{
  "episodeId": "SLP19",
  "speakers": {
    "stephan": {
      "name": "Stephan Livera",
      "role": "host",
      "tag": "STEPHAN"
    },
    "vortex": {
      "name": "Vortex",
      "role": "guest",
      "tag": "VORTEX"
    },
    "guest_2": {
      "name": "Guest 2",
      "role": "guest",
      "tag": "GUEST"
    }
  },
  "segments": [
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "00:04",
      "start": 4.38,
      "text": "Welcome to the Stephan Livera podcast."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "00:12",
      "start": 11.83,
      "text": "Hey guys, welcome to the show. This is Stephan Livera podcast 19 and my guest today is Vortex. Welcome, Vortex. Hey, how you doing, Stephan? It's great to be here. Great to have you on, and, I guess I'll just introduce you by your real name, Jeffrey. so Jeffrey is a very well-known Bitcoin YouTuber and podcaster within Bitcoin, and he's previously worked and interviewed many, many people in Bitcoin. He's run a lot of different, you know, stream and news shows, and just now he's actually starting up his own new network called the CryptoCast Network, and he's also doing a Bitcoin programming Education course, making use of NBitcoin and C# so if you didn't understand any of those things, we're gonna try and, we're gonna go into that and explain a little bit further. so Jeffrey, maybe you wanna tell us a little bit about what you're doing with the CryptoCast network?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "01:10",
      "start": 70.22,
      "text": "Sure. So, well, thanks again for having me. I really appreciate it. you've, you've-- I think you've interviewed more people than me by at this point, and you just keep on putting more content than I think the rest of us can keep up with. We, we try, but it's, it's actually getting pretty difficult. I think somebody mentioned we're, we're kind of in a golden age, right, for podcasting. there's a lot of great people out there. So yeah. with the CryptoCast Network, this own, YouTube channel just of recently, to focus more on tech related content, more tech related shows, focused on more people, interviewing more people in the space, much like you do, Stephan. I've, I've, I've heard a lot of, your great interviews already as well, and we interview a lot of the same people, you know, because really the space, it's, it's not so big yet, it's, it's still kinda small, you know, the Bitcoin space, and so a lot"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "02:03",
      "start": 123.01,
      "text": "of"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "02:10",
      "start": 129.62,
      "text": "network with a, a YouTube channel that is focused on, speaking about, speaking with people in the crypto and Bitcoin space. And so we've been having a lot of fun interviewing a lot of people there. We have a lot of different shows on there. We just recently, launched a show on there with Beauty on, called Bitcoin Matters. And then we, we just launched a Q&A show, with the host Heidi there,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "02:33",
      "start": 152.53,
      "text": "of, Crypto Tips. she has a crypt- a YouTube channel called Crypto Tips It's about for us is getting information out in the space 'cause there's so, just so much noise, you know, and, we really try to provide the signal, that we think that the community deserves."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "02:50",
      "start": 170.22,
      "text": "Yeah, that's right. And I think one thing that we're seeing now is a lot of just chatter and talk about random ICOs and random other blockchains. And I think one thing that's needed is to really focus it back on what is really important. So do you wanna talk a little bit about why Bitcoin and not, you know, some of the other overhyped blockchain technology?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "03:14",
      "start": 194.41,
      "text": "Well, it's interesting, you know, I think that the whole, Bitcoin, not blockchain thing is starting to come, make a big comeback, you know, you know, we're in this bear market, we've been in this bear market now for about, you know, eight or nine months, and so there's been a, a little bit of downplay on the whole, you know, market in general, but really, what we've seen is that people, you know, move away from these alts, from these ICOs, we've seen the, the, Transactions there, I think they're over forty-five percent now, but yeah, you know, more, more and more people are kind of, I think, understanding here that, the internet of money lies within Bitcoin. This is where the innovation is, because this is where the term blockchain comes from, this is where, you know, all of the focus on sound money is, and, and it's really, it's under, it's, it's sort of painful for peo- you know, to listen to these people who try to say that, you Only one TCP/IP, right? We have only one internet. There was a focus there, a very, very, very fine focus on bringing communication to the world, right? This was a really, really big, focus, to be able to have a decentralized network, something that can't go down with, with any central point of failure, right? So this is what, what, what the focus is for Bitcoin, to have this sound money. There's a very, very fine focus, you know, people sometimes call us Bitcoin maximalists, but really that's, you know, that The, the fame and, and sort of, sort of make light of the fact of the single-minded focus of creating sound money. This is really, really important, you know. There's all sorts of innovation going on, various technologies, various other blockchains. It's, there's, there's, there's things happening, but it's, it's really not super important because most of it is actually, just, just, just a database, you know, can be redistributed with just a database. It's, it's not, it's not really, as Jimmy, as Song"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "05:14",
      "start": 314.13,
      "text": "Buzzword. It means nothing anymore, and it's unfortunate 'cause, you know, we, the Bitcoin people still understand that Bitcoin's blockchain is here for a very, very important reason. It is, really the only, blockchain because it really is, in my opinion, the only decentralized blockchain at scale. This is, the, the dream of cypherpunks that has been, you know, on their minds for decades. You know, Satoshi was simply standing on the shoulders of giants like many before him, and, with this single-minded focus of"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "05:44",
      "start": 344.27,
      "text": "of the state, something that a no central party can, can control. And so this is, you know, this is what I believe is important, because, you know, as if you read the book, the Safety and Book, Bitcoin Standard, you'll, you'll sort of get an idea about how sound money, when we have sound money, we can have a golden age. And so I think that that's where the focus should be. I think that that's where many of the smartest people on the planet are working on because they see that importance"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "06:11",
      "start": 371.26,
      "text": "Focus on blockchain stuff and some of these projects that really aren't that important to humanity, but, really do, make a lot of money with VCs and, raise a lot of capital and, do a lot of advertising and, you know, and have a lot, have a large, quote unquote, market cap, which of course has zero market depth, at all. But it, it, it's, we-- I think that again, this is turning around now with the Bitcoin dominance, I think we're now getting more eventually it will figure out what's going on a-as, you know, it continues to price Bitcoin above anything else. And so I think that, we will, r-really understand this and, and again with, with the maturity of Lightning coming, over the next year or two, people are gonna really start to, to wake up to what Bitcoin can do"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "06:58",
      "start": 417.6,
      "text": "Yeah, great point, great comments. I think the, I like the point you made around how Bitcoin is the really the only decentralized blockchain at scale currently. And I think the other thing that you were commenting on that would be great if you could expand on for the listeners is, I think you've commented there about how many of the altcoins and ICOs, they have an established corporation and marketing budgets and so on, whereas the way I perceive Bitcoin, it's really more of a community feel and it's really more of an organic growth. There is no Bitcoin marketing team, and so as such, individuals just kind of take it on themselves to do that, and to some extent, that's where some of these, you know, networks and podcasts, playing that role. So did you want to comment on your thoughts on the marketing budget vision of crypto-currency versus the community or organic based? feel?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "07:49",
      "start": 469.28,
      "text": "Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, a lot of people, there's, there is some people in the space that are like, \"Look, we, you know, we ne- we need some kind of centralized organization. We need to mirror what we've understood before, right? We, we, we don't understand, free open source software development, and so we're like, we, we need to create a foundation. We need to, you know, we need to create a, a leader, you know? There's some people in the space that just, Bitcoin is, i-it's software, it's created by developers, and of course, the, it, it lives in the meat space as well as, as, as everything does, because this is how it is built by humans, but this is software, this is the digital realm, and this is, you know, this is important, and so I think- What people need to understand is, is that, Bitcoin is decentralized. This re-- you know, this word is even me-- becoming meaningless these days, I guess, but what this means is that this is-- there is no central point of failure, there is no leader. This is a grassroots organization, as, as you may have said, this, this is what, this is what decentralization actually looks like, because until your network has been attacked by, you know, billion dollar-- bil-billions and billions of dollars of corporations, ninety percent of the miners, right? Until you have Had all of this stuff coming down and still survived that, your chain is simply not decentralized, right? It's never been fully tested. That's why we say Bitcoin is the only, decentralized blockchain at scale, because it's been through these types of, these types of challenges, and it has, has, the security has hardened, to represent that. You know, we have this, this Nakamoto consensus with these full nodes. This is what drives the rules. And so if you don't like those rules, well then what ends up happening is you, you fork off This leaderless structure, you know, Pierre Rochard has great, great content on this. I highly recommend your viewers, follow Pierre Rochard. He's done, he's done videos, he's done papers, he's done, slides, all of this stuff, presentations and, and all of this, podcasts. He also has, The Noted podcast, but he talks about this at length about- How Bitcoin's governance structure works, and it really is decentralized. You have to put in a proposal, you have to be able to get people behind you, you have to be able to get consensus, you have to be able build a community support around it. You can't just get your stuff, you know, you can't just get your stuff merged in. this is what makes Bitcoin decentralized. You know, a lot of people think that, the Bitcoin core, team is in complete control, but, you know, as Eric Lambrusco has just been tweeting out just recently So wanted to be the king of Bitcoin, he merged something into Bitcoin, well, the rest of the, the nodes aren't, are, are gonna immediately, you know, immediately invalidate that, and he'll be forked off to his own chain. You simply can't change Bitcoin without consensus, and that is what, you know, that's the difference, that's the big difference. And so I think that's the important difference between, this and Silicon Valley, right? This free open source development versus Silicon Valley, this centralized sort of, you know, top-down approach where"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "10:52",
      "start": 651.53,
      "text": "Get a little bit of, marketing money, get, get their product out there, and then that's that, and that's fine. But, you know, we're not building products here, we are building protocols, and that's what's important about Bitcoin. It is a protocol where the rest of these things, like you say, you know, Stephan, they're just companies, they're just centralized organizations, and some of these centralized organizations, like Ripple, right? They're even saying that, hey, guess what, guys, we are going to be more decentralized. We"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "11:21",
      "start": 681.41,
      "text": "Break down really fast for anybody who's paying attention, and, and that's, I think what your viewers really need to understand is the difference there is that Bitcoin is decentralized, it is free open source software development, and it has no leader, and this is the way that we prefer it."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "11:36",
      "start": 696.04,
      "text": "Yeah, great points about, you know, all of those comments, and I think it would be great, if you could maybe outline and explain just for the listeners, what does it mean to merge in code and run a node? Like if we could just outline a little bit about, you know, that distinction."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "11:53",
      "start": 713.41,
      "text": "Sure. So, you know, as I say, you know, Bitcoin is free open source software development, so it has, it lives on GitHub. You can actually go to github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin and see the source code. And so, there are people that are developing Developers out there, and then there's people that review the source code, and, at the end of the day, there's people that merge in new code into Bitcoin, and then the nodes, of course, can choose to run this or not. So what happens is, is, they, they're, there's an upgrade to Bitcoin, and then there's hundreds of thousands of nodes around the world that will either upgrade or not. If they choose to upgrade, that means that, that they approve of the software, right? That means everything's good, they'll, they'll, Merged something in and the rest of the nodes didn't agree with this, right? If they merged, if they, import code in there, and the rest of the nodes, the rest of the network doesn't agree with this, that means that, that isn't Bitcoin and they'll get immediately forked off. So no-- when I say nodes, I mean these, these full validating nodes that are-- some choose to ident-identify themselves, you know, on the network, and so we can see like around a couple hundred thousand or so, but there's many, many more than Governance, that's what Pierre Rochard likes to say, is this is the network governance of full nodes validating rules, and these rules can be changed, but it's quite difficult, like I say, you have to get consensus across the whole network. And so, again, this is what makes, you know, Bitcoin, decentralized."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "13:22",
      "start": 802.32,
      "text": "Yeah, great points around the running of a node, and that's what when people participate in the Bitcoin network, they can choose to run their own node, and in that way, they are validating the rule set of what transactions they will accept or reject. on the basis of what software they are running. And so it's an interesting point you mentioned around the, you know, free open source software process, where just because the guys who are developing in Bitcoin Core, which is one of the implementations of Bitcoin, just because they release a new version, doesn't mean everyone will like it and that they will run that code on their machine. And so in a sense Bitcoin Core, when they release a new version, they are in a sense, they are competing with the prior versions of their own software. Do you want to comment on that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "14:13",
      "start": 852.53,
      "text": "Absolutely. No, no, you said it pretty well there, Stephan. That's exactly, how it works. You really do have to gain a community consensus, you have to gain a community following, you have to convince people that your change is valid, that your change is important, that we should all upgrade to your change, and this is how it should be, right? In, in a sort of a merit Is, thinking adversarially, maybe that update has a problem, right? Maybe hasn't been fully peer reviewed yet. We have to make sure that, that update is good, it's peer reviewed, you know, it's signed by, the, the actual GitHub itself, the, the, sorry, the repo itself, the Bitcoin repo itself. We have to make sure where the code is coming from, where the binaries are coming from, if they're signed or not. You know, this is how we, this is the mantra of Bitcoin is to, you know, this Of Bitcoin and its adversarial thinking and its game theory. This is what drives, this is what makes sure that everybody's sort of almost got a, a gun to everybody else's shoulder, right? This is what Nakamoto Consensu- it, Nakamoto Consensus is, and, this is how Bitcoin, works and functions, and it's been working great, you know, for the last ten years."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "15:23",
      "start": 923.48,
      "text": "yeah, great points around meritocracy. I think that's another point that might be good for you to expand on, Jeffrey, is just because, you know, there are, say, a few people who have Who are maintainers of the Bitcoin core code base, and they are able to merge a change into that code base, but could you just, outline that they aren't necessarily the king of the repo, so to speak, or the, the, you know, other, you know, that change still has to get reviewed, right?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "15:54",
      "start": 954.1,
      "text": "Absolutely. So it still has to get peer reviewed. You know, for example, if somebody merged a change that was, that, that was just not peer reviewed at all, you can bet that the, somebody's going to probably access to that person, that person's ability to merge changes. These people don't, you know, take this very lightly. Again, there are hundreds, hundreds of contributors to the Bitcoin Core repo from across the world that do all sorts of peer review code, you know, even just take care of, you know, even contribute to the Bitcoin dot org website and, and make sure that, you know, the, the people are updated with the latest version to make sure that that's actually, signed from the correct binaries to make sure that, the latest information is up to date so that people A whole lot of contribution, and it's all voluntary. You know, a lot of it's voluntary. Now, of course, there are a couple of companies like Chaincode Labs, right, and Co- and, Block, Blockstream that employ a couple of these core developers, but again, you know, it's-- This is a, a group process. There are mailing lists, there are IRC chats, there are discussions that happen, that has to happen first, and everybody has to agree. A lot of these changes, Stephan, take years, you know, to actually go through Implementing code and then getting that code peer reviewed and then, you know, checking that on testnet, getting that on testnet for a while, then making sure that is peer reviewed, right? And then finally, you know, finally getting it merged in, and then again, that's the last part. Then you still have to con-- you know, then the rest of the nodes still have to update to that change, and that's what really, you know, that's what really is great about Bitcoin, is that not-- we can get, we can be guaranteed that not just anything can And if there's any hink, and you know, if there's any kinks in the process, they'll be, they'll be changed, right? So Gavin, right? We had Gavin, we had Gavin's access removed, and that was, in my, I'd like to argue that that was a good thing. He hasn't really contributed a whole lot, you know, lately, as of late before he got his keys removed, but then he got his keys removed, right? The, the, the network acted. And so if there's people that, that, that"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "18:05",
      "start": 1085.02,
      "text": "important for the network to do in order to stay stable."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "18:09",
      "start": 1089.27,
      "text": "Yeah, yeah, and I think another point that would be great for you to touch on is just the adversarial thinking. So I'll just outline a little bit of context. A lot of other cryptocurrencies have Smaller network effects around them, they have decreased security, and as such, they haven't faced the same level of threat that Bitcoin has. So can you comment a little bit about how- Now, you know, the importance of adversarial thinking within Bitcoin and Bitcoin development."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "18:41",
      "start": 1120.8,
      "text": "Yeah, so it's really interesting because, again, you know, no single actor controls all of the Bitcoin network, so the, it is made up of many different constituents, such as, you know, exchanges, wallets, you know, users, businesses, developers, miners. These are all of these, these, these different actors in the space play a specific part. And if, and, what happens is, is that sometimes some of these parts tries to get taken over. But the beautiful thing is, is that again, because of this adversarial thinking that we're talking about here, everybody is always making sure that everybody else is, is, is playing by the rules, and if they're not, then, you know, the, they are incentivized, the network is incentivized to kick them off. the actual game theory is such that it incentivizes good action, it incentivizes people to be good actors on the network. And so what we've seen is, various, take, takeover attempts. You know, the, the biggest one was last For, and for if your listeners don't know, you know, a lot of people don't know about this story because they just came in late last year, and I'm finding a lot of people still are, are unfamiliar with this. But essentially, you know, there was a group of, companies and miners and exchanges that came together that wanted to change Bitcoin to the sense they actually literally wanted to change the repo. So as I mentioned to your listeners, to your listeners earlier, it was, Bitcoin, Git, the location of the, the current location of the main implementation of Bitcoin is Bitcoin and they of course wanted to change that to their own repo, led by a developer named Jeff Garzik, and they got together and they literally signaled ninety percent of the hash power of the entire network To change, that's what they were signaling. They were saying, \"Hey, guys, we're gonna switch over to this new network change on this specific date in November.\" And what happened was, is that, a lot of the network didn't agree with that. We, you know, the, the, a lot of the hard work of the developers, the open-source developers, the contributions of these developers over years and years, you know, was, would, would be simply just, \"Oh, no, we're just gonna copy that, paste that to a new location, paste that code"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "20:47",
      "start": 1246.98,
      "text": "out of the network. And so what happened was, is we saw something, somebody n-- by the name of Shallenfroy created something called the user activated software, where it literally actually created some software that, would, would actually split the chain to upgrade to SegWit, and if you didn't upgrade to SegWit, then you would be kicked off the, the chain. And of course, to, you know, this, this was a pretty much a, A head-to-head collision between the community and these, these companies. And so what we saw was, is that the network actually chose to, instead of split the chain, they chose to activate SegWit So what happened was, is the, the users ran this software, the user activated software, and it forced all of these companies, despite all of their money and all of their hash power and all of their advertising and all of their marketing, they still chose instead to activate SegWit, and they called off their two X SegWit two X, from Jeff Garzik that would have changed the repo, they called that off, canceled that, and now we have SegWit, and everybody understands a little bit more that, that these running these full nodes, making sure that these- Rules aren't forced, no matter who you are, you know, that's what's important. And like I try to tell people in many different talks, I try to say that, \"Look, who, who controls Bitcoin, who isn't controlling Bitcoin? It's you. It's you, the user. You are in control of Bitcoin by declaring your sovereignty, by running a full node, by running the software that says you think that this version of Bitcoin is Bitcoin, and nobody else can change that.\" And that is what's, that's what makes Bitcoin important."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "22:17",
      "start": 1337.42,
      "text": "Yeah, fantastic, fantastic comments. let's now outline a little bit, just for people who are a bit newer, what, who are the key players or who are the key components or what are the key components of the Bitcoin ecosystem? So as an example, there's exchanges, there's wallets, you know, and so on and so forth. let's start with, just the exchanges. What role do they play?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "22:40",
      "start": 1360.5,
      "text": "Yeah, so the, it's interesting because, the exchanges, they're, they're really where most of the action sort of happens right now in these early days of Bitcoin. A lot of the transaction, a lot of the activity on the network is actually transactions, you know, going in and out of exchanges and activity on exchanges. And so, what we've seen is that, they kind of play the, the most, the biggest role of activity on the network. And so last year, as I, as I've mentioned with user activated software, there, the exchanges were sort And that they could do various techniques such as batching their transactions to save on fees. And so now what we've seen is that all these exchanges out there are now batching their transactions, and this is saving the network enormous amounts of money on fees. this is allowing for enormous more amounts of block space. And so this is really, really important. It allows the, the network to continue, really, really, you know, allows it to continue smoothly and, with, with low fees. And so, the exchanges really at this point, they kind the, this new world, they really are, you know, as, you know, Coinbase is arguably, more of a wallet than an exchange, but at the same time, they, they, they create that same function where they really are the window from the bridge from the old world into the new. This is how you get your cryptocurrencies, is with these exchanges, and so, the, you know, they play a pretty big role, but again, you know, we, we've seen that, that eventually even they, have to learn and understand and,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "24:10",
      "start": 1449.99,
      "text": "Right, yep, yep. And so the exchanges, as they exist today, they, like you say, they are, in a sense, they are an on-ramp into Bitcoin from the fiat world. How about wallets? And I understand obviously there's some relation there, but could you just outline what are some of the different- Possible wallets in the Bitcoin space."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "24:32",
      "start": 1471.95,
      "text": "Yeah, and wallets is really important because they, they really provide the user interface. I mean, exchanges, sure, that's how you get, you know, your first Bitcoin maybe or your first cryptocurrencies, but wallets, you know, that's, that's how you're going to work with cryptocurrency in the long term. That's how the end user, really mostly the end user is going to, in the future, use, these Bitcoins and cryptocurrencies, they're not gonna really worry too much about exchanges, they're going to, have all their cryptocurrencies all Today in the future. So they, if you need to, for example, within your wallet, change some Bitcoin out for Litecoin, you'll be able to do that, within your wallet itself. So they're going to play a little bit, you know, there's a little bit of crossover over there. But really wallets, this is where all of your cryptocurrencies are going to be held. There's, there's several wallets out there that focus on just Bitcoin, then there's wallets that have all of these multicurrencies that you can hold many, many different coins in. And, Interfaces, such as the one called, Zap Wallet made by somebody named Jack Mallers, that wallet interface is just beautiful and gorgeous, and it's coming out for the, for the iOS, and it really does look like an iOS wallet, like it belongs on the iOS. The, the user interface is really slick. And, and so, you know, we're seeing that right now most of the wallets they, they're, they're getting better, right? They're-- because this is what's really important is to, to onboard their mainstream is"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "25:57",
      "start": 1556.6,
      "text": "to get we're seeing a lot of the wallets in the space sort of upgrade now to these, you know, to, to really to meet the requirements, to sort of match and compete directly with, things like PayPal and Venmo. We're basically there, you know, with Coinbase and, and some of these other wallets out there, they, they really are getting there now, and so I think they, they play an important role for the user experience, especially in the future as more and more people learn to use these new technologies."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "26:24",
      "start": 1583.73,
      "text": "Yep, yep. And these are different ways of thinking. They're not, they're not kind of, familiar to the average person. So could you maybe outline the difference and the distinctions between, say, the hosted wallets? You know, what is a hosted wallet and what is more like an end user software wallet?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "26:42",
      "start": 1602.44,
      "text": "Sure. So, I mean, there are, excuse me, there are wallets, on, on these exchanges, you know, 'cause every, exchange has to still hold your cryptocurrencies, right? So there has to be a wallet in, there as well. So, you know, there's, there's these hosted wallets that, for example, you can use these browser-based wallets. There's these wallet services that allows you to create them within your browser, but those, you know, they really aren't quite as secure as something like a hardware wallet. And If you're going to hold your, your cryptocurrency long term, if you're going to hold large amounts of cryptocurrency, we recommend that you use something called a hardware wallet. And there's a big difference between, for example, you know, wallets, on, on your desktop or wallets on your mobile phone, as we mentioned, like with the Zat wallet, or, a hardware wallet. And so this hardware wallet is something that is, is designed and made specifically for holding large amounts of cryptocurrencies for large amounts of time. And so if something like a Trezor or something like a Ledger in the hardware wallet space, but there's a bunch more that are coming and, and this is going to be a huge, huge, huge market. So, you know, in the future, as more and more people come into the cryptocurrency space, we're just a small sort of, Pool right now, but eventually we will become this ocean of liquidity and, and demand, as, as the more and more of the world switches over to cryptocurrencies."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "28:03",
      "start": 1683.46,
      "text": "Yeah, great point around the different types of wallets there, Jeffrey. And I think it's in-- it's also a good thing to just outline the different, let's say the spectrum, so of control of the wallet versus convenience, versus best, better security and privacy. So on one end, you can think of it like the, you know, if you just leave your coins on an exchange That might be really convenient, but it's very poor from a security and a privacy point of view. But then you, you've got the other end of the spectrum where if you are keeping things in what we've called a hardware wallet, and you might, you know, maybe if you've got a serious amount of coin, you might keep that in a vault, and you might start looking at multi-signature and kind of more advanced technology around that. And then there are also solutions that are coming that are now somewhere in between, such as the Casa wallet, which is a multi-signature style solution. So I'd learn a little bit on the different, how can I say, the different possible ways that, you know, you don't have to choose one way, you can choose the way that works best for you"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "29:06",
      "start": 1745.72,
      "text": "Yeah, and it's, that's a great point, Stephan. There's really all of these different layers and these levels of security, depending on how much coin you have, right? So like I try to tell, new people, that are, that are coming into the space to say, \"Look, if, if you only are going to buy a hundred dollars amount of, you know, Bitcoin, only do a hundred dollars amount of research, right? \" 'Cause that's going to incentivize you to continue to learn more and more, and as you put more"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "29:35",
      "start": 1774.72,
      "text": "Different, convenience, right, versus security type of layers, 'cause a lot of people just want to maybe use a bank and just kind of be like a bank. This is, what the, what services like Coinbase can provide, they really can provide that, that hand-holding traditional solution of just holding your coin for you, 'cause it's very, very, very convenient. You know, they're federally insured, they're pretty much a bank at this point, they have all the regulations, you know, that's what Coinbase is really, really good at is, is, company more of a bank than a software company these days, and so you, you can find convenience there in these types of wallets and solutions that will hold your hand, but, see that, that sort of goes against the ethos of what Bitcoin provides, because the big thing that, Bitcoin provides is this is the first asset in the history of mankind that is unconfiscatable. This is the first unconfiscatable asset in the history of mankind. This, this cannot be controlled, censored, frozen by anybody if you hold your own keys, if you hold the Bitcoin yourself. And so So that's a big promise of Bitcoin, you know, because a lot of people get burned, have been burned by banks and, you know, all over the world, and so this is what, you know, Bitcoin is, is here to help with and really, provide that store of value. And so in order to really execute on that store of value, you have to hold the keys, 'cause hey, Andreas Antonopoulos likes to say, if it's not your keys, it's not your Bitcoin. And so people make these trade-offs. They try to go a little bit more"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "31:05",
      "start": 1864.72,
      "text": "And that's just like the traditional fiat system. So, we recommend that you hold, that you take a bit more responsibility and hold your coins in, in, you know, more of a difficult solution called a hardware wallet, and it's really not that much more difficult, right? We're just talking, all the interfaces look the same, you just have to, do a little bit more research into these other types of solutions. And then, then in addition to that, like you say, we have these multi, sig solutions now, like Casa Wallet, which"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "31:35",
      "start": 1894.86,
      "text": "Which is one of the largest c- companies in Bitcoin, the Bitcoin and cryptocurrency space. They secure large amounts of funds, they are at this, custodial solution for a lot of the big companies in the space like exchanges and things like that. And so, they're, they're, Jamie's a lot, needless to say, is a pretty good expert about managing your, your keys, managing your coin, to make sure that it is, most secure. And so what they do is they allow you, for a fee, to be able to hold"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "32:05",
      "start": 1924.64,
      "text": "You know, that you're, that you'll still be okay to make sure that requires one more person in order to take out all of the funds, you know, to make sure that, for example, if somebody comes to your home and tries to rob you or something like that, right? They can't, you can't, they can't get your keys. There is a, there is somebody else holding that key. And so, there's, there's solutions like that, but of course, those are for the, more recommended, you know, for the, for the Of all of these different, ways of holding your cryptocurrencies, and it's just going to take a generational change really to sort of understand this. It's like going from standard email to email. We're, we're going from, you know, just a couple of, just, just one currency in the first world, you know, usually to, to many tens of currencies and sometimes hundreds of currencies. And so, for a lot of the world, it's not a huge change, but, you know, especially for some, some people in like China and South Korea"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "33:05",
      "start": 1984.58,
      "text": "important to understand these things and, and I hope that your audience, you know, goes and explores, some of these different solutions."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "33:11",
      "start": 1991.06,
      "text": "Yeah, great comments. Okay, let's now talk a little bit about merchants and payment processing using Bitcoin. So can you outline who are the key players there, whether they are one centralized company or whether they're an open source alternative, let's say?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "33:26",
      "start": 2005.95,
      "text": "So it's, yeah, there's, there's a couple of big ones, like always, you always have your, you know, Pepsi and, and Cola, they got, we got the big ones, right? The, the Coke versus Pepsi. So you have like Coinbase and BitPay, these are some of the big, payment processors out there, but there really is a lot of little ones, you know, the, if you, if you Google, you can find there's, there's really a lot of little ones out there, and it's, it's a competitive"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "33:56",
      "start": 2035.59,
      "text": "Community to help you there. And so, there, there's a whole, op-open source community that is actually building pre-payment processors as well, you know, so if you actually, you know, need help even starting a payment processor company, you know, so there is open source, solutions, white label solutions, something called, BTC Pay Server, where you can actually go and create your own merchant company, if, if you'd like to, if that's something that you'd wanna do, you can, you can just, create your own merchant company,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "34:24",
      "start": 2063.63,
      "text": "Receive crypto and accept crypto that way. But yeah, the, the space is sort of wide open right now, really is the wild west, it's early days. There will be, more pay, more merchant processors coming, pretty soon, but Coinbase and BitPay are really the big ones right now."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "34:39",
      "start": 2078.58,
      "text": "Yeah, yeah, fair points. Okay, how about other online Bitcoin services that exist? So, an example might be a blockchain explorer, or, or maybe Bitcoin statistics. Do you wanna comment a little bit on some of the key players in that area?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "34:57",
      "start": 2097.26,
      "text": "So, you know, there, there's a couple different sites that we like to go to to, to find things about the network, because remember, everything about Bitcoin pretty much is open. So, you can find statistics about the mempool, you can find statistics about the blocks, when they get created, how, all the transactions in the blocks. And so, you know, Blockchain dot com, has a lot of these statistics that you can go to. They have a lot of charts and information where you can find out all about, you know, the growth of the network and"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "35:27",
      "start": 2127.18,
      "text": "The transactions are up, the wallets are up, so it's, it's a very, very healthy network right now. And, again, all this information is open, so that, that's one of the big sites there is Blockchain dot com to be able to find that. And then, you know, there's lots of different, sites out there to view different prices of currencies. There's, there's really a whole bunch of them out there. And, I, I hope that, you know, this continues, this, this, Blockchain dot com is where you find all of the great charts, that, that a lot, that you might have seen come across your Twitter sphere."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "36:04",
      "start": 2163.82,
      "text": "Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay, let's now talk about the development teams in Bitcoin. So there's, you know, there's Bitcoin Core, but there are different implementations of Bitcoin. So could you just outline a little bit on that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "36:18",
      "start": 2178.34,
      "text": "Yeah, and that's a really, really important point for your listeners that, that I hope we can really drill here, drill down into, because this is an important thing to understand. Again, you know, Bitcoin truly is decentralized, and so it even is decentralized down to the implementation. So what that means is that there are different actually versions of Bitcoin, that people can run. So there are different software implementations. What happens is, is these different implementations run on different languages and run on different operating systems and run on different types of computers. And so, but they all adhere to still- The same rule sets, right? The same rule sets, that are enforced by the full nodes. So the main Bitcoin implementation is called Bitcoin Core. That's, that's the default implementation that, that was actually started by, Satoshi herself, right? So that is, what, what, what actually is still backwards compatible, going all the way back to the very first version. And backwards compatibility is something that's really, really, really important to, to Bitcoin Core. This is why it takes so long to get changes implemented into it. And so what happens is, is sometimes people Maybe not, don't, maybe don't wanna wait that long. They wanna have their own implementation, right, and do their own experiments. And this is great, so 'cause Bitcoin is open source, you can just fork it any time. And so for example, Blockstream, they have their own implementation of Bitcoin called Elements, right? That's what's really cool. They, they do all sorts of, different, Experimentations on that with their liquid side chain, you know, with confidential transactions and confidential assets, all sorts of cool stuff, with that. So that's a different implementation there, but, you know, and then there's different languages, 'cause, you know, Bitcoin Core is in C++, C++, right? So there's, there's implementations of Bitcoin for Java, there's implementations for Bitcoin for C# for example, Nicolas Doier, who, I mentioned earlier, btp server, he created that as well, but"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "38:05",
      "start": 2284.92,
      "text": "And Bitcoin. And so, you know, they, they, they, it's a-- well, that's more of a library on top of, of, of the Bitcoin implementation, but there's libraries as well on top of these implementations. There's different, libraries that you can choose from. So it, it really gets really vast and, and, really spread out of all these different types of people that are, running their different versions of Bitcoin or running, different, new features on Bitcoin. But again, the important thing to remember across"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "38:35",
      "start": 2315.02,
      "text": "All adhering to, the rules that are enforced by the full nodes that, that, and again, anybody can run and download to make sure that they're running their version of Bitcoin. So it's really cool to see this, these, this, this really decentralized approach to protocol development. Everybody's got their own opinions and their own ideas and their own languages, and they can all, work together, con-continuously. we, we see the harmony, the harmony in all of these different implementations because sometimes, something, somebody has an idea on one What we're doing, we're gonna do it that way, and so they can make an upgrade to their own implementation, and in that way, you know, we're all sort of working on Bitcoin together, in our own way, and that's what's really, one of the really cool things about this, this open source, free open source development on this decentralized protocol."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "39:20",
      "start": 2360.3,
      "text": "Excellent, yeah, I like that explanation. It's a really nice way to outline that there are different implementations, but we are-- they're sort of interoperable and they kind of work together in that way to help, you know, build on top of Bitcoin. Now, one other area I thought would be great to get you to comment on, Jeffrey, is FinTech versus FinUI. Can you outline a little bit about? What you mean when you say that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "39:46",
      "start": 2386.12,
      "text": "Yeah, so, you know, I've tweeted this out, probably a couple times, you know, at this point, but to me, really, at this point, fintech, you know, this is-- there's sort of a whole industry in Silicon Valley about this, you know, called this, quote-unquote, fintech. really, it's, it, like, for example, like PayPal and Venmo and things like that, they're calling this thing fintech, but to me, what I like Old engine that's been running since the seventies. This is what all the traditional infrastructure is built upon, literally mainframe '70s software, all the stuff on Wall Street, a lot of the banks' mainframes, a lot of this technology, that, that, you know, we, we put fresh user interface, o-fresh, user interfaces over like WellsFargo dot com, right? These, these interfaces, these apps, we're like, \"Oh, this is fintech, this is, this is new technology,\" and it's not, it's just user"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "40:44",
      "start": 2443.8,
      "text": "No centralized technology that really hasn't evolved since the seventies. The lat-- the last new actual, quote-unquote, fintech innovation probably was credit cards, right? That, before that, that's maybe checks. That, that's really about it. There's only been a couple of these, quote-unquote, fintech innovations. The rest of it really at this point is just user interfaces, you know, people creating apps over the top of them, people maybe creating games, it, it's just, really a fresh coat of paint over the same, same For people, so they can really, get grounded and understand what, what's happening here in the marketplace. We really are having this new, what I like to call, this global financial renaissance, this new way that humanity's thinking about money. It's important to separate that, right? This new understanding of money with this, this, with, with something like Bitcoin and blockchain, from this, PayPal, Venmo, you know, old school, what they call fintech way of thinking, where again, they're just slapping new coats of paint over the same A new car, this is about building a new infrastructure, something that we can, something that's more fair, something that's more open, something that we can really build an entirely new, you know, economy of scale over the top of. Because this, as Andreas likes to say, you know, Bitcoin blockchain really is the third wave of the internet. This is the fifth layer of abstraction of money, the most abstracted layer that we've ever had, the most sound money we've ever had. So it's important to differentiate that from, you know, from the traditional stuff that,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "42:15",
      "start": 2534.75,
      "text": "yeah. And yeah, I like the point you're making around really dis-distinguishing Bitcoin as a true innovation versus some of the other- You know, quote unquote innovation that's really more just surface layer. okay, so let's now shill your programming with Bitcoin course. So Jeffrey, tell us, tell us about the course, and what can we learn? Yes, we love, we love to"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "42:38",
      "start": 2557.99,
      "text": "shill. it's a-- This, this course is a-- No, this is a really, I think a really important course, for the community itself, because, you know, I, I really was inspired by, by Jimmy's course, Jimmy Song out there is"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "42:54",
      "start": 2574.22,
      "text": "Turning out developer after developer, you know, into the ecosystem, and I just think that, that's amazing. And, you know, as Elizabeth Stark likes to say, we, we need to scale Jimmy Song. Like, we need to scale him, but we can't 'cause he's a human. And so, what, you know, I just thought that there might, might be some opportunity there to get some more, developers working with Bitcoin. But the problem is, the, for me, is that I'm just a web developer. Like, I'm just an application developer."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "43:24",
      "start": 2604.38,
      "text": "That, that Jimmy is teaching people literally the mathematics behind some of this cryptography, elliptic curve cryptography, kind of crazy, crazy stuff, and I just think that that's great, but that's such a specialized and niche field that there's-- it leaves a lot of people like myself and maybe other C# developers out there, sort of, you know, wondering because we, we wanna, we wanna work with Bitcoin. There's a lot of people out there I think that wanna work with Bitcoin, a lot of developers that really wanna work with Bitcoin, but get intimidated by some of this protocol"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "43:54",
      "start": 2634.28,
      "text": "earlier from, Nick, Nicolas Doye, the C- specifically for C# developers, we can start, learning how to integrate Bitcoin into our applications without actually working on Bitcoin. And so that's a really big, differentiation there between, Jimmy's course and mine is that Jimmy's is for, teaching protocol developers how to work on Bitcoin, and my course is for teaching application developers how to work with Bitcoin, specifically the NBitcoin library. And so I think that, this is important to get more and more developers working with Bitcoin. We Just protocol developers, but you know, even Elizabeth herself said, and Matt Corelo and other developers have said, \"Look, there has to be an order of magnitude more application developers out there than protocol developers, 'cause we need people building stuff on Bitcoin, we need people building on Bitcoin. That's what's really important.\" And so I think that that's something that, the community needs, the ecosystem needs is more developers, and that's what we're trying to do. me and Nicola, who is the, who's teaching the course, again, we Work with this nBitcoin library to be able to begin, integrating Bitcoin into their applications. And it's, it's a two-day course. You know, it's just like Jimmy's where we, we kinda throw a lot at you in, in two days. It's kind of like a full, blown college course in two days. So you learn, you learn a lot. But we, we make sure to get, that you have notes, we make sure to give you, you know, all the slides and, and all the source code and good things like that. So"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "45:24",
      "start": 2724.24,
      "text": "Happy and, we were all pretty impressed with, with the knowledge that Nick has, in the space 'cause he, he does so much work in the space and continues to, to do a lot of open source work, and so we really thank Nick for that, and, yeah, we really hope to get more people working with Bitcoin."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "45:39",
      "start": 2738.8,
      "text": "Right, yeah, that's great. And so who should apply? How much experience should someone have before they apply for the course?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "45:46",
      "start": 2745.67,
      "text": "Sure. And so maybe I should also maybe mention the name of the course. So, the name of the course is programmingwithbitcoin.com. And, it's, it's, it really is, you know, a passion project of mine and Nick's to be able to get more developers in here, and we really don't, require you to have too much knowledge. we actually, maybe only require you to have six C# so just basic C# knowledge, and of course, you can find plenty of, of, of websites, course, courses, tutorials, videos on the internet. You know, my favorite site is a learn cs dot org, learn cs dot org. That's a free site where you can go and learn, C# right in the web browser. You don't even have to, you know, download anything, read a book, nothing. You just follow the tutorials. So, you don't require a whole lot of knowledge there. But, we, That we teach you the fundamentals of Bitcoin and blockchain as well, so that you're prepared. So we teach you the fundamentals for about proof of work, about running a full node, all that good stuff, so that you are fully prepared to, to receive the information in this course, and so that we can just onboard more and more developers to make it that much easier to onboard more people. So we don't require much from you, just a little bit of C# experience, and, we can take it from there."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "47:01",
      "start": 2820.7,
      "text": "Excellent. Yeah, I think this is a really exciting space to be in because this is the future of money, so it's now a great time to go and learn more and be able to build products and software within that space. So that's why I think it's a great idea, for any of the listeners who are interested, go and, look this up. So what's the-- I think the website is programmingwithbitcoin dot com, right? That's correct. Yes. That's the one. Okay, excellent. did you have any other comments on, programming with Bitcoin or, let's now actually, talk about, you know, where do you, what's the outlook for, you know, the Bitcoin ecosystem over the next year or two, let's say?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "47:43",
      "start": 2863.3,
      "text": "Sure. So, you know, it's really looking-- the, the fundamentals of Bitcoin are just really looking great. There's just, there's more papers about Bitcoin than ever, there's more podcasts about Bitcoin, there's more activity, there's more liquidity"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "47:58",
      "start": 2877.75,
      "text": "Putting out, you know, options and futures, and there's talk of ETFs. So the fundamentals of Bitcoin really have never been better, but specifically like what everybody's sort of focused on within the Bitcoin ecosystem right now is the Lightning Network. the Lightning Network really is this order of magnitude scaling solution that Bitcoin needs in order to onboard the rest of the world eventually. So it's, it's really early days right now, but, you know, the Lightning Network was launched earlier this year, and it continues to just grow by orders of magnitude. It continues to grow exponentially, in the amount of channels and, and liquidity that's, that's within the Lightning Network. And so I think that, in my opinion, by the end of next year, I think the entire ecosystem at, at that point will have integrated"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "48:40",
      "start": 2920.3,
      "text": "Means all the wallets, all the exchanges, they'll all be, you know, running over the top of the Lightning Network because it is faster, better, and cheaper, and that's what's really important, you know, it's economically, it makes economic sense, and it's good for the network, and, it's, it's really, really great. So I think that that is going to be, the next, the next big step for, for the ecosystem is for that to be integrated, because then after that, going into twenty twenty, twenty twenty-one The companies and, and applications, and we can start building this, this whole new application layer on top of Bitcoin, you know, within this Lightning ecosystem and see all sorts of app, applications that we can't even really imagine right now. It's like almost trying to imagine, you know, Facebook and, you know, and YouTube in nineteen ninety four. Like some people did, right? There was a couple of visionaries, but most of us were like, \"Wow, just completely baffled.\" And so this is the kind of stuff that we're going to make possible,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "49:39",
      "start": 2979.16,
      "text": "Big, and of course, by twenty twenty-four, at that point, you know, governments are holding Bitcoin, it's, almost everything is, is, will, will, will have flipped over the, to the Bitcoin infrastructure at that point. And by twenty twenty-eight, right? It's all over. It'll be like talking like the dollar. And it'll be like talking about the dollar. And so, yeah, it's, it's just a whole lot of, you know, it's really early days right now. I try to tell everybody, and I'll definitely tell your Does, really I like to tell people that like every couple of months is about a year, you know, in, in the outside world, you know, it really isn't, Bitcoin isn't just move so fast. And so, I, I just try to tell people that it moves fast, but hey, it's very, very early still, and there's plenty of, we need plenty of people. I mean, I hope your listeners know Stephan that we need developers, we need designers, we need business people, we need it all, you know, Bitcoin needs it all"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "50:39",
      "start": 3039.04,
      "text": "World-changing technology. This is some real stuff that can actually make a difference. This isn't like Hope Coin or, or some of the other blockchain projects that are out there. This isn't, you know, VR. This is actual stuff for people to, you know, that saves lives, that bl- that is able to save the, your, your value, actually store your value for your children, for your children's children, to have an unconfiscatable asset that nobody can freeze, that you can actually save your wealth in, that can't be printed away. And"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "51:09",
      "start": 3069.04,
      "text": "If you want to be in the latest and the greatest stuff, this space is great to be. This is a really hot, hot space. There, there's a lot of room, for, for people to come in right now. They're paying pretty good salaries, and, you know, I just hope that, we can continue to build this really, this global financial renaissance together."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "51:24",
      "start": 3084.23,
      "text": "Excellent stuff. Yeah, I like that, Vortex or Jeffrey, that, that, that's a great way to finish up. So I think what we'll do now is just link back to all of your channels and your links. So guys, if you wanna find Vortex, look him up on Twitter. His handle is at the one vortex, all spelled out in, you know, words. look up the Cryptocast Network on YouTube, and also the website for that is cryptocast dot network. And like- Lastly, look up Jeffrey's Programming with Bitcoin course, and so the website for that is programmingwithbitcoin dot com. is there anything else that you'd like to point out or any final comments, Jeffrey?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_2",
      "time": "52:06",
      "start": 3125.96,
      "text": "No, I think that's it. I had a great time, Stefan. I hope we can do this again. I hope maybe we can, do some more stuff on my network as well, with you in the future, Stefan. I'd love to, you know, have you on a couple of my shows, and I just can't thank you enough for the content that In the space, and so I just, you know, definitely thank, thank you so much."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "vortex",
      "time": "52:28",
      "start": 3147.95,
      "text": "All right, well, thanks very much. Excellent. it's been a pleasure to have you on the show today, Jeffrey. Thank you. Thank you so much, man. Have a good day. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Vortex. We tried to target it a little bit more towards Bitcoin newbies. As always, you can find my show notes on the website stephanlivera dot com. Just go on the website and search s l p nineteen on the site. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. It's a great way for you to learn and to keep yourself updated on what's happening in Bitcoin. Also, I appreciate if you can share the podcast with your friends. And lastly, you can come and find me on Twitter, my handle. Handle is at stephan livera. Thanks guys, that's it from me, and I'll speak to you next time."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "53:10",
      "start": 3189.67,
      "text": "Thanks for listening. You can find the show notes on stephanlivera dot com, and please share the podcast on social media."
    }
  ]
}