{ "episodeId": "SLP285", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "jeff_booth": { "name": "Jeff Booth", "role": "guest", "tag": "JEFF" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 9.17, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast. So have you thought about what it looks like if Bitcoin builds up as this alternative system while the fiat system is extending and pretending? Well, I chat with Jeff Booth about this. So Jeff re-joins me on the show. He's the author of the excellent book The Price of Tomorrow, and he is a technology entrepreneur and author. This show brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Swan Bitcoin holds a deep conviction that Bitcoin is the future of money. Swan's aim is to help you maximize your position in this dominant digital monetary network. As a Swan Private client, you will have unlimited access to their team, strategic resources, and commitment to Bitcoin education. 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On the other hand, if you need some liquidity, you can collateralize your Bitcoin and borrow against it, and the best thing is you still hold one key in the two or three multi-signature. HodlHodl doesn't hold your funds. This is a peer-to-peer lending and borrowing platform. You set your own terms and you put up offers depending on how long you want to borrow or lend and the interest rate. Go to lend to get involved with Bitcoin mining, CompuS is an online marketplace making it easier for you to do that. You select an ASIC and you select a facility that has been vetted by the CompuS team. We've heard for years mining's only profitable if you're investing tons of money, but now with CompuS, everyone can tap into economies of scale. You can get access to reasonably priced hardware and cheap industrial power rates. The residential rates many of us have aren't going to be very competitive. If you're unsure about how to get started, they've got hardware and hosting. Bundles. You don't need advanced technical knowledge, you can quickly get started mining Bitcoin today. Go to compassmining dot io and find out more. Jeff, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "02:43", "start": 163.43, "text": "thanks. Great to be here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:45", "start": 164.89, "text": "So Jeff, you're back in Canada. I saw all the photos from Bitcoin twenty twenty-one. I'm really, I'm, I'm feeling so much FOMO that I missed out on it. Tell us a little bit about, you know, what the experience is like and where, where your, where your head's at with Bitcoin these days" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "03:04", "start": 183.52, "text": "the, the experience was, something that's h-hard to even put into, into words. It was, I, I, I, I would left the feat-- I left the place thinking, \"This is what it looks like when people aren't manipulated by money. this is the best in human nature coming out.\" And, and so, it, it was, it was, it was truly humbling to be a part of it, and, and that, and that community. Truly humbling. Like," }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "03:33", "start": 213.26, "text": "The, the type of people I met and everything else, across the board, it was just, it was amazing experience." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:38", "start": 218.39, "text": "Yeah, that's really cool, and I think it just sometimes it feels like stepping into the future, right? Because when you're there, everyone's there, able to transact in Bitcoin and Lightning straight away, and, yeah, everyone's just doing everything over Lightning, and you really, you feel like you're in the future, because we feel like we're able to do this now, those of us in this world, those of us Bitcoin people, and it's like" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "04:03", "start": 242.9, "text": "So yes, that. And when you, when, when you're around a whole bunch of people that, that are first principle thinkers, that are, kind of deep across philosophy, a whole bunch of different, different pieces, and have really chased this to the ground and understand where the, where, where, where the world's going and everything else, th- those people are accountable. They're, they're learning all the time. They're, they're, quite honestly, like it blew my mind, what I got from the experience of, of just being Wonderful people. Yes, complete different cast of characters, crazy. You could call me crazy though too. But, but, the, but, but at the core, something that was, really sound across everybody. So it was, it was, it was, it was a really wonderful experience." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:50", "start": 290.06, "text": "Yeah, that's really cool. And so were there any points where you thought your thinking shifted, like that someone, someone was giving a talk or there was a panel, were, were there any points in your mind that actually shifted or you, you thought Yeah, that's actually a new learning that I took from, you know, this recent few weeks." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "05:07", "start": 306.89, "text": "Yeah, probably not a new learning on the core thesis on, on Bitcoin or anything there, but more, how fast this was moving, how fast it was-- So I would be lying if I said that I thought anywhere in my playbook that El Salvador would come on now and Jack would bring, bring a country on. So that's, so, so that, so that was new. it, it, it happened-- That's happening faster than- Than I thought, and so the, adoption of Lightning and everything else and people actually seeing what this means is moving faster than I thought, and so all different types of kind of thought around where, where that goes, but no, generally the thesis at nothing changed there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:48", "start": 347.89, "text": "Of course, and with the El Salvador adoption, I mean, there's been no shortage of commentary on that, but I think it's also interesting that, well, legal tender laws are one thing, but it's also about having a new group of people who become hodlers, who are holders, and I think that is an interest Interesting aspect, and w- it'll be, obviously, this is like historically unprecedented, right? So we're gonna see over the next few months, we are going to see how many people actually take it up, how many people start holding, and, you know, there's that aspect of merchant acceptance of Bitcoin, but then also how many of those people then go on to become orange pill hodlers, right?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "06:22", "start": 382.28, "text": "And I'm not expecting specifically El Salvador to change the momentum specifically on Bitcoin price anytime, soon. what I am expect- and this is what's just- It's really, it is reinforced over and over again. It is, it is super difficult to stop technology that empowers human beings, because you have to lie more to be able to stop, you have to deceive. And so, so this technology that's at the core of this, that does that, is bringing on more and more users faster and faster and faster. Yes, some of them will hold, some of them will come on and then think about it, oh, it's an altcoin or something like that that, that does it, and then they'll do a loop and come right" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "07:03", "start": 422.86, "text": "This means, I don't think it can be stopped now, not that the war, war is going to get any easier, but the advantage is now, on Bitcoin side, because you have two, and this is right, we've already talked about this, this is out of, out of my book. You have one side, you have technology that's driving us one way, trying to drive prices down, and the only way to, to essentially stop that is concentrate control in government more and more and more, unfortunately, lie to be able to do it, Stealing from people, more and more and more to concentrate, to, that concentrates wealth and power on one side, but as we get further and further away from that delta, and one, one system is moving this way, the, the system is feeding back both sides. So one system has to have more and more corruption and more lies to protect it, and one system is mov- and one system is really the truth showing all the time. That thing is causing more people to look and say, \"What's, what is this? \" Whereas they might've been totally opposed to Bitcoin. And not wanting to look at it. Now they're starting to realize that their entire system they live in is based on a fraud, and they're starting to come out. And so once that starts to happen, it just, it reinforces on itself and it reinforces on itself, and that's what, I think that's what's happening." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:17", "start": 496.71, "text": "Yeah, it's a really good comment there around the corruption and the lies that are required to sustain the fiat system. And it's interesting because we look at some of the art economists and the, the Bitcoin haters out there, and they will constantly be having to backped It was only for drug dealers, oh, it's only for crypto anarchists, libertarians, it's only for cypherpunks, it's only for small companies. Now they're saying, oh, it's only for small countries, right? And they were saying, oh, it's not legal tender anyway. Well, now it is, right?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "08:45", "start": 524.93, "text": "And now I play that forward. And so a lot of these things that there's a lot of people outside of Bitcoin that still believe that noise because you're caught in a system that reinforces it all the time. All the news media reinforces it all the time" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "09:03", "start": 542.94, "text": "way down to the ground. They're just parroting what they've thought from somebody else, and so there's a bunch of people even in that world who are becoming, coming, moving over. I think what causes the most pain in the Bitcoin community is the people that know and say it anyways, right? That they know for sure it's all based on a lie and it's all around, power. Privately, I got-- and I won't say who, but it's somebody that is fairly well known on a, on a direct, Twitter exch-- on a DM exchange That camp and talking about why it needs to be an altcoin, so essentially he could control the rules. And I thought, what hypocrisy? What complete hypocrisy? and so for me about with Bitcoin is it solves that by removing control of ego around people, it solves that, that, that issue and forever, or hopefully forever. That's a big deal. It's a huge innovation, and I think people underestimate what that impact means. It means-- It doesn't mean that society isn't going to, like, if you- You took the anarchists on one side, the, and if you said it's all citadels, I think that that really scares people in the existing system and makes them worried about what Bitcoin looks like, because they would think in that it's just a transfer of power from these bad people, but the truth is what the anarchists don't see as well, they're measuring government by the size of government today and all the fraud in government today, when the system itself would change that, government as a byproduct would have to move fraud above the line, right? And, and, and- Tell the truth, and it would have to get way, way smaller as a result, and the world would look very different. So these opposing forces are getting worse and worse. And then when you think about a whole bunch of byproducts of the opposing forces, when you just think about in a personal relationship, Stephen, if you trusted somebody and they deceived you and they completely lied to you for their own personal gain, would you trust them again?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:56", "start": 656.06, "text": "Yeah, of course not, yeah." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "10:57", "start": 657.32, "text": "Of course not. So, so as p- so what's happening is when, and then there edge case theories about what, what the system is doing and these people are doing to manipulate further away, and a whole bunch of Bitcoiners end up looking like they're wearing tinfoil hats on a whole range of issues because you have mistrust in the money layer. And once you have mistrust in the money layer, as a consequence, you have to have mistrust everywhere else. And so, so, so now if somebody that is manipulating money is telling me one thing, well, I know it's a lie. Am I going to trust them on anything? And so, so, A whole bunch of what people are jumping around in around society, around these, all these kind of edge cases and conspiracy theories are actually a result of that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:42", "start": 702.13, "text": "Yeah, so I think it's, part of it is also to your point earlier about people trying to protect the system or at least create an altcoin where they can be the king of their own little land. It reminds me as well of people who get ideologically committed to certain things, like one example, and it's quite unfortunate in some ways because Steve Hanke is one example of this kind of guy, like he's- He's meant to be a free market economist guy, but at the same time, every time there's a problem in one of the developing nations, he is out there talking about why they need to have a currency board and go to the US dollar. And anytime he bring, you bring up Bitcoin, he's like, \"Oh, it's a speculative asset, and oh my God, it's gonna die.\" And it's like, aren't you meant to be pro freedom, pro, you know, giving people a choice instead of mandating this whole currency board, US dollar, et cetera? There" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "12:33", "start": 752.9, "text": "Knowledge at all costs, even the truth, even, even what happens. Because let's investigate that for specifically, because when you see El Salvador, a lot of people in the traditional media went highest crime rate, all of this, all of this nonsense and everything else, with very little understanding that crime is a second order derivative of people not being able to pay their bills because of a shitty economy. Even if you have a US currency, and a US currency requires-- so their labor is just as expensive as US, how would they ever- How would they ever compete? So you have a whole bunch of crime sitting in a system, because people are, are forced to a life of crime to pay for their fa-family and everything else, and then we bias that and we say those are bad people. People aren't bad or good, like across all of us, we have good and bad and everything else, and if the system forces us, the system forces us to that side, it's just human nature, and that s-- and that system all around the world forces people, forces many people into a life of despair and crime. Time and everything else. So it's a system problem, it's not a people. People are rational actors in a broken system. And, but again, what Stephen's saying, what, what, who did you say again? P- Steve" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:44", "start": 823.87, "text": "Hanke is one of the examples. Steve Hanke, yeah. He's" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "13:45", "start": 825.15, "text": "misjud- he's actually misjudging the ca- the second order symptom from the root cause. And Bitcoin fixes these things. It put-provides a, it-provides a free market system around the world that solves these issues at its" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:59", "start": 839.02, "text": "root. Perhaps famous or, you know, influential in some other field, and then they start talking about Bitcoin, and they're getting it really, really wrong. And then, to add, you know, to add to that, they often have an ego about it, and they think-- They get offended when people come back to them and say, \"No, actually, that idea was already tried, and it failed for X, Y, and Z reason, and that's why it's not a thing in Bitcoin. Bitcoin is this. You'll need to, you need to humble yourself a little bit.\"" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "14:33", "start": 873.02, "text": "Bitcoin that want it to be about them, and it's not about them, it's about a monetary layer that removes that from the system. So that's what's so important, and that's actually what's critical around some of the best bitcoiners. It also, I gotta be careful here, create some of the toxicity as well, and it's not, I've actually funny enough, I've come way more on side to understanding the toxicity because when you understand something that people other don't see, and you're constantly barraged by a bunch of misinformation, a lot of times you become toxic. Or If you fi- or if somebody becomes a hero of the community and then can manipulate results as beca- beca-because they're a hero of the community, you don't want heroes of the community. You want people advocates of this that then hopefully just kind of move back into, to bring more people on because it's better for you, that's what you want. So I totally understand why somebody with an ego where it's, it's all about them, is repelled, like they're killed by this community." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:31", "start": 931.3, "text": "Yeah, it's a challenging thing because in some- In a sense, the ego is what pushes us to actually work hard and produce and be productive or really good at explaining things or really good at, you know, doing a Bitcoin business. So that can be a good thing in that way, but then on the other side, on the flip side, it can be a downside if people let it get ahead of, get the better of them, and then they start thinking it's all about them. And obviously, in Bitcoin, we have this idea that there's no person who speaks for Bitcoin, but we can advocate it, and you might be a well-known Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "16:03", "start": 962.86, "text": "Already fought before I even understood Bitcoin. No, I understood it early on, but I was too busy in my business to be able to really dig deep. So a lot of these wars in former heroes that tried to take the network and make it about them and create a different altcoin so that they could control it, have always, or, or, or have been fought and Bitcoin keeps thriving throughout it. And I think that's actually the core in this. I-- so I totally understand why it's not about an individual person, it has to be about the community. but for new people that are in, in making rules for other people. It's a harsh, it's a harsh reality. It's a, it's a harsh, harsh reality." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:40", "start": 999.55, "text": "Yeah, exactly. And so we are seeing a lot more people coming into Bitcoin, and I'm anticipating, I mean, personally, I'm anticipating a lot more people coming in over this next six months or so, and we're seeing moves being made, right? So, for example, Michael Saylor just is, I think as we speak, he's probably doing that, five hundred million dollar buy, and he's also come out" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:03", "start": 1022.86, "text": "Strategy shares stock issue so that then he can buy more Bitcoin with it. And so I'm wondering, do you have any thoughts on that?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "17:10", "start": 1030.43, "text": "So I love what Michael Saylor is doing. I love, so he has a thesis. He is, he is all in. His existing company, if you look at the returns and what that would look like, it's pre-Bitcoin and what he's doing in Bitcoin two radically different stories. for twenty-two years, it returned almost nothing, and now it's returning a, a staggering amount, and he knows where this is, is going So I think that everybody should put every dollar of wealth into it might be a, might be a bridge too far. I understand why you'd want to, and that's a risk-return sort of scenario, and I, and I think b- I don't think anything could beat Bitcoin going forward. But what if I was wrong? And so I just leave that tiny, tiny possibility, what if I was wrong, so that I wouldn't want everybody doing everyth- everything they ever had in, into it. And then you have to ask yourself, how much do you really need? If you had one Bitcoin Twenty-one hundred or so billionaires in the world today, there's forty-nine million millionaires. If you had one Bitcoin, you have more than most people could ever have. There's not enough Bitcoin for everybody to-- So how much do you really need in the new world? So that leverage and everything else, again, 'cause we're just as likely, if we're, if human beings are biased into we need more and more and more, then if that's true for all humans, and it's probably true for us too, and so we could easily get something and say, \"Leverage, leverage, If we win that bet, then we're-- does it make a difference if you're point five to point two, in the richest part, part, part of the world, is that gonna make a difference in your life? And so I, I just think about, so what he's doing, I completely understand it, and I have a huge, wow, and, and he's good for the community, and he's good for advocating for, for, for what, for, for what this is, and I hope he makes trillions. Should everybody go" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:03", "start": 1143.12, "text": "Using the system against it, right? It's like the judo move, because in some ways, stocks are getting bid up and up and up because obviously all the cheap money that's flowing out there because of fiat money, as we've mentioned on the podcast many times, and then in some sense, this is helping turn that in favor of, you know, the-- in favor of the person acquiring more bitcoins, because they're, they're sort of saying, okay, fine, you're just gonna bid up the prices of the stocks, well, we're gonna issue some more stocks and then use that to" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "19:33", "start": 1173.24, "text": "For Michael Saylor and his shareholders in this, I think it's a brilliant, I think it's a brilliant move, and how much, and how much he's brought, knowledge of what's happening and from, from the structure because of that move, that people keep on biting on and keep on doing it, and he wins every time, and so do his shareholders as a, as a result, it's brilliant. So, so, and, and again, as he's doing it, you're bringing, that's what kind of what I said, when a system" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "20:03", "start": 1202.9, "text": "To then, then you're bringing more people, wait, is this what's happening? And more people are starting to understand that, starting to understand that game." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:11", "start": 1210.57, "text": "Yeah. And I guess part of that plays into this idea that, now of course, you know, if hyperbitcoinization happens too quickly, well then, yeah, that could be-- and we spoke about this the last time, is that that could be a real issue. But at the same time, it could also help wash away some of the problems of the current system. So it's kind of like a balance there, because" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:33", "start": 1232.9, "text": "It, it might help people, get away from the fiat problems and stop the fiat, at least start this process of fixing society. So it's kind of like, how do we kind of manage that transition? Not that you or I can manage it ourselves, but in terms of how can we help people?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "20:46", "start": 1246.33, "text": "That's actually why I love places like El Salvador and a whole bunch of Nigeria and a whole bunch of other countries that are starting to really take this seriously, because it's bringing on hundreds of thousands and millions of people into this new economy at a rate that's increasing faster and faster and faster. But it, it's, it'd be impossible, it's really hard to see that stopping with all of the innovation, so it should keep on expanding. And that's-- and, and so what you want, what i-ideally you want in the, the Bitcoin is this to be broadly held." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:16", "start": 1275.97, "text": "Yeah, and that's right. And I think that's a very important point you raised there about being broadly held. It's a very important word because a lot of people get overly attached to the idea of, \"Oh, I can, where can I spend this Bitcoin? What merchants will accept it?\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:33", "start": 1292.9, "text": "Brilliant. He's been an astonishing mind and astonishing explanations of why you should think of it as a reserve asset, you should be trying to hold it, and the most important part is getting people out there. Of course, being able to spend your Bitcoin matters too, but holding is probably the thing that most advances this process, and I think Michael Saylor and others have helped. And so I guess then the question is, who do you think follows next? Do you have any ideas on, what other kinds of people are coming?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "21:59", "start": 1318.58, "text": "On that chessboard, it's hard to, like, because Probably twenty different countries that could be next, and I think they're gonna fall like dominoes as you, as you start to, do this. I think the IMF is scared, I, and they sh- rightfully should be, and I think you're gonna get some pushback, pushback here, but it's not gonna be enough to stop it. So, so, so, yeah, and if they really tried to stop it, it would move underground and it would keep going, just like, countries that have stopped, tried just, tried" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:33", "start": 1352.86, "text": "That's been the story that apparently even with places like Nigeria, because, yeah, yeah, Pakistan, great example as well, because pa- basically, yeah, they try to sort of regulate or slow, put the brakes on this thing, but then it just, all these people start using it peer-to-peer and you just, you just can't really stop this thing. So it's-" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "22:51", "start": 1370.54, "text": "I said, I said that to a politician in Canada and I said, \"Listen, if, if government came after this in a big way, I know what I'd just get on a plane, I'd take my" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "23:03", "start": 1382.9, "text": "A signal that you're controlled by the system and you can't get out. In fact, this is connected to something I don't think I've ever said this on a podcast, but I've thought a lot about, recently. Our property rights themselves and our infatuation about owning a home, a derivative of a system that has to leverage us into control, so, so that you'd put a thirty-year mortgage and you're locked into a system for the, that, that makes the government bigger and bigger and bigger. And so when you think about prop-property rights through that lens, not, not In that system. But when you think about that, it's, you can't, you can't take the property with you, and the property can pay tax at a different rate or it can be taken from you at some, at some point in the, in the future. Bitcoin is, is literally the only property right, that type of right, that has ever existed that can't be taken from you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:51", "start": 1430.86, "text": "Yeah, that's a great point you make there, Jeff, because, and it, it may not be that there's like a dark, you know, boardroom with all the evil people in the Kind of push it in that direction, right?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "24:05", "start": 1445.15, "text": "And, and then, and then you start out with something that might look like you could buy a home early on and you needed twenty-five percent down payment or fifty percent down payment, and you could only take a mortgage for ten years, and then fifteen years, and then twenty years, ten, twenty-five years, and then thirty years, and the mortgage, and the amount of money that you took to be able to buy that home, all leveraged, which actually cascaded into a system of control around housing that felt good for, that, that you You into a s-i-i locked into a system, not realizing that you'd become a slave to the system, that you're working t-two jobs, that you're working everything else to be able to have a house that was really a property right to make sure the system design kept working. And it's just an interesting, again, not bad people, not anything a-a-al else, but the design of a system that actually created that and made people not even realize that they were stuck, and they would do anything to get more stuck in a system so they could have a home. So that they could, they could be more, more of a slave in that system. I, I, that sounds edgy and everything else, but it's just, it's worth exploring, right? It's worth exploring 'cause that's what that system does, and you can't take your property with you. So it could later on be taxed, it could be taken at a different rate, it could be everything else. And so when I think about Bitcoin compared to that system, it's a no-brainer." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:27", "start": 1526.72, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. CoinKite dot com are the creators of my card. So if you have still left your coins on the exchange or you want to upgrade your security, check out the cold card. 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The two plates are facing each other to hide those seed words. It can be locked with a padlock. It's got a tamper-evident seal, and you get an automatic center punch provided. And just Products, it's made from stainless steel, it's fireproof, rustproof, and waterproof, so make sure you or your loved ones can access your bitcoins if an accident occurs. Go to ciphersafe dot io and use the code livera to get a discount. Back to the show. Absolutely. And so even with housing, because that's often been part of the, the Great American Dream, the Great Australian Dream. I know Canada has a crazy-- well, certain parts of Canada obviously have crazy housing markets. even here in Australia, it's like a huge property cult. You gotta own a property, and then what happened is, you know, what the deal that, say, the baby boomer generation and maybe some of the Gen X people, the deal that they got is much like the multiple of their income that they had to pay to buy a home. Home was much, much less than what it would be for, say, a millennial or a Gen Z, and many millennials and Gen Z people are basically, they're kind of checking out of that system almost because they feel like it's not even in their reach anymore or they're like having to really reach and go leveraged to the hilt to even have a chance, right? And it becomes, yeah," }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "28:34", "start": 1714.24, "text": "you know this from my book, but again, this lies into corruption of money against the natural order of things. So, so, but it's why we get confused. So, so in the Two hundred and fifty trillion dollars of debt to run a global economy of eighty trillion thereabouts. And so, so you think about two hundred and fifty trillion dollars and you go, \"Wow, that's a big number. Could that ever be paid back?\" But on further investigation, you realize a hundred and eighty five of that two hundred and fifty trillion came in the last twenty years. So, so now just ask yourself, what would housing be, be worth without a hundred and eighty five trillion of stimulus over twenty years? And you'd see the answer. The, the system itself that's driving the ho-housing" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "29:18", "start": 1758.21, "text": "it's all connected to the same system that's leveraging, essentially making your dollar worth more and, and trapping you onto a net, into your time, into being a slave for wages on that debt to be able to get that property right, to be able to stay in the system, while it's getting further and further away from-- It's, it's no real, it's not even close to what the real market should look like. it's all an illusion based on the printing of money or the manipulation of money." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:45", "start": 1784.69, "text": "Yeah, and I'll tell you what, one Well, it's like bear markets are illegal. Property bear markets and stock markets are illegal, right? As soon as it starts to dip, it's become a political football, right? It's become a thing where they will, you know, they don't want-- they've, they've bet their life on it, they've bet their life savings on these properties and stock market to some extent, and so they don't want to see it fall. So now they'll, you know, the government will try to lower, juice the economy again, lower the interest rates, and keep the party going." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "30:09", "start": 1809.26, "text": "Let" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "30:17", "start": 1816.77, "text": "Anything else, but let's imagine it's not a whole bunch of, let's just give the benefit of the doubt that they're doing what they can. What would you do?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:23", "start": 1822.93, "text": "Well, it's, yeah, it's, it's a difficult situation. Obviously, I mean, knowing what I know, I'd be all about, you know, Bitcoin standard, all this, but obviously, to, the point of your question is assuming, you know, you don't have that option. Well, they're probably just gonna have to try to-- and I think in practice, this is what they are doing" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:47", "start": 1846.79, "text": "And in the end, it just ends up being a very substandard outcome." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "30:50", "start": 1849.59, "text": "Yeah, so, but it's, it's worse than that. So you have, so now imagine two lines like this. Thirty years ago, you would have, you, you would have had from technologies, call it a one percent disinflationary power. And so, so interest rates were lowered and lowered to try to outrun, prices coming down. And why? Because if prices came down, debt gets more expensive and get, has to be reset. You have colossal wipeout. Everything just keeps on-- That, except for counterparty risk, there's no gold backing it, it's just the credit is the problem, and the cred-- and, and, and, and that debt getting more expensive just cannot happen in that system. So thirty years ago, you had, I'm, I'm just calling it, one percent negative de-- disinflation because of that. And so what central banks did is tried to stop it by lowering interest rates and lowering them again, lowering them again, lowering them again. You were running out one line, deflation wanted to move this way, and one line had to move the" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "31:47", "start": 1906.79, "text": "And bit debt hinges and causing credit crisis of, two thousand eight, caused by the housing crisis of two thousand eight, that you paper over. And remember, five hundred billion at that time and marches on Wall Street, breaking capitalism and everything else, it was just a function of what we're talking about. And now the numbers are five trillion and ten trillion, and they have to be twenty and thirty trillion in the future. And the further and further out from that point you go, you're further and further awa- away from the devi- from the truth. So, oh, here, the Allowed deflation to happen today, every single bank would collapse, every, every government would collapse, every institution would collapse, because it would keep spiraling. You would have a deflationary spiral that would keep going until everything reset. And so that's, that's actually-- so it's not bad people, it's a bad system that they're caught in, that they don't know how to get out of. What, what I'm-- what I was so frustrated with after writing my book, there hasn't been one person, one person in all that's actually given a, that a real cre- You're wrong. Like they're-- because, and so what I wanted to do with writing the book is start, because when, as an entrepreneur, when you understand the problem, all of the energy goes into the solution, right? And you, you think, okay, how do I solve this? And looking around, I really thought, okay, the, the book would be a impetus to try to, how do, how do you solve this? And all I've seen is a system protecting itself and getting worse and worse and worse. And so, so Bitcoin becomes the solve for that, Itself. But even on, on, on a central bank, can you imagine if the US came today, I'm not saying it's happening in the future, and openly said, \"We're moving to Bitcoin standard,\" everything does the same thing that I just said, everything just collapses. So, so you almost have to pretend more and keep the system going as, as in the background, people are moving to a new standard. a-and, and that's actually why I, I, on, on Bitcoin, I think it's the, the, the best path or potentially the only path for Peaceful transition to where we're going." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:49", "start": 2028.71, "text": "Yeah, right. So it's like exten- like, what's the saying? Extend and pretend, right? That's what you hear some people say about the Fed and whatever macro and things like that. And so, yeah, maybe at some level, that's, that's essentially what's gonna happen, right? The, the fiat side, they're gonna try to keep the party going as long as they can. Meanwhile, anyone who's smart is gonna be buying Bitcoin and hodling Bitcoin, and hopefully, when the dust settles, we've got, you When the dust settles, then hopefully we'll be, you know, living in a more sustainable, long-term sustainable future on a Bitcoin standard where things are more honestly priced and we have a more honest system, right?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "34:27", "start": 2067.21, "text": "That's right. So there, with where technology is going, you must, not, not a guess, you must have a digitally native currency that allows for deflation. Every, every single other path besides what I just said results in a concentration of wealth and power. And if you play the other scenario faster, and I'm including all, every- Bitcoin in there? Why I wouldn't ever buy one isn't because you couldn't make some money into it, it's a bigger deal than that, because, because I do understand why you'd want, why somebody else would want a centralized control. I totally get it. But Bitcoin might be the last chance for humanity to avoid that trap. So if you, if you concentrate wealth and power through what we're talking about against technology moving the other way, technology is supposed to free your time, it's supposed to give you more for less, that's what it does. Any inflationary policy against that, That concentrates wealth and power as a byproduct, and once you start doing it, government has to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And can you imagine a world where you have government control, with artificial intelligence and robotics, and a very few, very small number of people controlling what's good for everybody else? What can be given to you can easily be taken away. And look at countries around the world that live in dictatorships and everything else, and you'll see the truth of what I just said. That's what the truth, that's what it looks like, I believe, if we don't" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:47", "start": 2147.23, "text": "Right, and to touch into that particular thread as well, surveillance coins, also known as central bank digital currencies or CBDCs in the popular, you know, in the corporate press, they're all on about this, right? And so that may be the vector for exactly what you're saying, and who knows, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "36:04", "start": 2163.66, "text": "It's just like it's, it's gravity. We have two different operating systems, and to run-- to-- so I understand what they're trying to do. So they're pushing up inequality. So if they print a bunch of money and real estate prices go up, And a whole bunch of people lose out on that. The people that lose out because of manipulating money think it's the people that were, that got rich off the real estate or technology companies, and they go to government and they say, \"Give us more money. Prices are held-- so rents are higher than they should be because of that same thing and everything else.\" And so then government says, \"Yes, because you're the populist movement, you have more votes, we'll, we'll print more money to give to you,\" not realizing that you're actually stealing from them to do it. and Time, because they'll vote for the short term benefit, rat-- and, and not, and miss the fact that really what they're doing is concentrating power in few hands by, by result of the short term." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:57", "start": 2217.28, "text": "Yeah, and if we don't, successfully make the case, I mean, I don't see it like, I see it like Bitcoin is going to win, right? It's because, like, it's, it's just kind of that's the way, that's the direction it's going to go, but for the-- there will be an impact for people who don't correctly" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:17", "start": 2236.81, "text": "Could control people. They could say, \"Okay, we're gonna give you this Stimie, but you're only allowed to spend it on this kind of food or this kind of thing, because in our infinite wisdom, our technocratic overlords have decided that you must live in the pod and eat the bugs and all this, you know, stuff, and they will make your life contingent on your compliance and your papers, please.\"" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "37:36", "start": 2255.5, "text": "Yeah. So, and, and once you see what's, what's happening here, kind of on both systems, and you see, Bitcoin truly is about empowering people, I wish this wasn't true, but it's about power over other people, dominion over other people. And, and most of what you'll see in Bitcoin is nobody wants dominion over somebody else, right? They, they, they want a network that provides fair rules and everything, that, that, everything else. Yes, a whole bunch of people are gonna get rich over, b-b-that were in earlier. Yes, a whole bunch of people, so it's not just for wealth for your family or anything else, it's way bigger than that. But, but the real battle is about Other people. That's the, the-- To me, that's the de- that's the difference." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:20", "start": 2300.05, "text": "Right. And becoming a Bitcoiner is actually learning that difference and then actually being out there trying to educate or build or develop or, you know, review code or some, in some way, contribute to this new world where we're trying to give everybody financial sovereignty as opposed to, like you said, dominion, controlling them and mandating what they may spend their money on, what they may eat, where they may go, where they may travel, whether they're on lockdown or not. All these things Sort of flows through into those other aspects of it, and I think, it's also interesting to see, because those of us who are kind of down here at the bottom of the rabbit hole, not, not, well, not the actual bottom of the rabbit hole, but those of us who are orange pilled and we're watching the people who are coming in and learning. And so one really interesting example is, Paul Tudor Jones, who I think last year he was saying, \"Oh yeah, one percent Bitcoin, allocate one percent Bitcoin,\" and now just recently he came out saying," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:17", "start": 2356.77, "text": "I'm gonna follow him after this." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "39:18", "start": 2358.15, "text": "Well, so, so h-here's, here's the thing on Bitcoin, and that's what it, it takes you, because once you see the truth, you can't understand why everybody else doesn't see it. Look at Michael Saylor. Michael Saylor, look at his tweet from before he found Bitcoin, a couple years before he thought it was a scam, twenty thirteen. Exactly. Yeah. then it was, it's, he's only been in a year and he allocated a bit, a bit, then more, then" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "39:47", "start": 2386.97, "text": "Once you've seen this, that you always knew it, and the truth is you didn't, and neither did I, as you start to investigate it. And by the way, we need to take that, and so for humility to allow other people to see it, that's actually what's, I think, important to-- again, it's gonna happen anyways, but do you want more people to join the ride? And do you want broad-based ho-holders and understanding for humanity? I do, I personally do. So I try to act in a way that I think, okay, there's a whole" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "40:17", "start": 2416.77, "text": "positioned into a world that looks really different, and they have no clue. And so it's, it's not just that they're not, they're, they're, they're ignorant, it's not that they're, they're just, they're in a fog because they haven't seen it. In the same way, Michael Saylor might have been, in the same way I might have been, in the same way you might have been, Stephen, in the same way, and, and as you start to open your eyes to this, you gain more conviction, and you wanna bring others" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "40:47", "start": 2446.81, "text": "Going around the loop and Ethereum and all these other altcoins and everything else and thinking it's a, it's a, it's, it's a casino to coming back to bit, Bitcoin. Some people make that loop, some people don't, but, but, as they go through this, through this path." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:01", "start": 2461.44, "text": "Yeah, yeah, and I think the other interesting thing is that obviously people like Paul Tudor Jones are highly influential, right? So he's very wealthy, I think the Forbes estimate for him was like seven billion is his net worth, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:17", "start": 2476.77, "text": "What does that do to the conversation around, if we look on the mainstream kind of corporate press, financial, financial press, where they come out and say, \"Oh, Paul Tudor Jones said this about Bitcoin, and it gives you a property right,\" and then it, it, it starts that process for other people, and now his followers and other people who are reading those, those news articles might then also go on their own journey." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "41:37", "start": 2496.56, "text": "And like El Salvador and other countries, now it makes it okay to look deeper and what-- Okay, something's here. This sounds too good to be true. This sounds It, it, it sounds like it's getting more and more unstable and it's more and more of a fraud, it sounds more real. And that, so I, so be-behind the scenes, you wouldn't believe the number of people that I'm talking about in very, very influential places, and, beca- and so they'll all be a different level of path and everything else, but that's, that is what's, what's happening. And I have no problem doing that because what I'm saying is true. Yeah. Right. Happens to be true. It Put a whole bunch of stuff in, for me personally on Bitcoin, most of my wealth, kind of from companies and everything else, technology companies are kind of a byproduct of the other system. So for me personally on bi-Bitcoin, it's not, and, and, and I'm not trying to create a business in Bitcoin. I don't care if my book sells one more copy, doesn't, doesn't matter for my own personal wealth or family wealth. I care about this for a way bigger reason. And so, so this is, I, I think about it as a, a donation" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "42:47", "start": 2566.91, "text": "Hopefully makes the world better for my kids. And in a, in a per-- in a, in a perfect world, aft-- as, as, as more and more people to, to understand this, you just back out, ju- just, just b-because you don't need to be there anymore, 'cause the s-- the, the new system is taking over and it's, it's, it's, it's adopting. So if I could sculpt my own personal journey in there, that's what it would look like." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:10", "start": 2589.96, "text": "Yeah, and as everyone goes on their own journey, just Percent to five percent. Typically, as the price runs up, you start caring more about it and start like actually reading more into it and potentially putting more into it because you're like, \"Well, you know what? Actually, yeah, I think this thing is real. This thing is working. Like, it is, it is a new system that I could be a part of.\" And so then, I think the other question then is, you know, as we go towards the end of this year, there'll be a lot of new people coming in, but also a lot of those new people have not" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:47", "start": 2626.77, "text": "I'll tell you what, that is brutal. That is really, really brutal, and I'm not precluding that outcome happening again, right? I think it could happen again. You know, we might have a crazy run up later this year and then have an eighty percent drop again, and then people will be like, \"Oh, Bitcoin is dead,\" and all the same things. But, you know, I guess what's your view on that idea? How many, you know, people are gonna get wrecked in the next year or so?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "44:07", "start": 2647.48, "text": "And, and that's actually why long term holding, buy" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "44:17", "start": 2656.79, "text": "Now they're, now, and would teach that to lots of other, lot, lots of other, people. So, but it will happen. By the way, the, the, the vol- the upward volatility is actually a good thing. It becomes, it be- it, it becomes, antifragile. Becomes, so it, it, it, it literally, and, and every cycle, actually, have you ever heard, any, there is no bad news, right? For, for" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "44:47", "start": 2686.85, "text": "Every cycle brings more and more attention to this, to the SaaS class and people, get more and more curious about, about it. The volatility brings on more traders, right? That brings on more other people to be able to say, \"Okay, 'cause traders make a ton of money off volatility,\" that brings on other people to, in, in, in that, and the whole system underneath, actually, there's some of the beautiful game theory and design of every, everything into this that actually feeds back on that system, is the thing that makes it anti-fragile" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:17", "start": 2716.93, "text": "I guess maybe a bit more of a fun speculative question. You know, all the discussion around supercycles, where do you stand on this kind of, on this idea, on this notion? Do you think it's gonna happen, not gonna happen, or you don't really have a view?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "45:29", "start": 2728.7, "text": "Are you talking about this cycle being a supercycle? I suspect it's not gonna happen on this cycle. And not that it couldn't, but if I said the probabilities of it happening on this cycle, I don't think the probabilities are high on this cycle because there's a whole bunch of things Asset class general, so lots more people onboarded, but the existing, existing system could extend and pretend a long time. And on the way there, so, so today trying to inflate that, now when rates go up, which it's almost like it will remove accommodation and rate, rates will go back up. Good luck, 'cause the minute rates go back up, everything collapses and you see all the leverage exposed and you have that deflationary spiral. So you'll get a whole bunch of headfakes there. If, let's just imagine, forget the- Super cycle for a moment and say, and say, let's argue the other side. If central banks right now raised interest rates, Bitcoin, Bitcoin would collapse too, as everyone went raced to cash, feeling like a depression's coming and I need to have cash. And just like in March of, two thousand, twenty, twenty twenty, exactly. Same, same thing, same thing would happen. You'd be a race to cash, and every, every asset would-- Because the assets are, so out, out rate, it's just caused by printing, and it needs more printing So if you, if governments did that, you would have the opposite of the super cycle. But then after that, the governments would have to actually print way more and more, because if they kept that, if they kept that, it'd keep unwinding, banks would fail, everything else. They could go in and nationalize banks, maybe, but you'd have, you'd have a shit show. So on the other side, you'd have to have a massive amount of easing and a lo- a lot more to be able to keep the party going. So this game is gonna be played out" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "47:17", "start": 2836.81, "text": "rational act if somebody said they're not gonna pay you back in real dollars." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:20", "start": 2840.25, "text": "Yeah, that's, yeah, that's gonna be a problem. Would you buy their bonds? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "47:24", "start": 2843.63, "text": "Yeah, but you wouldn't buy their bonds. You sure wouldn't buy the, the bonds. You'd ta- you'd take their money and you'd buy, you'd, you'd buy rare earth minerals. You'd, you'd lock up the supply of where the world's going on technology, and you'd take, you, you would make sure critical assets, assets were locked up. So like, oh, where did that come from? And not realizing these are just signposts on, a, a world that will look like this naturally on the existing system. So what is likely to happen as a result of that is governments, how do they control you on that? They create a bigger enemy, right? It's not your fault that China took your jobs or this, or the, or, or this happened, and then look, they're, they're locking this supply out from you, trade barriers, barriers and everything else. So we're living in an interconnected system that we What we hear in the media and we'll think, \"Oh yeah, those bad people,\" when it's all a system that's actually most, mostly driving those, driving all, all of this. And so when-- and that's a long way around on the supercycle theory, but it, but what I would-- my, my base case is not this time on a supercycle, not that we couldn't see a rise to two hundred thousand this year on Bitcoin, not that then it would maybe more than colap-- than collapsing, but there's, the existing system isn" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:47", "start": 2926.99, "text": "aligned with you on that, I think it's, it's possible but unlikely this cycle, and to your points earlier about, you know, the signs were there all along, right? It's just that how the media or how the government will try to propagandize to try to, as you say, ex-extend, as we say, extend and pretend, there, there are all sorts of things that can be done there. And I guess one other interesting thing, I'm wondering if you've got any thoughts on this idea, is our, I guess, dependence on semiconductor chips," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:17", "start": 2956.77, "text": "That world, and we need, you know, obviously from a Bitcoin perspective, we need chips, mining, you know, mining, and just technology in general, right? Phones, cars, whatever, whatever you, whatever you need, we need these chips. And so I'm wondering, do you see that situation improving anytime soon, or do you see it like it's gonna take some time?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "49:35", "start": 2974.72, "text": "those factories take longer to spin up and pro- and production around, say, rare earth mines and everything else too. So some of these things take longer to spin up" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "49:47", "start": 2987.37, "text": "and some of the, some of the, in behind the scenes, those things are spinning up. So, there's no solve for it immediately, but, but the-- but supply and demand in a market, right? It creates, if, if you have these, these single point failures, the market typically solves it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:03", "start": 3002.96, "text": "Right. And as we're seeing, you know, some factories, and there's talk of factories being set up in other countries, and, hopefully over time, the Bitcoin miner demand for space in those, you know, Start to give, factory space to, you know, the Bitcoin mining manufacturing companies as well, rather than giving it all to, say, Apple as the tier one, et cetera. So that's an interesting dynamic that we'll see play out over the next few years, maybe, but I think the message then is really, it's, let's all strap in for the long haul. I'm strapped in for the long haul, and me too. Let's get ready. You know, it's not gonna be a, it's not gonna happen in, you know, two or" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "50:47", "start": 3047.31, "text": "but Stephen, what an exciting time to be alive. Oh yeah. I, it just, if you think about all of these different changes that are happening at light speed, and you think that for the first time in human, human history, that you could put money to be decentralized and, and, and not one person's control. 'cause gold wasn't, it was always the threat that it could be confiscated, right? This is actually the, this is potentially the first time in human history that you actually have this tied into where technology is moving and everything else. It's a super exciting time to, to, to be alive. Super, super exciting. And that's actually what I see in most of the companies I'm working in too. Like, you, to be able to work with, with, with companies, this isn't, in an early startup phase where, where, where investing your time or resources or money into that, that company, you, you can generate three hundred, four hundred times your money, on it and do good for humanity, feels pretty special. Feels, so- So, so, so the, the world's changing really fast, and the, and for curious people, that kind of aren't afraid of that change, that wanna explore it and say, where does this go? What do the new rules look like? What does that look-- Just, just, it's just abundance, abundance everywhere." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:02", "start": 3122.48, "text": "Yeah. So certainly we can be optimistic about the future if we have our eyes on the price and, focus on these things. So I think, probably a good spot to finish up here. So listeners, make sure you follow Jeff on Handle is Jeff Booth, and of course, check out his book, The Price of Tomorrow. Is there anything else you'd like to, shout out there just before we finish up, Jeff?" }, { "speaker": "jeff_booth", "time": "52:24", "start": 3144.07, "text": "No, it was just great seeing you again. I wish you were in Miami, but next time we'll have to get together." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:29", "start": 3148.52, "text": "Yeah, for sure. I'm gonna get out of here sooner or later, and I'll, I'll be traveling around soon. So thank you for joining me, Jeff. No, thanks. So you can get the show notes and the transcript over at my website," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:41", "start": 3160.98, "text": "stephan" } ] }