{ "episodeId": "SLP36", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "justin_moon": { "name": "Justin Moon", "role": "guest", "tag": "JUSTIN" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:04", "start": 4.38, "text": "Welcome to the Stephan Livera podcast." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:11", "start": 11.27, "text": "Hey guys, it's your host, Stephan Livera, and today my guest is Justin Moon. Justin has been doing a lot of really interesting work recently in terms of educating people about Bitcoin with his YouTube videos and also his new Biddle Bootcamp. So, welcome to the show, Justin." }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "00:29", "start": 28.84, "text": "Thanks, Steven. It's great to be here. Great to be here. I'm a, a loyal listener and, I've been following you on the internet. It's great to meet, you know, and actually hear your voice, have a chat with you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:37", "start": 36.96, "text": "Oh, fantastic. Yeah. So look, Justin, I know you've got a really interesting story and you only recently came into Bitcoin, so maybe just start with a little bit of your story on how did you get into Bitcoin and just how did you pick it up so quickly?" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "00:51", "start": 50.67, "text": "Yeah, I've, I've been reflecting on this a little bit. I talked to Mar-- I was" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "01:00", "start": 60.08, "text": "I think for a long time I've thought money's really an interesting idea. Like, when I look back, like, I think a foundational thing for me was that I, I switched schools a lot 'cause I always hated school, and I ended up at like a really fancy rich prep school. And so I was, I was like a lower, you know, middle, middle class, lower middle class kid, surrounded by like, you know, the people who, the, the families who ran all the big companies in Minneapolis where I grew up. And so that was like a, you know, I ended up kind of thinking about money a lot during those, those years, and so it's been kind of in the back of my head a lot. I, I went and, you know, read, read books about money, like, \"Why, why do all these kids have more money than my family does?\" Right? And so I, I'd go and read some of these, these sort of books about financial success and stuff like that. And then I, I, I grew up and, I let that go. And then a couple years, you know, after I, I went You know, I, I started to, I, I learned to code and like, long story short, and I, and after, after school, I, I joined a financial technology startup, and what we were basically doing is making like programmable money, in a sense. And, but we were doing it in, on top of, basically a prepaid API from Mastercard. So we would, we would, we had, we had some software that could, issue these, prepaid debit cards to like everyone in a company, and then they could use apps, like a web app, a mobile app, to handle permissions around spending the company's money on their card without having to, let's say, spend their own money and get reimbursed. And so it was, it was like, it was basically like programmable money. It's like, it's a programmable treasury for the company. You know, you could, an accountant could say like, \"Oh, so-and-so's going on a trip,\" or, \"Oh, manager, let's, let's authorize them to spend some money, but make sure they have to upload receipts, kind of say what, what is necessary in order to, for, for the spending to be valid.\" And so it was like, it was like programmable money, but it wasn't, of" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "03:03", "start": 183.28, "text": "It wasn't, you know, there was no Austrian economics in my mind or anything like that, but, but I was very attracted to this idea of like improving how capital works. And I think that's in the end why I liked this company, and, and the company ended up, I mean, we were close to being a big deal, but it kind of fell apart. And a couple things we did is like, you know, the, the, the Square Cash card that a lot of people have, I, I built, we built the, the API that, that prototyped that" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "03:33", "start": 212.68, "text": "We, we did some cool stuff, but it didn't, didn't end up working at, working as a company. And then so I, you know, after that finished, I sort of like, bounced around for a little while and was looking for the next thing and, and actually- When, you know, the price was going crazy last year, my mom called me one day and was like, \"You know, Justin, I'm really concerned. your dad is-- Your dad is buying these like internet coins, and he wasn't, like, wasn't investing in them. He was, he was, he just liked the meme coins. Like, Putin coin was his favorite coin. He thought it was-- He just wanted to go to the grocery store and pay with Putin coin, 'cause he just thought that was so funny, or like pay his taxes in Putin Just like, and so that was when I, you know, I'd encountered Bitcoin, but I always thought it was sort of like a stupid nerd thing, right? I didn't think it was something normal people would be interested in. And, and that was the thing that made me check my assumptions. It was like, hey, something's going on here. My dad, you know, doesn't-- not really tech literate, can't really send text messages, you know, it, it wasn't that he was using it as an investment, he just thought it was like, he thought there So, yeah, so I was like, \"Oh, there's something here,\" and so that, that kind of was a year ago or so, and I just like slowly got more and more interested in it, and then about six months ago, I, I kind of said, like, \"Hey, I, I should really pursue this like, kind of full time.\" Because I have the right background, like I, you know, I have a math degree, I know how to code, I've read some economics books, like I had, I have, you know, Bitcoin's very interdisciplinary, and so, if you have a two or three of these things that it builds upon, I think, I think that helps you, helps you kind of transition. And so, so then I went and did, Jimmy Song's Programming blockchain class, which I really recommend, it's great if you're a programmer, this is like Bitcoin programming, and, and that really got me started and, and, and then, you know, it's been just kind of, the last, that was six months ago. And so that's, that's basically when I decided to make a run at it, and, and yeah, here I am. So I've only really been in Bitcoin for six months." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:38", "start": 337.6, "text": "Yeah, fantastic story, Justin. Now, I didn't want to cut you off earlier, and one question I had was around the payments narrative, right? So you came from what was arguably the FinTech background in a payments company. Now, many of those people who had that certain focus, they sort of got distracted by things like B-Cash and falling into what, you know, Pierre Rochard might have termed something like a payments maximalist position and worrying too much about, you know, oh, how many TPS? Yes, transactions per second, rather than understanding Bitcoin as a broader sound money aspect. How did you avoid falling into that payments trap?" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "06:17", "start": 377.35, "text": "I think because I looked at it briefly a couple years ago and it seemed like it was just crap for payments, like it wasn't-- Novi's is like objectively better at payments and right, and, and Mastercard and all that, and so it's like, You know, I, I was-- that, that illusion was, was, I, I lost that years ago because it's just like, it's just clearly better, and so that's, that's basically explains why I didn't get into it for so long. It's like, I had that, I, so yeah, better way of saying is like, I did have payments maximalism. I thought that like, the important thing for a financial technology was like how easy or, you know, how useful it was for payments, and so, so that's why I didn" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "07:01", "start": 421.27, "text": "Screw Bitcoin, it's like, it's just like need-needlessly complicated, right? And so, so yeah, like that was really like losing that and understanding that, that basically money could be improved. Like, I, I just never, that just never occurred to me that you could improve money. I thought it was like, I don't know, I thought it was like some Platonic ideal that, like, we inherited, you know? And it's just like this, this thing that you can't change, right? It's just like an, like a Like a natural element of our universe. And so when, when I, when I had that, when I questioned that, I was like, \"Oh, you could actually-- Like, there's this really smart group of people who's actually trying to change money. And, and that, then, not that they were, but like that, that's important. 'Cause like at the end of the day, I think my-- I'm, I'm really like a capitalist. I believe that, that just, that, that the, you know, the price mechanism, markets, You know, free markets are really what drive progress and make the world better. And so, you know, when I see a-- when I see a, you know, I've always, when I was, when I seen like a controlled mar-- like some, some market the government manages, I'm like, \"Oh, how horrible, this is like, we should get rid of that.\" But then it never occurred to me that money was a controlled market by the government, right? And so like that's, really what that's when it hit me, is like, \"Oh yeah, payments For capital, right? The most important market for if you're, if you're sort of like of the capitalist persuasion. So, so that was really what made me turn away from, from payments and, and look towards like monetary policy. But I guess, you know, a related thing, just as like a side note, is like, I actually was interested in Ethereum much earlier. I, you know, this is like the other loophole, right? Or this is the other thing people get stuck on, right? It's like the, I don't know, what would you call" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "08:48", "start": 528.28, "text": "the-- The And Max, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Smart contract, blockchain, utility, yeah, like some utility thing, right? like they want, they want utility of whatever the heck that means. And so, So yeah, I, I encountered that like four, five years ago, ba-basically. Like, I was interested in Ethereum before the ICO, I just never thought it was an investment, I thought it was like, app development platform basically, so I never thought of buying any. But, like when it came out, you know, I, I forgot about for a while when it came out, I tried to build like a bookie, right? 'Cause I'm like, I'm sitting here like, \"Well, what, you know, what could I build with this that I can't build with AWS, Amazon Web Services, right? \" 'Cause that was like, Amazon Web Services is like the old school centralized world computer, and Ethereum is like the new school decentralized world computer. So I'm like, \"Okay, if this is such a great thing, I should" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "09:44", "start": 584.46, "text": "And, I just completely failed. It was, it seemed-- it just, I couldn't figure out how to get it to work and, I had trouble running the node and I had trouble-- I just had trouble all over the place. And so, so that kind of, after that point, I wasn't really interested in Ethereum anymore 'cause it was just, it seemed like- So I gave it a shot, and, I, you know, there's only so much time, and so I, I, I turned away from that as well. And, and yeah, and, and Bitcoin, of, of all these different value propositions that people in the, this quote-unquote crypto space present, like the kind of the monetary maximalist is the only position that, that really stuck. Like, I, I have a very open mind and I'll consider every one of them, but it's the only one that I, that, that really I was able" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:30", "start": 630.26, "text": "Excellent. So on this topic of monetary maximalism, what is it that drove you to that belief? And then, I guess, the next part is, what, how do you think about this idea of conviction, you know, conviction of belief in Bitcoin superiority?" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "10:46", "start": 646.34, "text": "I think, I mean, the thing that really got me was, like, I, I mean, this is kind of a cop out, but, you know, reading Safdie's book and, the Bitcoin Standard and reading basically everything on the Nakamoto Institute, the website. That Pierre Rochard and Bitstein, Michael Goldstein run, was really like the, the thing that completely rewired my beliefs on these things. Like, I, I just never-- I never encountered any of these ideas before, like the history of money, The kind of the properties it has, the, some of the shortcomings current money had with old money, the, the, the, the fact that like a free market money would behave very differently than a fiat money, like, like to me that was the thing that Just understanding that our, our current condition wasn't really natural, and, and that, you know, the, the economy worked really well when we had a gold standard, you know, in the late 1800s, which Sa-Safing really goes in depth with in his book. To me, that was like the-- and it's, and like I'm an engineer, so I, I really appreciate simplicity. And so, you know, like, like all of us, I took an economics class at some point and was like, \"None of this makes any sense, right?\" And like, you know, I always have a math-- I was studying math, like, I can figure out, I can understand what you're saying, but it's like, \"Boy, it seems contrived and convoluted, And then so you present You know, like, you know, you have this, the central bank that like creates money out of nowhere and has, you know, gives it to them and, you know, gives it here and there and, kind of like, you know, there's this whole, whole industries that, that spend all their time just trying to interpret what this oracle says. It seems like primitive to me. It seems like stuff they used to do in ancient Greece. And, and so like to the engineer in me, and, and, you know, and that's sort of the monetary side, the" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "12:40", "start": 760.48, "text": "are on a technical level, just like houses of cards. Like when we built this previous kind of API for issuing debit and credit cards, like programmable debit and credit cards, they sent us their API documentation in a bunch of Excel files, and we basically had to parse these Excel files and sort of like generate a schema that we thought their API would follow and then test it. And of course, it was wrong all over the place, and there's all kinds of undocumented behavior, and, eventually we were gonna do a, this is like with one of the multi-billion dollar- Payment processors, like a really big company, ten multi, a huge company we were interacting with, and, you know, we were gonna do a credit card platform and it, it actually ran on a mainframe. And so it's like, it's like this, to the engineer in me, this is all like super convoluted, 'cause you, you know, you want like a simple system, like simple systems work, work the best, and it's all about choosing what the right kind of-- in a system, it's all, you know, having the sm- right abstractions and having complicated things, like that's what a really good system looks like. And to both the monu-- US monetary system and to the, like, the financial system, like the world monetary system, the world financial system, they're both like extremely contrived and there's just, there's just so much like, Access that you could cut away, and, and so that's, I think that's one of the other things as I started to do more actual like Bitcoin programming and understood how, like, the, the protocol works, it's like, oh my God, you know, there's like-- Like, that was one of the things I think that really got me mo-- interested is like, it's just, it's just so much more simple and elegant, and I think that will lead to just inefficiencies all over the place based on my experience as a programmer. So, so yeah, that's the-- Question, like, I guess, you know, when you compare Bitcoin to other things, it's like, I just, I tend not to see many differences in terms of like what it does. Like, I don't- I don't think there are, you know, I come at this from like, you know, spending some time in the startup community and like, you know, you, if you want to, if you want to displace a, an incumbent in a startup environment You have to be way, way, way better than them, right? Like we were trying to, you know, displace, for example, we had like an expense management product, and we were trying to displace ExpenseFly. Like it had to be We ended up not being good enough and, and, and, you know, to, to, to displace an incumbent, you have to be like, you know, not incrementally better, but, but vastly better, just because there's all these hidden switching costs, which you understand better by reading some economics, and, and like, there's all these, there's all these like hidden costs that, that are on the other side of any, of any like foreseeable benefit, right? Like the idea that, that Ethereum has an added benefit of being more programmable, right? That's true Like there are, there are benefits there, but there are also costs, right? It's much harder to secure a system that has a, basically a more complicated programming language embedded inside it. And so, so yeah, when I, so I come at it from that angle, like you have to be vastly better. And so when I look at, things that are non-Bitcoin, it's like they don't really seem much different, like, you know, like maybe you could look at something like, like Monero and say, maybe, yeah, it's a little better, like ' But then again, maybe it isn't, because it's like a little less security, right? And security is really the thing that matters most. In, you know, magic internet money, you want it to be really secure, that's the thing that's gonna go wrong most of the, most of the time. And so like, it arguably has more benefit. But then like- That's not nearly enough benefit to unseat an incumbent, and that's what Bitcoin is at this point. We're like ten years in, Bitcoin is an incumbent, it has a really strong position, and so like when I look at competitive, like competing currencies, it's like something, like I'd be open to something if it were truly better, but it'd have to be better in, inclusive of all switching costs and all these hidden costs of, you know, everybody on redoing their cold storage and all the, you know, the online payment things like BTC Pay, Server, BitPay, Completely changing. Everybody has to relearn how this new thing works. You throw away all the branding that Bitcoin accumulated over ten years, like it, better it has to be inclusive of all these things, and, and when I look around, nothing's close. Nothing is even, nothing is close at all. So, so yeah, at this point, I'm not even interested. I'm just not interested. They're, they're not enough to overcome the huge lead that Bitcoin has. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:15", "start": 1035.42, "text": "Yeah, fantastic thoughts. And it's, it's, it's excellent that you can bring such a mature view to this, having only been in the game for what six or twelve months, right? and I guess if I had to summarize your thoughts, it's around Bitcoin's overall simplicity versus the, the modern-day banking world, and also just the fact that in order to displace Bitcoin, it pretty much has to be, you know, ten x better to use the sort of often used, VC wording. Yeah. You have to be wearing a" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "17:47", "start": 1066.82, "text": "vest, you have to be wearing a, a vest, a Patagonia vest to say that, I think it's like a, I believe." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:53", "start": 1072.95, "text": "No vest on today for me. yeah, so how about- Now it's, this is an area where it's very common to make errors. There are so many pitfalls. Let me, let me jump in and just say" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "18:03", "start": 1083.48, "text": "one thing. Like, I think one of the things, I think it's, I think it, one of the things that's really great about Bitcoin is that you get this slow drip of new people, and the slow drip of new people are gonna, like, the crypta-- you don't have any new cryptographers coming in, like, all the cryptographers got it in the past, so they're never gonna get it. And People from like a startup fintech background, and, and we bring in like, you know, the next generation is gonna be heavier on Wall Street, you know, the Wall Street people are just starting to get it. And so I think it's really great how you have these, these, these new kind of generations of people coming in, and they all have their unique and valuable experiences, and I think that's a really great thing about Bitcoin just in terms of its strength as a, as sort of a, as sort of a social phenomenon, but I think it's also a great thing about, you know college and interesting, diverse people, and I think that's just like, I don't know, people like the mainstream view on this just doesn't get that at all. It's like it's such a diverse group of people, like, so I teach this class and like right now, I mean, we have like a rapper, we have a new mother, we have like people from all, any kind of technical background, we have like I mean, we have, we have, we have people all over the world, like it's just a super-- people from like a financial background, attorneys, accountants, we have like all these different backgrounds, and I think that's really a great thing about Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:32", "start": 1171.73, "text": "Yeah, I like that as well. I like that there's a big mix of people who are now coming into Bitcoin. I think it's, it's also just been very challenging because there are so many ways that people get distracted. do you have any ideas on, on that?" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "19:47", "start": 1186.7, "text": "Oh, sure, yeah. I mean, One. like, I mean, my latest thing about this that sort of keeps me up at night is, so I went to the, the Lightning Hack Day, right? And so this was in New York City, it was like, it was like a, a two-day hackathon, and before that was this, residency for Lightning development at Chaincode Labs, and so I, I came like, at when that was ending, like, I applied to that and they didn't let me in 'cause I hadn't done anything with Lightning. And the reason I hadn't done anything" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "20:20", "start": 1219.98, "text": "There's so many shiny object objects that if you chase every one of them, you're never gonna get anywhere. So I've, I've purposely ignored Lightning, even though I think it's fascinating. And so when this like residency comes, I try to apply, of course they reject me, 'cause like I haven't, I clearly haven't even attempted anything. And then so I, I come to last day and watch the pitches, and I'm just like, \"Oh my god, what an amazing missed opportunity.\" But at the end of the day, I wouldn't change" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "20:46", "start": 1246.28, "text": "what I did 'cause like Trying to understand how the Bitcoin protocol works on a technical level, like every once in a while I'll read an article on Lightning, I'll read an article on monetary policy, maybe I'll try to read some Austrian economics or some, some of these people recommend to me, but like, I don't get very far on any of the stuff besides like actually trying to understand how the Bitcoin protocol works on a technical level, and the really the foundation, and that's all I've done for six months, and I'm starting to get a grasp on it, but like, I've had to ignore everything" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "21:20", "start": 1279.66, "text": "so yeah, that, that's been really successful for me just, just ignoring it, and, and I mean, sometimes you fall into the trap. I think one of the most dangerous things is watching the price, because it's like You just, you just really gotta not do that. It just, it just hijacks your mind. Like, and we're all, I don't know, even like, I tell myself, \"Oh, I'm some like, you know, I'm a programmer, I'm in it for the right reasons.\" No, I'm not. I mean, like, if I'd stare at that price too long, I'd become possessed by it, just like everybody else. So that's, that's pretty, that's pretty dangerous. I think, I don't know, I think I'll The cash, the crypto trader people on Twitter, and I think that's a pretty dangerous thing to do too. Like, I think the smart thing to do is just like lock it away and try to, you know, pay your bills in some other manner, because, yeah, I think Yeah, I think you, at the end of the day, you just wanna be productive, and if you, if you find some like windfall financial gain, you shouldn't stop being productive. It's kind of like what, what lottery winners do, and that, that really doesn't turn out well. So that's something I see people do that, like, I, I wish they'd do a little less of. And I really try, you know, if I get lucky and the Bitcoin I bought very recently, appreciates, like, I'm gonna try not to like live off And yeah, I, I mean, another, yeah, like I, I've never heard anyone talk about that, but like every, a lot of these conferences I go to, yeah, it's like a lot of these people just kind of stop being productive and like, you know, humans are kind of beasts of burden. We need to, you need to like pull a heavy load and, and so, that's something I really try to, I'm gonna try to avoid, and I think, and then, another big kind of error I see people do, yeah, I Dwell on this, right? It's like, like that's, this is what all that Coinbase thinks about. This is like all that Bitmain, you know, like the, all the biggest companies besides basically like Pitney, they're all kind of dwelling on how to make a better Bitcoin. All the VCs, everyone's like, either because they actually think it's possible or because they're trying to scam people, and like, I think you really, I, I just don't think people think about that properly. Like, they don't think of all the switching costs involved" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "23:45", "start": 1424.62, "text": "group of people that Bitcoin has accumulated over ten years. I just don't think they-- I think everyone dwells on that, and I don't think it's like-- I think they really misunderstand it, and, you know, a lot of the people who've done that got, you know, wrecked buying altcoins last, you know, in the past or, I don't know, they're just in these like ridiculous, you know, they're just like over-engineering everything. Like one thing you learn doing startups is like, you know, you really wanna avoid over-engineering, redoing things, writing code too fast. Like, you see, like I look at Ethereum now and I, I see them, you know, there's a lot of stuff about, it seems like they're trying to start, start to hurry development, like they're clearly behind schedule, they've promised all these things and can never ship them, and now they're gonna try" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "24:32", "start": 1472.04, "text": "Watch, watches or a software development environment, watch that happen, it's really red flags because you just can't make this stuff go any faster. And then you look at Bitcoin and it's like, boy, these people have like- The patience of angels, like, you know, the, the, the Bitcoin developers are so patient. Like, you go on, you know, Pierre, Pierre Richard has this great site called Bitcoin Acks, A C K S. That kind of tracks, you know, what's moving, how the, how the, how the, attempted changes to the Bitcoin code are, are progressing. And a lot of these things, they're not accepted for like six months, right? And like- That's a year, you know, it's, it's a really long time to wait for a small code change, you know, like ten or twenty lines of code, but that's how it should be in something that's so mission critical and important, and, and that conservatism I really like about the Bitcoin core developers, and I really admire it, 'cause I tend to be kind of a cowboy when I'm coding, like I, I don't, I'm not nearly as conservative as I should be, and so I really admire that, and then, and then you look at The seat-of-the-pants decisions that these Bitcoin Cash forks have made, you know, like disallowing, like hardcoding a protection against, ten plus block reorgs, like stuff like that, it's like, I'd, I'd- I think that the conservatism of Bitcoin's really superior to, to those philosophies." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:01", "start": 1561.37, "text": "Yeah, and I think it, you, I like the comments you were making, and it also ties back to this idea of working on something that's meaningful. And people need meaning, and it's not, you know, some people may have, and there are cases of Bitcoin rich people who continue working, not because, you know, they need to work, but because they want to, and they've chosen a career in an area that is meaningful to them. And part of that is you wanna work on a protocol that you believe is going to last for the long run." }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "26:29", "start": 1589.41, "text": "Yeah, it's a beautiful, I mean, it's a beautiful setup that, like, I was talking to some friend in the startup world, and it's like, we were just talking about the kind of the incentives of the Bitcoin core developers, and like, you know, you look at some of these people who've been around a long time, you know, if they bothered to buy any coins, it's appreciated a lot, and they're now like, kind of, financially secure, and so you, you have this like class of people who is-- who are all financially secure, who don't really need a, a steady income, and they're, they're able to, like They're, they're extremely independent, and then they're also, you know, it's, it's, it's like an opt-in completely merit, meritocratic environment. So, You know, you just get sort of the most random, you know, you get such a, such a kind of a, a diverse group of people that are the, you know, the, the most prolific contributors to Bitcoin Core, and I think that's like, I mean, I don't know of any other system that's really like that, where the, kind of the financial incentives of the, the developers are, are at once so aligned with the success of the project, but also, sort of like You know, nobody can, you know, there's kind of no boss to like punish them in any way. They all can assert their independence in a very, very strong way that a traditional kind of hierarchical organization just doesn't allow, like, an individual contributor to do, right? You always have, you're always accountable to this structure of bosses and stuff, which is really great in, many conditions, but I think in terms of like such a purely kind of like a, a really technical, development of a product protocol, it's, it's probably better to have this independence and this freedom, and you don't run into this problem like that, you know, some of these open source projects have, where they have like one guy who's maintained it for ten years, who's a genius and who's broke, right? that's a big problem that open source projects have. Many of these like cryptography libraries that underlie the internet, it's like, you, you can go read an article, they're maintained by one guy who basically like lives in a doghouse, right? It's, it it's too bad, and it's, it's not a good thing for that protocol, but Bitcoin kind of escapes this problem in a unique way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:54", "start": 1734.21, "text": "let's now talk about this idea of, sort of related as well, is this idea of building up a career without necessarily going through the traditional pathway for that. so for example, there are a lot of people now who are doing learning, you know, learning to code online, and they don't necessarily have a computer science degree. Do you wanna talk about that?" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "29:15", "start": 1754.83, "text": "Yeah, I mean, this is one of the, like if I weren't doing Bitcoin stuff, I would probably be working in education. like, you know, I, I, I've jumped around schools all the time when I was a kid 'cause I always hated the schools I was in. I finally got to this fancy prep school, ended up dropping out, probably was the first kid in forever that dropped out. And then I went to college, briefly dropped out again, finally got a math, like an honors math degree. So I have like this really weird, academic background. Like And I just have hated school every time I'm there, so I, I really like this, I like what's happening where you, where, like really highly regarded employers For example, like Wall Street banks, startups, stuff like that, they're starting to hire more people who don't come from, like, that for reasons other than Pure credentials, which is the way it was for a couple decades here, and I think that's a really, a really good thing because I think a lot of these programs, are super expensive and don't add an-v-very much value, they basically just- You know, like if you're, if you make it through Harvard, it's not like Harvard added anything, it's like you were the one, one in a thousand that could run the gauntlet, and so you just had that kind of innatability, or, I mean, mostly innatability, right? Mostly IQ, like that's really what is, is being signaled, like you were able to get sixteen hundred on your SAT, good for you. and so I think it's, I think it's a lot better to-- or you had a really good work ethic, right? To, like I see all these opportunities that people are finding to, to build a career, to find meaningful work, and to, to assemble, to figure out how to do this in like six months or a year instead of like four to six to like, I mean, sometimes like ten years, right? If you do a, a s- undergrad and then get a PhD, that's ten years, right? My friends, some of my friends are getting medical degrees. It's like four years plus another four plus three, it's like eleven years, right? And then you actually get a job" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "31:26", "start": 1885.83, "text": "So, so I, I'm really excited about some of this stuff, and so that, and that's why I little, you know, ramble a little bit there, but, and so, yeah, like one of the, one of the things that's really, and, and this gets into what I'm kind of working on now is like, it's, one of the things that's really interesting is like, I think there's You know, I think that the number of programming jobs doubles like every five years. I think that's been one of these like consistent trends over the last like fifty years. I, I forget if it's five years or less than that, it's like, it's kind of like a Moore's law type thing, it just consistently doubles. And so, you know, we're finally getting to the point where it's like your everyday person kind of has a reason to learn to code, and there's just like endless employers, software's eating everything. And so, I just think this is" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "32:12", "start": 1932.02, "text": "Two thousand dollars on this like math degree, and no one's ever asked me for a diploma. I've never-- most of the, I only recently started using any of the, specific things I learned actually to understand how like Bitcoin digital signatures work. We actually used some math that I studied in college, which was kind of cool. But that's the only time it's ever been useful. And so I had to put up with like two and a half years of this crap, whereas, like, if I had, if I had gotten interested in Bitcoin, I'm surely could have-- I Motivated. So, so I think this is, this is like a big change. It's like people find, you can, instead of like this, like just in case learning, where you say, you know, I'm gonna go learn all this stuff just in case I need it, you can go find something you're really interested in. Like, let's say I wanna be a Bitcoin developer, let's say, you know, I want to be a writer or, like, you know, like some sort of, like, a, you know, content creator on the internet or And so, so yeah, like I, I had this math degree, it never was worth anything, and then I, I did a coding class online. It was, I, I did a, I tried a couple free ones and I never actually got anywhere, and then I did a paid one where I paid like three hundred bucks a month and was like kind of accountable to a mentor, and that was actually what got me to turn the corner. And so within six months after, that was like a three month course in, during college, after I finished that within a couple weeks, I was able to get my first like internship and then a job, and so like every dollar I've made basically for the past five years has been because of that nine hundred dollars I spent on that class. the fifty thousand dollars I spent on a math degree has been completely useless in an economic sense. And so, yeah, I, I see a lot of this stuff that's kind of opening up. And, you know, I'm really jealous of these like eighteen-year-old kids who get a pro-- a coding job, you know? Like there's some really young kids in Bitcoin now that are starting to contribute in a big way, and it's like, good god, you guys, it's, it's such a better path. You get to escape crushing debt, you get to find meaningful work immediately, you get, you get this like experience in the real world while everybody else is still getting kind of like theoretical knowledge and getting polluted by ideologies, like, like everyone at a university is like a Marxist these" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "34:22", "start": 2062.38, "text": "Escape that environment without being polluted a little bit with some of these like kind of anti-productive, ideologies. So, so yeah, I just think there's, I think there's a like, there's some huge asymmetries in education right now, you know, like this nine hundred dollar class has gotten me ten, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars in pay, in salary over the years, and then like my fifty thousand dollar degree is, is worthless. And you see this all over the place, like, you know, I, I really encourage everybody involved in Bitcoin to If you don't know about, if you never, if you don't have a, like, if you have a fulfilling career, that's great. Like, I think most people should just continue doing that and then buy Bitcoin. Like, in terms of like what, if you wanna help, like, you know, that's, that's a good way to help, right? Help adoption by adopting it yourself. That's probably the most you can do. But if you don't have a, a career, a fulfilling career, like try coding. You really should try it. I think everyone should try it." }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "35:21", "start": 2120.79, "text": "In, unless you already have a thing, you know? And so, and I think it's, I think, I think it's a lot easier than people think. Like, it's actually possible, you don't have to be a genius. there's, you know, the average programmer makes like over a hundred thousand dollars, and you can do that within like two years. Usually, you can get enough experience to get like to a mid-level position that pays like that. it's really fun. It's like a, it's like a, if you like video That's, that's, that's kind of one of the things I'm, I'm really big on, is like, if you, if you don't have a fulfilling career, consider learning to code, because it's a really fulfilling career for many people, and it pays really well, and it gives you a lot of financial and time and location freedom. And so, so yeah, that's kind of, rambled a little bit there again, but," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:12", "start": 2172.46, "text": "but yeah, that's, Yeah, no, I think that's a great way Competing theories of how you demonstrate your value. One of those is this idea that, you know, you, you signal and you get a credential from the university or from the gatekeeper. And then the other model that they sort of say is, \"Oh, well, actually, maybe some of that value is coming from what's called the human capital model, as in those universities are really teaching you marketable skills.\" But then the question, and to your, to what you were saying earlier, is that there is that big price differential because if you are just paying eight hundred dollars for a coding class versus paying dollars for a math degree, well, there's a big, big difference. Now, another model some people have spoken about is this idea of kinda like signaling, but in a different way. So let's say you learn to code, but then you need a way to signal to future employers that you, have-- that you can code, right? And one way is to have a, a portfolio on GitHub and so on. that-- what are some ways that you can demonstrate your ability?" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "37:20", "start": 2240.37, "text": "Yeah, I mean, one of the things, there are, like, when people learn to code, they're, like, so I've, I've, this is kind of like my Twitter brand, it's like I help, I help, I basically help hodlers learn to code, like that's what I've been doing, as I've kind of broken into Bitcoin, I, I found that, like, there was a lot of people who were interested and like nobody helping them. So that's kind of, I have a lot of people that I talk to that I'm kind It's a hard thing to answer, like, for me personally, what I did was I went and showed up to like every meetup I could find. I built like one, I built one project that was really crappy and if you were a experienced programmer, but if you were a complete noob like I was, it was, it showed a lot of like resourcefulness. And so I would just go to meetups and like talk to people, and if anybody was like, you know, had a company of any kind, I'd, I'd kind of show them the, the thing. And I Who was one of the first programmers at Pinterest, was like, \"I got a startup, it sounded kind of interesting, \"and I showed him, and like, boom, I was basically hired. and so, so like what worked for me was like just building something, just, Doing the best I could while I was still unsophisticated, and like there aren't a lot of, you know, there aren't a lot of people out there who are new to it that can actually produce. Like that's, you wanna demonstrate the ability to produce. That's what any kind of employer wants. They look at, when you're an employer, you look at people and say, \"Like, can this person produce? Can this person, can I tell them a end goal and will they make it happen?\" And for most people, the answer is no. And so if you can just" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "39:02", "start": 2342.3, "text": "The, the surest way to get hired as a programmer is to just have this, this GitHub, it's like kind of, kind of a portfolio. If you have like one or two interesting projects there that, relate to whatever you're trying to do, that are like not just super basic, like you're already in this super elite category 'cause just not, there aren't many people like that. You, you just go to this like rarefied air, instantly. And, another, a lot of other ways is like in Bitcoin in particular, like, I Like basically, you know, mess people at a conference, started giving them, I do like a once a week, like hour long class where I basically taught whatever I learned that week. And it was mostly like the peer to peer network programming, how to like, one of the first thing we did is we wrote a crawler that could go crawl all the, the nodes on the network, or not all the nodes, all the nodes that advertised their presence and weren't using Tor. And so we'd go and crawl that, we ended up basically doing a simple version of initial block download, and this took And, and actually, Rigel, one of your previous guests, was one of the people that I met at a conference, and he'd, he'd kinda hop on. Oh, nice. And, and so this was like a really good thing because I just started like sharing what I learned, and, you know, within like three months, like this was on Jamison Lopes', resources page, you know, his, his, his, his list of all the best resources in Bitcoin, you know, it's got like, you know, tons of views" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "40:32", "start": 2432.46, "text": "Invite people and then give them a talk on what you know. Like these are all ways that, you can demonstrate what you know, like giving talks, you know, like putting out some content on YouTube, putting a thing on GitHub, talking at a, a conference. And, and there's just a huge-- like wherever you are, there's a shortage of this stuff. People will, if your content is good at all, if you understand what you're doing at all, you can create good content really. And if your content is good at all, there's tons of people" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "41:02", "start": 2462.3, "text": "It's kind of rarefied air 'cause people are too lazy to do that really, there aren't just aren't many people that go and do all these things. So, so those are a couple ways that you can just sort of like, that's what my, my recommendation is always just like, go produce something, just be like, Just be like, when you, when you get into some sort of like, like you want to just exude productivity to whoever is considering hiring you when you're trying to break into a field, and you'll just get hired instantly, because just most people aren't productive, that's my experience, and that's what I kind of try to-- It's, it's sort of like a wishy-washy description, but I think this is, this is the, the way you gotta do it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:41", "start": 2501.05, "text": "Yeah, exactly. I think, hopefully the listeners are And, if they wanna learn, tell them a little bit about Biddle Bootcamp and the structure of it." }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "41:53", "start": 2512.96, "text": "Biddle Bootcamp, yeah. So Biddle Bootcamp, it's, you know, I don't think anybody likes the word \"biddle.\" It's kind of like a stupid, like \"hodl\" is cool, \"biddle,\" it's, you don't even know how to pronounce it, but it's like a- Agreed. Yeah, I don't really like it myself, but it's like, it's very descriptive," }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "42:17", "start": 2536.51, "text": "The Bitcoin Programming Bootcamp. So the long-term vision is like, let's say, in a couple years when we have our next bull market, and we have this flood of programmers who wanna learn how Bitcoin works I would like to be able to plug them into this class and in like, maybe three months part time, get them up to speed so they're kind of like, Bitcoin programmer, they could, they could switch from, you know, whatever banking job they have to maybe a Bitcoin job once the, there's that more of a market for this stuff. But at the, at the moment there, there honestly aren't many Bitcoin programmer jobs and they're all filled by people who've been at it for a few years who are super, super expert. And so kind of on my way to that, like that's my end goal, what I'm at right now is I basically teach hodlers how to code. so like we have these, we basically have three kind of extended projects we do, and, you know, maybe half my class is a somewhat experienced programmer, half my class is kind of new. I send them to a, intro Python programming class. Python is a programming language. It's like the simplest language, which is why I use it. So like the ideas are really complex, you want a very simple language. So that that's the language isn't what's confusing us, it's the confusing ideas or the complex ideas rather. And so, so yeah, that's kind of the breakdown. Maybe half the people are experienced, half the people are new. And so we do these three projects, and this is how I'm teaching people how Bitcoin works. The first project is we build a little mini implementation of the Bitcoin network in Python. So it's a little mini network that can run on your computer that, has all the core ideas of Bitcoin, right? It has like proof of work mining, it has transaction It has digital signatures, it has, a peer-to-peer network, so you, you know, these, you can run multiple peers and they have to all kind of connect to each other and propagate new transactions and blocks. it has chain reorganizations, which is like the lat- we're still kind of working on, I'm still kind of working on that, but, I mean, to be able to, to be able to go through and build a project step by step that can actually do a chain reorganization, this is when, you know, you have" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "44:24", "start": 2663.6, "text": "surpasses the longest chain that you have, and then so that becomes kind of your new chain if it, if it, you know, someone else's chain, gets longer than yours, you have to go and basically rewind history and then, play history forward on this new chain, updating, like, basically undoing your UTXO database and redoing it, on this new chain. and that's really hard to do, and like my students now, many of whom didn't know how to program a month ago, are learning how to do this, which is" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "44:54", "start": 2693.6, "text": "Beginning, like, it's really hard. So this was inspired by a project called Tiny Chain. Tiny Chain's like a thousand line little mini implementation of Bitcoin. And by the way, this doesn't like interoperate with the real Bitcoin network at all. It's like a little separate mini thing. And, and so I saw this and I was like, \"This really helped me understand, but it's like, well, how do you teach people about this? there's just so many things going on at once, you really wanna find a way to build it up incrementally.\" And so" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "45:24", "start": 2723.6, "text": "Well, PNG coin, PNG for the, like, dot PNG photograph. All right. the way this, the way it's transferred is like you take a picture of a, of a physical signature saying like, \"I, Alice, give this coin to Bob,\" and then you sign Alice, right? And so you can visually inspect the history of any, every one of these coins, and, and by, by opening up these PNG files, and you can see whether the coin's valid or not, right? It has-- and it actually is kind of, you could use it as digital Trivially counterfeit, the first transaction is basically issued by Donald Trump. He's like, \"I, Donald Trump, give this to you,\" and it's a picture of him holding up the executive order. So like, you can go and create one of these in a meme generator, right? So you can, you can, you can, you can, create fake coins easily. You can, you know, say, \"I, Alice,\" yada, yada, and sign Alice, even if you're not Alice. You can forge transactions. You can double spend because And I'll make another transfer, give it to a different person. They have no idea who got it first. it's-- it has like every problem. I won't go over every problem. And so what we do is, step by step, we t-address the biggest problem and we make like a slightly better version. So the obvious first thing to do is remove the, the photographs of analog signatures. And so we do that. We introduce digital signatures, which is what Bitcoin uses, and they're great. And so you actually understand, like, \"Oh, this is why Bitcoin-- our digital" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "46:54", "start": 2813.6, "text": "And then the next problem is like, well, these can still be really dou-easily double-spent, so we introduced like a bank, right? And that's great, a bank, a cen-a central central authority can remove the risk of double spending, but, you know, it has some other risks, right? It becomes a honeypot for activists and stuff like that, and so eventually we end up making like a peer-to-peer network. And so the problem with that is like, well, how do you keep your nodes in sync? Initially, we have like a fixed" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "47:22", "start": 2841.96, "text": "number want to participate, so it's not like a syndicate, you need some way for them to agree, and that's what Bitcoin proof of work is, and, you know, if you do that, then, You know, sometimes you have, you know, Bitcoin's proof of work model is really interesting because it, it actually allows like two valid chains to happen at the same time, right? Like, if two people mine the, a block at the same time, both chains are kind of valid, and Bitcoin just says, \"Well, we'll see who wins over time and who, which, which chain gets longer.\" And so, you know, you have to be able to handle that now, which is like chain organizations. And so over these many steps, we basically, you know, implement all these And at the end, you have basically a mini Bitcoin, and you really understand every line of it. It's a thousand lines, it's a very large program, it's pretty complicated, and you understand it. So I think that's a really cool, way of teaching Bitcoin. Like, this is just like what I wish I would have had access to when I got involved. Like, I wish somebody would have-- I'm just making the class I wish I would have had when I got involved. And so, that's the first thing we do. The second thing is we- We do this like raw Bitcoin network programming, so we, we go and go to the site bitnodes.earn.com, it's like a, it's just a site that shows all the nodes on the network, and so you go and look up an IP address, right? The hostname and the port, and you write a little couple lines of Python code that will go try to connect to them, and of course, like the connection doesn't really work for some reason, and so we pull up some documentation and you learn about this version handshake. The version handshake is basically how two nodes on the Bitcoin network will communicate to each other, it's like a very specific protocol you have to do. And so once you learn how to do that, then you can actually exchange messages with this node. And so we tried a couple different messages, and this is like, you know, really raw, low-level programming. So you're only-- you're sending like bytes over the network, which are basically numbers between zero and two fifty-five, two hundred fifty-five. And so," }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "49:24", "start": 2963.87, "text": "You have to figure out what these numbers between zero and two fifty-five mean, and, you know, we, you know, we learn how to do this in excruciating detail so that, you know, if someone sends us a block that is just a bunch of numbers between zero and two fifty-five, we can actually interpret, you know, what the third transaction's second output is in that block because we, you know, we learn how to We learn what every byte means, and so this is really, I think it's a really interesting pro-project, and, it really gives you a sense of the distributed nature of, and permissionless nature of the Bitcoin network, right? Like usually when you're doing a coding project, the first thing you do is you go get API keys, right? If you wanna code on Stripe, you have to go get API keys, which is permission to participate. In Bitcoin, that's not the case. In Bitcoin, you just have to figure out how to do the version handshake, how to talk to your And, do initial block download, you know, go and validate the first couple hundred transactions, thousand transactions, and so that's the second block, like all this like raw Bitcoin network programming. And the third block, the third part of the course people the hardware wallet. And so the hardware wallet is, we take a generic piece of hardware called an M5 Stack. It's a forty dollar thing that has a screen and buttons and a little mini, microcontroller, like a tiny little computer inside it, and then we use the same co- basically the same cri- Heavily optimized cryptography code that Trezor uses on their devices to do like digital signatures and stuff really quickly on a low, underpowered device. And we basically build a little mini Trezor, and, and that's really cool 'cause you learn about what a private key is, how they're generated, how you can, you know, generate, you know, You know, how, how seed word-words work, how you generate a, how you generate seed words, how you can get a secret from seed words, stuff like that. And so it's, it's, it's quite a lot of fun, and you get to like, you know, write a little, create a little UI for a hardware wallet. And so, so that's another like really fun little project. So, you know, you have like the Overall, like you, you do the, what does the net, how does the network work in general, in, in principle? That's the first week. The second week is like how, how can we, talk to like the real Bitcoin peers, like our peers on the network and get information from them? How do we speak their language? And the last one is like, well, how do you kind of secure Bitcoin? How do you make a secure hardware wallet and manage secrets and, and have a little fun along the way? So that's, that's what it is now. You know, make like a little mini wasabi wallet, all these little projects I wanna do, and, you know, over the next couple months we'll figure out how to do all these, but that's where we're at now. And, yeah, the, the, this month I got like twenty five paid students, the course is like eight hundred bucks, which is pretty cheap, actually. Like it's less than it took me to learn to code, the, some of the other like week, you know, Bitcoin bootcamps are like two days and they Kind of perpetual access, so as I add new stuff, you just, you're just a part of the community and you get access to everything I, I add and you can retake the class as many times as you want. So I'm trying to make it a really good deal for the first people 'cause they're like the ones who are helping me bootstrap this, and so I try to make it a really good deal for the early adopters. And yeah, everyone's happy, I give them an option to quit, like I'll refund them at any point if they don't" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:55", "start": 3175.34, "text": "like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:00", "start": 3179.84, "text": "I was gonna ask, I, I do have one actually, one more question. You, you" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "53:03", "start": 3182.73, "text": "were learning, I, I, interacted with you on the internet and you were saying you were kinda interested in learning how to do Python stuff just a little bit." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:09", "start": 3189.15, "text": "Yeah, so, yeah, so I am, actually learning a little bit myself, so I actually want to keep doing it myself. So there you go. actually, the next question I had was around, so this course is mostly in Python, do you use mostly like a Python library or" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "53:30", "start": 3209.88, "text": "Yeah, so that's, that's a great question. the current-- so one distinction is between Bitcoin protocol development and Bitcoin application development. If you're doing Bitcoin protocol development, you're probably going to be contributing to Bitcoin Core, the primary library that is, is, is used to run a Bitcoin node. it's the same code that's, it's, it was inherited from Satoshi. It's like the same code has just been slowly developed over time, and that's written in this language called- C++, which is like a very low level, hyper optimized, really fast language, is, which is why we use it in Bitcoin Core, because it's really, really fast, and we want initial block download to be super fast, as fast as it can be, and so that's, that's why it's a good fit, but it's like It's sort of hard to understand sometimes, and when you look at the code, it looks kinda cryptic. And why I like Bitcoin, or why I like Python, is because you look at the code and it, it reads like a, like an outline does. It's really like easy to look at and kinda understand roughly what it's doing, but it's kinda slow. And so when you're writing like a real protocol, you don't wanna use Python, you wanna use something really fast like, C++. But when you're running, let's say writing an application, for example" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "54:47", "start": 3286.56, "text": "that, that bitnodes.earn.com, I was saying this like crawler that gives you a topology of the network. what are some other examples? Like the, the firmware for a Trezor or the firmware for a Coldcard, every one of these is software written in Python. And so, For, for protocol development, Python isn't sufficient. For application development, Python in many cases is pretty good. And so the idea, the answer there is like, you know, I try to prepare people more to be application developers, 'cause honestly, I'm not even qualified to teach the protocol development. Like, I haven't made any contributions to Bitcoin Core. I honestly don't think I should, 'cause I'm not quite careful enough. Like, I want the people doing that to be just like so paranoid, you know? And that's not me. Like, I am not" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "55:34", "start": 3333.74, "text": "I'm not that paranoid, I'm not that detail oriented, like I like the big picture, I like to do things fast, I like to, you know, slap things together kind of in a hacky way and make progress that way. And so that's perfectly fine, like I'm just not really a protocol developer and that's fine, and I don't need to, do that. And so that's, that's my answer is like, I, I'm focused more on the application development, but, you know, we, we build like a little mini, mini I am the kind of security paranoid type of person that makes a good protocol developer, then by all means, after that, I think you're in a really good position to try to, like, you know, deepen your knowledge of computer science now that you've kind of-- you have this really interesting problem to chew on, right? You're not, you're not just becoming a computer scientist in case it's useful, you will learn computer science because you want to improve the Bitcoin protocol. You have a very specific task in mind, and I think that really helps. And so, you know, if Deeper stuff, but I don't think I'm ever gonna teach that. Like, I think what I would love to see in the future is if someone like, you know, maybe a couple of my students, if they wanna do that, then they go into a chain code residency. That's, like, those guys are actual pro-protocol developers, and they're the ones who should be, who should be teaching, the protocol development. But it's, it's, it's really a niche thing. Like, in the future, you know, they're, you're gonna have a thousand Underneath the internet, there's just a very small group of highly expert people. So, so yeah, that's kind of my answer. Yeah, excellent, excellent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:10", "start": 3429.71, "text": "Okay. Alright, well, I think, that's, they're pretty much the key things that I wanted to hit. How about you just tell the listeners where to find you, Twitter, YouTube, website?" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "57:20", "start": 3439.68, "text": "Yeah, so, if you just search Justin Moon on Twitter, my, my name is Justin Moon with underscores on each side, but if you just search, that, you'll find me. website's justinmoon dot com. On there, you can find some YouTube videos, like, the, the first, basically the first week of my little bootcamp is the videos are free online, which is, you know, like I try to kind of give back and, you know, I understand that not everybody can spend eight hundred bucks, and eventually I wanna do At least now I, I put all the videos up online, so it's like gonna be like six, eight hours of content that's free, and it's really like in-depth stuff, and, you know, Like I don't think any of my videos have a single dislike on Twitter or on, on YouTube, you know, quite a few likes, meant no dislikes, so it's, they're, it's pretty good stuff. And so yeah, you can find that on my website justinmoon dot com. and that's about it, yeah. I mean, I, oh yeah, and the site for BUIDL Bootcamp. Oh yeah, the BUIDL Bootcamp, yeah, just B U I D L Bootcamp, B O O T C A M P," }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "58:26", "start": 3506.41, "text": "biddle yeah, I'd, I'd love to have you in the class next month. I got about fifteen people signed up, it's still three weeks to go, so I think it's gonna be a good group. And, if you join, you're kind of a part of the community forever. you know, over time, I'm gonna try to get some TAs in there to kinda help answer questions and, and kinda, kinda get your, get your kind of, coding journey started." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:50", "start": 3530.19, "text": "So I'm pretty, pretty pumped about it. Yeah, no, Yeah, thanks. Next time I'll let you talk a little" }, { "speaker": "justin_moon", "time": "59:00", "start": 3540.01, "text": "more. I kinda, kinda dominated the, kinda dominated the mic here, but thanks a lot for having me. it's, it's, it's, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll see you on, crypto Twitter. See you online." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:10", "start": 3549.9, "text": "So there you have it, my conversation with Justin Moon. Make sure you check out his Biddle Bootcamp and YouTube channel. Also, just a big thanks to my Patreon supporters, I got a few new supporters recently. My Patreon supporters get access to a private Telegram chat group where like-minded individuals can chat, and also I like to share some inside info such as upcoming guests. If you're interested to join, check out patreon.com/stefanlivera. That's it from me, thanks, and I'll speak to you guys next week." } ] }