{ "episodeId": "SLP287", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "danny_scott": { "name": "Danny Scott", "role": "guest", "tag": "DANNY" }, "zakk_lakin": { "name": "Zakk Lakin", "role": "guest", "tag": "ZAKK" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 9.15, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. Today for episode two hundred and eighty-seven, Danny Scott and Zach Lakin of Coin Corner join me to talk about a few things. We're talking about Hoffline wallets, a new type of wallet that, is an improvement in certain contexts and under certain trade-offs. We also talk a bit about Lightning Adoption as well. This show brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Swan Bitcoin holds a deep conviction that Bitcoin is the future of money. Swan's aim is to help you maximize your position in this dominant digital monetary network. 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Lend at hoddlehoddle is a peer-to-peer Bitcoin backed lending platform so you can collateralize your Bitcoin and. and borrow stablecoins, or on the other hand, you can, you can put up your stablecoins and get some interest, so you can earn income on those stablecoins, and the average APR is twenty-five percent. On the other hand, if you want to collateralize your bitcoins, you can now borrow against them, and you will still hold one key in the two or three multi-signature as HoddleHoddle doesn't hold your funds. So this is a peer-to-peer lending market and enabling lending and borrowing directly between users. So you set your own terms and put up offers depending on how long you wanna borrow or lend and the interest rate. Go to lend.hoddlehoddle.com. Do you want to get involved in Bitcoin mining? There's a lot of chatter now about the upcoming- Difficulty adjustment. Compos is an online marketplace making it easier for everyone to mine Bitcoin and enhance the Bitcoin network's security. So this isn't a cloud mining option, you select an ASIC machine and have it sent to a facility that has been vetted by the Compos team, and now everyone can tap into economies of scale, getting access to reasonably priced hardware and cheap industrial power rates. So if you're unsure about how to get started, Compos offer hardware and hosting bundles, eliminating the need for advanced Technical knowledge, go and get started at compassmining.io. Danny and Zach, welcome to the show. Hi, Stefan. Hi," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "02:47", "start": 167.15, "text": "Stefan." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "02:47", "start": 167.49, "text": "Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:50", "start": 169.84, "text": "great to finally speak to you. Yeah, yeah. So I see you guys are doing some exciting things, and, I thought it was time to get you boys on for a chat. So let's hear a little bit about you and, you know, how you got into-- Well, I, I guess Danny, let's start with you, and let's hear a little bit from you and how you started Coin Corner." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "03:07", "start": 186.57, "text": "Okay, yep, I'll jump in. I'll keep this brief. the-- So I was, I kind of got involved in Bitcoin, more on a hands-on Various competitive advantages, shall we say, and that kind of, cropped up a few times as, as an opportunity. we never went ahead with any of them, and then that was again more management level, didn't really understand it, didn't know what it was, it was in magic internet money, I guess. it was the, the, the, the feedback I guess we got along the way. But eventually then, s-- kind of, I spun off with one of our co-founders and we created a software company, and then" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "03:51", "start": 231.2, "text": "The point where obviously the assets were difficult to acquire, that became a bit of a arms race to get us the assets, but, obviously being on, we were on the Isle of Man, which is a little island off, England, if people are, aren't sure where that is. it's in between the, the Irish Sea and between Ireland and, the UK. Awesome. So we, we struggled to get anything, in terms of the assets, and then the electricity costs were increasing due to obviously we needed more assets on there, and it didn Stay in the Bitcoin world, so we, we pivoted, we were software developers by trade, so we kind of pivoted to creating Coin Corner, because at the time, again, it was sort of two thousand and fourteen, at that point, the start of two thousand and fourteen, and we got to a point where, it was very difficult still to buy Bitcoin, especially in the UK. obviously the US, they had Coinbase and, and the likes there still at that time. but yeah, we struggled to buy Bitcoins, which is why actually we originally started mining rather And the Mount Gox situation. Right. Yeah. I don't know, I don't know why we, I think we just stayed clear of that generally, just 'cause it was a kind of Japanese style, site, and we were trying to find the UK, when I think at the time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:03", "start": 302.61, "text": "that's interesting, Because most people back in those days were on Mount Gox, like Mount Gox pretty much was Bitcoin back then. So it's funny, but, I guess, you know, people have, have their different experiences, hey?" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "05:19", "start": 318.68, "text": "so," }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "05:21", "start": 321.48, "text": "2017, kind of fresh grad, computer science degree, working in a corporate software development house, and then I had a colleague, Liam, who used to work here at Coin Corner, he kind of reached out and said there's a job going, which piqued my interest, so kind of jumped in there and, been down the rabbit hole ever since, really. Now looking back, 'cause I came in right at the tail end of the block size wars, so I've recently read the, the book by Jonathan, yeah, on that, so that Yeah. So I'm fairly new but old, four years now at the company." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "05:56", "start": 355.92, "text": "yeah. Yeah, Zach's our tech lead here as well, the Matt." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "05:58", "start": 357.62, "text": "Yeah. Fully down the rabbit hole. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:01", "start": 361.05, "text": "Cool, cool. So, Danny, let's get into this, Hoffline wallet idea. So it, it seems like such a crazy thing. So I guess maybe you wanna set the scene for it, like why, why were you even thinking about this idea? Like, doesn't everyone just use, you know, multisig or just use, say, one One of those." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "06:22", "start": 382.14, "text": "Yeah, so I, I guess I'll, I'll set the scene a little bit, try and keep it, entertaining 'cause I don't think it's as exciting as, sometimes it sounds. so I think we were, not wanting to, to slag off, the likes of Coinbase, but it was Coinbase, coincidentally at the time. I think they'd added one of the altcoins, the previous night, and, I, me and Zach came into the office in the morning, On sort of Bitcoin itself, core or, or whatever that be, and we was going through kind of a bit of a rant about Coinbase and how they basically, they've got the, the funds, they've got the resources, they've got everything at their disposal, and they don't really do too much for the Bitcoin, industry. And this was before, I think Peter McComber had convinced, Brian Armstrong to start contributing to Bitcoin core developers and things, so it was even before that. So we was kind of like, you know, we were thinking the same" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "07:21", "start": 441.2, "text": "Crazy ideas, and obviously one of them that popped up was a hot wallet that is purely offline, the keys are purely offline. So we sort of said that's obviously ridiculous idea, we'll just sort of, you, you brush it off and leave it. and then we thought, well, why can't we, we've seen cold storage do that with QR codes and, and that side, so we started talking around them and how that would work, and then we sort of touched on, well, what if we automate the QR codes to just go backwards and forwards between themselves and then communicate in" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "07:51", "start": 471.22, "text": "Yeah, and maybe it still is. We'll, we'll, we'll wait and see, I'll let people judge on that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:57", "start": 476.52, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And maybe, do you wanna also set the scene a little bit in terms of what most, you know, because of all the hacks that have gone on in this industry, so many people have lost money, and, you know, as we say, it's a perennial saying, \"Not your keys, not your coins.\" And so typically, I guess most exchanges would like have like a smaller hot wallet, and then they'd keep most of their stuff in Who is in turn doing some of those more advanced techniques. So I guess is that kind of a good high level of what most exchanges would be doing at this point?" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "08:29", "start": 508.91, "text": "Yeah, yeah, completely. Yeah, I think so. As an exchange, probably our biggest attack vector would be our hot wallet, so we're always-- So this was more of a taking what the guys in the cold wallet sector are doing and then with the air gap QR codes and trying to solve our problems with the mitigating our hot wallet exposure and that kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "08:45", "start": 524.96, "text": "Yeah, it's a different use case almost to what we, we There's a lot of different companies that we touched on, BitGo and, and there's Fireblocks and the likes that are doing the MPC methods, BitGo doing the multi-sig method, and there's different ways, but they all obviously still have their issues. there's no perfect solution, and, you know, this is also Hoffline isn't a perfect solution either. none of the, the solutions are perfect, and they never will be, for the most part, I think. but it's just a different model, effectively trying to solve" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:21", "start": 561.46, "text": "Looks like. So for, for listeners, obviously it's an audio show, but if you wouldn't mind just kind of spelling out for them, what does it actually look like if they were to look at a hotline setup?" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "09:30", "start": 570.31, "text": "Yep. So there's effectively two, how to explain this, two" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "09:33", "start": 573.45, "text": "halves. There's two halves to it. Each half, one half is the hot wallet, one half is the cold wallet. Each half has, a Raspberry Pi and then alongside it a camera. It's kind of, each one is mirrored. So the hot camera is looking at the cold Raspberry Pi and the Four fire QR codes in an air gapped manner, and, we put it in a nice shiny little 3D printed case, that 3D printer was running overdrive on, it was like a big forty hour print. So yeah, that's, that's the basic setup in a nutshell. If you," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "10:04", "start": 604.29, "text": "if you watch the video, we've put a video out on social, so you can probably watch that and see, just to get an idea for yourselves of, of how that looks and how it works. It kinda looks a bit weird and looks a bit" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "10:21", "start": 621.22, "text": "3D printing and we, we built a, a case with Lego to hold the, the pies and the cameras, but it wasn't quite as good as the 3D printed, 3D printed model. It's" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "10:29", "start": 629.23, "text": "also, it's, it's the very first form factor, so we've got, you know, there's several ideas out there how to make it super small and, you know, we don't need to use Raspberry Pies, we can use own custom hardware or smaller hardware and smaller screens. So it's the very first incarnation, more of a proof of concept" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "10:51", "start": 651.42, "text": "would like to, to kind of get the message out there to people as well that doing these things, it's, it's an R&D project, we put it out there to the community, we've actually had very good feedback so far, we've not really had anything too negative in, in any respects, but, we're hoping part of this also just opens people's eyes up to what, you know, there's still innovation to be done in Bitcoin, there's still things that can be created, there's still problems to solve using things around the Bitcoin industry and the infrastructure. So" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "11:21", "start": 681.26, "text": "What this may be." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:23", "start": 682.86, "text": "Right, right. And so let's talk a little bit about what it might be useful for. So as I understand from what you're saying, it's not necessarily that you're gonna replace your cold storage with this Hoffline project, but it might be that you use this as your new hot wallet instead, because maybe this is like a more secure way to have a quote-unquote warm wallet as opposed to just having like a single signature, everything on one computer kind of style." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "11:46", "start": 706.22, "text": "Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's, it's kind of a, a step forward for the, the Offline to an air-gapped machine, and that will, it's a step forward on the current models that are in place, shall we say, in the security, and it's an advancement in the security aspects of it, as is was BitGo with their multisig and things like that compared to just a standard, standalone hot wallet on a, a server, for example. so these things are just step forwards each time and, and improving each time. So yeah, we wouldn't ever hold our, hundred percent of our cold storage, cold stored Bitcoins in there It's that additional, comfort that the keys are never on a, a physical machine that is physically online at any point." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:27", "start": 746.78, "text": "Gotcha. And I guess so then that would theoretically make it harder for somebody to attack, like, let's say now they've, they would have to physically get there and access to the, to the offline device to try and somehow extract the keys out of there and then run away and somehow, you know, spend it out away. And" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "12:44", "start": 764.06, "text": "yeah, the biggest attack vector is physical, which is with anything really, but we've even had crazy ideas about how you deal with that Wallets, put it, you know, you can have a multi-sig setup so you have five of these around the world, and there's so many other ideas building on top of this that would allow for," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "13:01", "start": 781.47, "text": "so yeah, it would allow for the multi-sig piece so we could have two of these setups or three of these setups and you can dot them around the world and the keys would still be offline. So the, all three keys, for example, there are all required to sign the transaction, but all three of them keys are purely offline and never go online at any Attack Vector, I guess from the digital attack vector, so the, online piece, I know there's a lot of queries about, well, what if you, somebody compromises the online machine and then displays a QR code that's, tells them to send Bitcoin, ten Bitcoin to an address that's, a hacker's address. Obviously, we've put mitigations in place for things like that. So there's, for example, when a customer goes onto the website, they input their address and their amount, there's a, we've got a secret key at the web end, hashes" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "13:51", "start": 831.2, "text": "Database. I'm, I'm being fairly vague with some of this, just, from a security perspective anyway, and we'll call that, that signature effectively goes into a secondary database, and when the hot wallet, the hot machine pulls down the data to send the transaction, so it'll pull some from the database, it'll sum, it'll pull the signature, for example, from the secondary database, and that signature can then be pasted in the QR codes to the offline machine, and the offline machine has the secret key as well, it's only stored there and Effectively came from the customer from the website. so even if you compromise a piece in the middle, like the online machine, you would still also need to compromise the website at the same time as well. So there's certain mitigations put in place there to, effectively reduce, I guess, the, the, the success of an attack. so there's multiple machines in multiple locations that have to be compromised to even attempt an attack, shall we say?" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "14:44", "start": 884.18, "text": "I think we've also talked about ideas around, so a lot of these exchanges nowadays work off a whitelisting address system, The withdrawal address, so you could even have that whitelist is stored on the offline one as well. So if any malicious actor did try and do something, they could only, you know, it's mitigating where they can withdraw the bitcoins to. So there's loads of mitigations there we've thought of, which we're working on too." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:05", "start": 905.21, "text": "Yeah, fascinating. And so then it's also a process of different technologies in the ecosystem all come in and, you know, at one example could be that we, over the last, say, year or two, we've started to see more attention drawn to QR code PSBT, right? And before we even had that, we had to have PSBT, and then now, yeah, we're starting to see more development in QR codes and this idea of having QR code hardware wallets as well, like even Specter DIY. I did an episode with Stephan Snijder about that one. the foundation guys are doing their device that's a QR, kind of like a QR native device as well. So I guess that's an example of like the technology is kind of building up on what came before." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "15:48", "start": 948.5, "text": "Yeah, completely. Yeah. I think Stepan" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:52", "start": 952.32, "text": "Snigirev," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "15:53", "start": 953.0, "text": "yeah. Stephan, is it Stephan or Stepan? Stepan, Stepan, sorry. The, the, yes, yeah. yeah, listen to that one I think with the QR and, yeah, it's, it's very interesting and I think he highlights in that as well, it's just a different way. I know, Coldcard for example, they do it with the SD card and it's just a different method and then, I don't think they're actually moving the QR code anymore, they, Everyone has its pros and its cons, and it's all about trade-offs, isn't it? Yeah, it's gonna be who, who finds it useful and who doesn't. Some will, some won't. I think that's hopefully what the Hoffline piece will be as well. it's gonna be who finds it useful, who doesn't. Maybe it doesn't fit quite right for a, for BitGo, for example, because they, they operate in a different manner, I guess, to the way this is maybe intended to use, because they operate with exchanges as their Or another one, which is one we are quite keen to play around with, but haven't actually had the time yet, we will pursue at some point, is the Umbrel nodes, because Umbrel's become a, a very popular Bitcoin node setup with obviously Lightning built in as well, which is, is very good, and you could actually have the same setup your Umbrel node, so that would be effectively your Umbrel node, so your keys for that effectively are stored offline as well to alleviate, I guess, any worries as well, for, for the most part, you" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "17:21", "start": 1041.24, "text": "If you then have, two FA effectively, you can have Google Authenticator on your phone, and that same Google Authenticator code is also on the offline device. So when you come to make a transaction remotely, you can do that and input the Google two FA, and the offline can verify that for you there. So it starts to mean that there's a bit more security around running your own node in terms of sending the Bitcoin out and removing them. so it's definitely something that I think, hopefully, as you touched on there, that we've kind of taken some of the QR code pieces And hopefully then the guys at Umbrel and, and other people can use what we've built and build on top of that to, keep creating, better and better products and infrastructure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:00", "start": 1079.61, "text": "Yeah, that's cool. And so then it doesn't necessarily have to be a project for exchanges, it could be that maybe some other small business who wants to roll their own warm wallet, now they wanna take that code and run their own little Hoffline thing. So, you know, that's one example where maybe some, or, you know, or maybe another example might be like a Bitcoin Beach, right Another example there, so I guess there's just ways it can be used in other places, not necessarily an exchange." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "18:28", "start": 1108.16, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, I think we talked about as well, taking it one step further with Lightning, trying around, playing around with storing the macaroons on the offline one and that kind of thing, so all that is kind of not in the pipeline, but stuff we're thinking about too and interested in pursuing. Yeah. Yeah, need a conversation with Lightning Labs guys again, I think, on around" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:45", "start": 1125.34, "text": "it." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "18:46", "start": 1125.82, "text": "Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:48", "start": 1128.44, "text": "yeah. Let's see what we can come up with I mean, they are now starting to get Lightning, and so I know you guys have Lightning just recently, right? so that's cool to see, I'm very excited to see that. I, I'd love to see, you know, Lightning, being, adopted by the ecosystem. So is that something you're looking at as well? I mean, you mentioned that you might potentially look at a way to have," }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "19:08", "start": 1147.73, "text": "yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:08", "start": 1148.27, "text": "Hoffline do a Lightning thing, like how would that work?" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "19:11", "start": 1150.75, "text": "Yeah, we're still very early at the moment," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "19:15", "start": 1154.8, "text": "no, we're not quite sure Offline for some extent, I know they've, Lightning Labs have actually gotten, a release coming with LND, isn't it? Don't think it's coming soon, which starts to allow the-- you can have a Lightning node and receive Lightning payments offline, where the keys are kept offline, is it? Correct me if I'm wrong, Zach. Well, there's talk around that, yeah, I think there isn't. Which would be an interesting, development, which would be good. But there's obviously still the side of it if you want to send Lightning payments out of" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "19:51", "start": 1191.2, "text": "Speed is, I guess, a trade-off for this particular method with the QR codes, because it can be slow to, to transact between the two, cameras. so maybe Lightning doesn't quite work with this, but, you know, there's an idea out there and hopefully somebody can spin something off that solves the speed problem, and it can be instant." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "20:07", "start": 1206.89, "text": "And we know the Lightning Labs are definitely pursuing ideas around how to do things more securely and, yeah, bringing keys offline and that kind of thing. so yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:15", "start": 1215.44, "text": "Yeah, that's cool. So then maybe what" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:21", "start": 1221.44, "text": "For the kind of bigger than a typical Lightning send, and then like the cold. So you kind of, you'd have like a multi-sort of stage, your layers of, yeah, yeah," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "20:31", "start": 1231.19, "text": "yeah, completely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So what, what's this space?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:36", "start": 1235.69, "text": "Yeah, a-and I'm wondering with, oh, yeah, the other, that's the other thing, it's, it also kind of reminds me of CK Bunker, right? So that's another cold card project, and it's like this idea that you could set up, I had it, and it was kind of this idea that you can roll your own co-signer, right? And so it's sort of a similar idea there that it got integrated into one of the node projects, and, you know, I guess it's kind of like a, in a similar vein to that." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "21:03", "start": 1263.47, "text": "Yeah, I, the CK bunker actually is one, I, I, we'd missed that one because we were looking around for this, I guess it's hard 'cause we were looking for hot wallet, automated hot wallets with offline keys, which is kind of the, the problem we was A different scenario to what we were looking for, so we never came across that, and that was one that I didn't come across. and there's been a lot of comments on it from people saying, \"Go and look at CK bunker, it's sort of similar, setup.\" So I, that's one I do need to go off and look at still. I haven't had the time to look at that, but, yeah, that sounds interesting." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "21:36", "start": 1296.27, "text": "Yeah. But yeah, I think seeing it, these kind of things integrated with" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "21:43", "start": 1302.87, "text": "the, the node projects is, Lightning feeding chickens, it can actually turn into something, you know," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "21:55", "start": 1315.1, "text": "of note. Yeah. I think with Umbrel as well, it's allowing, obviously, it's more people running nodes, more decentralization, and, and all the, the good things that come from that. And I think as time goes on as well, we've now got the, the Umbrel piece where it is very easy to set up and run your own node, and it sits there running and, and you don't really have to-- There's no maintenance, it just sits there running." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "22:21", "start": 1341.48, "text": "Talking about, you know, actually reducing the Raspberry Pis down just to the little chips and, and tiny screens, which maybe we can then, encompass into a, a, a tiny box almost, and that box could be your, effectively your Umbrella Note, but it just sits in the corner of your house and, and you can run it and operate everything you need to off that, in a secure, trusted manner. So there, that, that will eventually come, and I know we see, you've got smart TVs, smart fridges, and things like that, and" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "22:49", "start": 1368.56, "text": "eventually, The game on any kind of electronic device with a screen." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "22:54", "start": 1373.88, "text": "Yeah. so it'd be quite an interesting one to see, can it run Bitcoin, and so run Bitcoin on any device around the world, and hopefully that's the future where, yeah, your light bulb is, is running a Bitcoin node, for example. Hahaha. so yeah, that'd be interesting to see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:07", "start": 1387.05, "text": "And, I guess the, the other thing from CK Bunker is that idea of policy rules. And so just like you were mentioning, Zach, that you might whitelist certain addresses," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:21", "start": 1401.28, "text": "From this device to say no more than, you know, fifty million sats in a twenty-four hour period, that kind of-- you can build these sort of policy rules into the offline device to then, yeah, rate limit the withdrawals to sort of--" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "23:33", "start": 1413.47, "text": "Yeah, exactly. And then th-those can be changed depending on, like, say, an exchange, depending on their comfortability with how much exposure they want, like, say, certain volumes can go to like a manual sign-off and, yeah, address whitelist and mitigation helps at the end of the day, doesn't" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "23:48", "start": 1428.48, "text": "it? Yeah. Yeah. I Fred was, the, the Blockstream satellite and receiving transactions from there, and, and that means we could run a Bitcoin Core full node on there, which I don't know if somebody will class that as offline at that point because you've got a satellite kinda connected and pulling in, so maybe that's, debatable. But yeah, little things like that, which seems crazy, but, you know, maybe that's the way that, that's the way innovation's created and how it, how it happens. we'll just keep playing and we'll" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:17", "start": 1456.76, "text": "see what else we There are different, obviously people like you and me and my listeners, we're all more hardcore Bitcoin people, but for the people who aren't like us, they, they want things like insurance companies to be comfortable with it, they want regulators to be comfortable with it, and maybe these are some of the innovations that help get those people over the line so that they change their minds and say, okay, I'm working in some insurance company, and now that I've seen this new security technique, maybe I'll start to offer insurance or lower the premiums available on it, that kind of aspect." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "24:51", "start": 1490.64, "text": "Yeah, completely. I think insurance is a big one. We've, over the years, obviously we've been mentioned before, we were founded in 2014, so we've been running since then, and we've pretty much since then spoken to various insurance companies, banks, obviously is a whole different ballgame, and we speak to them all the time. but the insurance companies, yeah, we-- originally there was like, there was no chance of insurance, it was just a, a blank no. Then as time progressed, we've gotten to, they'll insure cold storage, but For the cold storage to actually be insured, and you had to do certain things to make sure it was all insured. And then at that point, it's slowly adapted now to, they've become more comfortable with, as technology's moved on and the, the processes for cold storing bitcoins has moved on and, and developed. And similar now, we are starting to see insurance companies now starting to insure hot wallets up to certain levels and, they're slowly easing, easing off. And as you say, it's completely correct, as, as time moves on and technology, becomes I think we even had, was it, one of the guys in here, the, the morning after the announcement of Hoffline, they went into school to drop the kids off and got stopped in the playground by somebody who actually worked in a bank and was then asking about Hoffline and what it, how it works and everything. So that is, is a good step in, stepping forwards in the right direction." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:09", "start": 1569.01, "text": "So actually, I'm curious then on your view, Danny, what institutions are there that are still blocking and that we need, you know, the industry broadly, the Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:21", "start": 1581.24, "text": "That kind of company or institution is okay with us." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "26:25", "start": 1585.14, "text": "I think banks are the, always the big one, for the most part. The piece that I guess prevents a lot of people around the world, being able to gain exposure to Bitcoin, obviously the regulators as well, of course, are a sticking point for some countries. we're seeing in the UK already at the minute, I think this week, with, was it this week, NatWest announcement, or there's not an announcement, but there's a leak from NatWest that they're gonna stop anybody being able to you know, it's quite a big bank in the UK, so, that would be a little bit of a backward step for us, and it's certainly a backward step for them. but that has actually come from, not from, it's kind of moved on from, they're not comfortable with it or they don't like it and it's used for crime and things like that, but it's, it's actually moved onto, something called APP fraud, which is, effectively people being scammed by maybe something like a romance scam or something along those They come to an exchange, they might bank at NatWest, for example, they send ten thousand pounds over to Coin Corner, they buy the Bitcoin with those, they send it off to this person who they believe is legitimate and, and all correct, and then they get scammed out of the, the ten thousand pounds. And it's the old traditional scams that have been around for centuries, it's nothing new, it's just as technology moves along, the, the scammers find new ways to create these scams effectively and to, to mask them, shall we call it" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "27:52", "start": 1672.04, "text": "is purely because of that. It's, it's not because they don't like Bitcoin and they don't like how it works or, anything along that, them lines. It's purely now because they're just trying to protect the customer in, in some way. Still, okay, that's not particularly, right, and maybe I don't know how to word that right in my eyes there, because it was just six hundred customers, that they were, had been scammed out of money for it, which is, is obviously a bad thing, and we don't want" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "28:21", "start": 1701.22, "text": "million being able to use this thing because of six hundred customers, and really they could put procedures and, and policies in place within their company to, try and handle these people going through the system better, but of course that costs them more money and more resources and more overhead, so they don't wanna do that. The easiest answer is just to, to ban it and stop it. But I do think, having said that, we've had a lot of pushback from HSBC as an example, one again, sorry, I'm going off on banks." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:47", "start": 1727.02, "text": "Yeah, but I mean One of the big banks, for people who don't know, I think they stopped people buying it using credit cards and things like that, but they didn't stop them with, you know, sending their own money, but I think they were also wary about the whole romance scams and other scams. But unfortunately for us in this industry, bad things will happen and then Bitcoin gets blamed. They'll say, \"Oh, see, Bitcoin, it was a Bitcoin scam,\" when it's no, it was a romance scam or it was a, you know, the typical Nigerian prince scam or one" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "29:16", "start": 1755.64, "text": "of The UK have done the same, they don't allow the credit cards, or most of them don't allow credit card purchases now, but they'll allow you to send your own money, whereas NatWest now are just saying they're not gonna allow you to send your own money as well, which is kind of, yeah, Bitcoin solves this, angle really. Yeah. but, yeah, HSBC has been an interesting one where they've been blocking, they've not come out with an announcement or anything, but they have been blocking certain customers," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "29:52", "start": 1791.62, "text": "leave HSBC and move to another bank because of that, and he's, you know, high net worth, high value customer to them, and he's looking to leave the bank and, and move elsewhere. So I think with the likes of NatWest doing that, they're playing a dangerous game there. The, the, they may think it's a quick solution to block six million people being able to buy Bitcoin through, via their bank, but actually how many customers are they gonna lose due to that, rather than them spending a little bit of extra," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "30:18", "start": 1817.86, "text": "resource" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "30:21", "start": 1821.2, "text": "experienced talking to people of, so the bank, bank blocks them trying to buy Bitcoin and they go into the branch, talk to the person for weeks and days saying it's fine, it's clear that it's not a scam, and they still refuse to, send the money, which is, you know, at the end of the day, it's the, that person's money there." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "30:37", "start": 1836.69, "text": "I think one of the things as well, as, as, as an exchange, we're a smaller exchange compared to the likes of Coinbase and Binance and things, so, on the way through, and we'll do manual checks as well. We actually do spend the time and the effort to catch these to protect the customer, and a lot of the time we have saved people, and once we explain to them, for us, I guess in the industry, we see these scams day in, day out, and we know, you know, if the customer can just tell us, okay, I'm sending the Bitcoin onto this website, we have a quick look at the website, we can tell them within thirty seconds whether that's a scam or not," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "31:16", "start": 1875.74, "text": "and then they A refund almost back and, and withdraw the, the money back to the bank. so you know, we're doing that as a small company, we're doing that already. the banks could be doing the same thing, to protect their customers as well, but they're just not. it's kind of a, a quick solution is just ban it and ignore it for the time being again. Yeah. but yeah, I think it's all, all changing and, it's, it's moving the, the better" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:40", "start": 1900.27, "text": "direction definitely. Back to the Locked down, so you can think of it as a specialized device designed for holding your Bitcoin private keys and also signing messages when you need to spend. And the Coldcard is really versatile, you can use it as part of a single signature setup or as part of a multi-signature setup with, say, Unchained or Casa. The cold card has all sorts of features like the ability to use it totally airgapped, you don't have to directly plug it to the computer, so that gives you a lot of possibilities and flexibility there. So go and get yours at coinkite dot com and use the code livera to get a discount. Unchained Capital are building Bitcoin native financial services on a foundation of multi-signature. So multi-signature, it's often talked about, but a lot of people aren't ready to go there yet. And so if you're sitting on a single-signature hardware wallet setup, well, why don't you think about upgrading to multi-signature? You can remove single points of failure, you can have two hardware wallets and separate those locations so that you have additional security. So Unchained Capital have this vault that you can set it up with no setup or storage fees if you build it on your own. But on the other hand, if you need help, they've got a concierge service, so you can have them ship you two hardware wallets, they'll do calls with you, get you set up, set up your vault, and deposit a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in your vault. So use the code Livera to get a discount there. Unchained Capital are doing excellent things in this space with open source contributions as well as content, so go to Unchained dot com and find out more. Have you thought about Bitcoin backups and inheritance? CipherGrid is the new product available for pre-order by ciphersafe dot io. This is the best value in the industry. It's a metal seed backup product for your twenty-four seed words. It's got privacy by default. The two plates are facing each other to hide your seed words. It's stainless steel hardware. You get a tamper-evident seal provided and an automatic center punch provided. You can also lock it with a padlock. So there's lots of ways to help ensure that you or your loved ones can access your Bitcoin. Bitcoin's if something happens to you, while also giving you some additional points of security and, ability to know if it's been tampered with. And like all CipherSafe products, it's made from stainless steel, it's fireproof, rustproof, and waterproof. So go to CipherSafe dot io to order yours and use the code Livera for a discount. Back to the show. One thing that brings up for me is we have these conversations and often we're talking about really technical things and, you know, it's typically conversations with developers or very tech-savvy. Hardcore infu- you know, people who are gonna actually go and do the work. And then if you talk to, if you go to like a Bitcoin meetup and you're talking to a new coiner or even, you know, to someone on the street, their level of technical knowledge or competence, like they might not even be using a password manager. They might, you know, you, you try to impress on them the importance, hey, write down these twelve words, write down these twenty-four words and keep them very safe, don't show anyone, and they'll lose it, right? And We want people to be fully self sovereign, but then how much of that is like we're trying to, you know, h-h-do things for people." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "34:55", "start": 2095.13, "text": "I think we're, we're literally having a, a kind of a similar conversation yesterday just about money in general and how a lot of the world, certainly I didn't, I don't know, Danny didn't, when you're growing up, you don't get taught how money works and what fractional reserve banking is and all that kind of thing. So I think it's hard for then when you're trying to orange pill someone to them, for those I think so. We usually go at an angle, you teach them how money works, and then they, they come up, then they work out themselves. It's better that way if they come up with the," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "35:26", "start": 2126.01, "text": "the idea themselves rather than preaching at somebody. I think kind of when anyone asks me questions, I generally go back with questions back to them rather than answer the questions to help them think for themselves and come up with the answer themselves rather than me pushing the answer on them, 'cause people don't like to be pushed information on, they like to come up with that solution and answer themselves, and then" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "35:49", "start": 2148.66, "text": "I think we found over the years to kind of, as Zach's saying there, educate them or help push them in the direction of actually going learn about what money is and how it works and how the economy works, a basic level at least, and that, that gives them, kind of opens their eyes into what Bitcoin is and how that works, and, then they come back with the more interesting questions at that point, and you can have the conversation a bit better with them. And yeah, I think it'd be great for everybody to, to run their own and handle their own, node you'll never get a hundred percent of the population of the globe running it and using it, all from their own nodes and their own hardware, software, whatever you wanna call that, that perspective. But so what you end up with is companies maybe like ourselves or, or Coinbase and the likes, where people will need to go to Coinbase and will need to, sign up and buy Bitcoin there and hold the Bitcoin there, and they don't want to have to look after it themselves. People, my, my, my saying that I always say in the office" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "36:49", "start": 2208.62, "text": "Generalization, the, there's a great example of the, the webcam and how the webcam was created, and in laziness drives innovation and creates innovation. and the webcam was created because the, the guys at, was it Cambridge University? One of the universities, they, they had a, a coffee machine or a coffee pot in a different office to where they were working, and they didn't wanna get up to go and check when it was ready or when it was empty each time, so they decided to, they created a webcam to watch it basically, to If it needed filling up or, or either. So, you know, it does create innovation, the laziness, but people are lazy and people don't want to have to deal and learn and do these things themselves. So I think unfortunately, we will always have some form of, custodial services out there that are looking after, customer funds, and, you know, that also does come with the benefits of, nicer, smoother products sometimes and nicer integrations of things. So, there's not all, it's" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "37:43", "start": 2263.48, "text": "not all downsides Of, for the people that wanna go down it, 'cause it's very overwhelming trying to learn all this stuff as a no coiner, if, you know, if you're learning straight away about, private keys and seed words and, you know, st-storing it yourself, the custodial services are like a gateway drug really, e-easy to use website, they're used to using websites, and then, then once they've got a bit of Bitcoin, they go down the rabbit hole and, if they want to, go and set up their own" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "38:19", "start": 2298.62, "text": "80% of the country there are unbanked, and, you know, they don't have the bank account and, and custodian already, so they're used to effectively having everything themselves. So, you know, I, I assume and imagine they'll quite heavily move down the non-custodial route. I appreciate they're using, some of them are using Strike at the minute and things, which is custodial, but there's plenty of Lightning wallets out there now that are non-custodial that they can use, very easy as well, like the likes of Phoenix and Breeze" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:43", "start": 2323.28, "text": "and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:49", "start": 2328.62, "text": "A year ago or half a year ago, you did those videos where you showed Lightning live between like three people, and you would send, I, I can't remember how much, maybe two hundred dollars between, you know, one A to B to C, just like, like that. And I think it's so cool because, you know, it just shows-- Because sometimes you'll be having some discussion on Twitter, and someone will be like, \"Oh, Lightning doesn't work,\" and it's like, \"Oh yeah.\" And then I would go and like quote tweet your that video and be like, Tell us a little bit about that." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "39:20", "start": 2359.62, "text": "Yeah, I think, exactly what you're saying. I love the, the whole thing when people say, \"Well, Lightning doesn't work,\" and then you show them, just show them it working. Or I've even got people to just sit there with me and say, \"Download Phoenix Wallet, and I'll send you some now,\" and it's like, then they, they argue, \"Well, it's custodial.\" I'm like, \"No, it's not. It's non-custodial now as well, that.\" And you can And it does work. And we made a point, we did the one there that you're talking about with three of us, I think that was myself, yourself, and Zach, sorry, and Matt was it? Yeah. And then we did one where we got, I think there's twelve of us in a circle, and there's all twelve of us stood around in a circle, and we made the point of everybody, we sent, it was only like ten dollars worth of Bitcoin from the very start, and from person one," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "40:13", "start": 2413.38, "text": "all the way around to person twelve, and the 12 people and the 12 wallets, but we also made a, a point of using different wallets between each person, so you could see that it was, even if people would say, \"Oh, well, they're using Custodial and it's Phoenix to Phoenix to Phoenix, \" then actually, no, we made a point of going from Phoenix to wallet of Satoshi to Breeze to, Eclair to like back around in circles, so it was always leaving, effectively a, a Custodial, a Custodian, at that point. So it was, again At the minute is, is still slow and takes time, and that's natural with any technology, that's just the way it happens. but I think especially with the El Salvador thing, that's a real eye opener for people, and I think we've seen, quite a few of them now doing exactly the same sort of videos and paying for coffee with Lightning and things, and, you know, it just, it's, it's showing people, the video is so much more powerful sometimes than a lot of words on, on the screen, just showing them how it works." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "41:14", "start": 2473.86, "text": "A" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "41:19", "start": 2478.62, "text": "You know, what's going on, any issues? It was like, no, it just works. It's, it's just, just as simple as that. It's- So we" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "41:25", "start": 2484.79, "text": "have, we have periodic calls with them just to touch base and, like with, usually with Ryan and, Alex, Ryan Gentry and, and Alex Bosworth and, sort of going through and it is literally them conversations, they're kind of like, they're looking for problems so they can help improve the product and improve LND, but we get to a point where But then what we actually introduced at the start of this year, we introduced Lightning, to our exchange piece of the business. We used to have it on the gateway only, so our merchants could pay, your customers could pay the merchants in Lightning. So it was only one way traffic effectively with that. What we've now got with the exchange going in and out, so we can do deposits and withdrawals for customers, it kind of balances itself out a little bit. So we've, we've not even needed to loop" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "42:09", "start": 2529.18, "text": "out or maintenance-wise, yeah, it's very little from us, which is" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "42:13", "start": 2532.84, "text": "surprising, Pretty much balances itself to an extent, yeah. Yeah, it balances itself out. So it's very little maintenance and, and upkeep to be quite honest to keep it ticking over. So this is what frustrates us when we see other, particularly bigger exchanges say, you know, they don't have the time and the resource to add lightning and things, and it's complicated and, and all this, but they'll add all these altcoins and, and crack on with them, because it makes them money, it's a revenue generating, thing for the altcoins, whereas lightning's a short" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "42:49", "start": 2568.66, "text": "Yeah, it's, it's not that complicated to, if you're running a Bitcoin wallet yourself, then it's not that much more difficult to, to add Lightning in. I think the, the difficult piece, which I do appreciate from a larger company like Coinbase, I think Kraken have been struggling with that recently, is not Lightning itself as such, it's bringing Lightning into their systems and into their system, which is a, quite a, a substantial size system. I think that's the piece that's slowing them all down from what I can tell." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "43:16", "start": 2596.16, "text": "so It's their systems, their internal systems themselves. Yeah, good point. Yeah, hopefully more will adopt it as time goes on as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:24", "start": 2604.23, "text": "Yeah, and, I like that you've kind of got that natural balance going there, operating a, basically a payment processing Lightning, pro- basically a Lightning payment processor for merchants, and then on the other side, some customers who might wanna receive in Lightning. So that's kind of like you're gonna, you know, receive in from them and spend out to the other, to the exchange customers," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "43:46", "start": 2625.94, "text": "right? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, So little maintenance, so I think for some of the big exchanges as well, I appreciate they may be cracking, for example, maybe bigger volumes and bigger sizes, and they'll have to run multiple nodes, lightning nodes, but, you know, if once you've got enough liquidity in there and you're comfortable with it, it will probably balance itself out fifty-fifty for the most part." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "44:03", "start": 2642.67, "text": "And, and if it doesn't, the services like Pool and Loop, which are now becoming automated services as well, Lightning Labs are doing a good job on getting everything automated, you can set it up" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:19", "start": 2658.64, "text": "Do live day to day on Lightning or is it kind of more like most of the time people are stacking to their, you know, hardware wallet or their multisig kind of thing? Because one thing I've been thinking about is like when you like have a Lightning interaction with an exchange, unless you're directly spending it out, it's kind of maybe it doesn't make sense to kind of receive, receive, receive over Lightning and then flush it out on chain in the Lightning wallet. I mean, maybe you would, but like the channel capacities might not work for that. I, I'm curious if you have any" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "44:49", "start": 2688.68, "text": "So I was thinking in my head, I was trying to think of our numbers of percentage-wise of customers, doing Lightning. Yeah, I don't," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "44:55", "start": 2694.95, "text": "I don't think we, we don't probably have too many living-- I guess our customer base is UK and, Europe as well. So for the majority of our customers, they are, as you say, they're, they're buying Bitcoin and, and withdrawing it to hold themselves, or they're buying it and holding it with us. So there's not many, I would say, that are living off" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "45:16", "start": 2716.1, "text": "Lightning, for some And they're holding that with us or they're doing something, with that. So there is certainly an uptick at the minute in terms of Lightning usage of customers actually just receiving Lightning payments" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "45:27", "start": 2727.01, "text": "coming in and, and only using Lightning as well, which is what we like to see, a Lightning only Coin Corner" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "45:40", "start": 2740.08, "text": "user. Yeah" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:49", "start": 2748.62, "text": "Channel capacities or, I guess, I mean, if you're using these, you know, the Phoenix, Breeze, and Moons of the world, it probably just automatically balances things out and manages over time, right? Once you've done those first few channel opens and closes and things, it just kind of, it kinda just works. But maybe if your first transaction is maybe only five hundred sats, then that might get eaten up by channel open and, so there's little complexities there, maybe they have to start with custodial if they're in a very small amount, but once they've Then they're ready to go full, you know, a bit more sovereign, right?" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "46:22", "start": 2781.77, "text": "Yeah, I think, yeah, definitely is, is an issue, should we call it, for the channel balancing, but I think that's again one of them things as, as time moves on, these things change and what Breeze and Phoenix and, and the guys have done with, it's not one necessarily, method, is it, but with, turbo channels and, trampoline payments and things, the way they've kind of bundled all them together to make the product of what I think I, I tested one the other day, it was, with Phoenix, was actually it might've been a co- come off the back of the conversation with yourself, on Twitter, and it was about, how you can get somebody to download Phoenix and basically send them a Lightning payment straight away, and then with that payment, I sent, I think it was ten thousand sats was maybe the minimum, and I sent, they took a three thousand sat fee, which was effective with the channel opening, but it was, they could use it because" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "47:19", "start": 2838.62, "text": "Information for the channel to be created on, on the on-chain on the blockchain." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "47:22", "start": 2842.19, "text": "And I think with, custodial services like ourselves, I, I remember when we kind of launched our lightning, we had a few questions around, is it in a different account? How does it work, you know, in the dashboard? But it's just your Bitcoin in your account, and you can use it either on lightning or on chain. It's like just one account. There's, there's no need to put it onto lightning and then do it, which is the benefits of custodial" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "47:49", "start": 2868.84, "text": "That will easier to use for the lazy, shall we call it? They don't even have to think" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "47:52", "start": 2871.89, "text": "about channels and that kind of thing. Yeah, and the" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "47:54", "start": 2873.95, "text": "ones that then don't want to keep it with a custodian and they wanna do it themselves, then they can deal with the channel openings and things, which, as we appreciate at the minute, it's still new technology and then there is hiccups or speed bumps that you have to get over to, to kind of, make use, full use of it, shall we say. But it's, it's getting easier and" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "48:19", "start": 2898.62, "text": "Strike obviously, they've quite nailed their UX, I think. everyone seems to love it. I've never been able to try the Strike app out myself because, we're not US, but everyone seems to love it, which is great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:28", "start": 2908.49, "text": "Yeah, that's cool to see. I'm also curious as well, I mean, we're talking about Lightning, what are your thoughts on the mempool, of late? Do you believe that, let's say, SegWit and batching and maybe Lightning use are actually making a real difference now and actually that might be" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:49", "start": 2928.66, "text": "Or do you think it kind of, it just kind of balances out over time?" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "48:51", "start": 2931.31, "text": "Yeah, it's a hard one to predict, isn't it? 'Cause obviously at the start of the year with the price movements, the mempool didn't empty for three or four months, and then now you look now it's, emptying all the time. And I think with the likes of Blockchain Dot Com recently, support SegWit and we saw a massive bump in, SegWit percentage, finally, yeah. Now just Taproot again. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "49:19", "start": 2958.62, "text": "There's a combination, I think, of a lot of things. I think Lightning, yes, definitely for me, is a, a contributor to that, and, and maybe, don't know how significant that is at the minute. But the bit" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "49:27", "start": 2966.81, "text": "refill stuff from the other day, was incredible. They managed to save what I think we worked out was" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "49:32", "start": 2972.45, "text": "two, two blocks from the day, of the transactions. I think it was more than that actually, 'cause I think they got some of their numbers wrong. Yeah. So" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "49:38", "start": 2978.02, "text": "that's direct," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "49:39", "start": 2979.28, "text": "numbers there on, yeah. So Of, of space, on that day, on one particular day. So it's like, you know, you can see the scale of that, and actually if they were all unchained, then that's two extra blocks with the data that was getting piled into the, the mempool" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "49:59", "start": 2999.23, "text": "effects with, and then the, the fees of all those block, the, all those transactions would have been significantly higher than the, the lightning fees. So" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "50:06", "start": 3005.88, "text": "without a doubt, we are seeing that, and there is proof now and there's evidence to see that, which is good. But I do think" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "50:19", "start": 3018.64, "text": "You'll see things if you're looking at Google Trends and people searching for Bitcoin, we see that from, customers hitting the website. We had a, probably had a quite a slowdown probably over the last month, maybe, in terms of registrations, and it started to pick back up again at the minute with the, the recent drop, but not quite the level it was January, February, March at the start of this year. so I think we, we as an industry, we see this all the time. You have the, the spikes and the peaks of interest, and then it" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "50:49", "start": 3049.0, "text": "And we need, we need obviously layer two for that scalability. we all remember, even though I was fairly new to the industry in twenty seventeen, the, the mempool was, crazy, yeah, and the price went mental. Yeah, yeah, I joined at a great time. Yeah, yeah, it was like, it" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "51:03", "start": 3062.73, "text": "was, it was good fun. The backlog was the biggest it's ever been, and it was, yeah, it was chaos, and that was just after the, the" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "51:11", "start": 3070.9, "text": "hard fork, the SegWit two x stuff. And then look how far we Segwit and Lightning adoption and that kind of thing. So we have seen direct impact there, just takes time, doesn't it? yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:25", "start": 3085.03, "text": "yeah, yeah, great examples there with Bitrefill on their own taking out two blocks. And I know, Nicholas from Bitcoin Beach or from Galloy Money, the, the people, the team behind Bitcoin Beach's wallet, he, he mentioned recently that they had a day where they had, I think it was seven thousand transactions, of which only fourteen, or I think roughly fourteen, went on chain. So that's, you know, There, although, although like you, like we're saying, it's, it's still early days, and it's not the only factor, as you said, the industry has its, ups and downs and flows based on, you know, the, the price, and, that's always a factor there. one other area I was keen to actually touch on, I just thought of this as well, is around Bitcoin Core contributions. I know this is one of those things where some exchanges and Bitcoin companies choose to fund a, a development organization, but, as" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "52:19", "start": 3138.62, "text": "Yeah, sure. That's-- so what we did with that was, I, I've always been very-- I'm a software developer by trade, so I'm a techie, and I always get actively involved in that side of things, and I've always been from the early days, I was very much, should we call it a lurker, and I was always paying attention to it, and I was looking at GitHub and doing things from a distance, should we call it, but I never really got hands on with it and actually got stuck in. So, new customers every day, so, you know, we, we are contributing our, our contribution to the industry as a whole is, is onboarding new bitcoins every day, but we wanted to do a little bit more and get involved from the tech side, so we sat down, we had a couple of, we, we spent a couple of weeks, didn't we, went through, yeah, with the sum, with all our tech team and talked through, Jimmy Song's book, Jimmy Song's Programming Bitcoin, Programming Bitcoin, and we went through that just to show how" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "53:19", "start": 3198.62, "text": "Try and encourage the guys to look to Bitcoin Core and actually contribute something and, and get involved. And what we wanted to do with that was not necessarily get involved at the, the level of, we're not going in there, changing the, yeah, creating a new taproot version and things like that, yeah, changing the protocol on day one. the idea was to kind of, we wanted, we ended up writing a couple of, tutorials of how to contribute and how to do it, and we wanted to do some contributions to be able to write the articles to push that out to other" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "53:49", "start": 3228.62, "text": "Reviewers, so you're not just, it's not just always about writing the code and, and submitting that, committing that, it's always the reviewers are the ones that we lack, I guess from the Bitcoin Core contribution side, so even if it was just to encourage people to look over other people's code and review that code, we wanted to try and push that angle and get more and more people involved in it." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "54:07", "start": 3246.88, "text": "I think we, we saw a bit of a gap missing in documentation there as well of a few of our tech team and even probably me and Danny Standard development, so even the process of, you know, using Git and GitHub and, and pull requests and that kind of thing, so we thought the tutorial we wrote would, would help people with that. And then we are still in the background, especially myself, still actively trying, trying to, contribute just at trivial level, got a couple of PRs open and have a look at when I get some spare time, yeah," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "54:38", "start": 3278.4, "text": "the one that's open in a minute, hopefully we commit it soon, yeah, which is to help prevent people reusing" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "54:48", "start": 3287.54, "text": "addresses, from, yeah, It out and says this address has been used, so quite trivial and simple, but actually quite, quite handy and, and" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "54:54", "start": 3293.95, "text": "what it is, yeah. so the idea, I guess, was to be more hands on and, and get actively involved and kinda not put the money where my mouth is, but sort of, you know, really contribute and be involved in that rather than just, we, we do as well contribute to funding some of the developers, smaller scale, not quite the scale that Kraken and, and Coinbase might be throwing around there, but, we do Not necessarily we're doing that just to avoid contributing to the other guys, we do that as well, yeah. but it was kind of, again, another one of things of trying to help encourage more people and inspire more people to, to get involved in these things and, and the more we can onboard in that manner, the better it becomes for the ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "55:34", "start": 3334.03, "text": "I think Bitcoin Core funding, like, it is very, very important, and then you see the, these big companies go and it's kind of, but it does seem like it's the easy way out for them to" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "55:49", "start": 3348.64, "text": "Directly here, whereas we wanted to get hands on, you know, understand, understand Bitcoin at that level. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "55:54", "start": 3354.17, "text": "It's encouraging us to keep, I keep banging on about, it's encouraging more and more people hopefully to, to do that. And we've, we have got the tutorials for, Windows development side and Mac development side that we released, which kind of talk you through how to do a, pull request and how to commit it and how to get your first, commit on Bitcoin Core effectively, using our examples of what we did to" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "56:19", "start": 3378.7, "text": "works and how you even set up the development environment and everything. So again, that was hopefully, it was fairly, good feedback on that, wasn't it, which was good and hopefully encouraged more to, to jump in and get involved." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:28", "start": 3387.53, "text": "Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, if you give me those links, I can put those in the show notes for this episode. So that'll be stephanelivera dot com slash two eight six. And for any other listeners, if you're interested, I've got episodes with, developers as well. You might be interested in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:49", "start": 3408.62, "text": "Any, closing comments for the listeners out there, and where can they find you guys online?" }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "56:53", "start": 3413.49, "text": "Go on, Danny. Show your Twitter account." }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "56:57", "start": 3417.03, "text": "I get this in the office all the time. yeah, mainly for me, Twitter, coin corner danny. so yeah, always, happy to answer questions, talk generally on there, twenty-four seven anyway. Same, yeah. Coin corner zakk, z a k k. Spelled slightly different to everyone else. Yeah. So yeah, always on there, always active, closing comments. I'm trying to An inspirational thing. Yeah, I, I was almost about to steal, Jack Ma's, \"We Will Die on This Hill. \" but I think, yeah, generally, I'm hoping the, the likes of Offline for me and what that is, is very much a research and development project and what I keep talking about there, wanting to inspire others to, jump in and get involved and show people that, you know, we're a small company compared to the, the guys out there and we're still able to do these things and come up with these things" }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "57:49", "start": 3468.82, "text": "And do these things themselves and, and try these things. you don't even have to be a developer to, to get on board and do various things within the industry and, and help the ecosystem and the infrastructure. there's lots and lots of different, areas that you can get involved in. so yeah, get involved." }, { "speaker": "zakk_lakin", "time": "58:02", "start": 3482.09, "text": "Fix the money, fix the world. There we go." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:04", "start": 3484.38, "text": "Yeah, so one of you is stealing Jack Ma's and the other one's stealing off Marty Baron, We can't call it Nari, give us some. They've, they But, thanks very much for joining me, guys. Thank you so much," }, { "speaker": "danny_scott", "time": "58:21", "start": 3501.01, "text": "Stefan. Really appreciate it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:23", "start": 3502.57, "text": "So I hope you're enjoying the show. Make sure you share the show with your new coiner family and friends so they can learn about Bitcoin. You can find me online at Stefan Livera on Twitter, and my DMs are open if you've got questions as well. Thanks for listening, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }