{ "episodeId": "SLP197", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "stephen_cole_of_the_oc_bitcoin_meetup": { "name": "Stephen Cole of the OC Bitcoin Meetup", "role": "guest", "tag": "STEPHEN" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 9.16, "text": "Hi and welcome to the Stefan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today for episode one hundred and ninety-seven with Stephen Cole, we're talking about how to run your local Bitcoin meetup. But first, a special message." }, { "speaker": "stephen_cole_of_the_oc_bitcoin_meetup", "time": "00:22", "start": 22.11, "text": "Distinguished listeners, ladies and gentlemen, and our host, Stefan Livera, thank you for having me here today. I am I'm particularly delighted to be here on this occasion. We meet on a podcast known for Bitcoin knowledge, praxeology, and expertise in Austrian economics, and we stand in need of all three, but we meet in an hour of change and challenge, in a decade of hope and fear, in an age of both knowledge and ignorance. The greater our Bitcoin knowledge increases The greater our ignorance unfolds, despite the striking fact that almost all of the economists in this world are misguided Keynesians, despite the fact that the monetary premiums of assets are skyrocketing while the Federal Reserve continues its Criminal mismanagement of the economy unabated. Despite that, Bitcoin will go to the moon. Bitcoin will go to the moon. Bitcoin will go to the moon in this decade and do the other things. Not because it is easy money, but because it is hard. Because the goal of sound money will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills to our listeners. If you'd like to join us on the phone, visit" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:37", "start": 97.14, "text": "This show also brought to you by Unchained Capital, Bitcoin native financial services. Are you sitting on a stack of bitcoins and you haven't really thought about ways to improve your security? Well, Unchained Capital offer multi-signature vaults, so you can create a two of three signature vault using two hardware wallets, and Unchained Capital is the third key in that scenario, so you can split up your keys, it can give you a little bit more security as well. If you aren't Not sure how to set it up? You can go to the Unchained website and they've got a vault concierge service as well as loan specialist who can help you out if you want to put up some Bitcoin and get US dollar, so that way you can get liquidity without actually selling your bitcoins. So go and check them out. The website there is unchained dash capital dot com. Now for Australian listeners, did you know you can buy Bitcoin with your superannuation? With a Bitcoin friendly self managed super fund, you can. New Brighton Capital have step by step written and video instruction Instructions and live ongoing support that streamline the process in a way that's fast, affordable, easier than you think, and no one has control over your super but you. As long as you're comfortable making the investment decisions, New Brighton Capital looks after all the accounting and reporting for the fund. For a free twenty minute consultation, head over to newbrightoncapital dot com and don't forget to use the code LIVERA for a credit off the monthly fees. That's newbrightoncapital dot com helping you own Bitcoin in your superannuation. Lastly, a special open source shout out For a new project by my friends Matt Odell and Dennis Ryman from BTC Pay, BitcoinDevList dot com. So think about ways to contribute to Bitcoin developers. So if you're running Bitcoin Core or you're using wallets or Lightning or CoinJoin, that relies on open source code, and oftentimes the creators and contributors of this do it on the side of their day job. So think of it like you're helping protect your Bitcoin investment. Go there, pick a few devs to support, and the beauty of it is if you want a certain project or thing, you can donate to someone. Working on that. So I chose Fanquake, fellow Australian, Bitcoin core maintainer, Evan Kelludis, working on Zeus and some Bitcoin security and educational stuff, and Luke Charles for his work on maintaining open source libraries, Bitcoin education, and various wallet contributions. So go to bitcoin-devlist dot com. Here's the interview. Stephen, I'm a fan of your work. I think you're a really great principled Bitcoiner. You're doing a lot of stuff around building the meetup scene. Welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "03:58", "start": 238.1, "text": "Stefan, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate the kind words and huge fan of the pod and, and of all your work, everything you've been doing for Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:06", "start": 246.34, "text": "So look, just for the people who don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "04:12", "start": 251.51, "text": "Sure. so I've been in the Bitcoin space since around 2013. Prior to that, most of my career revolved around web technology, so I kind of came at Bitcoin from the tech side, you could say. studied computer science at university and then spent the first few years of my career in the enterprise tech space. So I was an engineer at eBay, kind of focused on Linux back-end systems, and then made my way through a couple of startups. Startup companies, I was managing cloud infrastructure and what's now commonly referred to as site reliability engineering or DevOps teams, for a couple of startups, cloud infrastructure company called Cloudscaling that was ultimately acquired by EMC, and then, an AI, slash deep learning company called Nirvana Systems that later became part of Intel. so kind of got, you know, a variety of exposure in Silicon Valley tech. seen tiny scrappy startups, big leviathan, corporations. And, and then around two thousand eight, so, you know, I kind of started my full-time work career around two thousand eight, and about that same time, I became exposed to libertarianism through Ron Paul's campaign and through, the writings of Ayn Rand, and a lot of that really resonated with me. And in hindsight, when I look- Back in my journey and my discovery of Bitcoin, I feel very grateful for that timing. It feels serendipitous because I kind of had this exposure to tech and to the notion of software eating the world, and that made me open-minded about things like Bitcoin. but I also was already very passionate about individual liberty and even the idea of Austrian economics, you know, from Ron Paul's campaign, I became intrigued with a lot of that, started reading Bastiat and Mere Rothbard And the idea of separation of money and state is often difficult for people to kind of digest or figure out how to feel about, but I feel like I got a bit of a head start on that. a lot of times Bitcoin is the first exposure to that idea for many people and it's a lot to take in. but thankfully I kind of had the opportunity to get comfortable with that and to genuinely believe that's a great idea and something to strive for, and it was just a matter of looking for- How practical this is, how can we possibly achieve it? And so then later when I ultimately got exposed to Bitcoin, I thought, \"Wow, you know, maybe this could be the thing that really helps us realize, realize that and, you know, lead to this more peaceful and prosperous world. So, yeah, in hindsight, yeah, very fortunate to, to kind of have that combination of perspectives when I, made me a little more open-minded to some of the value propositions of Bitcoin. But of course, even having that, it takes a while to- Figure out what in the world this Bitcoin thing is, but, but that's, you know, it's been a fun journey and that's my passion for sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:19", "start": 439.03, "text": "Yeah, it's great hearing your story. I see a lot of parallels with my own story there because you and I both came to Bitcoin already being libertarians basically, so that already gives you this massive leg up in terms of understanding what's going on there. And then also you had a technology background, so you were kind of already into the technology, so you were a little bit more- More, I guess, savvy to get into that, and that, that can be difficult for new people when they're coming in, because you sort of, you need a little bit of both to, to really get what's going on here. So I think that is also why it's so important to have a good meet up scene, because right now, obviously, there's all this corona stuff and s- in some places around the world, we're coming out of lockdown, and I think it's a great time now to really build the meet up scene, and I know that's something you've been" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:11", "start": 491.23, "text": "So, so yeah, so today we're gonna chat a little bit about how you set up your Bitcoin Meetup and why you should do it and why you should get involved if you're not already. So, can you tell us a little bit about your involvement with the, your local Bitcoin Meetup?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "08:27", "start": 506.72, "text": "Absolutely. So, I'm super passionate about meetups and about just the idea of building and growing communities, especially local, regional, things. You know, I was active on Bitcoin Twitter for a while. And, you know, for many years since at least twenty fourteen, probably twenty thirteen, and, and that is great to be able to connect digitally with people who are so into this world, but nothing beats the enthusiasm and the energy, I think, of just being in the same room and really having rich, high bandwidth conversations with people, about all of this. And so going to conferences is an example of that, but, but I think even just local free meetups like the one that we established in North... Orange County. So I founded the Orange County Bitcoin Network, and that's a Meetup in Orange County, Southern California, close to the Los Angeles area. it's only a little more than a year old, so it was founded in May of twenty nineteen. Our first event was actually Bitcoin Pizza Day in twenty nineteen, so May twenty-second, and started very small and very simply, and it's been well received, and we've grown a lot even in just that year and some change. And it kind of, it was born out of, you know, not only that desire to build community, but also after moving from the San Francisco Bay Area to Southern California a couple years ago, I found a lot of blockchain technology meetups and a lot of cryptocurrency meetups, but there wasn't anything that really was focused around Bitcoin, and I felt like there was a gap there. around the same time, there was another highly technical meetup that was, being founded In LA. So Andrew Yang runs BitDevs LA, and that is a fantastic meet up, they do this Socratic seminar style, so it's like code reviews and really getting into the guts of the technology, and that is wonderful, but, but I saw, you know, the opportunity for something specific to a slightly different region in Orange County and, slightly more broad. So a lot of my interest too is in economics and just, you know, the many- Many facets of Bitcoin in addition to the technology, and that was really the birth of the OC Bitcoin Network. And then others have joined and been a huge help since then. So Brian Harrington is a co-organizer. He was at the very first event that we ever had last year and has just come in and added a ton of value. he's really the, the heart and soul of the meetup in many ways. And to anyone who's thinking about starting a meetup, that's been one of the biggest learnings for me is Is just start very small and very simply. So, you know, I registered it on meetup dot com, and I would recommend that as a first step, that, you know, go and like pick a name and register it on meetup dot com, and then just get over that psychological hurdle of beginning something. And after that, you can often be surprised by how quickly good things will happen. so, you know, just our first event was seven people at a pizza place. casually chatting about Bitcoin, but through those conversations, you're able to kind of see who, like, who shows up and who is who and who's passionate about what area of Bitcoin, and oftentimes there's just this pent-up energy that people have for it, and they really are hungry for a way to help and a way to contribute and build and add value to groups like this. And so as an organizer, if you can just really keep an eye open for that and keep a pulse on it and figure out how to- to, how to channel that energy and work together and collaborate with the members, then that can take it to places far beyond what you'd be able to alone." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:20", "start": 739.51, "text": "I think there is an importance there to just starting something small, even if it's small, you-- because many listeners, you might be in some town where you are concerned that there's not many other bitcoiners in your area, but if you start something and you try and bring your friends along and you publish it online, you might be able to build a group, and it just takes consistency, wouldn't you say?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "12:40", "start": 759.67, "text": "A hundred percent. Yeah, you can build it up and kind of overwhelm yourself with questions in your head, but I would say just get past those and start very small and simple. I, I remember doing the mental exercise before registering the meetup of, \"Well, like, what is failure like in this scenario? What am I so afraid of if this doesn't go well? maybe nobody comes and it's me, eating a slice of pizza and drinking a beer by myself, and that's not the end of the world, you know? I like beer and I like pizza, and if even one person shows up Conversation about Bitcoin at the very least. So the, it, it's kind of an example of that concept that some people like Naval Ravikant, for example, talks a lot about, doing as many things in your life as you can that are opportunities with asymmetric returns. and I think some of the examples that he cites are like, you know, go on many first dates, start a business, invest in startups, start a podcast, start a YouTube channel, start a blog. The, the time, it's almost like a call option on your time, right? It's a, it's a strategy in which- The downside is fixed, but the upside is unbounded. Like, who knows, you know, if it, if it doesn't take off, if it just, if you faceplant and it just doesn't work for whatever reason, then maybe you lose some amount of time or some small amount of money, but you can really easily quantify what that is and you can decide, okay, you know, that's not a big deal and I'm okay with it. But if it works, then it can just turn into something wonderful that you don't anticipate and, and so I am a huge advocate in Doing that in your life as much as you can, and I think meetups are a fantastic example of one way to, to, to accomplish that," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:25", "start": 865.07, "text": "you know? Right. And when you were starting the meetup, how did you get the word out there? How did you tell the community? What were some of the ways that you employed the methods?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "14:35", "start": 874.95, "text": "Yeah, once you've got, so step one is definitely pick a name and register the organization on Meetup dot com. after that, I do recommend just grabbing the so- whatever social media handles you want, even if you don't plan on using them initially. if, as long as it's not too expensive, then, you know, registering a domain name for some website that may exist in the future isn't a bad idea either. And really beyond that, I, I had been act- On Bitcoin Twitter and had a decent following there, so, so that was huge, just, you know, leveraging, leveraging that and connecting with local people who are also on Twitter and who were early attendees of the event so that they can help spread the word. That I would say was the most successful marketing channel for us, but there are additional platforms too. So within, you know, Meetups, search engine, if you tag the Meetup correctly and, you know, have the word Bitcoin, or even if you wanna put the word like blockchain or cryptocurrency in it, just to kind of cast a wide net, even if it is Bitcoin focused, then, then that can be really useful to hook people and help Meetup drive traffic as well. But I'd say for us, the most success was through" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:50", "start": 949.61, "text": "And I guess I'll just put out the offer now, just for any listeners, if you wanna set up a meetup and you're worried you don't have a following, just DM me, I will help you retweet that up if you're starting a new meetup or you're trying to get some people to find out about it, because I'm, I really want people to get involved with their local Bitcoin scene, because I think that is how we teach new coiners and help people kind of avoid the pitfalls, if you will. so tell us a little bit about how you went about finding venues," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "16:19", "start": 979.15, "text": "I'll just +1 that offer myself. I think that's a really cool idea, and I would echo that my DMs are open if anyone out there wants guidance on starting a meetup or if you are starting one and just want help amplifying the message, I would be happy to as well. In terms of finding the venues, that there are a couple strategies there. So Meetup dot com is owned, or at least was owned by WeWork. I don't remember if WeWork sold Meetup, but regardless, I believe they still have, kind of a collaborative offering where if you have a, a group that's officially registered on Meetup dot com, then if there happens to be a WeWork in your area, then you can use that for some amount of time for free. So I would explore that and see if that offering is available. that may not be applicable. If you're in a smaller town or smaller city, but I had a lot of success in actually just looking on Meetup dot com at other groups in the area, so groups that were, you know, software engineering meetups or, or fintech meetups, and just kind of, you know, perusing and seeing where are these people meeting, where are they getting together, and sometimes those might be enterprise technology headquarters, sometimes they might be, venture capital. Studios, incubators in the area, or, even some places, you know, like public spaces, like public libraries will sometimes have rooms. Maybe that sounds a little bit less sexy, but it's certainly available out there and fine as a starting point. there are often- Like often companies want to show goodwill to groups that are exploring technology, and I remember when I was an employee at eBay, they would let, meetups occur, they would offer certain rooms in their space at their corporate headquarters for meetups. So, you know, like Twitch, Amazon, Facebook, if any of those offices are near you, even auxiliary campuses, I'd say it's worth reaching out to employees either through LinkedIn, or, you know, through some contact that you can find to- See if there's something there. But, but yeah, exploring the s-similar types of groups on Meetup dot com was where we had the most success. We ultimately found a space that's been great. They, we work with the Eureka building primarily in Irvine, California, have a great partnership with them, and they've been very generous in letting us meet for a heavy discount beyond, you know, what, what they typically charge, for events in their space." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:46", "start": 1126.36, "text": "That's great. And sometimes even bars will allow you to host a meetup there. And So for us in Bitcoin Sydney, we often use a, there's a bar where we usually get it on a night that's like an off-peak night of the week, so say like a Wednesday, and we're bringing them traffic, right? So they'll bring, you know, people might buy drinks and food and so on. So that's another angle as well that, listeners can try to employ to get a venue going." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:12", "start": 1152.15, "text": "Yeah, that's a great point, and I think starting a dialogue with the owner of whatever venue you end up with, even if it is a bar or restaurant, is a fantastic approach. Just to kind of let them know what you're about, to set expectations, and to show as a gesture of goodwill, like, \"Hey, you know, we, we appreciate the ability to meet here, and we are, you know, passionate about-- We have a lot of people in this group who are maybe passionate about it, or we could grow into that someday, and we want to try to, like, this to be mutually beneficial. So we would like to drive business your direction, and that is usually appreciated, and often they'll go out of their way to help.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:50", "start": 1189.9, "text": "Yeah, that's really Important as well to offer some different things as well in terms of, presentations, casual meetups and so on. So for us in the Bitcoin Sydney scene, we've got our, well, in, in non-corona times, we normally do like once per month as a normal meetup, and there might be some presentations, and then now what we also have is the once a month online Socratic, which is a little bit more of a technical focused discussion, and then we would have periodic just kind of casual drinks meetups as well. What's the sort of structure that you're employing for OC Bitcoin Network?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "20:27", "start": 1227.04, "text": "Yeah, that structure seems really nice. we've typically had a monthly cadence with our events, and so originally those were in-person events in Irvine, California. During the last few months of COVID, we've transitioned online. that has been kind of a funny transition for us because we're trying to just figure out the right format, you know, like where does-- where is the line at which you are still a meet-up? Meetup and can keep it collaborative without it just being this more like, is it a webinar, is it a podcast, or is it a meetup and, and how do you maintain some of that, that meetup collaborative sense? So we've tried to do that through, just offering very rich real-time Q and A. It's like if we do a live stream, we try to encourage our Meetup, our regular core Meetup attendees to be in there. We interact in real time and keep an eye on the chat, and that has, that's- Seems like a decent balance, as opposed to a very large Zoom call or a very large Google Hangout where it can be a challenge when it's completely virtual, just because you can't break off into subgroups and have side conversations, right? It's kind of everyone like if you had forty people on one call and only one person can speak at a time, then it, it just gets difficult to manage the, the communication in the forum sometimes. So finding that balance can be a little bit tricky, but we- We've, we've typically tried for monthly cadences where, wrapping up right now, a series on full nodes. so one thing I would recommend too is trying to schedule events in advance if you can. We had a lot of success when we were able to get together Brian and I and schedule things, you know, two to three months out and give people an idea of the dates on, and times on which events will be occurring and the type of presenter so that they can make sure to carve out time in their schedule and all that. And kind of build the hype around it. we've done a series on full nodes recently. Zelco from the Ronin Dojo project has been a huge advocate of that and, and big help in getting that off the ground. So we've been focused for the last few weeks on, reviewing different Bitcoin full node implementations and kind of the trade-offs and the target user that's appropriate for each. We got the final installment of that coming up, soon, which is gonna be- Be on Ronin, and after that, we're probably gonna go back to a mixture of, in-person events as soon as they are allowed, but kind of trying to, to balance economics and business and as well as the technical, hands-on engineering-centric material." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:13", "start": 1392.92, "text": "Right, and it's also fair to say that calling out to a very highly technical audience, that's a very small percentage of people, compared to the overall number of people who will be using Bitcoin in, in the years to come. So I think it's important to sort of have things that appeal to the different groups, because maybe the technical people don't really care so much for the pol-politics and aspects of it, and, you know, so I think you just have to try to, be aware of that and try to offer some different, present-- different themed present- as well, so that people have something different that they can learn about or that they can chat about as well." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "23:48", "start": 1428.36, "text": "For sure. And, and advice that I would give there is to start very generic, like a, a good first event is just, you know, meet, meet at a bar, meet at a restaurant, and, you know, casual Bitcoin mixer. I think that's a perfect way to just get an idea of the landscape in terms of who your attendees might be and what their interests are. And if you happen to find that you have a lot of technical people who are interested interested in presenting on something or in attending a presentation on something, then, you know, absolutely harness that and go for it, and so that's just, those mixers are like a good way to gauge interest. and then regardless of which route you end up going, try when you schedule the event to just give a clear idea in the event description of kind of the target audience. Like if it's going to be a technical presentation, just mention that in the event description so that if someone's really just not interested in that side of things, they don't show up and they're not snoozing. Like, like, you know, it kind of allows people to make a thoughtful decision about whether to opt in on a per-event basis." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:52", "start": 1491.62, "text": "Right, right, and I think it's also fair to say, it, it, it's probably a good idea to keep the presentations, relatively short and manageable and put in little breaks so people can break out and just chat as well if they want to, if they're, if you know, if they're not like that into this really technical topic and so on. And I, I think it's also about an important factor is also keeping the chat going through the month, let's say. So Bitcoin Sydney, we have a Telegram chat group, I know, there are lots of other ones out there. What do you guys use to sort of keep the chat going or keep the conversation going?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "25:28", "start": 1528.01, "text": "That's a great point. Yeah, we've got a Telegram group as well for LAOC Bitcoiners, and, that is just a, a nice way to keep that feeling of unity and keep, you know, the, the conversation going in between events, and then to advertise events when you do have them, just as an additional reminder in case they get lost in people's email inboxes. Telegram's been a huge success for us. We've, I've seen other organizers use Keybase. I like Keybase. A little better in terms of privacy, but it just, it does feel like, there's more of a, of a network effect to Telegram, at least among Bitcoiners right now and casual Bitcoiners, so that's been the, the one that we've seen the most success with." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:14", "start": 1574.04, "text": "I think another really cool part about having local Bitcoin meetups is people can find peer-to-peer trades and networking as well, and they can have this kind of family and friends trading network. Have you noticed that with OC Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "26:28", "start": 1588.01, "text": "Very much so, and that's something we even tried to incorporate into the program officially for our events. So we'll typically do evening events on a weeknight, like Thursdays, and, and I would recommend, you know, in terms of a regular cadence, if there is a particular night that works, just stick to it so people can, can get used to that rhythm. So like we would do Thursdays, from 6 PM to 8 PM, so two hour total duration for an event, and then the first thirty minutes are show up. Eat food, grab drinks, and, and we encourage peer-to-peer trading during that time. so we-- it's nice because the meetup group itself isn't officially, you know, involved in any transactions, there's not any kind of, you know, regulatory danger there, but, but you can just kind of be the shelling point, right, for people to come together, and they know that if they have Bitcoin that they are interested in selling or if they're interested in buying Bitcoin, then there's a good chance that they might be able to connect with someone. In, and maybe develop a semi-trusted relationship with someone in person, and, and that's been well-received. We've done, you know, there have been, Few, I don't know any volume numbers, but we've certainly had trades occur at our meetups, and we hope to continue to foster that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:47", "start": 1667.45, "text": "Right, and another topic there as well related is if somebody wants to use BISQ, B I S Q. Typically, you need a little bit of Bitcoin to get started. So if you're a new coiner and you don't have any, well, how do you get your first bitcoins without KYC? Well, this is one option, and it just gives them another option there." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "28:08", "start": 1687.59, "text": "Totally. And something that we haven't done with our meetup, but we have been evaluating, is potentially having the organization be more of an official vendor to buy or sell Bitcoin. So there are solutions like EzTeco, or, you know, ATM providers like LibertyX, and they let you register as a merchant and more officially sell Bitcoin to people who are interested. And, we haven't pulled the trigger. Finger on that, and there are, you know, you sign up, and there are terms and conditions that you have to comply with in terms of performing KYC on the people who do it, but, but it is worth evaluating, and just depending on your circumstance, that could be a good way to kind of have some baseline of liquidity guaranteed available in your region, but at the very least, facilitating and encouraging peer-to-peer trading is, is wonderful." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:04", "start": 1743.91, "text": "And so let's talk a little bit about teaching new coiners. So do you have any tips about how you teach a new coiner when, let's say, someone brings a friend along and they're new to Bitcoin? What are some of the typical things that you might, teach or explain to them? Or are there any tips that you've found just from having them sort of soak up the discussion?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "29:24", "start": 1764.34, "text": "Yeah, I think a really good- Characteristic or thing to strive for as a meetup organizer is being high empathy and kind of remembering the different contexts with which people might be approaching Bitcoin. So it's, you know, obviously such a big topic that depending on the lens you have when you're examining it, it can either resonate with you and seem really cool and spark your interest, or it can be kind of meh and just not too exciting. And so really gauging- And new people come, like where are they coming from? Are they technical? Are they non-technical? Are they interested in finance? Are they interested in money or economics? And then really, like, thoughtfully kind of crafting, a description of Bitcoin for them to capture their interest or to lead them on a good path is a good challenge that I would encourage any event organizer to, to kind of put upon themselves. And the more thoughtfully that you can do that, the more successful it is Is, and in, you know, a metric that I love, I don't track it very formally, but amount of new hodlers created and amount of sort of new sats stacked that have originated from people getting into Bitcoin through our meetups is super important to me. Like that, if I could quantify that, then, then that would be what I would say I care most about is, is just how many new people you can really get skin in the game in this and help them understand." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:53", "start": 1853.06, "text": "Yeah, and, another thing that I've found with local meetups is- Is it helps in terms of teaching the self custody culture and learning, okay, why is it important that I should withdraw from the exchange? Why is it important that I should learn how to run a Bitcoin node? Those are all aspects that I think people might come to the meetup thinking, \"Oh yeah, I'm just holding my coins on the exchange, right? That's all good, right?\"" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "31:16", "start": 1875.74, "text": "Yeah, yeah, very, very much so. it's a good way to have, to thoughtfully elaborate on some of the otherwise confusing memes that people might encounter on Twitter, right? So if they're, maybe they're not on Twitter at all, and it's easy to forget how many people aren't. but even if they are, it can be confusing without all the history, you know, to know what these memes mean. not your keys, not your coins, running a full node, the, the what and why behind all of those concepts is where meetups really shine as an opportunity to elaborate. And so having a trusted set of recommendations that you've kind of thought through in advance to point- New users to, as, as almost a path to onboard them. So if they want to, you know, buy with KYC and kind of dollar cost average and, you know, eventually withdraw, then, you know, maybe the toolset is something like River dot com or Swan Bitcoin and, and then ultimately they're withdrawing to like a hardware wallet or some multi-sig solution like Casa. But having a set of solutions that you as the organizer kind of understand and have- Somewhat vetted and being able to articulate those to users depending on their level of technical expertise and goal is, is really great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:38", "start": 1957.97, "text": "And how, how are you handling the whole question when you're teaching a new coiner? Do you bring in, do you bring them onto Bitcoin only, or do you also talk about the Lightning Network, or do you sort of leave the Lightning Network stuff for later?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "32:51", "start": 1970.66, "text": "We haven't emphasized the Lightning Network too much in our events, but that- Hasn't really been any conscious opposition to it. Personally, I'm very bullish on Lightning, I love Lightning, and we've had, you know, we had Nick Bhatia, while he was OpenNode, come down and give a presentation too, which, which was semi-Lightning related. so I think any technology that is- Built upon or anchored to Bitcoin in some way is fair game. Obviously, each organizer will draw the line in different places there and kind of, you know, what is, what is Bitcoin only, might differ, depending on who you talk to. so we, we try to avoid any just blatant altcoins, you know, we don't talk about Ethereum or Ripple or, or any of those, and we will jokingly put, you know, B-Cash deposits here, signs above- trash cans at our meetups to, to kind of, you know, get, get people, get people thinking or make them laugh and make them curious. but, but overall, I, I've tried to take an approach of just, you know, emphasize the good and emphasize the positive, and I like that just kind of as a life approach, like rather than talk trash and kind of pull down alternatives, just find something that you love and that you think is good and amplify why you believe it's awesome and share that with others. And And so for, for the most part, you know, I, I certainly have been known to talk trash about altcoins, but, but for the most part, we just try to keep a positive, healthy emphasis on Bitcoin, and I think any technology, like even Liquid or, or Lightning, whether it's a smart contract kind of layer on top of Bitcoin or a side chain that's pegged to it in some way, is, is very much fair game." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:40", "start": 2079.52, "text": "If somebody feels like they aren't technical enough or maybe they don't know enough about Bitcoin- to run a Bitcoin Meetup, what would you say, what would you tell them?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "34:50", "start": 2089.89, "text": "I would tell" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:50", "start": 2090.33, "text": "them that," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "34:52", "start": 2091.65, "text": "if you don't think you're technical enough to be successful with Bitcoin, then, I mean, that's the starting point for everyone, right? The starting point for being successful and technical enough with Bitcoin to run a full node is, is like not being that initially and then learning. it's, it's not as daunting as it seems, and you would be surprised by the number of people who are Are enthusiastic about helping, and that help can come in the forms of direct messages on Twitter, you know, as I mentioned, my DMs are open, and I just, I love helping people kind of navigate the world of Bitcoin. So if anyone wants help, whether it's meetups or running full nodes or anything, you know, I'm happy to, to the extent that I have bandwidth. But, at meetups, there are often just people who are excited about this movement and they learned something, you know, in their reading of, like- Listening to the most recent podcast or reading the most recent, blog and articles, and then they want to go and kind of share that with the group. And so making those connections and providing this, this forum and this recurring platform for that is really powerful. and, and you also just, even if you aren't technical and you don't have an interest in being technical or ever in running your own full node There are still benefits to connecting with other bitcoiners through meetups, so, you know, I doubt my mom, for example, would ever be technical enough to run her own full node, but she, you know, would probably be better off using the full node of someone who she trusts in her social circle, like maybe mine, for example, And maybe you're better off using the full node of a friend compared to the full node of, you know, some big exchange that is far removed from you and doesn't care about you and you don't really trust as an individual. So just developing those relationships with others who can guide you, help you learn to the extent that you are interested, or kind of function as a service provider to you, like a Uncle Jim, if you will, to, to run infrastructure on your behalf. It can be really useful." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:07", "start": 2226.59, "text": "And let's chat a little bit about the whole live streaming or audio recording of talks. Do you have any insights to share on that?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "37:16", "start": 2235.53, "text": "Sure, we're not experts there by any means. That world has been new to us, and we're navigating it largely due to the forcing function of the, the COVID regulatory shutdowns. but we've been establishing a YouTube channel. It's been a, a good reminder to us of the importance of just emphasizing an online presence. So we are putting the finishing touches on a new website. right now we just use our meetup dot com group as a landing page. But I would recommend, you know, as a basic template for someone to have a website, perhaps set up BTC Pay server and accept donations through some solution like that, and All of the social media channels, you know, even like Instagram, a Facebook page can be pretty effective for-- I know a lot of privacy advocates, myself included, aren't big fans of the notion of Facebook, but, but Facebook has reach and there are a lot of real people out there who- Are interested in Bitcoin and that's one of their primary sources of information, for better or worse, especially regional. And so a Facebook page, wonderful, and then, yeah, live streaming through YouTube. We've been using Zoom meetings and the integration there with YouTube is pretty nice. So with the, some configuration in advance and then the click of a button, you can kind of go live to your YouTube channel, be broadcasting to the world, watching the Q&A. And interacting with people through that format, and that's been nice. We're, we're figuring it out, and so far it's been successful." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:57", "start": 2337.29, "text": "Yeah, right. And I guess I would just say as well, while obviously it's nice if you can livestream, I would say don't-- if you're out there thinking, \"Oh, I've got to do all this stuff, and I have to do a livestream as well,\" it's like, don't, don't worry, like, it's not mandatory, right? Like, it's something that you can do," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:19", "start": 2358.9, "text": "This and that, and have a Facebook page and a YouTube and it, like, just start small and just, you know, just go work your way up from there. the other point I think is really interesting as well is obviously- This recent price pump is gonna start pulling people in, and so I think part of why it's a good idea now to get some of these meetups set up and, or build them up again is, you know, there's gonna be a lot more people coming in, and we need ways to have an easy way for them to get onboarded without them kind of getting scammed, right? So I think that's also the importance of setting these meetups or growing these meetup groups, now, because who knows what's coming in in a year?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "40:03", "start": 2402.81, "text": "For sure. I think that's fantastic advice. you, w-we often joke that we need to prepare for the marketing of number go up, because it is very, very powerful marketing, right? There is no bigger interest generator in Bitcoin than just the public seeing headlines about the price rising. And so all of the marketing that you can do for your meetup group is great and you should do it, but it will probably pay In comparison to just people seeing Bitcoin's price skyrocket and then going on Meetup dot com and thinking, \"I've gotta go learn more about this stuff and figure out how I can get into it.\" So get your group in place before that happens is ideal, and if it can be less of a, of a scramble to throw things together and more of something that you've established and, and that people can find that's ready for them, then that makes you really well positioned to accommodate that new interest." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:01", "start": 2460.98, "text": "It's also just a great opportunity for people to set up their own little, get used to, if they want to, set up their own little BTC pay shops and things like that. And I think these are things where it's easy for you to do once you've made friends with people in your area as well. So then you, someone there might know how to set up BTC pay, and someone else might know how to set up like the, the terminal or the, the, the POS terminal. so, a- and I know that's been a focus for you guys as well. Can you A little bit about" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "41:32", "start": 2491.88, "text": "that. For sure, yeah, we've started, so we run a BTC Pay instance and we've been going through and onboarding some local brick and mortar merchants. there has been the kind of funny debate going on in, on Bitcoin Twitter in recent months right around hodl versus spend, and, you know, I, I find myself more on the hodl side personally, like I think saving and hodling is the, the large- Just primary use case for Bitcoin at the moment, but I think there is so much value ultimately in being able to close the loop right and completely opt out and, and if the way in which you spend your Bitcoin really is circular, so it's not just like paying with Bitcoin, but it's circular economy, meaning, you know, it's all connected and the Bitcoin that you spend goes to a hodler and that merchant then hopefully spends to someone else who hodles and it, the value That you created in the world doesn't flow back into fiat. Like building those, those circles and those systems of networks out is something that I'm really passionate about, Brian's really passionate about, and so we've been going through in Southern California and just connecting with business owners and helping articulate the value proposition of Bitcoin. it's, it's great too if you can really make a hodler out of the business owner. I think that is when Like that is the ideal way, in my opinion, to do merchant adoption, because if you don't really make them a Bitcoiner, if you try to go through and say, \"Oh, well, you know, here's this new payment system and, like the fees at this particular second happen to be lower than Visa, but there are these block times,\" like, like it just kind of, you know, Bitcoin isn't ideal next to Visa or Mastercard as a payment system, right? Because they probably aren't in it for the uncensorable- nature of Bitcoin's transactions if they're just like a coffee shop. so really the most success that I've had in merchant adoption is when you can make the merchant want Bitcoin. If you can really get them to be a hodler and then often they will be willing to accept a discount in Bitcoin, and that is the most powerful signal in my opinion that, that a merchant can offer that, that they want Bitcoin and that Bitcoin is good. This, you know, this is kind of an anecdote, but I rented out my apartment once and offered the girl who ended up renting it a discount if she paid in Bitcoin, like twenty, at least fifteen, I think maybe even twenty percent off of rent if she paid in Bitcoin, and I could see the gears turning in her head when she's like, \"So if you're telling me that if I just give you this Bitcoin stuff, that you'll give me that much money off? \" And, and it makes them curious, it makes them wonder like, \"Why you want this Bitcoin stuff And so I really love that as a way to encourage merchant adoption, just signal to people that this Bitcoin stuff is valuable. It helps you stack sats, you know, often without being part of the huge KYC on-ramp infrastructure, and it helps spark curiosity in other non-bitcoiners about whether they should be accumulating this new thing they've never heard of before." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:54", "start": 2694.12, "text": "Yeah, that's a great story. I'll tell you what, I saw a recent, tweet by Luke Childs and I thought it was fascinating, very related. So he was saying he had a mate who was going around setting up merchants, teaching them how to take Bitcoin just so that he could then buy the Bitcoin off those merchants and get it KYC free." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "45:14", "start": 2714.0, "text": "That is fantastic, I love that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:16", "start": 2716.15, "text": "Very clever, right? and so I, I guess w- when we're talking about merchant adoption, we have to be careful, and I think you, you did well there in terms of the right cautions, right? Because we don't wanna make the same mistakes that people made in twenty thirteen and fourteen, right? So people might yell at a business and get them to take Bitcoin, and there might be a very small initial period where people bought with Bitcoin, and then later people stopped buying with Bitcoin, the staff of that business forget how to accept Bitcoin And, so there's all these kind of real life hurdles with that, and so i-i-it's important to be sustainable about it, and ideally, if, like you were saying, the merchant has been orange pilled, that's the real aim of spending, in my view. You strategic, like, I'm, I'm like you, I'm mostly huddle, but I think strategically spending in certain scenarios, if you can orange pill someone, it might be worthwhile." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "46:08", "start": 2767.58, "text": "Yep, spot on. I, I would echo that very much. The rule of thumb that I use, is hodling is always good for Bitcoin and spending is sometimes good for Bitcoin. and so, and some-sometimes it can be better than hodling, like if your goal is to get more value into Bitcoin and, you know, ultimately have it displace fiat and central banking, then perhaps if you do a strategic spend to someone else, that can be the right way to, like, get them intrigued and or Fill them and, and all that, but sometimes it's just you happen to be paying in Bitcoin and they're instantly liquidating it for fiat behind the scenes and they don't really care, and then that value you created just goes back into propping up the fiat system. So, so I think, you know, just being thoughtful when you spend and when in doubt, hoardle is the rule of thumb that I use, but of course, Bitcoin's permissionless, and there's no universal right answer." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:04", "start": 2823.6, "text": "Right, yeah, and I think, it's also a good idea Where for people who wanna learn more about the privacy a-aspects of Bitcoin, that they can learn how to spend with a coinjoin and things like that. So I think that's another way for people to learn about these things that they might learn at a meetup where they might not have necessarily done that if they were just, you know, keeping their coins on an exchange or just hodling on a hardware wallet and nothing else. There's, there's kind of those elements there that you might learn in person as well." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "47:32", "start": 2851.91, "text": "For sure. that is actually one of the biggest takeaways for me personally from the, the meetup this year. I mean, I've been passionate about privacy and Bitcoin for years, but admit that I've been lagging in a lot of ways on, you know, my personal usage, just in best practices and doing the right things. And we did a series of events where we had Samurai Wallet at one of our events, discussed privacy, and did some events around CoinJoin. And, you know, even though I was one of the organizers I learned so much from those events, and the biggest takeaway for me was that privacy isn't something that you can very easily just tack on when you need it. I think a lot of people are like, \"Oh, I'll, you know, buy my, my coins this mainstream way. I'll like stack Sats on Cash App, and then if I ever need to be private someday in the future, I'll just like figure out this CoinJoin stuff and do it that afternoon.\" And that is probably not gonna set you up for success. if you can, if you can weave privacy into your routine into how you buy or how you periodically withdraw and integrate coinjoins, for example, or payjoins into that flow, then it just positions you a lot better for the future to, to keep control of your money." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:47", "start": 2927.14, "text": "Right. And I think it's almost like you do a fire drill so you know what to do when the emergency happens, and it's the same way. You, you don't wanna just be trying to figure out coinjoin, in, in, in that time in the future, you wanna sort of learn how to use it now so that you're ready if a- And you haven't ate it." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "49:03", "start": 2943.03, "text": "Definitely, yep. And so that you can help others who maybe didn't prepare so much in advance navigate that world if it is kind of a fire drill for them at the time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:12", "start": 2951.84, "text": "Alright, well, I think they're the key things, so Stephen, have you got any final thoughts for the listeners in terms of why should they, first of all, run the-- run a local Bitcoin meetup or two, why should they get involved with their local Bitcoin meetup?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "49:25", "start": 2964.89, "text": "Yeah, if- I mean, I would encourage everyone to be involved to some extent. So the starting point is just search and see what's out there, and if someone already has a great meetup, then at least attending and even messaging the organizer, asking them if they need help, that is usually very much appreciated and warmly welcomed. I, I truly believe that meetups are the foundations for the citadels, right? you know, the citadel is kind of a meme, but, But I think the Bitcoin meetups are really well positioned for that. If, if citadels ever do manifest in the world, these, you know, kind of communities of like-minded bitcoiners living together in these opium civilizations, it's not going to be an overnight thing where, one bitcoiner gets mega rich and they build a citadel and the next day that citadel's there. it's, it's, I think it's going to be this very gradual thing where you build connections to people just to- individuals and, if you share core values with them or you find yourself aligned on, on common interests and a passion for, for Bitcoin and, and maybe more that you discover later on, then meetups are just such a good way to foster that and kind of lay the groundwork for For this phased transition that we could potentially see to a better society, if Bitcoin does what many of us hope and believe that it will do. so, so yeah, I'd encourage everyone to just see how you can contribute to or start a meetup in your area. The downside is fixed and is minimal, and it might turn into something completely wonderful that, that you can't even imagine." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:10", "start": 3070.29, "text": "Excellent, Stephen. How can my listeners follow you or find Mind OC Bitcoin Network." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "51:16", "start": 3076.39, "text": "Sure, I'm mostly active on Twitter, so I'm, s t h e n c, s t h e n c on Twitter. the meetup is o c b t c n on Twitter. And our website's in the works, but we do have a YouTube channel out there. If you're anywhere around Southern California, we usually meet in Irvine, California, and we're looking forward to that again, once we're allowed to. but in the interim, we will still be doing events On, on YouTube and blasting those out on Twitter. So, and if anyone, again, has questions about meetups or how they can contribute to the space, then just drop me a DM, a DM anytime, and I'm happy to help." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:57", "start": 3117.3, "text": "Awesome, thanks so much for joining me." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "51:59", "start": 3118.96, "text": "Yeah, thanks for having me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:00", "start": 3120.24, "text": "So, if you need help getting publicity for your Bitcoin focused meetup, then you can DM me on Twitter, and you can find the show notes at stephanlivera dot com slash one nine seven. That's it from me, and I'll see you in the cit" } ] }