{ "episodeId": "SLP250", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "andrew_henderson": { "name": "Andrew Henderson", "role": "guest", "tag": "ANDREW" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:06", "start": 6.16, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast. Today for episode two hundred and fifty, we are exploring the idea of nomad capitalism for Bitcoiners, and my guest is Andrew Henderson, the founder of Nomad Capitalist. So I view this idea as being very related to the concepts in the book The Sovereign Individual, essentially by using- Overseas strategies, we are potentially able to get more freedom for ourselves and diversify our risk by not being so beholden to one particular government. And also, there are some potential legal tax savings to be made by using these kinds of strategies. And I understand it's not for everybody, but I think it's worthwhile considering. 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For years, we have all heard that mining is only profitable if you're investing tons of money, but now with CompuS, everyone is able to tap into economies of scale and access reasonably priced hardware and cheap industrial power rates. And if you're unsure about how to get started with mining Bitcoin, CompuS offers hardware and hosting bundles which eliminates the need for advanced technical knowledge and allows you to get started mining Bitcoin with hardware you own. Visit them at mine with compass dot com and start mining Bitcoin today. Hey, Andrew. I've, followed some of your work recently and, been, quite, impressed with, some of the work you're doing. Welcome to the show. Thank" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "03:10", "start": 190.02, "text": "you for having me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:11", "start": 191.42, "text": "So Andrew, you're known for promoting this idea of being a nomad capitalist. So what does, what does, how would you define nomad capitalism?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "03:22", "start": 201.84, "text": "Well, it's somebody who wants to make the most out of the financial opportunities that are available. So if they're looking at cryptocurrency, if they have a business, whatever it may be, it isn't necessarily somebody who's looking to move overseas and make as little as possible. It's someone who's looking to build an empire, grow their empire. It's somebody who would like to live overseas, in all likelihood, or at least create a plan B so they can live overseas. It's not about, you know, traveling with a suitcase behind you. it is the idea that, you know, In Mongolia, for example, you know, historically, they followed the herd, and when the opportunities, you know, go away, they go and they travel with the herd. And so I think that what we've seen is, you know, over the last twenty to thirty years, a, a great loss of opportunity, a great loss of capitalistic spirit, in Western countries. And I feel like the herd is moving. If you look at, you know, statistics, the herd is moving to, you know, back eastward. You, you know, you saw thousands of years ago, commerce The center of global trade was above Asia, it moved over, got over to Western Europe at its peak, and now it's heading back. And so I think that people who are successful investors, successful entrepreneurs, who have wealth, should, as I say, go where they're treated best. They shouldn't stay in a place that doesn't respect them, that wants to take from them, where they aren't respected by the voting class. And so, I think there's been a lot of changes in our lifetime that people should, should heed." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:48", "start": 288.28, "text": "And so in your book as well, you talk about some of the benefits of this idea of this lifestyle of living the nomad capitalist lifestyle. So in your mind, what are some of the top, you know, the key benefits of pursuing this kind of approach?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "05:03", "start": 303.32, "text": "Well, I think there's a couple main categories. Number one is your finances, so you can legally reduce your taxes, you can choose your own tax rate in many cases, whether you're a crypto trader again or an entrepreneur, you can pay zero, you can pay five, you can pay ten. A lot of people are paying forty and fifty and they want it to go up. you can legally access, you know, higher quality banks can, if you're an American, be able to break free from that, access certain crypto investments. so there's financial benefits." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "05:33", "start": 332.98, "text": "Citizenship and lifestyle benefits. You can live in a place with a lower cost of living, get more value for your money, live in a place that suits you more socially, better weather. You can get a second citizenship. I think every crypto investor should do that so that they aren't married to one government. You see what countries are doing? We just saw South Korea recently, they're gonna make crypto taxes worse. And so when your country goes in the wrong direction, you want a residence, you want a citizenship, you want a place to live. And I think that if you're cashing" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "06:02", "start": 361.78, "text": "out how do I invest in up and coming countries? How do I invest in outside of my country for asset protection, for diversification? those are the main things I think people can get out of it. And I think the beautiful thing is you get to choose from the buffet. You know, you get to choose the best passport for you, you get to choose the best bank and the best banking jurisdiction for you, and they don't have to be the same place. You get to choose the best place to date, get married, what have you. They don't have to be all Yet you can still get a second residence, get a second passport, get a home somewhere that you can go if things get bad. those are some of the options I think everyone should have available." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:43", "start": 402.52, "text": "Excellent. And also you mentioned around the possibility for very significant tax savings, because when you talk to people domestically, they're thinking, \"Oh, set up a trust and str-stream the income and so on,\" and they're, they're talking about these very minimal level tax savings, whereas what you're talking about is taking it from forty or fifty percent down to zero or close to zero percent taxes. So I think there's a very big benefit there if you also consider the compounding factor that if you were to do this and then save over the course of, you know, five, ten years or even longer, that's really adding up to a lot of savings for individuals. And I think that's also a point you touch on in your book as well. Could you outline some of the benefits there from that perspective?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "07:28", "start": 448.31, "text": "Well, yeah, as I said, you get to choose your own tax rate. You see a lot of countries that are changing crypto policies, they're making them, more rigid in terms of enforcement, in terms of reportability. you're seeing countries that are making you sign under penalty of perjury and going to jail and all that if you have crypto or not. You're seeing tax rates go up and tax treatments getting worse in many places. But there are places where it is better, and you can pay zero percent. Now, if you're an American, that gets to be more difficult" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "07:58", "start": 477.81, "text": "You know, seeing, you know, what it is that you're doing, you might even decide to, to give up your citizenship if you're not an American. it, it comes down to simply leaving your country and choosing a better place, right? Because Americans are taxed on their worldwide income, no matter where they go, whereas pretty much everyone else isn't. And so you can choose to go somewhere, and I think, you know, the compounding effect is very important. I had a gentleman recently, he's a young guy, he came to me, and he had started a Home, we have nothing to do, right? for sixteen hours of the day. So he started making, close to a million dollars a year, I think was the run rate by the time he was done. And we figured out all the taxes he was squirreling away each month, to pay the tax bill, all the money he was squirreling away would have turned into something like an extra eight hundred thousand dollars in crypto had he been, you know, putting that extra money from his cash cup business into crypto. He's a pretty young guy, and so if you look" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "08:58", "start": 537.79, "text": "Extra eight hundred thousand dollars. Not only that you're saving it, but you're reinvesting it into a business, into more crypto, into whatever, it, it adds up. And I look at my own life, you know, going where I'm treated best, I will over the course of a lifetime create tens of millions of dollars in extra value to, create more businesses, create more jobs, you know, give to causes that are important. I can promise you if that money was given to the US government, it would be squandered, right? And, and So, you can pay as little as zero on crypto and you can live in an environment where they actually welcome you and they want your business, unlike the country you're probably living in now where they think that you aren't paying enough." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:41", "start": 581.34, "text": "Yeah, and I, I've noticed as well from, some of your, content where you mentioned, you talk about, being a libertarian. I'm also a libertarian, and I think in some ways, this is almost like putting it into practice, because I see a lot of libertarians who unfortunately spend a lot of time just Spinning their wheels and, and spinning in the mud, and they're not being effective where really I think pursuing some of these kinds of strategies actually allow people to achieve additional freedom for themselves. In a way that wasn't possible," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "10:13", "start": 613.32, "text": "you know. I, I think what a lot of people do, and I've been studying libertarianism, I've been a student in, in a, you know, of it since I was a teenager. I mean, imagine, you know, the dating prospects being a fourteen-year-old picking up libertarian yard signs to put in your parents' front yard. but it really hit me when I was, you know, twenty twenty-one, something like that, when I first got the actual tax bill. I was all for taxes should be so low, the started to become successful, and I think it's becoming real right now for a lot of folks in the crypto industry. And what I think is concerning is, you know, I've never had an air of invincibility. I never thought that I was gonna outsmart the IRS or the CRA or whomever for the rest of my life, and I think that there's an opportunity. We have a big wide world, even during COVID, by the way. Oh, you can't go anywhere during COVID! I have people going all over the place during COVID. I've been in how many countries during COVID? You can go places. You may not be able to go to Canada, but you don't wanna go there anyway, right? Their taxes are terrible, their freedom is terrible, they got a lot of problems. So the problem is that people do this thing where, I live in the US, it's still the best country on earth because you can own guns or something. And, and I'm all for that. But I think that, you know, people have this thing where there's every excuse in the" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "11:33", "start": 693.32, "text": "Nomad capitalists and many other resources that didn't exist when I started doing this 13 years ago. And so you can make a pretty soft landing. But I think so many people wanna sit around, they're gonna hide their crypto from the IRS or from the tax man, they'll never find out, you know? And, they're never gonna wanna cash it in or, you know, they'll, they'll never change the tax code to make taking loans more disadvantageous, they'll never do any of that. and, you know, when freedom becomes, limited And I don't know what they plan on doing. They're gonna take on the military? I mean, you know, to me, the challenge, having spent a life around libertarians, I worked in the broadcasting business, and again, I'm, I'm there with you politically, but there is, as you say, so much wheel spinning, so many, so much discussing how many angels can dance on, on the head of a pin, and is the goal freedom, or is the goal just to be trolls? You know, for me, I want the feeling of freedom, and the greatest thing I Actually renouncing my US citizenship and divorcing the country is an amazing peace of mind. I don't have to fight, I don't have to worry, I don't have to be on guard or have my weapons ready or do whatever else people are doing. I just enjoy my life. I go where I'm treated best, and I think it's a beautiful thing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:51", "start": 770.64, "text": "And so, I mean, certainly there's a lot of benefits there. I think it would also be good to just talk about what are some of the typical costs or some of the risks that we face when trying to pursue this approach. I suppose you might face additional scrutiny from tax offices for, you know, going overseas and trying to do this kind of strategy. What do you-- What's your view on that kind of, that kind of risk and the costs associated with that?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "13:16", "start": 796.46, "text": "Well, I have a business, and we help people do this, and it's-- was born out of my own, you know, experiences that I was sharing through Nomad Capitalist. people came to me, and we've done, you know, we've helped hundreds of people from everyday entrepreneurs to multi-billionaires, to some very, you know, prominent crypto people as well. And I think that, n-- you know, very rarely does somebody actually have a problem where, you know, if you have a foreign bank account, for example, you have to legally report that but you don't have to report privately vaulted precious metals if it's in a private vault outside of the country. You don't have to report, foreign real estate if you're an American. Now, if you earn income, that would be taxable, subject to any, you know, tax credits from the other country where it is. So you want to go into it with the proper advice. And what I've seen is a lot of people who come to me, even they've been living overseas for years, they have accountants who don't know how to file the simplest of And so I think that you wanna work with people who are very focused on international. I think you wanna make sure you understand the rules. So if you're not American, and let's say you're Australian, you know, or Canadian, there's a lot of talk, which is, you know, five, ten, twenty years old, about the one hundred and eighty-three day rule, for example, just being in your country fewer than one hundred and eighty-three days. Well, I can promise you, if you're nomadic and you're be-bopping around the world six months a year, and then You wanna have the most up to date information, you wanna work with people who know this stuff. But I think if you do that, I mean, it is a commitment, right? Americans, you know, to me the biggest thing that, that trips people up is Americans talking about Puerto Rico. And you have so many people that, that comment that they're gonna, you know, you have to spend five or six months a year in Puerto Rico, and they say, \"Oh, but, you know, you're in the US, you could just get on a, on a pontoon" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "15:12", "start": 912.43, "text": "boat I'd like to change, you got to change the things in your life. But if you commit to spending, let's say, nine months a year in another country, you can dramatically lower your taxes. But you don't want to rely on people on, you know, some forum or people who are talking about something that worked in two thousand and seven, because as more people are doing this- Tax officers are cracking down. There was a case where, a guy closed down every connection he had to his country, but he forgot to cancel the, the, rent on his space in the marina for his boat. The boat went with him, but the space in the marina continued to be rented, and the government successfully argued that he had an intention to come back. Otherwise, why would you keep this space in the boat? He took away everything. And so I think you really want to drill down on, on making sure Sure you know what to do, and it really does require a commitment. This isn't like some half-hearted thing. the best thing I tell people to do is actually make the move, so therefore on paper it looks like you're making the move." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:15", "start": 975.22, "text": "Right, I see. And in terms of the typical costs that people would pay, I know this is maybe, maybe this is a little bit of a how long is a piece of string question, but if you could maybe just outline some range, I guess, in terms of the costs that people would pay to get, say, additional, say, Citizenships overseas to kind of structure their life in the way, as you're suggesting." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "16:38", "start": 998.14, "text": "Well, you know, I think it's like anything, you go to a hotel, or you're staying at the Ibis, or you're staying at the Four Seasons, right? The Ibis, you come down, you take the, the frozen macaroni out of the, out of the lobby, you put it in the microwave, and, you know, you, you scan your little key card, and they bill you a checkout. You know, you go to the Four Seasons, they have seventeen different people waiting to serve you. So you can set up an offshore company for a thousand bucks. I think most of those companies, like in Belize, Seychelles, Marshall Islands, those are pretty much has-beens. You're not gonna be very respected with those. I think onshore is the new offshore, and" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "17:16", "start": 1036.05, "text": "Like citizenship, something that's very important for a crypto investor, there's numerous ways to do it. Doesn't cost a lot to say, \"Hey, my dad is Mexican or my grandmother was Italian,\" and then just work through, either with a lawyer or someone like us or even the embassy yourself to go and get your passport. But when it comes to what a lot of crypto investors are doing, let's talk about passports. You wanna go and get a citizenship in six months, you know, if you're not a criminal, if you don't have a shady background, you know, if you Dominica or Antigua or Saint Kitts, and you're gonna be looking at spending for a single person a hundred grand and up for those, plus fees. If you're a family, a hundred and thirty grand and up, plus fees. And those fees, in many cases, aren't cheap. And so again, I think it comes down to, for us, you know, we work with seven and eight figure entrepreneurs, we're generally, you know, anywhere from fifty thousand to two hundred thousand dollars, depending on the options people choose, and if it's one person or seven people," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "18:13", "start": 1093.37, "text": "we It's built around what I wanted, right, is having one person manage seven different lawyers around the world. That could be substantially cheaper if you wanted to be your own general contractor. So I think it is kind of, you know, it, it could range from all you need the second passport and you're gonna go and live there and set up residence and that's crypto friendly and you get really lucky and it cost you a couple grand, all the way to you're a family of four and you want the Cadillac and you want everything quick and you want the best of everything and it's gonna cost you quite a" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:46", "start": 1126.49, "text": "I guess related as well is maybe there are different levels to this, right? So, I think you're, you're typically working with people who are at a more upper level. What are the, I guess, levels that you would say, like maybe there are people who try to do this at like a cheaper level, and then it, like, as you, as you rise in your net worth and your income, at what point does it make sense to do it in the nomad capitalist style, let's say?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "19:13", "start": 1153.26, "text": "Well, I mean, you don't have to go out and get a citizenship by investment. I happen to think that if I'm a crypto investor, the governments are gonna be coming after me sooner than later for more tax, they're gonna regulate me, I'm gonna want a place to go. I think everyone should do something, and I think everyone should work with somebody because you don't wanna make the mistakes. But what you might do if you're just, you know, if you're not the seven or eight figure investor, is you might say, \"I'm not gonna get citizenship by investment, I'm gonna get a residence permit, in a country like Portugal or in a country like a, you know, Mexico or something like that, or I'm gonna get what I call paper residence, and I'm gonna work towards citizenship more slowly, whether I need to spend time in the A lot less due diligence than a citizenship by investment program has. The legal fees are gonna be a little bit less, and there's a lot less to contribute. I think the challenge with a lot of crypto people though is You know, you'll have a guy who comes to you with a million dollars. It's hard to suggest spending a hundred and fifty thousand dollars, fifteen percent of your net worth, on a citizenship buy investment, but if you think crypto is doubling in the next six months and you're an American, that two million dollar net worth now qualifies you that if you give up your citizenship, you're a covered expatriate and you owe a whole bunch of tax potentially. And so it really depends. I mean, you could be a six figure guy, but if things are going through the roof very quickly, you might Whereas, you know, I just had someone recently who's just a traditional entrepreneur, they've got sixty million dollars in the bank, and we decided, you know, one million dollars for European Union citizenship in a year wasn't worth it, because their, their income and their, you know, it's not going through the roof, it's very steady. So I think sometimes for crypto, you get stuck in kind of a catch twenty-two almost where in order to accomplish what you want, you need a more expensive tool, And, and, and so I think that sometimes you spend a disproportionate amount of your wealth, but if you're not in a hurry, then I would say, you know, look at something like setting up a residence permit that leads to citizenship. It's really hard to find good international tax people, honestly. there aren't that many. I've spent a lot of years doing it, but if you could find someone yourself, not, I mean, you know, most of them they have a problem. but You, I think from the citizenship perspective, that one's a lot easier, and the tax perspective, when it comes to crypto, as you know, most people don't know crypto, and then of course, most people don't know international. So I think that one mistake people make is they get discouraged from doing this because they talk to a guy who doesn't know, who's exceedingly conservative, right? We're not, we're not trying to do anything shady here, we're trying to be fully above board, but obviously some people don't know what they're doing, and it just becomes, they become" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:52", "start": 1312.02, "text": "I see, yeah. And so, it's, important to get the right information. and I've seen that there are different strategies available. So for some people, it's about, you know, literally just going and living in a zero or a very low tax jurisdiction, and in other cases, it's more like having a, a, what's it called, a three country shuffle or a, you know, multiple countries approach. Could you maybe contrast and just outline some of the differences in those approaches and how to think about those?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "22:19", "start": 1339.04, "text": "Well, I think what people have often confused is they, they think about digital nomads, right? I'm, I'm not a big fan of labels. I like the label \"nomad capitalist\" 'cause I came up with it, right? But I don't know, am I a digital nomad or not? I think the, the, the challenge I've seen is that people think digital nomads are always dragging a suitcase, you o-- you have thirty-nine possessions. A lot of people don't want that, right? I mean, I like having, I have homes" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "22:49", "start": 1368.7, "text": "The idea of the trifecta, which I think is a great way to live, which could be tax advantageous, and I think is also lifestyle advantageous, which is you have three homes, whether you rent them or own them, and you spend four months a year in each. So that means that if you set up your taxes properly, you can potentially not get sucked into any of those countries' tax nets. you're contributing, I pay more in sales tax in Malaysia, spending three or four months a year there, than the average person pays in a full year of income tax. I don Taking any jobs away from people. So, you know, you can create value without paying income tax. And so I think that the trifecta is one way where I'm able to say, I'm gonna spend some time in Europe and get my Europe in, I'm gonna spend some time in Asia, consumer culture, you know, fast, modern, the future, where I am in Malaysia, super nice people. And right now I'm in Bogota, Colombia. I like the Latin influence coming from the US. They have a few of the tastes of home that I like to, to have every once" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "23:49", "start": 1428.76, "text": "Full time, it would be a tax mess. So it's nice for both reasons to, to kind of enjoy the best of both worlds. However, there are countries where they have either zero tax, like the UAE, they have a tax exclusion, like Portugal for ten years, they have, or Uruguay or places like that, they have a non-dom program like in Ireland, they have territorial taxation, they have special crypto tax breaks. You can pick one of those countries and live there full time, or you can split your time up so that you don't become tax resident in another way. High tax, high tax country. So those are the options. You're certainly free to drag a suitcase behind you. I used to do that for years, you know, a week or two or a month in every country. but I think a lot of people that I talk to who are higher level investors, they like the stability, and so you have the option of one place or two or three, and you can split it up, and, it gives you a lot of advantages." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:43", "start": 1483.48, "text": "Yeah, that sounds really, like a You know, there's options there in terms of how you want to go about this. Now, I think probably many listeners are thinking, okay, but I've, I've got ties here. Like, I have, you know, my, my, how would I raise my kids or how would I look after my parents and my relatives who live here? What are some strategies that you use when, you know, either for yourself or when you're dealing with your clients on how they think about, raising their children or dealing with family who, you know, dealing with family as part of this" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "25:16", "start": 1516.4, "text": "Right. So in my family, I grew up in the Midwest in a very Protestant family, and my parents gave me the permission slip when I was twelve years old. They were the ones, my father, who said, \"Go where you're treated best. Don't think you have to stay here. You should go where the opportunities are best for you. You don't have to take care of us.\" And so I think a lot of people probably weren't that lucky, you know, their parents or their grandparents kind of expect for them to be around. And so what I say to that is," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "25:46", "start": 1546.32, "text": "Tax advice, 'cause every country is different, but a lot of times it's better to come back for little nibbles over the course of a year rather than one big swath, once. So you can come in and check in. What I say is, you know, my wife doesn't understand this, but, you know, my family and I, we weren't seeing each other every, you know, every day, right? So if you come back often enough, you're probably not seeing your family that much less. We have tremendous technology these days, you can talk to people from" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "26:16", "start": 1576.5, "text": "Los Angeles. They lived in Kansas City. They lived in New York, right? I mean, was I abandoning them? So I think that, you know, that's something a lot of people are dealing with, especially in Western countries where people are very mobile, as to raising your own immediate family. I think having a supportive partner who's with you, is good. if you're gonna be having children, there are a lot of benefits. For example, most Latin American countries, if you give birth on their soil, your child becomes an instant citizen and you can work" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "26:47", "start": 1606.9, "text": "so you can start building your own global citizen family. and here's the reality, Stefan, you know, they have schools pretty much everywhere you go these days. It may be shocking to some people, but they do have schools. right now, by the way, with the whole pandemic, nobody's going to school. You're sitting at home on a computer screen. If you can sit at home, you know, on a computer screen in Gary, Indiana, you can do it in Bogota, Colombia, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, or Kathmandu. And All about the mental barrier that people have. the US, I mean, and this is what I talk about, the statistics don't lie. The US has some of the worst schools in the developed world. So if the goal is to go where you're treated best, if the goal is a quality education, you probably ain't getting it where you are right now. That, that ain't, by the way, that's because I went to public school. So, I mean, if you want the best schools, you should send your kids to Korea or Singapore or Taiwan, that's where A lot of people are gonna start doing is hiring tutors. I've talked about that, you know, when I was, dating Mrs. H, my wife, and, and, you know, the idea of hiring someone who travels and teaches the things that, that are important and follows a curriculum. And I think there's a lot of opportunities, I think, for getting into the top universities. They like a rich, you know, history of travel and different experiences and multicultural, so I quite frankly think that, you know, the education is much better doing this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:14", "start": 1694.43, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Unchained Capital are building Bitcoin native financial services, and if you are thinking about your Bitcoin security, you have to consider their multi-signature vaults designed for ultra secure long term storage. You can go to their website and build it on your own, or if you need some assistance, they have a white glove concierge service where their team will ship you the hardware wallet, teach you about multi-signature, answer your questions, and deposit a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in your vault. So that normally is fifteen hundred dollars, but you get fifty dollars Off if you use the code LIVERA. 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I say, yeah, and I think there's certainly some, interesting ways that, I think it's a really about changing people's mindsets as well of thinking how can we achieve this, as opposed to sort of looking for ways that you can't, you can't do it. I think as this is primarily a Bitcoin show, one other important point is just around the practicalities. So in the case of some different residency programs. I know that you have to still deal with fiat banking, right? And you might, they might be saying, \"Oh, we need you to show X number of US dollars in the bank account.\" How do you deal with that in the case of a Bitcoin, investor or entrepreneur?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "30:59", "start": 1858.65, "text": "Well, I'll, I'll just go back to the previous question really quickly, which is, if you're in crypto, what percentage of the world thinks crypto is dangerous? That it's used for shady, that only criminals use it? I mean, how many misconceptions? I think if anybody should understand this, it's someone who's a cryptocurrency investor, right? Because how many people have, you know, played ignorant over the years and continue to do so even as you see this, this increasing adoption, you know, most people don't get it. And so most people don't get this because they Right? but to answer your question, you're correct, and I started really getting into this a couple years ago when I realized, I think the first guy had something like eighty million dollars in Bitcoin, and that was when it was, you know, three thousand dollars a Bitcoin. and I'm like, okay, well, surely this guy must have thirty grand to show Mexico, whoever he has it. nope, Chase Bank has eleven dollars in it. And so I think, you know, what's, what's not a bad idea, there's a couple things I Sometimes to satisfy bure- bureaucrats, they're getting better at this, but sometimes it's better to like turn off the e-statements and have them come in the mail for a couple months. So if you're gonna go and apply, you can just show them the mailed statements, like in a utility bill, something like that. If you don't have utility bills in your name, get something in your name that you can prove your address, that's a big one. for the banking, yeah, I would suggest, I understand the opportunity cost, but the opportunity cost of paying taxes" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "32:27", "start": 1946.86, "text": "Especially for a lot of these residences, like Latin America, some places in Asia, like they wanna see how much monies have you had in the bank for the last three months or six months or twelve months to make sure you're not a deadbeat. And what I tell people is you have to understand you're dealing with bureaucrats, right? And I know as, again, as a libertarian, you sometimes, you hate that, \"Why am I moving to deal with more bureaucrats?\" Because it's still better. There's no one perfect, but if you can put, you know, fifty grand" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "32:57", "start": 1976.76, "text": "month, perhaps, on the first of every month for six months in a row, and then spend that, you know, that's gonna help you because, yes, you're correct, not every country cares. A lot of the citizenship by investments, they just, okay, where's the money coming from? When you're making the donation, you cash out your crypto, you send it through your bank, no problem. But yeah, especially for some of the cheaper programs, they wanna see that you're economically viable, and I think that, you know, getting a head start on either an income and Up to five or six thousand dollars a month. Savings in the bank could range from five thousand dollars up to, you know, low six figures. Depends, you know, there's so many programs. but that is definitely something that you wanna have, and, you might also be required in some cases, again, more for the cheaper programs, to set up a bank account somewhere else. You know, you go to a country in Europe, they want you to put twenty grand in the bank and keep it there, or, you know, you need to open a term deposit to get the residence" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "33:57", "start": 2036.74, "text": "What I'll tell people is, let's just find the lowest opportunity cost, way to get you what you need to lower your taxes and get you the lifestyle that you want." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:06", "start": 2046.3, "text": "Excellent. And are there, this may be already a thing, but perhaps it will grow as a trend also of some programs or agents who will just take payment directly in Bitcoin. Is that also something you're seeing?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "34:20", "start": 2059.66, "text": "Well, we started doing that years ago. there are some programs where the government wants you to pay directly, and there are a couple of them, you know, Antigua and Barbuda in the Caribbean has become, I think, a good adopter of, of cryptocurrency, and so you can, you can do that. but, you know, for service fees and for a lot of the government fees, you know, we've done that. do I see more people doing that? And I try to pay attention what everyone else is doing, in the business, but I think that the smart ones are, I, you know, I, I think that You know, the offshore world is very interesting. There's a lot of, I mean, when I, when I said in 2012, I'm gonna show my face, I'm gonna use my real name, it was kind of like, \"Why would you do that?\" Because there was so little transparency. I think in many ways, it's a very old school business, with people who, you know, sit in, you know, beautiful office towers and, you know, they're 55 and they don't really understand crypto. So I don't know that many companies" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "35:20", "start": 2120.31, "text": "But I think the one, I think a few, and I think there are some that are very friendly to crypto, but I think the governments, are also kind of stuck in the past, right? I, I think when I talk to people in the government, sometimes, you know, I, I'm invited to meet presidents, prime ministers, et cetera, but other times they're like, you know, how many cases have you brought to our island for citizenship? And I said, I had seventeen million viewers last year, people are emailing me left and right that came to your The government to be ahead of the curve is probably not gonna happen, but you do have some countries like Antigua, like Georgia, perhaps like Malta, Bermuda, who are doing things, and you have companies like us who are doing things." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:01", "start": 2161.07, "text": "Excellent. And I'm also curious if there are any common pitfalls that you notice when people are trying to do this. What are some of the, I guess, common, mistakes that people make when they're trying to go through this or maybe the wrong expe-- if they had the wrong expectation going in?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "36:17", "start": 2177.28, "text": "Well, a couple things. I mean, when you're talking about a physical lifestyle and you mentioned the family, and obviously the, the stakes are higher there than if you're single, you're allowed to make a mistake. I think people sometimes look at it as, \"I'm getting into something for the rest of my life.\" You can sign up to live in Dubai or in Lisbon or wherever for a year and then go from there. I think that was the, the greatest thing that I did for myself when I decided to leave the US full time rather than just constant traveling, I said, \"I'm" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "36:47", "start": 2206.96, "text": "I wanted to, to give myself an out to not be embarrassed. I think people, you know, they, they feel comfortable doing that. So that's definitely one thing. I think that also important, especially if you're an American, but increasingly even if you're not, is making everything work together, right? So, you wanna make sure that you're- I have what's called the tax friendly quadrant. Where are you as a person leaving? Where are you as a person arriving? Where is your business, or in this case, your crypto leaving? Where is it arriving? You need to satisfy all four of those areas. So again, simply saying, \"I'm just gonna get on a plane and fly out of Australia, and I'm not gonna do all the proper paperwork or get the proper advice or get a tax memorandum or get an opinion letter or, you know, whatever,\" you're opening yourself up to thinking that, you're clean when maybe five" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "37:34", "start": 2254.28, "text": "years to catch up to you in some cases, these tax authorities. And so imagine that you thought you were saving money, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, and it turns out five years from now you've got a three million dollar tax bill, right? so I think it has to be holistic. What you do in each country needs to support rather than hinder what you're doing in the other countries. And, lastly, make sure you're setting up shop, from a tax perspective in a country that legitimately has tax benefits. I hear so many people It's saying get Panama friendly nations visa, and you only need to spend one day in Panama for the tax benefits. There's so much sleight of hand like that, where to be a Panama tax resident, you either need to demonstrate a substantial connection to the country or spend six months in the country, right? One day per year might keep your permanent residence active, but it's the tax, you know, tax residents and permanent residents aren't the same thing. And so, you know, I have residence permits all over the world, doesn't mean I'm getting tax benefits or tax disadvantages from them. So So I think that those are the things that you need to work on. And, you know, what I say is, I don't want people to chase shiny objects. If you call the lawyer in Panama, the solution every time is gonna be Panama. And for most people, the idea is not to have- You know, a shiny object. You're not chasing after Saint Kitts because that's what everyone else in the crypto business got. You're chasing after what works best for you. I, I even had some of my own friends call me recently and said, \"Oh, we wanna get the Saint Lucia passport.\" I said, \"Why?\" They said, \"Because we saw you got it.\" Well, who cares what I got? I mean, three years have passed, four years have passed, new opportunities are out there. I was single then, you're married. I mean, I- I don't copy what I'm doing, so hopefully that's a, a number of things people can avoid. And, and I, and I also say, don't be too cocky. I, I see people doing that and getting themselves in pitfalls." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:23", "start": 2363.48, "text": "Yeah, I think that's very, sound advice for people out there. one other theme that I would love to touch on, and I know you're probably interested in this also, is this idea of jurisdictional competition. I, I'm very interested in this because I think it's one way that people can actually put some competitive pressure By having more people willing to up and leave, it forces governments in some ways to be less bad, right? They have to either tax less and regulate less to try to, encourage people to either stay or to entice people. So is that a, a trend that you are seeing in terms of, the nomad capitalist world?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "40:02", "start": 2401.51, "text": "Well, here's my perspective, right? When you leave a girlfriend or a boyfriend who is abusive or who isn't treating you well, is your goal that that sense- The message that hopefully for the next person they shape up, or do you just wanna go where you're treated best? I think so many people try and be academic about this. Well, you know, Monaco only has low tax, zero tax because, they have a casino, or, you know, Dubai only has zero tax 'cause the country has oil. Okay, so what? Right? What do you care? I think that, yes, you're correct. I think what you're seeing though is, and, and I've said this to BBC and Bloomberg and Fox Business and, you know, they're asked, they-- I was, I was on Fox Business over the New Year, and they said, \"Uh, why don't people just move to Florida?\" I said, \"Because it's not go where you're treated a little bit better, it's go where you're treated best. If you're gonna move out of California, if you're putting the stuff in Right? Don't go from fifty percent to forty four, go to zero, go to four, go to seven. And I think that, some governments aren't gonna compete for you. I use the term legacy brands. The US is a legacy brand. It is- You know, like whatever brand that you would pay a premium for, but not get a premium experience or a premium product, they are living off of the fumes of a once great brand. Why do you think some of the top, Italian fashion manufacturers go to such pains to hide what allegedly is that their products are mostly made in Romania, shipped to Italy, and then just, you know, two stitches are put in and they can say made in Italy? They're doing that because they wanna preserve a legacy brand so people pay a thousand dollars for a pair of shoes. Now, there's nothing wrong I have some nice shoes. Nothing wrong with buying nice shoes for a thousand dollars if you understand you're not getting the best deal potentially. Maybe you're living in California to show off, but you're not going where you're treated best. And so I don't think that legacy brands like the US or California or, you know, Australia or Canada, are gonna improve. But I think there are other countries that have come up in my lifetime and your lifetime that have decided We're gonna continue to be a hell hole if we don't offer something interesting. And you look, by the way, look at the Index of Economic Freedom, the Heritage Foundation puts out, I've been looking at it for twenty five years. Georgia, and three other ex-communist countries are now beating the United States in terms of economic freedom. When I was born or where you were born, these were like Soviet countries. They were a disaster. They weren't even on the list, right? And look at what they've done, because they've taken nimble and fast action to be competitive. There, just go to the girl that's nice to you and smiles and treats you nicely and your mother likes. Don't worry what the last girl is doing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:48", "start": 2568.1, "text": "Of course. And I think that's a totally fair comment. I think perhaps I would modify my statement a little bit. What I'm talking more is about also, I guess, the sustainability of the overall approach, that, you know, it's not, it's not about being spiteful to your ex-girlfriend or, you know, ex-government, but rather- wanting there to be a better environment overall, and I think maybe that's the world we're moving into, is that, you know, Bitcoin and other technologies are giving people this possibility that, you know, but, now the, the counterpoint to that though, is that it's a constantly changing game, is that different countries are talking about wealth taxes, and I think you've mentioned the possibility also of unrealized capital gains taxes. How do you think about, you know, trying to stay ahead of that, and it's a constantly shifting game as well?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "43:36", "start": 2615.92, "text": "Well, I think again about the nomad on the step, right? am I confident the plan I've put in place is gonna last me? I'm thirty-six years old, I don't know, maybe I'll make it to fifty-two, maybe I'll make it to ninety-two, who knows? But am I confident it'll last me until the end of my life? I don't know. it works for me now, and I'm willing to adapt, and I have diversified and become comfortable going back to the mindset and the comfort. I've become comfortable being in other environments that I'm capable of moving. if you look at wealth tax, for example, you're right. Wealth tax, I've seen more of the legacy brand countries talk about that. I mean, it's, it's on our news feed, it's in all-- in the tax journals that we read every freaking day. And yet, when they came out in Malaysia and said, \" And, and we're probably not gonna go back to that. you look at countries like Indonesia, which are loosening up their tax regimes and making it more friendly for foreigners, they're lowering taxes on investments, Indonesia, and they're gonna make it to where it's very friendly for foreigners to live, if they're not generating an in-income from Indonesia. So I think that water seeks its own level, and when some places become too difficult, others will nat-- will naturally pop up. I do think that I, I've talked about what I call the visa waiver program, Paradox where certain countries, perhaps like a Chile, once they become able to visit the US without a visa, once they reach that loftiest of heights for many countries, then they have no problems and they go back to, \"How do we soak the rich?\" Some of them. so there certainly is that, which is why I like staying in more off the radar, less talked about, emerging countries that feel just as comfortable to live in but that aren't too big for their britches. And listen, there may come a time when if some of the places like Chile that were good for a while, you know, maybe the United States turns around thirty years from now, maybe they get their act together. But I kinda look at it like, you know, if you're an alcoholic, you've gotta hit rock bottom before you seek sobriety. And I don't think that the US is gonna turn around very quickly. And so, you know, even if you went somewhere else and things got a little worse, they're still probably The half. but I don't see that other countries are doing this crazy stuff because the politics haven't been about, like, you go to Malaysia, the Malay people who are in charge of the government, the nicest people you'll meet, and I think they pretty much just leave you alone. People say, \"Oh, it's a Muslim country,\" there are foreigners, there are the non-Malay locals who walk around dressed like, you know, you wouldn't even believe, and no one says anything. It's not their place to judge, and I think that, you know, they That's the culture. The culture in the Western world now is, \"How dare you have any money?\" so I think it's a different, I think it starts with the culture. If you look at the culture, I think you'll see the right place to go." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:29", "start": 2788.52, "text": "I think you make a great point around the cultural aspects of it. I'm also curious your thoughts on- How many people this kind of lifestyle? I think you're open to the, you're, I guess, you're open about this idea that, look, nomad capitalism isn't for everyone. It, it works better for people who have a certain level of, you know, net wealth or net worth and a certain, I guess, aptitude. Who are the people who it's best, you know, placed for?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "46:55", "start": 2815.32, "text": "Well I don't know that you have to have a certain level of net wealth. That's certainly the people that I'm talking to, and I think that the things that I talk about in terms of owning multiple homes, obtaining multiple citizenships are designed for someone who wants to protect their assets and, and have a comfortable life. Certainly there are people who are, you know, traveling around the world on a thousand dollars a month, and I made a video recently on YouTube where I would live if I had to start all over and I was just making a thousand bucks a month in income somehow. But I, you know, I think there has to be an open-mindedness. I mean, I come back to that. I talked recently about the, the two first steps to leaving the US, and, and the, the big first one was you just have to get your mind right. You've got to look at the statistics. You know, for me, the US, where I'm from Number one in nothing except prisoners per capita, banking system was the fortieth best during the last global recession, at the time when you needed to be the strongest, it was fortieth in the world. You know, education system is bad, thirtieth best healthcare. You know, if you're a fact person, does what the facts. You may not like the facts, but I think that's what people have to get over, and I think that's eighty percent of the battle. Right? I don't think, you know, so many people spend too much time strategizing on, \"Is Panama better than Costa Rica?\" And how many days? And this one and that. The first issue is committing to do it. The first issue to, to committing to do it is understanding that you need to do it. And I also think it's a matter of, is it painful enough? you know, for me, I look at the idea of paying a cou-- well, I used to pay a country that wastes the money, that doesn't represent my values. They don't thank me for it. No one's happy I send them money. In fact, there was a billionaire who said I paid eighty-nine million dollars in taxes last year, and, people don't think that's a fair enough share. For the roads and the bridges and the schools. And so if that is painful to you, you're gonna be motivated to take action. If life is comfortable, then you're not gonna take action. Right? I'm convinced. I have a, a slightly crude theory that, you know, if you're 13 and all the girls are interested in you, you know, for your entire middle school and high school, you ha-- you would probably have a lower chance of being successful 'cause there's no drive. For many men, what's the motivation? You wanna get, you know, hot chicks. And so, you know, what's the drive gonna be? If there's no drive, if you just don't mind paying a million dollars a year to Wear the mask when he tells you to wear the mask. I mean, then just do that, right? But if there's a pain, if you're saying, \"This is ridiculous, I'm being taken advantage of,\" then I think you're the person who can go and look at, \"How do I change my mindset and realize it's gonna be okay and probably better somewhere else?\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:31", "start": 2971.33, "text": "Really, good way to summarize it, I think. so Andrew, I wanna respect your time, I know we're coming to the end of our time. So just before we let you go," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "49:43", "start": 2982.54, "text": "Well, we're at nomadcapitalist dot com. We have a YouTube channel with over eleven hundred, videos, put out one at least every day. We've got over two thousand articles at nomadcapitalist dot com. You can also learn how to, work with us. And then I wrote, for the people who are watching, on TV, the book called Nomad Capitalist. This isn't a how-to guide of which country, you know, is the exact country for you, but what it is is a collection of two hundred and eighty pages of stories So that's like nine bucks or something on Kindle. so we've got a lot of free resources, we put out a lot more. and I think this is something that you want to explore for a little while, right? If someone just reaches out to me the moment they're hearing this for the first time, it's probably not gonna be quite as effective because they're not gonna be quite as, is there yet. And I think that for something like this, that's so new, go and watch a hundred videos on YouTube, Nomad Capitalist, you know, go and read the An idea for what's possible. I think that's what's been with the people that I work with, the most successful in helping them really get into this, understand it, you know, jive with it. And by the way, maybe you watch a hundred videos and then figure out, \"This sucks, I'm not doing it. This isn't worth the, the hassle.\" And that's fine too." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:58", "start": 3057.61, "text": "Excellent. Well, Andrew, thank you very much. It was a very interesting conversation, I'm sure my listeners enjoyed it. Thank you for spending the time with us. Thank you, Stefan. Pleasure. So I think the conversation around going overseas for additional freedom or tax savings has become more prominent. So I'm curious what you think. Of course, you can email me or DM me on Twitter, my DMs are open, and of course, you can get the show notes at stephanlivera dot com slash two fifty for this episode. Thanks, and I will see you in the Citadel." } ] }