{ "episodeId": "SLP329", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "samson_mow": { "name": "Samson Mow", "role": "guest", "tag": "SAMSON" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.47, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin. Today, for episode 329, we're breaking down Bitcoin bonds for Bitcoin City in El Salvador. Now, these bonds are structured in a different way. There is a coupon of 6.5%, but there is also a Bitcoin dividend, and these bonds are inten-intended to be tied with Bitcoin City as they relate to the build out for the infrastructure of Bitcoin City and Bitcoin mining related to that. So Samson is joining me to talk about that and break down who would invest in this, why not hodl Bitcoin, who's the target market, operationally how is this going to work, what are some of the benefits, what are some of the opportunities and risks, as well as the reactions by Bitcoiners to the announcement, and we get into some discussion about what Bitcoin City could become. This show is brought to you by Swan Dot Com, the easy way to accumulate Bitcoin. While also learning about Bitcoin with various free resources like Inventing Bitcoin, a book by the CTO of Swan, Jan Pritzker. You can get that at swanbitcoin dot com slash free book. Now, with Swan, you can start off with a lump sum purchase and then set up your Bitcoin savings plan, an automated sat stacking plan. Now, if you are a high net worth individual or an entity or company looking to stack and you need some additional assistance, a dedicated Bitcoin expert, check out Swan Private. 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So compassmining dot io, and they've got all sorts of content and material that help teach about Bitcoin mining also. Now onto the show with Samson. Samson, welcome back to the show, man. Thanks for the fun. How are you doing? Doing well. I'm, back down in, Sri Lanka now for a little while, and then, probably next year be out traveling again. But, it was great to catch up with you back in, El Salvador, while, while the big announcement and everything was going down for Libbitcoin for adopting Bitcoin and of course, Feel the Bit, which was basically President Bukele's party announcing, the Bitcoin Bond and Bitcoin How, how all of that got started?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "03:49", "start": 229.4, "text": "Sure. It was definitely exciting and very fun. I, I guess the start was the, the Bitcoin as legal tender law, the Bitcoin law that Jack Ma was kicked off. around that time or actually before the law was announced, we had actually been, introduced and we're talking with government there, and they wanted to get some indication of support from companies in the space. So what we actually did was write a letter of, support saying, you know, if you're doing- This, we will fully support you from the standpoint of our technology, anything we can do, expertise, and, you know, software development resources too. So we kind of were advising them on a number of topics like, Bitcoin cold storage, security, and whatnot, and then, during that discussion period, we were pitching them the idea of Bitcoin bonds, bonds that are issued on the Liquid Network as a security token and raising capital. to build out their infrastructure in El Salvador. And of course, that was very interesting for them, and I think I spoke to Bloomberg at that time and, you know, they made a big deal of it. But it was still at very early stages at that point. they got busy with the Bitcoin Law rollout, they got busy with the Chivo launch and subsequent, you know, hiccups. And then somewhere like a month and a half ago, we resumed these discussions on the bonds, and we managed to get pretty far with it. we had a few proposals, and we ended up Using one proposal to flush out, which is the, the proposal that everyone sees in the current state. And then when I was down there in El Salvador, we decided to announce it at the Field of Bit event. So that's it in a nutshell." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:30", "start": 330.48, "text": "Yeah, right. And so I think there's so many different pieces that go into this, right? Because you can look at what is the current rate of funding on the fiat bond side, Because that, that, that's actually quite a bit higher. I, I think last I saw it was like thirteen percent is how much they would be paying just at a, at a fiat bond rate. And so this is actually a different rate. This is, I believe it's six and a half percent. So that's probably one thing just off the, off the draw that, that, that is different about this one. and I suppose some of the criticism I've seen is like this idea of, \"Oh, see, it's not really a Bitcoin bond. You're actually just doing fiat But I guess the counter, as I understand it, would it be essentially that there's a Bitcoin lockup and that there's a Bitcoin dividend component, or how, how do you see that?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "06:22", "start": 382.01, "text": "Well, actually, before we get into that, I wanted to ask you, what was your, your take on the event, because you were there, yeah, sure, and you talked to a lot of Bitcoiners at the conference, like probably immediately afterwards, but I didn't get that chance to, you know, talk to a lot of people after, and before the announcement, I couldn't talk about Swamp. So I would like to hear your, your on-the-ground take of what it was like to hear everything and, you know, the reactions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:49", "start": 408.77, "text": "Yeah, sure. So I think it's obviously the people who are at the event, their take is going to be a much more bullish because you're there, you're feeling it, you're seeing it, it feels a lot more real, and it was super exciting for the people at the time. Now, I think there are different, obviously different people in the community who are commenting on it or talking about it, and so- I mean, for me, I'm cautiously optimistic. I, I think I, I would like to see this idea work. I would like to see this whole idea of Bitcoin City and funded with Bitcoin bond and like, I, I, and, and the element of giving residency for the investors, I think it could be quite an interesting pitch and play. I see it as El Salvador took away the test and vaccine mandate to get into the country as well, so I thought that was an interesting thing that might appeal to Bitcoin fans. People, right? And so I thought that was an interesting aspect of it, and now probably the, the downsides or the criticisms, if you will, from other Bitcoin people who were at the time, I think some of them might have been thinking, \"Oh, what if, what if this is just like a way to get money from all the, the, the Gringos or take money from the Bitcoin people? And what if the project doesn't pan, pan out in the successful way?\" So I think that's probably the, in a nutshell, kind of the, the good and the- The bad of what people were saying. Personally, I'm, I'm a little bit more on the cautiously optimistic side. I, you know, I want, I would like to see it happen, and I'd like to see it work, so I think one way that you might think about it is that, look, politicians have their own, they have their own incentive, of course, but of course, they-- you can also look at what is the incentive for the country, and if the country has an incentive to basically provide a better deal for Bitcoin holders Investors and people who are willing to participate in this investment or participate in Bitcoin City and try to make Bitcoin City a success, because the, the, the success of the two is sort of intertwined, because part of the way the bond is going to get paid back, from my understanding, is that there will be a VAT in Bitcoin City. And so obviously the more people who move to Bitcoin City and spend, and obviously that's revenue for, to pay back the Bitcoin bond. So there's a little bit of a, the, the success of these two is intertwined in that way. way. So, that's, you could say the incentive is that they wanna make this work, because in a world where, you know, there's not that many other, places that are offering this kind of deal and this kind of accessibility. That's how I would summarize it. but what, what do you think?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "09:30", "start": 569.62, "text": "Would you say that most people are cautiously optimistic or are most people a little bit pessimistic about it? So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:37", "start": 577.11, "text": "I would say in some communities, some people are sort of like, \"Oh, yeah, no, it's, you know, like, I don't trust, I don't trust him because, you know, look, look at the history of politics in South America and Central America, where, you know, some person comes out and says something and then it changes, and, you know, a-and-and in their mind, they could also be thinking, \"Well, if- If President Bikel's term is, I don't know exactly, but if it, let's say it's another two years, what happens with the next? Does that mean we need a multiple presidents to be aligned with the vision and the plan? Because what happens if, let's say, some new guy comes in in the next term and he doesn't like Bitcoin City and Bitcoin Bonds and he tries to sort of step away from the program, doesn't put in as many resources, you, you could understand that, that concern also. But I, I, I think certainly you see others who are very Positive, like fully positive, right? The likes of Max Kaiser and Stacey, right? So they're, they're fully like, \"Yep, we're, we're doing it, we're moving to El Zante next year, and they're gonna buy it, they're gonna do it.\" So I, I think you, you see the full gamut in the Bitcoin community there. Yeah. So I, I guess you've seen that as well, right?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "10:47", "start": 647.06, "text": "Yeah. I understand like the hesitance to- You know, trust in politicians. I've seen some blowback from some vocal people in the Bitcoin community saying, \"You know, you guys are working with governments.\" But I think it's a little bit different in this case, where you kind of need to factor in the, the people of the country too. and a government should represent the interests of its people, and I think in this case, it is actually true because they're trying to, you know, lift the nation out of poverty. They're trying to create a better future for everybody, and to do that- That they're adopting Bitcoin on a number of levels, right? If you weren't looking out for the best interests of the nation a-and the people, you definitely wouldn't do that. If you wanted to, like, clamp down a-a-and, you know, rule with an iron fist, you wouldn't give people \"fuck you\" money, right? Like, y-you're giving them money that you can't seize, and you're trying to teach them something new and show them a path to the future. So I, I would give a benefit of the doubt here and say You know, President Bukele is trying to forge a path forward, and it's a difficult path to forge, and a lot of that has to do with every, everything that's happened in the past and the difficult situation they're in right now. So they're, they're, they're saddled with a lot of debt, and the debt that they're saddled with really is keeping them, effectively like a, a, a, a, a subservient state of, you know, Western nations, right? That debt that you, you're, you're- That they're, they're paying like thirteen percent on, I think the, the coupon on that is nine percent or something, but because it's trading at a discount, it's effectively like thirteen to fifteen percent, right? So how you get out of that hole, you need the IMF To refinance you, to, to give you more financing to service the debt, and that's just a downward spiral, right? You're borrowing more money to service old debts. That's not really a way to get out of the situation. The only way to get out of the situation is to, to break the simulation, right? To, to, to ignore the imaginary paper money that they're lending you to service, you know, other imaginary money that you've borrowed in the past, a-and to go with sound hard money. So, you know, I, I think it's a- It's a difficult situation. Either you can say, you know, we're, we're gonna work with a government, or you can say, you know, just let the old system exist. And regardless of your opinions, I think To leave it as status quo is worse than helping a government. And yes, you know, maybe he won't be in charge in a few years. Maybe the new person will be, anti-bitcoin, who knows? But that is somewhere in the future, and I think we have to deal with the cards that we have on the table today and, you know, try to steer things in the right direction. So if the comp-- if the country becomes prosperous through Bitcoin adoption, through the big- Bitcoin Bond program, I think it would be difficult for a successor to nullify all that and, and just throw it off the table and say, \"Okay, no more Bitcoin City, no more, zero cap gains, and no more property taxes,\" like, you know, take, reverse all those things. That would be very difficult if it's successful, right? If things are working and you want to turn it off I think that's far harder than if it's not working and you wanna turn it off." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:15", "start": 854.55, "text": "Yeah. So then the question I think is, as Samson, I'm sure you know this, you've been in the game a long time, as I have, sometimes Bitcoin moves in like a two steps forward, one step back, a-and so there are times where we really want this to be a big two steps forward, but what if in order to go forward, we've gotta go back? Or let's say, you know, a lot of Salvadorans, maybe they, let" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:40", "start": 880.22, "text": "Basically get wrecked in that because they start to hold some Bitcoin and, you know, because everyone has to sort of, it's almost like a rite of passage in Bitcoin, you have to kind of go through a big, drop. And so what does that reflect like for the six million or seven million Salvadorans, right? So I'm, I'm obviously hoping it works, and I, I, yeah, that's why I said I'm, I'm, I'm sort of cautiously optimistic about it, and I, I, I honestly I would consider, investment myself" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:10", "start": 910.22, "text": "residence aspect of it, because I'm, I'm sort of looking at these things myself in terms of, you know, the kind of idea of stacking flags and things like that, and maybe there are listeners who are out there thinking similar things, because I think there's an el- there's an element to that, but I guess the, the point I'm getting to is Bitcoin adoption might not be instant, right? It might be, it takes time for education and people have to get wrecked sometimes before they learn." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "15:34", "start": 934.26, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Bitcoin bond because it's like, fiat denominated, right? So there's a reason why it is denominated in fiat. So, you know, people say inflation is a good thing, and I think i-in some cases, inflation is a good thing. Inflation's good for, for bitcoiners, right? So if you're denominated the bond in fiat and Bitcoin is going up a-and the US dollar is devaluing, it makes it easier to pay back the bond, right? so that's definitely a good thing. But the, the reason why it is dollar denominated To prevent that, that, that possibility that the people of El Salvador will get wrecked, right? You don't want that to happen. So you're-- They're going to take five hundred million to buy Bitcoin, so this is the superstructure of the bond. Half of the bond proceeds will go towards buying Bitcoin, or if people invested Bitcoin, they'll huddle that and, you know, top it up to get e-equivalent to five hundred million. The other five hundred million will go into energy production infrastructure like geothermal mines and also Bitcoin mining. So even if the Bitcoin part is stable, like let's, let's-- I think the worst case scenario is in ten years, Bitcoin is flat, it's still at, you know, fifty K or something right now, right? I don't know what the price is. Fifty-eight K, gang. Yeah. Let's say it's flat, they'll still have energy infrastructure out of this, right? They'll be able to produce electricity and sell electricity to their neighbors and, and export electricity. they'll be mining some Bitcoin on the other side of the bond, right? The other five hundred Bitcoin, which if Bitcoin is flat, will still have value, right? the other portion, the one that was used to buy Bitcoin, you know, if they still have it in ten years and Bitcoin is still flat, they still have half a billion dollars, right? So it kind of adds some credibility and reliability to the bond and the faith that you- Having them to repay the, the bond, right? At least they, they have something there. And I think the reason why I call it a Bitcoin bond is just because it is backed with Bitcoin. It's not denominated Bitcoin. Like, you could probably do a bond denominated Bitcoin, but, you know, it would work a lot differently and there would be some risks to that, right? But given that it is a ten-year bond, it will encapsulate two havings. I find it highly unlikely that with two havings in this ten-year bond Bitcoin isn't going to make a move, you know, at all. Of course. Yeah. So, of course. I just find it a very low probability that the people will get wrecked. There, there might be some point in the next ten-year cycle that Bitcoin does crash, but maybe it's from five hundred thousand to two hundred thousand, you know? And we'll, we'll, we'll cry, cry our tears of sorrow that we're crashing to two hundred K." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:26", "start": 1106.16, "text": "That's right. And it's, it's really funny because people who are new, they, they really-- like, Right? Like they'll, they'll say, \"Oh, look, it's crashed, \"even though it's just like come up, you know, massively if you really zoom out, of course. so I guess getting back to the structure then, I think it is important to point out how this is actually a lot more appealing for people who are currently in negative yielding bonds right now, because there's no, like, if you're just a fiat bond investor right now, you're, you're just, you're just losing money basically, but you're just maybe losing less money than someone else Getting any return, and, you know, part of the idea is that you, you think, I guess you might be thinking, \"Oh, I can get assets on the cheap when my, my US bond, USD bonds mature,\" whereas with the Bitcoin bond, it's more of a, you're taking a fundamentally bullish view on Bitcoin as part of, I guess, as part of the, the worldview when you're investing in the Bitcoin bond. but maybe I'd, I'd love to hear from you. Who do you see the target market being, and why would they choose Bitcoin bond rather than obviously simply hodling Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "19:35", "start": 1175.39, "text": "Yeah, so if you're, if you're new to Bitcoin, I would suggest, you know, hold Bitcoin. But there are a lot of Bitcoin whales that do diversify their Bitcoin holdings, just to, just to, to ease off on the volatility somewhat. I'll give you one example. So we have the Blockstream mining note at Blockstream, right? It is buying hash rate. you know, why would people sell their Bitcoin or use their Bitcoin to buy the Blockstream mining note, right? And that is just to diversify and also to stabilize, right? So they're going to be earning back their Bitcoin with some additional, I guess, Bitcoin interest on that, because they're going to mine more Bitcoin, it's likely they will mine more Bitcoin by the end of the three-year BNM term than if they just like, you know, well, obviously, if they just hold, held their Bitcoin, right? And I think, when we launched BNM, it was at two hundred thousand euros per BNM, and now there's like, you know, one point point something Bitcoin within HBMN because it's mining Bitcoin, so you're getting Bitcoin returns on top of your Bitcoin. But for something like the volcano bonds, they-- if you have like, I don't know, tens of thousands of coins, it doesn't hurt you to diversify somewhat and lock in a, a fiat dollar price, just for locking in the value, right? And, you know, there could be a bear market in two years, who knows? But you'll at least have locked in the fiat dollar value, and you still have some Bitcoin upside, with half of the, the Bitcoin proceeds being sold after the first five year period. So after the first five years, El Salvador will start-- will recoup their initial five hundred million dollar investment, and then they will start, sharing that, that, the, the Bitcoin with the bondholders. So half of it, half of it, they will- I will keep half of it will be paid out as the special dividend or the Bitcoin dividend, so you'll still get back, the Bitcoin upside, just twenty-five percent of it, but as you receive the coupons, the six point five percent coupons every year, you can also buy back Bitcoin too, and you can also buy back, you know, at the end of the, the ten year cycle when you get back your, your original investment. So, I think there is a market for that, but the bigger market is really people that want Bitcoin exposure. I think there's like eighty-five billion dollars of money on the market right now that just are institutions and they want Bitcoin exposure. They're buying, they're buying, ETFs, right? They're buying ETFs in Canada and they're buying ETFs in the US. you know, ProShares had a blowout launch, right? And, and they sold out. And people are still buying MicroStrategy debt so that Michael Saylor can buy Bitcoin, right? So these people would just buy this Bitcoin bond. It's, it's the same thing, but from a nation state effectively. So you still get that Bitcoin exposure, and it should fit into their mandates or charters that prevent them from buying real Bitcoin. So if you look at it, you know, most of the Bitcoiners on Twitter, they have an advantage. They're retail investors. They can actually buy Bitcoin. But a lot of these entities, in institutions They can't buy Bitcoin, and this is their access to Bitcoin. It's their way to get exposure to Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:50", "start": 1370.39, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a really important point because obviously those of us in the Bitcoin Twitter and Bitcoin community, we tend to be like retail or hodlers ourselves. So we think of it like, \"Oh, I just hold Bitcoin.\" But there are a lot of people out there who aren't at that level yet, and maybe they are potentially, the vehicle that they are in doesn't allow them to directly purchase Bitcoin, and so this is a way to get exposure for them, and we can see that in the number of people who are buying the likes of GBTC or buying MicroStrategy or the listed- Bitcoin mining stocks. Of course, those of us who are hodlers, who, who can access directly holding Sats, we want to directly hold Sats, but I think that, that it's true that there's probably a lot of people who might have, let's say, some kind of mandate or they, they can only purchase bonds, so that might be a bit more difficult for them. So I think it's, it's actually a good thing in that it, it opens up the access for people, and this might be the first of more to come, right?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "23:54", "start": 1433.98, "text": "I think so. Just can appeal to a number of market segments. So as we're talking about before, you know, if you wanted to get permanent residence in El Salvador, how would you do that? I guess you can invest in a company there, you could, you know, buy an apartment or a house, but that is more involved. So one of the things that we wanted to do was to tie the bond purchase to that permanent resident. So you just show, you know, I, I bought the bond, here's the transaction. And then you're in that program, right? We want to link the two things together so it's super easy. Because otherwise, it, it's great that there's a program, but if the program is complex, then, yeah, it, it adds a barrier to entry. But also buying the bond, it's like a-- you can think of it as a twenty-five percent discount off of PR, right? Otherwise, if you had Bitcoin, you would sell your Bitcoin to qualify. And maybe you have a house now, maybe the house value will go up, but who knows? But at least this way, you didn't actually sell all of your Bitcoin, you, you have twenty-five percent upside still on the Bitcoin part. And, you know, it is a liquid asset, so, I guess that they probably tie the holding of the bond for a certain duration to qualify. Maybe it's five years, I don't know. But, you know, after that period, you could sell it and everything would be good. and it'd be easier to sell that than, say, a house. But there, there's also like, people that will invest based on ideology. I think that's a, a big one that people, don't, don't put enough weight into, because a lot of people so far have reached out and said, \"You know, we'll, we'll take some of the bond just for El Salvador, just to help El Salvador.\" Or, you know, I'll, I think Stephan, Stephan Cole said, \"Uh, I'll, I'll do it just to say 'fu' to the IMF,\" right? There's a lot of Now's the time to say \"FU\"." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:46", "start": 1545.78, "text": "Yeah, right. And look, it could also give an option for those kinds of people, like, let's say they're, they're sitting on some, a, a, a stack of coins and they're thinking, \"Hey, I want residence, I wanna go and live there and work there.\" Yeah, exactly. And, so as I recall from the event, I think on the bottom of that slide, I think it said, \"Investments greater than a hundred thousand dollars, of the bond will qualify.\" So I think you would And then you qualify for citizenship by investment after five years. So that could also be something interesting for people. And you might be thinking, if you're thinking, if you're bullish on this idea of setting up a Bitcoin city and a financial hub in El Salvador, at, in Bitcoin City, you might be thinking of it like, \"Hey, I wanna skate where the puck is going, right? Like, we think this is where the zero tax, you know, financial hub is going to be, and maybe there's gonna be a lot of other Bitcoin companies and Bitcoin jobs and capital. All concentrating into this area, you wanna be in, in the thick of it, so that's p-possibly the, the bullish case for that aspect of it, right? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "26:53", "start": 1613.06, "text": "I think it's like three bitcoins because at the time that was a hundred K, then somehow the hundred K number stuck. I'm not sure yet, I need to check, but I'm not sure if it's three or three bitcoins or hundred K or hundred fifty K, but, you know, I think these things need to be clarified. But Alistair Millen had some good feedback on, on the citizenship Which was, you know, if you invest, this much in the bond, your whole family can get the, the residence and fast track the citizenship. And if you invest, I forgot his number, it's like five hundred K in the bond, then you get to get preferential, fast track access to buying land in Bitcoin City, right? And I, I think there are ways to incentivize the pot, but, you know, going back to the original point, there's a lot of different people that can potentially look at this bond and say, \"This is for me Then don't invest in it, because obviously it's not for you. You know best." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:48", "start": 1668.08, "text": "Sure. And so in terms of the timing then, so are we looking at early or mid next year, and then it's a ten year period from then? So essentially, the person who's thinking about it, right, because we're doing the breakdown, this person might be thinking, okay, I'm gonna put this money in, let's say a hundred K, right, just to sort of hit the minimum bar for residency, let's say they put in a hundred K, and then they're thinking And they're going to, and then after five years, they're going to be receiving, some Bitcoin dividend, and then at the end of the ten years, they get the hundred K back. But you also keep the residence, and potentially you have citizenship of El Salvador, potentially at that point. Yeah. Is that a fair summary? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "28:29", "start": 1709.11, "text": "I think that's a fair summary. So the Bitcoin coupon, the Bitcoin dividend in the final five years, that's on top of the six point five percent base coupon. So we did some projections, and one of the scenarios was the thirty percent year over year growth, and that would put Bitcoin at like a million dollars, and in that case, the, the yield in the tenth year, just the tenth year, the earlier years will be less, is ninety percent. And then there's another scenario where it could be, hundred and forty percent. So, you know, in the last stages of the bond, I think it could be a very attractive thing for people to hold. And, and I guess that's another market too. it could just be traders that want to sit in, sit-- like normally they would sit in a stable coin, now they could sit in a bond because it is a token, it is a crypto token, and it could also potentially be used as collateral for trading too. So, you know, hoddle the bond, use it to, one x margin long Bitcoin again, right? There's, there's a number of ways to play this game, or just borrow dollars against your Bitcoin to buy the bond, right? So-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:38", "start": 1777.84, "text": "Yeah Because maybe you might be thinking, \"Look, I don't wanna give up Sats, and if I have income that allows me to get a loan against some Bitcoin, maybe that's an idea as well. People might use the whole collateralized loan for that hundred K, get some fiat to buy the bond with fiat, and so that might be another angle. And so then instead of, paying Sats for the bond, they're paying USD for the bond. Obviously they're still paying interest, but that might work out for them. If your" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "30:03", "start": 1802.72, "text": "interest rates are less than six point five," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:08", "start": 1807.74, "text": "then it yeah, you've got to think about that also. And so I think then in terms of operationally, is it going to be essentially trading like a-- like you would go, you would go become a cust-- like, would you have to go become a customer of Bitfinex to get the bond or? How, like, how would you actually buy it?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "30:24", "start": 1824.18, "text": "Right, so Bitfinex is going to be the, initial exchange that, that is, releasing the bond. So they will be getting the first license, and that would allow them to issue this security. so I think anyone that wants the first bond would go through Bitfinex to, to buy it. But once you have it, so let's take one step back, these bonds are issued as a token on the Liquid Network, and they do have a, a, a permission part, and that's done with Blockstream AMP, our asset management platform. So it's effectively a two of two multisig. So you would go to Bitfinex, do your KYC, you would be added to the AMP whitelist, and then if you and I are both on the AMP whitelist Withdraw it to any wallet that supports Liquid and AMP assets, and we can OTC trade it back and forth with one another, just like the Blockchain Mining Note. So there's a Telegram channel, and people are already trading the BMN, you know, OTC every day, but there is no marketplace, there's no secondary exchange marketplace, but they're freely able to trade that. And that would be the same case for any, any bondholder, right? So you'd be able to trade it and buy and sell it with any other bondholder." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:36", "start": 1895.82, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Have you thought about upgrading your Bitcoin security to multi-signature with Unchained Capital? Unchained Capital can help you do this. You can bring two hardware wallets and set up on their website unchained dot com. You can sign up and create the vault on your own. Now, this is a good way to improve your setup by removing single points of failure. This allows you to make one mistake and still not lose your entire stack. Now, if you need assistance, there's a concierge onboarding program where they will actually teach you how to How to do this, they'll send you hardware wallets and they'll do a video call with you to teach you, even if you've never held your private keys before, set up your vault and deposit a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in that vault. Now you can use the code Livera to get a discount on your setup, and don't forget Unchained Capital also offer loans as a way to unlock some fiat liquidity without selling your Bitcoin. That website is Unchained dot com. Brains are a Bitcoin company through and through, and they're working on some unique and cutting-edge projects in the mining industry. They have Brains OS Plus, which is firmware for your ASIC mining machine. They also operate Slush Pool, the first Bitcoin mining pool, and they are pushing adoption of Stratum v2, the next generation pool mining protocol. Now, one really cool thing with Brains is they've got this Insights dashboard, so it's insights.brains.com. On that dashboard, it will show you mining profitability calculations, hash rate breakdowns Breakdown, all sorts of really interesting stats, really great way to learn a bit more about the Bitcoin network and how it is secured. So go and check out their website, brains b r a i i n s dot com. And finally, if you're in the market for Bitcoin hardware security, CoinKite dot com is where you can get Coldcard. Coldcard is my favorite Bitcoin hardware wallet. It looks like a little calculator. Now, if you're a beginner, you can directly plug that into your computer and use it easily with wallets like Specter or Sparrow or Electrum. And if you You can use the micro SD card to do that option of moving that information back and forward. Now, the CoinKite team also sell all sorts of other products, whether that's the Block Clock or OpenDimes, which are like a way of having physical Bitcoin, and they also sell the Seed Plate metal backup product for your coins. So go and check them out, it's coinkite dot com, use the code Livera for a discount. Back to the show. Yeah, right. And so as an example, you might go to Bitfinex, sign up, buy this bond, and then you could hold it on your Blockstream Jade, right? Like you could withdraw the token of this bond to your Blockstream Jade and have it on that or on that. And so the, actually, I'm curious then as well, like how would it work if, you know, as an example, let's say you, you lost the seed words for your Blockstream Jade or your, your, like how would that aspect of it work? Like, is there a central registrar Is providing here?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "34:26", "start": 2066.23, "text": "Yes, effectively. So AMP would allow the service to blacklist those tokens because they're lost now, and because it, it-- like, this isn't decentralized, right? We shouldn't pretend like these bonds are decentralized. They're not. They are a security, and, you know, that's why you have to KYC and you have to be added to a whitelist to, to be able to trade them and, and, and withdraw from exchange, of course. So what would happen is the service would blacklist those old tokens and then issue new ones for you. So the, the net Circulating supply wouldn't change because some of the tokens are now out of circulation, but there is a way to get it back, and we've had that with EXO, for Infinite Fleet, someone lost their keys actually, so they're going to actually get new tokens from, from Stoker. So, you know, there, there is recourse if you lose your key. It isn't Bitcoin, it's, it's a bond tokenized with Bitcoin in it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:19", "start": 2119.43, "text": "I see, yeah. And then in terms of people who are trading it around afterwards, like so, let's say they purchase, the bond, they've, they're holding it, they're self-custodying it, and they're trading it around, as you said, in the Telegram chat rooms or whatever, That part is just kind of peer-to-peer in, but within, I guess, within a, a closed loop of KYC individuals, is it?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "35:44", "start": 2143.88, "text": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:45", "start": 2145.14, "text": "So, so, so from those individuals to individuals, they can say, \"Literally send the token to someone else's wallet, \" and AMP would recognize, \"Oh, it's gone from this person A to person B. We're gonna update our, our registry to, to match what the current holdings are." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "36:02", "start": 2162.18, "text": "\" So yeah, it, it's, it's, using Bitcoin multisig, similar to Blockstream Green, if you set up a multisig shield wallet, the, the Green service will sign off if you send them your two-factor authentication, right? So Basically, you tell Blockstream, \"You can sign now, here's my two factor, \" and then Blockstream will sign. so it's the same thing in this case, if you're both on the list, then it'll sign and say, \"Yes, you can send it to this guy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:27", "start": 2186.67, "text": "\" Right. So as an example, you might, I don't know, as an example, you might have bought, I don't know, maybe you've bought like five hundred thousand worth of it, and then maybe in a few years' time, you're sort of like, \"Okay That's, that's an example, the kind of thing that could, could happen there. So I guess the, and the structure of this overall thing is that the money is going into Bitcoin mining, that will fund, part of this, this whole venture, and of course, the VAT in the Bitcoin City, right, will help fund this venture. So there's a little bit of a tie in there. And so I guess people would be thinking, okay, how long is it gonna be for things to sort of get started being built out and, you know, What, what, what do you see? I, I don't know if you, if you know, what, what's the timeline looking like for people who might be looking to actually go live in Bitcoin City? Do you know, would that be in like two years' time, three years' time?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "37:28", "start": 2247.89, "text": "Well, it's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:29", "start": 2248.63, "text": "a," }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "37:29", "start": 2248.81, "text": "the city is a big project, so I don't expect it's going to be all built out. I would expect it would be in stages. So the first bond is called the Volcano Bond because that money is earmarked to start building energy and mining infrastructure." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "37:45", "start": 2264.88, "text": "Some facilities near San Salvador, but then, they could tap and, open up some, geothermal plants near the, the Conchoagua volcano. I'm probably butchering the name, but the volcano that is near the city, a-and start mining there. But, I think there will be more bonds, so this is just bond one, that's why they're named EBB one, so they can increment, you know, to infinity if you wanted to. But the subsequent bonds would be earmarked for the city, I think, No, like this bond is going to build the city, but all the bonds will be allocated to a specific project or purpose, so people will know. But, you know, things happen very quickly in El Salvador. I, I think it's very different there, and they're very motivated to, build and do it quickly. So I, I would say it's possible the city, they break ground on the new city next year. It's like, i-it's a big goal for their nation, right, to build this thing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:41", "start": 2321.24, "text": "Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think Mikkel's, presentation as well. I think he was trying to say, \"Oh, look, we did this, this pet thing, the pet hospital thing, right? And so I think he was trying to say, \"Look, we, we did this announcement and we built it really quickly and etcetera.\" So I think he was trying to say, \"Okay, this is an example that we can get it done quickly.\" So I guess that's, that's the bullish case. So then potentially, you know, you might, if people who are the real frontier people Yeah, but people are gonna start getting set up there and trying to build that up. I, I think I'm, yeah, I think I'm just really curious to see how that goes. I wonder, do you have any speculations or what you think will happen with Bitcoin City? Do you see it becoming like a hub for bitcoiners?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "39:32", "start": 2372.27, "text": "Definitely has that potential, right? So they have the benefit of geographical proximity to, you know, the US and Canada, as well as all of, South America, right? They're right, right smack, right smack dab in the middle of everything, and that is really good. Like Bitcoin City will have an international airport as part of the design, right? So I could see it being a major economic hub, just like Singapore or Hong Kong, right? It could be this mecca for the new age of finance. Like, you know, digital securities, cryptocurrencies and everything like that, where people are setting up their HQs there, and you have massive development companies move in to build software out of El Salvador too. But I think that's the foundation of a major hub, you know, you have that population and you have, access to a specific region. I, I think, I think there's nothing like that in, in the Americas, right? So it would be the first one to take a stab at doing that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:31", "start": 2430.59, "text": "Yeah, and it could even be That the way that some people now, they might use the, the likes of other well-known low tax or zero tax tax havens now, the likes of, you know, whether it's Dubai or whether it's, you know, Cayman Islands or somewhere where they base themselves there, Bitcoin City potentially could be like that for Bitcoin people. They might say, \"Hey, look, I'm gonna set up my base here, and that's gonna be my base. I'm not necessarily living there all the year, but it's my base, and I'll travel around and go to different places, but come back and drop by and, chat with other Bitcoin people.\" so I guess we're all gonna have to learn Spanish, aren't we? Huh? Yeah, that's what I noticed. I, I need to learn Spanish too. Yeah. So I'm curious as In El Salvador, spending Lightning, what's, what was your impression of that?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "41:24", "start": 2483.6, "text": "I'm not sure I'm, I'm the best person to ask. I didn't get that much time to explore, I was just zipping around from location to location, so I still haven't had pupusas yet. I need to go back again and, and try that. But from what I saw, like, it's, it's a lot different than people make it out to be in the media. you know, if you read about El Salvador and you, you read reports on the news San Salvador, at the beach areas, you know, I didn't get to go to El Zonte, but I went to, Misata, the one next to it, and it, it's very safe and the people there are very warm and welcoming too. So I, I think media often portrays things in a certain way, and you just have to go there and see for yourself before you, you can actually understand what the reality" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:09", "start": 2529.23, "text": "is. Yeah, for sure. and I'm curious as well how you think about the personal security aspects there for Bitcoin? Like, let's say they are well-known Bitcoiners, or maybe they are known to have a lot of coin, do you see that as like a security risk for them going to El Salvador? 'Cause I can imagine there might be some listeners out there who have that question." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "42:33", "start": 2552.52, "text": "Well, I think it's, it's a risk anywhere you go. Like, when, okay, let's, let's break it down a bit. So when you're talking about the, the general environment there and what it's like, I think for normal people, it's quite safe, right? But if you are a well-known bitcoiner with bitcoins, obviously you have a target on your back no matter where you go. So I would still say take some prudent measures, right? Like, it's really up to, you to decide what your risk tolerance is. Like, I Any Bitcoiner in, in any big city would probably be warranted. but, you know, I, I, it's really down to the individual level of what your comfort is. Like, you know, going to New York, I think maybe it might be worth having security too, right? And I, I definitely felt that Salvador was safer than New York. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:21", "start": 2600.62, "text": "Yeah. And it's probably fair to say that, there are definitely times where you might think, a poorer country isn't as safe, but then if you think back to some big cities in well-known countries They're not super safe either, right? Like places like Chicago can have a lot of, you know, shootings and things like that as well. So it's, it's, I guess it's, it's, there's kind of this illusion of safety in some of the big, Western world big cities, so that's an interesting aspect as well. so I'm curious as well, so in terms of like downside risks, let's say we're thinking, we're assessing this bond for investment and we're trying to think about what are the downside risks? Could one Bitcoin City idea goes belly up or, or, there's not as much revenue coming in on that. Maybe do you see that as like that would be potentially one of the downsides or maybe another idea might be, the electric-- the energy, the electricity rate garnered by using geothermal maybe it's not a very competitive rate for Bitcoin mining. What's your-- do you have any thought on that or any insight on that?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "44:25", "start": 2665.43, "text": "Yeah, so, for the city, I guess there's always a risk that the, like any mega development, there is some risk to it, right? And, and does it get to take off and get off the ground? You know, I'd, I'd be crazy to say there's zero risk, right? There's obviously some risk, and it really depends on the execution of the government. But from what I saw, you know, they're, they're all very much pulling in the same direction, and they're very motivated to make something happen. My feeling is they see this as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to kind of fix their nation, right? And this doesn't come along all the time. So the vibe I got from working with all the different departments there is really, you know, everyone is pulling for the, is gunning for the prize, right? They're working evenings and weekends, and you just wouldn't see that in, in say Canada, right? Like politicians are gonna take the evening off and the weekends off, right? Yeah. But, you know, they're hustling there, they're trying to make it happen, It's a really once in a lifetime shot to, to fix, you know, the country." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:23", "start": 2723.11, "text": "Yeah. And actually, I'll add something there as well. I think it was interesting when I went as well, I saw definitely the, the treatment was, that was given for Bitcoin people was like a very privileged access in that way, that they would sort of fast track people through the line in terms of landing at the airport, and they, I think, were genuinely trying to make it a good experience for the people who are attending, at least for that week of adopting Bitcoin and La Bitcoin. That week. So that's certainly an interesting indicator, if, if it means anything. And also, I think during that week, it was that week that they dropped this whole requirement around, test before entry into El Salvador, which obviously appeals to a lot of the freedom-loving Bitcoiners out there." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "46:07", "start": 2767.27, "text": "Yeah, I don't think El Salvador is really a tourist destination, but they, they could be, right? The weather down there is beautiful, it's sunny days almost every day I was there, and, the climate is really nice, the beaches are great, it could be a major tourist destination, I think, especially with the added freedom of, you know, Bitcoin as legal tender. So I think to, to make sure that happens, you have to make sure the country is safe. So there is a lot of, the incentives are all All in the right direction to, to make this, a paradise really on every level. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:41", "start": 2801.49, "text": "And then on the question of executing as a mining venture, right? Because doing geothermal and executing in a cost-effective way, and obviously you have a lot of exposure to the mining world as well, coming from that world, arguably. So do you have any thoughts on the feasibility, the practicality of doing, Bitcoin mining in El Salvador?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "47:06", "start": 2826.02, "text": "Yeah, I think it is very practical. The, the point at which you would argue if it was practical or not is more if, you're trying to operate the geothermal mining as a hosting business, right? So at Blockstream, we're one of the biggest in North America, we do a lot of hosting, and we need to get our rates down because we're charging people for hosting. So there is the base electrical cost, energy cost, plus, you know, our hosting cost and our CapEx cost that we have to cover. So, you know, if, if the electrical cost was ten cents plus, which I think it can be for geothermal, it would make it difficult for us to run this business. But it's a different ballgame when you're a sovereign nation mining, right? Like, it doesn't cost them anything other than the money they need to invest into the infrastructure, right? Once that's done, there, like, from, from the standpoint of a nation state, there is no P&L. It's your own energy and it's your own mine Your own mining farm, your own equipment, your own ASIC, right? So if you wanna mine Bitcoin, you just mine Bitcoin, right? There is no-- you don't have to really worry about what it cost you. If you're in it for the long run and you believe Bitcoin is going to become more valuable, then you just treat it as a, a sunk cost. Like, yeah, we mine Bitcoin, and yes, the, the cost to produce one Bitcoin is this much money, and, you know, that's fine because you have-- you, you, you're a sovereign nation and you The Bitcoin is also yours, so you're just converting your own power into Bitcoin at your own rate of which you, you value" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:41", "start": 2921.14, "text": "it at. Interesting. And so I guess, I mean, it's- I mean, they still face opportunity costs like with their capital, and I, I, I mean, they would still have to-- But I, I understand, I, I understand the point you're making, no? But I, I'm, I'm just sort of thinking it out, right? Because they still face opportunity costs, right? Like if they go and spend twenty cents per coin, or twenty, maybe I'm making a bad analogy, if they, if they spend more than the current price of Bitcoin right now to earn a Bitcoin that's less than that, then it's kind of Fundamentally long term bullish on Bitcoin, which is what's implied by doing a Bitcoin City and a Bitcoin Law and a Bitcoin Bond, even if you mind it unprofitably now, in five years' time, ten years' time, that coin has already risen so much dramatically that you are solidly in the green, in the profit on that. So Well, the thing is, most nation" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "49:36", "start": 2975.77, "text": "states do a lot of things that are unprofitable, right? At least this one makes sense. So, like, yeah, like, you could, you could, okay, let's just put ourselves in, in their shoes for a minute. They could say, okay, geothermal power is like ten to twelve cents, okay, that's expensive, let's go and mine in the US for two cents. But, you know, there is a cost to that too, which is the US could seize your equipment or, you know, someone else could seize it, When you're a sovereign nation and you want to have your own, you know, assets, like the farm, mining farms are assets, the ASICs are assets, you want to keep them within your own borders, right? Close to your own people. So you could-- There's, there's so many different ways to look at it, right? Like that, that is sending it somewhere else to get cheaper power. Yeah, you get a little upside on the cost of producing a Bitcoin, but you lose on risk, right? You're basically, it's like keeping your Bitcoin with a foreign custodian," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:34", "start": 3033.95, "text": "Let's say financially optimal versus what might be sovereignty optimal, let's say, something like that. Yes. And so you-- So yeah, I think, I think it's a good point, and it, it, it takes a certain level of vision and foresight, and perhaps it's also a certain level of having less to lose. So let's say if you were already an established nation, the USA, Canada, et cetera, you might be less inclined to, to go this hard on Bitcoin because you might be thinking, \"Well, I've already got a pretty good-- I'm already Pretty good, circumstance. I don't need to go and take this big career risk of like betting all in on Bitcoin, having a Bitcoin city and a Bitcoin bond and everything. So maybe that's one way to think about it. And also, actually, this is something you mentioned in the Field of Bit event around what happens when other nations play copycat. So I, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on that as well." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "51:27", "start": 3087.46, "text": "Yeah, so El Salvador is already taking the lead on, on Bitcoin as legal tender, right? And we haven't really seen anyone else copy yet. And I, I think the, the root cause is most people are followers and nation states are the same, right? Most politicians don't wanna take a lot of risk. They take enough risk to get reelected. They don't necessarily take the difficult decisions that may be short term unpopular, but long term are the right decision. So that's why I, I have a high level of respect for President Bukele. Because he's taken a very difficult step, like he's going against, major established organizations. You know, you could say he's going against the US too. The US is definitely not happy with a lot of the things that are, are developing right now, right? The IMF isn't happy. A-and to, to take that stance, it takes some guts to do, right? So, I think the other nation states are going to wait and see how this plays out, and it will be the same with the bond too, right? I think once the first- Few bonds are filled and they've raised several billions of dollars through this new structure, through Bitcoin bonds. Other nations will jump on board. It's, it's just inevitable. It's the same, same thing with Michael Saylor, right? And, and putting Bitcoin on balance sheet. You know, people thought he was crazy at first, but once they started seeing it was working, then he's able to raise debt like, like nothing, right? And other con- other companies are also buying Bitcoin and sticking it on their balance sheet. So it'll kick off that same game theory and competition to acquire Bitcoin at the national level, but it's gonna take some, some success first before they're going to take that chance." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:09", "start": 3189.38, "text": "Yeah. And you know, one other thing I find interesting about all of this is that it's pulling in a lot of people to have an incentive to make Bitcoin go well, right? Like all these companies now have an incentive for Bitcoin to go well. We're, we're starting to have El Salvador with a strong incentive to make sure this goes well, so they are going to be Listening for feedback and trying to fix things that go wrong, whether that is, okay, something is with Chivo, well, it's not working, well, okay, let's, let's fix that, let's make it work, because we need this to work. And so I think it's an interesting element, interesting dynamic to see whether-- and it happens whether you're an individual, you're a company, whether you're a country or you're a business or a fund, you just have more of an interest in that, and that might lead you to now think about, okay, sponsoring" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:57", "start": 3237.14, "text": "project or let's say translation of Bitcoin material and education for into local languages and things like that. I think it's an interesting element where you're sort of bringing people into this fold because now they wanna make it work." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "54:11", "start": 3250.83, "text": "Yeah, I think the biggest benefit is probably kicking off competition for not just people, for companies too, right? The, the regulatory environment isn't, I would say overall, isn't friendly towards Bitcoin. There's like some places that are friendly, some that are neutral. But I would say, on average, it's not that great. But if this succeeds, that should kick off, a snowball effect where everyone is competing and trying to have the best possible regulatory environment to draw in talent, right? you know, you can tax unrealized capital gains, you can, you know, monitor every single transaction, but that's not how wealth and prosperity is generated. Wealth and prosperity are generated by smart people, and, you know, great companies building great things. That's the only way Forward. And if those companies and people start going to El Salvador, right? Then everyone else is forced to compete, and I think that's a good thing, because the regulatory framework is just archaic in most places, and in some places it's downright, you know Antagonistic towards Bitcoin, like even within the US, like Kraken vacated New York because of the BitLicense, right? You, you're gonna see more and more of that playing out. And El Salvador is kind of a counterbalancing force to that. They're going to, you know, roll out the new digital securities and securities laws there that will attract people to go and operate out of El Salvador. And you pair that with the legal tender, you pair that with Bitcoin City's favorable conditions, and I think you have the perfect mix and the perfect Catalyst to revitalize the entire region." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:46", "start": 3346.25, "text": "Yeah, and it's an interesting point around securities laws because obviously in the broader-- obviously I think of it as Bitcoin, not crypto, right? But in the, you know, crypto world, there's been very much this sort of trying to get around securities laws. Now, of course, I'm a libertarian, I believe in market regulation and not government regulation, but it, it always is difficult for people, and even in the Bitcoin world, dealing with things like having to KYC, know your customer, AML laws et cetera. how do you think about that idea and where we're all going with this? like what kind of, regulations do you see happening in the future in, in let's say Bitcoin-friendly countries, that might help sort of, Give, give people a, a, a better way to, to deal with these things as opposed to having this like massive regulatory overhang." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "56:37", "start": 3397.27, "text": "Yeah. So I think the, like a lot of the, the, the cryptocurrency projects out there are just useless, right? But a, a security is a security, and we do have security laws around the world. they're all at various stages of, you know, making sense and not making sense, but, you know, generally they're a cumbersome thing to overcome, and I, I would say that's probably a large- Large, well, one factor of why people do, did ICOs because they didn't want to deal with that regulatory burden. But you can do a security token offering without, you know, cutting off your arms and legs, right? Like we did the BMIN and EXO through Luxembourg, and their securities laws are pretty, pretty good and pretty modern, and they're lightweight. I, I think if you do have something of a modern framework in El Salvador, that should make it easier for real companies to re- raise capital through securities. a-and they don't, they don't need to do some shady ICO, right? That, like, they're, they're-- I, I'm with you that I believe in free market instead of regulation, but there, I think there needs to be steps to get there. But one of those steps is making it easier for real companies to raise capital. And You know, we'll, we'll deal with the next step, down the road. But, just getting there and setting this precedent and having something that people can look at and replicate in other jurisdictions is going to be, a starting point, I believe." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:02", "start": 3482.27, "text": "Yeah. And actually, with the Bitcoin bond, do-- is there an accredited investor requirement for that?" }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "58:09", "start": 3489.11, "text": "I don't think so, because it is just a, a bond, right? Like to buy a bond, you don't need to be accredited. but typically access to bonds is, is challenging 'cause the, the sizing, the minimum sizing of bonds is pretty high, like, maybe it's a thousand dollars for more retail focused bonds, but then it goes up to hundreds and millions of dollars for, you know, these kind of bigger bonds, and most people can't buy that. the El Salvador, the volcano bonds are going to be down to a minimum size of a hundred dollars, so I think that will make it far more accessible so that the, Salvadoran diaspora around the world, if they want to help out, they don't need to, you know Ship things back to their home country or remit, they could just buy the bond and help from afar, and it's much lower friction." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:57", "start": 3537.25, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the day, it's another vehicle for people to look into that they might currently be sitting in negative yielding bonds and think, \"Okay, hey, this is, this is a way better deal than what, what they're currently getting, so let's look into that.\" And although maybe their systems won't be fully set up in this way because they'll have to now learn Okay, what's, what's this liquid thing? What's this AMP thing? What, you know, what, what are these aspects? It's a new whole thing for them to learn, but at the same time, their current vehicles are might be more well geared up to invest in the Bitcoin bond than into hold, into hodling directly, or maybe they wanna play a bit of both. Maybe they're hodling some and they wanna do a bit of the Bitcoin bond as well. So maybe that's, one aspect of it. So I, I guess that's probably a good spot to wrap Closing thoughts there for the listeners and around the Bitcoin bond and where, where you see it going and why they should think about it." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "59:58", "start": 3598.01, "text": "I, I don't know your audience, but if there's institutional investors there, I, I think they should start looking into it seriously and figuring out how they can tap into the bond. one, one question that was asked quite often is, you know, why would they buy it? And I think the a-answers are quite obvious, that it is a better instrument than any other bond on the market. And And, you know, can they buy it? I don't know, and that's really up to them to figure out. But creating it as a bond, it, it should allow it to fit into their charter and mandates that they can buy it, and it's really up to them to work things out internally and with legal to figure out how they buy it. Fantastic. Alright, Samson, so, just for anyone who doesn't know where to find you, where's the best place? I'm on Twitter, my handle is excellion, E X C E L L I O N, and then you can look up Blockstream at at Blockstream. Fantastic, thanks for joining me," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:51", "start": 3651.9, "text": "Samson, and I enjoyed chatting." }, { "speaker": "samson_mow", "time": "01:00:53", "start": 3653.46, "text": "Thanks, Tophan. Great chatting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:56", "start": 3656.94, "text": "If you are enjoying the show, just a quick reminder, if you would like to help me, make sure you leave a good review on the podcast platforms like Apple iTunes and so on. That helps new people find me. The show notes and transcript will be made available at stephanlivera dot com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }