{ "episodeId": "SLP264", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "roy_sheinfeld_of_breez": { "name": "Roy Sheinfeld of Breez", "role": "guest", "tag": "ROY" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 9.09, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. Today, for episode two hundred and sixty-four, my guest is Roy Sheinfeld of Breez. He re-joins me on the show, and we talk about the latest with Breez, how it can make sense for you or your friends and family if they want to become a lightning merchant and use this to accept Bitcoin, and we also talk about Podcasting two point oh using Lightning to stream SATs to your favorite podcasters. But first, a message from the sponsors of the show." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld_of_breez", "time": "00:42", "start": 41.99, "text": "Greetings, Stefan Livera fans. This is Dre here, and I've some big news to share. Swan Bitcoins new private client services division is open for business. So last August, MicroStrategy CEO, Michael Saylor, kicked off the trend of companies buying Bitcoin for their balance sheets. A few A flood of high-profile investors and companies have joined him, names like Paul Tudor Jones, BlackRock, Square, and Tesla. Swan Private exists to meet the massive international demand from thousands of companies, family offices, and high-net-worth investors from all around the globe. If you're thinking of buying between one hundred thousand and one hundred million US dollars worth of Bitcoin over the next year, visit swanbitcoin dot com slash private. That's swanbitcoin dot com slash private, followed on Onboarding form, or email the CEO personally, cory at swanbitcoin dot com. That's c o r y at swanbitcoin dot com. Respect fans and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:42", "start": 102.01, "text": "one love. Lend at HodlHodl is a non-custodial Bitcoin backed lending platform. This allows you to lend and borrow globally and anonymously. If you have stablecoins, you can lend them and earn attractive returns. HodlHodl's lending allows you to earn twenty five percent APR on average, one of the highest returns on the market. Also, if you have Bitcoin and you don't want to sell your Bitcoin, you can borrow against them as collateral so you can get fiat stablecoin liquidity without trusting your money to one party. On Lend at HodlHodl, your Bitcoin collateral always Locked in escrow. Lend at HodlHodl is a Bitcoin DeFi allowing peer-to-peer lending and borrowing directly. So with the platform, you set your own terms and put up offers depending on how long you want to borrow or lend and the interest rate. Go check it out, the website is lend.hodlholdl.com. Compass is an online marketplace making it easier for everyone to mine Bitcoin and enhance the Bitcoin network's security. This is the anti-cloud mining option. Compass will help you buy your own ASIC application specific integrated circuit and find secure hosting at great facilities around the world. So for years we've heard mining's only profitable if you're investing lots of money, but now with Compass, everyone can tap into those economies of scale. And if you're unsure about how to get started, Compass offers hardware and hosting bundles. And check out my earlier episode. two hundred and fifty nine with Whit Gibbs from the team. Compass eliminates the need for advanced technical knowledge and you can get started mining Bitcoin. Go to compassmining dot io and start mining today. On to the show. Roy, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "03:13", "start": 193.3, "text": "Hi Stefan, great to be back. How" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:15", "start": 195.34, "text": "are you? So there's been a lot of stuff going on since we spoke on the show last time, so, maybe just give us a, give us a flavor of what you're working on these days over at Breez." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "03:27", "start": 206.79, "text": "Sure, sure. So Breez, for those of you unfamiliar with the work that we do on Lightning, we're, we're basically building, services, on top of Lightning Network to help Bitcoin, Bitcoin Become a medium of exchange. a lot of folks are don't believe that Bitcoin can, become a medium of exchange, but we are and we're aggressively working to, to make that a reality. I don't know when we've spoken last, but, it's been, it's been a hell of a ride, in Lightning. Last year, we were mostly focused on, on, on improving the infrastructure and the user experience of, of, Lightning on mobile. some of the s-stuff that we've implemented include creating channels on the fly, implementing zero-confirmation channels, supporting MPP, graph optimization, a lot of the stuff that we, we, we, we are doing is, is to be able to run, Lightning, Lightning Node in an optimal, manner on a mobile device. so good portions of, last year were dedicated to that But, on top of that, we are-- we also started adding vertical solutions on top of our platforms. last year, we've added a point of sale, to Breez, allowing everyone out there to be a merchant with a-- with a click of a button, basically. No need for a bank account, no need for anything, just download Breez, switch to the point of sale view, and you are all set, ready to accept. Accept Lightning payments. And, most recently, a week ago actually, we've added, podcasting support. Podcasting two point zero is now included, in Breez, allowing, users, listeners to, to stream sets to their favorite podcasters." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:44", "start": 344.22, "text": "Excellent. That's a, obviously gonna be my favorite, feature. So, I wonder why. Maybe that's, yeah, that's, that's gonna be the incentive. It's like you guys put in the lightning podcasting, so now I'll show, y-you know, your app to listeners so that they can, you know, do two, do two in one, right? Why not? That, that works for" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "06:02", "start": 361.85, "text": "me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:03", "start": 362.75, "text": "Yeah. So look, I guess just to bring it back a step, just for listeners who are new, I've got a few listeners who are new, obviously we're going through a bull market. So people who are listening and you're not really sure what is all this Lightning stuff, think of it as an easy way to do lower cost transactions and essentially, you know, you can get around that. There's, there's obviously some engineering and some trade-offs around this, but an easy way to get started is to try with Bree. So, Roy, can you just tell listeners if they What does the experience look like and what can they do, off the get-go?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "06:38", "start": 397.62, "text": "Well, actually, you know, a lot of our users don't really understand how the stuff works behind the scenes. It just works. So you download Breez, you, you put, you top up the wallet with, some satoshis. You can, you can even buy Bitcoin, we have a partnership with MoonPay, you can buy Bitcoin using your credit card or bank account. You can, you can receive, satoshis via Lightning Network. Or you can, even do an on-chain, transaction. We do, we are a Lightning wallet, so everything is, is, is swapped To, to, to Bitcoin on Lightning, off-chain, and, and you, you start, paying stuff or listening to podcasts or whatever, do whatever you want, we don't know what you're doing with your Satoshi's. you know, you know, a lot of our users don't even, you know, we get a lot of, we, we get a lot of feedback that, well, yeah, Breez is great, but it's custodial. Well, no, because it's so easy to use. Breeze is not a Sodio, Breeze, when you top up your wallet and you don't have a Lightning channel, we open a channel on the fly and, and, and swap your satoshis to, to the Lightning channel, and you can, instantly start sending or, or receiving, payments." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:08", "start": 488.03, "text": "Yeah, so that's a really cool feature around Breeze. So I've- Obviously for listeners who are new, we very much encourage in Bitcoin this ethos, not your keys, not your coins. And so that means, as an example, you can, you want to try to use the services that give you more sovereignty and more power in your control. And so that's a good way, and this might be a good option for you, maybe you're a new listener or maybe you're a regular listener and you're thinking of what to tell your friends when they wanna get started. And so for some of them, you know, they are gonna do- Just be more interested in getting a hardware wallet and just stacking into that. But those people who want to get involved into, you know, this, this world and, try to earn Sats, maybe this is a way for you, for you. And so, for example, you might have an exchange and you might have bought some Bitcoin. Well, now you can withdraw some out of that exchange into your Breez wallet, and then you can do that with a Bitcoin on-chain transaction from your, the exchange, right? You might go to the exchange and say, \"Hey, I want to" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:11", "start": 550.87, "text": "Breez will then swap that in, into Lightning for you, right?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "09:14", "start": 554.47, "text": "Exactly, exactly. And then we also have users using, I don't, can't recall the name of the mining company who, who, who compensate users for, I think it's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:25", "start": 565.38, "text": "NiceHash." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "09:26", "start": 566.28, "text": "Exactly. So NiceHash supports Lightning, you can, you can withdraw, from, NiceHash to, to Breez. there's plenty of Lightning supporting services, including, you know, fun games. Like, Thunder Games, that Jack is developing or, or Lightning Roulette and others, you know? so you can also, do that if you want. we have, heavy Thunder Games users using Breez." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:55", "start": 594.88, "text": "Yeah, that's really cool. And so I can imagine, obviously there's the obvious pushback which some people will be like, \"Hey, why do I spend my Bitcoin? I wanna, I wanna hold it only.\" But I, I would just say, remember, in order for you to get those sats, unless you mined them yourself, someone had to sell or spend the-- for you to get those sats. And so that's, I guess, part of how, you know, we have to recognize this is a, this is a phenomenon and an overall economy. Now, yes, I People who want to live on the Lightning, you know, today, people who want to use it today, and there are people out there who do do that, do that a lot, by the" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "10:32", "start": 632.47, "text": "way. You know, we, we've been growing like crazy, so a lot of people are using their sets. And I think we can get into that discussion, but I think that if you get, to think about, the meaning of holding and, and, and Bitcoin, as a store of value, I think what people sometimes miss to understand or don't, realize that in order to be a great store of value, Bitcoin has to become also a medium of exchange." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:03", "start": 662.99, "text": "Yeah. And I think it, this really enables people to do that, and I think it also makes a lot of sense for, The merchant case, right? So let's say you are a one-off, you know, and you don't have the time to go and set up a full-blown thing, you just wanna get started the easy way. So you can just start up Breez and it's got a POS app. So for those of you out there, if you have friends who are thinking about trying to accept Bitcoin for their services, you can get them onto Breez, start it just like that. You can literally get them to download the app and toggle, like, set up a wallet and then toggle over to Start accepting Sats and they're kind of like a merchant just using, their iPhone or, even like an iPad, right?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "11:46", "start": 706.16, "text": "Exactly. And as you said, Stephan, every, every time that, we add a hodler to the Bitcoin network, someone sold, his Bitcoin or their Bitcoin, so, in order to, to- To, to, to grow the adoption of Bitcoin, you need to sell some of your Bitcoin. and, and Breez is a, is a very easy, simple way for merchants to onboard. I'm getting pictures all around the world from people in India, for people in the Philippines, from people in, in Brooklyn, New York, you know, all over really," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "12:26", "start": 746.35, "text": "street merchants, using Breez in order to accept SATs, which is, you know Absolutely wonderful." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:33", "start": 753.09, "text": "Yeah, that's really cool to hear. Now, I'm curious as well, because this might be a point of contention around the community where obviously people want there to be this non-custodial culture, but I understand that in some parts of the world, people literally, you know, for them to pay an on-chain fee, it, it is actually quite a high amount even to open that channel. So how are you thinking about that? And is, is-- would you say there are certain thresholds and maybe below? Like a certain threshold, they actually do have to use custodial lightning or perhaps community custodial as opposed to just kind of, an un-ununknown custodial. Or do you, yeah, how are you thinking about that question there for those people?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "13:16", "start": 795.9, "text": "well, the reason, I started Breez is to demonstrate that you can have, w-when people talk about custodial, typically they talk about, the user experience. And my, my, my reason of starting Breez is to demonstrate and to show the world that we can do, we can keep all the Bitcoin values and, and still make a Bitcoin, a currency and, and have a user experience that is on par with custodial services and with fiat. There is, of course, a question of opening channels. what we do in Breez, we take a minimum fee of, of, when we open a channel, actually to point one percent. from the transaction, but, right now, for this specific operation, we are losing money, meaning we are subsidizing the, the, the, the channel, the channel open, opening right now. for some of the users." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "14:19", "start": 858.91, "text": "I, I hope that with the vertical solutions like the merchant solutions and with the, content consumption like, podcasting, then we'll make enough money out of, users that will keep subsidizing, channel opening for those who, who who, who can't pay the fee, for these channels. so in the long run, exactly like, email is free and, and a lot of the SaaS services, people are using are free, being, and this free, free model is being subsidized by, by, by heavy users, I, I think, and I'm seeing that, that is, that, that's the, that's what's happening right now With Breez, I think we'll be able to subsidize a lot of the channel opens for users who can't pay for channel opens and retain this non-custodial model, because for me, Bitcoin is Bitcoin only if it exists in a non-custodial fashion. There's no point in, in developing custodial solutions, they're just, just another form of banks." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:30", "start": 929.99, "text": "Yeah, right. And so let's talk through some of the typical hurdles that maybe in years gone by, because obviously Lightning is very early, right? A lot of people say, \"Oh yeah, see, Lightning's been around, and it's been how many years, and another eighteen months,\" and these are the typical things people would say. And obviously in the early days, there was not as much, routing capability, and so you might be a lot more likely to run into some kind of routing failure when attempting a Lightning payment. But nowadays, that's, that's improved significantly. Been around those kinds of initial issues that people were facing in the early days versus where we are today, in twenty twenty-one." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "16:09", "start": 969.18, "text": "Yeah. There are still issues, Stefan, let's be honest. Lightning isn't perfect yet. people are bugging me because the Breez is still in beta, and we have a warning when you open the app that, don't put, money that you don't want to lose, but, I have to be trans-transparent and, and very, very clear with our users. Of course, I think Lightning is still in beta. That's my personal, position, and that's how I present that to the world. but Lightning has improved significantly. Specifically in terms of liquidity, two major, features were added to Lightning, last year. One is one for channels, the, the ability to open large amount, channels between, hubs, between, Lightning nodes, and that increased, the liquidity of the network significantly. The other improvement, which is, I think much more important and, were, was key to the development Development of, Lightning and the ability to route, payments from, one node to the other is MPP, the ability to split, a payment to multiple parts and, and, and, and route this, payment ver, via different, different, routing, path, paths. that was a huge improvement, and I, I, you know, I'm witnessing the, the, the, the, the average, transaction amount increases from, I think a couple of years ago, two years ago it was around the, one dollar, two dollars, and now it's, fifty, it's around fifty bucks even, A, a transaction. And I don't know if you saw the, the Eric Ward read about trying to pay," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "18:04", "start": 1083.69, "text": "trying to pay in Lightning, he, he was successful to, to, to, to send the one hundred thousand, bucks, via Breez, by the way, because of MPP, because this payment was, split to multiple parts." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:19", "start": 1098.86, "text": "Was it, was it a thousand dollars? I can't recall exactly. Yeah. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "18:21", "start": 1101.18, "text": "yeah, it was, I think, one point eight million satoshis, which is thousand dollars, one thousand dollars, I think, yeah, something in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:29", "start": 1109.04, "text": "that range, yeah." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "18:30", "start": 1110.22, "text": "Yeah. and that was something that is, you warned, you, you couldn't do that a year ago, and even, six months ago, that was impossible. and now it's a reality. and MPP, yeah, MPP really helped, to, to, to, to, to route the larger payment, more re-reliably" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:59", "start": 1139.04, "text": "Yeah, and I think that reliability is key because when you are taking a new person in, you want them to have a nice experience, and so doing all these little things, and I think a lot of the Lightning apps and Lightning builders in the space have really put a lot of work in to smooth over a lot of these little things and hide things away in the corners, like little things like, having the channel automatically open or automatically able to take, to receive, right? Because I remember, I think, Breez in the early days, you had to wait for the channel to confirm." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:33", "start": 1173.39, "text": "Yeah. And that's changed now, right? That's changed, yes. There's a lot of, it's not small, incremental changes, but there's a lot of incremental ch-changes that seem small maybe to the end users. But make the entire experience much more seamless and holistic, creating, channels on the fly, meaning you don't need to op- to, to, to, to wait, to the channel to be open. The channel is being created on the fly when you receive a payment, and you, and we create a zero confirmation channel, meaning you can immediately spend, the funds, after receiving without waiting for on-chain confirmation. also MPP is, is a huge deal in mobile. We've actually o-optimized and, and, and changed the MPP algorithm on mobile devices, to allow the user to spend all the funds from all of the channels that, they have, inside the mobile device, inside Breez. that's not how MPP worked, but this is, something that users expect. Meaning, you receive funds, you c- you are able to spend all the funds, you know? It seems trivial in, in a, in a fiat application, not as trivial in a non-custodial lightning application, and, and we've implemented that. Although I don't know if you recall the issue of, a channel reserve. yes. Yeah. So in lightning, there's a, there's a, there's a need to save some of the sat locked forever until the channel closes. and we've, we've, we modified with four LND to get rid of that as well, so you can, send all your funds, and have a zero balance in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:20", "start": 1280.13, "text": "Breez. Yeah, so I'm curious then, could that represent a risk to Breez's side if, I, I don't know, maybe someone is being more adversarial or someone's like thinking very attacker-minded if they were to spin up a lot of these and then just- Burn, burn a lot of, you know, Breezer's capacity or a lot of Breezer's sats on channel closes." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:41", "start": 1301.14, "text": "Well, keep in mind that with the zero channel reserve, we are the one that are opening the channel. So actually, the zero, the zero channel reserve is, is, is for users that open channels and then close channel immediately, to lock, users' funds. so if we are the one that are opening the channels, I think we're" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:06", "start": 1326.06, "text": "Yeah, I see. and then also the big problem early was people were struggling to get inbound liquidity. So they had this issue where they would start up a Lightning wallet, but then not be able to receive because they didn't have any incoming capacity. And I think that's one area where Breez, kind of innovated in that way to make it, you know, a much more slick experience where they just, yeah, how open the wallet and they're able to receive straight away. So what kind of capacity do they have when they start Breez up today? They don't have any capacity when they start Breez." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "22:40", "start": 1359.81, "text": "That's the, the, the, the whole deal with the zero confirmation channel. they- So, so let's take a step back for a second. We call this, service an LSP, Lightning Service Provider. Lightning Service Provider is the entity that onboards, users to the Lightning Network, exactly like an ISP onboards users to the internet. so Breez has this, very sleek, cool, Lightning client, but it also has this, part, of providing, LSP, LSP services. Being an LSP in the network. so when you install Breez, you don't have any, inbound capacity when you start receiving funds in Breez, then we, the LSP opens a channel, to the end user, to the, to the node running on the, on the mo-mobile device, and we currently add, one hundred K of satoshis extra to the, to the incoming payment, and we do that by- Creating an on-the-fly channel with zero confirmation, so, so it's very dynamic, and we do that up to a four million satoshis we limit the, the, the local balance of all the channels to four million satoshis." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:03", "start": 1442.57, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah, let me just quickly say what that then allows people to be a merchant straight away, right? Like if they were to receive-- And so I guess they can fund it either with a on-chain payment or with a Lightning payment, and it will swap into, or it'll become a channel, on their side, right?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "24:21", "start": 1461.0, "text": "Exactly. Or by f- or by Bitcoin, via MoonPay or via, With Phoenix or other, Lightning supporting exchange or, or not, you know, we, because we also do swaps on chain, two off-chain swaps, but merchants need, actually don't need to fund the wallet, they, they need to fund the wallet from customers, whenever a customer want to purchase something, they send them a Lightning payment and the, the channel is being automatically opened immediately." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:51", "start": 1490.92, "text": "Yeah, and that's a really cool factor because I think if I were to try and onboard somebody as a merchant- merchant and I didn't wanna have to go and teach them, oh hey man, you gotta set up your channels and you gotta make sure you got inbound capacity and maybe you gotta loop out. Here it's more like, no, just get this app, receive it on the app, and then the app will deal with all the channels in the background. So I think that's an important factor just to call that out just for people who are new if you're thinking about how to start taking payment. Now, I guess this would just be- I guess it makes the most sense if you are just kind of a one man band, but I guess how would it work in the case where, let's say, it's a store and there's multiple employees and you now you need to start managing it like that, how would you, sort of build it from there for a merchant that is?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "25:35", "start": 1534.76, "text": "So we have a feature in the Breez point of sale, which is," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "25:42", "start": 1542.33, "text": "manage, manage your passwords or manage your something, I don't know, it, it, it, it, it, it turns the wallet to, to, to, to You receive only mode, when you switch it on, and only, only admins, only managers can unlock the wallet and to spend the funds from Breez. So imagine a, a store with multiple workers, you set up Breez for all your, employees, and you switch, for the, the, the, the employees that you don't want them to, to spend funds, you switch the manager pass for the sales Settings and then, you are all set." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:26", "start": 1586.11, "text": "Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, so that makes a lot of sense then. So, you know, it's, you could have, let's say, an iPad in the store and then the employees can punch in and they can ring up the bill and say, \"Oh, this is thirty dollars for your order.\" The customer just pays it either on chain or lightning, and then later the manager can come along and enter their PIN and, you know, exactly receive some or spend some of that out or exactly, yeah, exactly, do what they want out of that. And so I guess then the other thing we have a merchant" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "26:52", "start": 1612.42, "text": "that installed Breez on their employees' mobile devices, and they set the password on their employees' mobile devices, so, we have that as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:05", "start": 1624.63, "text": "right. Well, there you go. So that's another way where you could have multiple devices, all being in play at the same time to be for that same merchant. And then on the other side, so let's say that merchant now wants some fiat, so, you know, they need to pay their bills, they need some fiat, Australian dollars or US dollars or whatever. Then at that point, that's where they might need to then go find an exchange to deposit, and they would send, you know, deposit using Lightning into that exchange to get their US dollars, Australian Or whatever out, or obviously if they, if they're able to find someone who wants to buy it cash in person, okay, but, in most cases they're probably just gonna be going to an exchange for that, right?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "27:44", "start": 1663.82, "text": "Exchange or a broker, MoonPay's, support sales, sell as well, you have a very nice service from Bitrefill that allows you to, to, to, to have a fixed fiat amount, and, Hold the, the, the amount in a, in a Bitrefill card, inbuilt refill if you don't want to face, price volatility. so there are a lot of, options out there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:13", "start": 1692.66, "text": "clever, yeah. So you could basically buy that Bitrefill card and at the end of the day, say, and then just hold those and then spend those if you needed them inside the Bitrefill ecosystem. And so that's another way to kind of play together. So I think that's what you- We were talking about with this idea of Breez not just being a wallet, but being kind of like a lightning platform, if you will, to enable these connections. So, can you tell us a little bit about some of the connections there then? Like, what other ways are you looking for Breez to sort of collaborate or, you know, facilitate?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "28:46", "start": 1725.6, "text": "Yeah, yeah, so definitely. So Breez is actually, as you said, a platform. You know, I even in the, in the first show that, that we've done, I, I, I think the, the term is a good fit for, for a Lightning client, wallet is just a very small aspect of what, we do and other are doing in the ecosystem. There is a wallet, but it's also just, a very small part of, of being a, a payment, service in the Lightning ecosystem. LSP is another part of that, but also the, the, the infrastructure, the platform that we're building inside the client. So we have, A point of sale, we have, we have, a, a, a podcasting, which is the first, example of, streaming sets for content, we can, we can discuss this further in a second, but we also have an apps, view, and in the apps view, it's an open marketplace for lightning apps. So every app that supports, every lightning app that supports WebLN, can be integrated into Breez and we- We have a lot of, apps in the, a lot of. We have, I think a dozen apps in the Breez, marketplace that our users are really i-injoy and use a lot. so LN market, is being heavily used among, the Breez users, to, to trade, to bet on, the Bitcoin price, to short or long Bitcoin, and they're earning cents, as a result or losing cents. As a result, a bit refill is, is being heavily used and, we have our, we have swap services to other shitcoins and we have, whatever like a lightning roulette and, and, and we have Spendel, which, which allows you to, to top up a credit card, a, a debit card, using lightning and buy whatever you'd like with, with the debit card. so there's a really nice ecosystem of, Lightning apps, out there, and we expect, to have more. what we want to do in Breez is Is actually to keep building Breez as an open platform, for in, in, in many ways. So Breez, unlike, other services, is, is, is open, in a sense that we, we, we don't limit you to the Breez LSP. you can open channel against other, other, other nodes, in Breez. so we want to add more LSPs to Breez. To add Lightning Pool to Breez, in order to increase, liquidity, or, or even eventually for you to, to, to earn some, interest on your, bitcoins. There's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff that we're planning in that regard" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:57", "start": 1916.97, "text": "Back to the show in a moment after a message for the sponsors. Unchained Capital are building Bitcoin native financial services, and they are building it on a foundation of multi-signature. So if you heard my recent episode with Parker Lewis, they are creating multi-signature vaults. So you can buy two hardware wallets, and you can go and set up and create an ultra secure long-term storage vault. But if you want some guidance, they have a concierge service. Their team will teach you about multi-signature, they will ship you two hardware wallets, they'll answer your questions and do a video call They will deposit a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in your vault, and you get fifty dollars off if you use the code Laveria. 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We'll have to get into some of that, but I think we'll also get into the podcasting now. So, tell us a little bit about how the Lightning podcasting works." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "34:19", "start": 2058.6, "text": "Yeah, so podcasting is, is, is podcasting two point oh that was, it's been pushed by Adam, the wonderful Adam Purian and Dave Jones. i-i-podcasting two point oh is an open, podcasting platform allowing everyone to register their RSS, their podcast RSS in podcastindex dot org, that's their site. And, and the Lightning is a great fit with podcasting two point o b-because, the, the entire idea of, podcasting, two point o is to have, an open platform for, a, a, a free platform for freedom of speech. and, and in order to achieve that, you really need, peer-to-peer money. You really need to have peer-to-peer economy. Because of censorship, not only censorship, but also, let, let, let, let me break it down to you. So Currently in the podcasting world, and you know that, better than, than me for sure, podcasters are making money through advertisement. and these, advertisers and the content curators are actually control, the content. If they don't like some-something that is being said, in the podcaster, they're, they're stop, the funding of the podcast or they're even censorship, they apply censorship to the podcaster. if you want to have a free platform for freedom of speech, you need also to have a peer-to-peer economy around that. You really need to have a, a way for users, for podcast listeners, to compensate the podcaster directly without the involvement of the curators or even, banks, for that matter, because censorship can, can be applied via the money transfer. Breez is exa-is a great example, to, to this, this, the, the power of, the Lightning economy, because when you have a node, running in your pocket, basically, you can compensate the podcaster directly without any middleman, and taking a cut from your earnings or applying censorship To your content. By the way, it's not only censorship, it's also the quality, the quality of the podcast, because, competing over, advertisement, is also changing the quality of the content being, being, being created, in the podcasting world. So you need to have clickbait, and you have, you, you need to have sensational content in order to attract more users, we want clean content, high quality content, and if we want that, then there's the- Enters the value for value model that Adam and, and Dave are, are preaching, where, users can compensate, podcaster directly without the involvement of, of, third parties, and then you, you can be dependent On your community of listeners." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:01", "start": 2280.57, "text": "Yeah, so it adds a whole new level, and I think the way Adam Curry has been talking about it is he's, he's saying, you know, people can just start contributing in a different way to the shows that they like, and then it's, it's all one feed, so it's, it might still have the ads in it, but then his view is like, oh, you can more kind of, you can skip, you feel like less guilty about skipping the ads or whatever. I guess that's one way of doing it, and maybe other people are Which is ad-free. Yeah. and I guess it's, I even from my point of view, it's a little bit difficult because, well, not difficult, like, oh, poor, woe is me kind of thing, but more just like technically achieving it, because I actually do provide, you know, ad-free version for my Patreon listeners and Patreon does a feed for, like, which is the ad-free feed for them, and then I also give the MP3 version in a separate, private chat group for those supporters. But it's a bit more manual, it" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:58", "start": 2337.62, "text": "I have a sphinx, obviously I've got the sphinx thing going, just like, my, my buddies over at Tales from the Crypt who are big on that too. but, it's just an interesting little, you know, development that we're seeing now that we're try-trying to do this whole Lightning podcasting two point o thing. So I guess that's just a little bit of color from my side, yeah. Yeah, yeah," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "39:19", "start": 2358.58, "text": "yeah. Definitely, you know, we're just getting started, right? I'm sure that if And, the tools get, will be easier and, provide you with the support that you need in order to p- to, to publish in ad-free, version. the, the, the, the, the whole game r-right now is, is, is rigged towards advertisement, but, but just like you, Patreon, I think if we'll be able to succeed with, with this, value for value model, on top of Lightning, then, then, then the tools, we'll build the tools that you need in order to, to succeed with that. And you're, either way, you're becoming less dependent on your, advertisements funds, which is great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:16", "start": 2415.58, "text": "Yeah. And the other thing with, the whole podcasting two point oh thing is it does like a split, like a breakdown of where the sats are going. So for the listener, you, you pick a certain rate of how many sats per minute, whatever, a hundred sats a minute or wh-whatever, whatever rate you pick, and it then does a breakdown of, obviously some of that goes to the podcaster. Some of that might go to the app, some of that might go to the podcast index, like a-and then the way this might be built out in the future is people might, if they are contributing in some way, maybe if they're doing some kind of design or marketing work for the show to help promote the show, then maybe they get cut in on having, you know, some of the sats that get streamed to them. And there's a lot of power with this because you can basically set this up on an app and you can just download it on an Android phone or whatever. And it's not necessarily the same as having to go through a normal employer if you can set up an app and get paid, you know, Bitcoin for your services in this way, it's just enabling a whole new world of possibilities, right?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "41:21", "start": 2480.61, "text": "Exactly, it's a different economy because it's a transparent economy. What if you listen to the, to one of Adam's podcasts, No Agenda or- Podcasting two point oh, you, you see, for example, he ha- he, he, he adds his, the guy that does his chapters, who, you know, it's a challenge doing chapters for podcasts, Bree supports that, that by the way, but, he adds, that guy, and people can add the, the guys who are doing the podcast images or, the podcast sounds and, et cetera, et cetera. And, and, and, and really there's a direct compensation from the end user To the guys who worked on the podcast without going through any third party. That, that's, that's amazing. That's the, that, that's the power of Lightning. You can't do that with any other, in the fiat world. That's, that, that's not possible. Under the hood, the way that, that, the way that i-it's being implemented is, a-every entity that is being compensated," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "42:33", "start": 2552.62, "text": "has its own, Lightning node, and, and Breez, the client, is doing KiSend. KiSend is a way to send Sats without an invoice. B- Breez is doing key sends, to the node, depending and splits the, the, the payments, the min- minute, the, the sat per minute payment, based on the ratio the podcaster, has decided." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:59", "start": 2578.74, "text": "Yeah, that's pretty cool. I'm wondering as well, I know you're more a technical guy yourself, so you'll probably have some appreciation for this. I'm curious why it's kind of done as like a streaming on the go, as opposed to, you know, doing it like one payment at the end when they've stopped. Listening, you know, I'm curious if there's any insight you have into that or whether that might mean there's a lot more, you know, HTLCs flying around the network on, around the Lightning Network. Would that represent like a DOS? Vector there, or is that, you know, you think that's an acceptable, risk there?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "43:32", "start": 2611.86, "text": "So a couple of things on that, one, currently it's a vol-voluntary model, but, no one, says it's gonna stay like that. so imagine a world where the podcasters are sp-streaming, podcasts or music or movies or videos, if you continue to pay Sats so in that model, you have to stream sets, because as long as you stream sets, you receive the content. That's, that, that, that, that's, one thing. a second thing is the fact that, from a technical standpoint, from a client standpoint, it, it's much, i-it's very robust to stream sets, because imagine someone force-closes the app or uninstall the app, then, you, you aren't relying on On the, on the, on the, on, on, on settling the balance at the end of, the show. keep in mind also that we don't have, credit card as a collateral, right? You need to stream sets, because if you s-stop, if you decide to stop streaming sets, then we, we can't hold you accountable. The only way to hold you accountable, the user, is for you to, to, to stream sets. And I like it, and I'll tell you, and I, I, you know, that's my, that's my opinion. I like it as a stress test for Lightning, for the Lightning net-network. And I saw, I saw, just, published an article yesterday, and, and, and Lalo, Rolfie from, Lightning Labs here replied. I, I like to s-t-to test the, the, the robustness and, and see if Lightning can handle, this, A lot of HTLC streaming because, that's the power of Lightning, and I think we need to start testing the waters." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:31", "start": 2731.46, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a really good point you make there, that it is time to start testing these out and seeing how they grow and, you know, if there are, you know, issues identified, it's better that they're identified early, so we'll see where that goes. And in terms of another-- And I'll tell you one" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "45:49", "start": 2748.51, "text": "other thing, Stephan, broadcaster, love to see- Sat streaming. Meaning, I, I get it all the time, you know, people sending me screenshots of their stats, of the incoming sat, you know, that's a cool factor." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:04", "start": 2763.61, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "46:04", "start": 2763.81, "text": "And the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:04", "start": 2764.05, "text": "cool factor Yeah, no, that's certainly very cool seeing it stream in and ping off the notifications in my Sphinx app. And I guess it's kind of, the idea is to try to make it all interoperable, right? Because if I set up the Sphinx app, but then I can receive, you know, from other people on other apps, then it's kind of all becoming one growing, you know, ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "46:24", "start": 2784.21, "text": "That's what you said right now, that's the key for the success of Lightning. Lightning has to remain open and, and, and, and, and, and decentralized. you, you can't, you can, but that's not the power of Lightning. You can't build closed gardens, on top of Lightning. but I think that once we'll do that, then, Lightning is doomed to fail. We need to keep Lightning open, and with the podcasting two point o, we have an open standard, an open protocol for everyone to join. And Jack, Mueller, yesterday, he replied to one of our tweets saying he wants to add the podcasting two point o to, to his app, to Strike, which is amazing, and that's, that's the power of Light- I think, being an open, decentralized platform for transferring, peer-to-peer money." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:24", "start": 2843.81, "text": "Yes, that's really cool. That's really cool to see where that's going. And I, I guess just a couple other questions that people might have, just from a practicality and being pragmatic, let's say, someone wants to accept a payment, but it's being done online, and they might, you know, post that invoice, and then have to deal- deal with the expiry time or maybe if their wallet or their phone is off. How does Breez deal with in those kinds of scenarios? Like, I guess historically maybe people might have said something like, \"In a- In a private DM, they might have said, \"Oh, hey, I'll sell you this thing. Can you pay me to this address?\" But then maybe 'cause of time zones, that other guy wakes up and he only sees it a couple hours later, and then the guy who's receiving, his phone is offline. So in a Bitcoin transaction world, that would have been fine because it's just going to the address. How does that work in the Lightning context, and how does Breez kind of get around some of those kinds of issues?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "48:21", "start": 2901.24, "text": "So we have a couple of ways to mitigate that, yeah. So in order to receive a Lightning payment, both parties need to be online at the same time. It's kind of like having a phone call. they need to talk. together at the same time in order to do this lightning transaction, we have a couple ways to mitigate that. One is called the Connect to Pay, which works between Breez users only, just because others haven't, implemented, this protocol, but you can send a link, to, to, to pay someone, and when, this user is, is, ready to accept the payment, he clicks on the link, the sender receives an OTP. Notification that the payee has joined the session and they have like an online session of payment, and that leverage, Mobile notifications in order to coordinate, the, the, the payment session. another way to mitigate that is by using, LNURL. we support LNURL withdrawal, so you can put, your funds, the funds that you want to transfer to someone, in an LNURL withdrawal supporting sites like, Lightning Gift or, or, LNPay or others. There are, a few services that support, that. And And whenever the user is ready to accept the payment, he clicks on the link and, he, he, he, they can receive, the funds, which is, which, it's also a way to mitigate that. Another thing that we want to implement, but, we were so busy that we haven't got around to that is a protocol that we call a Lightning World, that we, published, a while ago, is We want to leverage, holding voice in order to coordinate this, payment. So a Lightning node can be a node that, holds the funds, it's an intermediate node that holds the funds on behalf, of the payer and settles, the, the, the, the payment with the payee once, the payee is online. so you can, we have a Medium publication, you can, search for the Lightning World article to see how it works, in a trustless manner. that's another, another features that we want to, implement in regards to offline, so called offline payment, because there's no such thing as an offline payment in, in Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:01", "start": 3061.08, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah. So it's kind of like an approach of trying to, yeah, find ways to either wake that phone or, to be able to make it- Wake up and take the payment, or s-some of these other approaches like a Lightning Road style, like the Hoddle invoice style," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "51:17", "start": 3077.37, "text": "yeah, we want to integrate something, like, the Road, which is similar to, in concept to the concept of Watchtower to tackle that. We want to be less dependent on, on, on, on the platforms, meaning Google, Apple. We want to s- we want to have something that is, More integrated into the lightning way of, working with things. LNURL in that regard provide a lot of, user experience benefits." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:47", "start": 3106.74, "text": "Yeah, it's really interesting because there's trade-offs all the way, right? Like some people have said LNURL might not be as secure because you're kind of reinventing this idea of going to the web interface, and then I've also heard some of the protocol developers say they weren't a big fan of the huddle invoice style because it locks up liquidity across the route, it locks up liquidity on the Network. So I mean, there's, I guess, with all of these, there's trade-offs, and we kind of have to just see what happens and what, the market decides in some sense, which, approach and which trade-off is, best for people." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "52:19", "start": 3138.96, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. I think there will be a multiple solutions for multiple use case, use cases. Breez users, are using the connect, heavily using the connect-to-pay feature, people who are using, for example, Thunder Games or other, other services are using LNURL, will implement The road and we'll see where it takes us. I think some, some merchants have no problem in holding some of their liquidity. Yeah, I see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:44", "start": 3164.41, "text": "Yeah, and, you mentioned earlier as well around some of these ideas of what you might look at in future, like having lightning pool, can you tell us a little bit about what that would look like?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "52:54", "start": 3174.5, "text": "Definitely. So Lightning Pool is a way to lease channels. it's a way to increase, your liquidity without paying, a lot, i-i-in advance, for, for, for the channel. We are looking for a way, and that's the key, another key for the success of Lightning, to increase the liquidity i-in the Lightning network. Lightning Labs has created this concept of a Lightning Pool, this, a tool, the service of a Lightning Pool where you can lease channels. We want, our- Users to enjoy power of Lightning Pool in order to increase their capacity, to increase the liquidity, and now they can pay, one thousand bucks in, in Breeze. I want to start building for all where they can pay ten K, in Breeze. and we will require services like, like, Lightning Pool in order to do that, and Lightning Pool, has added some features that allow, services like Breeze to- To coordinate channel opening between, between, a, a user and, and someone that offers, a channel input, we need more features in that, and we want, I, I want Lightning Labs to support zero confirmation channels and, and, zero channel reserve in order to integrate that, into Breez. We also want to make sure these, the, the, the, the entities that are offering these channels via pool are reliable, meaning have a high bus score, are able to reliably, route payments because a lot of, the stuff that Breez is doing is in LSPs to, to ensure that payments are getting routed." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:35", "start": 3275.04, "text": "Yeah, I see what you're saying. So it sounds to me like your concerns and things around Lightning Pool are essentially making sure that the users still get- A good experience. So I guess just to back up a sec, just for listeners who aren't new, Lightning Pool allows basically a kind-- think of it like a channel marketplace. So some people can offer up liquidity and say, \"Hey, I'm willing to open a channel to you for this amount of Sats or, this kind of return.\" And I guess from your side, Breez might be able to facilitate that for Breez users to say, \"Hey, if you need liquidity, we can help you source that, that incoming liquidity through Lightning Pool.\" But what you're saying Essentially, you wanna make sure that the reliability of those channels, and certain features around having zero reserve, meaning you don't have to have that, little amount of fee reserve in the channel that you can spend it all down to zero, and features around that essentially around ensuring the customer experience." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "55:31", "start": 3331.46, "text": "And you don't need to wait in order to spend the funds, yeah. It's about user experience and reliability." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:37", "start": 3336.88, "text": "Right. Yeah, that's a really interesting thing to see there. Also, I'm curious about the auto- Automatic cloud backups. So the scenario here might be, let's say they're a listener of this show and they are out there trying to teach people about Bitcoin and Lightning, and they might tell them, \"Hey, get on this app and you can start, you know, stacking sats or spending sats or whatever.\" And they might have lost their backup, right? So I think a lot of us who have been around for a while have friends who we helped onboard years ago, and then they lost that backup. They lost their twelve or twenty-four words, and then now they're, you know Approach with Breez and the auto cloud backups." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "56:16", "start": 3375.91, "text": "Yeah, as you said, we have auto cloud backups. so Breez is a lightning wallet, unlike, unlike a Bitcoin wallet. In order to, to backup Breez, you need to backup Breez after each payment, because lightning under the hood is, is a chain of, Bitcoin transactions. So whenever the channel state, is changing, you need to save that, in the backup if you don't Don't want channels to be closed. So it requires, unlike a regular Bitcoin on-chain wallet, it requires an ongoing backup process. The only way currently to implement a, a nice, an easy, simple way for users to backup, in that manner is to backup to the cloud or to, to a Breeze server. We decided not to backup to a Breeze server, to a Breeze server, because we don't want users to be dependent on Breeze, as the backup server. So we're offering a- Google Drive, iCloud ongoing backups, and we are adding Dropbox, we'll add that soon. and for users that are worried about, Google or Apple monitoring their content, because this, these, companies are a bit, obscure about the way that they save, they save the, the backup data, we also add an option to encrypt the, the backup data in Breez." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:43", "start": 3462.69, "text": "Basically, it automatically gets backed up to that user's Google Cloud or Apple iCloud or Google Drive or Apple iCloud, and they have an option to add a password if they're concerned around, you know, security of that or surveillance of that by, you know, the big, Big Google and Big Apple. and so then in the case, like hypothetically, let's say Bree's, you know, wasn't around anymore and that user wanted to recover, how would they recover their coins?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "58:11", "start": 3491.01, "text": "So currently you can recover via Breez, I imagine that if Breez, won't around, we will provide, a utility that allows you to download the, the, the backup data and easily restore it in an LND node. you can do that manually, by the way, in the developer to demonstrate Breez is a full Lightning node, we also expose a developer mode. in the app itself, you have a, a developer mode with all the LNC, LID, LND The kind of command line capabilities which you can, you totally control. One of the actions in the developer menu is to export the LND databases, so you can export these databases and, and, and restore it in an LND, node. that's essentially the, the, the backup data, that we store in the cloud. if we, if we will stop, working, then, then you can use that or- we will provide tools to download the, the, the, the, the cloud data, or you can compile Breez, you know, Breez is, fully open source, which is another hot topic in the Bitcoin domain. so we, we are completely open source, you can compile and, and use the Breez app without, us even knowing or caring. Very nice." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:30", "start": 3570.07, "text": "and Roy, also curious to get your thoughts around Lightning as a protocol, what kinds of things are you interested to see? Are you looking to see things like, Or anything else that you're interested to see come to Lightning at a protocol level?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "59:45", "start": 3585.0, "text": "I think worries me about, Lightning, you know, all the advances in the, that you've mentioned are, for me, currently are nice to have because I think we've managed to- To, to create a good user experience on top of Lightning or what we have right now, trampoline payments will defen- trampoline routing will definitely be an improvement because graph sync is gonna be a challenge as the Lightning network grows. I think Lightning in general needs to be more robust. We're still seeing and experiencing issues with our users, like spontaneous channels being closed and stuff like that that we need to resolve. That's what worries me. Currently in the day-to-day, in today, in the day-to-day experience, yeah, I looking forward for truffle debugging, looking forward for, some of the stuff that, LND is working out in terms of upgrading existing channels, so the ability to upgrade, one channel tap to another without closing and opening a new channel that would be great, for example, channels that, offer anchor, an anchor channel, an anchor output, anchor output is needed for To reduce the fee of channels being close, closed. These are the features that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:59", "start": 3659.82, "text": "Yeah. So I think those, it's kind of like around things like reliability or just kind of, ensuring the fee levels are appropriate using the anchor output style channel." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:01:10", "start": 3670.43, "text": "And the ability to, to upgrade from one channel type to another, that's gonna be key for the adoption of this improvement. Yeah, I see, I get ya." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:18", "start": 3678.67, "text": "Yeah. but it looks like, you know, it's just, it's really exciting. There's a lot of, growth in around the As well, wondering if you have any, I guess, stories that you've seen in terms of merchants or any, people, who are kind of adopting, Lightning, and just going straight into Lightning. Are you seeing that in your, any of your channels or any of your, communications?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:01:41", "start": 3701.71, "text": "Well, yeah, definitely. I'm getting, I told you I'm getting, pictures from all around the world of people, sending me pictures of, merchants using B" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:01:55", "start": 3715.32, "text": "Cheetos, Cheetos in one of the cities in Israel, and the, the merchant, the merchant used the Breez to receive the payment that was, and we don't even know, you know, Stephan, you know, that's the, that's the amazing thing, you know, we don't know the implications of the work that we're doing. I can tell you for the podcast, staff that we've released Last week, we've tripled our monthly transaction amount in, in, in, in, in a week, meaning in a week, we've done three times more transactions that we're doing in the previous month. Yeah, because" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:02:27", "start": 3747.3, "text": "everyone's streaming, that's true," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:02:28", "start": 3748.7, "text": "Yeah, and, you know, and, and podcasters are approaching Breez, you know, want, wanting to be added to the platform, want to be monetized, want to monetize their podcast and start receiving, bitcoins. People want to receive bitcoins, and, and users are willing to stream Dreams that to, to content creators. That's, I can tell you, you know, after a week, I can tell you that's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:02:51", "start": 3771.05, "text": "very exciting and, excited to see where it all goes. so Roy, I think it's probably a good spot to finish up here. So if you've got any, closing thoughts for the listeners and what they should do, and of course, where can they find you online?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:03:03", "start": 3783.52, "text": "Well, they can find me practically in us, you know, Breez is not just only me, you know, we're a team," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:03:15", "start": 3795.29, "text": "In Telegram, they can find us in Medium. I, I'm, we're doing a lot of, content, creating a lot of content, to help the Lightning ecosystem in Medium, so Telegram, Medium, Twitter, wherever. I'm here for you guys. Alright, thanks, guys. Bye-bye. See ya. Thank you, Stefan. Bye-bye." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:03:30", "start": 3810.84, "text": "Hope you found that one interesting. If you enjoyed the show, make sure you leave a review on Apple Podcasts or similar so new people can find me. You can find the show notes at stefanlivera dot com slash two six four for this episode. Thanks, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }