{ "episodeId": "SLP343", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex": { "name": "r0ckstar dev & Pavlenex", "role": "guest", "tag": "R0CKSTAR" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.55, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today for episode three hundred and forty three, my guests are Rockstar Dev and Pavlenex, known for their work on BTC Pay Server, as well as some other projects such as Bitcoin Smiles, Bitcoin Design, and Strike. Now today we're talking about career opportunities in Bitcoin and open source. We chat a little bit about BTC Pay four years on, as well as how open source projects grow, how they mature, how do you even move on from a, from an open source project, as well as Rockstar's big announcement. 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It looks like a little calculator, but you can use it either by directly plugging it, if you're a beginner, to your computer, or you can use a micro Now you can use it easily with wallets like Electrum, Specter, Sparrow, and there's all sorts of different configurations that you can use it in, as well as all sorts of features. One I particularly like is the address explorer, which allows you to check if you truly hold the keys for a given Bitcoin address. This helps us stop the risks of our computer being hacked and accidentally trying to receive to the wrong address. So go to coinkite dot com and use the code Laverara to get a discount on your cold card. And now onto the show with Rockstar and Pavlenex. Rockstar and Pavlenex, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "02:58", "start": 177.57, "text": "Hey Stefan, it's awesome to be here. Thanks for having us once again." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "03:02", "start": 181.75, "text": "Yeah, say the same. Hey Stefan, thanks for having us back." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:06", "start": 185.62, "text": "Fantastic. Well, you know, it's, really great to chat with you guys again. BTC Pay Server has now hit, as you, I think you were saying, we've gone over four years now that the project has been going and it's now into the fifth year. And, yeah, really interesting just to see where it has gone as a FLOSS The opportunities and things that have come to everyone, for being a part of it and other projects that you, you guys are both contributing with and working with now. So, Rockstar, do you wanna just give us a little bit of your thoughts on what it was like in the early days of BTC Pay and, where, where it is at now?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "03:44", "start": 224.28, "text": "Well, it was always amazing because really, one of the main reasons I joined BTC Pay Server is that I wanted to code together with Nicholas for quite a while. I mean, we, we go- A while back, even before twenty seventeen, since both of us were contributing to this website code project, but, amazing then, even more amazing now when you look at how project has developed over four years and, you know, four, full four years and then fifth year going strong, and, then you look at all the people you met along the journey, including you, Stefan, and all the support you've given to BTC Pay Server over the years. So amazing then, even more amazing now Now and can't help but become a lover of open source, which I am now." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:30", "start": 270.47, "text": "Awesome. And, Pavlenex, let's hear a little bit from you. As I understand, this is one of the first, if not the first, open source project you became involved with as a contributor." }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "04:39", "start": 278.82, "text": "Yeah, that's correct. BTC base server is like the first, project that I really, started loving and got involved in seriously contributing to it. it helped me find my place under the sun. And, yeah, previously I contributed to a few open Projects, but it was more like on the translating side of things. So BTCPay is the one that Nicola opened the door to and invited us to help it grow, and amazing to see the growth of the software, but even more amazing that we really all became very close friends while we developed, open source Bitcoin software. So quite a journey." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:15", "start": 315.02, "text": "Yeah, that's really cool to see. And I think for some listeners, they might be thinking, \"Oh, I'm not technical, I can't, I'm not a developer, therefore it's not for me.\" What would you say for that?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "05:25", "start": 324.87, "text": "Developer here, I guess I will re- reply to this one. I mean, anyone can contribute to an open source software like, there is no, it's like a, a wrong opinion that only developers build open source project. Like without translators, without people providing support, writing documentation, even recording videos, which is also how I started. Open source isn't just as, as, easy for people. So there, there are so many things you can do to in open source, and I'm certain That any skill can be used. So if you're just thinking like, \"I don't have skills,\" yes, you do. We all do have a certain thing that we are good at, and we all can contribute and help open source. So regardless of your skills, just get involved, start talking to people, and it will be, I promise, an awesome journey if you're patient enough to live through the, usual cycle of, an open source contributor." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "06:20", "start": 379.54, "text": "See, this is what non-technical contributors keep telling to themselves, you know, \"I'm, I'm worth something.\" I go, \"No, in, in all seriousness, there is so much to do on open source project, and then also open source projects help develop people. So we couldn't get develop Pavlenex into coder.\" But But, there, there is like a secret. He, he actually runs Visual Studio or VS Code or something and tests, instance locally. So For most people, that would count as technical contributor as a tester, but no, it's, it's all about believing in mission and then finding a place doing, doing whatever it takes and, you'll do fine in any open source, project. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:08", "start": 428.39, "text": "Yeah, and Rockstar, I know you're known for taking a very, like, a role of helping mentor new contributors as well, a-and I think Pavlenex, you're also very involved in that, in a role in like coordination, project management aspects of it as well. so could you comment a little bit on what that journey looks like for a new person coming into the project, and then over time as they develop and perhaps take on other roles inside the project?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "07:34", "start": 454.15, "text": "Yeah, I must say in open source it is, and why people like it also, it's more unique to and tailored to each contributor. Because first there is that time where you get to know new contributors, and then there is always transition period because people come in and they're all excited and say, \"Oh, I'm, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that.\" And then you see if they will actually do it. Especially as BTC Pay server has grown in popularity, then really you, you get messages every day. People doing something, and then now we also have a situation where programs like, you know, Summer of Bitcoin that everyone mentions, for example, then sends some, students, interns to contribute. So I, I would say it's, it's about that, and, that's why also you should be looking into open source projects because there is potential to tailor how you will work on that project, like more to your skills and qualities. But Pavlenex, yeah, also takes a lot of debt, a lot of effort into training new people to projects. So I'm curious to hear his insight as well." }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "08:49", "start": 528.87, "text": "Yeah, I just wanted maybe to show how my journey has been, because it really BTC Pay Server and open source really like helped me grow personally, like, before BTC Pay, I was more e-commerce type of guy, you know, running shops, and then came BTC Pay Server. I started very, like on a sim-- doing simplest tasks because Nicola- and Rockstar opened the door. That is very important that you have like an open source project where maintainers really want contributors. Like there are projects that don't want contributor, there is just one guy running it, they don't want complexities, they don't want community, just they, they're just having fun. And then you have like an open source project like BTC based server where, you know, it started Nicola, you know, also having fun encoding, and then it grew because he, delegated and got people involved. So they opened the door to me, and I- I simply provided, support first in the our channel on Slack. It was like I helped people, you know, register, and then I took notes on the things people were struggling with, I reported back to them, and that's how we started in, in, you know, talking to each other and get to know each other. So then I started recording videos, and then I wrote technical documentation like me, the e-commerce guy, I, I never was technical enough, and then started like writing documentation, recording videos, and then I realized, well, okay, maybe somebody else Can do this, and this is how in open source, and I'm sure Rockstar will fill in on this, you create space for other people. Like, you reach a certain level, and then you create space for other people to fill in, and then you, you know, do some other tasks. Then I started helping them with, developers, of course, with the release cycles and things like that. So it's a very interesting journey, and, yeah, you personally grow through it, but also I think what is very important is that you leave space for others. So it's They take a certain position and don't want to onboard people. And there are so many topics now where, where, where we can even talk like onboarding, how does that start? Maybe Rockstar bonds, because he onboarded so many contributors, including the ones that are part of the core team like Rick Kelly. So maybe we can also talk, talk about how a new contributor is onboarded even on the first place. How, how did they, they arrive at the project and how do you get them to commit actually?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "11:04", "start": 663.88, "text": "No, I may jump in there to say you described it well. It You scout out an area and build out the area, and then you find someone that will take that area of the project. And, yeah, it's, it's that one-two process basically that we have saw. Repeat itself over and over. And, yeah, that's what I would recommend not only for people joining, that you can see that there is area for you to contribute, but people that are already in open source project and want to get more contributors in." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:38", "start": 697.89, "text": "Yeah, and I think it's also valuable for people to have some perspective about how new contributors might start, because as an example, there may be some people who already have a full time job, and they already are doing their normal job, but just they wanna do something extra on top, and they w- This is where their passion is, and that's for some people, and then for some other people, maybe they're coming in and it's more like they are trying to get more involved in the Bitcoin space and contributing in an open source project is how they can demonstrate their skill and show their portfolio to future actual employers who are gonna pay them to do that. And in other cases, maybe the project gets sponsored and there's funding from that. So maybe you guys could just talk a little bit about what that looks like for, people who might not be as familiar with how it works." }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "12:24", "start": 744.32, "text": "I mean, as you were talking, Stefan, I was already thinking about something else. So this will be a completely random thought, about open source and sorry for like rambling a little bit, but I just realized as you were talking, about how people get onboarded, I realized that most of the contributors actually got onboarded to one-on-one conversation with people. So it's people who onboard people. I remember we have so, such an extensive documentation on BTC Pay, how you can contribute. We wrote so many articles, recorded so many videos, but just thinking back about it But I think it's that one-on-one conversation that we had with people, those are contributors that, you know, we helped grow and got on board on the project. So that, that's the cycle, and I'm sure Rockstar can also, confirm this, because I, I don't remember that we got a contributor who simply read documentation, watched a video, and start contributing. It was always like, maybe there are certain cases, but it was always like a one-on-one conversation, us mentoring them in a way and helping them get around. So I think that That's very important to, to talk about when it comes to, you know, getting people involved in the open source in the first place." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "13:31", "start": 811.23, "text": "No, it's definitely like that because even going back to the start of this conversation, when I said, I joined BTC Pay Server because I wanted to code with Nicholas, you know, so it's, it's that connection that you, you already have. So if- You know, maybe you are a user of some open source project like Pavlenex was, and then he joined and, Nicholas called him Bitcoin Shirt for, for like three years because he, he had Bitcoin Shirt website and was a user of Bitcoin TCPay server, so that's what I would encourage people is, you know, see which project, in Bitcoin or in open source wider you, you like and where you would just enjoy spending time with other people and that should show you the way. And then if you are already in, in, in the project, it's also about what Pavlenex said, number one, do you want to grow the project, an open space for you? People or maybe, maybe you don't, maybe you like your little kingdom the way it is, but then yeah, you make it obvious to people so they can find another project. So all, all about that, you know? What speaks to you, meaning?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "14:51", "start": 891.22, "text": "Yeah, and I think what Stefan told us like that people can join an open source so that they can gain skills, but also when they are applying for jobs, get in a way a portfolio. Especially in Bitcoin space, I think I haven't encountered a company that really doesn't value like, contribution to an open source project, and I'm sure, especially in Bitcoin. So, Rockstar, you can probably confirm this since you're at Strike, but I do think, there are people in this world, and I'm specific- We're living in a country where we don't have internships, our colleges aren't as good as onboarding you to get a job, so we all have to do it ourselves. that's how I think that other people, no matter where they are from, they just get this opportunity to work with awesome people, build, and they can then list this, in their, you know, CV. You know, I, I built this, I helped this. It is very important if you're, on a career path in Bitcoin that you start contributing Of course, even from that angle, though there are people who probably view things from different angles, there are people who simply use the software, want to, want, want it to be better, there are people who find it just simply fun and they want to get involved, and then you have people who are building in a way a portfolio, and that's very interesting angle that you now unwrapped, Stefan, I think it's very, very important." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:10", "start": 970.21, "text": "Yeah. And Rockstar, do you wanna add anything there in terms of, you, I'm sure you can add some insight there, obviously you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:19", "start": 979.48, "text": "Of course, angle is important for you from a hiring context, also, correct?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "16:24", "start": 984.1, "text": "Correct. I mean, you know, if, if you have great GitHub profile, you go in one funnel. If you don't, well, bad for you. I don't know. Ex-expect to be more evaluated and tested. No, when I see great GitHub profile with, contributions all over the place, especially in open source, then you know you're getting someone who isn't that open source at Bitcoin ethos and, Evaluation like there doesn't even need to be evaluation because you can re- you can see how does this per-person interact with others. How d-what's the code quality of this person? It's all there, it's organized and, as soon as you see that kind of portfolio in- Anyone that I've saw over the pro-interview process at Strike that had good GitHub profile, I mean, they pretty much passed. And I've done at this point hundreds of interviews Strike over last year or so and, yeah, not, not a single one didn't pass whoever had a great GitHub profile." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:37", "start": 1056.86, "text": "Excellent. And, go on, Pavlenex." }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "17:39", "start": 1059.46, "text": "Yeah, I just wanted to add that in a company, like, you need to listen to your manager or whoever it is to build something. There isn't as much as creative freedom as there is in open source. Like, people keep telling me, like, in open source there are way too many barriers for people to get on board. Well, guess what? It's not true. Like, in open source, you can have somebody building something, showcasing it to community, and it will immediately get accepted if it's, if it is something that aligns with the project goals or whatever it is. In a Stakeholders, which, you know, needs to sign off to something in open source, you have way too much freedom and creative freedom to build, and you can, very easily create projects, build portfolio and excel because there is no way, for anybody to limit you. So your, freedom is like open source is freedom in ev-e-any aspect of it. I just wanted to add that, that people should really consider it. I, it may look hard, it may look close, but it really isn't. Just You know, give it a try and you'll see it's very easy to grow and do open source. And people who didn't have that chance to work with companies, I think, can really, really use open source to get a job later on. And you can compete with people who work in corporate, the big corporations just by being an open source very easily." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "18:58", "start": 1137.96, "text": "Because in companies you can even see that model of, you know, you do work and then the end goal is some kind of reference or recommendation, right? That, that you have signed by, as you said, Pavlenex, your manager. In open source, you are building your portfolio on your own and there is nothing to sign, it's just your GitHub profile speaks for itself." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:22", "start": 1161.57, "text": "Yeah, and that profile that you're building up can also lead in other directions, and actually just being part of an, an open source project can lead to other opportunities and things coming up, right? And I think that's true for both of you gentlemen. Pavlenex, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about how being involved with the BTC Pay Server project led to your involvement in other projects?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "19:44", "start": 1183.86, "text": "Yeah, well, as I mentioned earlier, I started growing through BTC Pay Server, right? we became, we started onboarding other people who took over certain tasks that I was doing, and then I was left with a little bit of more time. And I think it is very important, especially in the Bitcoin space which moves so fast, that people are building and getting involved in as many communities as their capacity allows them to. So one of my goals was to, you know, get involved in some other projects, work with some other people. Build some other stuff that I can learn from and then implement it back into BTC based server. So thanks to Rockstar and the, who was first mentoring me like, \"Well, you need something else.\" And that, that's also how open source is great, like we talk to each other like true friends, and he started telling me, \"Well, you need to look into, you know, expanding, doing something else.\" And then I started, I applied for, formerly Square Crypto, now it's Spiral, I ap- ap- I applied for a grant and became, first I Which builds, free and open source tools for designers and application builders so that it is easier for them to have UIs and they, we are designing Bitcoin Design Guide, which should, allow people to build, applications on top of Bitcoin way easier with something that, that is already tested and what, a bunch of designers basically already designed, so I started doing that and then led me to many other projects that I got involved. So that, that is, regardless like in which project We are involved, that is, that's how BTC Pay Server is also like, all of us are involved. There isn't a single contributor who is doing, doing BTC Pay Server only. Like from all of us, we are all involved in as many projects because it is important that we bring this knowledge to, back to BTC Pay Server and to other projects. That's why we are, we are involved in as many projects. And I'm also part now of, Bitcoin Smiles community and a few more, but yeah, I just wanted to let you know that it is very important that people are If, if they can, because there are so many people building awesome stuff that you just don't want to miss it. You need to get, you know, into it and, you know, talk to people and build stuff." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:53", "start": 1313.45, "text": "Yeah. Anything to add from your side, Rockstar?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:56", "start": 1316.12, "text": "Yeah, there is Bitcoin smiles because you kickstarted Pavlenex. So Just didn't happen on its own, but yeah, we talked about profile building and it's not one way street. By contributing to open source project, you're also building up your profile, your portfolio, and then other people see it. I mean That's how I met Jack Maillers, because he saw what amazing rockstar developer I am and, we hit it off here in Chicago. He was also-- He, he built his own profile by contributing and coding Ellen's app. So you just start being part of open source community and then get connected with people and And it helps you grow because it's all out there, especially when you connect it with a Twitter presence, become part of Bitcoin Twitter, and then You, yeah, you grow. so for me, b-besides BTC Pay Server, I started contributing to Alan Zap on and off and then- When Strike was starting, Jack just called me in and said, \"Help me out build this.\" I also know you have startup experience, and a little bit later, here I am, VP of Engineering of Strike, being in those hundreds of interviews now. Yeah, it's not open source, it's more hiring people for regular job." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:22", "start": 1401.58, "text": "Yeah, and, I think this is actually a good question for you as well, Rockstar, that just that comparison between the fiat career versus a career in Bitcoin. So if somebody's out there, let's say Say they're working in a more fiat job and they're thinking about whether they should work in a Bitcoin related job or Bitcoin company. What are your thoughts on that?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "23:41", "start": 1421.39, "text": "Nah, they shouldn't. They should just stick with their fiat job and buy Bitcoin. No, I, I, I joke about it a lot, especially in context of what's happening now, all, all Sofia jobs switching to remote, and then because in most of the Sofia jobs you're part of that high velocity trash economy. I mean How can you have a meaningful job post in, in position where it's everything is like, we need to launch product tomorrow and the life, life cycle of project will be three months? Or six months. So I think in, but no, honestly, like if you aren't via a job where demands of the job aren't too much And, you can coast by, yeah, like I, I tell to people, maybe you should stick in that via job and then just buy Bitcoin. But if, you do want meaning, you don't want, you don't want purpose, Bitcoin is that new frontier, and that's why You almost have this phobia that I see it being part of Strike. I mean, we have so many people wanting to join Strike to be, you know, to partake in this Bitcoin revolution that's happening, and, I think it's individual for, for each and every one of us, you know, if you hear the calling of Bitcoin and it's so strong, yeah, then go for it. But I, I think what I don't want to see for most people is, is that idea that you can- Directly translate a lot of stuff from, from via job. It's like, if you're joining Bitcoin, you need to be aware it is new frontier, but then it is a wild west in a sense that you need to have quite that capability. You can't just have a specialized job, specialized job post that's, \"Oh, you do this one thing.\" No, you need, you need to be willing to, really do whatever it takes, take on multiple responsibilities, and I think- I think each one of us on this podcast can talk to that because you, Stefan, also you're part of Swan Bitcoin, and it's not, oh, this job is well defined and cut out. No, I mean, there is a lot of- Figuring out to do and, you know, if you wanna partake, you know, make, make your place in Bitcoin revolution, like expect that. That's, that's the only thing I would tell people to focus on," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:09", "start": 1569.12, "text": "Yeah, and to be clear, I'm not saying everyone has to quit their fiat job and go join a Bitcoin job. Of course, it is a different, consideration for everybody, but for some people, it might be that this is closer to their passion or they might really feel more rewarded by this, and maybe they might even be willing to take a pay If that, if it even comes to that. But, Pavlenex, I wanted to get your thoughts as well. How should people out there think about it? Do you have any perspective to share with them if they're currently in a fiat job and thinking they would like to work in the Bitcoin world in some way? How would you think about that?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "26:43", "start": 1602.76, "text": "Yeah, I think that what Rockstar, he said one keyword which is meaning, and I'm not, of course, not anybody can-- everyone can find meaning to contributing or working on a Bitcoin job, but I'm seeing it way" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "26:58", "start": 1618.03, "text": "A meaning, like do you really want to work on something and earn money, or do you actually want to work on something meaningful that will change the life of so many people? And I do have one tip for people who are uncertain, and th-this is where our story about contributing to open source really well connects well. Well, just start contributing to an open source project, see how that works. Like, let's give BTC Pay Server an example. Like, you have, people who come here and they sell, well, I want, they tell to us like, we want, I want to sw My career and start working on a Bitcoin company, how do I do that? And even some of our contributors, it was a transition for them, like it took quite a few months. We start, we told them, start slowly, like start contributing to this open source project and see if that works for you, because it is chaotic, it is not as structured, as it is in a, in a big corporation, and that's the beauty of it, like finding meaning through chaos is awesome for me, and for me it works, but it might not work for you. So One way to see if you will fit in, because most of the Bitcoin companies are taking ethos from open source, and there is like a line is getting tinier and tinier and, I, I'm certain that at certain point, all of them are in a way, an open organizations where everything is transparent and open. We are, you know, going into that direction, the way I see it. But yeah, just start, contributing to open source, it will not only help you land that job easier, but it will also help you decide if Bitcoin and the pace of development is right Perhaps you're, you know, you prefer, tighter organizations and you prefer like software being developed slower, but if you're young, like, you don't want to miss, miss it, like, it is awesome, it gives you meaning, and I really whole-heart-heartily recommend people to just start doing it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:45", "start": 1725.1, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Are you looking to get started with Bitcoin mining? Compass Mining can help. Compass Mining make it easy for you to select an ASIC machine that you can purchase and have that shipped either to your home in the US or to a facility That has been vetted by the team with competitive power rates. Now, for many of us, we don't have access to competitive power rates in our residential areas, so that angle might be interesting to you also. So the website is compassmining dot io, and if you go there, they've also got a newsletter as well as audio content that you can use to stay up to date on Bitcoin mining. That's compassmining dot io. Now, if you're securing your coins and you wanna give yourself some additional peace of mind, Unchained Capital can help you with collaborative custody. So instead of A single point of failure, which could be your exchange, your custodian, or potentially even a single signature hardware wallet, you can use multi-signature. With Unchained, you can hold two keys and they can hold the third key. Now, if you're not sure about how to set this up, they have a concierge onboarding program where you can pay, they will ship you some hardware wallets, they'll do a video call with you, teach you how to set up your Bitcoin hardware wallets, and then create a vault and deposits in Bitcoin in that vault. So this is a great way to Go to Unchained dot com, select the concierge onboarding program, and use the code Livera for a discount. Now, for those of you interested in Bitcoin mining, you've got to check out Brains dot com, that's Brains with two i's. Brains offer a range of products and services in the mining world, so they have Brains OS Plus, this is firmware you can install on your ASIC machine, and it's got auto tuning, so you can optimize your performance and get more hash rate for your electricity bill. Now, check out the website for the currently supported models." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:28", "start": 1828.05, "text": "S19 Pro, T19 and S19 J, and there's various different other models that you can check out on the website. Also, if you're using BrainzOS Plus and you're pointing your hash rate towards Slush Pool, you are supporting Stratum v2, you're improving your privacy in terms of protecting your hash rate from hijacking with end-to-end encryption, and also you're receiving zero percent pool fees, which is a nice benefit for you there. Now, for some of you, if you have the right skill sets, you might actually be available or applicable for a job With Brains. Now on their website, on their careers page, you can see which roles they are hiring for, so that's a great place also. And so that website is brains dot com. Back to the show with Rockstar and Pavlenex. Excellent. And I think it is important also to point out that not everyone has to go get a Bitcoin job, right? It, for some people, it is just a side thing, right? They, they have their normal job doing whatever they're already doing, and they just wanna contribute to some project. And then there are other people who go all the way and they're saying, \"No, I wanna actually get a Bitcoin job.\" And I guess while we're here, we might as well mention Bitcoiner Jobs dot com. So this is actually a project where you can find-- it's basically one website" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:40", "start": 1900.14, "text": "Looking for employees, you can go and post your profiles there, or if you're an employee or a candidate, you can go post a profile there. I think you can even do that pseudonymously as well. So that's something for listeners out there, this would be probably a useful resource for some of you out there. Any other thoughts on this, guys?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "31:56", "start": 1916.3, "text": "Yeah, if you apply over Bitcoiner Jobs, for Strike, you'll get to talk with Uncle Rockstar. Now we'll have, listeners apply. But no, other than that, Bitcoin Twitter profile, definitely very helpful in all the hundreds of interviews I've done. GitHub, Mast, Stack Overflow for technical contributors, definitely. And then for non-technical people, I mean, I don't even need to tell, they already probably have LinkedIn. But on that LinkedIn, just see that someone gave you a recommendation, obviously, what we talk- Talked about transitioning from fiat world where it doesn't matter what you did, what matters is who can give you reference and, and, and sign it. What else? you know, check your resume for spelling mistakes. Now, I'm-- At this point, I've seen thousands of resumes and good resume really stands out. Besides that, cover letter really, like, if you really want some position, you just need to write how, how you will contribute to, to that job that you're applying for. It doesn't need to be to, you know, oh, please give me this job or whatnot. Like, it's even better when it's not, when, when you say directly, \"Hey, this is what I wanna do.\" But besides that, yeah, pretty much, I think we covered all the bases." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:17", "start": 1997.07, "text": "Excellent. And so, I guess bringing it back to the broader idea around open source projects and contributions, what about as, you know, dealing with your role changing? So, Pavlenex, you were mentioning some of this earlier as well. How do you deal with your role changing over time, and how do you actually open space for other contributors?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "33:38", "start": 2017.78, "text": "Yeah. I think that's, stage in which all of us at BTC Pay Server were, at some point. It's a tough decision and tough situation until you realize it is awesome thing to happen. At first, you are a little bit scared, like, \"Well, am I being obsolete from the project? Am I good enough to even contribute to this project? Like, what do I do?\" But then you realize that you just, have to accept that you personally, have been given this opportunity to contribute and to grow, and that by letting other people in, it is even more rewarding to see contributors who are on this project who, we helped get in and grow. So, I'm sure Rockstar has probably a better philosophical perspective on it, but in my view, it is very simple. You just, you know, advance from one thing to another and always need to mentor somebody and give them space because, yeah, this is a blessing and just allowing other people to feel the same, it is even better than you working on all of these tasks like delegating, onboarding people, and just accept that at a certain point, it needs to be decentralized. There shouldn't be any, A central point of failure, and it is good that open source, there are many people who can take on a certain task, and it shouldn't depend on solely one contributor." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:51", "start": 2091.47, "text": "Yeah. And Rockstar, how do you deal with the roles changing over time?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "34:55", "start": 2094.56, "text": "Listen, Pavlenex invited my philosophical approach, so Livera, you'll need to, you know, excuse me, but I'm going to go full out and say that I see it as, as like you're this old wise turtle that I am, and you're growing armor, right? And then you grow this armor, and it's time to leave it there for new youngin turtle to move in, right? And, and grow into that armor. So that's what Uncle is doing, of just growing bunch of armor for little turtles that then make it their home. And, that's also why we, we previously mentioned that there are some open source projects where you have one person That's sticking with that project for five, ten years, and it's just they grow to like that specific armor they're building, and now there is no place for new contributors to move in. But to me, success of BTCPay server over last four years has caused, like my nature of my contributions to change, right? I was the guy that- Was coding pretty much with Nicholas and now I'm a guy that if I start coding and, you know, criticizing PRs and doing my own PRs, then there won't be a space for new contributors. So you should just be comfortable with, with whatever, you know, identifying, as, as we also said in the beginning of conversation, you're scouting out, you're seeing what is this new area that I can scout out, fortify, and then give it over to someone because Because, just think about it like it will develop you immensely because, and it's open source project, so if you do fail, it's not like you'll have some boss to criticize you and say, \"Oh, you did terrible on Livera.\" It was terrible podcast. It's like, no, you, you have that freedom of, of being who you are, giving it your best shot, and then over time you, you improve. So you just need to be, you need to be willing to fail and then let it go, you know, if, if, if you do fail. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:57", "start": 2216.71, "text": "Pavlenex, I also wanted to get your views around the, the Bitcoin Smiles project. This one is relatively new and maybe not everyone's heard about it, so just give a bit of an overview for us. What is the Bitcoin Smiles project and what have you learned?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "37:08", "start": 2227.96, "text": "So Bitcoin Smiles, project is a community project of two communities, BTC Pay Server and Bitcoin Design, that, we kickstarted in order to provide free critical dental care for elderly people living in rural areas of El Salvador. So we simply started as a small crew of two To three people, we started, c-c-crowdfunding campaign via BTC based server, you know, raising at least one Bitcoin in order to help fifty people get their critical dental care, and that includes everything like piercings, checkups, everything that, you know, these people never had any access to, to even go to, to a doctor, let alone like get their teeth, fixed. So we call it Bitcoin Smiles because, at the end of the day, it's really just Bitcoin being, bringing smiles to these people. So right now it Five or six contributors from different Bitcoin projects, helping, evolve this, community project to maybe one day in a proper nonprofit. But, so far we, we helped like, I think, fifteen patients got their fully, got fully examined and they're got like full smiles right now, and you can go to bitcoinsmiles dot org and you can see the awesome stories of these people because all these patients really have unique stories. And I just want to give a shout out to Enrique who is He's doing, dental checkups at his clinic, Diente Zonte. They're really hardworking men doing all this work, we, we're just covering the cost of material and he's doing it all, you know, free for them. So awesome to see this project grow. Now we raised, I think, nearly two Bitcoin at this point, which is awesome and it just keeps growing and we're just able to help more and more people. And that's what open source is about, like building projects, helping people, making people smile, being happy about it, and Yeah, you just a good example of how you can even work a non-profit way in an open-source way and just kickstart initiative. It's, this is the freedom that I was like referring to. I was just like sitting one day, I talked to Enrique, about El Salvador, and we were like, okay, what can we do to help? I think that's very important question that we always should ask, like, what can we do to help? And then we just simply started the projects in a few weeks, it was like already, you know, bringing in Bitcoin and we were able" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "39:26", "start": 2366.21, "text": "Everything was built on top of Bitcoin, and we were directly able to found both clinic and patients, and everything was so fast. Like when, once you throw, throw out these legacy things like banking and, paperwork and regulations, it just works perfect. And yeah, we're helping more and more patients, and thanks to all of the companies and all of the people that are supporting us so far." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "39:47", "start": 2387.36, "text": "Yeah, I must jump in here because when I think about Bitcoin smiles, it, I get so excited. We, it's application of everything that we are talking about Here, right? It's, and when I think how many things need to, needed to come together in order for this to happen, I mean, you have my nephew Jack flying to El Salvador and bringing the whole country in focus when it comes to Bitcoin and Bitcoiners, and, then you have- Pavlenex being expired and connected with El Salvador, dentist in El Salvador, and then two of them just started this brainstorming and suddenly there are people getting dentures for free, I mean, and then people all over the world donating their Bitcoin over B- Dcpay server instance open source being used, I mean, it's, it's phenomenal. I don't think we can do it justice here explaining it on this podcast, but yeah, definitely visit bitcoinsmiles dot org and see video because then People jump in and do videos and video editing, then, but one thing I must say to people, like, if you try this similar thing and you don't get the success that this pro- this, project did, I mean, don't get discouraged. There was so much in the background of this project that's not obvious, and I mean, seasoned veteran project manager Pavlenex leading it I mean, it can't fail. So, but again, I would say use this as an inspiration, but don't try to replicate success because, again, there are so many things in background that we can't even get to it here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:25", "start": 2484.92, "text": "Of course, yeah. So that's the other part. So as we were talking about ch- roles changing when you're involved in an open source project, when you're thinking about time to transition, wh- how do you think about what to do when it's time to leave that open source project? W- what does that look like?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "41:41", "start": 2501.14, "text": "Yeah, as I, I will start with Rockstar's quote. He tells me like every meeting, \"Uh, I will retire and watch you guys from the mountain as a good old wise man,\" but maybe I, butchered his quote, so, I think it's a very important question to ask, and we are somewhat at this stage when, when we decide like, is it really-- and I'm also like, again, quoting Rockstar, but once you see that you're taking more than you're giving to an open source project, that is probably a good indicator that you may want to retire on the mountain and get involved in something else, because to me, open source is always about giving, giving, giving, and when taking starts, taking over, it's probably a good idea that you- You should look, in transition to something else. And, it's good that there are so many open source projects, especially in Bitcoin space, that you can get involved in transition to simply find something that you can, you know, my skills maybe are s-- now can be used better on some other projects, so maybe I should focus there and help those people grow and that project go, grow, whereas like on BTC-based server, I'll be fully happy if, you know, any of the core members can be easily replaced. And that none of us are central point of failure for the project. That would be ideal, like having people constantly coming in and going and, you know, helping, project grow while they grow themselves. That's ideal situation. But, yeah, if people are now connecting dots and talking about BTC pay services that Rockstar and Pavlenex are retiring and Nicola, I don't know, we aren't, we're just, you know, thinking philosophically here when it is right time to, you know, say, okay, I've done enough here, maybe there is something better. That I can do, and maybe there are so, so many projects that I can contribute and help to. But I'm sure Rockstar will have way better way of forming all my thoughts, which were random" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "43:34", "start": 2614.41, "text": "philosophical explanations, yeah. I mean, definitely. There are all the different types of retirement, because for me, when I talk about my, solitude temple on top of the hill that people make a trek to, to visit, yeah, that's That's really deep retirement. I mean, and then it's, it's kind of already happened because I created this, channel where I just have a group of people and then I, I sit there and if they have any questions, I, I answer. If, if no one contacts me, I'm just a wise man sitting in silence. But to apply it more to, to not a single point of failure, because I also don't want Nicholas to have a heart attack if he's listening to this podcast and he's like, \"Both Polygonics and Rockstar are retiring from BTC-based server project.\" Like, no, it's, it's about not- Getting stuck, because as, as long as you, you contribute to open source, not just for the project, but you, you contribute for it more, for yourself. You're developing yourself. And if you get to the point where you don't feel you're developing more, but rather, okay, it's now repeated type of contribution, and you don't find as much development in it, then maybe, yeah, it's time to start growing new armor. And part of that Can be within the same open source project or it can be another project. It can be, okay, paid position in a company based on your open source portfolio. So I would more focus on, on That because, this is also something that me and Pavlenex always talk about when you say, okay, not single point of failure, but do you really want to make BTC pay server, without Nicklas? You know, it's, it's kinda good that he is a single point of failure, and I always say BTC pay server will live, live forever because, Nicholas will always run it on his own server, and he's going to keep improving it for all the other people in the world. and I love that, I mean, so if BTC Pay Server, well, like Nicholas fails and BTC Pay Server fails, I mean, it's point for improvement. I mean, it won't because I as a general first, first lieutenant, I will always step in to help Nicholas. So it, it's about that balance. And as I say, for you personally, it's just number one, you don't feel that you're stuck, you, you keep growing the armor, and then number two, not taking more that you- You're giving, because it, it blocks others from contribution. And, for me, the beautiful thing about us cypherpunks as well is you can have separate identities for contributing to separate open source projects. You don't need to be always like Rockstar or Pavlenex. In that sense, as I said, I mean, for me, it's easy to quit projects because I just let identity die, and I have this schedule thing with Rockstar identity dying, and then- And only people that I leave contact with, like, will be able to follow me to new identity. And, I must say, like, for Rockstar identity dying, I just wanna make sure to reserve Laverre. You sing beautifully, so when it's Rockstar's time to die, there is funeral on Twitter, Laverre, I expect you to sing at the funeral. Like, can we get a commitment for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:04", "start": 2823.81, "text": "that? Of course, of course, I'm happy to. Yeah, it's, it's a shame to see, your Rockstar identity is gonna be dying To hear that news, but of course, I can't say no. I will obviously be present or, attending and singing at, the online funeral event. So, wh-when, when are you thinking this is going to be?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "47:25", "start": 2845.07, "text": "Oh, well, I, I have a date, but let's, let's announce it separately because, you know, like Rockstar caught COVID and it couldn't, like, find a place in ICU and- We'll, we'll invent the story, yeah. That's attractive." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:41", "start": 2860.66, "text": "Sure, yeah. And I guess for anyone thinking out there, let's say they're part of an open source project and now thinking, okay, we have some single points of failure, how should they, should they be thinking about that? I mean, obviously the idea is to try to remove that, but what does it take to actually remove single points of failure in our projects?" }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "47:57", "start": 2876.59, "text": "Well, in open source, it's all about meritocracy. Like you earn these virtual merits as you contribute, they can be even GitHub commits, Not everything is, you know, on the GitHub, not every contribution is visible there. But yeah, if, community is based on meritocracy principles, I think it is very easy not to have like single point of failures because people come and go, certain contributors, you know, it's a cycle. People, one year I contribute more, the other I contribute less. the year when my contributions are on low levels, it is very easy for somebody else to have a vote to, you know, take over my tasks and it is It's a natural, a organic process that we managed to implement in BTC Pay Server. Like, we don't question the decisions of people who are core contributors. That's how you become a con-core contributor. You don't become like core contributor if you're famous on Twitter, no, you become contributor to just by con-contributing on a regular basis, and we call those contributors rockstar contributors, and that's how, you know, we have that many people in our team which are doing awesome things. And, yeah, I just want to- Don't want the retirement thing for people to get it wrong, because I think retirement can also be, looked at in a way of role changing, as Rockstar maybe earlier mentioned. So, one person changing, going into more of a mentorship and onboarding people versus coding is also one good example of how one may retire, like it's not always quitting the open source project, it's just shifting your, roles to something that will allow other people to take over certain tasks and you will do something else. That's like a cycle that we've been talking throughout the podcast. Just wanted to make sure that it's not like we are retiring BTC Pay Server, retiring. No, BTC Pay Server is stronger than ever, guys. We are getting back with a new release, so many more features, and you'll be blown away very soon when we launch a newer version." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:53", "start": 2993.49, "text": "Yeah. And, I think actually while we're here, it would be good just to, if you could, just for listeners who are interested, can you give us any updates on what's coming with BTC Pay Server? Pavlenex," }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "50:06", "start": 3005.98, "text": "Manager or the janitor," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:08", "start": 3007.72, "text": "I will," }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "50:08", "start": 3008.42, "text": "talk about it. Like we have, two very big releases coming. First one is, one point four. This is where BTC Pacer UI will completely change. We're, having a different navigation. We've done like so ma-much on the design side of things and, improving the UX. Big shout out to Distraught and Dennis who've been doing amazing job and figuring out how users interact with, BTC Pacer and How we improve it. We did, we've done so many tiny changes that you guys will be blown away by how easy it is now to use BTC Pay Server, and the good thing is that we will constantly improve it so it isn't ever like done. and, zero point five will introduce dashboard and reporting, so there are many surprises, and I think in two weeks probably we will release, I'm not sure when the podcast is going live, but it will be like maybe two weeks from this recording, and we- I just want to invite people to provide feedback to us, because all of our decisions in BTC Pay Server are made because of, people who are using BTC Pay Server and telling us with what they, they are stuck, what do they find problematic, and that feedback and talking to us on our chat is also very important. So, yeah, awesome things coming, BTC Pay Server will be awesome, I promise. So many new features are coming in." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:28", "start": 3088.34, "text": "And Rockstar, anything to add there or anything that you're excited about?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "51:32", "start": 3092.14, "text": "I fully embrace my wise man on the mountain. role, so on that one, I, I would, I would maybe, encourage listeners to go to another link and that's, btpay servers, GitHub repository, we can maybe link it in the transcript of, yeah, this, where, where because it's open source project and it's open organization that Pavlenex really has set up in a great way, you have this project board where you can exactly see what the project is focusing on. Next six months and then like even twelve months, that, that, that can tell how great of a pro-PM, Pavlenex is. But then you can see, okay, this is where I can find my own space, this is where they're growing armor for me, and you can join and contribute. So, encourage people People to, to visit, that link, GitHub, project, repository, a BTC-based server and see it on that project board. But going back to what we were talking about single point of failure, and- BTC based server being stronger than ever. It, it is about, it's because it built that network and, and of teammates and smaller teams within the project that now I would say, you, you've done it in a way that, you know, if something happens to Nicholas, God forbid, but that can't happen. I mean, this is emperor of Bitcoin. There will be people that, that take it forward, like Pavlenex mentioned, Destruct and Dennis. There are now small team that's, that's working and churning out these features, and it's because of them that BTC base server looks better and better with every new release. And I, I would say like this is more something that we should inspire people who already have open source projects to do, to open space for new contributors so that you don't get into situation where project has grew, grew beyond the point where, you know, it's even good for your mental health. Like I think about what happened with, that no js Library like Faker JS, where there was a single contributor, he just couldn't handle all the pressure, so he deleted the repository and then, because it was open source library that was used by all over the world, they even banned him from GitHub. The, the, the guy was asking for help, and, that's part, of open source that it's hard to talk about, that, you know, as I say, everyone is like, \"Oh, I'm going to showcase, I'm gonna build for portfolio and people will appreciate it,\" and they said, \"Like, sometimes no, sometimes people won't appreciate it, doesn't matter how impactful your code is, but that's why you always should keep in back of your mind you're, you are doing this for community, but you're also doing it for yourself And if the signal is, hey, there is no funding, there's-- don't delete your contributions and say, okay, now everyone, give me back my code. It's like, okay, you just need to grow a different way. And, if you're owner of a, owner, I mean- Main contributor of, of open source project, see it as opportunity to grow or maybe, you know, you need to transition to something else. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:46", "start": 3285.85, "text": "Yeah, yeah, I think those are very wise words and, probably a good spot to finish up here. So, hopefully that has given listeners a taste of what it's like in the open source world and maybe working in Bitcoin companies as well a little bit. And so where can listeners find you guys online? And of course, I'll put these links in the show notes." }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "55:07", "start": 3306.81, "text": "So I'm Pavlenex on Twitter, btpayserver dot org, bitcoin design dot o, bitcoin dot design and bitcoinsmiles dot org. And also, if I can recommend one book that will probably help people understand open source and how it is to work in open source, it's called Working in Public: The Making of Open Source Software by Nadia Ekbom, I think, from GitHub. It's an awesome book that also, pinpoints both good things and also bad ones. Rockstar?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "55:38", "start": 3337.63, "text": "you don't need to find me, my tweets will find you. That's how it goes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:42", "start": 3341.87, "text": "Nice. And, keep an eye, keep an eye out for the details around the funeral, I'm sure." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "55:47", "start": 3346.69, "text": "Yeah, plus that, I mean, funeral will find you, especially when my Livera's, angelic voice, I mean, it will, it will just, it will just build up a legend of rockstar developer even further. But yeah, my transition from rockstar developer on Twitter like that's impacting my profile and followers Account, I need to go back to Rockstar developer, people will find me on Google, but now it's Uncle Rockstar, the handle Rockstar dev is still the same with zero, so you can find me there, and then you can find me in upcoming Bitcoin conferences here in US, I'm going to release The calendar, because more and more people DM me like, \"Hey, will you be here? Will you be there?\" So I think Unconfiscatable is the next big conference I'll be, I'll be at, so find me at those places." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:35", "start": 3394.9, "text": "Fantastic. Well, thank you both for joining me today." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "56:37", "start": 3396.86, "text": "Thanks for the invitation and support of us, at BTC Pay Server Le Verre." }, { "speaker": "r0ckstar_dev_pavlenex", "time": "56:42", "start": 3401.71, "text": "Yeah, thanks so much, Stefan. It's been a great journey, and thanks for being with BTC Pay Server all these years." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:48", "start": 3407.73, "text": "Now, it came up in the show, but just a quick reminder, bitcoinerjobs dot com is how job seekers and employers in the Bitcoin world can connect. So the employers have been vetted, they're Bitcoin only, now job seekers, you can go up there, you can find jobs or create a profile, and you can even create a pseudonymous profile. So this is a good one for those of you out there looking for opportunities in the Bitcoin world. That's bitcoinerjobs dot com. And for the show notes on my show, go to stephanelivera dot com. Thanks for listening" } ] }