{ "episodeId": "SLP365", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "anita_posch": { "name": "Anita Posch", "role": "guest", "tag": "ANITA" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:07", "start": 7.16, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera Podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today, for episode three hundred and sixty-five, Anita Posch joins me on the show. She is a Bitcoin educator, podcaster, and she is the founder of Bitcoin for Fairness. So Anita recently went to Zimbabwe and Zambia, so we talk about that, her experiences there, crypto scammers, as opposed to- Bitcoin education in, the space and Bitcoin software and hardware, as well as the main hurdles to adoption. We also talk about what the government's views on Bitcoin are, as well as peer-to-peer Bitcoin. Now, this show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. I'm working as part of the team at Swan Private. We launched Swan Private because we talked to so many people that had issues with the major exchanges. Some people were having their accounts locked, or customer service couldn't help them, and many couldn't onboard their accounts, particularly entity accounts. They might get stuck in a queue for weeks. weeks or even months, and many people simply wanted to talk to an actual human being who could answer their Bitcoin questions, but they wouldn't get a reply or this just wasn't an option. Swan Private is our one-on-one Bitcoin advisory service for high net worth individuals, as well as entities like companies and businesses who want to buy Bitcoin on their balance sheet. Our team is here to actually support you in your Bitcoin journey, whether that's guidance around self-custody or giving you access to special Swan Private webinars. So if you're interested Go to swanprivate dot com. 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Bitcoin mining is getting bigger and bigger, and so is Compos Mining. Compos is adding over two hundred and eighty megawatts worth of hosting capacity this year alone, with more to come. So on the website, you can select an ASIC mining machine, have that shipped to a vetted facility, and you can select the mining pool, you pay the hosting fees, and of course, you start, you start mining and receiving Sats Now, if you're in the US, you can receive your miner to your home and mine from home also. Don't forget, there's a range of content and educational material over at the website compassmining.io. On to the show with Anita. Anita, welcome to the show!" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "03:04", "start": 184.26, "text": "Hi, Stephan. Thank you very much for the invitation. It's a big honor to be on your show finally." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:09", "start": 189.46, "text": "Yeah, of course. I see you're doing some interesting work and, wanted to chat about your travels and your work in Bitcoin education, as I'm sure you will, be happy to tell us about. So, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about what you've been up to recently?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "03:27", "start": 206.57, "text": "Yeah, I was in Zimbabwe and Zambia with Bitcoin for Fairness, the initiative I founded, to spread knowledge about Bitcoin to the people who need it the most. And I was in Zimbabwe two years ago. I think I was the first podcaster or Bitcoiner to go there to research it and also like research the use of Bitcoin and the state of adoption and the problems that people have faced there and if it's actually really possible to use Bitcoin and if people- really use it. And I wanted to go there again to see what has changed. And in my preparation phase, somebody from Zambia sent me a tweet and said, \"Hey, if you're in Zimbabwe, don't you also want to come to Zambia?\" And then I looked it up on the map and saw it's actually the neighboring country in the north of, Zimbabwe. And I, I went there, yes. And I think it, it was a big success, for me in a way because one of my goals was to set up a bit- Bitcoin only group in, in every country because most of these countries, they are crypto, blockchain, blockchain, crypto, and, a lot of scams are going on and things like that. So I think it was important to-- or my goal is to, to sow the seeds for Bitcoin only adoption in these countries. And, yeah, that's, what I did and what I'm going to do in the next couple of months too." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:53", "start": 292.86, "text": "Excellent. And so I'm curious as well, why Zimbabwe? Is there a particular reason for that particular country?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "04:59", "start": 299.47, "text": "Yeah, one of the reasons is that we are always talking about Bitcoin in Zimbabwe or Venezuela, because those are the countries with the highest inflation, globally, and that Bitcoin would be a great fit for people there to be able to save money to not lose that much value like they do with their, their local currency. Also, you have currency control Roles in both of these countries, and I thought if Bitcoin can make it there, it can make it anywhere, you know, like that in a way, because if, if, if the technology is usable in these hard circumcen-circumstances, let's say it that way, because there are a lot of technical problems still, you know, the internet, is slow, it's very, very, very expensive, there have been internet shutdowns by the government and things like that, and I thought if it's usable there, we can use It's everywhere and it's the base case for using it globally. And other than that, I have to add, I have a friend living in Zimbabwe, and, she helped me very much to set everything up because as a regular, like a tourist, you don't really go to Zimbabwe because it's really difficult to travel, to come around. It's very expensive even for us to rent a car. The streets are, full of potholes. It's very dangerous. There aren't even street signs, you know? And There are no trains or public buses like you, you're used to in Western countries, and so that was also a reason why I went or was able to go to Zimbabwe." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:34", "start": 393.62, "text": "Right, so if I had to summarize, it's that you're saying you see a very strong need for, obviously, Bitcoin, this inflation-resistant, open-source, free money. So I'm also curious as well, because some people might be thinking, \"Well, in a low-income country or low-wealth country, it's difficult to actually save with Bitcoin because you tend to be living very close to your income level, so you're spending a lot of what you're making, and therefore it's hard to save.\" What are your views on that? And And are there still avenues for adoption in Bitcoin use there?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "07:08", "start": 428.12, "text": "Yeah, I mean, it's true, that's really a problem. People are very poor there, so you need to know the average, like, a director of a school or a teacher or a doctor earns about three hundred or three hundred and fifty US dollars a month, and that's not in US dollars, it's in the worthless Zimbabwean dollar. And if you rent a small house, it costs you four hundred USD. So I, I really don't know how people- People make their living there. They are working very, very hard and the-- in the informal sector, because most people don't have a regular job like we know it, you know? They live hand, hand to mouth. They do subsistence farming, I think that's the right word, and live off that. So they live off maybe fifty US dollars a month. And therefore, of course, they need to spend all the money they have just for their basic, living needs. And also, they know how much Their own currency is losing value. So because of the inflation, you buy stuff as soon as you have the money, you buy it. Like a story, for instance, Miss Ora, the headmistress of the school I visited, because we did Bitcoin donation campaigns in the last year so that she can open the school again, she said to me, \"This is the place for ten computers. We have one hundred and twenty students, and we want to have ten computers. So f-- as far now we have one. And I then said, okay, how much is a computer here? And she said, yeah, two hundred fifty US dollars or something. And then I said, okay, I'm like Bitcoin for Fairness is donating now two hundred fifty US dollars in Bitcoin to you. And like two days later, she said to me, here's a picture of the computer I bought. It's a used computer for two hundred fifty US dollars. And I said, what, that, that was fast. And she said, yeah, if you get these things, if you even make it to be able to So she, she went to, to a friend who exchanged Bitcoin to US dollars or to local currency for her, I don't know, and then she bought it immediately. So yes, saving is really a problem there, and it's also not in the minds of people, you know? I also know a guy who is earning Bitcoin for five, six years now with his, online marketing work, but he's always exchanging it, so he's always trading it, and I said to him, \"I mean- I mean, you know how the, the, the value of Bitcoin has been increasing in the last years. Why do you still do that? Yeah, he says it's just like it has to go. I, I have to do this. So, there's a lot of also, in, in general, financial literacy isn't very high. So, and they also don't have the possibility to save at the moment. So, I think Lightning is very important because if you only earn three hundred USD a month, you maybe are able to save two US- dollars, you know? And so, Lightning adoption is very important, I think there also." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:09", "start": 609.12, "text": "I see. And so, as you were mentioning earlier, in other countries or in other places around the world, people aren't very clear, and I think most people aren't very clear on the, the thesis behind Bitcoin, as, say, you and I and the other Bitcoin people are. The average person out there is probably thinking of it like, \"Oh, it's crypto,\" and then they're getting sucked into these random crypto scams because they're into this get rich quick- Mindset, and so I'm curious how you perceived that when you were there in Zimbabwe and in Zambia. Were you seeing that, and then I guess part of your journey or part of what you're trying to do here is try to shift them away from that mindset? Can you tell us a little bit about that mindset and how prevalent it was?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "10:50", "start": 649.65, "text": "Yeah, exactly. That's a, a huge, huge, huge problem for Bitcoin adoption. everybody I met and talked to was asking me, \"Is Bitcoin credible? Isn't it a scam?\" I know someone who was scammed, in- to Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency scam. when I was there, I did a talk in Zambia at the University of Zambia, an introduction to Bitcoin, and the, the next speaker next to me was a guy who shielded Axie Infinity, you know? And then you know how close you are to, to all the scams. And it's really a problem because even people who are sincerely or, or, have the, would say the educ- Patient level to start with Bitcoin or ha-started in the, in the last years, they were turned away because they saw that their friends were scammed. They don't believe in the get rich quick scheme. And there was a guy who said to me, \"You know, I didn't use it, I never tried it because I didn't wanna get scammed.\" And when I told him about that it's an open protocol, there is no company behind it, you don't need to buy a, start a package, you don't need to pre- Bring someone else in, and there is no making a profit of, a hundred percent in three months. And then, you know, it's like eye opening to these people to see that you don't want to sell them something. I spoke with another guy who was scammed five years ago, and he lost, I think, five hundred US dollars, which is a, a huge amount for him. And I, I was telling him all the things about Bitcoin, what it is, and he then in the end said, \"Okay, what are you going to sell?\" Tell me now, and I said nothing. I'm, I'm not selling anything here. I'm just explaining, what Bitcoin is to you. So it's a lot of scams, but not only with crypto. when I was in Zambia, I read a paper headline saying that two hundred people got scammed out of their kwacha. Kwacha is the reg-regional currency, because a, a scheme told them they can, they can double their money in three months. So it happens with all money or financial- Instruments or people who promise other people something. That's the sad truth, and that's the thing why I think it's so important that we really go there in person. I mean, there's a lot of free Bitcoin education online, excellent Bitcoin education, but you can only build trust if you're there or if other people are there, you know? Like, like my intention is to go there to help out where I can and where, where I'm asked to, and then to- To, to build these Bitcoin groups where you have, like, say, ambassadors of Bitcoin or something. I mean, we don't have this formal name, but who are Bitcoin maximalists? We-- I found some in Zimbabwe and in Zambia who are really keen on organizing their own meetups then, but they need a little bit this initialising setup help, you know, to meet each other, because there's a guy, for instance, Alexandria, he's sitting in Bulawayo, he's a Bitcoin maxi, and he felt very alone because he never met Any other Bitcoiners. And when I did the talk in the capital in Harare, he drove six hours by bus to Harare to attend. And I think it's fantastic to see that the, the people are there. They, they only might need some help at the beginning because it's also hard to access hardware wallets or, a Raspberry Pi to, to set up a full node and things like that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:29", "start": 868.55, "text": "Right. And what was the state of smartphone adoption penetration? Because I understand that can also be a thing where maybe somebody's only got a feature phone, then m-might be understandably a bit harder for them to actually have their own Bitcoin keys and hold them in their own wallet." }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "14:45", "start": 884.8, "text": "Yes. I, to be honest, I don't have numbers about that. But, what I see is that a lot of people have smartphones, mostly Android because it's cheaper, and many people also have those old Nokia, phones. And there is a high, very, very high adoption of mobile money in, Zimbabwe, as well as in Zambia. You know, like M-Pesa in Kenya, there are services like that in Zimbabwe and Zambia too. And so people are very used to use, money via text messages, on their phones. And this is also more reliable because if you have an internet shutdown or the internet is expensive, people can't afford- Afford to use the internet, but they still can use their mobile money. But mobile money of course has its disadvantages. It's centralized, sometimes the government says, \"EcoCash, the company, you have to change the way you give out accounts or you have to, freeze accounts,\" and this is happening on a regular basis. And also they are deducting two percent of every transaction, be it a small or a large transaction, via that, mobile- Mobile money as a tax. And so I think that if we had something like text based Lightning or text based Bitcoin, this would be a real, real, real thing that would bring, adoption forward. I think that's really the thing that's needed. And I know there's Telegram with the Telegram Lightning bot and things like that, but people don't use Telegram, they all use WhatsApp and Facebook, and people have so-called internet bundles, so you can only- Only access the internet via WhatsApp or Facebook, for instance. So I'm not really sure if they even can download wallets via Play Store then. So that's really a, a hurdle, for adoption, I believe. So text-based, Bitcoin would be great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:46", "start": 1006.0, "text": "Right. And so, I mean, it might, yeah, that's gonna make it a lot harder, I guess, because if you need a, a wallet, I mean, you're probably operating in a custodial wallet context at that point, and, yeah, it depends On not having internet would just make it extremely difficult, right? I mean, yes, you can in, in more well-planned scenarios, but generally speaking, you will need it. So that's, that was a bit difficult. So out of the people you spoke to, how many of them would have had smartphone internet credit to be able to just download a wallet? And what kind of wallets were you working or teaching?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "17:18", "start": 1037.54, "text": "Yeah, yeah, okay. So the people who came to my events, they all have a smartphone. Most of them also have a laptop, old laptops, old smartphones, but they can So I would say that in the general population also a lot of people, I mean, I was out of town, you know, on the countryside and people have their smartphones because it's, it's also a status symbol there to have one. And many people, you're right, are using exchange wallets, like the blockchain wallet, for instance, is still a thing there, and I tell everyone, please change to another wallet, yeah? So my way to, to explain or to recommend wallets is that I- I wanted to recommend a wallet that can do Lightning and Bitcoin. There you have the blue wallet and the Moon wallet, and actually I prefer the Moon wallet for these kind of people because they are complete newbies. How do you explain the difference between Bitcoin and Lightning now, yeah? So for them, it would be great. And also with the blue wallet, it's better from that point that I'm always telling people write down your seed, and the Moon wallet doesn't give you the standard seed. So I rather recommend- The blue wallet, but then you have Bitcoin and a Lightning wallet in the blue to wallet. And how do you get Lightning easily into Bitcoin now? Yeah? So it's one of those two wallets in most cases. The Moon wallet additionally has the problem that the first step you need to verify basically the connection to get your passport, password back, via email. And many people don't have email in these countries, so they couldn't use the Moon wallet. And, yeah, but the blue wallet Wallet then is, in Lightning, it's custodial. It's also something you don't really want for that people in this adverse, let's say, censorship, in these countries where censor- censorship is happening very often, let's say it that way. And yeah, and if, if people are only into using Bitcoin on chain, then it would be the Green Wallet that I'm recommending. And sometimes, you know, people still want to have altcoins. A lot of people want to use alt- Coins, then I'm recommending the H wallet in that case. So that's basically, these are my recommendations and always trying to tell them self-custody your coins, otherwise your government might come and take it, and that's a thing that Zimbabweans understand, very well immediately basically because their government has taken their money a lot of times." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:53", "start": 1192.74, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Have you thought about upgrading to multi-signature with Unchained Capital? Unchained Capital have collaborative custody so you can bring two hardware wallets and hold those in two separate locations and Unchained can be the third key. This is a great way to remove single points of failure from your Bitcoin security setup and give yourself that additional peace of mind. So with Unchained Capital, they have a concierge onboarding program which you can use to pay upfront, have some hardware wallets sent to you, have a video call to teach you how to use That and create your vault and deposit a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in your vault to get you started. There's also some ongoing support and education that Unchained provide, so if you're interested, go and sign up. It's Unchained dot com, select the Concierge onboarding program, use code Livera for a discount. And if it's Bitcoin hardware wallets you're looking for, my favorite is the Coldcard. You can get this at coinkite dot com. They have a range of features on this device. It's like a little calculator sized device that you can use to generate your Bitcoin private keys and your seed words, and you can then use it to sign Bitcoin transactions. It's got a range of features, so for example, you can display the QR code for your addresses on the device. You can also use the address explorer to check that you really hold the keys for that receiving address. So that website That is coinkite dot com, and you can also get your coldcard and also other gear like your metal seed plate backup as well. And finally, brains. Brains are a Bitcoin mining company through and through. They've got a range of products, most notably Brains OS Plus. This is firmware that you can install on your ASIC machine. It has the feature of auto-tuning and optimizing miner performance so that you get more hash rate for your electricity bill. So go to the brains dot com website and check out if you have the supported models that are allowed or permitted for you to use. With Brains OS Plus. Also on the website is a really cool Insights dashboard that the Brains team have put together. You can see mining profitability calculators, all kinds of really cool and interesting mining statistics, so it's a really great place to go if you're looking at doing some of the sums yourself to figure out and estimate your own mining profitability. So you can go, go and see that over at brains dot com, that website is Brains with two eyes. And now back to the show with Anita. And on the topic of government and censorship resistance and the legal environment, what is the prevailing attitude that you saw, at least from the government, in terms of Bitcoin? What was their Bitcoin policy, if they had one?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "22:22", "start": 1341.72, "text": "Okay, so there is basically not really a Bitcoin policy. There's no regulation or something, which I think is a good thing, actually, but many think-- people think it's a bad thing. So in 2017, for instance, 2016, 2017- I mean, there was a Bitcoin exchange in Zimbabwe. They even had a Bitcoin ATM in the center of Harare where you could sell and buy Bitcoin for US dollars. But in twenty seventeen, eighteen, the government cracked down and all of the, I think all of the founders of the exchange went abroad, and there is no exchange in Zimbabwe. And the idea of the government or what they say is, \"We embrace blockchain, blockchain is good, but Bitcoin...\" Coin and cryptocurrencies, we want to keep that offshore. That's really something I think the finance, finance minister said last year. We don't want Bitcoin here. And of course, they don't want Bitcoin here because it gives people control over their money and control of finances of money in Zimbabwe is very much in the hands of the government, just as an example. If you're a business doing import exports and, you need US dollars to do that That you have to apply at the central bank, and there's a, an auction every week where then the, the rate between Bitcoin and, sorry, US dollars and Zimbabwean dollars is fixed. And then, those companies who said like, \"I need maybe a hundred thousand US dollars to buy goods from abroad,\" the central bank then grants you these, but you don't get it. So basically, the central bank is then paying your bill in the other coun- country, you know, so, so the central bank controls all relationships that companies, from Zimbabwe have. So that's the, the, their stance in a way, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:17", "start": 1457.42, "text": "Yeah, so that makes it quite difficult then for import and export businesses, which in turn makes it difficult for people inside the country to run their own business or if you want particular products and services from outside the country. And of course, there's an obvious Bitcoin use case here, but the challenge then is how do you get Bitcoin? And I think it also comes down to being able to earn- Bitcoin as well. So if maybe if you're a high tech, high skill worker in Zimbabwe or Zambia, you can probably figure it out and get paid from outside, but I think the question then is how accessible is that and how could it be improved in terms of accessibility there?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "24:54", "start": 1493.54, "text": "Yeah, I, I think, I think the accessibility is, is good. I mean, as like one example, this online marketer, he's earning his money for a few years now, via Bitcoin. So all the possibilities We now also have, to earn Bitcoin or earn satoshis via podcasting, via video streaming, via blogging and things like that. I'm always sharing that knowledge in my talks, but the problem is that most people have no, basic idea how Bitcoin works or what, what the setup needs to be, so they want to go from zero to podcasting and streaming money, you know? And I think that's a, a long stretch. So I think there, there's first a need for- For basic Bitcoin education, and then on top of that, you can do that. so if it's going to be easier and easier to adopt these, technologies like earning Bitcoin from abroad, then more and more people will use it because, I mean, the average African person is twenty years of age, they are very keen on learning and they know they have to do something online because there are no jobs in their countries. so I think there, there will be a huge wave of, of adoption coming." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:08", "start": 1567.81, "text": "So in terms of opportunities to find Bitcoin work online, do you see any opportunities there? I mean, I know there's platforms, things like Fiverr and Upwork and things like that, and even in the Bitcoin world, I know there's one called StackWorks as an example, and there might be some more coming. Do you see any projects like that that would really have a high leverage or high impact in country, in, countries like Zimbabwe and Zambia?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "26:33", "start": 1592.83, "text": "Yeah, I mean, for instance, podcasting two point oh is definitely a thing that's interesting or, selling digital goods, via a P-P-T-C pay server, for instance. So, but I think the first step is to get full nodes into the country. So that's actually our next goal, is to do a donation campaign, that people in Zimbabwe and South Africa or Zambia are able to set up, full nodes and so that we- Also, share the knowledge with the people who are developers or so interested in, in Bitcoin that they want to learn everything, that we share our knowledge, go there and, show them how to set up, a node and to run it together with BTC Pay server so that they are their own bank, and those people can then spread the, the knowledge and, adoption to their peers. And that's basically, I think, the point where, where a little bit of help from us is needed because for, for one, for instance, you can't get hardware wallets in Zimbabwe and Zambia. Nobody I met, except for people who are traveling a lot, and have the money, had a hardware wallet. So, we have a cooperation with Trezor and brought some Model Ones to these countries to the people. I'm going to South Africa in May, and I'm going to visit Bitcoin EKASI, which is a, a community project you may have heard of. They are like Bitcoin Beach. Bitcoin Beach is They are, yeah, they're called the model, yes. And, so they already have six, or I don't know how many vendors, so they wanna set up a circular economy, and they also don't have hardware wallets. And the organizer said to me it would be fantastic to get a full node and to have our own hardware wallets to secure the money, because like the Bitcoin Beach wallet, for instance, is a great tool, but you need developers who know what they're doing with it. So people like me- me, who are a little bit technical but not enough, I couldn't run the Bitcoin Beach wallet for a community like with, I don't know, five hundred people, you know? And that's the same in Bitcoin Akazi, for instance. many of those community builders, they also just learned about Bitcoin, they're also middle in, in, in, in the middle of learning how to use wallets, how to exchange Bitcoin to South African Rand, because everybody needs, to be honest To need to, if you need to buy something, people want the local currency or US dollars still, yeah? And so I think adoption is, is very, very early, and so the knowledge, that we, we have to share is, is a very basic one. And, but then I think if, if this base, maybe base layer in a way of, of knowledge is built, I think then it can go very fast." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:28", "start": 1767.98, "text": "Okay, so I think there's a few things there. With hardware, it may also be about getting and using low-cost devices. So as an example, CoinKite, they are coming out with Sats Card and TapSigner, and these are more like NFC cards that you can use, and this might be like a very cheaper, low-cost way of getting kind of hardware wallets. Obviously not as secure as a full-fledged hardware wallet, but still usable, and maybe that's an example there. But it, it is interesting, you, the, attempt to- Model Bitcoin Beach and put that out into other countries, and of course, hey, I'd love to see it. I, I think with the Bitcoin Beach model, as I understand, there was a donor behind that who s-helped seed some funds into that initial community. So do you see that like that would also be required then in the case of Bitcoin Akashi and, and other project people using that model?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "30:18", "start": 1818.27, "text": "Yeah, I think definitely there needs to be a little bit of help. Like, I, I don't, I'm not sure if it needs to be a big donation or something like that, setting them up with the technical infrastructure, you know, sharing infographics, educational material also for children and, in a way that people are, are understand, because, you know, education levels aren't very high. so I'm working on getting, infographics done of my book, so, because the, the book itself is, is in a way too big, for people to, to read all of that, you know? So to show them- them the basic security concepts, how to use, Bitcoin safely and how to store it safely in, in easy-to-read image material, you know? So I think for these things, there is definitely money needed, and I know that Bitcoiners are very generous in that sense, and that's also my, my goal or my work is to find donors, for, for Bitcoin for Fairness so that we can go there and share the resources, with the people on the ground." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:27", "start": 1887.16, "text": "In terms of on the ground, I'm also curious if you have any thoughts or insights to share from a peer-to-peer perspective. For example, if people want to trade Bitcoin for cash or use, say, Bitcoin to get vouchers, you know, like a bit refill or a coin cards, what kind of options are there for, for those peer-to-peer users and peer-to-peer exchange?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "31:49", "start": 1908.6, "text": "Yes, I think, the, the, the great thing about the not, like You know, Zimbabwe is also sanctioned, so most Zimbabweans, they can't go to an exchange, an international exchange, because as soon as they enter their address, where they live, they can't use it anymore. So they are actually there's the need to go peer-to-peer. in Zambia, there is now the first, Bitcoin exchange, it's the Yellow Card, but other than that, you have a lot of peer-to-peer groups, but just most of them are crypto, and it's very easy actually to exchange Exchange Bitcoin to US dollars or local currency. I've done it in both countries. Of course, you, you need to know about these groups. And for instance, in Zambia, I exchanged, Bitcoin to kwacha, the regional currency, and in a, in a WhatsApp group, and the, a guy was doing human escrow for me in a way. So he lent it, his trust to the guy who exchanged the money then, and it went very fast, and it's the same in Zim- Zimbabwe, there's really not a problem to exchange Bitcoin to, other currencies because people want Bitcoin. So there is a lot of peer-to-peer exchange going on, and it's also a mirror of, like, say, society traditions. Like, you have a lot of community feeling there. It's not so much this self-sovereign, I'm independent person, it's more how can I help the community? so I'm always also branding Bitcoin as a community Community money in that sense. And so I think one of my hashtags is keep the unbanked, unbanked, because, yeah, as soon as you start with all those exchanges, people have their money in the exchange wallet and they are dependent again and things like that. So I really welcome the fact that there are no exchanges or that it's hard to access, because as I said, there are also other options like you, you said the Satscard or, for instance, there's Azteco. you can buy Atzeco vouchers in South Africa in many shops. You don't need to know anything about Bitcoin, you just go in there and say, \"I want a voucher for twenty US dollars in Bitcoin.\" Then you send the, the voucher code to your family in Zimbabwe and they can redeem Bitcoin over the Atzeco website directly into their wallet. It's not complicated. Or there are people who are playing games on Thunder Games or on CBD. They earn satoshis with it, and with that satoshis they go to Bitrefill and top up their phones for it. So there are a lot of possibilities already, and I'm sure that those, these will grow in the future." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:38", "start": 2077.83, "text": "And so, in terms of the peer-to-peer trade aspect, as you mentioned, it sounds like it's mainly done through WhatsApp groups, and there is a little bit of, kind of a web of trust basically of maybe certain individuals who, I guess, sponsor you in, from a trust point of view and say, \"Oh, this person is legit, you can trade with them,\" and then people are able to trade in that way, right?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "35:01", "start": 2100.83, "text": "The, the, the funny thing or weird thing is then there are also peer-to-peer groups like WhatsApp groups where you then have You have to identify yourself. So that's how they keep scams out, yeah? So you really have to go to this person and show your ID, and then you're added to the group, which is also-- it's in, in, in one way, it's a good protection against scams, but in the other, on the other hand, you then, have to KYC yourself basically. But I think it also works like, if-- as you say, from person to person, like saying, \"That's my brother, or my cousin, you can trust him,\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:38", "start": 2137.51, "text": "way to build the peer-to-peer aspect of this. And so I'm curious as well, then, is there like a discussion that goes on around like a premium? Like, is it seen like, \"Oh, this is a, a premium to do the exchange,\" or is it more like a maker-taker model, right? The person who is there being the market maker, they are the one who get the premium, and the taker, who is taking the offer, they're the paying the premium. How, how does that work?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "36:00", "start": 2159.57, "text": "Actually, actually, I didn't have to pay a premium." }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "36:08", "start": 2167.57, "text": "In the blue wallet or in the, in, in the green wallet or something like that. So there was no price to pay then, so it was just like a peer-to-peer exchange without taking a fee." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:20", "start": 2179.5, "text": "Right, yeah. Because I, I guess at, at some level, if somebody's doing it, and I'm curious as well, are the people doing that doing it professionally or is it just like a side thing for them?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "36:29", "start": 2188.97, "text": "you, you can't really say in most, I, I know that there are a lot of people who doing it also on a professional basis. I mean, And I know them, you know, and they are doing it as a side gig, and also in Zimbabwe, you don't wanna be known as such, you know, because actually it's not allowed what they are doing is, basically, yeah, being money dealers, and that's not a thing that the government wants to see. So, everything is very secretive, yeah. You, you, you, you, you have to trust the other person to, on the one hand, to not get scammed, and on the other hand, that you don't all, There's also one thing I, I need to mention. When I'm interviewing people there, I'm always asking, \"What can we talk about? What can we not talk about?\" And most times, people tell me, \"Please don't talk about the government.\" So there's no free speech in these countries." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:23", "start": 2243.0, "text": "Yeah, that's-- I mean, it's a, it's a common thing that we're seeing around the world, and hopefully, w- we'll see more and more people who just use Bitcoin in their own way without having that interference, let's say. So what do you see as Hurdles then to further adoption, is it mainly the education part, is it mainly the tools? What, what would you say?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "37:45", "start": 2265.2, "text": "It's the education part, I think so. The first thing is that we need to get rid of that notion that Bitcoin is a scam. So educate people about it, that it's an internet protocol, it's a technology like the internet. But on the other hand, you know, in many African countries, people are very-- Do you say \"very\" against the internet? So it's a Western thing for them. They also didn't trust, the internet Internet, so why should they then now trust an internet technology that has to do with money where many people, in their surroundings have been scammed already? So, yeah, so financial literacy is, also very important, like not w-what is a scam, yeah? So, so how, how can you detect what a scam is? Then other hurdles that we didn't speak about, the internet cuts, I think I said that already. Yeah, I also heard people saying to me Bitcoin feels like luxury, you know, because, you need a smartphone or you need a laptop, you need a hardware wallet maybe, and then many people still also-- it's very common to think that you can't afford a Bitcoin because it's forty thousand US dollars. So, you know, just this basic fact that you can-- can buy a fraction of a Bitcoin, is also not very well known. And then there's also this, thing that people want exchanges, yeah? I think that's the only thing where they- Think they can get Bitcoin, and then they say, \"So there's no exchange in Zimbabwe, so I can't use it.\" so again, we're falling back to education. But as I said, I think, it can go very fast then. So if the first people are using Bitcoin or have been using it, they will tell the others. And, if you make positive experiences with it, you will tell everyone because it's just a superior technology, it's a superior money for people there. And it also gives them, gives them access to, to the whole world in a way, you know? At the moment, you can't send money from Zimbabwe to Kenya easily, for instance. It's just not possible. people don't trust the banks, banking system is completely broken, and so I think there's a lot of potential too, although we have those hurdles." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:58", "start": 2398.21, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about Bitcoin for Fairness. What is, what is it, and, what should people look out for?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "40:05", "start": 2405.06, "text": "Yeah, I mean, it came out, out of the work I've been doing in the last years, also in my podcast, I had a focus always on African countries and Bitcoin where it's needed the most. And then I thought I would like to broaden that, you know, to Bitcoin for Fairness is an initiative that wants to be a platform so more and more people who are interested in, in the work I'm doing and who Who, who think that this is important, they can join and they can help. For instance, it's also-- the idea is to build a bridge between Western countries where we are far, more far, I would say, into adoption and, and we, we have the tools that we connect with people in, in the continent and also in Latin America who, as I said before, feel very alone most of the times and, to also give them access to the technology we have. And- And the great thing is also that, as I said before, we were able to set up a Bitcoin only group in Zimbabwe and Zambia, and also in both countries, I now have, Bitcoin for Fairness, has writers, you know, editors, so people who, will write stories about their Bitcoin journey in their words, in their situation, which I find is very interesting, for the general Bitcoin public, let's say that way. way to see Bitcoin in action, or people can also tell us what, what are they struggling with, what are the problems. And we, we pay those editors, for their work. So actually, we're also creating jobs, Bitcoin jobs, in these countries. And that's what, I wanna do also, in, in the course of this year, like in May, I'm going to South Africa, as I said before. And then, I'm not sure if I can make it to Nigeria this year, but, my book is- At the moment, is being translated into three Nigerian languages, which I never heard of, to be honest, Igbohausa and Yoruba, and I googled it and I saw that each of these languages is spoken by twenty million people, so it's huge. And, therefore, I might also go to Nigeria this year. And in, in autumn and winter, I want to go to, Latin American countries, maybe- Venezuela, Brazil, because my book is also being, translated to Portuguese at the moment, because Brazil is huge, and there's, I think, also a lot of, need for Bitcoin there. And so, yeah, that's basically what Bitcoin for Fairness is doing and reporting about, my trips from the ground and connecting people. Yeah. So because, as I said before, I think it's important that we show our faces there and help where we can. And where people are open to it, and that's what we are want to do, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:04", "start": 2583.64, "text": "Excellent. Well, yeah, I think it's some great insights there for listeners who wanted to hear a little bit more like what it's like on the ground. so for anyone who wants to find you online, what's the best place?" }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "43:15", "start": 2595.42, "text": "Okay, the Bitcoin for Fairness website is at b f f b t c dot org, like org. That's the place where also the, the writers from Africa are writing. And then best is actually to follow me on Twitter because I, I do the most updates, that's, Twitter and Anita Posch in one word. And also my newsletter is a good, resource because then I send out, if there are new videos and things like that, it's anita dot link slash newsletter." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:46", "start": 2626.49, "text": "Okay, fantastic. So, so that'll all be in the show notes, guys, and Anita, thanks for joining me today." }, { "speaker": "anita_posch", "time": "43:52", "start": 2632.47, "text": "Thank you very much for the invitation, Stefan. Bye." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:55", "start": 2635.49, "text": "I hope you enjoyed the show, and if you did, make sure you leave a review so that other people can also find the show. Get the show notes at stephanlivera dot com, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }