{ "episodeId": "SLP280", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "btcxzelko_pavel": { "name": "BTCxZelko & Pavel", "role": "guest", "tag": "BTCXZELKO" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 9.17, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stefan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. Do you want to use Bitcoin privately? If you want the best privacy possible in Bitcoin, my favorite choice is Samurai Wallet. And so today, BTC Zelko and Pavel, who are part of the Ronin Dojo team, join me to talk about their project, which helps you run your own Bitcoin node and in a way that works well with Samurai. So to be clear, they're not formally part of Samurai Wallet, but their project is like an open source project that works and collaborates with the Samurai Wallet team. And so we talk about Ronin Dojo, what it is, who it's for, and the recent upgrades on the user interface, as well as a range of other thoughts around hardware wallets, other services and features, and open source licensing. Now, this show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Swan Bitcoin holds a deep conviction that Bitcoin is the future of money. Swan's aim is to help you maximize your position in this dominant digital monetary network. As a Swan private client, you will have unlimited access to their team, strategic resources, and commitment to Bitcoin education. Bitcoin is an asymmetric investment of unparalleled proportions, rapidly becoming the preeminent wealth preservation asset for every individual and institution in the world. An opportunity like this to build And preserve legacy impacting wealth for your family or company will not likely be seen again in our lifetimes. The Swan Private team stands ready to earn the right to walk alongside you on every step of this journey into the future of money. Learn more at swanbitcoin dot com slash private or email CEO Corey Clipston directly at corey at swanbitcoin dot com. Lend at HodlHodl is a peer-to-peer Bitcoin-backed lending platform where you can lend or borrow crypto globally and anonymously. Lend at HodlHodl is a way to earn extra income. If you've got stablecoins, you can lend them out and earn an average of twenty-five percent APR. On the other hand, if you've got Bitcoin and you need some fiat liquidity, you no longer have to sell. Lend at HodlHodl allows you to collateralize your Bitcoin and borrow against it, and the best thing is, you will still hold one key in the two During the loan period, HodlHodl doesn't hold your funds. Lend at HodlHodl allows peer-to-peer lending and borrowing directly between users. With this platform, you set your own terms and put up offers depending on how long you want to borrow or lend and the interest rate you're looking to earn. So go to lend.hodlholdl.com, that's lend.h o d l h o d l dot com. So if you've got some Bitcoin and you're looking to help secure the network, well, have you thought about mining? Compu is an online marketplace making it easier for everyone to mine Bitcoin. This is the anti-cloud mining option. Compu help you buy your own ASIC and they go out and vet facilities around the world so you can send that ASIC to that facility and start mining. So for years, we've all heard mining was only profitable if you're investing tons of money, but Compu are making it easy for everyone to tap into those economies of scale and get reasonably priced hardware. and cheap industrial power rates instead of the residential rates that for many of us will simply not be competitive. So if you're unsure about how to get started, go check out Compost, they offer hardware and hosting bundles. I did an episode with the CEO, Wit Gibbs, that's episode two five nine, if you're interested, go visit them at compassmining dot io and get started mining Bitcoin today. Alright, Zelko and Pavel, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us, man." }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "03:35", "start": 215.33, "text": "Yeah, thanks for having us." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:37", "start": 216.79, "text": "So guys, I wanted to do an update on Ronin Dojo. I've seen there's a lot of things going on, it's very exciting. So, Zelko, you've been on the show, maybe Pavel, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're involved in, in the Bitcoin world?" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "03:51", "start": 231.24, "text": "Oh yeah, totally. I've been involved in Bitcoin since I think 2015 in Prague, Application developer, I've been trying to find a way to use my skills wherever I can, so then I found, some Rave Wallet, and I ended up, contributing to some of the projects, and then finally I, I was, contacted, by Zelko, and, we got together, and, now we work on Rave in Dojo. So my actual work right, right now is, working on Rave in UI, which is, Web UI dashboard. And, like application to manage your, dojo." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:34", "start": 274.01, "text": "Awesome. And so for listeners who aren't familiar, Zelko is one of the founders of the Ronin Dojo project, and so, you can also check out the first episode with, with Zelko, but basically he's one of the founders of the project, and he is, you know, one of the lead spokesmen for the project also. Zelko, do you wanna maybe just add anything else in terms of what, what's your focus about Bitcoin, just for people who are new, maybe" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:00", "start": 300.02, "text": "What's your focus in the Bitcoin world?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "05:02", "start": 301.89, "text": "Yeah, so, yeah, when I got into it, just like, most normal people, you know, you're, you're in for the investment, and then you start going down that rabbit hole, right? And you find awesome podcasts like this one and, tftc and all that fun stuff, and you start to learn. And I like, recap in my story really fast, I just happened to download, 'cause I had a, got an Android phone for the first time, and I downloaded all the Bitcoin apps I could find," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "05:30", "start": 330.12, "text": "My privacy journey started, like that, that was it, that got me hooked. And then, you know, running your own node and actually using your own node was big for me. I was like, \"Wow, you can actually, like, use this to back your wallet. This seems so much better.\" And ever since then, it's been, you know, I've been red pilled, if you will, by all the privacy guys, and it's been an awesome journey. Like, you just realize how strong the community is. I mean, Bitcoin community, if you're looking at Bitcoin community versus everybody else, like non coiners or no coiners or whatever we call them, you know, it's like we're super tight despite all the infighting, we're always super tight. But then, you know, inside, there's always small cliques, right? You got privacy people, you got, you know, holders for life, you got, you know, number go up for life, you got light-lightning, non-lightning, you got privacy people, and so everyone's super tight knit and, no matter what tribe you're in, it's Bitcoin's been there from the beginning since I, you know, started interacting in the, in the samurai wallet space. So yeah, my focus has really been how can we stay more private, how can we be sovereign individuals? 'Cause ultimately, like, that's what Bitcoin's about, right? So Bitcoin is supposed to be about decentralized, sovereign, censorship resistant, anti-state currency, and that's our focus. So how we wanna be able to bring from Ronin Dojo, we wanna bring you all the tools and everything you need to, to have to gain the most privacy and to be You know, to be your own master, right? I mean, Ronin's are this, the masterless samurai, so that's, that's the goal, and that's always gonna be the focus." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:07", "start": 427.17, "text": "Excellent. And so just a bit of context for listeners, if you are interested in Bitcoin privacy, my favorite privacy wallet is the Samurai wallet. And so if you use Samurai wallet on the default setup, like if you just go into Google Play and you download Samurai wallet, that will call out to Samurai wallet's servers. And so what we're talking about today is Ronin Dojo. So this Like an easy way to run your own one. So this is like, maybe you, you might start with Samurai Wallet just on the default setup, just to play around, and then when you're ready to take that next step up, that's when you might look at Ronin Dojo. So maybe Zelko, do you wanna just give us a bit of an overview, what does it look like if that user or that listener out there is like, okay, I'm ready to take that step, how do I make my own Ronin Dojo?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "07:53", "start": 472.6, "text": "So we have recommended hardware list," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "08:00", "start": 480.02, "text": "Push out some plug and play nodes. We actually have some really, really cool designs that we can talk about a little bit more coming up. But with RockPro64, that's my go-to, you know, single board computer. You can also run on a Ras-- a Raspberry Pi 4. We support pretty much every single board, almost every single board computer that's out there. You can pick that up, pick up the hardware, you flash our, our OS that's almost identical to, it's pretty much identical to the, the one that Manjaro actually offers. And then Repo, hit start, and then you have the UI up, and you install it, and it does everything for you. We made it as simple as possible. So, a-and then we have a, a wiki, that, you know, all the, the whole team has contributed to, but Bitcoin Q&A is, is a huge contributor to that. So if you like his work, you're gonna see a lot of that kind of trickle into our, our wiki page and everything you need to know, whether it's PGP verification, whether it's flashing an SD card, you know" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "09:00", "start": 540.0, "text": "Is I'm most proud about with our project. And then we have the community that's always there, we're always around trying to help people. We keep it really simple, it's not very hard, you can be up and running in ten minutes. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. I'm, I'm really excited about it. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:14", "start": 553.81, "text": "Yeah, that's cool. And so maybe one more entry level question just for listeners who might be new to this world, how should they think about Run and Dojo as compared to some of the other well known node projects out there, right? So some Maybe Start9, The Embassy product, there's probably not all, there's some other ones out there. Can you just spell out for them what's the difference with Ronin Dojo and why should they think about using Ronin Dojo?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "09:41", "start": 580.81, "text": "That's always a, a good one, and I, I love actually breaking this down 'cause we get quite a few people that come in and ask. The way I lay it out for people is really what's your goal? Like, what are you, what are you trying to do? If you know, like, if you're a Samurai user and you know To experiment with a bunch of new, different apps and stuff and find out what you potentially might use or not use, you know, I think that projects like MyNode or Umbrel are, are great for those. The one benefit that we really do have is that pure focus on the, I guess you could say, our mission or our vision. Like, we know exactly what we're doing, what we're focused on. so that allows us to kind of trim the fat and not bloat our, our software, you know? So we're really focused on optimizing Dojo, making everything as user Friendly, everything geared towards that because it is a beast. I mean, as you said, right, it replaces a server. So when you're thinking about it in that mindset, right, you wanna make that as user friendly as possible. Dojo's not just another app that you just put onto your node, it's a whole complex system. So there's no one more experienced in that department than the team that we have, and that's, that goes with Pavel, S2L1, you know, Q&A, Crazy K, like the whole team, like, well, like our whole team has Pretty much our entire time. So if you're looking and you're not sure, you know, we're not gonna be the ones offering you lightning, can you add it on there? Absolutely. If you wanna do that yourself, but with our small team and our focus, like, we're gonna stick to our on-chain stuff, but the, you know, the other, the other projects, yeah, you'll be able to offer that. I think, Start9 has some cool stuff with, so that, I do appreciate their self-sovereign mindset, I'm all for it, you know Get the most up to date release, you know, we work directly with the Dojo team. Pavel's been working a lot with the Dojo team as of late, and there's no one that's gonna get you what you need better than, than we are if you're a Samurai user." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:42", "start": 701.63, "text": "Yeah. And so I think for listeners out there, I think it's also useful to think, when you use a node project, you've also got to think about not just what's easiest to first set up, but also maintenance and ongoing, right? And so if you are a Samurai user and you really care Bitcoin, then I think, you know, you're going to be looking at Samurai Wallet, and then you're also gonna be thinking, well, how do I upgrade that node? How do I update it over time? And how do I maintain it? And then if I run into problems, can I get support on that? And so it's not to, you know, I'm a, I'm, you know, I'm a fan of all the different Bitcoin node projects, and it's good that there's competition, and it's good that there's different projects of trying different things. But Same issue in the chat, in the z- in, in that chat, and you'll be able to, be a bit more easily able to quickly deal with that issue because it's, it's actually an ongoing maintenance thing also. So that's one point I would just add there. And so Pavel, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about what you've been doing with Ronin Dojo and, you know, what your involvement has been recently?" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "12:48", "start": 767.68, "text": "Right. So our goal is basically like a long-term goal is making a, like a web UI. Long-term goal is, that you Box, like a Ronin UI, a Ronin dojo box, you plug it in, you set up a password, and then you access website, and you're all set up. Everything you need to do, you will do using the web UI, using the website. So we are slowly moving towards that. But yeah, basically right now the main function of the Ronin UI is like serve, like main platform or main tool to interact with your device. And your Dojo and like ease as much as possible the usage and the maintenance of your node and your Dojo. so we have integrated a lot of things into it that should help the users like support and basic maintenance like restarting, the Dojo, checking the logs. We e-even have some like small, you know, tools like pushing the like, finished transactions to the Bitcoin network. And then we have some more specialized dojo tools like, for example, risk scanning box, viewing transactions, and so on. In the future, we also plan to add more features from Samurai Stack. So, for example, some tools like Altman, Verapool, and so on are very interesting for us, and if we can integrate them into the Ronin UI, it would be very beneficial for a user to have, everything in one place." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:29", "start": 869.22, "text": "Great, yeah. So Maybe just a bit of context as well. So when Ronin Dojo was still forming and I was working with Zelko in the chat, and it was all command line, right? The whole thing was fully command line, and it was like a guy, it was like a command line guide. So now Ronin has evolved, right? The, the project has evolved. And so for listeners, you don't have to sit there doing command line all day. Now you, you have like a nice, an easier interface, to use. And so this gives you like a web interface and like Dojo, think of it like your samurai personal server, if you will. And so I guess for people who are just getting into samurai wallet and you're just getting started, I guess the main two things to think about, right? You've got that dojo aspect of it, which is running the underlying server that your own samurai wallet on your Android phone will call out to your own personal server, and then the other part is having Whirlpool, right, which is the ability to run CoinJoin. And so historically, or I mean, even now, there's still Whirlpool CLI, Multiple GUI, which is like a graphical user interface that you would have on your PC computer to sort of control or at least have a dashboard on what's going on with your coin joins. So now Ronin Dojo is gonna help you as the listener, you know, the user, configure and see what's going on with those different pieces. so Zelko, do you wanna just chat a little bit about that aspect of it?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "15:51", "start": 951.22, "text": "Yeah. So, I mean, the, the big thing, right, is that one-stop shop. I mean, for the longest time, I This is, nearly day one, so that was really awesome and, really cool motivation for us in the beginning, and we've always wanted to make it easier, you know? So, you know, you've always had like the Dojo maintenance tool page that you'd have to go to and view and troubleshoot. We wanna bring that to one, one place. You already have our UI, why, why have another one? And, you know, that's, that's Pavel's expertise. So we've been working on integrating that, and actually he's made a lot of Here, 'cause that's, it's all written in JavaScript, which is his field of expertise. So we're doing that, and then, again, the GUI is, is really, desktop app is really just a wrapper, really pretty wrapper that you can put anywhere. So we wanna try to put that back into, again, another tab for us or anybody that's been on like kycp, knowyourcoinprivacy dot org, which is another, Samour wallet feature that you can go and see the deterministic links, and it's all really pretty for you, so you can see Your transactions are and how easy it is to trace or how hard it is to trace. So we, we can, we've already been testing that, you know, integrating that and having a pretty UI on our side, so that users can do that without having to go to a bunch of different sites, without having to worry about any other sort of privacy leaks that you might have like an off chance of worrying about it, that's gonna be all gone. We wanna bring everything to you in an easy way, and, and that's what we're doing with the UI. So we're moving" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "17:30", "start": 1049.98, "text": "Focus was that we didn't, let me step back. It reminded me of, you know, we talked about the other projects in competition, right? Massive, 'cause when we first started all command line, I think at the time our intent was, cheap, free alt, well, cheap, a free alternative, right, software-wise, to Nodal, because, you know, that was the only way people could easily run a Dojo. We, we wanted to be an alternative, and, you know, there was Raspiblitz, there was Raspib" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "18:00", "start": 1080.0, "text": "Competition, now we see Umbrel, we see Startnine, and so it really drove us to that direction, and, you know, so that's what we want, but we didn't want just a, a dashboard, we didn't just want like, you know, a place where you can click and install and maybe see if it's running. We want you to be able to interact, we want you to be able to control, you know, your Dojo and your, all your applications from that spot. So that's, that's been our focus and our direction. We want it to be Obviously that's faster, easier, and then it's also available over Tor, with your own private link, and you just save that in your Tor browser on mobile or on your laptop, you just save that, bookmark it, and then you go to it and access it anywhere you're at, no matter what, you have access to your, to your Ronin Dojo right there. So, you know, that's, that's what we want, and that's been our, our goal. So I think that's where we're moving, and I think we're gonna continue to build and make this super" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:00", "start": 1139.98, "text": "In the past, where if you wanted to do this, you had to be a lot more advanced as a user to be able to remote back in to your server from outside, you might need a terminal and then you might need to be comfortable and savvy with command line, where now it's being made easy with all in one in a tour browser interface, and so you can sort of see, and the idea is you might be able to then more easily check on your what mixes you have going on or more easily see, okay, is my node synced correctly up to the chain tip that is the latest block? Or As an example, if I say scanning an old wallet and putting that onto this dojo, I might need to check, has it-- do I need to re-scan my xPub, which is like to re-scan and make sure it's, it has seen everything that I've got in this wallet, as just as an example. So I think this is a great tool for people who are out there and they wanna take that next step into privacy and they want the best possible privacy on Bitcoin, I think this is a great tool because in this way, you're getting kind of the best coinjoin Join tools, but also backed by your own Bitcoin node, which is an important thing that we, we try to teach people how to learn how to do that. So let's talk a little bit about some of those other functions that we might need to learn about. Like, so let's say somebody's new, they haven't done this before, as an example, they might need to be able to check the logs or learn to stop and restart things. So can you just tell us a little bit about some of those functions and how they might, if they're just getting started, why they might need to do" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "20:30", "start": 1230.02, "text": "Mallet, Pavel talked about, or talk about from the UI perspective, but the, the logs and understanding the logs, what different things mean, which is again a great thing about our, our wiki, we have everything laid out, what you should be worried about or not worried about. You wanna be able to access that in the event that, you know, maybe your wallet's saying something or you're missing, the biggest things people say they're missing funds, they're like, \"I lost my Bitcoin.\" That's always like everyone's heart drops to their stomach and they go into panic mode." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:00", "start": 1259.98, "text": "And anyone that has been there, once you get through your first time, you're like, okay, I, I understand now. But that's where the logs come into play, that's where using, you know, the xPub rescan, some of our other features like either Electrs, right, Electrum server, or the Samurai indexer, having those tools allows your rescan to come in and be faster and import your wallet. That's really what it's doing. If people aren't really sure what your indexer is doing or what xPub rescan does, it's rescanning that transaction that your wallet has, so the whole history, and then it's what Dojo does is it sets it aside and says, okay, we're tracking all of these now, we're, we're aware, and we're gonna make sure that every single transaction is fed. And then additionally, Samurai has an, an, another feature that says we're gonna flag if it tries to reuse, it won't let you, right? It'll say, \"You're trying to reuse, an address for, say, Whirlpool or, Stonewall or any of their" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "22:00", "start": 1320.06, "text": "What that generally will tell us, right, if you look at the logs, it'll say, \"Oh, you know, I'm not up, I'm not up to date for, you know, up to the current block.\" Alright, no problem, generally just a restart will fix you. But if you don't have access to logs, if you don't, if you're not aware of how the architecture works for, for your dojo, you might not know that. And that's, we don't expect every user to know, we don't expect every user to have that technical knowledge to" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "22:30", "start": 1350.06, "text": "Those things that you'll need and learn, right, along your journey so that you can do it again in the future without us. we want people to be as sovereign from whether it used to be like learning the command line, which will always be an offer, to like how to actually fix this stuff yourself eventually, and that way you don't need me, you, you can do all this stuff with or without any of us, and that, that's really the goal, and the UI has made that even easier, you know? So, Pavel, if you wanna talk about some of the" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "23:00", "start": 1380.24, "text": "Yeah, I think that, one of the main benefits, of the UI is that, a-aside from the troubleshooting and all of that, is that, there are some, there are some cases, that, your Bitcoin Core might stop working or your, I don't know, Dojo Tracker might stop working, anything, anything can happen to our network, whatever. Without, access to your device, via SSH or, or, like direct access, via keyboard and, screen, you, you would be like totally, screwed, before. But if your, if your device is still running and, still accessible, you can just, whenever you are and have mobile connection, to the internet, you can access your node, your- Run in Dojo over the Tor network, check the logs, see if anything's, wrong up there, and restart the whole Dojo and possibly restarting mostly fixes a lot of issues. So, yeah, th-this, this is the thing that, that, can fix a lot of issues when you're not at home and you notice that your node isn't, behaving properly. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:22", "start": 1461.93, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you might be out and about or you might be traveling for work or for whatever. Whatever reason, and you might need to be able to remotely get back in and just check that everything is running, and this is the feature for that. Now, I think it might also be handy just to talk about some of the other features that maybe a user might be thinking or the listeners might be thinking, okay, well, if I've got my cold card or my hardware wallet and I wanna run it with Specter or Sparrow, can I do that with my Ronin Dojo?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "24:50", "start": 1490.18, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So, that was one of the, Specter was one of the ones I was really excited about, just as an alternative to Electrum. I mean, the interface is great, right? I'm really excited to see the progress that they've made. So, when, when I saw that, I wanted to start integrating it, and that's exactly what we did. So, yep, you have access to Specter. You can still use Electrum if you wanna use that, if that's your preference. Aspera, I believe, runs, utilizes a Hardware wallets, you know, we still offer those things. I think m-most of the, most of the team, you know, we're, we're super, super red pilled samurai guys, so most of us are what we like to call samurai maxies, but we understand that that's not everyone's threat model, you know, and that's ultimately what it comes down to. It's a threat model that some people want, want to pursue and advocate, and I, you know, we'll, we'll support that because we do understand that that's part of our user base. So Time, so, and any of those new releases that come out, we get those tested and integrate that as soon as we get them. So, yeah, whatever people wanna use for their hardware wallets, minus one particular desktop wallet that isn't supported by us, yeah, they're, they're all supported. I think, everyone who knows what I'm talking about knows what I'm talking about, but" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:10", "start": 1569.65, "text": "Yeah, sure. yeah, and also, so actually, just for listeners who aren't clear about, like, oh, samurai Maxi, what, what's that mean? Like, can you just tell us a little bit about, the difference in the philosophy there, right? So because, you know, hardware wallets are a popular thing in the Bitcoin community, but what's, what's kind of the samurai community perspective on that? Just, just to give them a flavor of that perspective." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "26:34", "start": 1594.09, "text": "I'll give a little bit and then I'll So a lot of the, the, I guess I'll say core community contributors will say that we've been using Samurai for so long and we understand the, the benefits that we get from maintaining, right, maintaining our coins in Whirlpool and continuously gaining, right, forward-looking anonymity by just mixing, right, free mixing, like it doesn't really get better than that. All you gotta do is leave them there. Additionally, you know, a lot of us are using, whether it's, Calyx OS or Graphene Copperhead, whatever, we're all using degoogle phones at this point. You know, we, our threat models, we see as a lot lower on a, on a mobile device versus hardware wallet, and that, that's our choice. You know, I guess if we get more into it, you know, we'll, we'll probably upset a lot of people that are hardware wallet users that I don't particularly think would be advantageous. But, you know, it, again, it's a threat model choice that we've never seen, nor do we really see a huge hole for, Especially with the backup models that Samurai has with the fully encrypted payloads and everything else, it-- the threat model's low, in, in my personal opinion. I'm sure NBK and some other people might disagree, but that's, you know, that's okay. That's what, that's what makes us stronger, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:53", "start": 1672.95, "text": "Right, and it might be seen more like a, this is the privacy maximalist choice, right, as well, because the, the thinking here might also be that you want every transaction, right, as, you know, as T Dev might say, every spend should be a coin join, make every spend a coin join, and so the idea is that if you're trying to keep everything within the coin joining wallet, then you-- it sort of necessitates keeping everything either in the samurai wallet or potentially having like an offline phone that you use as like a samurai hardware wallet, if you kind, kind A hardware wallet, if you will. so I guess it's also about that privacy maximalism choice, which, again, it's a trade-off people have to make for themselves. and Pavel, if you wanna add anything there as well that we, that you didn't cover there?" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "28:34", "start": 1713.86, "text": "Oh, well, there's, certainly some good use cases for a hardware wallet, but I don't think it's so strong as, anyone, who promotes hardware wallets really tries to put it. I have a hardware wallet, I know guys, from Satoshi- behind the dresser. I'm not against or like super pro hardware wallet, like Zelko said, it's about anyone's threat model really. But yeah, phone, which is the good goth and potentially in totally offline phone can serve this role as well, thanks to some right tools, it can even benefit user privacy." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "29:14", "start": 1753.67, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. in, in the follow up to that too, right? one of the biggest questions we get is, okay, I mixed, now I wanna send it to my hardware wallet Right? And we're like, okay, yeah, no problem here. The different steps that you can do, here's some things that you can make it not a, no longer a hot wallet, make it a warm or cold-ish wallet, whatever you wanna call it, just take your keys offline. Here's a bunch of things you can do. But, you know, the other side of it, right? Is that if you take those coins and you put 'em in, you, you take 'em out of Whirlpool and you put 'em into your hardware wallet, now you either need to Later on, you're gonna wanna make sure that they're labeled, you wanna make sure that you're on top of it, and especially for the people that are like, \"I'm not gonna spend Bitcoin for twenty years, \" and if that's their choice, that's cool, but that's twenty years or ten years or whatever right in the future that you still need to be remembered how to do this stuff. So the, you know, the, the plus side of, you know, whether it's keeping them in Samurai, keeping them in that offline, never touch the internet, which you can sid" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "30:23", "start": 1822.69, "text": "send it back into Whirlpool to, to redo it, or I don't need to already have the tools, you know, I already have my post mix spending tools, I don't need to worry about getting them back into Samurai Wallet to then utilize a stone wall or, you know, a peer to peer coin join, I don't have to worry about those things 'cause they're already there. And I think that's our biggest part, is that, you know, it's, you've, you've taken the steps, you did all the right things, right? You're a user and you" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "30:53", "start": 1852.59, "text": "You're gonna send, spend just that UTXO, you're potentially, right, depending on how you consolidate, you're potentially like taking away your privacy. So, and you just paid for it, you know, whether you got a bunch of free mixes or not, you paid something for it. So, you know, you need the tools, that's the biggest thing. And so you want those post-mix spending tools, and that's what makes Samourai great, is that, yes, they have a, the best implementation on actual coinjoin, the peer-to-peer, you know, they" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "31:23", "start": 1882.63, "text": "Or do you wanna ensure that your privacy stays strong and keep messing with deterministic links and the chain analysis grows? You wanna make sure that it's still good, right? So that's what those post-mix spending tools are for. If you take those away, you know, you're, you're just kinda handcuffing yourself. So I think that's the biggest, like, you know, samurai maxie, mindset, in, in my opinion." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:43", "start": 1903.37, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. 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Now, my favorite Bitcoin hardware wallet is the Coldcard, made by coinkite dot com. Now, this, in my view, is the best hardware wallet in the market. It's got awesome features, you can use it totally air gapped, it stays ahead of the competition in terms Features that they offer, it is a very versatile device as you can use this in a single signature setup or as part of a multi-signature setup, even with Unchained as an example. Now, you can use this wallet with Specter Desktop, Sparrow, Electrum, or BlueWallet and do air-gapped transactions. So don't be intimidated, there's lots of cool features and you can learn how to use it, there's lots of video content out there. Go and order yours, get yours at coinkite dot com, use the code LIVERA for discount. Back to the show And I think it's one of those things where it's useful to think about it holistically, right? So now, I guess the upfront kind of disclaimer I'd give for most people is, look, if you're storing stuff for the long term, you probably-- I think hardware wallets are good for security, and then for people storing a lot of money, that's where multi-sig comes in. But if your con-- if your concern is max-- is mostly about privacy, and here's another thing, you-- as an example, you are trying to acquire coins non-KYC, right? Meaning you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:43", "start": 2083.27, "text": "To a Bitcoin exchange or a broker or a company, and you've done this all non-KYC, whether that is mining coins or earning them or buying them with cash, that kind of thing, then I think maybe you could argue that less people know you have Bitcoin to begin with, and so it's kind of that idea of you are trying to stay private and a little bit more under the radar, and this is one way you could do that. Now, that's it? I mean, there might be some people out there who might think of it like, okay, they stuck most of their stuff into like non-KYC stuff, and that's what they're using Samurai Wallet and Ronin Dojo and so on. But I'm just trying to give listeners a flavor of some of the different ways of thinking out there in the community so they, so they can choose for themselves, right? You, I'm giving you the knowledge and you make your own decision, what kind of philosophy am I mostly subscribing to and which one do I wanna try and pursue, whether that's, you know, Samurai Maxi fully or just, you know, using part of it where you opportunistically need the tools that Samurai" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "35:44", "start": 2143.51, "text": "Yeah. No, I, I mean, it was the, the mantra for a very long time in Bitcoin, right? Do your own research. we can provide all the insights and you can provide all the interviews and all these great, like, tools, right, for everybody, but ultimately, you gotta, you have to still do your own research. Like, that's, that's your Bitcoin, that's your money, like, you need to do the research. hopefully, and that's what I like about the podcast, is it really starts to get people to think and," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "36:13", "start": 2173.09, "text": "Develop or practice and test, whether with multisig or hardware wallets, you know, use testnet. Not enough people use testnet, use testnet, practice, see if that's what you wanna do, if that's something that you enjoy the experience or you think is, something that is in your threat model, then absolutely go for it. I, I get normies all the time that talk to me about it, like, you know, family friends that are older, and that's something that we talk about, right? Is, you know, what's gonna work best for you and what That's really what it comes down to, is what's best for you. 'Cause what's best for me isn't gonna necessarily be what's best for someone that's, you know, retired and looking to just store some value for their kids. It's not, it's not always gonna be the same. So I'm all for it, let people do their own research and definitely use testnet, practice, practice with things. Like, don't, don't just like, you know, try to lock yourself up in multisig without doing any sort of practice. That's what testnet is meant for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:12", "start": 2232.23, "text": "Yeah. Cool. So let's talk through for a user, let's-- Okay, let me just tell a little bit of a user story, if you will. So let's say this user is interested in privacy, right? So let's say they have, you know, they buy-- either they buy, the, the products to make a, you know, they put, they put it together, they flash on Ronin and they set up their own dojo, Ronin Dojo, and then they've got Samurai Wallet on their phone and they pair that with their Ronin Do Right? And, maybe they wanna start interacting more privately, maybe they run their coins through a coin join using Whirlpool, and then now, they might wanna think about, \"Well, how private am I?\" So can you tell us a little bit about Whirlpool and Whirlpool Stat tool and, what you're kind of achieving? What, what's that achieving for them? And, why would they use it?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "38:01", "start": 2281.22, "text": "All right. So you wanna find out, right, how strong your mixes are, right? Or in Samurai, there's forward and backward looking How far, how many people is your original transaction, that what we call TX0, how many other people could that be, right? How many other people are you technically in that crowd with? And then forward looking is how many people of the same, that equal output, how many of those could you possibly be, right? So every single time that not just you get selected for a remix, but anybody in your mix that you were in, get selected for a remix, and then they get selected for a remix. So it's this exponentially growing, pool of crowd of people that you're hiding in Wolpaw Stat does is it, is a, an application that Laurent, he developed, him and, TDev, right? They, they developed this awesome tool to be able to calculate, you know, what, like how, how many, what your an- your real an-anonymity set is, how many people could you possibly be. So that's where Wolpaw Stat comes in. I know Pavel has sworn, sworn on his life that one day he'll rewrite it, or sorry, is that Boltzmann you're" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "39:08", "start": 2348.29, "text": "gonna" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "39:10", "start": 2350.03, "text": "rewrite? No, it was Written in JavaScript, but I don't believe it. But yeah, both of those are written in Python. But yeah, Whirlpool stat is how you're going to find out, man, I guess what your Whirlpool statistics are, right? So we wanted to offer that as a, as a tool for people if they wanna go ahead and do that. The only thing I'll, I'll say is because there are so many mixes now, you know, last year it wasn't so big, that big of a deal, right? 'Cause Whirlpool was still growing and we hadn't hit" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "39:42", "start": 2382.25, "text": "And mixes all the time. So it does take a little bit of time, but it's always, I think it's a cool thing to look up and just be like, \"Man, I like, I got some serious privacy and I didn't really pay that much for it.\" That, that's what it's gonna, it'll pull up and show you. So I haven't looked at my, I haven't looked at mine recently, and I'm, I'm kinda interested because I've been, I've been keeping, I got some coins from, from way back that have been sitting at Whirl" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:12", "start": 2412.35, "text": "Of the context as well for listeners who might not be familiar with how the Samurai Wallet whirlpool works is, so the idea is you will run some of your coins through that coin joiner, that'll go through TX zero and then be selected for a mix and go through a mix. And the philosophy here is that you wanna keep things remixing, and that by continually remixing, you're just gaining more privacy, and the overall pool, the anonymity set of that overall pool is continually growing over time. So I guess that's some of the background for listeners. To, you know, maybe if you're not familiar with that. were there any other features you guys wanted to touch on from Ronin Dojo, maybe, the Block Explorer, the MemPool space stuff?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "40:53", "start": 2452.74, "text": "Yeah, so MemPool space, I am, one of my projects coming up is gonna be optimizing the integration for the latest one that the MemPool space guys put in. I d- I really like their new MemPool space that they offered for, nodes to connect to, and that's my goal, I wanted to be optimized So like low drag, if you will. So that, that's one of my big projects. They got some really cool stuff on there, especially with some of the different call features, really on the backend stuff, but they got some really nice stuff in there. So, you know, hats off to them for that. And, I mean, we still have the Block Explorer, I think, it's three point o, I think" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "41:33", "start": 2493.43, "text": "three point o just came out. Yeah, it's, it's three point o right now. Yeah, three point o just came out and that's really nice. We just released this new web UI, but we have a new one coming out. We have the UI developed, we just gotta plug in the backend stuff. Whenever I put Pavel back to work, but the, the new web UI that we have, right, is two point o. So web UI two point o is gonna be, I guess the best way to think about it, in my, my opinion, is kinda like taking, if you took Umbrel and then you made it super cipherpunk and you took out the app store aspect. So like it's this, this like, super beautiful, That you're gonna be able to use, and it's got that feel that you just kinda look at it, and you're like, \"Oh my god, this is awesome.\" You know, some of the other things we're gonna add in there is, you know, a whirlpool page that's similar to what you see in your mobile wallet, if for people that have done mobile mixing, on Samurai Wallet, you'll see, \"Oh, this was a recent mix that I had,\" or it'll tell you, right, how many, you know, when was the last mix that you got, right so, you know, that, and obviously, the new UI is gonna have an actual graphic interface for Boltzmann that's gonna look like KYCp. If you haven't been on KYCp, I know I talked about earlier, definitely go to it. It's very fun, very cool. We're gonna have almost the same thing, just built into your own web UI that's backed by your own stuff. So, you know, that, and along with some other cool features that I'm gonna keep hidden, but we're really excited for that integration. It's gonna be really," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "43:12", "start": 2592.25, "text": "Added in there, but I would say that, that that's probably my favorite feature coming up." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:16", "start": 2595.91, "text": "Yeah, that's cool. So listeners keep an eye out for that. and also we've got to get onto this whole open source licensing topic as well, because I know this is something, Zelko, you have, strong feelings on it, and so can you tell us a little bit about your difference of opinion, I guess, with some of the other projects out there and why you have chosen more of the, I guess it's the FOS, philosophy" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "43:42", "start": 2622.21, "text": "I'll do ask that question. Okay, so I kind of touched on this, with Matt O'Dell, but the-- So there's FOSS, right? That I think, most Bitcoin users are familiar with. When, when you hear open source, right? You think FOSS, or that's what is generally referred to, right? People normally think open source should be FOSS. If you don't know what FOSS is, that's what we're supposed to be referring to, like Bitcoin, the software, right? Is FOSS, right? Free open source software. Not necessarily monetarily free, it means freedom, right? Yeah, it, it's free, free as in" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "44:16", "start": 2656.01, "text": "freedom, not free beer." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "44:20", "start": 2659.76, "text": "Yes. So you can have a false project that does have monetary intake and that, that doesn't change anything. It's the freedom aspect. So the biggest, the biggest difference, right? And for people to really think about it, I think most people are familiar with the idea of copyright. So I, so I have, my own Ronin dojo, Zelko dojo. If I copyright it, no one else can- Touch it, you can't fork it, you can't try to redistribute it. You can, you can use it for your own personal stuff, but you can't touch it, right? It's mine, I copyright it, I own the license, no one else can use it. That's what copyright is, right? So it's moving to the right. Copy left is really what, freedom of open so- like FOSS is about, right? So copy left just means that, yes, you can do whatever you want with my software, you can copy it, like right now for Ron" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "45:12", "start": 2712.19, "text": "I could absolutely could do that right now, fork it, call it something else, just try to get more users than me, and that's a hundred percent good to go. I have no issues with that. The, the only difference is you just have to keep our license, so we use AGPL as like some context that I'm sure users I probably don't need to know about, it's just a form of, freedom, free open source software, licensing. But so they just have to maintain that license if they're gonna use my software, they can't try to take mine and then copyright it and close source it. I think the disagreement that I get in with a lot of these other projects, you know, like, I think Start9 has their own, their own license that they made, I think same with Umbrel, Mineo has their own one, is that they limiting people's ability to fork the code Is it generally what I've seen, you know, people's argument from it, is that, well, we put all this work in, right? And now someone's just gonna come and copy what we did and then have a, a farther starting point than we did, right? We started, you know, from the, from nothing, and now they're just gonna, you know, cut us off from, from our needs. To me, that's, that's irrelevant. It's irrelevant for, for me for a couple reasons, right? The software, especially when you're talking about money or you One, right? You want to be the best. It should be open, free, open source software, and as many people should be able to get it, fork it, use it, 'cause that's how the industry grows, and that's how the industry gets better, and you're encouraging people, right, to have more competition, 'cause more competition drives better product. That's just the reality of the world, right? And like we talked about that with MyNode, right? MyNode having the first dashboard that was really pretty, now we're seeing everyone else start to follow trend. It's I want other people to push us to step our game up, because that's how we get better. Where we, like, this whole big UI push, a lot of that was like, \"We have to catch up, we have to do all these things, \"because we don't wanna get left behind, right? \" So that-- but I'm not worried about other, other projects taking, you know, taking something from me, because I'm confident enough in my product, right? I'm-- if it's competition, okay, game on, I love competition. Maybe it's just me, I A really strong user base that's really loyal, that loves my product, they're not gonna just dump me to go to this other thing that someone else clearly, you know, forked. They're not gonna do that. They're gonna use, you know, what they're used to using, they're used-- they, they have a good, strong, loyal base. If you don't have a strong loyal base, then maybe you are afraid. I don't know. I see, I see this quote-unquote open source, where it's limitations on the freedom of the open source ness," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "47:58", "start": 2878.16, "text": "Personally, I mean, like five, not five, like six or seven years ago, right? Or even five years ago, if you had a, a not a, like a free open source software license, like a true false license, you would have-- it would have been a joke. No one would take you seriously, right? That's, that was never the name of the game in Bitcoin. It's-- that was like a, a foundational ethos of the cypherpunk movement was free open source software. If we can't have that, and we've lost sight of that because we Of open source, quote unquote, to open source viewable, I can view the source versus what I can do with it, that freedom aspect. You know, we're playing semantics with the word of open source. An open source was supposed to be parallel, right? It should equal to, right? Free open source software, freedom. And that's what I worry about when I see a lot of these things and people still saying it's open source, 'cause you have limitations on what people can do or how they can contribute and all this other stuff, and it's, that's, that's not You know, people are supposed to help, people are supposed to be able to do this stuff or take this stuff and make it better. Someone took Reim and Dojo, made it better, and had their own fork and started their own group and own company and whatever, cool, man, let, let's do it. Like, maybe we can work together, maybe I can learn something from you, and that's what it's supposed to be. Yeah. And, I mean, what else did I miss there, Pavel?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:17", "start": 2956.52, "text": "Yeah, no, I think you, I think you covered a lot of things" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:28", "start": 2968.18, "text": "Stephan can sell a, there is no intellectual property, the only property is private, like physical private property, that's what you can have a property right in. So, but I guess even though I agree with you, but just to kind of reflect the view that I've heard is that, well, you know, some of these other people, they feel like they need, not they feel like, they believe that they need this as a business model, right? So from their point of view, they say, well, if I were to have it actually fully false, then they may not be able to Software, and then I guess the other interesting argument is more just that, well, yeah. So, so I guess firstly, that's probably the main argument, right? And then I think there's also one other point that's interesting to touch on, which is that it might have an impact in this, the case of, let's say, there was some difference of opinion on how to go with the soft fork, then somebody might not be able to downstream fork that code and change it to help users choose their own. Now, in this case, I think the Umbrel guys were trying to say Go with, but I guess there's still an argument to be had there on really is what, how free is it, as opposed to being source viewable. so anything you guys wanted to add there on that?" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "50:38", "start": 3038.05, "text": "I just wanna, first I wanna reflect on what was said. I as a software developer, I've seen plenty and plenty of software that was forked and, upgraded rightfully because original maintainers weren't able to maintain and upgrade the The original like package or library or project or whatever, thanks to it being, free open source software, not just source viewable, but it had open license, free license, so anyone could fork and publish changes. Thanks to this, other users could publish their own graded versions. Actually, a lot of projects got saved because of this, because otherwise, they would be unmaintained and if they wouldn't have the free license License, someone would have to, you know, write a fresh, totally new library. So thanks, this license, people are just able to take what, what exists and build upon it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:39", "start": 3099.27, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a good point because it's kind of, it allows people to then take something and remix it, and that's really the beauty of the open source ethos. And so I can sort of, you know, personally, I side more with that side of the argument, but I guess, yeah, I think it's one of those things where in the Bitcoin industry, you're obviously, you're Umbral, I'm still a fan of these other projects. I just, this is probably one point where I disagree with them on it, but, you know, so be it, right? I think that's kind of the open source aspect of it, but I think it's also interesting to talk a little bit about, and probably coming to that question of business models and support model. So, do you guys wanna touch on that for Ronin Dojo?" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "52:16", "start": 3135.92, "text": "Well, I see where Mylon, Umbral, and Darknine are, are coming from. They wanna protect their product, they don't want We've run into Joe, we all have, and they got some investments and so on, so they don't want someone to just come fork off their product, make money off their work. But at the same time, I view their behavior as unethical or at least dishonest because they are pretending to be open source software, at least Umbrel is, because they don't have open source license yet, they do accept pull requests on GitHub openly, so they are actually- Making, other people work for them for free while not being able to fork their software. So Umbrel accepting these pool requests is, actually, breaking their own license, w-which is like funny. I don't know. So I think, yeah, dishonest, unethical, however you wanna see it. But Zelko, what's your view on this?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "53:21", "start": 3200.82, "text": "Okay, it's hard to follow up on that one. I'll, I'll touch on the business model. I think, like you said, I understand, right? I understand that you wanna protect your investment. Maybe it has a lot to do with the investors that you get involved with, you know, some investors they put a lot of money in and they wanna make sure it's protected. That's why, you know, I'm a big advocate and believer of being very careful about the investors that you take. But we can point to projects that have, I mean, I obviously we're samurai maxies, but samurai wallet is 100% open source, and they have a amazing business model that no one touches, right? No one is going to leave samurai, like someone could fork samurai And make Ninja Wallet run their own, you know, I don't know, not whirlpool, let's call it tidal pool. They can do that and do their own thing and be totally in their own right, but ultimately, right? You're, it comes kind of back to that, that loyalty and that user base. People want to support and want to go for the product that, number one, should be the best, and number two, the one that they trust the most, and the ones that they are the most comfortable with. You know, that, that's on you as a company" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "54:28", "start": 3268.14, "text": "We have our own business model, like we, as I said, we're selling these full nodes, we're selling, you know, both cases, we're selling, which the cases, 3D printed cases that we're making, which we have a new one that Crazy K is making, that's awesome, it actually looks like a dojo, like a legitimate, like dojo, dojo, it's, it's actually really cool. We're open sourcing those, we're open sourcing the 3D cases that we made before, we'll publish those on our, our site, and anybody that wants them" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "54:58", "start": 3298.16, "text": "Open source and other people can download it, like, hey, you can do you, you know? that's, I'm not worried about that threat model. I'm not, my threat model isn't my competition trying to steal my business revenue. And if you are, you should look into, you should have a serious thought about how can I change my business model so that I don't have to worry about that, I don't have to worry about competition. It's more than just a, you know, white knight, I guess, if you will, like, being false isn't just like" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "55:28", "start": 3328.2, "text": "Or some free open source software, and it's not a thing that most normal people understand, right? I remember having this conversation with my wife, right? She's like, \"You know, can anybody just take, like, do what you do?\" And I'm like, \"Yep.\" And she was like, \"Whoa, where's like the advantage?\" And I was like, \"Well, my software.\" And she's like, \"Well, can't-- You just said they can take your software.\" I was like, \"Yep.\" Like, why? It's just this like idea that blows Take it, anybody can do anything they want with it, and it makes it more trustworthy, in my opinion, and that's why Bitcoin was always big on it, and it's part of the cypherpunk ethos. The business model, you have to make it, you have to make something that works for you. You know, Samurai Wallet has a great one with the Whirlpool fees, Ricochet, et cetera, like they, they have a great model that's really hard to fight, unless you're gonna have the liquidity to back it. You know, with us, we're A premium option, we thought about it, right? But we want everyone to be able to use the tools for free if they choose to do it that way, you know? That's, 'cause that's why we did this, we built this so that as many people could access and have access to the tools." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:41", "start": 3401.35, "text": "Yeah, you mentioned the support model, so can you tell us a little bit about that and what kind of, what you're, what, what's the offer there for listeners who are, maybe they're thinking, \"Oh, it's kind of hard, I don't really know how" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:54", "start": 3414.44, "text": "to" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "56:58", "start": 3418.22, "text": "We have, we have a silver and gold, I believe it's fifty dollars for six months or a hundred for a year. I might, don't quote me on that, it's been a minute since, since I looked at that. That's where you get premium access to any of our develop- Developers pretty much twenty four seven because between Pavel being and, where he's from, you know, we have US based people and then we have Bitcoin Q and A, which also you can attack and, and use. We're, we're there twenty four seven and we're there to help, hold your hand, get you through whatever you need to. And we actually get a lot of people who've been joining just for almost like a thank you, and then if they need anything, they're there. So that support model, it's, it's great because you know that we're always here You know, it was a way for us to kind of help, you know, offset some of the time, time allocated, you know, and that, that's why it is big, you know, I, I definitely do understand why any software, software company, right, wants to be able to pay their people, right? It's not sustainable if you don't have a business model. You can't just make free products forever and expect that project to sustain itself, it's just not a reality. I think more wallets and more different software add-ons, right? They, they need to have So yeah, for us, like the support model works. We're not in this to get rich, by any means, we're really not. We're here to, 'cause we believe in the product that we're pushing out, and we believe in the tools and the ethos that we started with was to try to get this to as many people as we could, and that's what we stick to. So, yeah, we don't, we're not here to get rich. You know, the, the plug-and-play node, is it a way for us to generate some revenue for ourselves? Absolutely." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "58:42", "start": 3521.92, "text": "Pavel, 'cause he's already a real developer. But it's a way to, to, you know, be able to focus on what we're doing, you know, and not have to bend the knee to investors that don't see eye to eye with us. It allows us to, to focus. If we can support ourselves, then we don't have to worry about, you know, what other people want. We can build the tools that we want and that our users want without any repercussion. So, again, back with that free, the free open source, it's, it, it Matter if someone tries to, to take it, because yours is gonna be better, you know, that, that should always be our mindset. And if someone builds something that's a little bit better or whatever, but you have a free open source software, they have to have the same license, so you can also then take back what they did, right? So you can remix, take some remix and back and forth, and that's how you build better, better products. So to me, it's, it's a non, non-issue, you know, it's kind of a cop out. Again" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "59:42", "start": 3581.82, "text": "Will definitely remain false. You know, they can keep building, it's good competition for us, 'cause if they're not with us, you know, they're somewhere else. We're gonna continue to, to build something really awesome, something that our users are happy with." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:53", "start": 3592.99, "text": "Nice. And so just to give a bit of context for listeners, there's a lot more users using Ronin Dojo as well compared to the early days. So do you wanna just give a bit of a, I don't know, give us a picture on hearing from new users coming in and joining the community?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:00:08", "start": 3608.8, "text": "Yeah" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "01:00:11", "start": 3611.94, "text": "Last thing, just a quick sentence, if anyone forks your product and, you aren't able to compete with them, either hire them or capitulate, no, no other way around. Just felt to jump in." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:00:24", "start": 3624.09, "text": "He was ready. Let's" }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "01:00:25", "start": 3625.09, "text": "go, I know." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:00:26", "start": 3626.33, "text": "Yes, how's the user growth been? Oh, I mean, it's, the way I like to think about it, right? We're probably the most niche market of the most niche market, right? 'Cause, I mean, Bitcoin's niche, people, then it, like, so Bitcoin's already" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:00:41", "start": 3641.86, "text": "People that want to run a node and are only samurai users are even smaller. With that still said, right, we're still growing all the time. It's actually really, really cool to see because not only do we get to see how they're interacting and why they're switching over, 'cause we get a lot of people that are coming over from either my node or Umbrel or, or they're just like, \"I, I just wanna be here,\" which is great. So that's really cool to see. I know we're working on a, a refugee, we've been saying this for The other thing is, with all new users that come in, right? They like find new bugs and find new things for us like out of nowhere, and we're like, \"Oh, that's awesome, I'm so glad that you brought that up. Now let me fix it.\" Which is cool, 'cause we're always trying to help people, and then it just makes our product more and more resilient, you know? And I'm, I'm sure that is the way for everybody. It's just, it's cool to see so many people interact and them learning. And the Do the PGP, the verification, I'm like, yes, like you are in the right spot. You have, like, it's just, it's cool to see them make this like jump, because, I mean, even, even myself, right? Like sometimes if it's software or whatever that I trust, right? Like sometimes I'll be lazy and not do that. I'm, I'm not gonna lie to, to the users, right? But, you know, you start doing it and you're like, oh yeah, I remember how cool this is, right? And you like," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:02:11", "start": 3731.88, "text": "I see Zelko and like whatever, and I'm like, \"See, this is like, that aha moment. It's just, it's so grat- like, gratification is so high. It's just, it's really cool. \" And then you see them, like, you know, they post the pictures, screenshots of their new UI, and they're like, \"This is great! \" Like, I'm so excited. Every time I see it, it just makes me remember why we're doing it, and you just get that feeling all over again, extra juice that" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:02:42", "start": 3762.1, "text": "Seeing the people who, some never touch Bitcoin before, and they left with a full node, that was pretty cool. And then seeing other people like go through of like, \"Oh, well, I, I use this node im-implementation, and why should I use this?\" And then they kind of go through this whole process, and you just see them open up and they're like, \"I wanna walk away with a Ronin dojo right now.\" And you're like, \"It's such a cool feeling seeing people really excited for something that you've worked so hard for, and having a great team that" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:03:11", "start": 3791.86, "text": "Really cool feeling. We've had some really good users, so I'm really happy about it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:03:15", "start": 3795.37, "text": "That's awesome. So let's, leave listeners a good point to, go and find you guys online, and I would encourage listeners out there who are interested in privacy, go and check out ronindojo.io. So, Zelko and Pavel, where can people, find the project, and where can they find you online?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:03:30", "start": 3810.92, "text": "Yeah, I'll do the project and then you can, I'll give you your time there, Pavel. So, yeah, That out, if you're interested at all, I would say that's almost like the best spot to start. It's got everything in there. Our code base, it's all linked in there, and that's on, on GitLab, so self-hosted. And then on Twitter, b t c x zelko, same on Telegram. I'm always on Telegram, but my DMs are always open for anybody, for anything." }, { "speaker": "btcxzelko_pavel", "time": "01:04:00", "start": 3840.38, "text": "Oh yeah, you can definitely find me in our Telegram group. I bet I'm the only Pavel in there, P A V E L. You can find me on" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04:11", "start": 3851.86, "text": "Links in the show notes, guys. but, yeah, I think that was really great, and hopefully, people, go and, take their privacy more seriously and give Rekno Dojo a go. So thanks for joining me, guys." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:04:23", "start": 3863.21, "text": "Hey, thanks for having us. I appreciate seeing you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04:25", "start": 3865.23, "text": "Thank you again. So I hope you enjoyed the show and found that valuable. If you do, make sure you share the show with your friends and family so they too can learn about Bitcoin. Find my show at stephanlivera dot com slash two eight" } ] }