{ "episodeId": "SLP341", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "zelko_din": { "name": "Zelko & Din", "role": "guest", "tag": "ZELKO" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.31, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stefan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today we're talking about Ronin Dojo and Tanto. So for those of you interested in Bitcoin for use in more private ways, this is the project for you to consider. So Zelko is the founder of the Ronin Dojo project, so Zelko and Din joined me to talk about some updates. Where the project started. This FOS project ethos, so FOS means free open source software, for those of you who don't know, and we talk about various ideas as well as the evolution of Bitcoin nodes over time, the FOS business and project aspects, Tanto hardware, as well as supporting Specter and Sparrow. 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On the other hand, if you want to use some of the vetted facilities that Compass Mining offer, you can have your machine shipped to that facility and have it plugged in and turned on. Now, you obviously pay hosting fees and then you select which mining pool you wanna mine sat. With and off you go. So you don't need advanced technical knowledge to get started, you can use Compass Mining and they have all sorts of guides and material to assist you in this process. You can also sign up for their newsletter, the email newsletter over at compassmining.io. And now onto the show with Zelko and Din. So Zelko and Din, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "02:51", "start": 171.41, "text": "Thanks for having us, man. We're, we're super excited. Yeah, thank you. Super excited too, man." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:58", "start": 177.59, "text": "So we're doing an update on Ronin Dojo as well as chatting about Tanto. So just for listeners who are new and maybe they haven't heard as much about the privacy aspects of Bitcoin, Zelko, can you give us just an overview on the project and where it's at today?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "03:16", "start": 196.17, "text": "Yes, of course, yes. So Ronin Dojo- Dojo is a, a privacy focused, completely free and open source, node project, and our whole goal and aim is to give you all the tools as a Bitcoin user to be as private as possible, has all of your own tools too, whether it's with, hardware wallets using Sparrow or Specter, or whether it's with, Samurai Wallet using Dojo, which is our main focus, and then also obviously Whirlpooling and Whirlpool Bitcoin can be done now via either Sparrow or Samurai wallet. So we're super excited to have all these new capabilities and, our latest release actually just updated all of our versions, Elect RS, Electrum R server, and Specter got updated as well as, Dojo. So we're all, we're pretty excited about everything that we've got coming and then, all the stuff that we have coming in the future. we're definitely really excited. It's a, it's a really cool project and, I think the best part is that we We're finally with Tanto now that we started to do presales, we're finally able to fund ourselves and keep ourselves going as a false project and not have to rely on these big VCs to come in and kind of give us direction. So that, that's pretty exciting. And then I, I brought with me, our hardware guy, Dinjarin, not to be confused with the actual Mandalorian, but yeah, so he's here. Din, go ahead and introduce yourself. well, and" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "04:47", "start": 287.03, "text": "yeah, I'm, Din. I'm National from, Switzerland, and I have this, typical electric engineering background what we usually learn, in an apprenticeship when we are, sixteen years old. And, yeah, I just ended up then like, as a automation engineer for Swiss and German companies the last fifteen years now, for a commissioning engineer. And, the semiconductor and, the display industry. And, yeah, that's very short about myself, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:25", "start": 324.64, "text": "Excellent. And so just for listeners, if you're new, when you want to act more privately in Bitcoin, part of that involves learning to run your own Bitcoin node and connect your wallet, and ideally use a wallet that has privacy-enabled techniques, and connect your own wallet to your own Bitcoin node. And so this is part of what the Ronin Ronin Dojo project is helping you do if you are willing to go down that pathway. And so, Zelko, perhaps you could just give an overview, what are the main pathways for people? So, I suppose you could just explain for people if they want to build their own versus if they want to purchase the product, could you just spell out what it looks like for them?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "06:03", "start": 362.8, "text": "Yeah, sure. so we have a couple different routes now, ma-a lot more than we used to. But so, we have the Tanto that you can buy from, shop dot ronin" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "06:15", "start": 375.47, "text": "and that'll be, that's a plug-and-play, you know, you literally just plug in all the parts that you need, which is right there, your power source and your Ethernet, and it just, it'll load right up into the new Ronin UI. And then, Otherwise, we're also selling the exact same setup as a DIY kit through Minefarmbuy, and he'll-- he's actually going to be distributing, worldwide. So anybody that hasn't, that wants to pull the trigger and they wanna save a little bit of money, they can buy through him, and that comes with all of the RockPro64 parts, which is our recommended hardware. That is a single board computer for people that don't know, it's a little bit more powerful than a, a Raspberry Pi. Which is famous in the, Bitcoin world, but it's still our flagship and what I would recommend. And then we also support users being able to run Pretty much any, single board computer that they have, we support, we support with our images. some, you know, are a little, have a little bit more, you know, technical hardware power issues, but we're here, always here to help people get through the process. And so yeah, we, we try to eliminate as many barriers as there are for people to transition over. So yeah, you can do it with a Raspberry Pi, you can do it with a Rock Pro 64, you can do it by- Buying a Tanto straight through us, or you can buy a DIY kit through Minefarm by. So those are our main options right now." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:46", "start": 466.24, "text": "Fantastic. And so for listeners, you might be thinking, well, some of the main options are to either run a node on your PC, on your box, or to use a dedicated machine for this, and this is where the Rock Pro sixty-four, the Tanto, et cetera, these options come in a little bit. And so, Din, I know your focus is on the hardware, do you wanna tell us a little bit about, you know, With or what your approach is around the Tanto from a hardware perspective." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "08:15", "start": 494.53, "text": "That was actually a, a really long, journey. I mean, like, so everything started like that, as I said, I'm like this, engineer, like automation engineer, and I'm always used to build things which are like, they just need to run twenty-four seven and they have to be rock solid, right? So, and kind of like, just like two years ago or something like that, I could finally find some time to get my hands on all the node projects, right? I was like, okay, now I have some time, I, I, need to have my own node, right? And I, I bought probably every Single com- single board compute, a couple of Raspberry Pis, and then also the, the Rock Pro, and I bought all the cases and started to play around with all those different implementations, Umbrel, Mineo, and of course also in the, the Ronin Dojo, and then I had my little box, and then usually it's always like a bit like a plastic case with a noisy fan, or like some, some wires, and, and that was kind of like, oh Okay, I need a note, but, I wanna have something very solid. And, I went to, to the local electronic store market, I mean, in Taiwan this is pretty easy to pick up, and they got some like, aluminum boxes from the shell. Was doing some, some drawings for myself, brought it, over to our local tool shop and told them like, \"Hey, can you cut this out? I need, and then, I need this block because I wanna have a passive cooling and this and that.\" And then I had my little customized aluminum block box, not so fancy, and then I was like, \"Okay, that's nice now.\" And I have posted it on the Telegram groups, and sure enough, Silco was just like there and like, \"Hey, what, w-what's that? What are you doing here?\" Right? And, and it all started like this, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "10:21", "start": 621.07, "text": "Yeah, I'll, I'll be honest, the funniest part about the whole experience was, you know, being like, I think at that point in our time, right? Like, for Ronin, me and S2 kinda started this whole thing. We were, you know, some people would be like, \"Hey, we wanna help, we wanna contribute,\" and then they would come in and, and they would help for a little bit, and then they'd, they'd go back to their lives, and, you know, that's kind of the nature of the Dinjaran, of course, like I'm, I'm a Star Wars nerd, so I was like, \"Oh, I know that guy, Mandalorian, cool. \"Um, I was like, \"I like him. \"And then he said, he was like, \"Oh, like I wanna make a metal case for you guys. He's like, \"Would you guys be open to that? \"I was like, \"Yeah, I mean, like, I guess, sure, man. \"You know, like, I didn't have my hopes up. \"Um- And then, I don't know, like within a few weeks, he came back with these like designs and drawings, and I was, I, I mean, and this was not what you guys see now as Tanto, but I was still blown away. I was super excited and hyped up, and, and that's, I think, for the Ronin team, it kind of turned our project from like a-" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "11:36", "start": 695.62, "text": "from like a hobby into a, like we, we can actually, a hobby that we might be able to, like, you know, support ourselves to something that, like, hey, we might be able to, like, do this for the long haul. We might be able to actually provide something that the Bitcoin community needs and is missing, which is, you know, an actual- A-an actual nice product for a full node, and it's not to say the other ones aren't nice, but this one is just a totally different feel. And so I, once I saw especially the Tanto, I was like, \"We're onto something,\" and, and yeah, it was all kind of downhill from there. This guy's been like ten steps ahead of the game, so it was, it was a, it was pretty funny. I just like didn't believe that it was gonna actually come to fruition." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:26", "start": 746.27, "text": "Right. And that's the difference difference between a FOS project and, I guess it's sort of like building up a business around the FOS project here. And so it might be that some of these projects start off as really just like a side hobby thing, and over time, if there is enough community interest and growth around it, then people can start to get paid back for that work that they're doing, that they're contributing into the open source commons as it were." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "12:57", "start": 777.13, "text": "Yeah. I mean, That's a, a really good point. It was, I mean, that, that was our intention from the beginning. We wanted to make things easier for, for samurai users, and, so we built something that was good for us, and then, you know, other people started using it, and that kinda led us into like how we decided to, to do this, you know, our product ma- our product you know, rollout, is it-- we don't want anybody to be forgotten. We remember when, you know, me and S2, we remember when the Red Beast or the, the Notional Dojo first came out, and people getting priced out. Like, we remember that. And, and it's not, you know, it's nothing against them, like they really, they had a really good product, and they had, they, they did what they thought was right, and I don't, I definitely don't knock them for it at all, but that was kind of what started Ronin, and so we didn't want to forget that, you know, we're a FOS team whose whole- Idea and like identity revolves around the community and revolves around everyone being involved and no one getting priced out. so while we do have expensive products, and we're gonna have expensive products, we're also always gonna have free software, or always gonna be able to support different devices. We might not have the time to support as m- in as much detail on all platforms, but we're always going to support it, we're always gonna allow it to run for the tinkers and the people that want to- Do it. and so yeah, we have that kind of, that's kind of why we have that, you know, the free software, we have the, The di- the 3D printed cases for the, for that community, we're gonna have the DIY kits that you can just buy straight from Minefarm by, or you can piece it together yourself, and then obviously the plug-and-play Tanto, and then we'll have another product We'll have another, top of the line product that we'll be shipping out, later on this year, hopefully. but yeah, it's, it's a, a big difference," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "15:06", "start": 906.04, "text": "I think. I also just wanna, quickly jump, jump in this, force aspect. I mean, like, so for me it was kind of like, I mean, the whole timing was just right for me too, you know, because, I just got off of a, a, a project and I had time, right? And, and I really kind of like when Selco and his team started, like, so, really serious about that, hey, can you do this for us? I was kind of like, I'm not a software engineer, right? But I can do hardware, so looks like it's my time now to contribute, to an open source project or to a Bitcoin, right? To me, as a Bitcoiner, I also saw, saw my chance to give something back, right? And this what I could actually do for this community, right? And that was really appealing for me too, and, and especially, in the Ronin dojo project, I could tell like, I mean, there is no revenue stream or Like this is really like they, they don't have any funding or it looks like. So, okay, I have time, I can do that, and I really saw it more as a give back to the Bitcoin community as a whole with my skills. And before I was always thinking, \"Oh, I need to be a coder, right?\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:24", "start": 984.17, "text": "Zelko, I just wanna go back to one comment earlier as well, just around the structure, the business, how, how to make it work. Now, I did an episode recently on VC funding and Bitcoin, and obviously there's- \"Quote unquote crypto VC, and then there are, there are Bitcoin focused VC investors out there. In your case, Zelko, could you tell us a little bit about why you wanted to avoid that pathway, maybe that why it wasn't the right choice for you?\"" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "16:53", "start": 1012.99, "text": "So, I wouldn't say that we, we necessarily were, we were like anti-funding, 'cause I, I don't think that's really the case. I mean, especially once we, once we kind of linked up with, Din, and we had this, this legitimate- product with a legitimate future. We were like, we needed funding, and we kinda knew it, but we did have some like of our own personal money, that we had kinda put in and were ke- was keeping us afloat, and we knew that we could kinda do it ourselves for a bit. Our biggest problem is 'cause we did kinda reach out to a couple people, but so many VCs in the Bitcoin space that we talked to, the first question that we get asked is, \"Okay, so are you, you guys support Lightning, right?\" And we're like, \"No, And they're like, \"Oh, okay, well, it's in the roadmap.\" And we're like, \"No, it's, it's not at the moment, you know? Like, it's not something that we're focused on right now. Like, we're the, the privacy node, like, that's what we do.\" And, and so it's kind of, I, I would say that that's been like the major turn off. And I know that there's gonna be people out there that, that want to, to get in on this project, like, they're We are very selective on who we want invested into our project. Like, we want people who are on board with our vision and not people that wanna try to steer or tell us what to do. If, and at the end of the day, if we could even do it without any VC money at all, because we're able to sustain ourselves Then, you know, like that's even better. But if we did need VC funding, like it would have to be someone that aligns with our ethos and aligns with our, our mindset, which is Definitely against the grain, and I know that for the Bitcoin community, but I think that's kind of what the biggest piece was, was that we're, you know, as a, a node project without Lightning, and we're the only ones that don't have Lightning. I think that's kind of been a, a point of contention, if I had to, if I had to guess." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:52", "start": 1131.96, "text": "I see. Yeah, totally fair. and so as I understand it, then, as you're saying, you would be open to it, it just needs to be the right person or right, group of investors with the right mindset, or at least an aligned mindset, in terms of the privacy focus. And I suppose that's not impossible. I mean, obviously, it's a different project. Samurai Wallet itself has, other outside investors, So maybe that's something where Ronin Dojo as a project, aligned with the Samurai Wallet team, then maybe that's also an angle, down the future. I wanted to also talk a little bit about the hardware aspects of this. So Din, probably this is for you, I know that depending on the way the node has been set up, or let's say how long that node has been running, there can be reliability issues, and I know Zelko, you've probably got things to add on this as well, but let's, let's start with you, Din Your thoughts on, why Rock Pro sixty-four as opposed to, say, Raspberry Pi as your preference?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:54", "start": 1193.98, "text": "I mean, there were kind of like, different aspects. I mean, Rock Pro or, the Rock Pro sixty-four was kind of like really nice because we could, use an M two, a S S T, storage which you could connect to this, X four, so connector, like it had like this native PCI so connector, right? And that For sure, it enables you to sync up the blockchain for the initial block download, much quicker." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:25", "start": 1224.7, "text": "So Din, just could you, if you could explain that just for listeners, what is the M2 SSD? Why is that a superior choice than some of the alternatives?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "20:34", "start": 1233.54, "text": "Yeah, I mean, like so the, the Raspberry Pi guys, they usually use the external, USB three, so connect and just run that things with a external, hard drive. And when you have like a internal connection straight into the board, you know, that is, it's just you have a quicker bus, it just goes faster. But that said, you know, this is just like a advantage what you have in the beginning, like the first, maybe you, you, you save one to three days until you are, ready to go. But, so we also saw that when you use, this, traditional two point five, yeah, inch Drives, I mean, you need more space, you have more cables, you have, it just gets a way more easier for the design. And the Rock Pro, I don't really know actually why they choose the Rock Pro as the flagship. I mean, it is more powerful, but the lucky thing was actually like that, I mean, during, or during this, this chip shortage, surprisingly the Pine sixty-four company, al-also those guys, they produced Rosterock Pro sixty four board. They don't have any supply issues where you see the Raspberry Pi, they even increase the price, and when I ask my friends back in Europe or so, and they're always like, \"Oh, it's out of stock, it's out of stock,\" and you don't have the problem I can't explain actually why this is, but that's also kind of like a nice thing, right? What else? I mean, Zelko, do you-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:14", "start": 1333.55, "text": "Yeah, Zelko, let's hear from you on, on your thoughts around hardware selection." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "22:18", "start": 1337.67, "text": "Yeah, so I mean, we originally decided to make our flagship the RockPro 64 mostly because it was faster, it had, more, more computing power and more RAM, by default at the time. but the, the computing power, the CPUs, that's really, that was like the, the seller for me. And then what he keeps talking about with these, the PCIe, these connectors that are on, that are available on a Rock Pro 64. it's the same thing that you have on a desktop computer. And so these NVMe cards or these, M dot two, it's just a really small stick. So one, it saves a lot of space, but it's also extremely fast. It, it's like the next generation. So most people are used to seeing that two point five inch, SATA three SSD, like that solid state drive. You know, so that, that's already faster, it's a lot faster than like the hard drives that we used to see, but it's, the next one is extremely fast. So the ones that we have in the Tanto, the M dot two, I wanna say the average that we're getting is for the entire block download is about seventy-two hours. Or less. Generally, it's between forty-eight and seventy-two, depending on how fast your internet is. So it's, it's a huge, it's a huge like performance increase. And so having that capability was massive, and then kinda just fell into place with like Rockpro, with Pine being like really good as far as like taking care of the chip shortage and stuff like that. But yeah, it's just a really beefy piece of hardware, and it's really not that much more. It's, it's a About equivalent if you were to buy Raspberry Pi eight gigabyte RAM version, it's about the same price. So, you know, my opinion, I can add RAM, most people might not know that, but you can utilize that solid state drive as a, you know, add swap. From there and just kinda increase your overall RAM capability. I'm not that worried about RAM, I'm more worried about how fast my computer can run and how, how much computing power I have. So that's kinda why we went that way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:32", "start": 1471.8, "text": "Yeah. So just for listeners who are following along and maybe you're not as familiar, I think if you were to look at this space a few years ago, a common thing would just be to have a Raspberry Pi with, and some people were just doing even with spinning hard disk, right? So really like the cheap hard drives. And then over time, I think we've seen a shift there happen because of things like the speed of processing, the growth in the size of the blockchain, the ability to download and sync the Bitcoin blockchain quickly and also to stay up to date. So let's say if we're We're using whirlpool, we've got lots of UTXOs, unspent transaction outputs, and those coins are continually needing to be, remixed, and so having hardware that's more suited for the task, I think that's essentially the evolution we've seen. So as you were saying, we've gone from, people using Raspberry Pi three and Raspberry Pi four with spinning hard drives to then upgrading to those SATA, the two point five inch, and now we're talking about the next evolution, which is trying to use the more advanced- Advanced NVMe M dot two SSD style in order to give better performance and arguably better reliability. So, if you guys could just comment a little bit on your thoughts there around the reliability, the uptime aspects, comparing, you know, the current generation or this new generation versus some of the older stuff." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "25:53", "start": 1552.96, "text": "I, I was like kinda laughing, I'm thinking about back in like, you know, twenty sixteen and like using that Raspberry Pi two. I'm not gonna deep- myself and say that I'm like this, you know, 2013 OG or anything, but I remember, right? I remember, you know, using a Raspberry Pi 3 and using a regular hard drive and like the instr- like following a guide, the instructions were like, \"Yeah, it takes about, you know, two to three weeks to download the blockchain.\" I was like, \"Holy crap, I guess I'll just come back and check on this later.\" It's amazing to see that, that hardware curve that we have. And, and I have no doubt that everyone is going to be following in the same steps. That's, that's the curve, right? Like as technology increases, you know, and the blockchain gets bigger, technology increases with it, and it gets cheaper as, you know, as space, more space is required. So, yeah, it's, it's really cool to see where we're at right now and being able to download the blockchain and people like getting upset when it takes more than like four days and you're like, \"If only you knew.\" The real pain, the real struggle, you know? But, you know, I'm like, come back to me when you've done like forty-five IBDs by yourself, you know, just for fun. But yeah, it's, it's, that's my opinion. I think it's, I think it's just really like, remarkable to see how far we've come. But Din, what's your, what's your thoughts on that?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "27:22", "start": 1642.43, "text": "Now, I'm, about your question about, M2 NVM SSD, I mean, like the spec says they last for like one million five hundred thousand hours, right? So I, I just did the math, you know, when you calculate the classes like a hundred of, I mean, one hundred seventy years Crazy, right? I mean, like, M2, NBME SSD is, super reliable and they don't really break, right? So, and, and that's the nice thing about it, you are just operating in a layer one solution, there is actually no need anymore to have a RAID configuration because those drives that don't break, probably your abort will break, but not the drive, right? So that's, that's a really cool thing about this technology, yeah." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "28:10", "start": 1690.39, "text": "Just, just for like, I, I quickly did the math on that. W-over, say if you did one million hours, I think I did the math right. Yeah. Yeah. One million hours, that's a hundred and fourteen years. But the blockchain will expand past that, at some point eventually. Maybe, I don't know. If Lightning takes off, layer two, we're good, right? And the blocks don't get bigger? I don't know. Is that how it's supposed to work? No, I guess not. I guess I'm just kinda being an asshole. It's my bad. Oh" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "28:44", "start": 1723.55, "text": "my leg, they're good, right? So you don't really need to worry about that they break, right? So that, that, that's the cool thing about those." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "28:51", "start": 1730.73, "text": "It's okay. That's always why Matt gets to say that, Matt O'Dell gets to say that the, blocks aren't full anymore. It's just Lightning adoption. So he's, he's winning that battle." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:04", "start": 1743.54, "text": "Well, yeah, I think what we'll see is there will be some commerce and people who shift to other layers, and that might include Lightning, that might include other things. but that will also make it more affordable for people who are staying on chain. So that is a benefit there for the people who, who are just on chain only, at least for now." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "29:23", "start": 1763.13, "text": "Honestly, I'm, I'm like, it's a win all the way around if we like make on-chain fees and the, that fee market never comes to fruition. You know, like, I think everybody wins. If you wanna be on chain, you can be on chain. If you don't, you don't. It's a means to, we're all working to the same goal, right? Like whether you're a hardware wallet guy or if you're a Lightning guy or privacy coin join on chain person, we're all trying to make Bitcoin better, right? So That's what's important to me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:53", "start": 1793.35, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Now, Brains are a Bitcoin mining company through and through, and they're working on some of the most unique and cutting edge projects in the mining industry. So, firstly, they've got Brains OS Plus. This is aftermarket custom firmware that you can install on your ASIC machine, and this enables you to stack more Sats. It's got auto tuning, which helps you optimize your miner performance and get more hash rate for your electricity bill. They've got a range of supported models which you can, which you can see on their Brains dot com, that's brains with two eyes, and they also have some really cool features such as supporting Stratum v2 if you're mining on Slushpool, you are improving your privacy by protecting yourself against hash rate hijacking, and they've got all sorts of other features going such as the ability to pay zero percent pool fees if you're running Brains OS Plus and pointing your hash rate to Slushpool. So that website is brains dot com. Are you interested to improve your Bitcoin security? Unchained Capital can help with collaborative custody so You can bring two hardware wallets to the Unchained dot com website and set up your vault free of charge, and you would only pay if you need them to countersign for you. Now, if you need some additional assistance, they have a concierge onboarding program, so you can pay for this program, they will ship you some hardware wallets, you can then have a video call to teach you how to set up, even if you have never held your private keys before. So instead of leaving your coins on an exchange or with a custodian, or potentially if you want to upgrade from single signature to multi This is a great choice for you. Go to the website unchained dot com, select the concierge onboarding program, and use the code Laveria for a discount there. And finally, the Coldcard. This is my favorite Bitcoin hardware wallet, and it's from the team at coinkite dot com. Now, with Coinkite, they've been in the industry for a long time, and in recent years, they've been focusing on Bitcoin hardware, and they are continually innovating and adding all sorts of new features. With your Coldcard, you can use it in a single signature setup" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:51", "start": 1910.92, "text": "Or the BrickMe PIN to automatically wipe the device. You can use this as part of a single signature setup, you can use it with SeedExor, which is a way to plausibly deniably store secrets in two or more parts that behave just like the original secret, or you can use your Coldcard as part of a multi-signature setup. Go and check it out, it's CoinKite dot com, and don't forget you can use the code Livera for a discount, and you can order the SeedPlate to back up your coins with metal as well. And now back to the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:21", "start": 1940.8, "text": "So as we were saying around the hardware, what people might have done in years gone by or if they were using a Raspberry Pi as opposed to, like a full box, they might have had more issues if they were trying to support lots of users. So for example, in the, you know, to use our, our friend Matt O'Dell's term, the uncle Jim, if they're trying to be the uncle Jim for their friends and run the node for their friends, but then if they're trying to do that off, say, a Raspberry Pi or a more low-powered device, that can Users have a lot of coinjoin and remix going on, because then there's a lot of coins that that machine now has to track, and it's got to obviously search through its memory, and it's got to keep all of that updated and keep rescanning, or if there is rescanning, then that can be more problematic or a little bit more difficult. So if you guys could comment on that and where you're seeing that today in terms of, you know, using the more advanced hardware and, you know, being able to support deeper wallets, let's say?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "33:21", "start": 2000.8, "text": "For, for like the, the hardware, I mean, that's, that's why that computing power is so important, right? Like if you're, if you're gonna be an Uncle Jim, you definitely want to be running something like a, a RockPro 64, or depending on how many people that you are running it for, I would even say that, you know, having, having a dedicated desktop is probably the like re-most realistic option, like something with a lot of RAM, a lot of power, a lot of like multiple, as much power as you can get. When it comes down to it, like if you were going to be ho-like hosting ten active CoinJoin users or more, like ten active Dojo users, you definitely want those people to all have fast up times and everything else. But For, for us, I mean, if you're supporting four, five, six people, I haven't seen any issues with Rockport sixty-four, and I haven't really tested the upper threshold, I probably should have, but I will definitely do that before the next show. It's definitely not something that I've seen any issues with, and I have some super deep wallets, like I'll be very honest, I keep my wallets active, and I haven't had any, I probably have, I have at least four or five myself, and I haven't had any issues with, you know, the Rock Pro 64. So, you know, it's a really solid piece of hardware, and, you know, hopefully, I see, hopefully we see a trend towards that now that the Raspberry Pi has kind of been seen as, has had that like moment of, you know, flaw. It was like the Tinker's board, but, you know, really when it comes down to it, the fact that that chip shortage hit them so hard and prices went up so high, I, I'd like to see shift to something more powerful, and it just, it makes like transitions easier, even if people transition away from us, if, you know, Umbrel or MyNode, MyNode actually does support Rockport sixty-four, but like if everyone supported the Rockport sixty-four and someone wanted to leave our project, I'm okay with that. Now they don't have to buy two, you know, two different devices just to run two different nodes. Or, you know, like, you know, if they wanna transition from one project to us, that's even better. It does suck when people are like, \"I wanna run the flagship, but, you know, it's, I gotta, I have to wait until I can afford it.\" And you know, like, you just, it, like, it sucks when you hear that, but that's also what makes me happy that we do support, you know, support so many different platforms." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:50", "start": 2150.47, "text": "Excellent. And Din, anything to add there?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "35:53", "start": 2152.58, "text": "Well, I mean, like, I mean, the, the, Rock Pro is, is a really good choice, and," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "36:01", "start": 2160.62, "text": "yeah, as," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "36:05", "start": 2165.46, "text": "Dojo, I mean, Mineo works too, and, I also know that the BTPay server guys, they have a project, it's called Hex, Hex Zero And they also used, RockPro sixty-four actually as their main testing node device. I mean, the, the RockPro is well known from the other projects too. It's just like the whole buzz was so big about, Raspberry Pi because Umbrel is Raspberry Pi only." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:34", "start": 2194.03, "text": "And so the other point that was interesting is around switching between different node implementations, let's say. So if there's- Raspiblitz, Umbrel, Mineo, you know, Ronin, Dojo. How are you thinking about that? Like, is that-- and maybe this is more of a software question, so maybe Zelko, you're the one to ask. How are you thinking about that idea of making it possible for people to transition between different projects? Is that something you're thinking about, or is that not really on the-- not, not really a goal?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "37:03", "start": 2222.63, "text": "No, no, no, it's, it's definitely a goal. We're actually, Likeo, one And, development for this node migration script. And, and we've also been working with the, what's his name, Aaron, Aaron Dues, or I, I don't know if I pronounced it right, but sorry, sorry, Aaron. But he actually kinda hit all the false node guys up and, you know, wanted to work on something together, and that being one of them, 'cause we all, we're all kinda in the same boat where we're like, hey, it's crappy for users as a whole if they want to switch and then they have to re-download the blockchain. Like we all write our scripts to just like delete, if it's not in a specific directory, like a specific location on your hard drive, it's set to just delete it and then start fresh, when, when that doesn't need to be the case. So that's something that we have been working on and we're hoping for the next either, probably not this release, which should be by the end of the month, but most likely the following release, it'll all be done. It's just hard 'cause you need testers, you know? So to test that out perfectly, it's like, I have to reinstall like Mineot or, you know, Raspiblitz or Umbrel or whatever, and then switch over to Ronin. So it's a little bit more of a tedious, testing process. But yeah, we're, we're pretty much, we're right there at the end, so we're excited to be done with that as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:35", "start": 2314.77, "text": "Yeah, and it's interesting that the Bitcoin community, at least the FOS Bitcoin community, the free This, because typically what happens with software is people get locked in, or it's known as quote unquote vendor lock-in. And so in this case, it's like we're seeing the projects actually try to cut against that and go against the idea of vendor lock-in so that people actually do have a choice, and they're just kind of competing as projects on their own merit, but in an open source way, competing but cooperating in a sense." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "39:07", "start": 2347.45, "text": "Yeah, I mean, it, that kind of came down to like, you know, the mutual respect that we all had for each other. I think last year, you know, between the like big debates and stuff that we all had, I think a lot of mutual respect came out of it, like we already had kind of that mutual respect. But it really, it, it really grew to the next level. And, you know, even, even for some of the other guys, I know, the Start Nine Lab guys, I really like those guys despite the fact that they're not Foss. You know, like Matt Hill and, and his whole team, I met a couple times in person, and, and they're really good guys. They're just like, they made a business decision. So even, even with them, like, we've helped each other on both sides. He kinda, he asked me about the Rock Pro 64, and, you know, I've asked him some different business tips and stuff that, that he had insight on. And, you know, so it's, it's cool, you know, it's just because ever you don't have a false license, doesn't mean that you don't have to respect somebody. But it's, I think it's really the approach that everybody has, how willing you are to work with other people and, how willing you are to, you know, share stuff, because that's really what it comes down to, is like, with false, like you're trying to share your code, you're trying to share work together to benefit the community. As a whole. If you don't care about the Bitcoin community, like what are you really doing? You just, you're just selfish. If you care more about your profits than you do about the, the community as a whole, then you're kind of a dick. But yeah, I don't know. That's, it, it's been cool to see, see everyone work together for sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:48", "start": 2448.26, "text": "Yeah, that's great to see. And, so just maybe if you could spell out what it looks like for customers, like, let's say they purchase a Tanto or they install Ronin Dojo, let's say they purchase the parts and they set it up, what does it look like in terms of the interface and getting set up to, let's say, pair your mobile phone Samurai wallet with your Ronin Dojo?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "41:09", "start": 2468.86, "text": "Yeah, so it's It'll be the process, which, oh, man, it was just, used to be super long. So now it's gonna be, with the release at the end of the month, it's gonna be, you know, turn on your node with the image on there. If you have the Tanto, it's already gonna be in there. and just for record, for anybody that like bought a Tanto and wants to, not trust us and verify, which is totally cool, you can unscrew the back, reflash that device yourself, and then go for it. Just for the record. So yeah, you plug it, you start up your device, and then you log into RoninDojo dot local or your IP address, HTTP your IP address, and, your Ronin UI will be up and running for you. You'll create a new password, and from there you're in, and it's gonna automatically start downloading Dojo and the blockchain for you if you're a brand new user. It's already gonna start downloading Dojo for you, you don't have to do anything anymore." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:12", "start": 2532.32, "text": "So for people who aren't familiar, you're basically plugging this in to your local power and your network, obviously, and then it's downloading and you can connect to it off your-- like you are interfacing with it on the web using your laptop or your computer, and you can then check the settings and do things on there, and also, obviously, pair your samurai wallet on your mobile phone. So that's kind of the high level there. In terms of managing things, like, let's say you need to do a rescan, or let's say you need to do different things, can" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "42:43", "start": 2562.84, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So we have a, a roadmap for the, just the UI as a whole, but for this release, what you're gonna be able to do-- So on your main dashboard, number one, it's brand new, totally revamped. Hopefully everyone really likes it. I love it, I think it's sexy, but that's just me. so you're gonna be able to see like the status of, of Ronin, the Bitcoin core, like if it's 100% synced up or not, how many transactions are in the mempool, what block height you're Came in, all that stuff is gonna be on there, and then your uptime of your, your actual system, so how many days or hours your actual device has been left on? As far as maintenance and stuff that you can actually do with it, right? So we have the xPub tool. So if you are trying to scan in a xPub, from a, an existing Samurai wallet, you'll be able to plug that in right into your, your mobile phone. You can copy it from there and just put it over, or you can use whatever you want and, is to copy and paste it into this, into the UI. So you'll be able to check the xPub and then re-scan it and it'll import it for you." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "43:53", "start": 2633.41, "text": "So you'll be able to check transaction IDs. And then if it's not this release, it'll be next release, but you'll be able to utilize Boltzmann with a visualizer, which is for people that don't know what Boltzmann transaction tool is, it's, or Boltzmann calculator, it's what k y c p dot org, knowyourcoinprivacy dot org, it's what they use and what o x t p, or sorry, o x t does for, yeah, it's what they use for, calculating entropy. And how private your transaction was. So specifically, what we, what we're gonna have implemented is a visualizer for Boltzmann. So you wanna see, you have a transaction, you wanna see how many links you have or how private it was, you're gonna be able to see it from your own, Ronin UI. So that'll be pretty cool. and then yeah, you can re-scan blocks and, and pretty much do everything that you need to with your Dojo, right here. And you can check your logs Logs, you can copy and paste your, your logs, straight from the UI. You can even send off, offline transactions. Yep, updates will come straight through the UI now. It'll pop up on the top when it's ready for you to update. And, and for those people that are like, you know, cold storage or offline transaction people, if you have a signed transaction, you can actually pop that in. you can copy the hex format and you can broadcast your transaction action from your node instead of trusting someone else's node. And yeah, you can go in and change your passwords and all that kind of stuff, right from there. So, and again, we're gonna have more features that we're gonna roll out for this, UI, in the following months, but this is step one, a very exciting step. I, I wanted to be able to show you, Stefan, but, you know. You blocked that ability, so that's okay. Next time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:50", "start": 2750.46, "text": "yeah, we'll, we'll do that a, another time, because this one's just audio only. And with the support for Specter and Sparrow, could you just touch on that as well? So for users of Specter Desktop or Sparrow, what can they expect to see?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "46:05", "start": 2765.02, "text": "So yeah, we just updated to Specter one point two point seven, which has been a, a really awesome update. And then, and again, you can access that via local or via- A tour, your credentials will show you exactly where to go. And the other one is, is Sparrow, which I'm super excited about, and I am a little partial towards Sparrow, just be-- I mean, like obviously they implemented Whirlpool. Craig is an awesome dude who's doing really cool stuff, you know, Bit 47, like everything that like Samurai Wallet users have been like saying, like, \"Why is no one else implemented this stuff?\" And finally it happened. so it's pretty cool to see. But, you know, with Electrum, Server, zero, zero point nine point four. We've seen really good results. I know there's been like a heated debate between Electrum Server and Electrum X. And as of right now, that was the downside to Electrum X is just how long it takes to actually like index everything. so we're kind of exploring different options and, it is significantly faster once you have it up and running, like instead of ten to fifteen minutes, it's, you know, seven seconds. But yeah, that's, it's something that we have to look at as far as like a, you know, full user option, if that's something that we wanna look at. But yeah, we're, we're excited. And then from a, the Tanto perspective, right? Din, did you wanna just quickly touch on like the, the design piece, like a lot of the hardware stuff, like he's, you know, like Din's, Din's main focus is like the design, right? The design of the Tanto, the box, the inside, how everything is laid out." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "47:49", "start": 2869.41, "text": "Like why you chose that design, the design the way it is on the outer box, and how that related to like Sparrow and Specter. Oh yeah, I" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "47:58", "start": 2878.46, "text": "mean, as the, software guys Have the roadmap, I mean, we also have kind of like the roadmap for the Tanto, so that means like, I mean, when, when you look inside the case, you know, I mean, you'll see a lot of stuff which are kind of like holes and screws. I mean, we are working on, on upgrade, there are some requirements from the software guys, say we wanna do this, we wanna do that, and, and we are working on it. And there will be some, hardware upgrades that Tanto buyers can actually really use. utilize that thing, right? I mean, from the hardware design at the moment, I mean, it's actually pretty clear that the whole case is, whole, heatsink, so that means you don't have that, that, fan, so anymore, which is the last mechanical part who actually can could break, and you just kept it very simple, right? Also like the power and the, reset button, usually you don't wanna, touch, by accident, so you have to kind of like go in with, with When you wanna do that. And, the light indicator is a request, you know, we actually got it from, Matt, or L, I mean, he said like, \"Look, I just wanna see like, when it's blinking, it's not ready, and when it's on, when it's shiny, I know I can use it, right? \" And it's simple as that, and we just need it, right? Keep things simple. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "49:24", "start": 2963.65, "text": "The light thing is really cool. I'm not gonna lie, like, as like a normal person, I" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "49:32", "start": 2972.1, "text": "where it's gonna be programmed, right, that when you get a whirlpool mix, it's gonna, it's gonna like flash or do something cool or it's gonna, you know, maybe one day we'll have it set to like Tony Stark and it's gonna be like, you know, Jarvis is gonna tell you that you have a whirlpool mix or some secret code so that you don't like talk to yourself that you got a whirlpool mix, you know, like, like something cool. You know, that's the, that's the goal, you know? We wanna make privacy sexy, you know, and that's gonna, it goes a lot, even with LED light, it, it goes right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:03", "start": 3002.98, "text": "Well said. Just around, if anyone's got questions around support, I know this is something you previously were offering, is that, is that still the offering now in terms of people who wanna pay for premium support or how does support work for people who might be looking to either purchase the product or set it up for themselves and get support?" }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "50:21", "start": 3020.73, "text": "Of course, yeah. So, we have Now, which is we have a silver and a gold, premium support. And so what we do with that, it's gold is two months, silver is one month, and you get that like dedicated han-- I don't wanna call it handling, 'cause it almost like kinda- Like, sounds belittling. I don't think it is 'cause I was a handheld person. So, but yeah, it's that dedicated one-on-one time or as much time as you need. and so yeah, you get two months for gold, one month for silver, and that's our current model. We are looking to actually do something brand new, which is, it's gonna actually be able to open up to the community a little bit more, and it's going to be kind of like a bounty type option that we might do, or one-on-one like, you know, thirty-minute calls, et cetera, kind of thing. the whole idea, you know, with support is that you want users to feel you're, like they're Important, 'cause they are. I've spent many hours, especially in the beginning of my journey, that's how I kinda got to the knowledge base that I did, was through helping other people. But if I didn't have other people help me, I wouldn't have been able to learn anything that I did. So, you know, with, with a good support model, it's all about making, making sure that the people feel like they, they're getting what they paid for. And, and you know, like it's, we have a lot of people that actually just pay Just to, you know, help pay our program, help pay for us to, to keep the lights on. So, we appreciate all the people that have done that. And, and yeah, I'm, I'm, we haven't finished ironing out all the details on our new support model, but when we do, it's gonna be really cool. And my partner S2, he's, he's all in on, on making that plan that's kinda his baby. But yeah, so we do have those support models right now, and you can pay with Payment, thank God. Fiat is terrible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:29", "start": 3148.55, "text": "Yeah, that's cool to see. So that'll be good, I think those are probably the key questions I had for you guys, but, if you had any closing thoughts for listeners and maybe if you could, spell out for them why they should, consider Ronin Dojo, consider using Coinjoin and privacy techniques, and of course, where can they find you?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "52:48", "start": 3167.94, "text": "Cool. Hey, didn't you wanna go first? I mean, the, the closing on, On my side, I, I was, I'm super thankful for that, that, once we launched it, after Christmas, they just started to buy it, you know, and I was like, \"Wow, super, super thankful for that.\" Even, We are still, building our Ronin dojo website, so, brand new with all the details and stuff. I'm really looking forward for a super exciting year because we do have a, a roadmap on the hardware side for sure. And, the Tanto is the middle tier, there will be a flagship called the Katana, and we also wanna serve, create something for really, a nice entry point that nobody is left out. That's actually my goal and my- For this area." }, { "speaker": "zelko_din", "time": "53:39", "start": 3218.85, "text": "Yeah. And Zelko? Yeah, so to kinda jump off what he was saying, like, we appreciate all the support that we got, you know, with people buying these things. It's a, like, a real, I don't know, I guess, eye-opener to realize that, like, that we've worked so hard and put all this effort between, you know, Din with his case design and, and, and all the hardware pieces, and then us being able to actually, like, finish the software, do everything that we've, like, envisioned The community support us the amount that they did, you know, was amazing, and so we, we really appreciate everything, that the community has done for us. And, I remember, I know that Stephan, you've been, you were there in the beginning, like you- You saw where we started, so I'm hoping by the end of the month, when you see this next one, you're gonna be like, \"Holy crap, like these guys have come a long way.\" 'Cause it sure feels like that, and, you know, we really wouldn't be here without the community. We really are a false team who legitimately, if we didn't have people come help us, I don't know where we would be. You know, we'd probably still be learning a lot of code and still just passionate about privacy. So, yes, support, support our false team, Steal plates or whether that's, you know, running a full node, buying a Tanto, or, you know, just coming in and, and chatting with our team. You know, it's all about giving back in some way or shape or form. that's what Bitcoin's about, and that's what, you know, free and open source software is about. It's about giving back. So, you know, yeah, I appreciate you having us on, Stefan, and, we're excited to see, you know, see how all the, the feedback is from Love it, and, hopefully everyone gets excited too. Fantastic." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:27", "start": 3326.78, "text": "Alright, well, thanks very much for joining me, Zelko and Din, and listeners go check out RoninDojo.io. Thanks, guys." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "55:35", "start": 3334.59, "text": "Thank you very much. Thanks, man." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:39", "start": 3339.28, "text": "Get the show notes at stephanlivera.com/341. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }