{ "episodeId": "SLP281", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "cory_klippsten": { "name": "Cory Klippsten", "role": "guest", "tag": "CORY" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.85, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. Today for episode two hundred and eighty one, Cory Klippsten, CEO and founder of Swan Bitcoin, joins me to talk about a bunch of things, working in the Bitcoin space, teaching new coiners, growing the auto-staking movement, and we chat a little bit about the latest with Bitcoin Ventures, we've got a deal available, and also Elon Musk's mistakes. Mistakes. Now, this show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Swan Bitcoin holds a deep conviction that Bitcoin is the future of money. Swan's aim is to help you maximize your position in this dominant digital monetary network. As a Swan private client, you will have unlimited access to their team, strategic resources, and commitment to Bitcoin education. Bitcoin is an asymmetric investment of unparalleled proportions, rapidly becoming the preeminent wealth preservation asset for every individual and institution in the world. An opportunity like this to build and preserve legacy impacting wealth for your family Family or company will not likely be seen again in our lifetimes. The Swan Private team stands ready to earn the right to walk alongside you on every step of this journey into the future of money. Learn more at swanbitcoin dot com slash private or email the CEO Cory directly, cory at swanbitcoin dot com. Lend at HodlHodl is a peer-to-peer Bitcoin backed lending platform so you can lend or borrow crypto globally and anonymously. Lend at HodlHodl is a way to earn extra income on your stablecoins. You can lend them out and earn an average of twenty five percent APR. On the other hand, if you've got bitcoins and you don't wanna sell, well, you can now put them up as collateral and borrow against your bitcoin, and you will still hold one key in the two of three multi-signature controlling your bitcoin during that loan, since HodlHodl doesn't hold your funds. Lend at HodlHodl allows peer-to-peer lending and borrowing directly between users. So with the platform, you set your terms and put up offers depending on how long you wanna borrow or lend and the And dot hoddlehoddle dot com. Are you looking to get involved with Bitcoin mining? Compass Mining are setting it up and making it easy for everyone to mine Bitcoin and enhance the Bitcoin network's security. With Compass, you can buy an ASIC and have that sent to a facility that the Compass team have vetted and it'll be installed and you'll start earning, rewards out of that. With Compass, everyone is able to tap into the economies of scale and access reasonably priced hardware and cheap industrial power rates. So if you're unsure about how to- To get started with mining Bitcoin, you can listen to my interview, episode two hundred fifty nine, with Whit Gibbs. Compu is offering hardware and hosting bundles, so you don't actually have to have advanced technical knowledge, you can quickly get started. So visit them at compumining dot io, start mining Bitcoin today. Now onto the show with Cory. Cory, welcome back to the show. Good to be here, Stefan. Thanks for having me. So Cory, there's been a lot going on. Swan has been growing phenomenally. We've got, you know, a lot of new people coming into the space, a lot of, you know, new jobs being created in the space. All this crazy, you know, Elon and, you know, Taibbi going BSV. We've got plenty to get into today. I guess let's just start with, where do you feel we are in the cycle? You know, are you a believer? Like, I know you're not a" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "03:19", "start": 198.77, "text": "I think we have four year cycles until we don't. They'll end at some point, I don't know when that is. You know, for, for business planning purposes, you'd have to be kind of an idiot not to plan for a major downturn in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, because that's what's happened before. So we're kind of of a mind to get as much repeating revenue as possible, make sure we're well capitalized and don't overextend during a bull run to the point where you'd have to be letting people go and creating a horrible culture at your company. It's It's better in this particular field, with the types of cycles we've had, to be a little bit more cautious, in my view." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:56", "start": 235.69, "text": "Yeah, and absolutely, I think the whole auto-stacking message is so important because here's the thing, you really, really want to have your auto-stacking or your DCA Bitcoin plan on during the bull-- sorry, during the bear market, because that's when you accumulate the most. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "04:12", "start": 251.58, "text": "It's a bear market product, it really is, 'cause I, I always call it automatic recurring purchases as opposed to dollar-cost averaging. Or, you know, you can use auto DCA, that's okay, but, you know, 'cause dollar cost averaging is kind of a trading strategy, and it's generally not the optimal trading strategy if you actually have a big chunk of cash ready to go and you're in a bull trend. Of course. Because if you have an asset with upward skewed volatility, it makes more sense to smash all or most of it right up front, right? Right. So I, I usually think about automatic recurring purchases as matching to your fiat inflows. So really the product was created to pay yourself in The point of it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:50", "start": 289.89, "text": "Yeah. And I think a typical strategy is to start with a lump sum, right? So it's kind of like, you've got that new coiner, that person who is, you know, they're a pre-coiner, they're a new coiner, they don't, you know, maybe they haven't built their conviction yet. And so maybe you say, \"Look, you lump sum however much you're comfortable with, but when you lump sum in, you need to be comfortable hodling that for minimum four years or longer, ideally, and then set up" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:15", "start": 314.55, "text": "the There'll be a lot of people who might be coming in and they don't know, yeah, am I coming in at the beginning, the middle, or the late part of this cycle? And if I, if I-- and that's the anxiety most people feel, right? When you talk to people, and I'm sure you've seen this, when I talk to new people, they're sort of like, \"Oh, I'm waiting for a dip. I don't know. \" So how do you sort of answer that for them?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "05:36", "start": 335.98, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I, I do this all the" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "05:43", "start": 342.84, "text": "time Up, you're gonna be happy, and if it goes down, you're gonna be happy, and if it goes sideways, you're gonna be happy, and like, let's figure out what that is. You know, basically what I hit on, I wanna say this was something that Rob Breedlove recommended on a YouTube video, but I think, I, this is what's worked for friends and family, and when I'm forced to give an opinion, I basically say, for that lump sum part, before you get into the sort of automatic recurring purchases, just think about that total amount, smash half right" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "06:19", "start": 378.77, "text": "If it goes down, you're averaging in down. If it goes up, at least you got half of it in upfront. And I haven't had anybody freak out, and almost nobody gets through the full five weeks either, because if the price, if the price goes" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:30", "start": 390.12, "text": "smashed by by the-- Well," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "06:31", "start": 390.94, "text": "'cause they start reading like crazy. Once they've bought that first, you know, fifty percent of their initial portfolio allocation, they immediately listen to like sixty-eight podcasts and reads twelve books and, you know, rip through gradually then suddenly and whatever else they can find, and, and all of a sudden they Responsible entry advice, but, but almost nobody makes it through that sixth week or the fifth week." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:54", "start": 414.07, "text": "Yeah, I think it's almost like a psychological tool as well, because people, like, I think straight mathematically, you look in some of the personal finance and some of the financial planners and bloggers and writers, they might say, \"Yeah, lump sum is mathematically better, just lump sum it all in.\" But the reality is people aren't convicted when they start, right? And so it's kind of about, you know, getting people over the line, getting them started, and, That's been for many people, that's been their experience. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "07:22", "start": 441.67, "text": "I, I have a funny, GG story. You know, we, we lost him to the Norwegians, a few months ago, and he's, he's working at CT, so psyched for him over there. But, I think on a bunch of pods last year, I was always saying something kinda complicated, like the amount of value you're willing to store in the Bitcoin protocol is highly correlated with your understanding of Bitcoin. Anyway, one of the last gifts that GG gave me was like, \" Engineer always simplifies all this flowery languages, but yeah, that's really what it is, you know? That's why we all work on education so much. It's the Bitcoin is the story of adoption, demand isn't constant, demand is growing based on the efforts of millions of people that are trying to orange pill the world, you know? I think there are still probably less than ten million people globally that own a decent bit of their net worth stored in the Bitcoin protocol and have a pretty good understanding of Bitcoin and care about it a little bit, right? It's such a small number, I" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "08:19", "start": 498.93, "text": "In the last year, you know, this has been kind of frothy and we've added some true believers, but, but it takes time, you know, those people won't get hardened and won't really understand what Bitcoin is until next year or the year after that as they wash, you know, as the tide washes out all of the poop and all of the, all of the, all of the Cardanos and the whatever else is, you know, all this worthless stuff with high market caps. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:42", "start": 522.1, "text": "yeah. Yeah. I'm curious to get into your views on the numbers then. So, you And I think, you know, we just see these numbers thrown around, right? So the current, I guess, maybe a couple months old is, that number is, call it one hundred to two hundred million people who have some Bitcoin, right? Which, you know, if the population of the world is eight billion, then we're talking, you know, one or two percent, but that's people who have some exposure, right? And as you correctly pointed out, it's only some fraction of that who actually have conviction, who are actually holding a serious amount. So I guess, where do you think" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "09:19", "start": 558.77, "text": "Conviction either. Exactly. So what I'm looking for is that intersection of people who actually own a decent bit and actually understand what they own." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:26", "start": 566.43, "text": "Yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "09:27", "start": 567.05, "text": "And that's, that's the number that I always point to that I think is going, you know, a hundred or two hundred x over the course of this decade, where I think we're going from like seven to ten million up to a billion by twenty thirty." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:37", "start": 576.9, "text": "Yeah. And so you're saying those, like, who-- the, so that number is the people who have a significant amount and they're highly convicted" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "09:43", "start": 583.18, "text": "and understand Bitcoin. Yeah And selling Bitcoin, and you've gotta do both, 'cause the whole point is, you know, we're, we're trying to create ten million Bitcoiners just as one company, which in my personal definition of what a Bitcoiner is, I think there are fewer than ten million today." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:02", "start": 602.14, "text": "Yeah, that's interesting to think about, hey. And the other interesting stat is, during these dips, we typically see, a lot of people on, say, Swan, who are running into smash buy, right? And Swan isn't only buy, right? There's no sell, so that's why" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:19", "start": 618.79, "text": "Swan because they can't sell and so they won't panic, they're less likely to panic sell, right? So I think just, you just should do that. But I think it's interesting because then it's kind of like, who are the people selling? Well, it's probably some OG with old coins or it's some whale participant who maybe, you know, is selling on some other exchange, but then all of the, the stacking people are out here smash buying in the dips." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "10:40", "start": 639.7, "text": "Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've, the last three weeks, I mean, we're sitting Have been our best three weeks ever." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:51", "start": 650.65, "text": "That's incredible. And I mean, this has been, because over the last, well, call it two weeks, we've seen, we've seen this big dip, right? We've gone from, call it sixty thousand down to, at the bottom, maybe thirty thousand ish, right? Rough numbers. and as we speak today, it's around thirty-five thousand in US dollar terms per Bitcoin. Yeah. so it's incredible that we're seeing more people coming in at this time now after we've just taken a fifty percent," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "11:15", "start": 674.73, "text": "almost fifty percent They're, very good ri-risk adjusted entry points. Yeah. So, makes a lot of sense. I, I scraped together, I don't even just f- opening up couch cushions and stuff and scraped together a little bit to buy some more this week on top of my, on top of my auto stacking. I don't have much fiat left." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:38", "start": 697.96, "text": "Yeah, that's the reality for, like, I guess for, you know, people like you and me and kind of highly convicted Bitcoiners, that's kind of the reality of our lives that we end up just kind of keeping a low It's because we're so convicted, so what does it mean then? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "11:53", "start": 713.01, "text": "I think it was a Twitter exchange maybe between Nick, Carter, and Eric Walle or something, and, and just popped up in my feed. It was kind of old, it was probably three, four months old, but I, I just saw it for the first time and it was, you know, they were referring to, the EMH and why it doesn't work, and the reason it doesn't work is because the people that understand that it's supposed to work don't have any" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:11", "start": 731.02, "text": "more People are social creatures, right? And it's not everyone is making logical and rational choices. Really, we make an emotional kind of, we, we sort of make a decision and then backwards rationalize, and we just kind of look at what our family and our friends are doing. And so I think that's really the reality of it. And so I'm sure the same thing in terms of signing up users, it's kind of like you might get one person who signs up, and then they, after a couple months, they're liking the experience, they're like, they tell their family," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "12:49", "start": 768.77, "text": "That is, that, that is a big part of it, you know, we've got, I think, seven thousand affiliates now, that send people to Swan, but you should all listen to-- You should go to swanbitcoin dot com slash livera, that's the best one of the, of the seven thousand, to sign up. But, yeah, I mean, that's, that's really good. And then, you know, we're starting to spread into these, high net worth networks of folks, you know, like YPO chapters and CEO councils" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "13:19", "start": 798.81, "text": "Each other, and it kinda happens that way as well. And international has been just absolutely massive as well, a huge boost since we opened up outside the US just for wire transfers. So we're not doing the auto DCA, we are gonna actually let people DCA after sending a wire transfer, but that's probably, again, more of a, a solid bear market strategy or, you know, something that you might just do if, if you really feel like doing that. I'm- I don't love that product personally, but a lot of people have asked for it, so we're gonna just offer it and sort of let people fund however they want and use, use the, product however they want." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:57", "start": 836.52, "text": "The auto-stacking that way, yeah. So as an example, they might do, you know, wire in a large sum and then say, \"I wanted to, I wanted to buy, you know,\" A little bit every day as opposed to lump sum all at the start. So with Swan, what's the, what's the story looking like with users and, the, you know, the amount of stacking going on?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "14:18", "start": 858.22, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's obviously it's been pretty exciting. I think we went public with a number for the first time. Maybe five weeks ago or something like that, which is that we grew from obviously like zero to a billion dollars in our first year, so that was pretty cool. That's a billion dollar run rate sales. so that's pretty exciting, and I think it's, it's good to show that a Bitcoin only company can grow and grow fast and build a good brand, and, you know, I think, the growth has continued, at a very rapid pace since then. you know, so a little startup that just got going and is already over ten percent of Cash App's Bitcoin sales is pretty cool." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:59", "start": 899.34, "text": "Yeah, that's really impressive given the relative size of the organizations we're talking about, right?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "15:04", "start": 904.47, "text": "Yeah, yeah. I'll, I'll take ten percent of their market cap, that'd be nice, but I think we're a long way off from that. They do a few other things besides sell Bitcoin, it turns out. it's a, it's actually a pretty awesome company. I've got a lot of friends over there. So." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:17", "start": 917.45, "text": "Yeah, Because online, some of our haters, or if you will, the antis-- there are some people who are experts in hating Bitcoin, right? And so they like to say, \"Oh, see, Bitcoin is only for the rich tech bros, or it's only for, you know, these kind of...\" People in their mom's basement and things like that, and I think part of the story is actually showing why Bitcoin is for everyone, isn't it?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "15:44", "start": 943.58, "text": "I'm glad you said that specific phrase. yeah, we're, we're actually in the middle of a, a big effort to record hundreds and hundreds of people on camera under the aegis of Bitcoin is for everyone, so this is celebrities and athletes and grandmas and your cousin and Daniel Princes daughter and you know, every, every podcaster and pleb and Swan and whatever, like everybody's just kinda recording these videos. and yeah, we'll be distributing those and getting lots of other companies involved in that over time and just kinda putting a human face on Bitcoin and showing, you know, who's actually involved in this, you know, people from Jamaica and people from South... South Africa and people from Gambia and people from all over the place talking about Bitcoin. I think it's gonna be really powerful and, you know, we're putting some, putting some real love into the production and the editing and, and gonna kinda distribute it as widely as possible and, give a little bit of a counterpoint to some of those narratives out there about what the Bitcoin monoculture supposedly is, 'cause it ain't a monoculture at all." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:51", "start": 1011.33, "text": "Yeah, and I mean, even inside the Bitcoin world, there's all different- Kinds of, there's all different points of view, so it's interesting that people say that about the Bitcoin people when really if they were to look inside more deeply, they'd see there's all these disagreements within the community about little things. Like, I think most people kind of broadly agree on the key ideas, but there's kind of little disagreements here and there about it. So." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "17:16", "start": 1035.62, "text": "Well, there're gonna be eight billion of us, we're gonna disagree a lot, you know? But, but, but we're roughly sort of moving in the same direction. Interaction, which is what's important." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:26", "start": 1045.73, "text": "Yeah, I wonder that. And, yeah, and it, it kind of appeals to this-- to a certain kind of person, right? In the earlier days or even today, it appeals to a certain kind of person who maybe is a little bit more curious and is perhaps a little bit more willing to question and go outside what, what the normal TV is telling them to do." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "17:45", "start": 1065.1, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you, you find out very quickly if, if you thought that you might have been sort of, contrarian Or didn't really care that much what people think about you and your views, and then you find yourself being a hardcore Bitcoiner, then you've probably confirmed that you were correct about yourself. You know? And then also like if other people use that as a, as a slag on you over the course of your life or use that as, you know, something, you know, you weren't playing nice with the other kids or why can't you just like stay in the straight jacket and the corporate job and, you know, you gotta put in four years, you can't job You're finding out what the returns are to non-conformity if you're a Bitcoiner." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:29", "start": 1109.01, "text": "Yeah, and so there are things where we as Bitcoiners support them a lot more, like we're overrepresented. So another example would be remote work, right? A lot of Bitcoiners are into remote work, and a lot of Bitcoin companies have remote work because it's, it's just seen-- and this is, you know, even before all the co-- all the, you know, hysteria nineteen, lockdown, whatever, like we were just more about that. and so I think that's interesting" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:54", "start": 1133.85, "text": "Of Jobs dot co, so let's chat a little bit about that. What is it and, you know, why should people, go work in a Bitcoin job?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "19:00", "start": 1139.83, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So on your remote work point, we just wanna work with Bitcoiners and people that love Bitcoin and only hold Bitcoin, like that's a pre-rack, you can't be into anything else. I mean, we really don't even let people like appreciate much sell your chairs, too. It's just sell your chairs, yeah, you can, no chairs, no chairs at Swan. At least we don If you have a chair there, we don't want to see it. Thanks, Pierre. Thanks for that one. But no, I mean, I, I think it's only natural. It was never a question for us. We never tried to have an office because the best Bitcoiner for each role was whoever that was, wherever it is, and things run very efficiently now with Slack and Zoom and that's all you really need. A little Telegram and Twitter for external, Slack and Zoom for internal, and a tiny bit of email, and you're good to go. so it's just never been It's all pretty flat. we don't have second line management yet, so there are people that manage people that work for me, but like, like, it's still super organic and sort of self organizing, which is really cool. And the, what lets you do that is because we're all kind of, you know, it's like, it's like everybody being in skull and bones, like we're all Bitcoiners. There's a, there's a shared understanding and there's honor and there's integrity, and then you're trying to, you're on this mission to drive adoption, and Issues or helping them with their onboarding or helping them think about their purchase plans or, you know, how to, how to get their bank to release the fiat from the dirty fiat system and send it to buy some beautiful orange coin, like, you know, we're all kind of on the same exact mission all the time, and it just, it requires very little hierarchy and very little management at any level because everybody knows exactly what the right thing to do is all the time. We always just say internally and externally, like, we're always trying to do the best thing for Bitcoin and for Bitcoiners, and Only raise a hand if it's unclear what that is. It's very rare that it's unclear what the best thing is to do. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:59", "start": 1258.83, "text": "that's awesome, man. and I, I think it's good that, because, you know, in years gone by, when you were trying to teach people how to get in, you'd often have to send them to some exchange where there'd be all these different coins, and it's just like, it's so confusing to people, and especially for, when someone is new, then they, they would come to you with all these questions" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:24", "start": 1283.89, "text": "RP or some, some stupid like that, and I, I would just get so annoyed, and now that there are actually Bitcoin only companies I can tell them to go to, I just, it's, it saves, it actually saves me a lot of time because I don't actually have to spend all this time, like, 'cause they're less likely to go and get told by some crypto influencer that they need to do their own research and read the white paper, and it's all just laughing, right? So I'm, I'm very grateful that that exists now, and," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "21:49", "start": 1309.45, "text": "yeah. Market before us in particular, you know, the Bull Bitcoin guys with Bull Bitcoin up in Canada, and then, Alex and Amber in Australia, you know, I think they kind of paved the way and showed that there was appetite for that model and that you could be Bitcoin only and, you know, obviously that, I think Coinfloor, you know, somebody like Obi over in the UK with Coinfloor that used to sell other coins, was kind of shown that you could be successful doing Bitcoin only and decided to go that route and obviously he's been years now doing a great job And Swan is proving the same thing, which is really cool." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:26", "start": 1346.31, "text": "Yeah. and then as Bitcoiners, it is a common thing where people get so engaged into the Bitcoin ecosystem that they're, okay, so they're listening to podcasts, they are reading articles, they're reading books, and it's only natural for many of peo-many people to want to work in the Bitcoin sphere. But then, yeah, the trade-off, the dilemma for many of them is that they feel like, well, they might be earning a lot more in their fiat job, but they might be a lot more passionate about That and when someone asks you that question, how do you help them there?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "22:57", "start": 1376.87, "text": "Yeah, that is, that is the dilemma typically, you know, and that there's just not that many Bitcoin jobs, but I think that will change dramatically because, like I said, I think we're going to a world where you're going to move very quickly beyond just mining and exchanges being profitable as industries around Bitcoin, and I think this, it's, it's obviously not really this cycle 'cause there aren't a lot of companies that are making tons of money Bitcoin Coin only outside of those two industries yet, but I do think this next bull run, whatever it is, twenty twenty-four, let's say, or something like that, I think you're gonna start to see the rise of companies that, start to make a lot of money around payments, around, you know, culturally related things, like, you know, Bitcoin as a cultural movement is gonna be ten to a hundred times bigger than, let's say, like CrossFit slash Paleo slash Quantified Self slash Carnivore, which kind of came up in two thousand eight, two thousand nine, and, Made careers and millions of dollars out of that movement, and I think Bitcoin is way, way bigger than that, right? Like Bitcoin should be like paleo, CrossFit, plus surfing, plus kiteboarding, plus skateboarding, plus- You know, '80s culture, whatever it is, all wrapped into this one giant thing. So I, I'm really bullish on all kinds of Bitcoin related products and services, and, you know, being the Bitcoiner's choice in almost any field, right? Kind of the way that like, Andrew, Jeff Andrew is kind of set up as being like the guy that helps you sort out your, your ownership structures related to Bitcoin and how good that's been for him, or, you know, maybe like, like a Lynn Alden being like the macro research person that really gets- Bitcoin and weaves it into these other narratives. I think there's, you know, the, the Bitcoin personal trainer is gonna crush it in every city because a Bitcoiner wants to talk about Bitcoin and, you know, all the time. And is gonna prefer that personal trainer. So I think that's already kind of starting to happen organically. And, you know, you mentioned Bitcoiner Jobs dot co, which is, you know, sort of just a little side project that I started and then, recruited a guy named Nathan, who's been on some of the podcasts, who's built it out. And, you know, that right now is just matching Bitcoiners that wanna work in Bitcoin companies, and there's been dozens of matches, and there's, you know, many hundreds of jobs posted there. And, I use it, I, hilariously, like, I started the thing and I looked at like, who had the most jobs posted, and it was like, two of the top three were River and Strike, which are probably like, the two companies that overlap with what we do in the US the most. And I was like, whatever, community resource is what it is. Yeah, yeah. You know? So, so, yeah, it's been great to see that taken, take off, and I, I think it's important, you know, when, when there's a real Jobs. When Andreessen raises one point eight billion dollars for Shitcoins, you know, it's important to have a Bitcoiner Ventures dot com. So you always have to kind of like get rid of the crap, and, you know, there'll be something that's worth doing that I think in the long run will actually be a lot bigger than the crypto stuff is now. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:05", "start": 1565.39, "text": "Yeah. And it's, I mean, as you were saying, it's just like setting up a Bitcoin only business. It's, it's the same, it's just setting up the Bitcoin only equivalent of some of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:18", "start": 1578.42, "text": "Quite often as well, right? I get a lot of DMs. I, I try to give people a bit of a tip on that, but I guess h-here's my thoughts on it. I think for most people, you'll be earning more money in your fiat job. If you're comfortable just doing your fiat job and you think you can save more and stack more sats this way, and you're comfortable with that, then, you know, stick with it. But if you're, you know, for people who are at that level where they're like, \"Look, I It doesn't work for everyone because, you know, right, as you said, there's just not that many Bitcoin jobs, but, you know, there might be some jobs out there. Bitcoinerjobs dot co has some, and sometimes people in the space, you start doing something, yeah, go on." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "26:59", "start": 1618.77, "text": "Well, this, this, this decision has been-- This is the same decision that everyone always makes, whether they wanna stay in corporate versus go work for a startup. It's not really any different. And, and again, I think over the next few years, you're gonna start" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "27:17", "start": 1637.08, "text": "to Silicon Valley backed startups. I think you're, you're starting to see that, right? You're starting to see like larger rounds go down for the Lightning Labs and the Casas and the Rivers and the Strikes. We haven't announced anything, but, you know, our valuation is, is rather high at this point. And, you know, I think, I think that's good. I think that it will start to show people that they can come and start Bitcoin only companies and you're gonna give top and mid level employees like fairly hefty equity packages. And that's always been the Stanley or Google to go work for some Silicon Valley startup, mostly for equity, you know, and take that bet and bet on yourself and bet on your choice of which team to join and your ability to help that team succeed. So I don't, I don't think it's gonna be, it's just gonna be normal at some point to make the same kind of decision to go get into Bitcoin as it's always been to leave corporate and get into entrepreneurship." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:10", "start": 1690.11, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. My favorite Bitcoin hardware wallet, the Coldcard, is created by CoinKite dot com, one of the By Bitcoiners. It offers the ability to use it completely airgapped, so you can use an SD card and ferry it back and forward from the cold card to your laptop with Spectre or Sparrow or Electrum. It's quite a versatile wallet, as you can use this in a single signature setup on its own when you're first learning how to get your coins off the exchange, or you can use a cold card as part of a multi-signature setup and use it alongside other devices, e-even if you're using, say, Unchained's multi-signature setup. So go Go to coinkite dot com and use the code levera to get a discount on your cold card. Unchained Capital are building Bitcoin native financial services on a foundation of multi-signature, so if you have left your coins on the exchange or maybe you're just sitting on a single-signature hardware wallet, well, have you thought about upgrading to multi-signature? With multi-signature, you can separate those keys and reduce single points of failure in your security setup. So Unchained offer vaults, they are two of three, and so they also offer a concierge service. So If you want somebody to ship you two hardware wallets, answer your questions, and then deposit a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in your vault, well, you can use this service, and you can use the code LIVERA to get a discount there. Unchained also offer OTC desk in various states in the US, they offer loans, and they've also got advanced business accounts, so you can move your corporate treasury to Bitcoin also. So go to unchained dot com to find out everything you need. CipherSafe dot io are creating metal seed backup products. So when you create your Bitcoin wallet, say a hardware wallet, and you've got those twelve or twenty-four words, well, you need to make sure that that is backed up in a way that's fireproof and rustproof and waterproof. CipherSafe are coming out with the CipherGrid, which is available for pre-order now. This is the best value in the industry. You get everything you need for fifty-nine dollars. It has two stainless steel plates for all twenty-four words. It has privacy by default. The plates are facing each other. You, it can be locked with a padlock, you get a tamper-evident seal, and you get the automatic center punch provided also. So I think this is a great deal for everyone looking to back up their coins. Go to ciphersafe dot io and use the code livera to pre-order your cipher grid. Back to the show. Right, yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. And ultimately, it's all about trying to help turn Bitcoin into money, right? Because money is the largest market. Yeah. And so if you can assist in some small marginal way Help push the ball a little bit further, along with everybody else in here trying to do the same thing, then I guess, yeah, it's that same, it's that same bet that people take. yeah. So it's an interesting point you made, you raised around, valuations and doing rounds. Let's, get an update from you on Bitcoin Ventures. What's, the latest there that we, we've got to share?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "31:01", "start": 1861.03, "text": "Yeah. So we were, so anybody who's been following, so it's an angelus syndicate. the" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "31:13", "start": 1872.84, "text": "Pritzker, the, author of Inventing Bitcoin and, and my co-founder at Swan, and, yeah, we just try to find, good Bitcoin-only startups that, you know, wanna benefit from having a lot of people sort of in the ecosystem, so it's usually gonna tend to be a little bit more consumer-facing, where kind of the, the founders and the, and the company or the product are pretty well-known and, and pretty popular. That's a lot easier to get a syndicate to, to put money into than maybe like some B so yeah, we did our first deal last year, about this time, it was in Q2, was, Unchained Capital last year. a few months ago, we completed our second deal, which was, BitRefill, which is awesome. So BitQuickcoin Adventures is on those two cap tables, and then, the third one is going down right now. Can't say who it is because your entire audience may not be accredited in the US, but, if you go to bitcoinerventures dot com, there's a link right there" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "32:13", "start": 1932.98, "text": "Apply and get certified by AngelList and, and contribute to that. Check sizes anywhere from like a thousand bucks to fifty thousand dollars, our typical check size into a, a startup is two hundred, two hundred fifty K, so that's what we're doing into this current deal. and basically the, the setup is the four partners take no fees, no carry, and all four of us, all four of us have to agree to invest in the exact same syndicate on the exact same terms. So, you know, we've got skin in the game and, you know, we're, invest into, and, so yeah, it's exciting to have deal number three on the way, and, you know, we hope this eventually becomes such a big deal that it's very easy to turn it into a committed capital fund, and, you know, someone that is, a little less busy than Stefan, Cory, and Jan, might actually be an active manager of a fund in the future, and maybe it goes that direction, but we'll probably always keep the syndicate alive." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:04", "start": 1984.29, "text": "Yeah, and I, I'm, I'm excited to be a part of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:09", "start": 1988.61, "text": "it. I That you like, you know, so obviously Unchained Capital, I'm a huge fan of them. Now, of course, they're a sponsor of my show as well, but I, I'm a big fan of their business and the way they are, and, Bitrefill as well, also helping people who really wanna live on Bitcoin and actually buy vouchers and be able to earn SATs and then directly spend those SATs, and I think it's such a excellent business that it's really helping people achieve that. So that for me is, you know, I'm very excited I think it's a really great company, so I'm excited to see where that goes. Yeah. Yeah. So, alright, so there's a lot of other things going on in the space, I guess narrative-wise, if you will, right? Now, some of this stuff isn't really-- how would I put it? Sometimes it's not necessarily about the actual facts, right? It's like the energy debate, sometimes it's not actually about how much electricity, Bitcoin is using, it's actually just about certain power dynamics that are playing out in, in a way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:13", "start": 2052.86, "text": "Stuff going on, and, you know, what, what do you think?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "34:15", "start": 2055.4, "text": "Well, I mean, I think it's one of these things, y-y-you know, it's not unlike the, I forget what the, I forget what the, the psychologist that named this effect, but it's basically like, when you read one story in the New York Times about a field that you know really well, and you're like, \"Oh," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:31", "start": 2070.61, "text": "German amnesia, something, German amnesia, something" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "34:35", "start": 2074.79, "text": "like that.\" Yeah. Something like that. Anyway, you know what I Facts and, in the story, are true and that it's good reporting. You know, it's kind of like that for me with Elon. You know, like I, I am aware and have been for many years that he has, you know, aggressive detractors of him personally and, you know, the way he does business and the way that sort of Tesla makes money and SpaceX and this, that, and the other things and, you know, and, you know, how he actually operated at PayPal and what happened at the end and all those kinds of things. And, you know, I just" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "35:13", "start": 2112.84, "text": "I do, I, I actually have spent quite a bit of time in, you know, EVs and Tesla long ago, like pre Bitcoin, and, so I was kind of a fan, and I still think that Model X's are dope, they're great cars. But, but watching him come and wade his toe into Bitcoin and just absolutely just poop on everything like a toddler and be wrong so often with such sort of apparently vehement certainty while being provably incorrect, you know, it just, it made him look really, really bad because now- I'm going back, and I'm not the only one, that's going back and checking in with friends that have been skeptics of all kinds of other things that he's done in the past that I've given him a pass on because I was broadly a fan of, you know, cool cars and going to space, you know? So- Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, I think he- I don't, I think he thinks that he's gonna be able to dig himself out of this at some point, and we're never gonna forget. I will never trust him, you know? Because What you know and what you don't know, and you have to clearly mark it. You know, you have to clearly mark when you're off in territory where you're not certain and you may not have all the facts. And that's what's been just so dramatic about Elon in particular, because he's been stating things as fact without caveat that are false. So I can't trust him ever again, 'cause I know he's that type of person. And that's hard, it sucks. You gotta kill your heroes, I guess, when they act like that. Taleb, who we should" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "36:43", "start": 2202.82, "text": "In the top one percent of Bitcoiners as far as, you know, Telev expertise and reading all the books nine million times or whatever, but, and it's hard, man, 'cause yeah, obviously I'm a big fan of the books and I thought, you know, Swan was derived from Black Swan 'cause I think Bitcoin is the, the biggest Black Swan in history, and, yeah, this, this latest turn for him has been a dramatic amount of showing ones behind to the world as uninformed, as egotistical, and, and just straight up wrong. So, yeah, it, it hurts. We actually, from the Swan handle, today was the day that we, unfollowed Nasim from the Swan handle. We always only follow twenty-one people from the Swan handle. Right, yeah. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:25", "start": 2244.72, "text": "the changing relationship, right? Yeah, yeah," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "37:26", "start": 2246.26, "text": "we're following twenty now, and, and we'll see, we gotta follow somebody else next week." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:31", "start": 2250.67, "text": "Yeah, yeah. I, I think it's, this space is very challenging for newcomers who have an ego, and I think sometimes when people don't kind of set that aside. Right, I mean, I'm still a fan of, you know, his books. Like, I, I loved Fools by Randomness. I really enjoyed reading that book. that's probably my favorite of his books. But I think he-- it seems to me like he let his personal antagonism and, you know, his-- that deterioration in the, in the relationship with Saftein kind of color the way he saw Bitcoin. And now, this recent thing is he's going on some BSV conference with like Craig Wright and some of these other BSV people." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "38:10", "start": 2289.93, "text": "Yeah, yeah, he Speaking fee or whatever they pay people, I don't know how they get people to go to that thing. But, yeah, very disappointing. But, yeah, and he, he fell for the stupid trope of like, \"Well, it says cash, and cash means paper cash, right?\" And it's like, \"No, bro, that's, that's like fiat medium exchange. That's not what he's talking about. We're talking about a bearer asset, that's what cash is.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:32", "start": 2311.91, "text": "Yeah," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "38:33", "start": 2312.63, "text": "exactly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:36", "start": 2316.27, "text": "Yeah. That's the shame. so yeah, it's You know, kind of shut up and do the reading and shut up and do the listening to the podcast or watching the YouTubes or ask questions, but in a way where you're sort of, you're not coming out with such a forceful confidence about, \"I am right and this is the only way it could be,\" because many people in Bitcoin have come before and have asked those same questions and answered those same questions. And I, I think it was really disappointing with Elon as well, right? Because he, he comes in, thinks he's," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:09", "start": 2349.33, "text": "I mean, sure, he's a Thought just like an engineer, oh, I'll just change this dial, just raise the block size ten x, and just totally ignore the year, the multi-year debate and infighting and basically civil war that people had, that we had in Bitcoin, because he, you know, naively thought, oh, just ten x the block size and therefore we'll get more transactions, and there's no trade-off for that. Why, why don't know why you, idiot Bitcoin people didn't just do that, right? And the reality is he just didn't understand the history." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "39:38", "start": 2377.97, "text": "No, he doesn't get it You know, it's only been a few days now since Dallio, Ray Dalio started to really say things that feel kind of more in line with an understanding of Bitcoin and appreciation for it. And, you know, he, he said dumb things many times about Bitcoin, but somehow it was so clear that it wasn't actually really emotional. He was really just parroting things that his social circle or his lieutenants had said to him, like, you know, talking about underlying technology and maybe there's something to, you know, blockchain all the things and the government can- Ban Bitcoin anytime they want to and all these kinds of things, but like they were kind of just re-repeated talking points. You never saw an indication that he'd actually like tried to understand it and come out one way or another, and I kind of give old dudes a pass when it comes to that. And then you, you're kind of seeing, I mean, I'm kind of have to be a little bit of a fan here and give him a pass because he is kind of living by the principles that he purported to have, right? Which is, you know, he's not gonna have an ego He actually understands what's going on, and, you know, you're kind of seeing it happen. I don't know if some of these people will get around to it, you know, it's, it's a race against time for Charlie Munger, if he's gonna be around long enough to do his own research and understand the truth, you know, and Nasim does a lot of deadlifts, but he eats a lot of pasta, and, you know, he may not ever actually appreciate Bitcoin in this lifetime. It's very possible he never will." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:08", "start": 2467.59, "text": "I hope is worth bringing up is, it's hard to learn in public, especially when you're already famous, you've already got a following, maybe it's difficult for you to then turn around and say, \"Oh, wait a minute, maybe I was wrong about this thing.\" And it's hard, it like, of course we can talk about it," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "41:28", "start": 2487.55, "text": "but I think it's such a horrible character flaw that's massively ego-driven to feel like you have to pontificate about something that you don't actually understand yet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:35", "start": 2495.47, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "41:36", "start": 2495.85, "text": "You know, and you're seeing it with Mark Cuban, you're seeing it with Te That feel like they have to give an opinion on something that they don't understand, and so then we get to how we kind of opened this section, which is like, it's really difficult for me to have respect for somebody that doesn't know where the line is between the things that they actually know and have a firm grasp on and what they're just opining on without actually understanding it. And, and I just can only imagine now, like, when you see this happening with something that you care about as deeply as Bitcoin and that you study as much as, you know, we have, and you way more This subject that we care about, I now just think of like all of my friends that have had subjects that they know deeply and, you know, all of the people they've had to put up with pontificating about theirs. It makes me much more careful about, you know, opining and, and stepping over the line in other subjects, that's for sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:30", "start": 2550.15, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And so, the other, I guess, really disappointing is the Elon case, right? Because his company had gone and bought, was, I can't remember off the top of my head, maybe one point five Was unaware, I mean, was seemingly unaware that Bitcoin's mining hash rate protects the overall network and it doesn't just naively scale by the transactions, right? And so to, to then hold Bitcoin on the Tesla balance sheet, but then say, \"Oh, see, as Tesla, we're not gonna take it as payment anymore.\" It's like, do you understand that that hash rate, it's, it's one and the same thing, it's securing the overall network, right? And, and I don't understand how he could have, like, how did he, how did he get" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "43:09", "start": 2588.93, "text": "there, It was about their new sort of plan for, renewable energy credits that came out like a day or two after that, and the fact that he screenshotted a Tesla press release and didn't sort of tweet it out in his own language about shutting down the, you know, I don't know, I just think he's gotten a lot of pressure from a lot of people, you know, and Tesla's supposed to be this green energy company and it's very dependent upon, you know, subsidies basically, and so they're just kind of like playing this have it both ways thing right now." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:41", "start": 2621.15, "text": "Yeah, It's a real shame because just, you know, people were pointing out even Elon from one or two months ago had just responded to like Jack Dorsey saying, \"Yeah, it actually does incentivize renewable energy for people who care about that, right?\" And it's, yeah, it just seems like a massive hypocrisy, but, you know, what can you say, right? We're in this little world and we can't access all the normal people out there who hear what he says. Yeah. So we're kind of stuck." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "44:05", "start": 2645.37, "text": "And also he has a, and he has a board, right? He And he can say he doesn't care about money as often as he wants to, but a lot of the people around him that can outvote him and influence him and make things in other areas that he's passionate about like really difficult for him, they can influence what Tesla does, what SpaceX does, what any of these companies do. It's a lot of stakeholders with a lot of money and a lot of power, and I don't think that he holds over fifty percent of the power, however you might quantify that in any of his ventures, except maybe the Boring Company, right? Like if other They'll, they'll have a quorum and they'll be able to make him do something different with SpaceX and with Tesla." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:49", "start": 2688.76, "text": "Yeah, so he has to play the political game a little bit there. And then the, the whole mining council aspect of it as well. I'm wondering what you think on that." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "44:58", "start": 2697.69, "text": "Yeah, I mean, obviously caveat that I'm on the advisory board of Riot Blockchain, which is a big North American Bitcoin mining company on, on the Nasdaq, but, you know, I, I'm, I'm not that worried about it. Like if the game theory in Bitcoin You know, mining cartels are a problem, but it, it, we don't think that that's the case. We, we don't, we've seen this happen before, and, you know, it just seems like more fud. And, you know, I think the, you know, like Riot already publishes their energy mix in all of their public company reporting, so, you know, signing up to a council that's supposed to be transparent about their energy mix was an easy yes. There's not some sort of like cabal of miners coalescing around this, you know, We're a conference call and invited Elon, and that's basically all it was so far. So, you know, I don't know, I mean, I think that it's really, really a good idea to always be skeptical of, you know, councils and cabals and sort of, you know, things happening behind closed doors anywhere around Bitcoin, you know? And seeing, you know, two of the four founding members of the cryptocurrency council or whatever being like Fred and Brian, you know, freaks me out, obviously, but, you know, there can be lots of different lobbyist organizations and lots of" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "46:13", "start": 2772.84, "text": "ever speaks for Bitcoin and Bitcoiners. You know, it's, it's a free and open marketplace, and we can all volunteer our time and our resources at any moment. And, you know, I think the other thing that people might be discounting, and this is basically just, you know, as soon as Bitcoin got into the five digits, there are so many Bitcoiners with so much financial resource at this point that if there's ever actually like a real threat to the network of some kind, I just think you're gonna see, you know, if you thought that UASF and some of the PR Organized in twenty sixteen, seventeen, like I just think the way this community would, would, would spend time and value to protect Bitcoin against a threat would be orders of magnitude larger than anything we've ever seen before, and it would have, you know, lobbyists and lawyers and all kinds of social media, this, that, and the other, and it would be all decentralized, 'cause there is no frickin' CEO, and, you know, there's no consensus in Brooklyn, and, you know, so it wouldn't be controlled, but I think a lot of people would I mean, look at what, you know, Chris Calicott and the, and the t v p guys, Bitcoin, I'm sorry, the Bitcoin Venture Fund, b v p, yeah, or b v f, sorry, in, in Texas, you know, they and their friends kinda got a Bitcoin bill. I don't know really what's in it, but, you know, they got something that I've been told is fairly favorable passed in Texas, and, you know, I think that's very sort of repeatable and they can do that over and over again if needed" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:43", "start": 2863.02, "text": "Sort of came together for this council thing, and the-- I guess the reality of it though, is that that, that their combined hash rate is probably something around ten percent of the network, so even then, it's not really like the whole network is going this way, and so I guess, yeah." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "47:56", "start": 2876.24, "text": "There's not much chance of any of the other companies at that table cooperating on anything that Marathon wants to do. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:03", "start": 2882.83, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "48:03", "start": 2883.19, "text": "Right? Like no, no one that's really like into Bitcoin is about to follow that path of trying to mine clean blocks and join Mr. Wonderful or Mr. Like to call them, you know, let's not, let's not, let's not mind any blood coins, you know, like these guys are just talking out of their ass trying to, like, gather attention for themselves and, you know, try to, you know, if you, if you introduce inefficiency into a market, you create a spread and you can take the spread, and that's what they do. They try to introduce inefficiency into a market because then there are two different prices for the same good and they can take the spread, even if they only take part of it." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "48:43", "start": 2922.92, "text": "One percent more, then Mr. Blunderful can take half of a point, right? You know, and Mara can do the same thing. They can say like, \"Oh, we're mining clean blocks, then we owe FAX scans them, and when they didn't get coin joined in the last six hops or whatever it is, pay a little bit more, but they'll have a mining pool that, you know, they're taking one or two percent off the top or whatever the economics are because some other people wanna-- It's like co-op advertising, you know? It's like all the McDonald" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "49:13", "start": 2952.98, "text": "That you're good and you're, you're in Bitcoin, but you're one of the good ones. Like that's, they're creating that opportunity for the weak-minded people, right? Yeah. To go and, you know, decide that they wanna get on board for that PR move, and they're just grifters. Yeah. And it's like trying to, yeah. It's just like Loiski creating the DFS, right? It's the exact same thing, it's just grift." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:31", "start": 2971.47, "text": "Yeah. And it's like trying to differentiate, right? They're trying to be in Bitcoin, Their view to try to get everyone else to come along with their narrative, but we don't actually have to go with their narrative. We'll just say like, \"No, actually, you're just factually wrong. There is no blood coins, and even this whole notion of virgin coins straight from the mining, that those are untainted and whatever. The reality is, miner fees are also included as well into those blocks. And so they also, quote unquote, taint the block. And over time, right? If we're all right about this thing and Bitcoin is going crazy way higher, absolutely, So, so it, it just is a completely flawed narrative, and I think it's, the smart people understand that this isn't a thing, but I wonder, you know, will the masses go along with them or does it matter that we, go out there and debunk these things? Or do you think it doesn't really matter in the end?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "50:27", "start": 3027.49, "text": "I don't think it really matters in the end. And, you know, a good movement actually wants a diversity of voices, and you don't actually wanna shut them down. And I'm, I'm kinda like, 'cause I've Some diverging opinions about small aspects of what's going on, and like, it's totally fine to use, well, well, Saylor is essentially now like a cat's paw that's going and dealing with that shit, and he can use and spend some of his credibility that he's gained with the Bitcoin community by, instead of, you know, what I think, you know, the, the morally upstanding thing to do would be not give an inch 'cause they might take a mile, and it would be Saylor, it would, it would say like, \"No, we're not doing anything" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "51:13", "start": 3073.2, "text": "And it's, you know, Bitcoin mining is more important than Christmas trees and Xbox and aircraft carriers and anything else. There's nothing more important. And we'll keep on making that point for the people that wanna go down the rabbit hole, but the mainstream press is only gonna cover something that directly counters and addresses the point that's being made. They're not gonna bring to the masses the hour-long debate from first principles that explains why the point was stupid in the first place. And I think Saylor understands that, and he's decided that he's willing to spend some of his credibility With the Hornets by, you know, engaging in what is essentially like a disingenuous debate sparked by people in the wrong, and he's just gonna kind of throw him a bone and kind of deflate that. That's what I think is going on. I don't, I don't think he's stupid. I don't think he-- I think he actually understands exactly what's going on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:00", "start": 3119.61, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, I think he understands, but, yeah, you never know. But, yeah, it seems to me like, you know, he, he-- That's, you know, he's Walk back your past mistake and just understand, actually a lot of the energy usage in, yeah, you know, Bitcoin is renewable anyway, and actually arguably is more renewable than many other industries that already exist today, and people are clearly comfortable with those other industries existing." }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "52:28", "start": 3148.19, "text": "Yeah. I mean, we have to, we have to get really comfortable with, with politics and talking points and, you know, the kind of debate skills, right? Like, I don't, I don't think it's an accident that like Brady and Pierre and Bitstein are all like champion debaters, you know? Like, they're Doing it since they were kids. and I think we're gonna see more and more people with PR skills, political skills. I mean, think of what Saylor had to go through with his company. Imagine the meetings he had with crisis PR as they went through like SEC lawsuits and shareholder lawsuits and the stock price plummeting ninety-nine point eight percent and sticking it out and coming all the way back. You know, like he's been through this before. This isn't a PR crisis within an order of magnitude of things that he dealt with twenty years ago. Yeah. Like he's fine. He'll deal with this and he'll keep his eyes on the prize, and I think the prize is Bitcoinization. Yeah, for sure, for sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:19", "start": 3198.76, "text": "Alright, well, I guess we're kinda wrapping it up then. do you have any tips for listeners out there as they, you know, try to build or grow this movement out there?" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "53:28", "start": 3207.95, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I, I always like to just chill, Jan's book, 'cause I just think it's such a great starting point. So Jan Pritzker, I," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:37", "start": 3216.89, "text": "and you can get it for free, right" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "53:43", "start": 3222.92, "text": "I really just try to get people to spend that two hours and kinda start there and, and then listen to episode seventy-one of, Stefan Livera's show, which is, which is the monologue show where he breaks down Austrian economics in relation to Bitcoin, but I, I think it's a really powerful one and I still recommend it all the time. But, yeah, I mean, I think we, we should have our You- we got our YouTube channel taken down with no explanation from YouTube this morning, so getting the platformed again. Oh, what? Oh Happening, and we don't obviously do anything at all wrong with regards to that, but every once in a while, I don't know if it's, yeah, of course not, you know, all the miners complaining or some anti-bitcoin somebody says something, but yeah, we got taken down ostensibly for promoting, illegal services." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:29", "start": 3269.03, "text": "I, I think it, maybe it's one of those false reporting things or I don't know, some automated machine went wrong and stuff. So I don't know, I, I guess at the end of the day, it just-- You'd think" }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "54:39", "start": 3278.51, "text": "they After you've had like a few million views or whatever we have, you'd think they'd wanna check with you, but, they don't." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:48", "start": 3288.36, "text": "Yeah, that's a shame. But, yeah, you know, I guess, put, yeah, get, get the material out there and, yeah, get people learning about this thing, because as you said, the more you know, the more you, you know, you get into this. Absolutely. So," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "55:00", "start": 3299.87, "text": "yeah, I think that's right. And you, you can engage with me and our entire team," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "55:13", "start": 3312.88, "text": "Talk to our team, which is a really good place to hang out. You know, we also, the guy who started Cafe Bitcoin on Clubhouse, which is now on Android, so no more complaining that there's no Android. But yeah, it's a good place to hang out, talk some Bitcoin, learn some, a lot more really interesting scheduled rooms there. Now, I think we have ten different languages that have a, have a weekly room just talking about Bitcoin, answering questions and kind of debating the issues of the day. So it's a really good place to find us. Yeah Private client services, but I'll, I'll share it briefly and just say, you know, that's, it's going really well. I think the, I think we've surveyed our, our customers yet from this first cohort, but I would guess that the, it's definitely a five star product being able to have somebody experienced really talking to you about Bitcoin. So, you know, if you're looking to move your family office into Bitcoin or, you know, your company or something like that, swanbitcoin dot com slash private, and we just hired our second person for that unit One of my favorite Bitcoiners to listen to on Clubhouse, so he's joined Steven Lubka as the, as the two guys kinda running things for Swan Private, so bullish on that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:22", "start": 3382.26, "text": "Awesome, man. Well, thanks for joining me today. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "cory_klippsten", "time": "56:25", "start": 3385.02, "text": "my pleasure. Thanks, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:27", "start": 3386.55, "text": "So I hope you enjoyed the episode, and for those of you attending Bitcoin twenty twenty-one, I hope you guys enjoy the conference. I'm a bit disappointed and, unhappy that I can't make it myself. I've obviously been trying to get out, but unfortunately, this is Prison Island, Australia, and But hopefully I can get out someday, sooner or later, and start attending some of the different Bitcoin conferences or at least maybe next year, we'll see how things go. So you can find me at stephanelivera dot com. Thanks, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }