{ "episodeId": "SLP345", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "danny_brewster": { "name": "Danny Brewster", "role": "guest", "tag": "DANNY" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.49, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast. Fast Show About Bitcoin and Austrian Economics. Today for episode three hundred and forty-five, my guest is Danny Brewster. He's the founder and CEO of Fast Bitcoins, and he joins me to talk about why Bitcoin needs builders. We talk about dealing with regulation as a Bitcoin business, products and services for Bitcoiners, expanding into new markets around the world, and some of the challenges and rewards of being Bitcoin only. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, the easy way to purchase Bitcoin while also learning about Bitcoin. And if you are interested to give the gift of Bitcoin, go to swanbitcoin dot com slash gifts. You can give a gift and that recipient will then be able to sign up with Swan and then convert the US dollar value of what you gifted to them into Bitcoin. And you're not just gifting them Bitcoin, you're also gifting them Swan's world-class customer service and education. So that website, swanbitcoin dot com slash gift. Are you interested in Bitcoin DeFi? Lend at HodlHodl is a peer-to-peer Bitcoin-backed Lending platform where you can lend or borrow stablecoins globally and anonymously. So if you need some liquidity, you can sign up in just thirty seconds and borrow stablecoins without any verification. You deal directly with other people and the interest is all paid at the end. On the other hand, if you have some stablecoins and you are looking to earn some extra on those, you can lend them out at the highest returns, issuing out overcollateralized loans with the full interest guaranteed. Lend at HodlHodl, lend and borrow stablecoins on your terms. Terms at your desired interest rates. There are no hidden fees, and the users control the keys in the deal in escrow. Go and check it out, lend dot hodl hodl dot com. Brains are a Bitcoin mining company, and they are producing Brains OS Plus. This is a firmware you can install on your ASIC to use the auto-tuning feature that optimizes your performance. You're getting more hash rate for your electricity bill, and they also operate Slush Pool, the first Bitcoin mining pool, and Jack Dorsey just recently announced that That he is using Slushpool to mine his Sats. Now, if you use BrainzOS Plus, the firmware, and you point your hash rate towards Slushpool, you actually get the benefit of a zero percent pool fee rate. So that's also a great benefit there for you. And the Brainz team are hiring, so if you're interested, they're looking for developers, system programmers, hardware architects, and more. So go and check out the careers page on their website. That site is brains dot com, brains with two i's. And now on to the show with Danny. Danny," }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "02:41", "start": 160.89, "text": "welcome to the show. Thank you, it's been a long time coming. Yeah, yeah, it has. Been a long time, long time listener and Patreon." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:49", "start": 169.15, "text": "Yes, that's right. So thank you for your support, Danny, and yeah, I know, you've got a lot of things on, you've been in and around the, Bitcoin world for a while now, so, do you wanna just give a bit of a background for yourself for any listeners who don't know you?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "03:03", "start": 182.76, "text": "So I've been in Bitcoin far too long, and I discovered Bitcoin end" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "03:11", "start": 190.77, "text": "Much, much lower. Should have bought far more. I lived in Cyprus during the, the bailouts. I had a, a crazy, stupid idea that was far too early, to, to give the local Cypriots, an option to be able to use, Bitcoin in their daily lives. it exploded in a great ball of, fire that the media ran with lots of incorrect narratives, but ultimately it was my fault through a whole bunch and series of- mistakes, but a lot of the ideas that I had have eventually played out in the, the market, and we have multi-signature wallets, and people have point-of-sale devices where they can now spend Bitcoin, in stores. Obviously, everything with Lightning has been an amazing development, and I am being like Bitcoin only since I sold the last of the Litecoin that I mined in the peak of twenty thirteen, I think, and since that point in time, I've been purely Bitcoin only. I think it's- He's the only one that, that we have any chance with changing the world with really, and, just continued to, to build whilst I was sorting out the mess from Cyprus and built what, eventually became, Fast Bitcoins, and, ultimately as everything got cleared up, it's gone from strength to strength and wipers changed a lot over the years, Bitcoins changed tremendously, a lot of the mistakes have been rehashed over and over, the same frustrations remain, there's still a whole bunch of misinformation out there that gets parodied every day, but ultimately just keep trying to build and, and bring more people into Bitcoin. I think that's the only way that we can achieve critical mass, and that, that's just trying to be a builder and to get more people into using Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:57", "start": 297.38, "text": "Sure. And so with Fast Bitcoins, do you wanna just give us a bit of an overview? How long has the business been around now, and what are the main products and services, Fast Bitcoins offers now?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "05:07", "start": 307.15, "text": "Okay, so to start with, I looked at the Bitcoin ATM business model for cash to Bitcoin transactions, and just watching people pay twenty-five, thirty percent was infuriating. So initially started off before the fifth money laundering directive was a thing, so we could do small transactions with little to no KYC and things like that for cash. And then COVID came along, we, at this point, we launched in, it was officially November or December twenty eighteen, we had Lightning deliveries enabled. We was the first, to offer Lightning deliveries as well. So from the outset, we had that, that platform available, and we've watched other people make that possible now, which is, great to see. And then when COVID hit We had this, chain of like retail locations around the world in, in the UK, in some countries in Europe, in Canada, where people could go into store, and use cash to, to buy Bitcoin through us. But then unfortunately, when I was planning the business, I didn't foresee the whole world going crazy and all of the retail locations closing down and things. and then also around the same time, we had some challenges with the, the Fifth Money Laundering Directive from the European Union, so we had to introduce customer ac- accounts and we had to start doing KYC, and things like that, which as frustrating as it is, as a business, we've tried to always maintain that we'll have a, a lightest touch as possible. We don't do like massive volumes of transactions per customer, so we don't, not with fast bitcoins anyway, like huge transactions, and we, I've added additional payment mechanisms so people can pay like by bank transfer in Australia, can pay by Interac e-transfer in Canada, we've launched- recently in Brazil, where people can pay using PIX or the Boleto system, we also have, about fifty thousand locations where people in Brazil can take, cash into the lottericas stands, and buy, or deposit to their fast bitcoins account through these, lottery stores. And we've now taken, the model of, we're going to try and make it just possible to, to onboard more and more bitcoiners in a, platform that doesn't Promote shitcoinery, that doesn't promote gambling, we wanna help people use Bitcoin more as a savings technology or as a vehicle, for you onto Lightning to, to actually use Bitcoin in their day-to-day life. we've got a whole bunch of plans that, the future will just enable us to, amalgamate and create more, even more of a bridge between the old and the new. So that's where we're heading. So we just wanna make Bitcoin accessible, so we will We, we have a bit of a, a tagline, internally, because we don't like HSBC for the amount of shit talk they do about Bitcoin, and one of their, one of their marketing lines is, the world's local bank, so we wanna create the world's local Bitcoin company to make them irrelevant." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:11", "start": 490.83, "text": "Right, so it's a range of services there. So I think, as you were saying, starting out in the early days, it was around vouchers, and ATMs, but now it's more, you know, there, there is an online Systems there for people and, you mentioned as well around five AMLD or Fifth AMLD, so for listeners who aren't familiar, that's like the, a big regulation that came in the EU and unfortunately caused a lot of problems for a lot of Bitcoin companies. So do you wanna just outline a little bit about the challenges there and what the scene was like pre-five AMLD and now what it's like in the five AMLD era?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "08:49", "start": 529.4, "text": "Yeah, so before the, the Fifth Money Laundering Directive came into effect in some countries in some jurisdictions where they didn't have local registrations or local guidance, you could do, transactions under like local laws or below a certain threshold without having to, to obtain your, your customer's information and verify that information or, or take much of a detailed in-depth, view as to who your, your customers are. You didn't have to treat everybody like a criminal or, or anything like that or assume that every single customer, because they was buying Bitcoin, they was trying to fund Some terrorist organization, somewhere. and then when the Fifth Money Laundering Directive came into effect, basically what they said was each of the, the countries have to enact their own registration requirements for companies or people that are undertaking commercial activity offering the, the exchange, like VASP is the term they use, the virtual asset service provider. So if you're commercially offering an exchange, you have to be registered, and the, the UK Kind of took that guidance and went overkill, in my opinion. So basically, and we're also seeing this in Australia now for new registrants, Chainalysis, the company, have run around and sat underneath the, put their feet under the table with all of the regulators, so the regulators want like your company's hot and cold wallet IDs. They've done it with payment processors as well. So if you're trying to engage with, new payment processors to create competition to drive down your fees and things for, for, for, for your customers, the language is always the same of what they're requesting. We as a company openly, with the, the Australian, Bitcoin industry association body, with Ethan from Bitterroot and a whole bunch of other Bitcoin-only operators in Australia, we're pushing back against it, because it's just a, a massive overreach that's practically impossible to actually implement, because as we know, we can create wallet addresses like At Infom, so it, it's bonkers and it's, it's like a massive overreach, and they've taken this guidance, and each of the, the countries that did it, have taken their, their own approach, so some are much better than others, and then some have gotten into bed with private actors like Chainalysis and stuff, so it's been a bit of a head, headache trying to navigate it all whilst also being able to continue providing a real good level of service to the customer, and I think we're, we're finding a balance of trying Where we don't have to be without it actually impacting the customer, and giving them the, the smoothest way of getting involved, in Bitcoin. That's all we can do. it's either that or we can create maybe ten Bitcoin a month doing it personally, which isn't gonna help us reach the, the goals that we wanna see in the world when it comes to Bitcoin. We need billions of people using Bitcoin, in my opinion. Others may disagree, I'm sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:51", "start": 711.38, "text": "Of course, yeah. And I think it's really interesting that you were pointing out the- efforts there around at least trying to push back on government overregulation, as my friend Matt O'Dell is, often saying that Bitcoin companies are maybe more like the big crypto companies of the, you know, that's inverted commas, crypto, that is, that they should be fighting back against the government. Now, that is a difficult thing because obviously I, you know, I'm, I'm a libertarian, I'm anti-government regulation, I just also think it's extremely difficult to do that when the government is basically holding that regulatory sword of- Samakle is over your head that if you don't comply, that, and, and so that's a real challenge because what happens then is some of these chain analysis and the like, other surveillance companies like CipherTrace and so on, that they are basically running around and trying to tell the regulators that this is the way Bitcoin is and this is what should be done, but really it's their own business model, which, is quite frustrating. They're, they're" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "12:48", "start": 767.77, "text": "literally trying to hoover up all of the data because it's the only way they can have like, an inform To be able to sell to other regulators and other providers, and if you don't use, if you're not a client of theirs, then they don't have your wallet information, they can, it's a best guess that that's your, that, that's your set of wallets, or they, they can take a guess. But if you're a client of theirs, you have to provide them information, which helps improve their product, but what they're doing is they're just going, \"Screw, actually doing the business side, let's just go straight into the government and get them to For us, which is extremely frustrating, but we, we are a hundred percent pushing back. I even moved out of the UK to this little rock in the middle of the Irish Sea. I, I, if I disagree with the government's decision, I can literally walk across the street, knock on the door, and tell them how wrong they are, and you can have a conversation about it. So it's a, a com- completely different business environment, and I think Bitcoin, probably only Bitcoin, that gives you that freedom and that mobility to be able to migrate to where you're gonna Get treated best, I think you, you've done it yourself, trying to, escaping Australia when they was going insane with the, the, the power-hungry structures during the, the COVID lockdowns and stuff, if it probably wasn't for Bitcoin, you had a, a, a fiat-based job that was stuck in a city, or if you're stuck in London and you don't have that freedom, building on Bitcoin's enabled me to come over here. The government here have been more than welcoming, they wanna help create jobs locally, they're all for Bitcoin com- Here, they have opened the door to some shit corners, but we're working on that. We are actively orange pulling the, the government and making it hostile for, for the, the shitcoin casinos. But yeah, it's much better, and Bitcoin's given us this freedom to be able to, to move and build elsewhere while still accessing those same markets, which is magnificent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:46", "start": 886.43, "text": "Yeah, it's interesting you say that, because I think that's actually part of this whole global jurisdictional competition aspect, because as we're seeing, there are some up-and-coming countries that really want to create opportunities, and on the other hand, you've got these other nations that are perhaps a little sort of starting to stagnate a little bit. And so that's an interesting game, I guess, in some sense, that people can try to look for better opportunities in other countries, as, as you are doing and as many Bitcoin people are doing. But, I suppose at the same-- at the end of the day, though, you're still trying to serve customers all around the world, so that's an interesting, balance that you're trying to meet because there might be customers, well, there are many customers all around the world who are in some of those countries that are very authoritarian or in other ways, you know, not ideal for them, but maybe if you could just share a little bit about some of the- Markets that you're operating in and what it's been like just expanding out into new markets around the world." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "15:42", "start": 941.6, "text": "So when, when I set out, I, I didn't wanna create, a company that was just based in, in one jurisdiction where we could get rug pulled by the local government or the banking partners or anything like that. So from the, from the outset, it's been, let's create this wide footprint so we can become somewhat, dare I say, anti-fragile. so basically It's also now that the, the regulatory environment is changing and shifting around the world, we actually find it much more conducive to a better relationship with the regulators because we don't offer any, sorry for the language, any bullshit shitcoins, we're not looking to create a casino where, where, we're not wanting people to, to, to come and trade with leverage and, like degenerate gambling or anything like that. We, we speak to regulators all over the world, we've got FinCEN registration now for the US, but I'm not actually overly concerned with running with that too much just yet because, we're in Brazil and the initial conversations that we've had in Brazil with our customers that have signed up from there, it's just a population that get it so much more than what our customers in, say, the UK that have lived throughout their entire lives with a stable financial system. They've got instant bank settlements between banks. The, there's no charges for using another bank's ATM machine to get cash out. They have contactless payments in the, the stores and things. And inflation, although now is becoming an issue in Brazil, it's already the headline numbers are, are far higher than what they are across, say, the US or the UK or the Eurozone, as much as I don't trust the numbers coming out of the governments, I also the, the, the numbers in Brazil are probably far higher than what The government's coming out with there. So, but as a population, they just get it. They are concerned around privacy and what information can be shared with the, the government and stuff like that. So, we as a company are pretty adamant. I can sit here and say it, and people will say, \"Oh, you won't say that until the police come knocking on your door\" or all the things. But I sit on this rock in the middle of the Irish Sea, so the Brazilian government have a long way to come and visit me for, for things like that. But then even, even Within the, the framework of their laws, so we have limits and things in place, so we don't have mandatory reporting. If they change those limits, we'll probably change them. Or if we ever have mandatory reporting to any government of any, like every transaction or anything like that, I'd rather not be in that market because it's not something that I'd ever endorse. I'd rather take the business out of the, the market than sell my soul for, for revenue, even though, as a Bitcoin only company, again, conducive to, to a better relationship. And they, they listen To us, because we do deal with like Austrac in Australia, we've dealt with the FSA here on the island, we've previously dealt with the FCA in London, Fintrack in Canada, Finset and everybody. So having those conversations, and being able to do it with a worldly view is actually kind of eye-opening, and I can tell you now, there's more and more people in these departments becoming orange-pilled, and they see the, the crap that comes through the door from shitcoiners, and that's what makes them like so defensive, but when you And you have a level conversation with them, and honest about the, the good parts about Bitcoin, the bad parts, because believe it or not, there are some bad part-- bad parts about Bitcoin. it's not perfect. Twitter's probably gonna kill me again, for saying that, but, but yeah, it's, Just having conversations like with anything, it's all about communication. And if you, you run into a regulator saying, \"This is gonna replace every central bank, and it's gonna happen overnight, and the financial world's gonna collapse,\" I, I don't wanna live in that world because that world is hell. If, if we get to that state suddenly overnight, I'd much rather take a, a slowly, slowly approach to, to replacing them or replacing the, the people in these institutions with well orange-pilled, educated people." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:52", "start": 1192.06, "text": "Right. And so- I'm curious as well, what's your take then on, are there places in the world that you see as being better for, like from a Bitcoin point of view or maybe the regulators are taking more of a light touch versus the heavy touch?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "20:06", "start": 1206.34, "text": "Just point to El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "20:10", "start": 1209.89, "text": "So here, like it's a small island, like so smaller places with smaller populations, this could-- this is like a double-edged sword. in Cyprus it was really good to start with, and then it got used against me, and this includes like marketing, the media, the, the government, the regulations, people's access to police departments, and the, the corruptibility of local, people. But So, so when it's working for you, it's amazing, but it can also be flipped and used against you, and you can be targeted and, it's amazing what Reuters will syndicate from some small press in a foreign language, To, to label you as one of the worst people in the world, but so ignoring my bitterness from the past, having, being able to move to these smaller locations and jurisdictions where you can have these conversations, where people are much more accessible. I, I would say it's definitely those types of, jurisdictions or the places where the, the president is buying the debt on his mobile, whilst meeting other government leaders and stuff, it's, yeah, it's, to think this is where we are in the whole cycle of things, I'm still waiting for El Salvador to get a big dose of freedom from the US, courtesy of the IMF, but, yeah, we'll see how that plays out. So, yeah, smaller jurisdictions where they've got the flexibility to be able to, to just have the conversations with the people that make the, the power and make the rules, that control the- The biggest gang on the island, which is obviously the police, they have the more guns and stuff like that. So yeah, the places where you can have the dialogue, I would say." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:58", "start": 1317.63, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Are you interested in getting started with Bitcoin mining? CompuMining can help here. With CompuMining dot io, you can go and select your hardware machines. They've got all sorts of different ASICs featured, and they've also got some ASICs that you can order for home mining for those of you in the US, and they also have some ASICs that are available as reseller devices. And so you can have these machines sent to a facility and have them plugged in and turned on. You pay the hosting, and you select the mining pool to play. point your hash rate towards, and then you are receiving sats. Also, CompuMining are putting out a range of content, whether that's their newsletter, their podcast material, you can use this material to educate yourself about Bitcoin mining. That website is CompuMining dot io. Are you worried about single points of failure in your Bitcoin security setup? Unchained Capital can help you with collaborative custody. Now, with the collaborative custody setup, you hold two hardware wallets in different locations, and Unchained can hold the third key for you. Now, if you're a little bit confused and you're not sure how to do this, they offer a concierge program, and this is very popular. It's an easy way to improve your security and take away those single points of failure. So, with this program, you can order some hardware wallets to your home, you can have a video call to teach you how to do this, even if you've never held your private keys before, and you'll have some Bitcoin deposited in your vault. So, this is an easy way to get started. Go to Unchained dot com, select the concierge Use the code LIVERA for a discount. If you're looking for Bitcoin hardware security, check out the Coldcard over at coinkite dot com. Now, I recently spoke again with NVK and we spoke about the updates coming with the Mark IV. So this one will have NFC, faster processor, more RAM, and all sorts of features to check out. Now, the Coldcard supports multi-signature as well, so you can use it either in single signature or multi-signature and have it as part of your overall setup. With the Coldcard, you can You can use it airgapped as well, so you can get a micro SD card and use that to shuttle the transaction or xPub information back and forth. So that website is coinkite dot com and use the code livera for a discount on your coldcard. Back to the show with Danny. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And now, the way I see it and hear it and understand it as well, is that sometimes there are supragovernmental or supranational organizations, such as FATF, Financial Action Task Force, where they try to leverage pressure against other countries and say, \"Hey, if you're not doing quote-unquote enough against AML, you're-- we're gonna blacklist you and we're gonna make you look like a tax haven and blah, blah, blah, and that's really bad for you, your little country. You better, you better obey dictates, dictates. so I guess that's, that's like the counter argument there. But I think the point you're making though is, I think that is broadly right, at least from what I understand, is that the smaller, perhaps some of the smaller nations tend to be a bit more nimble and a little bit more able to turn a little faster, whereas obviously the big Western nations are like trying to turn this big, big cruise liner ship. So that's, that's at least how I'm seeing it." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "25:08", "start": 1507.93, "text": "In, in the UK, I know the, the FCA Applications, the applications that should have taken like six months, that have now taken two years, and they've got temporary lists and approvals and things. So yeah, it's a bit of a shit show from them. and as you say, with, with like FATF and stuff, here's labeled, a low tax jurisdiction. It's a British Crown Dependency, there's a zero corporation tax, zero, zero capital gains tax, which is a big one for Bitcoiners, but the government here can't create debt, so they have to live within their means and, My, my message and pushback from the, and from the government is, \"Sorry, you're-- if you consider we're a low tax jurisdiction, we live within our means, but sorry your government can't live within theirs and they spend recklessly, that's not our fault. What are we gonna do? How, where, where should we spend this excess revenue if you want us to tax people more? People here are happy, we...\" We, we have every, every cow on this island is grass fed, our milk tastes better, our meat tastes better, the, the air is fresh. What, what more do you want us to do? Like just take money off people because you wanna spend more? We should tax our people higher, Yeah, it's, it's, it's insane. So, and then, but I, I see your point with the, the gray list, 'cause they did it to Malta. We was looking for like a, a European subsidiary, because there's some more legislation coming in into Europe called MiCA. So we, we've gone with Ireland for structural purposes, plus it's also twenty minutes over the water to us. But Malta was, we, we was looking at Malta as well, but because all of the counten friendly money left Cyprus before the bail-ins and moved to Malta, so Accounting capital of Europe, and now they've been added to this grey list or whatever it is for the time being, which would have just caused headaches trying to do business in other parts of the world for us, because like you say, they, they have this stick they can use to, to beat the, the jurisdictions like that. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:12", "start": 1632.28, "text": "yeah, but I mean, nevertheless, I think I still believe getting more people invested in Bitcoin in general is going to help overall, and I understand that there are people in the Bitcoin broader world who don't necessarily share that view. That they think it's going to remain. I guess maybe the way they would frame it is more like, you know, you have to go no KYC because they're gonna come for everyone anyway eventually. But I think there are different approaches to that. I think there might be some who think that longer term, if Bitcoin becomes legal tender, well then some of those concerns will wash away over time. So, I mean, it obviously depends what the focus is. I mean, those who are more focused on privacy versus, you know, those who are more about the wealth creation or savings aspect of it But I want to go back to what you were saying just around inflation and the understanding around it, because you were saying, as you're, as you're saying with Brazil, that, people understand inflation a lot more intuitively than, let's say, in some of the Western world nations. So one thing I've seen or heard of is that a lot of people end up, even in the Western world, go, going in gambling, right? They're gambling on random meme coins or meme stocks or things like that. So, JPEGs. Yeah, JPEGs is the latest one, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:24", "start": 1704.18, "text": "That there, in terms of, you know, trying to get the message out and the education out there as well on the Bitcoin side." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "28:31", "start": 1711.03, "text": "It's difficult because most people are being educated through sales material, and that sales material is geared towards pushing them into- Speculating, and when all, all of the, the noise, around the whole industry is, is about that, it's purely educational, and like, you've also been through this with like Ministry of Nodes and trying to create an educational platform, and we've done, and we're going to be doing some work with the, the Ministry of Nodes in Australia, really looking forward to that, to be able to, to try and actually speak to people, and through, through our- For the time, we're literally gonna have to market in an educational fashion, so we'll be doing exactly the same thing, but we're just gonna make sure that our message is, as pure as can be. There is always this, the purism product trade-off. Ultimately, we, we are a business, and we think that we're doing things the right way, I'm pretty sure that people will disagree, as they always do, especially on Twitter. So yeah, all, all we can do is just try and remain pure to what we think is right, and so Message that we've been putting out from the very beginning is we do what we have to do, we do, as much as we have to do, we won't step over that, but I'm not going to go to jail for anybody, and I wanna also help create as many Bitcoiners as we can, like educated Bitcoiners that understand why Bitcoin exists and if people wanna use it for privacy reasons or to, to move themselves and their family across borders, things like that. Still have the, the philosophy that everybody Is open to using Bitcoin, even your worst enemies, so you just have to accept that, even if you're the most privacy focused person in the world and, or you just wanna see the number go up and you're using it, as investment, you have to be accepting that both of these entities will be able to use Bitcoin, i-including the, the people that you hate the most on the planet. So I'm a little bit on the fence with it or don't have the time. I just wanna create more, give more people access to something that's useful period these days." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:44", "start": 1843.73, "text": "Yeah, and, so with the different products out there, I know as you mentioned with the POS terminal, can you tell us a little bit about that and, whether, you know, how, how you're seeing that going in, you know, some of those countries like Brazil, as you mentioned." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "30:57", "start": 1857.31, "text": "So we haven't actually put our own hardware into Brazil, but the, the one time, the, the biggest humbling moment for me was watching a guy that created a random video in a store in Vancouver buying a protein bar and some chocolate using Lightning, a couple of years ago, just randomly, getting tagged in that, in that video, it was just insane. It was like I built that in my loft whilst I was fighting extradition, and, and then things like BTC Pay Server, came along when, Nicholas Dorey obviously got fed up with, BitPay, which is amazing, and just even, here on the island, there's a, there's Coin Corner, which is literally in the office next door, people might say, \"Oh, you Competitor, I don't think anybody with the same philosophy anywhere in the world, be that Swan, River, Amber, Bitterroot, anybody that is saying the, the same messages about being Bitcoin only, trying to educate people, I think we're all trying to grow the market of educated Bitcoiners as opposed to competing for the same business, so I cheerlead them all, and I tell them like Corey, everybody, that I love what they're doing. And We're bor-- like we, I, I literally look and go, \"This is what they do great. How can we do that, and incorporate those things?\" Swan's the amazing content marketing that they've done in the, the harsh environment of the regulations around marketing and stuff. So hat tip to everybody. But on the island, like Coin Corner, I've got loads of stores where you can go and pay at the point of sale using Lightning, and probably the most prolific shopper on the island using Sats, like literally my haircut Yesterday, and then my, my lunch the day before, using, using Lightning and being here and seeing people do it all over the world, Bitcoin for payments is still very, very early, so we're not really focusing it as a business, it's more of a, I literally built the ability to pay with Lightning in twenty eighteen as a weekend thing, oh, this would be cool if we did this on the devices as well. I had the ideas in Cyprus back in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, but it was- It's far too early really, and it's still probably for me a bit early for payments on Bitcoin. We haven't got enough users of Bitcoin, if you will, in the world just yet. But stage one of our vision is to, to create that mass of Bitcoiners so we can start using it, more for payments and stuff. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:32", "start": 2011.62, "text": "and I think the other aspect that makes it, that can be difficult operating in so many different countries is all the, like dealing with the fiat side of it. Obviously, like the Bitcoin side is the Easy side, but having to have fiat banks and, as I'm sure you're aware, and some listeners might be aware, is that a lot-- there are a lot of bank shutdowns for Bitcoin companies, so they often get their accounts shut down. I know of colleagues all over the industry who have dealt with this. what has that been like for you with, with trying to operate across different countries and still trying to keep the fiat rails working? 'Cause obviously you're an ex-- you wanna be able to sell Bitcoin to people, they need to be able to get the fiat into you" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "34:11", "start": 2051.02, "text": "2013, we used to get emails from the banks, like with everybody cc'd, cc'd into the same emails, be that us, Bitcoin Swizz, there was like BTC, Mount Gox was like still around at the end, like everybody that was running, like, or trying to speak to banks at that time to get bank accounts, where, it was literally copied into the same rejection email, it was laughable. It's like data protection, isn't that thing? it just doesn't really count if you're A Bitcoin, service provider or anything you're trying to do anything, around Bitcoin because like BitInstant was on that email, well, it was Charlie Shrem's company, there was a whole bunch of like early, like Bitstamp and stuff like that, and it was like, no, we can't deal with you. And then things have changed, it's still ridiculously difficult, especially if you're an individual and you've, you're acting like as a sole trader and things, or just an independent trader, if you're doing like large payment volumes through your- accounts and stuff, they're, they're all over it, and as soon as you mention Bitcoin, they jump on it, and they close you down and like the, the, the freedom to do business with whoever you want should be a thing, but they, they have this like moat that is protected. So there's been some pushback in Australia around, deplatforming and stuff, but we've, again, because of our footprint a-around the world, we get to have these conversations, and we've been talking to banks about- About integrating, like providing them the infrastructure to offer their customers their, access to Bitcoin through our infrastructure that we've built. But, and just speaking to the compliance departments, and they're so anti-Bitcoin because the sad fact is, like ninety-five percent of payment fraud issues that they have touches crypto at some point along the chain, because it's, it's the best way for the, the fraudster to get exit, because it's irreversible, and it's much easier than getting cash out of an ATM, to- Get irreversible funds. So I, I see why they have so many issues with Bitcoin as a whole, because when your day job is literally just dealing with this shit, and it is the, the bad end of the, the stick, and they're dealing with people that have been ripped off or scammed or coerced into like sending somebody Bitcoin or some other garbage coin as a means of separating them fraudulently from their, their cash, then, yeah, those people And these are the ones that are making the decisions to close people's accounts. So I get it as to, to why they would feel that way. But being able to have those conversations, again, just communication with the right people, enables you to build and maintain a relationship and, like we, we do a whole bunch of safeguarding with our customers to make sure they're not being coerced into buying Bitcoin to send it to some guy that tells them that they're mining diamonds in Zimbabwe. They've never met this person, but they think- I think they're engaged and you'd be absolutely astounded to, to hear some of the stories. And if we can stop those from happening, just by, again, like communication, talking with customers as they're, they're using us for the first time, then, I, I think that's a positive thing. And we communicate this with the banks and the financial service providers and the payment platforms, they get it. But it's, again, it's all just about communication." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:37", "start": 2256.56, "text": "Yeah. And I think the other angle with that, as you say, with communication Is that as things scale, as a lot of people come, and so the Bitcoin industry, as, as you are very well aware, is this very-- it's not just like a linear sort of thing, it's like very-- there'll be moments where it just comes like a massive wave, and then it's doldrums for a little while. I guess that's something you would have seen in your Bitcoin career, haven't you?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "38:02", "start": 2282.0, "text": "Yeah, and e-every, every, every time we go through these insane cycles where we get this mass influx of people, I get pretty tired pretty quick. There was a conversation yesterday, I think it's Bitcoin Magazine that hosted it between Alex Vetsky and who's the, the fool that thinks, Bitcoin's gonna have, have to change to, oh, Bidboy Crypto. Oh, yeah. what a clown. These people have platforms and people listen to them, and they, they sit there talking- Talking about all of the people they've helped make money, everybody's a genius in the bull market when money's being created like it is being, across every asset class, Fails to mention that on the, the back end of every trade, there's two parties. So if one person's winning, the other person's losing in that trade ultimately. So somebody's either selling too early or someone's buying too late. So they, they can Talk about how much money they're cre- like creating for their followers and stuff, but these people disappear the minute everything goes to shit, and we go through the winters, that's when all the best conversations have, that's when Bitcoin seems to move forward the most, where the most innovation seems to occur, we hash out the problems amongst ourselves, the people that actually have been around and understanding, and don't get me wrong, there's people that could discover Bitcoin today that would know far more than me in three months' time and just get it even better. There's, there's just so much To, to know and understand it, they, they very much surpass what I know and what I've, but I, I've been through the, the cycles, and I've seen the people come and go, and it's the same salespeople and marketing departments that, that are just like wishy-washy, they're only here when the times are great, and I always use, there's a guy that always does courses, quite, like the influencer type, isn't it? But when he comes around, I know we're, Advertised on, Altucher on YouTube all the time. James" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:01", "start": 2401.05, "text": "Altucher and Ty Lopez, when those guys show up." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "40:04", "start": 2404.1, "text": "Ty Lopez, Ty Lopez, when they're around and when they're mentioning Bitcoin or whatever, it's like, \"Yeah, we've hit peak. Soon it'll be the winter again. Can't wait so we can get back on with some business, and actually start, like, continue building the, the, the good stuff instead of having to, to field, a hundred calls a day from people that you went to school with, like, asking you Buy this or you should sell that. It's, you, you can just get on with actually building cool stuff." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:34", "start": 2434.2, "text": "Yeah. And so then one thing that I've noticed even for me personally, and I guess for me, that's 'cause I'm a content creator, so I can just point people to this episode when I get the question and be like, \"Hey, this episode,\" or \"Hey, that, read this article,\" and things like that. So I guess that's a similar thing, but I mean, just generally, even when you're trying to scale a business, Kind of have systems and, but I guess the challenge for you is around finding that right balance of building and automating things versus how what things are just done person to person because, you know, we're not at that point yet. so, a-and sort of bringing that back then to the Bitcoin ethos and building usable products and services. What does it look like for you guys when you're thinking about products, services that you wanna offer? How do you, do you like workshop them? Do you sort of play around and then see wh-what's the feedback from the market?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "41:28", "start": 2488.01, "text": "If, if it's me that comes up with an idea, it's probably at stupid o'clock in the morning, before eve- before most other people are awake, I'm either like in the gym, on the treadmill, listening to a podcast, thinking, \"Oh, this is a- How could we use this for...\" I, I try, I listen to" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "41:48", "start": 2507.76, "text": "outside of the, the echo chamber, I find, I think you definitely have the most educational because you can, you got the technical side down far more than what you'd probably even give yourself credit for, but you've got obviously the economic background and things like that, and plus you're now traveled and experienced in the market. I remember when you first went full time with the podcast, and I was like, \"Yes, we've got some great content here.\" But I- It's enough smoke up your backside. The, so yeah, just listening to content outside, like other business leaders, things like that, to, to try and just gauge what other businesses are doing, what they're working on, how that would impact us, anything we can take from them, and how it- How we can apply that. Just listen to, the innovation stack from the guy that co-founded Square with Jack. Listening to that was great. Like, there's no experts in innovation, so it's, just trying to pull ideas from, from other places, and things like that to, to see how we can apply those lessons to what we're building, and then I will pitch any of my ideas to the team, the team do the same back to, to me and everybody else, and we, we just hash them out and then if we can build Like a, a prototype, we'll do that, we'll work on that and see, and then we'll, test it in the market when we can, like, or into the different markets where we can get it signed off, and we're happy that it's not gonna cause us too many problems or anything like that. Just like the, my most fun project was probably Heartbeat, which allows customers to dollar cost average on every new block, so they're literally buying on the heartbeat of Bitcoin, a, a tiny piece of, demand for the, the new blocks that are created, and but that's definitely like a hardcore Maxi type focus product, but just good, good things like that, and it also educates new customers into like what is heartbeat, and what is the heartbeat of Bitcoin, and for me, it's, then every new block that's created, it means Bitcoin's still alive, and we're, we're moving forward." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:50", "start": 2629.98, "text": "I'm curious as well, your thoughts on where stablecoins are going, because one thing that I've noticed, at least from my travels as well, even in South America Central America, it seems that there is a bit of a demand for them, even though those of us from the Western world think, \"Ah, what's the point? I'm, I'm just hodling Bitcoin.\" But it, it does sort of come across the radar a little bit when you're talking to people from those parts of the world, where there seems to be a very strong demand for it, and I guess the question then is, do you see a role for that as part of Bitcoin companies? Should Bitcoin companies interface with stablecoins, or should they just stick to not even touching stablecoins?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "44:29", "start": 2668.7, "text": "Recently had a bit of flack for this. I would say that their, their sales pitch, if that's what you wanna call it, or their pitch to the world is Bitcoin, but it's actually stable coins behind it, and they use Bitcoin for the transfer mechanism. Just looking at what they're-- the way they position it, you wouldn't think that from the outset. So I can see why people are pushing back on that, especially when it-- these people that want pureism versus product, and they're more on the pureism side. As for other Bitcoin companies, I think stable coins Probably solve a problem for some companies, companies that don't have local banking infrastructure that can fall back on like Tether or any of the other places, but I think they all require like a level of education for the customer to understand that, yes, this digital representation of the dollar is held here, not here. These are the risks because you are introducing, additional risks, and Bitcoin carries risks as well, but the, the customer needs, I think As long as the customer knows what they've got and where they actually stand with it, I think, yeah, there's, there's probably gonna be space, both will exist whilst the, arguably the dollar is a little bit more day to day stable against the, against Bitcoin, but ultimately that's what it is, even though it's, it's slowly dying." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:49", "start": 2749.46, "text": "Yeah. And it could also just be the legal privilege aspects of it, right? There's no capital gains when you spend, fiat money." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "45:56", "start": 2755.86, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:56", "start": 2756.3, "text": "You know, it's, it's" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "45:57", "start": 2757.14, "text": "a very difficult problem with an imp Perfect solution, so maybe there's somebody much smarter than me out there that will come out with a, a solution to that problem, but, I look forward to that day, and I'll probably use it, and I, I would say to other people, yeah, you should probably use this as a, as a product, but just like everything in life, there's trade-offs, just try and be as informed about them as possible, and then, yeah, I, even with that statement, I think it's most people don't care in their life, they just use whatever Privacy inflation until it's too late or, yeah, they, they just go with whatever's easy or whatever the crowd's doing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:37", "start": 2797.13, "text": "Yeah, and I think that comes to the con-conversation as well around is the goal, and I guess this maybe people have their own views on this about mass adoption. Is, is mass adoption the goal or is there, there's some segment of the Bitcoin world who's out there saying, no, the focus should be the remnant. So I'm wondering where you stand on that kind of idea, like should the- Focus be the mass adoption or should the focus be the remnant or, is there something else?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "47:03", "start": 2823.19, "text": "I think I probably stand in a very different position to, like, Alex Svetsky on this. I'm pretty sure that's where the, the remnant" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:11", "start": 2830.79, "text": "idea- Oh, it was around well before, but, I think, you know, Svetsky was recently writing about it and speaking about it. Oh," }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "47:17", "start": 2836.9, "text": "yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:17", "start": 2837.42, "text": "yeah, he's run with it." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "47:19", "start": 2838.64, "text": "I, I think Bitcoin has- Has the potential to make the world a better place, but to do that, I think we need, as many people exposed to the ideas, as possible, and also educated to actually understand. I think Bitcoin needs it to be able to carry on into the future, in the next couple of generations, to understand why there's a hard limit on the issuance, and not people that have just existed in a world where that's just the thing, and then they don't take it seriously anymore. I think there's a multi-generational, approach to, to the- The whole Bitcoin position in the world, I'm quite happy to say that I don't want mass adoption overnight, because that would mean that so much has collapsed elsewhere in the world that a lot of people in the world are living in a shit situation, that's well beyond garbage. I wouldn't want to live in that world, and I wouldn't want to be one of the haves in a world of have-nots, because you're pretty easy to find. The privacy people would be like, \"Ah, I told ya.\" so it's, for the, let's build, let Make improvements. Bitcoin's flawed, remember, there's bugs in Bitcoin that need fixing. Let's get all of that done, and then we can discuss if it's gonna be for the few or for, for the many." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:31", "start": 2910.77, "text": "For sure. And so, any final tips or words out there for people who are looking to become builders in the space? Do you have any tips or thoughts for them?" }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "48:40", "start": 2920.17, "text": "Talk to others. If your idea's great, people won't necessarily steal it. it takes a lot. it's not easy. Like any startup, it can fail. But if you look to others and you get guidance, and even in like Bitcoin now, there's Bitcoin only investors and things like that, if fee fee money is for what you're looking to do, and you're willing to, to take those trade-offs, there's, like ten thirty one, four guys, Stillmark, all of these people, Sack Standard, The, the, the Bitcoin ventures which you're involved with, obviously, all of these people are, are looking to back the long term view instead of the, the quick flip, let's look to exit, as soon as possible with a massive multiplier. All of these funds are now here, and there's gonna be more, I'm pretty sure of it, to be able to, to get backing and, and capital to build your ideas. Bitcoin needs builders. If, if people don't back the companies or use the companies that are- Are setting or trying to set the right standards, and create this idea, that aligns with, with your needs. If somebody turns around to me and says, \"Oh, finance is a fraction of a percent cheaper I use there, \"then we're not really aligned, but they'll get there eventually, hopefully. So we, we need more builders, and with more builders, we get more power in markets. The, the size of the market will grow, more people will be exposed to your materials, and messaging that you're putting out Out, which is only gonna orange peel more people if you, if you're doing it from a position of what a lot of people say are core Bitcoin values. So, yeah, we, we need more people, and I'm always open to, to talking to people, but just remember it's not easy, long days, hard work. But when you see somebody using your, what you've created on the other side of the planet, it makes it worth it, absolutely worth it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:36", "start": 3036.48, "text": "That's fantastic, Danny. I think that's a great, message to finish the show with, and maybe we So, Danny, thanks for joining me today." }, { "speaker": "danny_brewster", "time": "50:45", "start": 3045.15, "text": "Thank you, absolute pleasure as always. I hope to see you in London soon. Hope to see you at a conference." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:52", "start": 3051.6, "text": "Get the show notes and the transcript at stephanlivera dot com slash three four five. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }