\" It's your view." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:29:44", "start": 5384.83, "text": "Well, I, I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:29:45", "start": 5385.87, "text": "mean," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:29:47", "start": 5387.27, "text": "Rates of a couple hundred sats a byte. I, I mean, I don't know. what I saw in 2017 was, was a, a fee market trying desperately to cope with out having any market mechanism, without having any sort of, any sort of way to actually price itself, without hav- I just saw a market system that really had no chance of succeeding, and that was because it wasn't a real event. And under a real event where you don't have a certain, actor spamming the chain and introducing a bunch of false pressure, I think that we would see, we would see a different play out. Yeah, we would still have people waiting That might be okay, you know, you might not need to be confirmed in the next block. And I think we would, i-i-in, this is all in the case of a real event of mass adoption, like a real event of mass adoption, which I don't personally see coming anytime soon, but if it did come I think that it would take a little bit of time, but not that much time, but a little bit of time before people's behavior shifted and the way they thought about how they make transactions shifted. And they go, \"Do I need to be in the next block? Is my transaction actually urgent? or can I wait?\" You know? I also would expect to see better pricing mechanisms around just how much. Why, why three hundred sat to buy? Right? Like, why five hundred sat to buy? Is it because of the amount of transactions in the mempool? Is it because of the-- you know, there's, there's all these different variables, and I would like to see better pricing mechanisms built out, and the only way that's gonna happen is if There, there's an actual fee market taking place, building, you know, organically being derived. So you, you can't, you know, you can't centrally plan these things, you have to just kind of see how it plays out But I don't, you know, I'm not worried about it. I don't think that there's anything to worry about with, with on-chain fees. Fees will go high and then they'll go low, and eventually fees will have to go high. Right, once, once the block subsidy is done, the block rewards done." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:32:00", "start": 5520.51, "text": "Right, and most of it will be done in, let's say, ten to fifteen years-ish. I can't remember the exact number. And you really want a market to develop." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:32:07", "start": 5527.82, "text": "Before that point. Oh, of course, yeah. You know, you really want something developed before that point. So, you know, honestly, the sooner the better in terms of a fee event, a real fee fea-fee event to, so we can kind of figure out how this all works. But I don't know, I, I think that again, there's, there's bigger, bigger things to worry about, you know? So I'm not worried about that. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:32:31", "start": 5551.33, "text": "And so I guess that's maybe-- Is that your view also on Lightning? Is that you think it might be interesting, but it's just not worth your time right now? How do you think about it right now? Well, I, I think" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:32:41", "start": 5561.18, "text": "Lightning's interesting from a, a, as a technical project, you know? It's, it's-- I think it's, yeah, I think it's very interesting" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:32:51", "start": 5571.7, "text": "And I don't actually necessarily think it's all that interesting for Bitcoin in general. the way I see it is Lightning was forced down our throats as the scaling solution. There was no other option. Two thousand and seventeen came, we were in crisis mode, you know, we hit all time highs on the chain, we need a solution, and the solution is Lightning. I never bought that. It's a solution. Why is it the chosen one? You know, to me that never-- I never, I never could get behind that. is it interesting for Samourai? No, certainly not. It's too early. You know, it's way, way, way too early. and as I've s- watched the ecosystem grow, as I've watched the companies grow out of Lightning Network and around Lightning Network and what I would call the native Lightning companies? As opposed to getting the companies that got started on main chain and then graduated up to Lightning. The native Lightning companies, they kind of, they kind of disgust me, to be honest. They're all about KYC and custody. They don't, you know, that's to them, that isn't a red line, whereas to me, I wouldn't even conceive of publishing an app whereby users Where, we had custody of user funds, would never even conceive it. And I, I, I know that in two thousand thirteen, had anyone come up with some, such a, such a proposal, they, it would have, it would have been, they would have been laughed out of town Let's put it that way, you know, because that's such a, such a dirty word, such a red line, where now in Lightning Network land, people go, \"Yeah, but it will get better. Yeah, but that's only custody right now.\" When, when we get this fixed, it won't be anymore. And it's like, w-w-when does it work that way?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:34:36", "start": 5676.71, "text": "So, a-and the other one I guess that w- you people might say is, \"Oh, but it's only for small amounts, right?\" Like only thirty dollars or something. Yeah. It's only, it's only a little bit." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:34:44", "start": 5684.46, "text": "It's only for a little bit. Okay, so what's the point? So is, you know, so is, Square and, or, you know, PayPal and Cash App and all these guys. You can do the same thing. So why not do it there? You know, at least the, those guys, you know who they are, you know, not some rando on Twitter, you know. So to me, it's just not interesting. There's really zero, zero interest, like, you know, people getting excited about using fiat on your Lightning network, swapping this and, you know, to me, it's like, oh, who cares? But that's just me. And there are gonna be people who do care, and those people need to be able to work on that stuff. And I've always said this, you know, I, I have been critical and harsh on Lightning Network, but I've never been critical and harsh on the people building a Lightning Network. Because they're just building, they're just builders. So, as a protocol, I'm not all that interested. As a network, I'm not that interested. I'm happy to see people working on it. I'm happy to see a lot of, a lot of UX development happening there, which, which makes sense because you can do a lot of, a lot, a lot of UX is a lot easier when you're dealing with custody and you're dealing, when- You can hide a lot of concepts, complicated concepts that you just can't hide if you're a non-custodial wallet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:35:58", "start": 5758.42, "text": "Yeah. So, again, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm optimistic on Lightning. I accept though that it is early. I, I've seen personally, I see a lot of development has happened over the last year or so, but absolutely, it's still early. There's a lot of work still to be done. I, you know, ideally, we wanna get to that vision of having like Schnorr and Taproot And also like that idea of point time locking and so on to help privacy. I, I, I, I would love to see a world where we could sort of use techniques across both, right? So as an example, you could have like a, a wallet that's using CoinJoin but then also use the CoinJoin funds to open your Lightning channels, but- I, I suppose in your view, that's-- it's just too early for that sort of thinking. I" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:36:46", "start": 5806.95, "text": "mean, from a product level, I'd say why? Who's that serving? Is that serving, you know, five thousand guys on Twitter? Or is that serving who we want to, is that serving the darknet market guys? I don't think so." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:37:03", "start": 5823.51, "text": "Potentially it could, couldn't it? I mean, I, let me, again, let me know when one of them implements Lightning Network, and then we'll talk." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:37:10", "start": 5830.23, "text": "Yeah. So that's, yeah. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, that's a, I think that's a, it's, yeah, it, it can get-- and this is something I'm also careful about as well, is not, is making sure to not oversell things, because there are merchants who try to do it and sometimes run into problems on getting inbound liquidity or, you know, just setting it up correctly, so I am Sort of careful to not like push that aspect of it too hard, while at the same time being enthusiastic on it. another thing I've seen, to switch up a b- a little bit, you've mentioned Some thoughts on Liquid. So I think this is one of those things where I can, you know, from my perspective, I see benefits in, in certain use cases, right? If you're an exchange or a trading desk, absolutely, Liquid, you know, two of three out of the, fifteen functionaries makes total sense. but there are also- Other ways that you might view Liquid or even criticize Liquid, if, if s-if users aren't being, sold the right story or being kind of sold the wrong message. Do you, do you see that in Liquid at all, or is your criticism something different?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:38:27", "start": 5907.34, "text": "No, I think that's, that's pretty accurate, and I, and I agree with you. I think that there is a use case for Liquid. There's an absolute use case for Liquid, and you'd be crazy to say there isn't. However, what I don't understand is Why they're not-- they don't appear to be going for that use case, they appear to be going after a consumer market, which to me makes zero sense. But I, you know, who am I? I'm not, I'm there. Their team or anything like that. So I'm just, just one of those guys who are commenting, right? my big issue though is I've seen certain, certain big personalities Who do, who, whose voices are respected and whose voices are listened to by the wider kind of community there, saying that Liquid is Bitcoin. And Liquid is just as good, or, or Liquid is just as good as having Bitcoin, or Liquid is better than Bitcoin because you have all these privacy, enhancements on top. And this to me is dangerous, and it's not the fault of Blockstream for people saying that about their product. That's, that, you know, they can't control what other people say If one of their own employees is saying that, which I have seen, that's a different story. But let's just forget about that. On the broader scale, it's not really, you know, they can't control what people are saying about their, their tools that they built. But I think that Users, this falls on users, this doesn't fall on Blockstream, that's the thing, this falls on users. Users need to ask themselves, is it custodial? Can I get out of it? Just as easy as I get into it, and can anyone prevent me from getting out of it? Those questions have to be asked, and if you ask those questions and answer honestly, then it's very, very clear that it's no-- it's nothing like Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:40:23", "start": 6023.29, "text": "At all. Yeah. And so, a parallel, Lightning Bitcoin is Bitcoin, and I think it's fair to say so, because at any given point, you know, to have a Lightning channel, you have a pre-signed commitment transaction, which may be broadcast to the tran- to the blockchain, and that can be, you know, trust-minimized or trustlessly settled back into your own Bitcoin wallet and its full reserve. With- Liquid Bitcoin, however, it's fair to say, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's pegged in, however, the, as you mentioned, I think the potential risk is Having a permissioned peg out system, correct, and that's fundamentally the risk. And so I guess the risk would be-- So there are fifteen functionaries, and I believe there are members as well, but I think the key point here is the fifteen functionaries, and I think it's two-thirds, so I think it's eleven out of fifteen must sign the peg out request. And so that is potentially where the permissioning-- We don't know. We" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:41:29", "start": 6089.39, "text": "started the conversation with Binance Singapore and Pax- XOS closing down people's accounts because of proximity to a, a Ponzi scheme address plus by plus token. So we know what exchanges are gonna do If an exchange receives an order to not release the funds, to freeze funds because they're the result of an active investigation, then there-- we know what the exchange is gonna do because they do it today, they'll freeze it. And not one of those functionaries or whatever they're called is gonna vote to release your funds, and that's just how it is. And that makes sense on an institutional level when it's institutions dealing with institutions, when it's exchanges dealing with exchanges. Totally understand it, totally get it. They're stakeholders in their consortium, right? They signed up to this, they're part, they're at the table, they get, they're impacted by this deal, they can negotiate different rules for different, you know, roles within the organization. But you're a user, you have zero say in any of this. So when you're, just as a user using Liquid I, I just, yeah, I don't understand what that, that end game is, why they're, they're targeting users for this clearly enterprise product. But that's just, again, my personal, Ruminating on, on something." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:42:53", "start": 6173.89, "text": "Sure. one other point I could see, and I think, Max Tannhörl was mentioning this idea as well, of what might make a little bit more sense for Liquid, not necessarily the L BTC case, but potentially using Liquid for Tether. And so potentially, I could see maybe a retail use there where, let's say, a news agent, like just down the road, they wanna be able to sell, and so what they could start doing is selling- Selling Tether to people just on the street for cash, and then that person could now use that Tether to try and buy Bitcoin, and potentially that's, that's a case that might make sense." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:43:34", "start": 6214.01, "text": "What, what's your view? I saw, I saw a little bit of that go by on Twitter. I, I've been too busy this week to, to keep track of that particular debate, just because I don't know much about Tether. I've never used a stablecoin before, and I don't- You know, I didn't, I, I, I actually talked, talked to Max and asked him like some basic questions, embarrassingly, like, \"Can you get Tether without docsing yourself? Can you?\" 'Cause I just didn't know. So I tend-- I try to stay away from, you know, commenting on that sort of stuff when I just have no idea. Yeah, sure. if you can use Tether in a way where it doesn't compromise your, your identity via a KYC system, and if you're able to, withdraw your Tether without someone Giving you permission, and if you realize at the end of the day that Tether can just vanish, you know, it's not outside the realm of possibility. I think it's less likely as time goes on But, you know, we thought that would gox too, you know, so it can happen. So users should be aware of that. I, I, I don't a hundred percent follow the, the voucher thing, 'cause I know we have Bitcoin vouchers today. so I don't know why you would go and get a voucher for Tether, which you then go and get through some exchange or whatever, yeah, Bitcoin for it. But I think what I did see Max was arguing for was that Actually, let's talk about like the people in China, for-- I think that's what he used, people in China, rather hold, who are into crypto, rather hold a Tether dollar than their own currency. Right? And it's much easier to get a tether dollar than it may be to get a US dollar, which then you have to store. Right? You have to put it under the mattress, you have to convert it into gold or something, you know, you have to do something like that, whereas the tether dollar is just, you know, it's there. Right, so that might be an option for them. Okay, fair enough. And I didn't know, you know, if there's a some sort of underground economy with Tether, I don't know. And these are all things that would impact my, my opinion, would influence my opinion on, on the whole thing. But, but overall, I mean, I'm not interested because there is that, that risk, right? There is counterparty risk. You have the risk that Tether just disappears." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:45:41", "start": 6341.84, "text": "Yeah, gotcha. and, yeah, I guess for, for Buy Bitcoin, and once I've got my Bitcoin, then I'm good, right? So different ways. Yeah. Like" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:45:52", "start": 6352.46, "text": "that's what-- I mean, again, I'm really stupid on this stuff because I've just never been interested in that sort of thing. But isn't the whole point of Tether was so that you could get virtual US dollars so you could jump between" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:46:01", "start": 6361.79, "text": "exchanges? That was a big part of it. And I think what it happened in practice though was some people who were facing some form of capital controls or currency controls in China ended up using it also. So I think that was their" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:46:13", "start": 6373.77, "text": "thing" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:46:17", "start": 6377.12, "text": "Those are users. They're using virtual currency, digital currency in the way that we want Bitcoin to be used. It's a censorship-resistant money, and why are they using Tether? We need to figure that out. Oh, so Tether is coming to Samourai Wallet soon, guys?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:46:33", "start": 6393.05, "text": "Oh, I'm joking, I'm joking." }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:46:34", "start": 6394.21, "text": "I don't know, I know it's never coming." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:46:35", "start": 6395.33, "text": "I'm joking. You know what, you're gonna start now. No, no. let's, let's turn it back to just privacy more broadly and, and sort of finish it up." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:46:47", "start": 6407.36, "text": "The hope for users who wanna try and maintain their privacy going forward in a world where it's becoming harder and harder to first acquire that Bitcoin without KYC, is it, Bisc and Hoddle Hoddle or is it, you know, the family and friends trading network or is it earning Bitcoin or is it mining Bitcoin? What are your thoughts on that?" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:47:07", "start": 6427.42, "text": "That's a tough question. I think it's a combination really. It's a combination of them all. I think some are more effective than others. for me, it's been earning. before, before Samurai, it was still earning in Bitcoin. It's just finding what you can do and, and just putting yourself out there and hustling to try to, try to get, get a job in the industry. I'll tell you, it's a lot easier to do that in twenty twenty than it was to do that in twenty thirteen. So I really don't wanna hear any excuses of, \"Oh, I can't find a job,\" because there are so many companies in, in Bitcoin that are hiring, you know? There was a lot of money that was, was invested in Bitcoin companies and- If you want a job, you can probably find one if you have value to, value to add. So earning is definitely a huge one. family, friends, yes. meetups, I think are a really good place to be able to, to do some, you know, relatively low value transactions, probably no more than, you know, a thousand dollars or something, as what I would do at a meetup, but That's a good way to meet people and meet people who, you know, might be in the opposite situation of you. So you might want Bitcoin, but they might have Bitcoin and they need to get rid of it because they're like me and they need to eat. You know, so, that's, I think, a, a very valid way. And mining, you know, mining, it's one, it's one part of the, the ecosystem I, I never engaged with because we were being told even, even back when I got started that it was, \"You're a fool if you wanted to mine,\" because it was just impossible now. But I'm starting more to think that that was just the narrative Put out there by the miner. Right, right. Oh, god, that's so hard. Don't join my business. Oh, oh, it's too hard. But you know, whatever. But I, I know, I know a few guys, who hang out in the samurai Telegram room who have re- relatively recently started mining, which is like, you know, that's kind of crazy. You know, you're really going up against a massive, you know, massive, like multi-million dollar funded companies and stuff. But that's cool, you know, that's awesome that they You know, a small stream of Bitcoin, and these aren't miners that are looking to sell at the end of, you know, when they, when they receive some coins, they're doing it to hold, you know? So They're less, they're less interested in the, you know, am I making a profit on the amount of electricity that I'm, that I'm, yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a smart point. And I'm more interested in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:49:27", "start": 6567.95, "text": "acquiring Bitcoin without anyone, you know, knowing, okay, well, see, yeah, right. So you might theoretically think, hey, I can't mine them at par on, in terms of the cost, but if I'm just kind of taking a bit of a loss on the electricity and the maintenance and all these other costs, but I'm getting KY" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:49:49", "start": 6589.18, "text": "If they are able to speculate, right? So if they can say, okay, can I cop the operating cost for half a year, and then if I believe the price is going up in, you know, the long term, then, yeah, maybe there's an argument there. And I" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:50:00", "start": 6600.92, "text": "think, yeah, and I think that's a valid, you know, that's a valid way. And you, and you have people like Slush who have created Slush Pool to make it really, you know, there's no reason why you can't join a mining pool. if you have, you know, if you have that type of hardware, there's no reason why you can't. So it's, there's a lot of, the access is there. So you, yeah, you should, you know, if that's something that's interesting to you, that's definitely something, you should look into because It's a way of obtaining Bitcoin without KYC, same with, same with earning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:50:29", "start": 6629.47, "text": "Yeah. Another cool saying, and we've-- I think we've mentioned this before, and T-Dev, it's-- I think it's basically his catchphrase at this point, he says, \"Make every spend a CoinJoin.\" So, Samourai Wallet, do you wanna just make the case for listeners, why should they make every spend a CoinJoin? Well," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:50:47", "start": 6647.26, "text": "every spend should just be, should be a CoinJoin. Because with every coin join, whether you can tell it's a coin join or not, like stowaway or you can't tell, it pollutes the dataset and it pollutes the, the graph of, of, an, spies and analy-analysts who would Apply their own layer of thinking on what should just be a blank slate of transactions, incoming and outgoing, and anything that you can do To mess with them on that, I think is something that you should do. And it's not only you doing it for you, but by you doing it, you're helping everyone else on the network. By creating doubt and disorder within what these people think is a perfectly ordered, you know, world of inputs to outputs, and this is how things must be, by making every spend a coin join, you, you break that, and there's literally nothing they can do" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:51:45", "start": 6705.87, "text": "Yeah, I'm a big fan of that. I mean, obviously I'm more about hodling, but my view is more like if you are spending, you should do it with a coin join, right? Or a stonewall, which looks like a coin join. so, look, I think that's about it. so let's just finish up with, you know, where can listeners find you and where can they learn more about Samurai Wallet? Sure. well, we're on," }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:52:07", "start": 6727.16, "text": "samouraiwallet dot com, and that's S A M SamouraiWallet.com and the same on Twitter, samourai wallet, and on Telegram. So we have a very active Telegram group, it's, I think, one of the most active crypto groups. and we have, various, various rooms for various aspects of our software. So if you're really into CoinJoin, we have a Whirlpool room. If you're just really into the Dojo stuff, we have a Dojo room for you. And if you just want, you know, more of a quiet experience with just the most important updates, we have the main Telegram" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:52:41", "start": 6761.25, "text": "The room is only, invite only. Yeah, I'll get, I'll" }, { "speaker": "samourai_wallet", "time": "01:52:43", "start": 6763.73, "text": "get in trouble. which I am, I'm not an admin of that one, I don't have anything to do with it, but I, it's where I, where I hang out the most, I think." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:52:51", "start": 6771.39, "text": "That's right, there's some very good discussions, but let's just say that's an invite only room for that one. so look, thank you again, for joining me today. I'm a big fan of the wallet, it is my favorite Bitcoin wallet, So if you haven't already, go and install Samourai Wallet and go and try out the Ronin Dojo, which is a really easy way to get your own dojo setup going. You just need a Raspberry Pi 4, a one terabyte SSD, and a sixteen gig micro SD card, and then you can basically follow the instructions. There's a Telegram chat room, and there's a GitHub page with a, like, a wiki and a walkthrough. So go and check that out. also, show notes and transcript are on my website, stephanelivera dot com. This is" } ] }