{ "episodeId": "SLP371", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "max_keiser": { "name": "Max Keiser", "role": "guest", "tag": "MAX" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.49, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, The Show About Bitcoin. Today, for episode three hundred and seventy-one, my guest is the legendary Max Keiser. He's a bitcoiner, financial broadcaster, one of the earliest in the game talking about bitcoin. He's also an investor and writer in the space. And Max joins me on the show to talk about his adventures in El Salvador, as well as investing for hyperbitcoinisation. Hyperbitcoinisation with the new Elzante Capital. So we talk about a range of things, Bitcoin education, Bitcoin gaming, thoughts on nation state adoption. I'm sure you'll enjoy this chat with Max Keiser. SLP is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Our mission at Swan is to create ten million new Bitcoiners. So this isn't just people who are stacking sats, but people who really understand the importance of Bitcoin, and education is so important to accomplishing this mission. So with Swan Bitcoin, there is now the Swan Bitcoin cannon. This is a series of different rabbit holes by different people. We've got one from Lynn Alden, Matt Odell, James and Loeb, Guy Swan, I've got one. These are different rabbit holes and pathways to learning about Bitcoin, so we hope the Canon will be a collaborative effort to make it easier to share Bitcoin education with the world. So go take a look and share it with your family and friends. That website is swan dot com slash c a n o n. This show is also brought to you by Brain, they are producing Bitcoin mining software and products in the mining industry, and I just recently had You've gotta check that episode out and check out their Insights dashboard. It's a great way to see the profitability of different machines as well as incorporate different assumptions and estimates of what's going on in the Bitcoin mining space. Brains have also recently launched Brains Farm Proxy. This is a single app that allows miners to configure parallel usage of multiple pools, reduce data loads, designate backup pools, and you can control your pool operations more easily with the dashboard. Also, if you're using Slush Pool, the Farm Proxy allows you to use encrypted messaging that Prevents hash rate hijacking and secures your communication between the pool and the miner. So go to brains dot com, that's b r a i i n s dot com. Do you ever lie at night and worry about the security and safety of your Bitcoin? Well, Unchained Capital can help you with multi-signature. With multi-signature, you can remove single points of failure in your Bitcoin security setup. This can give you that peace of mind because you know that even if you make one mistake, you haven't necessarily lost all your coins. Don't leave yourself exposed to a Bitcoin custodian or Single signature hardware wallet, you might really wanna think about removing single points of failure with Unchained Capital, you can use the Consejo onboarding program, you can pay upfront, they'll ship you the hardware wallets, they'll do a call with you and teach you how to do this, even if you've never held your private keys before. There's also some ongoing education and support, and Unchained Capital also offer loans and other products that you can use alongside your vault. So that website is Unchained dot com. And now onto the show with Max. Max, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "03:02", "start": 181.64, "text": "Alright, great to be here finally. Great to see you, and, let's get it on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:07", "start": 186.73, "text": "Right. Yeah, I mean, you have been one of the longest time people talking about Bitcoin, especially on the platform that you have with the various shows and material that you've been putting out there, and, you also have quite publicly made the move to El Salvador, which is great, and I obviously wanna get into Some of that, maybe you wanna just start and tell us a little bit about your decision to go and set up in El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "03:36", "start": 216.12, "text": "Right, well, when President, Bukele made Bitcoin legal tender, you know, as you point out, we've been into Bitcoin since twenty eleven. we first started recommending it when it was a dollar, and so we've been tracking this industry now quite closely for a long time, and it was always some speculation about which country would be the first country to make Bitcoin legal tender in El Salvador Was that country, and so I felt it was incumbent upon me and Stacey to go there, to move there, to be a part of this revolution, to be in a country where Bitcoin is legal tender. That this is the frontier at the moment, and we'd like to be always at the, at the bleeding edge of Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:19", "start": 259.29, "text": "That's fantastic. And so from your experience just going around the country, obviously San Salvador is the capital, probably the more well-developed area, and then El Zonte is where the, is really the Bitcoin And capital, as it were. So can you tell us a little bit about your experiences there, just around town and around the country, how you're finding the Bitcoin adoption?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "04:39", "start": 278.69, "text": "Right, as you point out, El Zante or Bitcoin Beach is, ground zero for Bitcoin adoption and hyperbitcoinization. So people are being paid in Bitcoin, they're using Bitcoin, they're saving in Bitcoin. So Bitcoin is becoming a unit of account, it's becoming, really the form of money for that town and nearby towns. Sounds. San Salvador, the capital, a lot of Bitcoin going on as well, around the country. If you look at a heat map, Bitcoin wallets, you see high concentration in El Zonte, you see concentration in San Salvador, and then you start to see it, around the country popping up every single day. So awareness of Bitcoin is extremely high. It's on the front page of the newspaper often. It's being talked about, by the president often. we talk about it on our media outlets, a lot, and so- Awareness is there, adoption is definitely, in towns like El Zante, almost ubiquitous, and so it's spreading out to other areas of the country from there. So to kind of really follow up on what's happening, you know, we, we've decided to launch a new VC fund, El Zante Capital. So this is my third Bitcoin related VC fund. Simon Dixon and I started Bitcoin Capital, a, a VC fund back in twenty thirteen, which Which was really the first dedicated venture capital fund at the time, and we, started that in twenty thirteen with an investment in BitPay, which was at that time the very first company really to be launched in the Bitcoin space. And, then I also started Heisenberg Capital, which has been making Bitcoin investments as well, like in Casa and Swan Bitcoin. but Elzante Capital will be really focused on Bitcoin, hyperbitcoinization as we see it in El Salvador, as well as Bitcoin maximalism. So I think Bitcoin maximalism is coming into its own now. People are understanding more about what that means, and I think, I'm pushing for El Zante and, El Salvador to get more formally, more formal recognition of Bitcoin maximalism." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:50", "start": 409.99, "text": "That's awesome. And so from a maximalism point of view, I definitely wanna ask you your views there. I think there are perhaps different views in the community out there, right? So some people have this idea Of, okay, it's monetary maximalism, it's Bitcoin is gonna be the money of the world, and then there's maybe platform maximalism that people should be trying to build on top of Bitcoin as a platform. What's your view on maximalism? What does it mean to you?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "07:11", "start": 430.95, "text": "Well, Bitcoin has demonstrated that it's the only truly decentralized, monetary network in the world. So everything else, whether it's fiat money, CBDCs, gold, or altcoins, are all either absolutely or relatively centralized as compared to Bitcoin. And decentralization is the, the unique quality that makes Bitcoin revolutionary, 'cause it exists outside of any central control, it exists outside of any state control, of any group or corporate control. Control and therefore it exists in as pure money, it's virtually perfect money, where the transaction value of Bitcoin is determined entirely by the market, so to speak. So, this is unique, this doesn't exist anywhere else. And as such, it's pulling away from, the rest of any competitor or any system that suggests that it might compete with Bitcoin. Clearly, there's gonna be a lot of losers, Stefan, you've got the- The fiat money world is in total chaos. the dollar and the euro are really suffering epoch-defining collapses at the moment. I, I'm sure I'm not, telling any secrets here. It's pretty obvious what's going on in the fiat money world. In gold, as you see, there's no real price discovery in gold. It's manipulated, it's centralized to a large degree in vast storehouses of central banks and other players. Gold isn't decentralized, really when you compare it to Bitcoin. And in, in the alt- Altcoin market, you know, it's clearly not, decentralized. You've got plenty of attack vectors in the altcoin market. The, the centralization takes many forms. You know, either the code base has changed often or you've got, you know, it's r- it's, it's driven by a cult of personality. It, it's, it's just many forms of centralization you see in the altcoin space. none are truly, decentralized. And just as an interesting side point- You know, I saw a headline just cross the last couple of days that the EU has come out and said we need to attack Bitcoin and support Ethereum. I mean, you know, Ethereum is kind of the most, second most well known in this space, and it's clearly not decentralized, it's clearly not money, it's clearly an exit scam, and it's clearly the really the, the pet of the central bankers around the world, and it should be clear at this point, as Michael Saylor said in a, in a Real Vision interview last year. Altcoins, including Ethereum, you, you'd have to put, say that they're both unethical and immoral to support these projects. It goes beyond just failed projects, it's actually immoral to support them. and I think people need to realize that, that when they support these altcoins, including Ethereum, they're really acting in an unethical, immoral way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:01", "start": 600.53, "text": "Right. And I, I'm with you on this idea that there is a moral question around these things, and from a Bitcoin point of view, we see it as we're actually gonna make the world a better place, and I think- That's an important point. So from your point of view on the positive side for Bitcoin, what kind of sociological changes do you see coming in a hyperbitcoinized world?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "10:21", "start": 621.26, "text": "There's a few to talk about. Some of them are in a very practical way, and some of them are more in a philosophical way. You know, let me talk about something kind of more philosophical to kick this off. So because one of the attributes of Bitcoin is that it's unconfiscatable, that means that for somebody to build up a Bitcoin- position. They can't rely on the old tried and true method of coercion or violence, right? Typically, the way empires are built or the way wealth is created is through violence and war. Countries or corporations. One of the side issues being discussed, of course, with El Salvador is that it's been the victim of American violence and CIA violence for decades because they are stealing the resources of that country and all over Central America. But this isn't unique unique to El Salvador or Central America, the US is doing this all over the world. And, and so violence and war are part and parcel with fiat money. So fiat money is something you can print really without, constraint to fund your violence and your war. And with Bitcoin, because it's unconfiscatable, to accumulate more Bitcoin, you have to come to the market with something other than violence and coercion. You have to have something that people wanna trade with you for Bitcoin. So it's inherently anti- War and anti-violence, because of this nature of being unconfiscatable. It's the, it's the only un-unconfiscatable wealth we've ever had as, as humans. You know, when, when the book came out, Bitcoin and Black America, by Isaiah Jackson, he points out in the first chapter that he heard about Bitcoin on my show, Kaiser Report, back in the early twenty twelve period, and immediately recognized that this is a great benefit to the black community in America, because the black community in America has- Has over years, almost by definition, they've had their wealth confiscated. You know, this is one of the problems in, in the black community, and he's, he saw this as unconfiscatable wealth, and that's why adoption in America by the black community is extraordinarily high. I think it's the highest group in America is black American, adoption of Bitcoin for one of the, one of the simple reasons that, you know, it's unconfiscatable wealth. So that's, that's something new, for black America. They, they actually can accumulate wealth now without Them. But that's true all over the world. So philosophically, Bitcoin promotes war, it promotes peace, it promotes, altruism in a lot of ways, and so philosophically, it changes the world. when people talk about Bitcoin using a lot of energy, you know, the answer to that is compared to what? You know, the fiat money world because it supports war, because it supports the prison industrial complex, because it supports hatred, and it supports fraud and corruption and media corruption. I don't- Obviously, the carbon footprint of fiat money is almost infinitely higher than Bitcoin. it's an absurdly high a amount of carbon emissions associated with fiat money. By eliminating fiat money, carbon emissions would drop Enormously, you know, seventy, eighty percent, and almost immediately, because you're getting rid of the worst carbon offenders in the world, the Pentagon, the war machine, the fraud, the corruption, the waste. So philosophically, those are some of the high level, top line changes that Bitcoin can bring about once a global Bitcoin standard comes in, hyperbitcoinization comes in, and I think we see it in, in El Salvador. You know, I always say that you don't change Bitcoin, Bitcoin changes you, and after less than a year After making Bitcoin legal tender, the government, when threatened with another violent attack by gangs, their response was, \"You know what? We're imbued with the ethos of Bitcoin, and we are intolerant of this violence.\" So the president's gone on a campaign now to, rid the country of this gang violence, which, by the way, is exported to El Salvador from the United States. So it's a-- So they're cleaning up America's trash effectively, and they're doing so very effec- Effectively, because Bitcoin changes the way you think. You become intolerant of violence, you become intolerant of war, because you want to live a Bitcoin life, and this playing out right now in El Salvador. If other countries and when other countries adopt Bitcoin as legal tender, they will also follow what El Salvador is doing and become intolerant of violence and intolerant of war. That's why it'd be great if America became a Bitcoin standard, because they would stop their, wars of, of convenience. In various countries and focus on being better global citizens at home. And what's required for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:02", "start": 901.84, "text": "more people to go on this journey of orange peeling, taking the, taking the orange pill? Is it an education piece? Is it just time? Is it technology? Is it the right kinds of investments? What's, what, what do you think is going to be important for that?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "15:17", "start": 916.67, "text": "Well, there's two factors that drive adoption. One is continued, continued collapse of the banking world and the, the way the- Inflating all the fiat money is driving a need for Bitcoin. So in countries where you see a lot of inflation, a lot of money printing, like Central America and South America, Bitcoin is already making huge inroads. And then in countries where banks are precarious or central banks are failing, like in Lebanon or a couple of others, the Bitcoin awareness and adoption is moving forward. So just the collapse of the status quo is driving adoption into Bitcoin. And then the other factor that drives adoption Option is really the way that Bitcoin almost is a way to hack its way into human nature by tickling the greed gene. You know, when, when your neighbor starts getting wealthy with Bitcoin, you wanna find out more about Bitcoin And the price, you know, the number go up technology that's built into the protocol means a lot of people become envious of their neighbors and friends and family be getting rich on Bitcoin, and they start to check out Bitcoin. So the FOMO aspect to it, clearly you see that in corporate America with Michael Saylor jumping in, and you know, you've got other corporations looking at his balance sheet and seeing what's happening over there and saying, \"Hey, you know, this is, something we gotta get into. We can't let this guy get super rich, and we wanna, Jump into. So it's FOMO plus bank failure equal Bitcoin adoption? You know, how soon does that take place? Because it's a technology, it's a messaging technology, and it's going through what you could call exponential growth, we are shortly gonna be at that moment when you'll see what we saw on the Internet days back in nineteen ninety-seven, where it went from a hundred and fifty million users and people in the New York Times were writing about maybe the Internet's a fad and it'll disappear. Suddenly becoming ubiquitous. So I think, similarly with Bitcoin, you've got roughly hundred and fifty, hundred, two hundred million users, we're entering a phase now, where you'll suddenly see one to two billion users will, will be talked about as the current market for Bitcoin and driven again by those two major pillars of adoption, bank and fiat failure plus FOMO. And on that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:37", "start": 1057.18, "text": "rapid adoption, does it concern you that it will often start as a custodial adoption, that there are many services who will start as a custodian, or do you, do you believe that there's a pathway viable, a viable pathway for people to graduate to the full self-sovereign, or at least more self-sovereign version of using Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "17:57", "start": 1076.56, "text": "yeah, I think that that's where the community comes in, because the Bitcoin maximalist community is a hardcore community, and they're constantly pushing self-sovereignty, and as people go on their Bitcoin journey, and they realize the difference between this option that you can have for- For self custody, they will gravitate toward it. So it's, I think that's where the community is, crucial in that it defines more precisely what the Bitcoin life is, people who live the Bitcoin life. So when we're in El Salvador, we try to, you know, live the Bitcoin life. what does this mean? That means self sovereignty, that means living in a big-- country with Bitcoin as legal tender, it means altruism, it means, you know, moral loving and caring, less violence and hatred. So that's where the, that's where the community comes in. The community is great at defining what that means. So I think that that's just part of the journey that people, that people take. Ultimately, they end up in a place of self-sovereignty. Fantastic. And so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:58", "start": 1137.8, "text": "in terms of, when you talk to people on the ground in El Salvador, what's the education there like? as I understand, maybe in the earlier days, people might have thought of it like Chivo, which is the government wallet, and Bitcoin, they might have thought of them as the same thing. Same thing, but obviously over time, people are gonna learn, people are gonna get more accustomed to these things, and then it might grow from that. So has that been your experience that you've seen?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "19:23", "start": 1162.7, "text": "Right. You know, going back to the '90s, Stefan, during when I had a, an internet company back in the '90s, you know, people thought AOL was the internet. they, they thought, \"Oh, that's the internet, AOL.\" There's a lot of people who think Facebook is the internet. So, at the moment, people aren Is the underlying Bitcoin protocol and what are the things that sit on top of the protocol? So I think again, we're at that moment of transition where people suddenly realize, hey, you know what? There's this underlying technology, et cetera, and it does a lot of different things. So again, using the '90s as a, as a proxy for where we are now, I think that's kind of the transition we're making. People w-who would, their first experience would be through Cheevo Wallet would make that confusing point, but similarly what they did in the '9 We transition to a greater awareness and a deeper understanding, as we saw with the internet. So with Elzante Capital, which is our, our VC fund, and if anyone has any questions about it, they can do an email to hello at elzante capital, and, we, you'll take it from there, but if you have any questions about it. So the, the fund is gonna be focused on hyperbitcoinization, it's gonna be focused on new entrepreneurs in El Salvador. Stacey's working with Jimmy Song, and they've identified dozens and dozens- Thousands of potential new Bitcoin developers and programmers that they're gonna be training up with the Jimmy Song's, you know, boot camp, Python Bitcoin developing boot camp. we've got now fifty, sixty people in the first week and we're able to pass the basic Python test and look eligible to be ready to go. So that's another exciting part of the country that was really an undiscovered, source of talent. I don't think anyone realized that there was so much engineering talent in El Salvador. and yet that's what we're finding, is that there's a lot of youth there that is completely technologically literate and ready to embrace this technology, and that's a lot of really good jobs and changing the country fundamentally. So that's, so we'll, we'll be fostering that as much as we can at Elzante Capital. So again, the theme is hyperbitcoinization and Bitcoin maximalization, but it won't be exclusively El Salvador. So we'll, we will be looking at the region and really, around the world. As well, where you see people mimicking El Salvador. So Elz, Elzante is the template that other countries and other cities will be mimicking, right? So they are the leader, and it's the Elzante formula, if you will, you know, how your country or your town can leave the fiat money war mongers behind and jump into the future with a peaceful, loving Bitcoin hyperbitcoinization." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:08", "start": 1328.29, "text": "Yeah, I like that. And it reminds me also how with- Some countries, they literally leapfrogged landline phones and just went straight to smartphone or straight to mobile, in a similar way where for some people, they may literally just jump straight into using Bitcoin and Lightning applications and wallets and everything without even really going to the fiat system." }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "22:32", "start": 1351.98, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. with, we've seen it all over Africa where, with the cell phone, mobile phones adoption, people just- Just leapfrog, ahead, away from the copper wires and telephony that the legacy systems were, were used to, and that brought on a lot of entrepreneurialism. And what was missing was Bitcoin. So, I mean, Africa is really a place that is benefiting incredibly by Bitcoin, by having this, pristine, almost, you know, virtually perfect money that can cross all over the continent, because if just doing business in Africa from one country to another, that could be- Maybe ten miles away or a mile away, it required an enormous amount of regulatory hoops to, to, to go through on the banking system, and all that's being obviated by Bitcoin. And, so, to your point, absolutely, we have a leapfrogging going on. That's why agile, entrepreneurial countries like El Salvador, other countries all over Africa, now in Central America, are better positioned to capitalize on Bitcoin than, let's say, the United States or Great Britain that have- Have are, are really c-completely entrenched in the old model, and they're not necessarily, they're not agile. I would not say when it comes to Bitcoin, they, they see it as a threat. the IMF and the World Bank and the Federal Reserve Bank and politicians, for the most part in the US, see Bitcoin as a threat, a-and it is a threat to the old way of doing business. There are fortunately some politicians in the US like Cynthia Lummis and others who are now embracing Bitcoin. Ted Cruz is another. They see it as a vote winner, a vote getter. So, and people are becoming single issue voters, where they, they'll vote for the Bitcoin candidate. So that's, that's the-- In, in the US, we s-- unlike other countries, you have states' rights, and the states are very, very powerful. They've been very powerful in, for example, changes to marijuana laws in the United States. It all started on the state level, now it's going to the federal level. It probably will happen in the Bitcoin a-arena as well. There'll be a couple of states That will start to lead the Bitcoin charge, could be Texas, could be Wyoming, and then that'll trickle up to the federal level as well. So the states in America, there's a tremendous balance of power that goes on there that's unlike anything in Europe. Europe tends to be very authoritarian in, in the way that it operates, and really around the world you find that. Only in the states do you have this kind of dynamism." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:04", "start": 1503.6, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Now, have you got the word? We're using the term \"signing devices\" instead of \"hardware wallets\" now, so go to coinkite.com and get the Coldcard, my favorite Bitcoin signing device. You can use this to store your private keys, but also to sign Bitcoin transactions. Now, some people think the Coldcard is only for advanced users. I don't think so. I think if you're a beginner, you can just plug it directly to your computer, and that's basically very accessible if you use wallets like Sparrow or Specter or Just get it started in the basic mode. You don't necessarily have to take it too advanced, just when you're getting started, and there are all sorts of guides and material on the Coldcard dot com website that you can use to get started with your Coldcard Bitcoin signing device. That website is coinkite dot com. And finally, lend at HodlHodl is a peer-to-peer Bitcoin-backed lending platform, so you can borrow stablecoins against your Bitcoin. So what we're doing here is a collateralized loan, an overcollateralized loan, where you put up some Bitcoin and you still hold one key in that deal, and this allows you to get some fiat liquidity without selling your Bitcoin. The way it works at HodlHodl is there are different deals up there on the website, and you go there, you can either pick an, a deal or you can go up there and post up your own offer The users are the ones who are controlling this, so basically the users put up how long they want to borrow and the interest rate that they are willing to lend or borrow for. So go and check it out, that website is lend dot h o d l h o d l dot com. Back to the show. Yeah, and that also brings up this whole question of, in the community, there are sometimes debates about how much engagement there should be with the political process versus those who are just saying, \"Nah, we just build our Bitcoin thing and we don't worry about them.\" Do you have any thoughts on that? Where do you come down on that kind of balance? Do you believe that there's a role for the lobbying aspect of it, or do you see it more like, \"No, let's just build Bitcoin things\"?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "26:57", "start": 1617.1, "text": "You know, the people come to Bitcoin who they are. You know, you come to it at who, who you are. And if you're a technologist like Michael Taylor, that's how you come to the party. If you're, a professor of monetary history like Sipdean Amos, that's how you come to the party, and you write the Bitcoin standard, and it's an instant classic. If you're a politician, you're gonna come to Bitcoin as a politician. You're not gonna come to it any other way. That's all you know. And as long as" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "27:27", "start": 1646.54, "text": "About, I've often said that the politicians in Washington that are now talking about Bitcoin is something of a fifth column for, for the Bitcoin revolution. They're inside, they're behind the walls, they're talking to other politicians. It's not needed, it's not required, but it doesn't hurt. just like having Wall Street get into Bitcoin doesn't hurt. If you have trading derivatives on Bitcoin, doesn't hurt in this, in the way that it does in the gold market, for example. people make that comparison often, but there's some key differences. So it doesn't, doesn't hurt. Anybody who's buying Bitcoin, asking about Bitcoin, talking about Bitcoin is adding to the momentum of Bitcoin, moving it forward toward a global Bitcoin standard, hyperbitcoinization, and Bitcoin maximalism. Bitcoin maximalism again is something that if your journey on Bitcoin ultimately leads toward Bitcoin maximalism, the more you learn, the more you know about it, the more you enter into the what's called a Bitcoin maximalist or a toxic Bitcoin maximalist. So So, and that, that's, that's the road. The road narrows. You know, the, the further down the road you get, the narrower the road is. You know, it's a bit of a biblical reference, but there you have it. But because Bitcoin represents as, gosh, you know, Stephan, there was a, I think it was either Time magazine or The Economist, they ran a cover story seven years ago now, and with about Bitcoin, and they call it the truth machine, and that was very prescient, and that was very forward-thinking, and it The absolute truth is going to create absolute outcomes, and in the case of perfect money, it means less war, less hate, and all these other benefits, and less carbon emissions. So in terms of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:11", "start": 1751.15, "text": "what is building into the ecosystem, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on what kind of companies you want to see or believe are going to be created over the next few years. Are they exchanges? Are they wallets? Are they education? Are they-- what kinds of services and companies are you- You looking forward to seeing?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "29:29", "start": 1769.24, "text": "Well, on the Elzante Capital, which is, this new venture capital fund, that's myself, Stacey Herbert, and Corey Klipsten are the general partners, and one of the areas that I've ta-- kind of flagged is education or ed tech, and I, I, I think this is, ripe for disruption, you know? I think also gaming, 'cause I come out of gaming. I, I created the Hollywood Stock Exchange back in the nineties. Which was a very successful online multi-user game, a simulated stock market based on Hollywood and movies and stars, and, had to invent a digital currency for that, which I have a patent on. So that's how I got into Bitcoin, is that I invented a, a virtual currency back in nineteen ninety-six. So I was very familiar with virtual currencies. But you can tell how virtual currencies in a gaming environment can-- the, the amount of, you know, educational, the education really- Increases quite, quite rapidly. So I'm interested also in gaming, in Bitcoin gaming, which is really not terribly explored. Dez Dickerson has a gaming company that's looking at, Bitcoin gaming, and I think that, that's the only real example I see of it. but I think that would, that's a great way to increase adoption, increase education, increase the community. It, it plays into the FOMO that is an underlying part of the stack of Bitcoin. The, the gamification of it fits perfect Perfectly with the, the other elements to it, the, the game theory. I mean, we talk about game theory about Bitcoin, how it's built into the protocol, but we have very little gaming in Bitcoin, which is kind of surprising. So I think these two really to come, come together in, in a way, I'd love to see that. If I find some Central American developers who can create some Bitcoin gaming apps and, I would be extremely interested in that. So, that, that would be a focus?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:28", "start": 1888.16, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So companies like Zebuddy and Thunder Games are well known in the Bitcoin world for that. And I think it's interesting as well, because some of the games that first came in the Bitcoin world were sort of Bitcoin-centric, but I think maybe what's needed to take it to that next level is some games that are enjoyable and fun in and of their own right, and also have some Bitcoin component with them. And I think perhaps that's the focus as well, and also trying to get plugged into already existing games is perhaps one angle to be explored. There on the Bitcoin gaming idea." }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "32:01", "start": 1921.06, "text": "Right, well, you know, one of the very, very first applications really was, Satoshi Dice, you know, Eric Voorhees, when he was a Bitcoin maximalist back, you know, ten years ago or so, Satoshi Dice was, w-was like the first introduction a lot of people had. That, that predates even the Silk Road, I believe. And, and it drove a lot of adoption. People heard about it. So yeah, Thunder Games, is, is active, and I think that is, A direction that can be further developed in a big way, and, and as you point out, gaming is, a lot of different ways that Bitcoin can be used in, in gaming. I know that, Sampson Mo, with Infinite Fleet, has an online game essentially, that is built on Liquid, that has its Bitcoin, and it's using kind of the m-online, multiplayer fantasy world Gaming environment, I think that'll attract a lot of adoption and, as well. And these types of things are, I, I don't, I, I think that there's a huge un, untapped market here, to, to, to be honest. So, a, at El Zante Capital, again, I'm, I'm totally interested. You know, and the people that can come up with interesting games like this, I'm definitely interested. Any startups out there, Central America, Latin America, around the world, this is for me as one of the I'm, I'm, this one, I'm one of three, so, yeah, th-this isn't my sole decision, but I would definitely be looking at that. For sure. and I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:36", "start": 2015.93, "text": "think the other interesting area that you mentioned around game theory, talking about adoption at a country-by-country level, I'm curious to get your thoughts on who might be next, and we are seeing, as we speak today, it's the twenty-seventh of April, twenty twenty-two, and we are seeing some news about Central African Republic. Now, they are a small nation in Africa, just" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:58", "start": 2037.94, "text": "We seem to be seeing some news that they have adopted Bitcoin, and so I'm curious, Max, if you have any reactions on this and thoughts about where it's all going in terms of which countries?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "34:09", "start": 2049.22, "text": "Right, well, you know, we-- I was talking, on my show back in twenty fourteen, about, who would be the first country to make Bitcoin, legal tender, and some names were, were, were tossed around, you know, what, what might be the, the first to do it based on they were being sanctioned and they-- countries had a real need to get out of the dollar, and, nobody had, was picked El Salvador at that time. At time, although it was discussed that it would be a small country, some-- a country that was nimble, that could make changes pretty rapidly. So that would be, I think, still hold. I mean, these are smaller countries now that they want to become bigger countries, and so they, they understand that by making Bitcoin legal tender, they're immediately plugged into the global monetary network of perfect money. So it's a way for them to do a leap, a leap and bound, to jump ahead. so these, that's where we're gonna see a lot of action. On, on the big country side, you know, the bigger countries, I guess you'd have to look at Mexico now. I mean, Mexico seems like they keep talking about Bitcoin, they've got some politicians that are very pro-Bitcoin. I know we had a meeting, we set up a meeting between Ricardo Celanis Pleyego and, President Bukele, meeting that was set up by Stacey a few weeks ago in El Salvador, and, there was a lot Now, you know, lined up with Bitcoin, and increasingly it looks like the benefits that would accrue to Mexico by making Bitcoin legal tender are starting to really, you know, become clear to the, to the current leadership and, and the future leadership. So that would be a spot definitely to look at. But I think it's, one thing is, is clear, is that it's inevitable, right? We all say Bitcoin is inevitable. I think that the various countries making it legal tender is just gonna keep rolling through until we get a global Bitcoin- Standard. The, the countries that'll be last to adopt it will be those who are more sensitive to the disruptive properties of Bitcoin. So the US as a whole, Europe seems really frightened of Bitcoin, which makes sense. the UK is really frightened of Bitcoin, that makes sense, because they are very, top-heavy bureaucratic countries that are very, very slow to change, and they're very, they're ossified to a great deal, and so they're gonna be, they're gonna be late To the party, to their detriment, to, to their-- they're gonna end up buying at a much higher, higher price. You get the price you deserve, right? That's right. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:47", "start": 2207.0, "text": "I think the other example country that gets thrown around, not necessarily from a Bitcoin legal tender, but just from an overall arc as a country is Singapore, right? So I think that's something that, even President Bukele has mentioned this idea of, maybe not explicitly, or I'm, I'm not sure maybe he has explicitly mentioned this idea of El Salvador being sort of like a Singapore of Central Of South America." }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "37:10", "start": 2230.42, "text": "Right. Well, again, the FOMO is gonna kick in. So El Salvador, they reported the biggest GDP growth in their, definitely thirty years, but maybe in history, ten percent, more than ten percent this year looks like they're gonna do even, even better because tourism is exploding. The, elimination of the terrorists, the gang terrorists, means essentially everyone gets a twenty-five percent tax break because of the extortion will be, will, will go away, plus the bitcoiners, plus Alzante Capital and others are kind of developing and the infrastructure for technology and technology development, and, so their GDP is set to Do a lot more than ten percent in this fiscal year. So other countries are gonna look at that and say, \"You know, what are they doing right? You know, how did-- how does El Salvador GDP, the fastest growing economy in the world?\" And they'll say, \"Well, it must be this Bitcoin thing.\" So the FOMO kicks in. You know, the, the, the Bitcoin is supercharging that country, and the g-- and the numbers are clear, in the GDP numbers and, the revenue numbers, the tourism numbers, and the president- And is totally orange-pilled, and, it's like having Satoshi run a country, you know? Clearly the, the, the, the impact is gonna be hyperbitcoinization and a supersonic growth." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:34", "start": 2314.09, "text": "I think it's really cool just that it has become almost like a pilgrimage for bitcoiners, that especially those who are in parts of the world close to El Salvador, a lot of Americans and Canadians have, been flying down as like almost like a little Bitcoin pilgrimage to go see El- El Zonte and whether that's, for the conferences that were on, there were some last year adopting Bitcoin and La Bitcoin on in November twenty twenty-one, so that was when I visited as well. I thought it was just really fun to be able to walk around and, you know, you could just go to different shops and pay with Bitcoin over the Lightning Network and you could just see it go through straight away. I thought that part was so cool. And there's also been some speculation that, let's say, a large multinational who sets up for Bitcoin payments in El Salvador Well, they may then leverage that infrastructure in some other country, so we may see it even at a multinational corporation level where they decide, hey, you know what, it's not gonna be that much more work for us to just turn on Bitcoin in this other country, let's just do it." }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "39:33", "start": 2373.39, "text": "Yeah, e-e-exactly. People in El Salvador are paying using Bitcoin at, at McDonald's, right? So, you know, they might just turn it on in other countries. So that's, and other, other big corporations that are, that are in El Salvador. And the events that we In El Salvador. And, when we have them, we've had three of them so far, and two hundred and fifty people show up, from all over the world. People fly in for these events 'cause they wanna meet Max and Stacey and the guests like yourself, who we bring in high level, well known bitcoiners, and, so it's like a mini conference almost, and people fly in from all over the world. We'll have another one coming up, I believe, Stacey would know more of the details, but I believe there's one coming up in July" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "40:20", "start": 2419.54, "text": "It's gonna be a big Bitcoin meetup in El Salvador, in El Zante, I believe, in, in July, so that would be big. the Bitcoin week in El Salvador will be coming up in November, last year, the first year they did it, it brought in more than a hundred million dollars in, in tourism money. You know, tourism year to year com- the comparison went from seven hundred million to one point four billion from the year before, so tourism is absolutely exploding, and that's gonna be- Be up a-again, again this year. And it, it's a fantastic country to visit. I mean, the, they got the, the volcanoes, the, the, the ocean is gorgeous, the surfing is fantastic, and the Pacific is warm. It's a warm water. unlike, let's say Santa Monica in California, you know, the, the water there is quite cold. People actually don't go swimming in Los Angeles 'cause the water's too cold. but in El Salvador, the water is warm, the beaches are, are beautiful, and the people are really You know, they've got this incredible president at the helm, all these changes are made, are being made. Bitcoin means they've got unconfiscatable wealth. People will come up to me and they'll say, \"Max, Max, look, hold up, they'll say, I've got fifty dollars.\" And, and this is like, they're thrilled that they've got savings. That, you know, guys who are selling, let's say donuts on the street, he, he started using Bitcoin and it made the business instantly more efficient and more profitable. He's high- Hired now somebody to do, to work with him and, and to expand his business. So businesses are, all these entrepreneurial mom and pop businesses are expanding with Bitcoin and the infrastructure of payments that come with Bitcoin, and, and that message is going out all over the region to Guatemala and other countries. People are waking up to this, that, you know, we, we have the ability now to become individually sovereign, to kind of write our own future, to hope, to have a faith, to have some optimism here, and that is infectious. You know, people are naturally- Want to have a happy heart, you know, they, and, and the Bitcoin allows that to happen, and so it spreads, it spreads easily, and this is what we're seeing. So the people like going there just because they feel better. It's like getting a tonic, it's like drinking happy juice or something. And plus, speaking of happy juice, the coffee in El Salvador is amazing. I mean, this is incredible. The coffee, I've never-- Since coming back from El Salvador, all the coffee here in the United States, it feels like decaffeinated or something. It Me to sleep. I need, I need to go back just for the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:52", "start": 2571.74, "text": "coffee. That's fantastic. And so from a Bitcoiner perspective, have you got any tips in? Or maybe we could talk a little bit about what are some, some of the Bitcoin companies who are there right now? So as I understand, so obviously Galloy Money, they were behind Bitcoin Beach. I know eBEX Mercado, are doing some of the payments infrastructure and as an exchange. Open Node are helping with some of the payments. I think Bitrefill are there also. So what can you tell Companies in El Salvador at the moment." }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "43:23", "start": 2602.86, "text": "Right, well, you, you did mention kind of the top companies that are there now. we're working right now to bring Swan Bitcoin into El Salvador more aggressively. You know, they're launching their new app in a couple of weeks, and we shot a series of commercials with Max and Stacey for this new app that'll start running when the app is launched, and we shot them in El Salvador. So, that'll be, that'll be pretty cool. The Fold Card, Will Reeves' company, is also looking now to expand into El Salvador. We work with them pretty closely, and, they're, they're looking to get big into El Salvador. the El-Zonte Capital, our new VC fund, we're-- we've, we've committed to making an investment in a company called Bold, B O L D. So it's a-- it's a card that is essentially you use your card and it- It draws on your Bitcoin, purely as collateral. So it's backed by Bitcoin, and you're using, you're, you're nothing, you're not spending your Bitcoin, you're just using it as collateral. So it draws on that, as, as, when you're, so you don't ever have to sell your Bitcoin. so that we're lo-working with them to get more presence in El Salvador. So the Elante Capital will hopefully, you know, be that bridge for a lot of the companies trying to make it into El Salvador and Central America. You For, as part of what we do, you know, a way to get into that market, and of course, we invest in a lot-- we'll be investing in these companies. And, oh yeah, Samson Mao, of course, is launching Jan three. So, you know, he left Blockstream, and he's setting up shop in El Salvador with a company called Jan three. And, that's exciting. So we've-- it's already, I think they're, they're, they're looking to raise a, a big chunk of cash, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:20", "start": 2719.86, "text": "Yeah, yeah, no, that's fantastic to see. I think it's really great, and, do you have any tips then for people, like, let's say there's a listener now, they're a Bitcoiner, they haven't been yet, do you have any tips on what they should do or on how they should go about, visiting, El Salvador?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "45:34", "start": 2733.75, "text": "Right, well, it's easy to do, you, you can fly there from, many places, you land in El, the San Salvador Airport, it's about forty" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "45:50", "start": 2749.58, "text": "A couple of hotels in, in San Salvador that are great, and, the whole town, it, it, you know, San Salvador is kind of like there are parts of it, it's like West Hollywood, it's what it looks like. It's got low-rise buildings, the palm trees, people are out, the music's playing, they're dancing, they're out eating, and it's a pretty happening place. And El Zonte is only a fifty-minute ride from there. People are still frightened by the violence, which was a thing maybe before the current president took office that That would have been more of a factor, but, currently, this is, I would say, not a factor. and when you compare to, let's say, Chicago or, or these other American cities, it's, it, it's, it's a, it's a frickin' nunnery compared to, some of these other American cities. So that's not really a factor. The people who've gone there and visited, they have said, and you, you know, that, their, their sense is they, they have no feeling In a violent environment whatsoever. So that's, that's something for folks to keep in mind. You know, bring your bathing suit and, you know, if you're in El Zonte, that, you know, it's divided by a, a bit of a, a little stream, the two parts. So to get back and forth, I recommend you bring proper footwear, is what I, my top recommendation for coming to El Zonte. A foot-- Like I was wearing these loafers for a week and I destroyed them because I kept going through this water back and forth. But you need proper waterproof like sandals. That's pretty much the key to it. Once you have those, that, you can, you're, you're, you're good to go. Then it's just you, the surf, and a lot of really good coffee. Very zen-like atmosphere, you would probably just sit down there and take it all in, and you might have some, your consciousness raised in a way that will shock you. You'll meet yourself in El Zante. And it might" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:48", "start": 2868.08, "text": "be a, a place people wanna think about if they can work remotely, they might think about, hey, go and work in El Zonte, and then you can spend Bitcoin, if you're earning Bitcoin and you can spend it directly, you, you might feel more connected in with the whole Bitcoin circular economy. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "48:01", "start": 2880.75, "text": "absolutely. You know, you can do your nomad, digital nomads work there in El Zonte, and as you point out, you're plugged into hyperbitcoinization, so you're at one with Satoshi, you've achieved Bitcoin nirvana. I love it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:15", "start": 2895.48, "text": "well, that's fantastic. I think, those are probably the key points I, I was, interested to ask about. I guess maybe just one other area. Do you see, more development coming around the whole residency by investment or potentially citizenship by investment? Do you see, more details coming for that, for those bitcoiners who are thinking about that aspect for El Salvador?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "48:36", "start": 2915.69, "text": "yes, absolutely. So this is part of a, a set of laws that are working their way through legislation right now. So in, in- In terms of the volcano bond and, which is a very interesting project, an exciting project that will come as-- on the, on the tail of passing, these, this suite of laws, approximately fifty-two laws, so they're re-- really rewriting the entire financial regulatory structure in El Salvador to be Bitcoin-centered, Bitcoin-focused. So that means not only for volcano bonds, but for a lot of companies that are more in looking to be-- get into finance, you know, El Salvador will be a good destination for that because you can kind of recreate what we've seen in other financial centers, but do so like a Singapore, for example, or New York. You can do that in, in El Salvador, but on top of a stack of laws that are Bitcoin focused. So I think that's gonna bring-- that's gonna be enormously impactful Impactful to the economy and, and to the region. So this is, this is something to keep in mind that the traction for, of this location for that type of business is gonna start to go up pretty sharply in the near future. Included in that suite of laws are gonna be the citizenship and residency laws and regulations in terms of what people will be able to do to, to acquire, to obtain citizenship in El Salvador, in their- There will be, there's talk about it right now. What would be, let's say, the sweet spot to attract, lots of folks? You know, there are other countries that have economic citizenship, particularly in, the, the islands, like, Dominica and, Saint Kitts and these other types of islands, they have different, you know, our friend Katie, the Russian, specializes in this type of thing. So," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:42", "start": 3042.43, "text": "yeah," }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "50:43", "start": 3043.32, "text": "I don't know for sure But I'm, I'm, my speculation is that they'll, they're, they're going to attempt to kind of be very attractive in that market with an attractive kind of price point, if you will, but we'll get more details as, as they come out. But it will be, the, the government is keenly interested in getting Bitcoiners to relocate to this citadel, Bitcoin citadel, of El Salvador. So they're gonna, they're gonna be responsive to what Bitcoiners- Want, and they will be accommodative to that. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:19", "start": 3079.42, "text": "One other area is obviously Bitcoin City. Do you have any, intention of, you know, are you gonna go and get a place there as well?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "51:26", "start": 3086.2, "text": "Well, definitely interested in, in, in creating a company there because it's, there's no taxes. there's no payroll tax, capital gains tax, income tax, so it's tax free. They, they will have a value added tax, that will be the only tax in, in Bitcoin City. And, So that as a location to start a company, I think that will be, it's kind of like a, an enterprise zone, so that will attract a, a lot of, a lot of folks for sure, and that's in a whole 'nother area that's being developed. Property prices, you know, are definitely going up in, in places like the, the, Bitcoin City area, as well as in San Salvador and El Zonte, prices are going up. Having said that, guys like Mike Peterson, who is really creating the Bitcoin Beach phenomenon, is working Working really hard with the government and other folks to keep development, manageable so that there's-- it doesn't get out of hand, it's not overdeveloped, and there's plenty of housing for local folks. And, again, because everyone's on a thinking like a Bitcoiners, the objective tends to go toward a something that's more harmonious and peaceful. You know, in the fiat money world, people tend to do things that are inconsistent with the, with the benefits. Of the community as a whole, because it's, Bitcoin breeds a lot of corruption because the, the laws are generally made by the folks who have the most fiat money or proof of stake, you know, is just another version of fiat money, isn't it? So they just, it, it breeds corruption. But with Bitcoin, you have a completely different mindset, and I think we'll see that reflected in how the, the country develops. So we're not, we're not gonna see in the tourist areas what we've seen other tourist areas where it becomes overdeveloped in ways and, and And, I don't think we're gonna see that. I-- We'll, we'll see some development for sure, but I think we're gonna see something a little bit more holistic and, and, and reflect the values and ethos of Bitcoin maximalism." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:27", "start": 3206.79, "text": "Fantastic, Max. Well, really enjoyed chatting with you. and, for any listeners who wanna find you online or find Elzante Capital, where's the best place?" }, { "speaker": "max_keiser", "time": "53:35", "start": 3214.51, "text": "Well, if you're curious about Elzante Capital, you can send an email to hello at elzante capital dot com. And, you can, that's, that's the best way to kind of, start your journey into Elzante Capital. plus we have a Twitter feed, Elzante Capital on Twitter. I'm on Twitter, of course. Stacy Herbert's on Twitter. So those three Twitter feeds would definitely cover pretty much everything we're up to at the moment. Information about this event coming up in El Salvador in July, Bitcoin Week in November is coming up. we're gonna be There next week in El Salvador. I'm, I'm working on, presenting a paper, essentially, outlining, what I believe to be the tenets of Bitcoin maximalism, and I wanted to talk a little bit about, about that more, next week. So that, that's gonna be interesting. That's something to look forward to next week." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:36", "start": 3276.29, "text": "Fantastic. Well, Max, I enjoyed chatting with you and I look forward to catching up soon. Thanks for joining me. Alrighty, thanks. Get the show notes at stephanlivera.com. Thanks for listening, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }