{ "episodeId": "SLP286", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "hector_rosekrans": { "name": "Hector Rosekrans", "role": "guest", "tag": "HECTOR" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.99, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. Have you thought about inheritance? What are you gonna do when you wanna pass your Bitcoin on to your heirs or your family and your loved ones? Hector Rosekrans of Casa joins me to talk about this, and we talk about a number of things around securing our Bitcoin, self custody and custodial se- Solutions, how early it is in Bitcoin inheritance, Casa, Covenant, hardware wallets, and multisig and inheritance setups, will they standardize? This show brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Swan Bitcoin holds a deep conviction that Bitcoin is the future of money. Swan's aim is to help you maximize your position in this dominant digital monetary network. 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So you can tap into the economies of scale that CompuSt are helping provide for you and access reasonably priced hardware and cheap industrial power rates. Remember, for many of us We can't really profitably mine on our home residential power rates, so with CompuSt, you can access better power rates. So CompuSt offer hardware and hosting bundles, so you don't need advanced technical knowledge, you can quickly get started. Go to CompuStmining dot io to start mining Bitcoin today. Hector, welcome to the show. Hey, Stefan, how you doing today? Doing well. I know you've been talking a lot about, you know, securing your keys and doing some of this stuff, and I know you were keen to talk about inheritance, and I know this is A big thing for a lot of us as Bitcoiners, we think we're gonna live forever, don't we? Absolutely, yeah, yeah," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "03:22", "start": 201.98, "text": "we-- That's, that's the plan at least, but it's, it's gonna prepare for the contingency just in case. Yeah. So look, just for listeners who don't know you, tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, so, my, my name's Hector Rosekrans. I'm the director of client services at Casa. I've been in this role for, for two years now. A little bit of, a little bit of time in the industry before that, I actually got started here at, in the blockchain things at JP Morgan. so I, I, I like to point out I went from block chainner to shit coinner to bitcoinner. I'm really that's really, you know, kind of what's, you know, what, what kind of brought me to Casa is it's putting together the security side of things, the technology side of things, the economic side of things, like bringing all that together, was what really kind of brought me to Bitcoin. And yeah, helping people kind of solve the problem of self-custody, it's this technical challenge, but at the same time, it's, you know, it's, it's something that's really important to, to get right and to make" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:28", "start": 268.14, "text": "Yeah, that's great. And so I'm trying to keep the show accessible for new people, right? For new coiners out there, and a common thing I hear from people, even when I'm out at meetups and I'm talking to new coiners out there, they're, they're a bit scared about taking their coins off the exchange, right? They're like, \"I've got some coins,\" and I'll ask them, \"Hey, have you learned to self-custody?\" And they're like, \"Oh, oh no, I've still got that on the exchange, or And then slowly, as you get more comfortable, you know, you do these things for yourself, but it obviously takes a bit of work and practice, and it's not, it's not just something that comes for free, right? You have to put in the time. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "05:09", "start": 308.87, "text": "absolutely. You, you really, you do. and this is like, this is one of those places where I think that, like, that, you know, just, I, I lean on some of my military background is, you know, you learn to operate weapon systems. These are things that are incredibly" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "05:27", "start": 327.28, "text": "That are incredibly powerful, that, can grant you a lot of kind of capability and the ability to be the, you know, to exist in the world in a certain way. But if you don't understand how to use them, you can certainly hurt yourself. And I'll also be the first person to admit, I got a ledger, when I was getting into Bitcoin back in the day, I got a ledger, and that thing sat on my desk for months because I was terrified that I was gonna do the wrong thing. It's like, I wrote down the seed phrase, but I was like, Set it, wait, did I do like a small test transfer? I need to get those funds off. It's, it can be really intimidating. And that's like, that's really what one of, one of my biggest goals is, is as a Bitcoiners to make it more approachable and make it easier to do that and, and try to solve some of those problems from like a technical perspective, but also from a, from like a user experience perspective to just make it easier to do that, make it feel a lot more comfortable to like, to take that step and," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:24", "start": 384.16, "text": "take You know, for new listeners, that's definitely the ethos we encourage is that you take the time, you learn, and there are some basic tools and basic competence that you'll just, you'll just have to do. And I think going with your analogy there of it's a tool, and you need to learn to use it, and it's like you need to drill it, right? You need to be ready to use it so that way when the time comes, you know, exactly how to do it, you've done this process. You know, so what would be some of the, I And then, you know, and then going down that track as well of thinking about inheritance." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "07:02", "start": 421.81, "text": "Yeah, it's, it's really important, I think, to like have the right mental model on what a key is and how it works. And so, because once you kind of get that, everything else starts to fit into place. But, you know, the, the thing that kind of drives me crazy sometimes is our, the terminology we use. We say, \"Oh, yeah, it's my, my Trezor wallet, my cold card wallet that I'm, that I'm keeping my And that's great for a single sig, it's a pretty good mental model for single sig because, well, your Bitcoin's not really there, your Bitcoin's really on the ledger, on everyone's node in the network. Your key is on, is on that device, as long as you know your key's there, you need to be really careful with your key, you're in, you're in pretty good shape. But what a lot of people don't understand is then when you go to multisig, that now if you think that, you know, well, is my Bitcoin split up amongst all my" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "07:57", "start": 477.2, "text": "To break down, it's like, no, the device is just holding your key, your Bitcoin's in the cloud, and, you know, these devices, these devices are designed to just hold that, hold that key in one place. And the other thing here is that, you know, keys are just pieces of data, and they can be manipulated the same way any other device in the world can be manipulated. I love hardware devices, I love hardware wallets, because they exist to do one thing, they exist to keep that key on that device and never leak it out to the outside world. But when you ways to, you know, to keep those keys that have other trade-offs, other benefits, and also other costs to them. Like, you know, with, for instance, with, with Casa, with a number of, multisig setups, you'll use one or two hot keys as part of, like, your overall quorum. And that's a really bad idea if you have a lot of Bitcoin on your set, on like your, your, your one, your one key setup, because a hot key can be stolen. We get to multisig, what you Be leaked. But if it's only one key of your key set, what you gain from that is you gain that resiliency, you gain that, that redundancy. and so it's one of the reasons why I really think that more people should make the jump directly to multisig and not say like, \"Oh, I want to go single, single sig kind of in the middle. Single sig's a great way to go. It's a, it is a good way to get started. \" But if you go to multisig, there's actually a lot more flexibility that you have, which And understand it and set it up, but if you're willing to put in the work, you get a much-- you get yourself to a much better and much more knowledgeable position right off the bat." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:35", "start": 575.23, "text": "Yeah, interesting point there. So I think for a long time in this industry, the common advice has been, you know, start on, say, a phone wallet, small amount, and then maybe progress to a hardware wallet, and then maybe get a hardware wallet with a passphrase, and then go to multi-signature. But I guess what you're saying now is actually maybe we're starting to reach a point Sort of, you're making for people who are buying, you know, a certain amount, like I guess ab-above a certain amount, you should just go straight to multisig." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "10:04", "start": 603.85, "text": "I think that that's, that's pretty, that's pretty close. I mean, I wouldn't say skip the phone wallet part, because phone wallets are great. They're hot wallets, they're fast, they're easy. You can kind of try a lot of different ones, you can play around with it. Phone wallets are a great tool for kind of learning about how it works and getting comfortable with," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "10:23", "start": 622.74, "text": "with Start with very small amounts, but then once you get to the level that, like, okay, I do wanna hold this for a long period of time, that's where I think that, like, understanding how these different pieces kind of fit into the overall, overall security model can be a really, can be a huge benefit and ultimately something that, not only is, is safer, but also just helps you understand better what's, what's, what's really going on and what you're really doing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:49", "start": 649.4, "text": "Right. Yeah. And I think that is an interesting point as well around the Allowing you to be able to arguably travel in a way without risking all your coins in one go, because if you have the keys split up and you're traveling, then it kind of helps you in that aspect. but I guess probably one thing just before we get into that, so I guess just to talk through the idea around inheritance, right? As, as I calling back to what we were saying before, it's like we think we're just gonna live forever, right? And so at the end of the day, then for a lot of people who are just sitting on, say, a single Relying on the idea that their family or their, their parents or their daughter or their son will find that twenty-four word seed and ideally either know the passphrase or they have it written down somewhere and they know how to access it. And that's basically what most people, if I had to guess, that's probably what a lot of people are relying on, unless they've gone for, say, you know, for, for you guys with Casa or with one of my, my sponsors, Unchained Capital or with an actual custodian. So I guess what's your initial kind of take there Thinking about inheritance and how should we be looking to improve that?" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "12:01", "start": 720.71, "text": "Yeah, and it's, it's a great question. It's, it's really kind of an, an underexplored area. You know, there's, there's basically a lot of our family members are maybe not hardcore Bitcoiners. I mean, if my wife was as deep into this, this stuff as I am, you know, she would know exactly what the setup looks like, she'd know exactly where to go and find this stuff, she'd be, you know, she'd be like, okay, you know, Hector, Running this up, which node should I be, which node that you're running should I be plugging into? Like, well, don't run that one. But like, you know, most of our loved ones aren't quite as deep down the rabbit hole as, as, as we are. And so there's this point at which it's like, if we, you know, if our family finds themselves in a situation where we're not there to help them, they really can kind of be in a lot of trouble. It's like, you know, you may have been living a life where you're Can't find that hardware device if you, you know, you have three shots on that ledger PIN and you can't find where the PIN's written down. You know, you can be in a, in a situation where all that wealth is potentially at risk, and it's already a stressful time in, in anybody's life when you, when you lose a loved one. And so it's really important to, like, get this right, put a plan in place, and you also wanna think about it from the other side. You know, there's potential, you know, if you make it too Backdoors and introducing risk in, in your setup. And this is like where the, you know, the cool, technical, exciting flexibility of multisig actually turns into a really important use case. One of, one of many, but all kind of fit into this category of like, how do you make Bitcoin management easier and more comfortable in a lot of different, in a lot of different scenarios, in a lot of different cases? And inheritance is really just kind of one of the, one of the most obvious and most important ones I think to, to get right here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:56", "start": 836.44, "text": "Yeah, that's a hard One, because as you were saying, you wanna make it-- it depends on your situation, obviously. Everyone's situation is different, but you might be in a scenario where you don't want to give access now while you're still alive, and you want it to only trigger when you die, and so maybe you need to use a lawyer or you need to-- But some of us might also be in a scenario where, okay, you, you do trust fully your loved ones, and, you know, but you, you, you just need to make sure they have somebody they can call when they-- when something You've got to think about, well, if something happened to you, do your loved ones know who to call, who to-- Because here's the thing, if they aren't savvy and they just post online, \"Oh, hey, can someone help me?\" And then, guess what? All the scammers are gonna come and come for them and say, \"Oh, yeah, I can help you out. Just tell me your twelve words, right?\" Yeah." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "14:44", "start": 884.5, "text": "Yeah. And, you know, I, I've seen this on myself, like I've seen people posting things like this on, online," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "14:57", "start": 897.32, "text": "Full of people saying exac-exactly that, like, \"No, no, but really, but me, like, I work for, I work for this co-this company, and like, we, you know, we do this, do this for a living.\" But there's no good way to un-to know who to trust without, without kind of having the cultural knowledge that we've all, that we've all developed, ac-across this industry. And, and that's another real risk is that you find the wrong person, they could really steer, steer you in, in the wrong direction And that's why it's, you have to think about this stuff ahead of time. You have to put a, put a plan in place and make sure that, you know, they know what to do. keep that as simple as possible, you know, in terms of managing your relationships with your, your loved ones. You know, again, my, my wife is, you know, she's on password manager now, begrud- begrudgingly, it wasn't her favorite, it wasn't her, her favorite pro-project. Our marriage survived, I'm happy" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "15:45", "start": 945.22, "text": "to say" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "15:51", "start": 950.91, "text": "To address." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:52", "start": 952.01, "text": "Yeah, and it's a very good point there around long-term management, right? Because, you know, as we speak today, Bitcoin price is whatever, thirty thousand dollars US per Bitcoin, but if we're right about this thing, and it's literally millions of dollars, like ten million dollars per coin in ten years' time or whatever, that's a lot of money, and when you're gone, you wanna make sure that your family can still access that stuff. So, yeah, difficult, conversation and difficult thing to think about and talk about, but it's a necessary conversation for A little bit about the aspects there of using a lawyer and then using maybe a technical expert, like how should we think about that aspect of it? Like we might have to have a lawyer hold, you know, some way of accessing one of our keys, but then you might have somebody else who's like a technical expert for your family to go to. How, how do you think about that?" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "16:40", "start": 1000.5, "text": "Yeah, well, it's, it's a great question, and I spent a lot of time talking to a lot of lawyers about, you know, about this whole approach, you know, Casas' This was going to involve a lawyer in that process, essentially as a key holder. I mean, this idea, there's gonna be a bunch of lawyers out there, they're gonna wanna hold keys, it's gonna be good business for them, and it'll be kind of just a normal part of the estate planning process. They have a whole slew of regulatory requirements, they don't want that liability, and, you know, I have found a few lawyers who are willing to do that, but they tend to be, you know, they tend to be lawyers who are working for one client because that client point. And so, you know, if you have a lawyer who's interested in, in holding a key, that's great. Lawyers are great when it comes to estate planning and making sure all the legal, the legal stuff is exactly the way that you want it. But what they're not gonna be able to do is they're not gonna be able to give you the guidance to make sure that the actual custody, the actual control of those assets matches what you want to have happen. for that, you know, you're gonna have to either do it yourself with your key management or you're gonna have Work with a trust, a trusted friend who can kind of help you put the technical, the actual control side of it into place. And that's can be a pain, but the cool thing about that is, if you get it right, you know, and you do this right and you put in the work, it's actually a much better solution than even what, you know, you have with, you know, with the stock, you know, with the, you know, with the brokers that's gonna, you're gonna have to go through a third party to transfer those a-assets over. You do it" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "18:21", "start": 1100.95, "text": "theirs. They are directly in control of your family, they can never be taken, you know, no one else outside of that can ever, can ever take, take control of them. So it's a much better endpoint that you, that you can get to by, by thinking through some of this stuff ahead of time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:33", "start": 1113.44, "text": "Yeah, and so it strikes me as using services like, like what Casa have, it's occupying something of a middle position because it's like a hybrid, right? You're trying to get the best of both worlds in that sense of giving you and maybe your family or your heirs some Those bitcoins without relying on, you know, so much on someone else, right? You're not relying on a custodian to be able to do that. You can, you know, if, if everything goes right, you've kind of got it all within your family, and if something goes wrong, I guess in the Kasa case, Kasa holds one of the keys, right? So that's also where Kasa can help out there, and I think that's actually a good direction that the industry should go because as we mentioned before, you know, it's self-custody is so important to These big custodians, well, then it kind of goes against the point of, you know, Bitcoin as we would like to see it ideally. Of course, there'll be some people who use custodians, and, you know, okay, fine, but we wanna have a good number of people who are able to be self-sovereign, right?" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "19:36", "start": 1176.08, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. And again, this is, this is what I, what I really like about like the inheritance use case is that it's easier. It actually is easier to transfer assets like to your family when they're, when they're in Who, you know, will a, kind of provide that, you know, obviously holds a key and kind of manages a system that'll help you, you know, help you kind of permission this. But also just is somebody at the other end of the line who you've developed a relationship with as a company over the years, you know, who is then there and able to kind of walk, you know, walk your loved ones through this, this scenario. You know, to me, that's like, you know, that's one of the ways that I can have a client for life is" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "20:20", "start": 1220.35, "text": "if Kind of knows, and, you know, is a-- and is able to make sure and that they can walk through that process. To me, that's, that is such good business and the kind of business that, that we wanna build, and I think that the kind of business that a lot of people that are Bitcoin only want, want to build. I wanna see more people, you know, doing this, more people kind of taking on this like, you know, hold your hand, not your keys type approach to, to building, you know, to building with, within this industry" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:51", "start": 1250.85, "text": "Common mistakes that people make when they are, you know, doing this inheritance planning and the transition over aspect after somebody has passed. So, I mean," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "21:01", "start": 1261.19, "text": "the, the common pitfalls are really kind of embarrassing, honestly, because they're, you know, I, I've seen lawyers have come to me that I've talked to who say like, \"We don't do this because we had this one situation where, you know, we had a, you know, we had a, we had a seed phrase that was just like bouncing around our emails, and we're emailing it back and forth to each other, like What to do with this? Wow. Seriously, like, this is the level of-- This is what we're talking about, because no one wants to think about this and no one has really put in place a process. I think there's some people that do it, but yeah, as, as far as I know, you know, Cas is the only kind of productized like solution, and it took us a really long, long time to get to, what we felt was, you know, a very scalable and, you know, an actually usable approach for the vast, vast majority of Lawyers, however much money it costs to, you know, keep a single lawyer on, on, you know, on, on retainer for all your business dealings, it's just a really hard problem, and I don't think-- I think it's gonna be a big learning curve for the legal industry, I think it's gonna be a big learning curve for our, our industry, but frankly, like from what I've seen, it's still very early days in terms of having a good approach to this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:10", "start": 1330.08, "text": "Yeah, that's really rough. And the thing is, there will be, you know, Everything on a ledger, and it's just like a probably just a seed and a passphrase kind of setup. But those of us in the Bitcoin world are thinking very long term, and, you know, so that's why it's gonna, you know, you're more likely to be on a multi-signature setup if you've got a large amount of coin, and so then that necessitates really thinking through and being careful about it. But as you said, it's, it, it is extremely early, and so I can imagine maybe people with a lot of coin are just sitting on custodians or," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "22:49", "start": 1368.92, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. But again, you know, the, the flexibility isn't just that, like, you know, the flexibility of multisig really gives you a lot of tools to play around with here. And, and I'll kind of get into a little bit of the specifics about how, how we kind of manage this. So with Casa, you know, these are all our, you know, we only offer this at our premium tier, so it's gonna be a three of five account. Now on a three of five, that's gonna be three hardware wallets, different vendors, so that we So yeah, we used different vendors within that three. And we also have a mobile key, this was, I was mentioning it earlier, this is a hot key, it lives on your phone, it is backed up to cloud storage. Obviously, that's never something you'd wanna do with a lot of funds in a single sig setup, but because it's only one key out of the quorum, the resiliency and the redundancy and the backups and the availability, anywhere you can get access to, you know, land in a new country with the clothes on your back, buy a new iPhone, Really powerful and flex- and flexible tool just in terms of your, your overall, key management. So that's the mobile key, you know, basically, basically a hot key that's highly available, and then you have the Casa recovery key. So the way we think about it is, when you actually wanna go do an inheritance process, you're, you know, the, the beneficiary's gonna need to have a minimum of one hardware device, and we like to say, you know, if they have more, that's great, but let's make a plan to make sure they have access to that one hardware device and they have access to the seed phrase backup for it as well. And then let's work with them to figure out how to permission them and get them that mobile key, but only get it to them, you know, when, Away and Casa can basically permission access. We don't hold that key, it's, you know, we hold the decryption key for the encrypted key that's then held on the, on the server. That was, I may have said that, said that kind of fast, but the backup is encrypted on iCloud and then Casa holds the decryption key for it. So we're able to basically transfer control of the account over the beneficiary. That lets them get the mobile key as well. They basically either download it from cloud storage or they scan it from a QR code they printed out ahead of time. Two, Casa Recovery Key is number three, and now they can move funds to wherever the, wherever the next step's gonna be. But it's that flexibility that you get by being able to have the mobile key, being able to have the hardware key, and being able to have the Casa key, three very different security models All coming together in this scenario, and again, you know, we're kind of there to act as a, you know, as a check, make sure that, you know, make sure you really have, have passed away, so you're not introducing, you know, potential theft, potential backdoors, potential phishing attacks. Yeah, and there's also plenty of ways in which, you know, any of our clients can do this themselves with a more, you know, kind of more self-so, self-sovereign approach, where you're working through, you know, you're working through a To the seed phrases. But the approach that we wanted to take, we wanted to make sure it was, you know, it was well managed, that we were, we were using all the capabilities that we have as a company to the best of our ability to make it as smooth and se- and se- and seamless as possible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:53", "start": 1553.32, "text": "I see, yeah. And so in that approach then, is, does it still stay a three of five setup, but one of the keys now is held by your, I guess, your trusted beneficiary or your heir in that case? Well," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "26:06", "start": 1565.54, "text": "so, you know, and there But what I like to, you know, for most people, their most immediate beneficiary is most likely gonna be their spouse or someone that they live with, someone that they're very close to. And so you don't even necessarily need to kind of turn over a key to them, that's just, hey babe, it's the, you know, it's in, it's in the safe, here's the com- here's the com-combination for the safe, this is the one key we keep at our house, and that's the one that's gonna be kind of designated for recovery." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "26:41", "start": 1601.36, "text": "You know, up in the bunker in Saskatchewan, you gotta take the helicopter up there to get into it, all that good stuff, you know, that's the, the safe lo-location key. But we really only wanna, we wanna make the plan around that one key that's most accessible, most easy to get, get access to, just to keep the problem, you know, as constrained as, as possible. That's not the only way to do it, there's a bunch of other ways to, to, to, to go here. Usually requires thinking about it a lot But I'd like to kind of provide like the easiest pathway as like, as like, you know, the most common kind of, kind of default approach there, just saying, \"Hey, it's the key that's, you know, we already have in our, in our, in our house. It's easy and it's accessible. \"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:23", "start": 1642.87, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. So we're talking about inheritance, have you also thought about recovery? How would your heirs recover your coins? Well, with Ciphersafe dot io, they are producing metal backup seed products, and they've got a new one" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:42", "start": 1662.1, "text": "It has two stainless steel plates for all twenty-four of your seed words. It's got privacy by default. It's stainless steel hardware that holds this all together. It can be locked with a padlock. You get a tamper-evident seal, and you get an automatic center punch provided. And just like all CipherSafe products, it's made from stainless steel. It's fireproof, rustproof, and waterproof. So make sure you or your loved ones can access your coins if an accident occurs. Go to CipherSafe dot io and use the code Livera for a discount. And next up is my Coin hardware wallet, the Coldcard. So this is a great choice if you have your coins on the exchange or maybe you're on a phone wallet and you need to upgrade now to a hardware wallet. The Coldcard is really versatile, you can use it with Sparrow wallet or Specter or Electrum. Now some people say it's a little hard if they are new, but I think you can make certain trade-offs with the Coldcard to help the ease that new coiner into the process. So you might use it on Sparrow with the default setup, you might not have a passphrase, and you- You might get them to direct plug the device instead of using the micro SD air gap, which is a feature with the coldcard, and then later they can upgrade to using these features like seed XOR or having a passphrase or potentially even using the coldcard as part of a multi-signature setup. So go to coinkite dot com and use the code livera to order your coldcard. And finally, Unchained Capital. So if you are sitting on a single signature phone wallet or hardware wallet or you've left your coins on the exchange, well, check out Unchained. They can help you. You get set up with multi-signature, so you can have multiple devices, keep them in different locations, and this will dramatically improve your security standpoint. So with Unchained Capital, you can buy two hardware wallets, and that's, Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, and you can get set up with a vault. Now, if you need help, they offer a concierge service, and that's available for individuals or for businesses. You can pay that upfront fee, use code Livera for a discount there. They'll do some calls with you, they'll ship hardware wallets to you With a vault, having a multi-signature vault will give you a lot more peace of mind in terms of how you secure and store your Bitcoin for the long term. Unchained also offer loans, so you can borrow against your Bitcoin, and they also have a range of educational material about Bitcoin, and my favorite is Gradually Then Suddenly, the series by Parker Lewis. So go and find out more at unchained dot com. And now back to the show. Yeah, that's an interesting way to put it. And yeah, as you said, it's that flexibility of having one of the keys be The hot encrypted key, mobile key that is able to be transitioned over to the heir or the beneficiary or the spouse or whoever, and then the combo of that, that three of five. And so I guess just for listeners as well, if you're new, part of this whole idea is the idea is we are trying to eliminate single points of failure. So the idea being you don't have enough of a quorum on you at any one given time, so that way someone can't just go under the head, \"Hey, pay me all your bitcoins right now,\" you're gonna have to say, \" Security vault or you're gonna have to take me overseas, 'cause I've got a key over there or something like that to make it, I guess, an extremely expensive attack. And so that's the general idea we're going with here. And then I'm actually curious as well, like with that whole idea of geographically distributing keys, what's been, you know, the Casa approach and thought around that right now in the kind of this age of, you know, COVID hysteria restrictions, has that been difficult for, Casa customers or have they kind of found a way around or managed it? Around this. It's definitely been," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "31:13", "start": 1872.99, "text": "it was definitely kind of an unexpected challenge that, that came up for us. You know, typically it just means more use of the cost recovery key because, you know, anyone who's looking to move, to move funds around is gonna, you know, basically need one, a minimum of one hardware device to sign with themselves, plus the mobile key that gets you to two, and most people have, you know, fairly ready access to that mobile key obviously on your phone, and then that one hardware device that they, that you keep relatively close at hand. And Typically, you might have another key like within your metro area, but if you know banks are closed and there's all kinds of other travel restrictions, that can definitely be a, be a challenge. That's where Casa comes in. We hold the, we hold the, the recovery key, give us a call, we'll ver- do all our security checks, make you wait for a security delay, but then after that, you know, we'll sign, sign a transaction on your, on your behalf and you can move funds. Yeah, we did have some people who I think rethought their setup a For a very long time, and so then they just, you know, rotated that key out, rotated a new key in with, the new hardware that we, that we shipped them, did that, did that kind of, that transfer using their, their mobile key, the key they had access to, and the custom recovery key, and then they, you know, that, that new key they added in, they, they kept it a bit close, closer at hand so they would be able to sign on their own." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:35", "start": 1954.55, "text": "Yeah, it's a tricky one, but, I think, yeah, you're right. It's, it, it's just about thinking through carefully what am I going to be able to access, and hopefully over time, if the restrictions come down and people can move and travel around a bit more easily, then it kind of gets back to a more ideal scenario where you can move around more freely and put the keys in harder-to-reach locations so that, that way it's hard-- better from a security point of view," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "32:59", "start": 1978.71, "text": "right? Well, one of the, yeah, one of the lifestyle and moving around a lot, and that's definitely been an interesting challenge to, to help people deal with, but a pretty cool one as well, because there's just ways in which with multisig, if you're moving around, you can make sure that, you know, generally speaking, you always have access to your funds, but you can also do things, you know, to make sure that while you're traveling, you know, you're never gonna, gonna run, run into a problem where, you know, some sketchy border guard is gonna, is gonna g-give you a hard time You know, one thing that we do, for instance, is, you know, we, you know, we have this emergency lockdown feature. They'll lock down the account until you can get in touch with Casa. and so something that some people will do is they'll say, \"Hey, can I do an emergency lockdown while I'm traveling?\" We said, \"Yeah, sure, absolutely.\" And that way, you can actually travel with two keys, but you also know that, you know, you're not gonna be able to log into your, to your Casa account. You're not gonna be You go through myself or someone on my team who's gonna verify, yes, it's really you, you're safe in your, in your new country, and now we can go ahead and, and unlock that account for you. So there's just a lot of flexibility that you get with multisig, and that's really like, that's the biggest thing that I think that people miss is like, yes, this is all about security, it's all about the, you know, keeping your funds the most secure way possible, but it also opens up a whole world. So it's not just like, I But it opens up flexibility for inheritance, for travel, for all these different kind of challenges that, and, you know, life situations that, that, that apply, apply to everybody. Yeah. Anyways, I, I just wanna see, I wanna see more approaches to it, I wanna see more people kinda taking advantage of some of this stuff." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:50", "start": 2089.64, "text": "Yeah, that's really cool about the nomadic people aspect and being able to temperate, like, to lock down the account for a little while and then reopen it back up. And I'm curious as well, maybe, obviously without do Any customers who've, you know, or at least in the industry, have you heard of people who've had trouble, let's say, moving through the airport, you know, how you gotta put your thing, your bag through, and, you know, whether they would, I don't know, look at your hardware wallets and say, \"Oh, is that something dodgy?\" Or, or another one people have is, that concern about if, let's say, they had to take like a seed plate through, and would that be visible in like that X-ray machine that you have to go" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:34", "start": 2134.21, "text": "It's a great question. So" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "35:35", "start": 2135.09, "text": "first of all, on a personal level, I fly with so much hardware devices and Faraday bags. It's all Casa stuff. It's not, it's not, nothing, none of my per-personal stuff, which I lost in boating accident a very long time ago. so I, I have to work so, work so hard at Casa to ke- to st-stack that Bitcoin. But yeah, you know, I've never personally had, had an issue. You know, my, generally my recommendation is if you're gonna take a Faraday bag with" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "36:04", "start": 2164.23, "text": "Like USB sticks and other kind of just electronic junk in there, and, you know, most guards or, you know, most, most, you know, security agents are gonna say, \"Uh, just, you know, a bunch of, bunch of stuff, I'm not, I'm not too worried about this.\" You definitely wanna be very careful if you are traveling with-- if you need to travel with, like, a QR, if you need to travel with, like, you know, two keys plus a mobile, plus a mobile phone, you wanna be extremely careful about how you do that, and And then also on top of that, deleting the app off your phone, things like that become, become really important. But generally speaking, if you're just traveling with a single hardware device, just make it look like it's not a big deal. You know, if you, if it's, if it seems like you're trying to hide it or it seems like you're trying to do something weird with it, you're a lot more likely to, you know, to draw someone's attention than if it just, it just looks like, you know, it's kind of a mess in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:04", "start": 2224.41, "text": "The seedless approach that Casa take, but you also mentioned that your beneficiary might have a seed as well. So how, how does that part work? Is, are you saying for that specific key in the inheritance case where you're using, you know, you're having one party hold one key, they should also hold like the twenty four words on a seed plate or some kind of metal backup for it, or what's the difference there?" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "37:29", "start": 2248.85, "text": "Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:29", "start": 2249.33, "text": "absolutely. I love" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "37:30", "start": 2249.95, "text": "this 'cause I get to get into the nitty gritty of how we think about this stuff again, because We've actually changed our approach a little bit, and we say we are partially seedless. So the way I think about it is we have two of our keys are highly resilient, they're not gonna be lost, they're recoverable in a bunch of different situations. That's that mobile key we talked about, and that's that Casa recovery key, available to you anywhere you go in the world. And then from there, we wanna make sure the rest of our keys are very secure, because, you know, resilient, accessible around the world means potentially able to be stolen. So we've only got three hard Three of those are gonna be so secure, we're not even gonna back them up. And the assumption is, if you lose one of those hardware devices, we aren't going to restore that same key on a new hardware device. We're just gonna replace the key entirely, replace the device obviously, but also just get a brand new key. And what we're gonna do is we're gonna use four of the remain-- three of the remaining four keys in your setup to, to do a key rotation, which is basically a transfer of funds from the old account to the new account. So that's what Those, two hardware devices, if we were to lose them, the ones we don't have the seed phrase for. We are now encouraging people to hold onto one of their seed phrases, in part for inheritance reasons, because this is going to give you kind of an additional backup that, a, you know, that your, that your loved one could, could recover. But also, you know, just as kind of an additional piece of resiliency, we want that key to be basically, you know, instead of one hundred percent, you know, single location, very secure, you know" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "39:04", "start": 2344.23, "text": "Super secure single location, but we also like to have a little bit of that backup, a little bit of that rec-recuperability on that one as, as well to kinda get us, give us a little bit more, more flexibility. There's also some other fun things you can do if you wanna get to like your three o one level multisig with cloning the device and having different copies of the same key on different hardware devices and different locations. You can get super fancy with all this stuff, but bottom line is that we do like having one seed phrase for one of the hardware devices. Available, and that's a pretty subtle shift, but a pretty important one when it comes to, when it comes to kind of thinking about the holistic picture of recoverability versus security of your, of, of your keys." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:46", "start": 2385.66, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah. So put in other words, then it's like your Casa mobile key can be recovered, the Casa recovery key, you guys have got that covered, and you've got that obviously able to be recovered, and then now you, you wanna have, of those three remaining hardware wallets, you wanna have the seed plate or seed, you know, phrase backed up for One of those, for just one of those three. Exactly. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "40:08", "start": 2407.55, "text": "Yeah. And that, that exactly, and it's, you know, so three keys are recoverable, three keys are single location, and, we're very careful with how you manage that, that seed phrase. It's gonna go in a tamper-evident bag, or I should recommend that you store it in the same location that the key it, itself is. So it's, again, that same assumption, like if your house burns down and the key and the seed phr- and the seed are in your We want to kind of start to increase more complexity by moving that seed phrase somewhere else or combining with another, with another key. So still, we basically assume that it's, pretty, you know, the same single location model so that those, that key is never in multiple places, but does give us a lot more, a lot more flexibility, a lot more recoverability also in some different scenarios." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:53", "start": 2453.06, "text": "Right. Yeah. And that can give us a little bit more, let's say someone is really paranoid about bit rot or, you know, something happening, then this is one thing that helps Because you've at least got that one hardware wallet with the seed phrase written down, or ideally on a metal backup that's stored with the hardware wallet, and then mobile key plus Casa recovery key, which means you will be able to spend even if you lost the other two hardware wallets. And I guess there, there can be a lot of complexity in this as well, because for people who are doing, let's say, the DIY method, then they have to make sure even if they lost one of their hardware wallets, that they've still got the public keys for all of them, and that's like a common They're kind of really deep into the technical details of how all this stuff works, so that's one point there. Also wondering what your thoughts are on the various different hardware wallets. I know, they have, I guess, different levels of multi-signature support. Like I know, for example, Coldcard and Trezor tend to be very multi-sig friendly, whereas I think, as I understand, the Ledger is perhaps a bit less multi-sig friendly than the others. What's been your experience with that, and is that shifting over time and changing?" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "42:01", "start": 2521.03, "text": "Yeah, I mean, you know Card most, most directly, they're all g-good devices, they all have different, different trade-offs. You know, I would say my personal favorite is the Coldcard, and what I like about that is I really like their approach to, to UX. it's a little more complicated, it takes a little bit more doing, but it's like, you know, it's like, it's a pop-up in the hood, the hood of a car. You know, a new car, all you're gonna see is like a box, and then like, you know, there's gonna be like chips and boards in there, and you're not, you know, no, like, you know At home, do it yourself, or is gonna be able to do anything on a new car. An old car, you can see how everything is working inside, you can see the timing belt, you can see the piston, you can see, you know, the oil intake, you know, there's all the different parts of it, you can see and it's all right out there in front of you. And to me, that's how a cold car is, you see everything is doing, it's very, you know, everything is kind of laid out there and you understand clearly what's going on under" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "43:01", "start": 2580.64, "text": "and I think that's a great device. Ledger's kind of in, in the middle. I think it's pretty u-user friendly, frankly, the, the little, just the way the UX worked with the buttons isn't, not my favorite in the world. But yeah, I like all the hardware devices for, for different reasons, but I'm most excited about QR code signing. This is going to make multisig so much easier. This is going to make all the stuff that, that we do so much easier because you no longer have to deal with all the complexity of like the USB hub and Browsers, all these pieces that kind of get between you and, and the device that are, you know, have nothing to do with Bitcoin, have nothing to do with, you know, you know, that really couldn't care less about, you know, what you're, what you're try, trying to do with it, all those pieces go away, it's directly from device to device, camera to camera, just makes life a lot easier. So I'm really excited about all the, all the q- all the new QR code signing that's coming, coming on, online soon" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:56", "start": 2636.45, "text": "Right, yeah, so that might be useful then in the case of something like Foundation device or, Specter DIY, which is out nowadays. I know Kobo also has QR code scanning, but I know Kobo has just recently gone through a little bit of a kerfuffle there, and it looks like Lixen has split away out to kind of do that, but yeah, hopefully the overall ecosystem expands in terms of options, as you're saying, around QR codes. And so for listeners who are unfamiliar, basically it passes that transaction Action back and forth using QR code scanning, so the wallet will scan the QR and then on the other side you'll flip it back, and then the device, let's say the laptop or the phone that you're using, will then scan and ingest that signed transaction from the physical hardware wallet or signing device, maybe that's a more correct term or whatever you wanna call it." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "44:45", "start": 2684.66, "text": "Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great, it's literally passing the raw transaction data across in just this, this visual kind of code format, and you know, it takes like nine different QR codes to kind of get the Get the whole payload across every time, but, I mean, it is just a, it's one of the, you know, I think every, all these improvements that we do on nodes, on hardware wallets, and all the kind of hard pieces of, of Bitcoin tech, they feel like, you know, you're, you're grinding to edge out those like five percent improvements, those like seven percent improvements, which are great and necessary, but it always feels like so much work for like a little bit of gain. I feel like the QR code signing is a ten X improvement in terms of the, the The approachability of multi-sig, of using Bitcoin securely, of using hardware wallets, and I'm, I'm really excited about it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:33", "start": 2732.81, "text": "Yeah, that's cool to see. I'll tell you what, though, I mean, maybe not to be too much of a downer on it, but sometimes I've played around obviously with different setups, and sometimes you, I get weird results if, you know, depending on which software you're using and like, depending on the lighting in the room and things like that. But, but I think I, I definitely agree with you though, it is a big" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:56", "start": 2756.07, "text": "Going and I'm testing things and trying different things out and so on, so that's kind of my experience with it. So, yeah, I guess kind of where do you think this industry is going? Like, do you think we're gonna be able to get multisig to the masses?" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "46:08", "start": 2768.04, "text": "Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question. yes is the answer. Absolutely, we're gonna be able to get multisig to the masses, but I'm not sure they're gonna know that it's multisig. I'm not sure that they're going to be thinking about like" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "46:26", "start": 2786.19, "text": "Signing devices. Where I think we're gonna go with it is, I think it's going to go to, you know, I think that what I do, you know, is going to be very professionalized. I think there's gonna be a lot of people doing what I do right now. Essentially, you know, there's some freelancers out there, there's us, there's, you know, there's, there's Unchained, there's, you know, maybe a dozen people in, in the US who at least work for a company and get paid to basically like be a kind of" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "46:56", "start": 2816.23, "text": "I think that in order for this to scale, you know, or in order for Bitcoin to scale, I think you're gonna need to see us-- this role basically become as common as, you know, something like a lawyer or an accountant, you know, just the, the professional expert who can help guide anybody through, you know, through, through this world and show them how to do it the right way. It's, you know, a lawyer is your agent, they are basically acting on your behalf in the legal system. It's very different from a banker who, while they kind of say They, they actually control the keys, they actually control the, control the funds directly. They're standing between you and your money. And so to me, I think that that's, that's really what I, what I wanna see happen. I wanna see more people, you know, more Bitcoiners kind of saying, \"In what way can I be, you know, Uncle Jim for, you know, for my community? How can I be Uncle Jim for my family? How can I run a node? How can I hold a key in their multisig? How can I help them recover all this stuff" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "47:56", "start": 2876.09, "text": "For this, I wanna, you know, build, build models that allow Bitcoiners to like just be Bitcoiners and help, help everyone else in the world kind of tap into this network and, and, you know, and open, you know, permissionless and, and ultimately a way that, that supports the network. I think we need to build the, you know, we have a decentralized network, but we have to actually build the human decentralization on top of it, because if, if we don't do it that way, you're right, it's, all the Bitcoin's gonna end up in" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "48:26", "start": 2906.05, "text": "Are gonna end up in, you know, in giant pools that are, you know, that then become these honeypots for governments or these honeypots for, for other attackers to start, you know, to start chipping away the network. So that's what I wanna see. I think it's definitely happening. You know, there's, there's more interest in the stuff that we're doing. You're starting to see other companies coming on online to, to think about this. I don't know, CompuMining is a really interesting one where, you know, they're kind of With, you know, some of the lightning stuff, but I see a lot of that as a potential future for growing the light, the lightning network, obviously what, you know, Strike and the, and those guys are doing, I think it's a little bit different, but this is where I see the industry going if we are gonna be decentralized, is that Bitcoiners are gonna, you know, build businesses, but not, you know, giant hyperscale tech businesses, build person-person businesses where you have clients, you're helping them out, out with this stuff, you maybe have a" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "49:25", "start": 2964.99, "text": "That's how we kind of build the decentralization into the net, into like the human layer that is gonna match up the decentralization of the network. So that's, that's where I really wanna see the industry going." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:35", "start": 2975.42, "text": "Yeah. So as an example, we've seen Bitcoin Beach with their community bank kind of wallet, and they've got like a multisig for the on-chain, you know, aspect of it, and then Lightning, which is like a custodial Lightning wallet shared by the use, by the thousands of users. And then, yeah, so maybe we see that as a model for various communities They have some kind of multi-sig bank operated by different, you know, people in the community, and that also brings up the question then as well, because do you think the industry will standard or standardize around certain approaches and, certain standard ways of storing most of your coin, right? So maybe, let's say most people have, you know, Moon Wallet or Phoenix or Breeze just as their little day-to-day Lightning wallet, and most people aren't gonna be running a routing node, right? Let's be honest, although many of my listeners are the kind of person who would, but The average day-to-day user just have a Lightning wallet, and then for their stack, for their hodl stack, you know, their life savings, that's where they get the multisig. And, you know, I wonder whether that will standardize into certain approaches, and, you know, we'll have like a standardized two of three approach or a standardized three of five approach. Do you see that kind of thing happening, or do you kind of see it more just like there'll just be a multitude of various options with passphrase as this, and, you know, seed phrase, you know," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "50:53", "start": 3052.61, "text": "seed phrase Like, I think there's gonna be some kind of standard approaches that make a lot, that make a lot of sense, to most people, but I don't think it's gonna be totally standardized because there's just so many kind of cultural differences. And this is just one of those things that I love about Bitcoin, is that, you know, it has to, you know, it's so simple, and like the ideas are, you know, we wanna have this base layer that's like the minimum amount that we can agree on. It's like the minimum viable consensus is like the whole thing that It's the least that we can all agree on, given all our differences, across humanity, was the least that we could, can agree on so we can do business with each other and we can go, and we can go from there. And so I think you're gonna have all kinds of, all kinds of different setups, because, you know, for me, what, what makes the most sense for my, you know, for, for my cli-client base is gonna be wildly different than, you know, someone who's trying to create a, you know, a Bitcoin Beach type community." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "51:53", "start": 3112.91, "text": "It Like the highest and most like ultra high net worth types, you know, who have want nothing to do with, with the, you know, with the technical side, as little to do as that is, with that as possible, isn't gonna be totally different from like a family in, you know, in India or a family in China that has to like avoid the auth-the authoritarian regime that's, that's cracking down on it. You know, there's just, there's so many, you know, there's, you know, Bitcoin is, will be as diverse as, as kind of the human experience" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "52:25", "start": 3145.39, "text": "The way that people kind of map their relationships across the people that, that matter to them. So, yeah, I think it's, I think there's definitely gonna be kind of some primitives that just makes sense from a technical standpoint, but I think that al-also like, there's just so many different ways to do it, and, and multisig really introduces those, that potential to kind of like create different approaches that make sense for different, like, small, tight, intimate groups, groups of people." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:50", "start": 3170.35, "text": "Yeah. I, so maybe one way to think of it is like, in the early years, Approaches tried, and I think people have sort of found which of those were, quote unquote, dead ends, right? So one would be having everything on a single signature wallet, that for a large amount of coin, that's basically a dead end. No one really does that. Shamir's secret sharing, kind of a dead end, right? Like un-l-ex- unless you're doing it in like a very special context and it's only one part of your overall setup, that kind of thing. Whereas in the past, that used to be seen as like, \"Oh, this is maybe, Large amounts of coins and then different configurations that are popular, but people might have all of their own little flavors and spins on it." }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "53:32", "start": 3212.33, "text": "Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:32", "start": 3212.47, "text": "definitely. You" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "53:33", "start": 3212.99, "text": "know, to me, this is like, this is the be-- again, it's the, it's the great thing about, about Bitcoin is, you know, technology can scale out to the world, and this is what, you know, this is like the whole idea of, you know, of the internet, like, you, you know, build a product with like, you know, one guy, Satoshi, built Bitcoin, and then it scaled" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "53:55", "start": 3234.75, "text": "That have to kind of account for that different human context and the different experiences of people, otherwise it's just like you're kind of flattening every, everything. If it's like, okay, well, yeah, now, you know, the same Facebook platform is gonna serve everybody in the world, but it's gonna serve everyone kind, kind of the same way. So, you know, the Bitcoin's like social scalability a- aspect to it and just the kind of like, the way in which it doesn't, you know, it requires kind of a minimum level of input and then let's," }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "54:25", "start": 3264.73, "text": "To me is like the future that, you know, really kind of bright future that brings the best of technology in with, like, you know, and leaves aside some of the, some of the, some of the baggage that it brought with it in, you know, in the, in the kind of the fir- the first iteration, the web, you know, the web one point oh and two, two point oh versions that I think are gonna, gonna be" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:44", "start": 3284.0, "text": "left, left behind. Right. Yeah. So look, let's bring it back then. So let's summarize some" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:55", "start": 3294.69, "text": "Inheritance, maybe what would you tell them and maybe split it up and maybe for some of the listeners who are, you know, not Casa customers and then any tips for those who are Casa customers?" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "55:04", "start": 3304.31, "text": "Yeah, of course. So, you know, if you're thinking about inheritance, the most important thing to do is take the time, sit down, think about it, and go through it. And then take the time and sit down with your loved ones and take, you know, take them through it as well. You wanna make sure that they're gonna be able to get access to that, you The quorum is, if it's a single sig, you're gonna wanna make sure they have access to the, the device, you're gonna wanna make sure they have access to the seed phrase. If you use a passphrase, it's critically important that they have access to that too, because, you know, without the passphrase, they don't, you know, they, they can have the private key and they, they won't have access to the funds. So it's important that they, you know, that you have a plan in place for them to access, you know, whatever it's gonna take Who they can get, get in touch with to help them, because they're gonna have questions. It's going to be complicated, it's going to be a hard thing for them to navigate, and you don't want them to be in a position where they don't know who to go to for that, for, for that help. They don't know who to get in touch with or how to get, how to get in touch with someone that, you know, that they should trust. So that's, that's really the, the most important thing, you know, and for, I, I don't think I have any like specific advice for Casa clients other than, you know, email, email me and we'll get you on boarded and all, all that kind of stuff. You know, the, the other thing that I, I would just, I would just leave for anybody is keep it simple as much as you can. You know, we spent a lot of time thinking about like, what is the one thing that a beneficiary has to do? So we have like an envelope that, Doing it yourself, it's like, what's the one place they can go to to get all this stuff? But then make sure you're also thinking about the security of that, which, which can certainly get, get complicated. Yeah. Bottom line is, get help if you need it, but there's definitely a lot of, a lot of ways to do this, and there's gonna be a lot of people in the industry who are gonna come up with all kinds of solutions on, on how to tackle exactly this problem." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:04", "start": 3424.18, "text": "Excellent. And, Hector, for listeners who wanna" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "57:10", "start": 3430.44, "text": "find" }, { "speaker": "hector_rosekrans", "time": "57:16", "start": 3435.68, "text": "59. That's, that's Twitter, and then we're at Keys Dot Casa, pretty, pretty simple there. And, yeah, my DMs, DMs are open, always happy to talk Bitcoin inheritance, wha-whatever else. And, that's, yeah, best way to get in touch." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:30", "start": 3450.43, "text": "Thank you, Hector. All right, Stefan. Have a good one. So share the episode with your family and friends. Find me at stephanelivera dot com slash two eight six. And of course, if you're liking the show" } ] }