{ "episodeId": "SLP304", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "knut_svanholm": { "name": "Knut Svanholm", "role": "guest", "tag": "KNUT" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.21, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. So today, for episode 304, I have now recovered from COVID, I'm still in Sri Lanka for the rest of the month, and I recorded with Knut Svanholm. So he is a Bitcoin writer, and he's been writing and talking about various ideas, such as this idea that you aren't ready, and that none of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:36", "start": 35.8, "text": "None." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00", "start": 60.0, "text": "Bitcoin dot com is the place to send them. It's really fast to set up, it's cheap to automate, and there's a definite focus on education, and that was part of why I wanted to join the team as well, because I knew that there is a need in this space to have a Bitcoin only on-ramp that's actually genuinely a great place to send your pre-coiner and to new coiner friends, and if they are a high net worth or a corporate or a business, we've got Swan Private. So Swan Private allows one on one access to a dedicated Bitcoin account expert who will help that person get them onboarded. So send your friends to swanbitcoin dot com slash lavera. Lend at hodl hoddle is a peer to peer Bitcoin backed lending platform where you can borrow or lend out stablecoins globally and anonymously using Bitcoin as collateral. So with lend at hodl hoddle, you no longer need to sell your Bitcoin to get some short term liquidity. You can borrow stablecoins against your Bitcoin and you still control your collateral in escrow throughout that whole deal. Stablecoin owners can earn To make extra interest by lending their stablecoins out, and you define the terms and the APR for that deal. HoddleHoddle's lending platform is currently going through a major upgrade with many improvements to be made available by the end of the month, so go and sign up at lend.hoddlehoddle.com with the promo code September to get a fifty percent discount on the platform's origination fee once the lending functionality is available again. If you've ever been interested in getting involved with Bitcoin mining, Compass Mining can help you out. If you go to compassmining.io, you can start your journey there, where you select an ASIC, and they've got different machines available at the moment. They've got Ant Miners available, and they've also got a bundle deal available also. So you can select your ASIC machine there, and you can select a hosting facility that has already been vetted by the Compass Mining team. Then it's a matter of you selecting which mining pool and joining that, that pool, and then finally- You'll receive Bitcoin, your machines will be hashing and you're mining, and payouts are sent to your wallet from your mining pool. So this is a great way to get started. You can access industrial power rates and facilities that have already been vetted by the Compost Mining team. It's a great way to get started. So go to Compost Mining dot io. Now onto the show with Knut. Knut, welcome to the show. Thank you, Stefan. Been, been wanting to speak to you for a while. Yeah, it has been one of those months. I've been trying to make it happen for a little while, but just things kept coming up, and, you know, now I'm in Sri Lanka, and the time came, and I was, excited to get to chat with you about Bitcoin and various aspects of it, and of course, we'll have to get into this infinity over twenty-one million at some point as well, which I'm sure we'll get to You're a writer in the Bitcoin space, you're a speaker, and you've also been interested in Austrian economics as well. So why don't we start there?" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "03:49", "start": 229.26, "text": "Yeah, we, we have a lot in common. Like, you're a singer too. I'm, I used to be a singer, or I am a singer in a way. I, I guess you don't stop being a singer. And, speaking of Sri Lanka, my, my parents always told me I was conceived there. They went on, on a honeymoon to Sri, to Sri Lanka in" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "04:11", "start": 250.61, "text": "1976. Libertarian leaning, and, you know, argue from first principles and don't believe that anyone should have a, a right to, to more violence than anyone else, just as you. And, I'm, interested in, been interested in Austrian economics and Bitcoin for quite a while, so, yeah, so we're, we're almost the same person. Did you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:33", "start": 273.0, "text": "start with Austrian economics before you got into Bitcoin? Were you like that or were you the other way around?" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "04:39", "start": 278.79, "text": "I think I was Austro-curious maybe before, before Bitcoin. But I, before Bitcoin, I couldn't really-- I didn't have a coherent picture of, what was wrong with the world and why. I, I, I knew that something was wrong, but I couldn't really get it through my head. Bitcoin came along and things started to make more sense and started to become a bit more depressing. Of course. and then I, I read the Bitcoin Standard, al-almost at the same time as I was writing my book, and, that got, got me going quite a bit as well. And, when I finally read Human Action, that's like the nail on the head. That's, like the most life-changing book I've ever read, I think, and the best book I ever read. So if you haven't read, Human Action by Ludwig von Mises, do so. It, it only takes about thirty" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:34", "start": 333.91, "text": "Yeah, that's, I mean, people throw a lot of shade about these, so-called thousand page tomes, but really, once you've gone through it, it makes a huge difference. And look, for people who maybe they're not ready to go through the, you know, whatever, have nine hundred pages or however much it is, if you start with something like Bob Murphy's book, Choice, which is like a modern short form version of that. Of course, you know, the best, best is to go and actually read Human Action yourself as well. But, and that's something recommend for people who are maybe they just need something that can step-stepping stone them into the pathway of, reading about these things, because I think it really is there are a lot of things that the Austrians got that get right, that they-- and it's only the Austrians who can explain that" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "06:18", "start": 378.39, "text": "coherently. Exactly. And, I think also, \"Anatomy of the State\" by Rothbard, it's a short, concise book that helps a lot, that could help a lot of people. Absolutely," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:29", "start": 389.1, "text": "yeah, yeah. And so it's-- there's a Different, I guess, topics and themes that you can draw from. And so in the Austrian, canon, if you will, there's the books that are more economics based, and so I mean, Austrian economics meant-- is meant to be wertfrei, it's meant to be value-free, it's meant to just be, it's a statement of the economics. But then there is also the more political philosophy element of it, and that's the more libertarian aspects of it, where there's the Austrian economics aspects of it. And sometimes people can mesh them without understanding where they're different and where Mixed together, and so, but I can understand why, because it's often many of the same people, right? It's the same people making these, these different arguments, and they tend to hold both views that they are an Austrian in terms of how they view economics, but they are also a libertarian in terms of how they view political philosophy and rights and the question of, you know, our rights, do they, do we, are we given the rights by the state or do they exist antecedent, or do they exist outside of that, or perhaps it's a natural right? Rights, natural law approach or other approaches that libertarians take." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "07:36", "start": 456.45, "text": "Yeah, I, I had a conversation with Robert Breedlove about this and he came up with a brilliant sentence that praxeology is to the subjective what mathematics is to the objective. That's, that's, a, a good way of framing it, I think, because praxeology is the great missing school subject, which, like, arguing from first principles explains why people do stuff at all and why it's best to let people do stuff. non-violently, violently with each other. That's the best, that's the best way of, like, for human progress in general and for human, for maximizing human wellbeing, if you will. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:13", "start": 493.27, "text": "Yeah. And I can understand where people get confused because you might be thinking, like, as an example, it's possible to be an Austrian economist who isn't a libertarian, right? You might, yep, you know, you might theoretically, again, it's unlikely, but you might think that this is the most efficient way, but you might not necessarily take the libertarian aspect aspect of it, but, yeah, look, in practice, to" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "08:35", "start": 515.01, "text": "that point, they tend to be the same person, right? That, that makes me think of a, a, a famous moment in Ludwig von Mises' life where he, he was ha-having a meeting in a fancy hotel with all these other thinkers like Milton Friedman and Murray Rothbard and everyone, and he called, and Hayek and ev-everyone, and called them all, \"You're all socialists,\" and, and, ran out of the room because, because they By the way, I was listening to your debate with Pete Macomock about libertarianism, and, yeah? I, I, I enjoyed it a lot, but I was frustrated by one thing, and that is how, when arguing about-- and this is h-happens all the time, when you argue about a free market, versus a, a, an interventionist market or a, like another political system, we, we often forget that a, a truly free market has never, never really existed. That's, that's the thing, people say that was Real communism, but the thing is, that wasn't real capitalism. Real capitalism hasn't been tried yet, because before Be- Bitcoin, we've ha- we've never had a truly sound money, and not on a global scale. And that, that, that changes the playing field enormously. So, like, w-w-when I argue for, for libertarian principles, I, I, I always try to push the Bitcoin narrative into the equation, because without that, you can't really, it can't really work in reality, in my view. Because every other currency will always be inflationary, because no human can resist the tem-temptation of diluting the money supply." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:10", "start": 610.49, "text": "Right. Yeah, and I'm with you there. I think it's just, it's hard for us to make that argument to people because we're rightly having to point out to them, \"Hey, let's go live in this world that's never-- it's never happened before, right?\" And so-" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "10:22", "start": 621.9, "text": "No, no, it's, it's very hard. There's nothing to compare it to." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:25", "start": 625.02, "text": "That's where I think in practice you end up having to point to" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:32", "start": 632.32, "text": "And say, \"Oh, look, see, notice how these aspects of this society that existed before, even if it's imperfect, that could show an example of why a free market would do something better than, say, the statist approach, right? I mean, that's the" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "10:47", "start": 646.91, "text": "thing.\" Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It, it was not meant as a critique on, of your arguments, because I, I do agree with them, and I do agree that there are examples-- you have to draw, examples from, from real life and, and like from what But, but, but what, what is so hard to explain is, is that, we're approaching a completely new set of rules and that has never been tried before, and that, that will truly show people the power of the free market. Because I believe Bitcoin will, will benefit everyone. I go, more, the more people that go on a Bitcoin standard and like hyperbitcoinize themselves, the better it is for not only the Bitcoin hodlers, but for everyone, because the, the mechanisms that it allows for- Or will, will make production costs and transportation co- costs drop so rapidly that it, it benefits absolutely everyone, even those that never even heard of Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:44", "start": 703.67, "text": "Yeah, yeah, I'm with you there, I'm with you there, and I think this is one of those ones where it's difficult to explain because it's like we've lived all of our lives under a fiat inflationary world where the costs are rising over time, and so what does it mean to live in a world where we're living in growth deflation, right? And so someone like Jeff Booth does a good job at helping put that in a pop, you know, in like a pop economics way for people who maybe, if they haven't gone and read, you know, Mises and Rothbard and Guido Hulsmann and Philip Bargas and other people, reading The Price of Tomorrow might give them a clue as to what kind of world that might be like, because even, even for those of us like who are into Austrian economics, it can be hard to visualize really what would that world look like, because in some ways, to think about what it would be- Be, to have like sustained prices falling, i-it's quite a weird and mind-bending, idea in that way." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "12:41", "start": 760.73, "text": "I think it's impossible for human beings in general. Like, people have such a hard time, understanding exponentials. we're, we're wired to think in linear terms, and like- We're, we're so used to the fiat system, what, what that is, is that we're used to being robbed every second of every day of something, like a, a, a small piece of, a, a, a small theft of, of our belongings and our time, is happening. Every second of every day, to everyone. and lik-like removing that from the equation, will, will like not, not only relieve people of, of that That particular, bad thing that's happening to them, but, but also it will, like make the all these misallocations, of, of resources go, go away, more rapidly. Like b-because what, what in-interventionist economies ultimately lead to is the misallocation of resources. Resources don't end up where people want them, actually want them to end up, but they end up where some bureaucrat want them. Wants them to end up, and, that like hampers the, the entire machine, because like the, the, the free market-- I view the, the, a sound money f-global free market economy, that's like the only defense we, as humans, have against the rise of AI. This is our, this is our, artificial intelligence, if, if you want, the, or like our collective intelligence, We can only utilize, all of our brain powers, you know, combined power via the free market. That's, that's the, the weapon we have against the robots. Does that make sense?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:38", "start": 878.5, "text": "Although, I mean, you could say that, you know, the more, the free market might bring about a more AI, might bring about a lot more use of AI, and I, I think this is one of those things where even-- Absolutely. You know, that could, that could be a bad-- I mean, even just setting Bitcoin aside, right? That could just Be an example just there where, you know, and I think this is also another thing where we have to, where we-- I'm often careful to explain things because I'm often trying to teach people, don't think of it like it's like some utopian thing. It's better, but it's not perfect, you know? And yeah, bad things could still, and will still happen under the total free market world, right?" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "15:15", "start": 914.92, "text": "absolutely. but then again, I-- good things beyond our imagination could also happen. Yeah. Like, we don't know how, how powerful it could be because we've never experienced it before. We've, we've seen, like- similar experiments like the rice of Hong Kong, for instance, the last fifty years before, before the police state ta- took it away, again. But, what happened during those fifty years was, m- like Progress that no human could have foreseen. And, and this, the, the, the potential. I try to be an optimist, so, and I, I think there's a, there are rational arg-arguments for being optimistic even in, in the world we live in, because things turn out, often turn out better than we believe that they will also. We shouldn't forget that, especially not in these dark, police-staty, times." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:17", "start": 977.26, "text": "That's right, with, you know Governments have, some governments have literally never been more powerful than they are now, right? In terms of their surveillance capability, their capability to control the way people think In some ways, now they're able to control a lot of things about how, you know, the masses think about things, the messaging they receive. It, it is, very confronting in that way. but of course, I also do believe, you know, Bitcoin is going to fix a lot of these things, but it's, it's about- How do we get to that longer term vision? Because in that short and medium term, we still have to make it there, and so there's still gonna be all sorts of, drama on the way to get there." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "17:03", "start": 1023.19, "text": "It is problematic, isn't it? And I, yeah, I, I have to, tell you a story about when I flew home from Mexico. I was in Mexico about a month ago, at the Bitcoin Standard Conference. And when I flew home, the, like, the Southeast Asians were, were wearing masks on, in airports like ten years ago, right? So they, they, they sort of like started the trend and made it like, after a while you didn't notice it anymore, it became sort of a natural thing, and then over- The entire world wears masks when they fly. And when I flew back, I, I saw three Southeast Asian guys in full" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "17:40", "start": 1060.08, "text": "hazmat suits on the plane. Is that next? And I thought like, \"Uh, like, what are you doing, guys? Was it-- didn't you learn anything from the mask thing? Are you gonna really gonna push things, push things this far?\"" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "17:56", "start": 1076.48, "text": "Like, but I don't know if, yeah, I, I don't know even know if their a-ethnicity had something to do with it. That's, that's not the point. But I, I mean, of course not. It's, W- why trying to push the narrative even further in that direction? Can't you see what's happening here?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:15", "start": 1094.69, "text": "Some people are panicked, right? Yeah, they are. Some people are just that panicked. Yeah, they're so scared. And that's, that's the real shame. For, for a lot of the, a lot of this stuff is just they have been put into such a ridiculous state of hysteria that they will do anything. And so that also is an interesting question because it's like, where do we, where do you see that going longer term, or at least in the short- Short to medium term for freedoms and liberties in the world today. Now, part of the answer, I think, is, you know, going overseas, get-getting to other countries and other jurisdictions and having that competition, that hopefully that will enable people who want freedom, Bitcoiners typically, and others who, who want that freedom to try to get some of that. But I'm wondering, do you have any thoughts on where that's going?" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "19:04", "start": 1144.09, "text": "Yeah, I, I think it might go two different ways because there, there are the, o-different countries have had very different approaches to this. Australia and Sweden are two very good examples of that. And, and I think history will evaluate, like the future will evaluate what happened historically, and at some point, I, I believe the mask, all these mask mandates and everything, they might actually go away someday because people are so fed up with it, and there are protests everywhere, so there is a lot of pressure on the politicians to stop the madness, also. We shouldn't forget that, so it might end naturally. I know most Bitcoiners, Or most bitcoins, many bitcoiners think that we're, we're heading towards more and more police state things and more and more dystopian, and that might also happen. But, and if that happens, that will- Like push things like Bitcoin and, alternative ways of life, further, push, push those things even faster into the future, like, like flag theory, for instance, but more and more people will get a second passport and try to bypass things by doing Bitcoin and by, getting on tour and like using, not using the main social media platforms anymore, but alternative ones and everything. So, so there, there's, there's a perk to, to things getting- Darker as well, because, because it fuels the, the fire of, of those of us that, that want to, to get out of it. But then again, I think, governments can go too far, and there's, there's like a signal from the people there too, so it might be Trudeau, for instance, like the next election in, in Canada, maybe he, he gets voted out of office, and you get someone that is against all these, mandates, and, and all of a sudden Canada is back to sort of Of normal again? I don't know, who knows, right? yeah, it's hard to predict the future." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:06", "start": 1266.35, "text": "Of course, yeah. I mean, one challenge is that some of these government programs, once put in, they don't get taken away. Or as the famous Milton Friedman says, there's no such thing, there's no, no thing is as temp- as permanent as a temporary government program or even if you look at, which is a bit," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "21:22", "start": 1281.66, "text": "yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:22", "start": 1282.1, "text": "You know, war on terror, war on drugs, war on, you know, you name it, And then the other counterbalancing side is the competitive pressure, because people will leave if things get really bad." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "21:36", "start": 1296.27, "text": "Yeah. And to that point, I, I really, like, because, Friedman also talks about how institutions, once in place, fight for their own survival first and foremost. And those institutions that don't, they don't survive very long. It's an evolutionary process. So, so bureaucrats tend to find ways of, of, motivating their own ex- Existence. and this is a very bad thing, of course. But, but then again, there are some con-counter examples in history, like the fall of the Soviet Union is, one of my favorites. It's, it's, it, it just dissipated and, yeah, disappeared basically. say with East Germany, it just disappeared. what happened over time with East Germany and West Germany though is that, some of the West Germans, heard the stories from East Germany, oh Oh, like you have to pay for kindergarten here, we never had to pay for kindergarten. you, you have to pay for healthcare, we never had to pay for healthcare. so the West Germans started to vote for socialist policies because they forgot why, why they shouldn't in the first place. So in the long run, the, the, the ironic thing might be that the fall of the Berlin Wall makes, makes Germany more and more socialist again. And, so there's a balance there somewhere, I think. And, was it Reagan that said that we're only one generation away from losing our freedoms at all times? And I believe that to be very true, that if, if we want to, to live in- In free states or semi-free states at least, where you, where you can at, at least express your opinion, you need to fight for it every generation. It's a good thing to teach your kids." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:24", "start": 1403.67, "text": "Yeah, yeah, and I think it also does come into the whole conversation around homeschooling, unschooling, and things, this, this way of- trying to educate the next generation without having so much influence from the statists, obviously, who want to push things in a certain direction, and then those of us who actually want freedom have to push back the other way and actually do something about it." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "23:49", "start": 1428.83, "text": "Yeah, we, we should at least, if you, if you don't homeschool your kids, at least tell them what's wrong with the schooling system. Like, at least give them, give them a clue to why, why they shouldn't listen to everything their teacher says and why they should question everything, because that's the basis of it. Knowledge comes from, first and foremost, from curiosity, and if you're not curious, you, you don't get anywhere." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:17", "start": 1457.04, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of things in this whole theme of preparing for a hyperbitcoinized world and trying to either, either to prepare for it or to try and- ready yourself so that you're well equipped to make it there, right? To make it through that short and medium term. And so I think you've, you've written on this kind of topic as well. I think you've written, a piece called \"You Are Not Prepared\" or \"You Are Not Ready.\"" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "24:41", "start": 1481.04, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. so quite a while back now, but, but there's something to that, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:47", "start": 1486.56, "text": "Yeah. So I guess if you had to summarize that for people who are maybe they are more of a new coiner, they're, they're" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "24:58", "start": 1498.37, "text": "because Bitcoin's value increases on average by two hundred percent per year. Right now, it looks like the, the curve, the long-term curve is sort of leveling off, but that might not be the case. It might be an exponential curve that, that has the shape of a weird S like this or like a J shape or whatever, because One, so, so we don't know, how much, how much Bitcoin's price will go up over time. But like simple game theory and the fact that its supply is limited should tell us something about that the price will go up. Over time. And, as I've stated on many other pods and in a, in a video, in an article, it's like, I believe network te-technologies always, almost always have an S-shaped adoption curve if they're successful, right? So there's like a Heinz ketchup moment where everyone starts to get on board, and then there's a steep rise, and it levels out again when the entire planet is on board. It happened to the TV, the radio, and Facebook and Google and so on. and I believe that could happen to Bitcoin too, It will follow a very different path because there's a lot more money and a lot more things in the world than there are people. So, you, once the entire, human race is on board and has some Bitcoin, there's no reason for them to stop buying Bitcoin. And, hyperbitcoinization, like the definition of the term is when every other monetary asset is, has been converted to Bitcoin. So, Bitcoin is the only money we have. But it doesn't stop there either, because Once we're fully hyperbitcoinized, we live in a sound money, free market global economy without interventionism, which is such a, it's a much, much better, system for organizing human effort and human action, across both time and space. A-and that in turn will make prices go down even faster than they do now, and, prices of production and prices of trans-transportation, everything going down at enormous speeds. And the-- which means that the purchasing power of a Bitcoin can only go up, faster after that point. And of course, I don't know if I'm right about this or not, but, this is ties into the \"you are not prepared\" thing. Is anyone really prepared for two more zeroes at the end of the value of Bitcoin? So, like, hahaha. what is that like five million dollars per Bitcoin instead of fifty thousand dollars? Right. Is anyone really prepared for that? Because, I, I mean, just I mean, you probably hundred, a hundred x your, your, dollars worth in Bitcoin. I don't know how many Bitcoin you have, I don't care, and, but, but I know you've been in this space for a long time. So, and people who've been in the space for a long time and who've understood that hodling is the best tactic, because very few people can trade better than two hundred percent per year increase, right? So, so if you have, you have a compound interest which makes it, you, you probably at least a hundred x your initial position, nominated in dollars," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "28:29", "start": 1709.28, "text": "which means if that happens again, you've-- if you put in one dollar, you would, you would, and you're hundred x in a hundred x, you would, for every dollar you put in in like two thousand and fourteen Fast forward to two thousand and twenty-five, every single dollar might be worth, a hundred thousand dollars. So if you put-- Well, the, the math is, is p-pretty simple, and I, I think no one is really prepared for a hundred x gains in anything. So, and when that happens, are you, The, the, the thing people should ask themselves is like, do I really own my Bitcoin? do I really control my private keys? What third parties am I trusting? am I-- is this really private? And all of these things, all of these questions, as, as you know, the more you learn about it, the, the more, the more you ask yourself these questions. And, I, I recently quit my Fiat job just because, I, I, I feel I don't have enough time for, for the Bitcoin stuff. I, I need to I'm having a front row seat to the future, and I, I really need to, to grab this opportunity while I can and, not only, not only this type of thing, but, but also learning more about- About how to become more self-sovereign, and, it's, it's a journey definitely worth taking, I believe, for, for everyone, sooner or later. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:57", "start": 1796.94, "text": "I see. Yeah. So I guess I broadly agree with the idea, right, Land? I think many people in the space have been talking about this. the earliest I recall is someone like, say, James DeAngelo of, I think in around twenty thirteen or fourteen, he was talking a similar kind of con-concept of like this S-curve adoption and what would it look like on the Really, as you zoom out, it, it just what looks like a big, big move when, as you zoom out, is really not that much of a big move. Although I think my estimate of where things are gonna go is it, it does have to taper off, it has to taper down at some point. I think, yes, it's true that, you know, if you were to look at the, you know, casebitcoin dot com and you look at the Kagerstat, like right now, the ten-year Kagerstat is something like a hundred and forty-four percent, something like that. But I, I think it will taper down over time. But in terms of longer term, where, what kind of ballpark are we talking? So as, as I'm sure you know, Hal Finney put out that number, and I think that was in like the first week, he put out that number of ten million dollars per coin, and I think something, let's say ballpark, something in that ten to twenty million dollars per coin US, you know? In purchasing power terms, obviously, because by then it will have inflated a lot, yeah. I, I think that is totally reasonable. And then, yeah. The question" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "31:15", "start": 1875.16, "text": "then, do you think it will have like, two percent deflation from that point and sort of a linear? Thing. Yeah. So if I had to guess," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:24", "start": 1883.53, "text": "yeah, yeah, what I would say is once we get to kind of that sort of not really terminal value, but you know what I'm saying, call it something in that range, it might then settle down into something like five percent per year or something like that. You know, it might kind of-- that might be the kind of longer term, call it," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "31:42", "start": 1901.86, "text": "you know, growth rate. But what if I'm right here? And it doesn't settle down, but it speeds up. Because I mean, it's, yeah, and, and, and where, where does it end? Because I don't see an end point. If, if, if, if we have the most effective system ever produced, and as you say, it might fuel the AI rev-revolution in ways we can't imagine. So, so, so that you have a, a deflation rate that, that increases year by year. So, so because I, I, I believe very few things in, in life are linear, and stuff that has to do with value and markets and stuff, that, that's never linear, right? And if you, if you have an absolute finite supply of bitcoins and they are lost every day, some, someone is bound to lose, the, the more users you have, the more people there are that are, That lose their Bitcoin per day. So you have, even a shrinking supply, a, a larger user base, a more productive society, decreasing prices, like, all the vectors here point to there not being a point where it levels out and settles on a price." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:00", "start": 1979.64, "text": "Back to the show in a moment after a word for the sponsors. CoinKite dot com are the creators of my favorite bitcoin hardware wallet, the Coldcard. This is one of the most recommended hardware wallets by bitcoiners. Now, n v k and the team are looking at nfc transactions as a new way to do air-gapped bitcoin transactions, in addition to the standard micro sd pathway that you can do it right now. So for people who are worried, or maybe you're just sitting on a phone wallet and you're looking to upgrade, Coldcard is a great choice. You can upgrade And this will be a really solid hardware wallet choice that you can use, and there's lots of guides online. 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This one is going to be wat-waterproof, rustproof, and fireproof, so you can make sure that you or your loved ones can access your coins if something happens to you or if your house goes up on fire. So go to cyphersafe.io and use code livera to order yours. Now, have you thought about multi-signature? As number goes up, it is time for all of us to really start thinking more seriously about these things and removing our single points of failure. Now, Unchained can make it easy for you to do this because they've got collaborative custody. They hold one key for you, and you hold two keys, so you can go and get two different hardware wallets and set this up on the Unchained Dash Capital dot com website. Or on the other hand, if you need a hand, they've got a concierge service, so they can help you get onboard private keys before, so they will do a video call with you and get you set up and ship you the hardware wallets if you need them, and also deposit some Bitcoin in your vault so you can actually have some real practice of holding Bitcoin in your own vault. So if you're interested in this, go to unchained-dashcapital dot com slash concierge and use the code livera to order yours. Back to the show. Who knows? I think of it like, it will reach a point where, like, once we've hit that saturation. Right now, a lot of it is being driven just by, just the mere fact that we're so early, right? We are, yeah, yeah, yeah, talking one or two percent. Now we have, yeah, exactly, of the world. So, so there's still huge, huge, you know, up, you know, gains to come. And I think that's pretty uncontroversial amongst Bitcoiners. But I think the point about would it settle down to Percent and don't forget, that would still be an exponential growth rate, right? Just at, you know, five percent every year, right? Compounded every year, yeah, yeah. Five percent, yeah, yeah. I know, I know. Like once you're talking about global adoption, that would be massive, because even today, countries like developed countries might be doing two or three percent, you know? It's like a good thing if they can do three percent. That, now, in fairness, that's kind of measuring GDP growth, which is, you know, not the best way GDP metric, so that's a fair point, and I think you and I and probably many listeners would agree with that point. Yeah. but, you know, if it were to say five or ten percent per year, and we're getting, you know, like I think that's, that would still be an incredible growth rate. and it would, it would, yeah. And, but I guess it also comes down to that question of which things do you think Bitcoin eat, right? And perhaps this also com- gets into this whole conversation of infinity divided by twenty-one" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "37:02", "start": 2222.34, "text": "million, right Because" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:06", "start": 2225.98, "text": "this is where I think it's fair to say Bitcoin would eat a lot of the bond market. I think a lot of the debt market will be gone. a lot of the property, as in like physical, you know, property market, a lot of that has been blown up by the fiat bubble, so to speak. But I do see definitely a big value and a big role still to be played by equity as a concept in general. You know, there'll still be a lot of companies, who, you know, they need to equity as their method of capitalization As their method of funding. Okay," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "37:37", "start": 2257.24, "text": "so ex-explain equity to me like I'm five," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:40", "start": 2260.26, "text": "please. You own a share in a company, yeah? You own a, the owner share in a company. Okay. You own a parcel of a company." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "37:46", "start": 2265.85, "text": "Alright. So you have, the, the argument against that is that, what is the most saleable good in the world? it's, it's money, right? The, by definition, money is the most saleable good in the world, which should be the, the thing that people want the most. Company that seemed really, really good at what they do and, had really, really good pro-progress, wouldn't you want like a perfect money instead? Wouldn't that be even worth even more to you, considering that that money would represent not only that company, but every other company in the world and their progress as well? So, so wouldn't the equity market shrink to zero over time in a, in a sound money world?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:29", "start": 2309.02, "text": "I don't think so. Reason being, eventually, right, as part of that tapering off that we're talking about, so instead of, you know, a Per year or whatever it is, it's gonna taper down, and at some point, there'll be companies who outperform Bitcoin. Right now, it's very hard for a company to outrun Bitcoin over the long run. Very few companies have ever even achieved this incredible feat, but so call it ten, fifteen, twenty years from now, in that world, it would be quite common, it would be quite commonplace for companies to outrun Bitcoin returns. And what we're talking about here is like the growth deflationary benefit that you co- you get just for simply hodling, and outperforming that, because they, as an example, just to throw random numbers, let's say the growth deflation number for Bitcoin is five percent, right? Your purchasing power growth is five percent, and there might be companies doing fifteen or twenty percent in that world." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "39:19", "start": 2358.79, "text": "I would, I would even argue that in a hyperbitcoinized world, only companies that outperform Bitcoin would survive, because there wouldn't be no point to running a company that wouldn't outperform Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:29", "start": 2368.54, "text": "Maybe, but I mean, I ca- I could see it like maybe there are some things that you, you want a Maybe somebody doesn't have enough equity, yet, and so that's where they're using equity capital to maybe sell a po-pportion or a parcel of the company, to be able to run their different endeavors, right? Because it comes down to why, why does the firm exist? Why does, you know, why do we have these things? And in some cases, it's, it's because there's like a, there's a genuine market need for why these things exist. it's not that, I mean, I, I see it like, yes, money Hold, and I'll give you another example. Even in a world where, you know, that was fixed, people's demand to hold money can change, right? So as an example, if there was a big natural disaster, your desire to hold money in that time period is a lot higher. Your demand to hold money versus other things is higher at that time. And so even on that basis, the valuate, the relative valuation of Bitcoin would change. And so I guess for me, the way-- when I say I don't agree with the infinity over twenty-one million meme, for me," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:35", "start": 2434.88, "text": "You think from an accounting perspective, it is quite feasible that, and I mentioned this in, episode two hundred and ninety-six with Safstein as well, is this idea that-- Okay. Yeah. So just for anyone who hasn't heard that episode, the point would be, let's say, just assuming for the-- to make the numbers easy, let's say there's twenty-one million bitcoins, I view it like it's possible for global wealth, and it, it's not just possible, it's very likely that the global net worth would be greater than twenty-one million. And that's not a Valuations, if you add up all the property and all the stocks in the world, that it adds up to more than twenty-one million, right? As an example, it could be sixty million bitcoins worth of global wealth, but only twenty-one million bitcoins. And so that to me is why I disagree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go on. I remember that. I remember that." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "41:21", "start": 2481.03, "text": "And I heard that argument on the, for, for, you get into some philosophical arguments here. Like if you have, if you had a, a society with only one good, say one property, of that society. Would the total sum of that, society's, worth be the money and the house or just the house? well, one" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:46", "start": 2505.99, "text": "is measured by another, the other, right? I, I think-- Because I've heard-- I think it kind of breaks down when you have just one good though. Yeah, yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "41:53", "start": 2512.88, "text": "But, but, but I've heard the argument that it's actually infinity divided by, forty-two million because it's, it's the worth of all the Bitcoin plus the worth of all the things. And I don't Why that? Because the bitcoins in themselves wouldn't have value if there was nothing of value to buy for them, right? And, and to, to, to your point, the, the thing with the equation is like, it was never meant to be dissected. It was just meant to be a, a, a meme, because it's, it, it's, it's meant to be a reflection of the, that there's no upper limit to where the price of Bitcoin can go. That, that's, that's what, that, that's what it's supposed to do, because mathematically the equation is useless, because infinity divided by anything is infinity, right? So, so it makes no s-- absolutely no sense the equation. So, it was never intended from my side to be anything else than like a, a, a wake-up call for people that, look at this thing, it either goes to zero, which is very unlikely, or it's, it, it never stops growing in purchasing power. It never stops going up. The, the, it's very binary. There's only either it fails or it doesn't fail, which means that it, it goes up over time indefinitely. So that's what the equation was supposed to mean. But, but I do get the, the critique, and that there, there, there might be more things of value than there, than there is money in the world, and that, that ties back, for me, it ties back even further to, back to Austrian economics and more philosophical things, like there are things that are more- More valuable to people that than money could ever buy. The, the Mona Lisa doesn't have a price. They, they offered Abba, one billion dollars to, to go on a con- on a tour, ten years back, and they said no, and they're doing it now instead because they, they want to, and not because they wanted the money, because they didn't feel they needed the money. So of course, value is a subjective thing. So, so regardless of how, you- You try to attach an equation to, to value, you, you can never, you can never really measure it, and like, not even with Bitcoin. It's still, it's like the best ruler we have for it, but it's still incomplete because value is something you create in your head, and you know this of course, since you're, into Austrian economics. And I think that, that, that's, that's the whole mis- misinterpretation of the whole thing. I'm trying to put an equation on something that can't be put in equation on. but the equations, the, the purpose of the equation was just to, to trigger a thought process in people's heads, and it seems to have, succeeded at that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:46", "start": 2686.01, "text": "Well, okay. Yeah, I think for me, I just see it like, maybe I'm, maybe I'm just being silly, but I just, to me, it just... I, I just, it just, to me, it, it let-- it sends people down a, a weird pathway. Now, I, I agree with you, I think in, in this sense, I agree with you in the sense that a lot of people haven't really deeply thought through the idea of growth deflation, right? Of holding a, a money in which it's-- we're living in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:15", "start": 2715.19, "text": "Founding concept and that is a very, you know, worthwhile thing to think about. But there's all these other little things that come to it, and I think I, I'm just sort of careful that people don't go barking up the wrong tree in terms of thinking like, \"Oh, money is a measuring rod, it's not.\" \"Oh, you know, the all the world's wealth has to be contained within the amount of money supply that we have.\" It doesn't. it's-- So those are just my, I guess, my critiques of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:42", "start": 2742.19, "text": "it, The world's productivity growth has to taper, like it's not just gonna be doing like a hundred percent. Yeah. No, no, no, but I mean, that part I could be wrong, you know? It theoretically, you know? The," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "45:55", "start": 2754.83, "text": "I think this part of the rabbit hole is, is, is a better discussion for us to, because this might be where we differ, because I'm not entirely sure. You might be right, it might taper off. It's, it's likely because nothing's inf- nothing has infinite growth, right? And everything, but what, But then, yeah, you would, I mean, let's say that happens, you'd be right, yeah. Like, like say, say, you have a five percent deflation the first year, a six percent the year after that, a seven percent the year after, so that it's not even just compound interest, but an increasing compound interest, so that the rate is really, really, really, yeah, big. that, that's the scenario that I, I believe people can't really get into their heads, because it, it might not be likely, but it's still Not for ten thousand years, but for a hundred years, it's not that hard to think that, that, that might last for a hundred years. I mean, we've had inflationary currencies for like, forever, so, which is like two thousand years in, in human thinking, which isn't forever, by the way. anyway, And what that has led me to, my latest thought on this is that Bitcoin is already the best store of value ever, ever discovered. that's obvious once you understand it. It is Very quickly becoming the, the best medium of ex-exchange ever invented, via the Lightning Network, people buying burgers in, in El Salvador for no fees at all whatsoever, instantly. but the thing I'm very unsure of is the unit of account thing, b-because if, if it, if it keeps on being volatile and if it keeps on, like in this, J-shaped scenario, described previously, it wouldn't really function as a unit of account, not even in a world with like five, as you say, that, tapers off with a five percent per year increase, It would be very difficult to use sats, as a unit of account because prices-- we, we have to remember that stable prices is the fantasy. That's the artificial thing. That's what fiat currencies do. They, they artificially increases, they in-increase the prices of everything, so it looks that the prices are stable when they're really not, because all the production costs have gone down and all the transportation costs have gone down, and you can't really see how fool you've been. Be-be-because they- The, the paying for, paying for anything, everything gets cheaper over time, right? So if you have a, satoshis as the unit of account how do you live in a world where every day the-- wh-which is like the inverse of a hyper-inflating world? It's a hyper-bitcoinizing world, where, where prices like drop faster and faster every day, so it's impossible to, to plan ahead for the future because hyperinflation," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "48:58", "start": 2938.1, "text": "one divided by deflation, yeah. Yeah, maybe. One divided by hyperinflation." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:03", "start": 2943.18, "text": "Right. Yeah. So I guess what you'd be saying is it would be growing so quickly that it would just be like, it would be hard to find your feet almost, because things would get so cheap so quickly, you wouldn't even know how quickly you could buy things, you know?" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "49:14", "start": 2953.89, "text": "Yeah. What, what I'm saying is that it might be easier to use a more stable, if you will, unit of account, like kilowatt hours or liters of milk or whatever, something, something Other than Sats, because Sats will, will not be stable. They can't be." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:32", "start": 2972.3, "text": "But the- I don't know, I, I just see it like, it's gonna be unstable, but people are just gonna use Sats anyway, you know? They're just gonna be getting very rich very quickly, and their purchasing power is gonna be shooting up, and, but here's the other thing, there's all these other factors that we could layer on. One example, demographics, right? I could say to you, okay, Knut, you know, I'm, okay, End of my life, let's say I'm in my eighties, let's say my average expec- you know, life expectancy, whatever, you know, eighty something, right? I'm not gonna live forever. I might at some point want to spend more, and so even that would change the way things are, because let's say after all those years, I, I think, okay, look, I'm not gonna live forever, I'm gonna start spending, and whether that, it could be on some big grand projects to leave so that people remember my name or whatever it is," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:27", "start": 3026.84, "text": "Economy and there'd be other, you know, old, you know, hodlers who are spending some coins or whatever. Yeah, that's," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "50:32", "start": 3032.4, "text": "that's happening right now. Like the, the number of wallet users with one Bitcoin or less is going up, the, the number of, users with a hundred thousand Bitcoin or more is, is decreasing. So it is redistributing wealth, which I find very fascinating." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:46", "start": 3046.3, "text": "Yeah. But I guess the point is, the point is that that could also impact the, quote-unquote, growth deflation aspects of it because- Every time some person with a lot of coins is spending a lot of those coins and putting them back out into the economy, yeah, you get" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "51:01", "start": 3061.41, "text": "some liquidity, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:03", "start": 3063.37, "text": "And it would then-- that could counteract against this idea of massive, massive growth every, you know, because they're, they're spending some down, right?" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "51:12", "start": 3071.7, "text": "In a way, well, not over time, since the supply is absolutely limited. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:18", "start": 3078.38, "text": "so it, it matters how many more people are trying to accumulate versus how many people are trying to spend at that given point in time. You know, if a lot- Lots of people are trying to spend and not as many people are trying to accumulate, well then that does depress the, of course," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "51:30", "start": 3090.2, "text": "of course, that's how markets work, right? So, but," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "51:36", "start": 3096.19, "text": "I was thinking about another point. Yeah, the, the point of, like, if you look even in, El Salvador at this point in time, people are, people aren't, using Sats as the unit of account. They're using dollars. Everything is priced in dollars still. and because it's easier, it's, it's a better unit of account at this point in time. And I think something like the dollar that, like, remember that the gold standard, the, the only reason that gold was a good form of money was that it's, it's had an inflation rate that was reflecting the inflation, the deflation rate of everything else, right? So, so, so go-- or the, like, how, how, How many more goods and services were in the, the-- it reflected the expanding economy. The, the, the gold expanded at almost the same rate, so prices co-- in denominated in gold could stay, the same over long periods of time. But that's not what Bitcoin does. Bitcoin isn't gold. It's something completely different. It's absolutely finite, absolutely scarce. We have never encountered that before, so I, I think we should be humble when making- Predictions, I should be humble making my J-shaped prediction, of course, because it's, it's outlandish. But even like p-people who think it will taper off should also be humble, because we don't know if it will taper off ever. We, we can't really predict that because we've never seen a, a commodity like this before. And that's, that, that sort of ties into what, what the, what I'm trying to do with the everything divided by twenty-one million equation. Like, fuck with people's brain. If you will." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:25", "start": 3204.7, "text": "So if, most people aren't ready, what are some of the mistakes that you see people making, and how should, how should people be thinking about it if they don't wanna make a mistake on the path to hyperbitcoinization?" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "53:39", "start": 3219.36, "text": "the first thing is get off zero, and that's the most, most important lesson for most people, like get off zero. you shouldn't own zero Bitcoin, you should own some Bitcoin. And, and then just wait, and at some point in time, those bitcoins will be the, the, the lion's share of your net worth, regardless of how rich you are at this point. At some point in time, those bitcoins will be worth more than you are. Or then your total, total net worth at this moment. And at that point, it will be much less, profitable to use violence against you to get your, to get your money. It will be much more profitable to s-provide you with something of value to get some satoshis in return. And this is the beaut- the most beautiful aspect of Bitcoin. It, it like, it makes violence a lot le-less effective on every- level of society. I mean, you, you can threaten me and threaten my family and take all my Bitcoin and, good for you, you did. But that wasn't all my Bitcoin, that was like a thousand of them. But you can't know how many Bitcoins I have. No one can know how many Bitcoins another person ha- has. So, so it makes violence a lot less effective. because, y-yeah, I don't need to go into that any further. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I, I think I've lost the question. Was there a question there? Oh, I was just saying what are some of the common," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:11", "start": 3310.65, "text": "I guess, mistakes that you could see people making along the way because they aren't ready? And so I think in most cases it'll be people, as you mentioned, firstly, not, not owning any Bitcoin or not holding, not hodling any, and then the other one obviously will be people who are perhaps spending too quickly or spending To, you know, before, before they've kind of really let, let Bitcoin grow to the level that, we all believe it will go to. That's," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "55:38", "start": 3337.85, "text": "that's sort of part of the learning process, right? Dabbling with shitcoinery and losing, seeing, seeing five years later how much that lunch you paid for in Bitcoin is actually worth today is a very, very good lesson. And, so, so that comes naturally. So, but the, the first thing is get off zero. The second thing is don't spend them. The third thing would, would be, or, or maybe the second thing, are they actually yours? Do you hold your own private keys? Because it's, it's a very important thing, and this is, has been a mantra among Bitcoiners for forever You know, not your keys, not your Bitcoin. And the, it's, it's still true. And then of course, you get into all the other steps, like, should you store them in some other way? Should you do multisig? Should you-- Are, are you technically competent enough to do this or that? Should you like," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "56:31", "start": 3391.4, "text": "Should you run your own full node? Should you, should you do this and that? Should you coinjoin? Should you-- Are you, are you actually in the driver's seat of this thing or not? And there are so many layers to that and so much to learn. So I, I think no one-- I mean, it's not trustless. you, you have to trust, a lot A lot fewer, third parties, but there's always some trust involved. Like, you have to trust hardware manufacturers, you have to trust-- There's always some trust involved, and, depending on where you are in-- on your Bitcoin ho-holdings, you, you should like adapt to that and like, okay, I have this many bitcoins, they're worth this and this much now, now I need to go to the next step, now I need to learn how to do this and how to do that. So hope that answers the question." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:22", "start": 3441.54, "text": "Yeah, yeah. I think Things that people have to think about, and of course, I think the one tip that people could take on as well is just to feel that urgency of stacking, because when you are first new, everyone, basically all of us regret not stacking harder when we could have in the earlier, in, whenever your earlier days of Bitcoin were for you or for whoever, that's a common thing. So, but again, that's related to that idea of everyone buys Bitcoin at the price they deserve. Well Everyone gets that sense of urgency to stack sat at the price they deserve as well. But that's also probably an important lesson for people out there, if you're a relatively new bitcoiner or you're new to this, then Just keep in mind that you wanna have your automated stacking plan and you wanna be stack, stack, stacking, and regularly accumulating, because you'll, you'll regret it. In a year or two, you'll look back and think, \"Oh, wow, I, I missed out on so many sats.\"" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "58:20", "start": 3500.08, "text": "Yeah, yeah. but I, I have very few regrets regarding my Bitcoin journey, really. I, I lost, the staggering amount of ten dollars on trading shitcoins. one dollar in each of ten, ten different shitcoins, and I saw- Quite quickly that two of them were going up in relation to Bitcoin, the other eight were going down. And I thought, I can never figure out which one is going up and which one is going down. I, I don't have the time or the patience or like the luck necessary to do this. And like diversifying the basket is just, it's go-- it's going to be a net loss. So, so that, that, that lesson was easy and it didn't cost me that much. and I've been a maximalist ever since, of course. ha-ha. But, so, I have very few regrets, even, even though I've given away Bitcoin and like I should have stacked more at some point. Everyone has those thoughts. But if, if you truly grasp this thing, you, you know also that it's never too late and it's never too late to start stacking, it's never too late to, to like do something with it. And, a, a, a good resource to start with would be your course on, sailor dot org, right? That's Bitcoin for Beginners. Yeah. Ten hours of learning Yeah. That's like Morpheus, training Neo, type course, you know? But by the way, there's only" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:45", "start": 3585.38, "text": "so much you can do, but yeah." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "59:47", "start": 3586.92, "text": "But by the way, there's no way that we won't be disappointed by the next, Matrix movie, right? Yeah, it looks" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:55", "start": 3594.9, "text": "pretty bad to be honest. hey, we'll see, we'll see, right? unless," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "59:59", "start": 3599.11, "text": "unless Gigi had something to do with the script, I'm sure I won't be disappointed." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:05", "start": 3605.25, "text": "Yeah, yeah. Gigi's great. If, Gigi was involved, I'm sure it would be a fantastic movie, but unfortunately, I, I don't think they got Gigi involved. No, don't worry, we'll have to, there'll be, like Bitcoin remakes, right? They'll go back and take these terrible movies and remake them in good ways. So, you know, the memes," }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "01:00:26", "start": 3626.7, "text": "the memes will be fantastic." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:29", "start": 3629.34, "text": "That's it, that's right. So yeah, look, I think that's probably a good spot to finish up there, Knut. let's, finish up and give, give the listeners, if you've got any closing thoughts for them, and of course, where can they find you online? m-most" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "01:00:43", "start": 3643.13, "text": "of my Bitcoin stuff is still on Twitter. I'm at Knut Svanholm on Twitter. I also have an author page on, Amazon. Amazon dot com slash author slash Knut Svanholm. I have a Patreon as well, if anyone is interested in that, now" }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "01:01:01", "start": 3661.38, "text": "Well, that's about it. Well, yeah, w- I've made a bunch of videos with Yoni Appleberg and Guy Svan, and you can find them on YouTube. Just, just search for Knut Svanholm and, I'll, I'll bet you find them there. Or search for everything divided by twenty-one million. I share the, the playlist quite often on Twitter as well, shilling them. And- Excellent. Yeah, I'm very proud of them, those" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:25", "start": 3685.04, "text": "videos. Awesome. Well, yeah, look But, thanks very much for joining me today, Knut." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "01:01:35", "start": 3695.03, "text": "Yeah, I, I don't think we disagree that much, and I, I'm looking forward to, continue this discussion in real life someday, Stefan. Of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:43", "start": 3703.13, "text": "course." }, { "speaker": "knut_svanholm", "time": "01:01:43", "start": 3703.7, "text": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:44", "start": 3704.5, "text": "Thank you. Get the show notes and the transcripts over at stephanlivera dot com slash three o four for this episode. Thanks, and I'll see you in the Citadelles." } ] }