{ "episodeId": "SLP234", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "ron_paul": { "name": "Ron Paul", "role": "guest", "tag": "RON" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 9.23, "text": "Hi and welcome to the Stefan Livera podcast. Today, for episode two hundred and thirty-four, I have a very special guest. He is Dr. Ron Paul, legendary libertarian, former congressman, and presidential candidate, and he's also the host of the Ron Paul Liberty Report. So I, I had the great opportunity to speak with him, and this was only a short interview, I only had three 30 minutes, but, I'm sure you will enjoy the conversation I had with Dr. Paul. This show brought to you by swanbitcoin dot com, the best place to auto-stake your Bitcoin in the US with incredibly easy setup and low fees. 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Go check it out at lend.hodlhdle.com." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:11", "start": 130.57, "text": "Dr. Paul, you've been an inspiration for many of us, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "02:16", "start": 136.21, "text": "Good to be with you today." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:19", "start": 138.53, "text": "Dr. Paul, so, we, we are in the, you know, coming-- this is a podcast mainly about the Bitcoin world, and, I'd love to get your thoughts on where we are in this whole, Bitcoin, revolution, we are, you know, as we speak today, it's December twenty twenty, and Bitcoin started in January two thousand and nine, and so it's come a long way. So I'm curious as to your views on, you know, a-as someone who's not necessarily For, increased liberty as a result." }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "02:52", "start": 172.29, "text": "Well, I, I think there's, you know, a lot of questions to be answered. I don't think the conclusion is there yet. I've been impressed with what's happened in the, in these few years because I think, some people predicted it would be this popular, other people were skeptical, and I think that still exists. And, my introduction to it has been mainly more philosophic and legalistic because, I knew about this when it was coming, into vogue when I was in Congress, so I thought the important thing is that we should do whatever we can to make it legal, because, and that's why I had a bill in that would be legalizing competing currencies, because if it's to be used as money, you're competing with the dollar, and so, you know, there are some people who don't like that, you know, and they, and they wanna know what's going on, and sometimes there are tax collectors out there too that wanna know exactly what people Alternative currency, but I was mainly interested in to make sure that it was legal, and I, I think basically it is. A lot of people are trusting, a lot of people are buying and selling, but that doesn't totally reassure me because I have a, a skepticism of government all the time. See, I don't even have, total reassurance that the government is, isn't gonna come along and wanna confiscate my gold, you know, this sort of thing. Governments are pretty ornery. So since, you know, the more successful crypto is- It's going to be, and Bitcoin is going to be, I think the more you have to be aware of, of what's going on in the government will become more aggressive. I think about it in education. You know, if you, if you're doing private education outside the government education, such as homeschooling or private schooling, if you're too successful, the government's gonna wanna close you down, and the government schools don't want the competition. I think that's the way it is in finance too. But, As of now, it looks like a lot of people who believe in our marketplace, believe it can work. but I think I would-- my advice is, yes, be vigilant, you know, because, you know, there's information collected. The exchanges aren't, totally anonymous, and I read the stories about, you know, the IRS, checking up on things. And, and, you know, for somebody like myself, I don't even believe in the IRS, let alone being flexible enough. Well, as long as I The IRS is investigating me, and we follow the rules. Well, you know, in nineteen thirty-two, in the depths of the depression, people were allowed to own gold, you know, and we were on the gold standard. But immediately, what did they do? They closed shop. It made it-- they made it illegal to own gold for, you know, all the way up until nineteen seventy-five. So that's why, you know, I got into politics, and that's why I've remained a skeptic, and, and I think it's legit- Legitimate, but nobody claims that we've ever had a perfect system. But I, I sort of strive for that, for me the perfect system is, freedom of choice, then you and I can decide exactly what we should use as our monetary system. But today that's not here. But I like the idea that cryptocurrency has made people think about it. the one other thing I like about it, so far it looks like there's gonna be a limitation of the creation of new currency, and that's, that's the big thing. If- If this, this occurs and you just can't expand it, that's the biggest evil. So when I endorse cryptocurrencies, I, always admonish and say, \"Yeah, it'll work if, if, if it's, if, if, if fraud is prohibited, because governments are used to doing the fraud, and that's why the systems al-always go badly. So I think that would be very bad, but that's human nature, and there have been, you know, episodes of people taking- Taking crypto that they shouldn't be taking, but that's good, that, you know, in the marketplace, it's sort of like if, if you're a, if, if your business is being robbed in a free market, you get some guards. So I think, the protection has to come, from the, technological viewpoint so that, people can remain assured, because if there's not, I don't think the government's gonna come to the rescue and say, \"We wanna make it secure and nobody lose anything,\" they But if, if, if there is a problem, there's a tremendous incentive, you know, to have security, and of course, there are some that are very satisfied with it, and I'm sort of cautiously optimistic about that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:33", "start": 452.98, "text": "Thank you, Dr. Paul, and I'm also curious as to your view on, obviously, Bitcoin appeals to many libertarians, right? Libertarians, we are probably the optimal demographic to be in, into Bitcoin, and yet I notice there are a lot of libertarians who aren't that into Bitcoin and they don't necessarily see the promise. I'm curious as to your view on why that is." }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "07:57", "start": 476.69, "text": "Well, I think that's because people are individual, you know, I, I imagine that, there's not one, feature of, of the people involved, because there might be some that just love it for the technology of it, and they think it's a transfer system, and others say, \"Well, no, this is money is gonna compete with the dollar,\" and this sort of thing. So it's for different reason, and I'm mostly interested in because, I see this as not a creature of the government But, the government's watching very closely, so I think everybody gets involved for, for different reasons. Some people, I've, I've, met some people who are really, really into it, have made a lot of money, and their, their balance sheet has, has grown. And, their whole goal is just, well, I know what's gonna happen in ten years, I'm buying when I can, I'm gonna sit there and I'm gonna hold. Well, maybe, but I'm not smart enough to know that for sure. And there's, Variation, that's just human nature, and that's why I want individuals to have this flexibility because if, if you're, if your goals are slightly different than mine and you have all the authority, it might not please me. So if we have a system, and I, I hope this system provides it, that, you can be involved in, cryptocurrencies and work with other people that you have some agreement and, I would have to use mine in maybe a slightly different way. Hey, I, and, and I think, I think there's just a, a, a some time left before all this is ironed out, because I don't think people know, the, the, the absolute future, and, that's because you can't estimate and predict human action. Human action is an individual thing, and it's going to vary. What we wanna do is legalize he-- human action that varies, and, that gives us the really, good Philosophic, intellectual opposition to the authoritarianism in government." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:02", "start": 601.85, "text": "Of course, and, do you then see it as some combination of technology that helps enable a more libertarian future, and also some level of politics and some level of, call it activism or lobbying or some level of, political support to help enable the overall vision?" }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "10:24", "start": 623.89, "text": "Right, I think, I think both, because I think, the libertarian, understanding, they certainly were, aware of this and knew about it and wrote about it and they were excited about it, but, I don't know anything about the numbers, but there's, billions and billions of dollars invested, and believe me, I don't believe they're all good libertarians. I think they're smart people, and they're able to do it, and, and they see this as a vehicle that, has- has a positive future, so they're willing to make a business decision on it, and, their attitude would be quite different. But that's the way maybe it would be on gold and silver and everything else. Some people might think it's a store of value only and, and hold it, and they might-- somebody else might wanna do it because they, they know it has a, metallic value of, a, industrial value to it. So there'll be, be different reasons. And, I think that's the way it is where I don't Why you have crypto and how it works. Y- you know, there'll, there'll be different motivations, but, yeah, I, I still have full trust in free people making voluntary decisions. They're not perfect, but when they make mistakes, it only hurts them. But when you turn 'em over to the government and put 'em at the Federal Reserve and they make decisions about savings and interest rates and all of this, you know, when they make a mistake, it can be very, very painful and that's- That's why we have, have the ups and downs in the business cycle and, fear, fear of the crack up, boom and things like that. But all that now can be reflected in some people the way they use crypto. You know, they figure, you know, it's, it's outside, it's different, and, and some days, you know, when I watch the markets very closely, I think, crypto, crypto is a haven and it is the alternative and, and everything I think it's going in there. Then another day, then you have a two thousand dollar dip, and you say, \"Well, maybe it's not decided for sure yet. More time is necessary.\" and you don't-- and you want that, because you don't want a-- because we're talking about, cryptos in dollar values, well, that, that's, still, still dollars that they're dealing with that. So this is, this is the, the thing that will be worked out and people will, finally decide But, right now, it's, I think, I find it fascinating, even though I don't trade it, we, we get donations, for our foundation and the work that I do, and it makes sense. I speak a lot on the, on the issue, and, sometimes I think, well, I don't go to these conferences and talk about, well, if you buy this one and this one, sell tomorrow and do this. I don't, I don't do any of that, and I think, well, maybe, maybe It's because they know that my goals and my influence is always to make it legal, let people make their decision, and that's why I want the environment. To me, it's, it's almost similar to if, if you're dealing in, in religious values, you might not have to take a religious value and promote, but you want to have the freedom of choice in religion or social activities or social habits and all this, and make people make these decisions, and that should- Satisfied. So I think the people who don't, get involved are, are really very valuable. And I think of the drug issue. For years, I was, always against the drug war, and I represented a Bible Belt, very conservative district in Texas. And, when I came out for that, I thought, \"Boy,\" They're gonna kill me on this one. And when I, ran a, a second time for Congress, and they did, they tried to, both the Democrats and Republicans said, \"This guy doesn't wanna have a war on drugs,\" you know, and this sort of thing. And people would come up and say, \"Why don't you wanna legalize marijuana?\" And I said, \"You don't have it right. It's, it's not-- I don't want to, legalize, you know, the, a single currency or marijuana. What I Is legalized freedom of choice, and you make up your mind, and that's the way it should be, whether it's religion or whether it's what people take in their bodies or what they put in their wallet, and, then they have to assume the responsibility. And, you know, I was always impressed, pleasantly so, during the presidential races, that most of the university students that they, you know, get a lot of blame for some of the weird stuff they do, the students were good, if they heard this message that you and I are talking about, where you, you can do what you want, but you can't hurt people, and, and you can get along, but you make your choices. But I thought what would turn them off was, but if you screw up, you're gonna suffer the consequences. And- And, and that, that they understood. So the, the, I think the, I think we have a powerful message, a libertarian message, and, a-and it's, it's very appealing. It just astounds me that we don't do a better job in convincing people, because, they say you and I had a total disagreement on, on crypto. The important thing is make sure it's legal. We may have total disagreement, you know, with people who have no faith and other people have different faith, as long as you'd- Don't use force. Same way with our bodies about what we eat. And, so it shouldn't be hard with anybody with a slight libertarian leaning that we don't look forward to the day when the government and Dr. Fauci is telling us that we have to take a vaccine or we can't have a job or we can't travel. That's, that's the real danger. But I put that all together whether, whether we're talking about marijuana or crypto or religion or personal habits, it, it to me is all one thing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:35", "start": 994.74, "text": "Dr. Paul, you have, inspired so many to want liberty. I'm wondering whether you have any insights on, as you mentioned this idea of growing, you know, you're calling out to the remnant. You're trying to find those people who want freedom. Do you have any tips on how to find, you know, the Bitcoin remnant, how to grow that base of people who want it to have, want to have freedom of choice in money?" }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "16:59", "start": 1018.8, "text": "Well, I was taught that if you have an understanding, do the You have to understand it and explain it, and if it's worth anything, they'll find you. You know, people will find you. I, I didn't know you, you know, three or four or five years ago, and I don't know when you got really involved, but I didn't, I didn't call you up on the phone and say, \"Hey, look, this is what you have to do.\" Now, it doesn't work that way. You have to present it, and you obviously have done it, you know, with, what your business is like" }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "17:34", "start": 1053.52, "text": "Saying, and, and I think, I think this is, is very good. So the, the remnant, I might use the, the definition slightly differently because the, the remnant are the leftovers, the old leftovers, the people that knew what it was like. Let's say we might use, it's used biblically, you know, in the Old Testament, there was a remnant. People always, the, the, the societies would deteriorate. Well, our society is deteriorating right now, and we could argue the case that we have a remnant of Those who understood what the founders were talking about, because they had a pretty good understanding about libertarianism. They didn't call themselves libertarian, but they called themselves, you know, defenders of liberty. And, and so there, there are people out there, and they, a-and, it's taught, it's ta-taught biblically that there's always a remnant, the people who are gonna have memory. So even no matter what happens with the Federal Reserve and look at what they've done to the money, there's always a remnant out there that- Want sound money and, and, and they hold things together. So yes, you want to appeal to them because, movements occur by leadership, but people in the remnant are still leaders and leaning away, even though they may be small, they may be clinging, to, to the truth. And, so they're the ones, so they have to be used to popularize, the issues. If you want sound money, people have to know about it. If people, if you want to, and right now what I work on some- As much as, is this crazy stuff going on with coronavirus, I want people to be more sensible with their medicine and, through their care and, you know, all this. So you have to finally get the people to come out and support, but you have to have people believing. And, I was always under the assumption that, if you look at it and say, \"Well, Ron Paul sounds real good, but when are you gonna get your fifty-one percent so you can win all the election?\" It doesn't work that way. You have to, you, you need about Eight, eight, eight percent of the people or so that are very supercharged and they're leaders and they're, they're thinking about these things, and, then they influence the others, then you can get the crowds to come out and shift the, the attitude. So, that's, that's really the way, the way I approach it, and, and I-- So I think the remnant, whether, wh-what, what, you could say, because I wanted to date the remnant. Yeah, there is, is true. I like it when You know, yeah, we're part of a, the residual of, some beliefs that personal liberty is far superior to, anything else, to, to the-- To me, it's individualism versus authoritarianism, voluntarism versus coerciveness." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:22", "start": 1221.58, "text": "Back to the show in a moment after a word for the sponsors of the show, Unchained Capital are building Bitcoin native financial services. 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So if you have a Bitcoin hardware wallet and you've written down the twenty four words, well, this is a way to keep that backed up in a metal backup that is now fireproof and waterproof and rustproof and also can be made tamper evident. So the cipher wheel comes in a wheel shape and you slide in the tiles to back up the seed words, and in doing so, you can help make sure that you or your loved ones have access to your bitcoins if an accident occurs to your hardware wallet or to that paper seed that you keep. So the orders are going out Go and get yours at cyphersafe dot io and use the code levera for a discount. When it comes to, new industries, it seems that they can become captured by the government and, and I know that in some ways, as, as examples, I know previously, historically, you have also railed against things like financial surveillance, financial controls, things like, you know, KYC and FinCEN. Do you see that th-those are also influences that are coming into the Bitcoin world? As well." }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "22:22", "start": 1342.05, "text": "I worry about that, because, at one of the conferences I met somebody, I said, \"Well, how-- how, what are you doing?\" Oh, she says, \"I'm a lobbyist for Washington. I wanna make sure when they write the regulation that we get protection.\" And that's a practical thing to do, but, because even though I believe in free market medicine, if they're beating the bushes to have Obamacare, you know, for somebody to go in there and try to save freedom of choice even in a- A small area, that's legitimate, but it was sort of a little bit disappointing, but probably, probably very, very practical. I, I want, I want separation. So, I, I, I think that, it's, it's hard to prove that, it's really autonomous, the effort, the, the, the IRS doesn't know what's going on, and, I think, I think they, they know exactly, be- because the first time I even heard a discussion, I can't remember, it was probably Bernanke, it was a chairman, and we had him before the committee, and the subject came up. I don't know, it sounds like a question I might have asked. Anyway, it was in the discussion, and he was, he wasn't, he wasn't negative, you know? He said, \"Well, we'll see how this works off,\" because if, if he didn't see-- he didn't come across harsh about it, so I always thought there was more tolerance of it. And, they know what's going on, and, and I think that's the, that's the thing, the ultimate thing of, being anonymous and, and, and secretive, That's not easily achieved, and you can't, you can't even, like I said in nineteen thirty-three, even if you were well prepared, Roosevelt's gonna call in the gold. Well, you know, and this is, it's, it's all the issues, huh? What, what if people think that the ultimate protection is owning a gun? You know, societies have taken guns from people, and our government's capable of doing that too. So the issue is personal liberty, you know, and all, all these things I think about." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:28", "start": 1468.33, "text": "and, also, I'd also love to get your views on, I know, Mises is a great scholar that, you know, we, is regarded as highly influential, and I think he also saw sound money as a protection, what are your views on that idea? It's, it's, it's like a protection of your rights against the government?" }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "24:49", "start": 1488.95, "text": "Well, well, that's it, but it should be, it should be automatic. The only purpose for government, if you're looking for a purpose, and, and that is to, protect liberty. Guar-- you know, making sure that if your rights are being violated, if somebody's hurting you or stealing from you or they burned down your house, that, if you do have a local policeman, local government, that would be the purpose. But, you know, that's been long lost, right now, you know, I, I believe that, To, not lie, cheat, steal, or kill. But our government, guess what? It does lie on occasion. Does it ever cheat? Yeah, they cheat all the time. Do they steal? Yeah, inflate and taxes and, and they assassinate people, even American citizens. So it's the government that should be restrained. The government should restrain those activities of private individuals. That if the, if the per-private individual is lying and cheating and stealing, you, you should have a recourse and, and some- Protection, but they, they shouldn't be involved in the welfare state, they shouldn't be involved in, i-i-in, counterfeiting. instead of protecting, you know, prohibiting counterfeiting, they become the biggest counterfeiters, you know, and, and that's, of course, Where so m- many of our problems are coming right now, because that's where the big state comes from, and that's where our wars come from, that's where the runaway welfare comes from. And of course, you could say, \"Well, yeah, it causes chaos, but it gives the motivation to somebody think about cryptocurrencies, you know, maybe it's an alternative.\" So, the, the people will have a, have a reaction to it, they react rather quickly when government comes in and they, put on a lot of regulation Usually, you know, even under the worst circumstances, Soviet system or whatever, there's always a black market, you know, you, you have to survive, surviving, and of course, the first ones to jump into the black market are the politicians, you know, to get away from the market, you know, so if they have socialized medicine, everybody's in the socialized med-medical system, yeah, unless you're a government official, then you'll have a private doctor. That's, that's the kind of- But, you know, that's hypocrisy, and that's one thing that we talk about on my, television program, is that this whole idea of hypocrisy right now is really getting people's attention. You don't even have-- you know, it's more powerful than arguing, you know, the details of, of what the government should do or shouldn't do, but the hypocrites that are coming in and saying, \"This is the rules, and you can't do this,\" and, and, at the same time, they don't even follow the rules. That, right now, we That is the greatest, incentive for people to wake up and, and, and believe our side rather than theirs because they're hypocrites. And, you know, how about finishing up in a little bit? I gotta go in a few more minutes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:50", "start": 1670.0, "text": "Oh, for sure, for sure. so I, I, I guess, Perhaps, we could just, close out with, what your thoughts are on the outlook for liberty, over the next, let's say, five years. Do you think we're, we're going in a, in a, in a good direction or in a bad direction or, you know, kind of neutral?" }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "28:08", "start": 1687.64, "text": "Well, next two or three won't be very, very bad on our civil liberties, our, and our wealth, and there will be-- you have to, liquidate debt when it gets out of hand. And debt is the problem, and it's been encouraged because of the monetary system. And when this happens, it's not only the debt, but it's the malinvestment too, and that's why we have corrections. And, I think when you stymie the correction, see, last fall, That, you know, when, when we had an overnight rate surge and they had a shortage and interest rates went to ten percent, that was before coronavirus, but coronavirus came in, I think to distract us from that. But it was way out of proportion, it was a huge bubble there. it was bigger, it was already bigger than the Nasdaq bubble and the housing bubble. So the correction was there. The debt has to be liquidated to correct it and, it, and the malinvestment, bad mistakes in investment. And that's painful, so that's why politicians can't tolerate that. They'd rather delay the inevitable, and they want to liquidate debt, but they wanna do it through, debasement of the currency. So they just print and print and print, and they get all upset, the prices aren't going up fast enough. We wanna liquidate debt and debt faster. But regardless of what happens, the debt gets liquidated, and we're in the process of-- and, and you, everybody thinks it's only, coronavirus that has these Business going broke. There are, you know, let's say if you take a thousand small businesses and five hundred are gone because they went bankrupt and the, and the coronavirus and lockdown made the difference, there's another group that was more frugal and they had been savers and they could do it, and they might have been buying up some of those assets. So that, that assort- you know, the assorting out has to occur. But they, they think that, that, that, that, this, this can go on, but no, it's going- It's going to be resolved. So the answer is, in the next few years, regardless, even if they got more sensible about the lockdown, we still have the liquidation, which I would say is gonna have two or three years there. And if they really, really are stupid, they could prolong the depression for, like they did in the nineteen thirties. The depression really lasted for fifteen years from the ear- through the thirties and till the war was over. You know, there was, it took all that time for people to get back to- Working again. So if you did the right thing, now that's the best part, if you want to do that. And, this is the bit of optimism, if we did everything right, if we bu-but the bullet and we knew we had to have this surgical treatment for our cancer and have it and be cured, that'd be one thing. But nobody's going to do that. There's no way the politicians will back off on spending. And that's-- and it's not the Democrats' fault. It's bipartisan, because one wants to spend the money on the- Wars, the other on welfare. It just yesterday there was another agreement, despite all this hollering, screaming about what's going on, even in the midst of the, Of the impeachment hearings, there was a pause for the Republicans and Democrats to go over and vote for, you know, money to be spent. So that's gonna continue, but there will be liquidation, and I think the liquidation will come with, runaway inflation. So, the question, when's that gonna happen and when will it work? We're not gonna do it the right way. They did it that way in nineteen twenty-one, and after a year, everything was back, they were back to work again. So it's gonna take a while. So, I guess If we were, if we could get the liquidation down and, and, and then got into, you know, sound economic policy, it would take at least ten years. I think in longer terms, for the correction, because I have a homeschooling program and I get the young kids that can't even go to school now, and the schools are horrible, and, I work real hard with, young people, and we're, we're doing better now because the schools are closed. And, but I think- I think the answer is found in, in education, and I think the great harm has been done by our universities. So, predicting times, predicting the time of the crash, impossible. Austrian economics said, \"You know there, it's coming, but you don't know the day.\" There'll be some psychological or some event that we don't know about will cause the crash and the, and the liquidation. The most important thing is, what are you gonna replace it with? You know, are you going to replace it with just a variation of Keynesian? Or are you gonna go with the Marxist-Leninist that are already in our government? or are we going to excite enough people to understand the difference between freedom and authoritarianism?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:01", "start": 1981.06, "text": "Fantastic, Dr. Paul. For any listeners who would like to follow you online or subscribe to the Liberty Report, where can they find you online?" }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "33:08", "start": 1987.64, "text": "Okay, I do a daily, live show on, on, on Ta- on- On our computers, and that is ronpaullibertyreport dot com. It's eleven o'clock, Central Time, and, we've been doing quite well lately because we've talked about coronavirus and, the election and mostly, current events and a lot of foreign policy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:30", "start": 2010.08, "text": "Well, Dr. Paul, I wanna respect your time. I just wanna thank you so much for being an inspiration for many of us, and thank you again for joining me on the show today." }, { "speaker": "ron_paul", "time": "33:38", "start": 2018.06, "text": "Nice to be with you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:40", "start": 2019.7, "text": "I hope you enjoyed hearing Ron Paul's views on monetary freedom. He has certainly been an inspiration for many of us, so this was a very special one for me. Also, I've got a really great interview coming up with Neil Ferguson, the historian. So make sure you are subscribed in your Podcatcher application, search Stefan Livera podcast for that one, and you can find the The website at stephanilivera dot com. That's it for me, thanks, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }