{ "episodeId": "SLP375", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "laolu_roasbeef": { "name": "Laolu (Roasbeef)", "role": "guest", "tag": "LAOLU" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.51, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today we're talking about Taro, which is a new protocol being proposed by the Lightning Labs team. And joining me today is Laolu, also known as Roasbeef. He is the CTO of Lightning Labs. He's been a guest on the show, I think, three or four times in the past. Today we talk about how Taro works as well. Well as contrasting it with prior efforts in this space, things like colored coins, counterparty, RGB. We talk about some of the benefits of the Taro approach, what it would look like in practice, as well as Lightning Network just in general, how it's growing and developing, as well as some discussion on CTV and ST, so that's Check Template Verify and Speedy Trial. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, the easy way to buy Bitcoin and also learn about Bitcoin. Swan also has a service called Swan Private. This one is for For high net worth investors and entity customers who have a business that they wanna stack with. Now, with Swan Private, you have access to a Bitcoin advisor that is your one on one contact, your person who you can call, you can pick up the phone or you can email, and this is something that many customers have found really handy because it's that service difference. It's having somebody who can actually pick up the phone or answer your questions and get you some help in a prompt manner. Also, Swan Private customers receive the Swan Private Insight Monthly research report that is also there for Swan Private customers only. Go and check it out. The website is swanprivate dot com. Now, if you're involved in Bitcoin mining, you have to check out brains dot com. Brains offer Brains OS Plus. This is aftermarket third-party firmware that you can install on your ASIC mining machine to increase your hash rate. You might improve your efficiency as much as twenty-five percent, and you can use it to mine on any pool or if you point your hash power towards slash pool, you get the added- Benefit of zero percent pool fees. Now go to the website and check out the supported models, but here's, here are some currently, so S19, S19 Pro, S19J, S19J Pro, T19, a range of the S17s, that they've got in the development pipeline, what's miner M20S, and the ant miner X19 model. So make sure you check out their website, that's brains dot com, and that is spelt b r a i i n s dot com. Do you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:30", "start": 150.12, "text": "Can help you, they have a peer to peer Bitcoin backed lending platform where you can anonymously borrow stablecoins against your Bitcoin. So what's happening here is you are entering into an over collateralized Bitcoin collateralized loan, and on the other side, the other party is putting up stablecoins, and then at the end of that term, you pay back the stablecoins plus the interest, and you receive your Bitcoin back. So at Lend, at Hotellhodl, all these deals are happening directly between users. So you can go to the website, you can search the offers that are up there, or Don't offer if you don't see one that matches the terms that you are looking for. And so when you put up that offer, you can put up how much you want to borrow and what interest rate you are looking to pay. So go and check it out, that website is lend dot h o d l h o d l dot com. And now onto the show with Laolu. Laolu, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "03:19", "start": 199.2, "text": "Yo, what's up? It's been a while, you know, I think I was on last like maybe a year or two ago, but, you know, it was good to be back." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:25", "start": 204.58, "text": "Yeah, it's been a while. Unfortunately, we didn't, as I was saying, before, we didn't get a chance to catch up at, Miami, but, excited to chat a little bit about what's going on in the world of Lightning and Taro, and maybe we'll touch on the CTV stuff as" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:47", "start": 227.22, "text": "That can operate kind of with Lightning or on top of Lightning, I guess people can debate that part. So, do you wanna tell us a little bit about like, what was the motivator behind that?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "03:57", "start": 236.94, "text": "really good question. I mean, so I think the motivator was, you can say like, you know, somewhat of like a perception and kind of a gap in the market, but at the same time, kind of like some opportunity, there as well too, just as far as like, you know, us thinking, okay, like, you know, how else can we you know, I came up with like the concept like some time, like probably like last September or so, and that was kind of like the initial idea, kind of like an inkling. Then I started to kind of develop the protocol a bit more, you know, what, decided to go with more of like the bit broad as far as like getting the initial specification out first before doing, doing any of the code. That was kind of like, you know, some, some of the story to like actually getting the idea and like kind of, you know, doing that, aspect Some particular, you know, aspects or they're kind of like, you know, trying to make things a little bit more, easier to the consumer. I think the other thing that we all saw as well was kind of like some things going on Bitcoin Beach, as far as like, you know, them kind of like running that pilot and actually getting a lot, a lot of people onto Bitcoin itself and kind of like that, some of their challenges as far as like, you know, being able to, you know, display balance to users or kind of give users that extra ability that they," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:08", "start": 307.57, "text": "Yeah. And so it seems that, as I read you, then it's also that people in the developing world tend to want to have USD in their wallet as well as Bitcoin. And so as I understand you, then it's like this idea that you're trying to create a bridge for them to be able to use, kind of like stablecoins, but on Lightning as opposed to the Tether stablecoin, as an example, or just sort of trusting the wallet provider with that balance, let's say." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "05:35", "start": 335.03, "text": "Yeah. I mean, so it's kind of a thing where, you Going for the protocol first, not really kind of like, you know, picking who the winners are, kind of like who's actually issuing these assets or stablecoins or whatever else, you know, we're kind of like being a little more agnostic in that, in that domain. For example, other individuals that maybe are doing stablecoins on other chains, they can actually come over and issue them on Taro as well too, if they really wanted to. So it's kind of a good thing by, you know, by kind of going for the protocol first, we kind of create that inter, interoperable You know, there were things that, you know, that come up, that came up in the past, but like those things may be almost like eight plus years old now and like very kind of like, you know, ancient as far as like Bitcoin design, and things move very, very quickly. So I think there's also kind of an opportunity to kind of like, you know, take some of the new modern principles and show people like what this protocol would look like, in, in, in real, in real life as well too. But also, I think, kind of like, What people are doing. Also, br-br-- you know, bringing back to Bitcoin, we also give those developers a little bit more to tinker with, because like it's kind of a thing where it's like, you know, you get developers like that one API and like they'll do magical stuff with it basically. So it's kind of both, you know, kind of like enabling, you know, people on Lightning itself, growing the size of Lightning, you know, and kind of like the marketplace and other innovators working on it, but also giving people, you know, kind" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:07", "start": 427.25, "text": "point you make actually, because it's not that there's going to be one stablecoin, there may be Tether, Taro, for example, right? That, just like there's Tether on, you know, Tron and some of these other things. Yeah, but the Tether liquid, you know? So interesting, yeah. And so, do you wanna tell us a little bit about some of your view of the history of some of these ideas? Because as I see it, there's things like colored coins, counterparty, and RGB as perhaps preceding ideas to, to this idea Idea. So do you wanna tell us a little bit about the contrast then between Taro and the approach of some of those other ideas like colored coins and so on?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "07:46", "start": 465.84, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good question. You know, yeah, 'cause like, you know, this stuff goes pretty far back, right? You can say like the first, you know, meta assets, quote unquote, actually, is on Bitcoin. You know, people kind of like in a head of ways, okay, we can kind of represent, you know, either with the Bitcoin itself or maybe even kind of" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "08:07", "start": 487.27, "text": "Some, you know, called it a counterparty market or, you know, counterparty back then, we're basically trying to create this like meta protocol on top of Bitcoin itself, right? And what they did, they kind of like, you know, had this protocol where you actually burned a bunch of Bitcoin. I think back to maybe like five thousand plus Bitcoin were actually burned to those like special, like, you know, Bitcoin e-dos or something like that. People basically burnt, you know, coins and sent them to that address, and they got this thing called XCP in return And then interpreted that transaction data as far as like, you know, the raw data, and that was actually using something called op return, right? So the way it worked, you basically kind of like, you know, would have like an op return, and people, people would effectively be like scanning the chain, you know, applying the data in the op return into like the local database, someone chats people like, you know, maybe use the mempool or the actor chain or something like that itself, right? So that kind of like, you know, was a thing initially. you know" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "09:07", "start": 547.27, "text": "They didn't really take off that, that, that large. I think a lot of people got more excited about it, but I think other systems that came up afterwards that maybe like made entirely new chains kind of like took away some of that energy and then went that, that other way. But I think the main thing that came out of that was basically Tether, as far as like them issuing that initially, which was very, very early on, and it was super small, now it's like billions. Back then it was basically like, you know, nothing, nearly at that point, too, Full node, right? On top of it being a full node, there's actually another thing, you know, as far as being able to index them a little more quickly, like an address index basically, addressing that's something on top of the, normal, you know, block chain index itself that can let you kind of, you know, take a map of an address basically, all the transactions that are in the chain, right? That's another thing that's very, very intensive and you're very, you know, difficult to maintain as far as like this basically moves As far as like, I have my account, like I, you know, I'm actually like adding like mod-modifying transactions to the chain itself. I can scan all those, I can apply all those, you know, you know, modifications in, in, in order basically to get to my final state, right? And, you know, I think that was kind of like a departure because if you look at the docs and things like that, like it's very hard for like a Bitcoin developer to understand. They're kind of like, okay, well, what am I really doing here? I That was like, you know, the counterparty, you know, MagicCon era basically. You know, at that point, like, people ended up making, you know, other change and kind of like, you know, left that project, but then Tether came out of it and like, installed, still, you know, lo-loved elsewhere. And then, I think for a while there was kind of like a, you can say like, like a doldrums and kind of like, you know, activity in the space. You know, probably like, you know, I think even back then, like there was something called bare multisig, which basically actually like inserting, you know, like, so you know, say we basically have, you know, a P2SH where you kind of like, you have the script, but you have the hash of the script, and the change is, you know, very compact, right? Back then, there was something called bare multisig, which basically you actually put the actual pub key, multisig script in the, in the actual output itself, right? So you basically put, you know, twenty pub keys, you All the other projects since then, I've basically tried to take advantage of like, okay, well, let's not necessarily try to commit all the data onto the chain, let's just try to, you know, commit, you know, the data itself, basically, and then come like have that data be hosted off-chain. That's kind of like, you know, similar, you know, paradigm with something like, you know, Taro, right? And then I, then I would say, you know, after that, there was something, you know, kind of like RGB, Actually, you know, commit or rather than actually embed all the data into the chain, just maybe commit to it in some, you know, kind of like manner, right? And I think, you know, it kind of like stayed in that concept for a while. I think later on, people started to actually, like, you know, take it and have like a lot more, you know, concrete proposals as far like implementing it, you know, things like that as well, too. you know, I think between, you know, then and kind of like, you know, now You know, didn't really seem like, you know, exactly what they're gonna do with it. And I think one thing, you c-could kind of compared, between Taro as well, like, you know, Taro like, like, tries to be like very specific as far as, okay, we're, we're just gonna like do assets on the chain and software, we're gonna be, we'd like to basically issue assets and then move assets and also kind of like make sure we have that like lightning integration, kind of something first class, while something like Which is, you know, trying to be like, you know, like a more generalized smart contract platform, kind of like an Etherkiller type of thing as well, too. So I think that, like, you know, maybe, you know, happened for a few years ago, and I think that maybe is like what caused them to kind of like, you know, work on other things on the side, 'cause I think it's very, like, you know, it's a, it's definitely, definitely very tempting as an engineer to basically, like, you know, try to I tried to make sure, like, you know, it was gonna be easy to implement and also easy to understand, right? And that's something that's very, I think, very worthwhile as well, too. Because if you're able to kind of, you know, simplify and like actually restrict yourself design-wise, that makes, that lets you kind of, you know, minimize complexity basically, and then make sure that you can basically understand yourself, and then make sure other individuals can understand it as well, too. So as much as possible, try to, like, you know, kind of like reuse existing Right? So like, let's say, you know, you're kind of like, you know, writing like, you know, an asset or kind of like, you know, do, like, trying to incorporate some asset with the script and Taro layer, it looks very much like Bitcoin, right? It's actually just Taproot, right? So, you know, similarly today, as you can actually, you can actually have, like, you know, multiple scripts in Taproot and have multisig, Taro has the exact same thing" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "14:26", "start": 866.16, "text": "as well, too, right? and like And like, you know, other ways to commit data, but I'm like, one of the insights, insights, okay, well, where do you have the tap root tree? Tap root tree kind of like has, give us like a very structured way to commit to scripts. What if we basically leverage that itself to kind of like, you know, have that like, Merkle root path from the tap root tree basically into taro land? That's kind of how it works, right? So the taro itself is kind of like a tree of trees, right? And the tree structures" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "15:07", "start": 907.43, "text": "By, you know, shoo- by giving you a Merkle proof from, from the block header down to my transaction itself, right? That's really cool. The, the next thing Merkle tree does is, or a tree is like, it says, okay, well, you know, in addition to committing to the actual, element, we're also gonna commit to kind of like some structured data, maybe in the form of like a value, right? And that's really cool because all of a sudden now I can also prove to you that, okay, well, you know, I have It's kind of like, you know, let's you do, you know, efficient proof of non-inclusion, right? So, you know, let's say I wanted to like prove to you that, okay, well, an element is not actually within the Merkle tree. That, that's kind of like difficult depending on like, number one, is the Merkle tree sorted or not? If it's not sorted, then basically, I basically need to like, you know, reveal effectively every single other element within the tree itself. If it is sorted, maybe I can reveal like the left and the I show you that like, you know, within that tree there's actually an empty element, right? That's really cool because then I can have like verification proofs. And these are used all over tarot, for example, you know, let's say I have like a collectible, like a baseball card or something like that, and like we're swapping it on chain, right? You know, I want you to prove to me that it's not, not actually committed to your, into your tree anymore, right? And I can do that by you, using this non-inclusion proof to make sure that Anything as far as like validation or verification is very, very upfront in the design basically, because, you know, otherwise, you know, I think if, if you're, if you're, if you're trying to look, look something, it's very like hidden or somewhat obfuscated, maybe you're a little more skeptical. We need to try to make sure that everything was very much like kind of like at the forefront, like, okay, well, this how, you know, issuance works, this how validation works, this how like verification works as well. Two, that's like a major goal of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:57", "start": 1016.9, "text": "Yeah, interesting stuff. So just to summarize a little bit, so some of the earlier approaches, things like counterparty and things, colored coins might have required a lot more on-chain footprint and maybe weren't as suitable for a light client approach. So kind of the idea with Taro is to utilize Taproot, right, because now we have it, and you can have these script paths and bundle things inside of that, and then with this protocol where we talk to each other and if we're sort of- Of bundling in this information in a way that only the other person sort of knows what to look for, right? I guess that's kind of a simplifying-" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "17:35", "start": 1054.55, "text": "Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you can say it's like, okay, like you can say, \"Well, okay, we're committing to something. What exactly is that something? Like, you know, what's the, the asset? Like, you know, what's like the ticker? Like, what's the amount? Like, is there any other metadata as well, too?\" So like the protocol also defines, like, beyond that, you know, as well too. And like you're saying, the cool thing, you know, similar to some of the other things on this space as well too, is that like, you know, I can basically do something on chain today, and like individuals wouldn't even really know I'm issuing an asset, right? So you kind of like also kind of like blend in with the existing Taproot anonymity set, which is really cool because all of a sudden now, like, you know, it's not really clear is that like a normal transaction, is that an HTLC That stablecoin itself, right? That should be public, obviously, right? But if I, if I have like something that maybe between like a set of individuals, that doesn't necessarily need, need public, need to be public. And it also has this other cool thing with kind of like this whole Merkle zone property, and that like, you know, this makes it very easy to kind of like do things like, you know, run, kind of like, you know, proofs of like supply or issuance, basically, right? Because all of a sudden now, like, you know, like Use that to, like, you know, track the issuance on chain, which is very important because obviously you want to know, like, you know, exactly, like, how many of the units that you're, you're talking with, you also want to know things like when, when it actually maybe is reissued, if that's possible. There's some other things around, you know, watching particular outputs on the chain. So, so say, like, you know, theoretically, I could basically watch an output and get notified every single time someone issues another, you know, type of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:27", "start": 1166.66, "text": "He wants to do a Taro stablecoin, and how is it ensured that, let's say, that Taro stablecoin that they've made is actually fungible across the entire network and, I guess, the supply limits of it as well to know that it's not being, let's say, inflated beyond what the issuer is saying is. You know, like, let's say, I'm, I'm dodgy, I create Stephan dollars on the Taro network, and I tell everyone, \"Oh, look, guys, I've only made a hundred, you know, Stephan dollars, but actually Yeah, exactly." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "19:58", "start": 1197.63, "text": "you know, really, really good question. So basically, it's kind of like based on like, so you can say like, you can take the Bitcoin blockchain is basically defined by the genesis block, right? That's bi- that's basically the very first block, and anything beyond that is like what's Bitcoin. If someone gives you like, you know, a chain that doesn't start a genesis block, basically that's not Bitcoin. That's like some other, you know, spin-off coin that was created or something like that, right? So the as- the Because otherwise, like, another change you kind of like have like some global sequencer basically can make like give you a contract ID or something like that. In this case, we don't really have that, but you can rely on the fact that, you know, bi- you know, Bitcoin outputs never be double spent. Basically, that's kind of like, you know, the, the main security property from front of view of the chain. So you use that to basically generate, you know, what's called a genesis output that's then used to generate the asset ID, which then you use to actually create From that, right? So now in this case, you can kind of like view it as a kind of like, sort of like a tree or a web. Any other issuance or any, or sorry, any other transfer based off of like the ten bucks is gonna now emanate from that initial UTXO, right? So there's kind of like this graph going down, right? So any individual now that's having, like, you know, the, that's receiving or wanting to, like, you know, send those assets, also just verifies that it's actually gonna go back to And this basically where it's anchored at in the initial chain. That's what's kind of like, you know, where this universe comes in, universe con-concept comes in, which we'll talk about in a second, right? So from that, at that point, like, you know, people then know that, okay, well, there's only ten of those in ex-existence basically, 'cause they look at that initial creation and then say, okay, well, only ten of those was actually created, right? So, and so from there, you can say, okay, well, you know This is basically kind of like a special key that's, delegated to basically, to allow you to basically, you know, create additional assets actually linked, you know, provably to that initial tranche, right? So maybe you wanna like, you know, issue it in like, you know, tranche one, tranche two, tranche three, something else like that, right? So now that you have that key, anytime you wanna make another version of asset, you basically, you need to like have a signature from that key itself. The cool thing is like, you know," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "22:26", "start": 1346.45, "text": "criterion, other, you know, reason may be like why you'd want to unlock that particular asset itself, right? But now let's say you go, you go and issue that asset once more, right? There's another construct, called kind of like a canonical universe, right? And the universe, you know, and, and the system is basically, it's effectively like, like a, another like Merkle, another like sparse Merkle tree, but it's actually an index into the chain, right? So the initial tree, like that we talked about earlier, you" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "22:56", "start": 1376.37, "text": "Like all the assets related to that initial asset itself, right? So now at this point, like, whenever you create this asset, like, it's kind of like a rule that says, okay, well, the next, the second output after that creation must commit to this canonical universe, basically, right? And this, this is kind of like the on-chain structure that individuals are gonna use to actually track the asset itself, right? So let's say you want to, like, you know, issue another, you know, version of the asset, you must spend that initial output basically. By spending" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "23:26", "start": 1406.39, "text": "system itself, right? So initially, like, let's say universe only had like one output in it, which basically the very, very first trans, right? And that committed to basically five, so the root sum is five now, right? But let's, let's say we do it again, now you issue like fifteen, right? The root sum now is now gonna be twenty basically, and people basically point to those two areas in the chain. So once again, now anytime like I'm validating something that says, okay, they actually have two fun bucks, I then have the universe, which, which Property of like the, s m tree, s m t tree is like, has a property called like history independence, right? So basically like, let's say like I have like, you know, three key values, basically, and you have three, three key values, no matter what order we insert them into the tree, we're gonna get, we're gonna get the exact same root hash. So it's actually deterministic, right? So it's kind of like a combination of like a Git repo and like a federated, you know, matrix server or something like that, right? Explorers, right? Where I can basically show someone kind of like the security transfers of these assets basically, and they show me the proofs that it's actually stepped onto the chain itself, and they can't, you know, they can't really fake the proofs because once again, you use kind of like digital signatures to make sure like, you know, all the parties that are authorized to actually, you know, have like a valid authorization to do it, do so itself. That's a pretty cool structure there as far as being, people being able to kind of like, you know, watch on-chain for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:57", "start": 1497.01, "text": "Yeah, really interesting. So if I understand you correctly, then it's essentially using like digital signatures and this tree structure and this kind of idea of watching the chain to make sure that there isn't no, let's say, funny business going on with people like issuing more than what there really is, because you would know, right? You would see, okay, that coin moved or that, that, that- Like, UTXO was spent, yeah, the output was spent, and here's actually the new one you need to look at, and that's actually the true state of this, you know, coin, whatever coin we're issuing or talking about here, if it's a stable coin, right?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "25:32", "start": 1532.05, "text": "Yeah, and you can say like, you know, the issuers are kind of incentivized to maintain the universe themselves, because otherwise, like, individuals maybe won't really use anything, they don't really, or if they aren't able to kind of audit what's really going on there, right As far as like publishing their own, you know, reserves or kind of like their own backing or things like that as well, too. This is kind of like a similar contract, so like, you know, in addition to them like publishing their, like, you know, bank statements or like, you know, whatever, treasury bills they're holding as well, too, they're also gonna be posting these on-chain proofs that show basically this digital supply of the current thing. And then I, I kind of, I can see individuals kind of, you know, kind of cross, cross-checking those Like, you know, fetch that data off-chain, and, you know, that's kind of like another story as far as, like, you know, how you actually query that data, you know, how you discover it, exactly, is there some cyber-like, cyber-like standardized API for you to get that data as well too? But as far as like you being able to kind of, you know, see everything on-chain, so it goes back to the problem, it's also relying on the property, the core property of Bitcoin, where you take those never be double, be double-spent" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:49", "start": 1608.88, "text": "Taro network would operate. So, I guess presumably this would be built in with LND, let's say. So, let's say I have LND and you have LND and we, we create like a Taro channel, like, could you explain how Taro channels would work as opposed to just Bitcoin Lightning channels?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "27:04", "start": 1623.55, "text": "Regular, yeah, yeah. Super great question. you know, first, it's kind of a thing where, you know, it will be kind of like in, like the LND, you can get a suite and binary as well, too. But, One time implementation stuff as well, too. We got a lot, like, we got a lot of feedback as well, too. And I think the other thing I'll try to do with the spec, I'll, I'll try to make sure, you know, it's just kind of like, you know, it's easy to understand the problems the most possible as well, too, in order to make sure we have other implementation in the future, right? Because if, if we're just doing it, it's not really that cool. We kind of" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "27:36", "start": 1655.72, "text": "like need like the more of that network effect basically We can kind of like, you know, sign like what's the expected refund transaction to make sure that, you know, if you and I go offline, we can basically publish that and get our money back, right? So, you know, so then you kind of like have insight where it's like, okay, well, you know, Terra assets are actually also just living in UTXOs themselves, right? So let's say I have, like, you know, Beef Bucks, and I" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "28:13", "start": 1693.3, "text": "have, like, my UTXO, right? And let's say you, Creates a new, output which basically now this multisig output itself, right? But the thing is, like, you know, like, as I mentioned before, like, Taro assets are actually stored in the tap script tree of a given asset, of a given output, right? So now whenever I make that new output, I should make sure we have that same commitment basically in that, output which is the multisig tree itself. So let's say we have like a two of two, you know, Schnorr type of thing basically, so it's actually one single" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "28:49", "start": 1728.86, "text": "Pointing back to like my prior location of the asset itself, right? So I also have to have a signature there to basically prove the network, okay, well, you know, I had my money here and I moved it over here. So now at this point, we, we kind of like have this, you know, two of two that has no more Bitcoin in it, but then also has commitment to, this taro asset as well. So now similarly, you know, as far as the refund transaction, the refund transaction is created, that also kind of, you know, sends, you Like the conditions are basically look, look exactly the same, where I do like, you know, whatever CLI open channel, it'll be between you and I, we, we kind of have that, you know, that funds committed. But now it's kind of a thing where I have like an extra balance on my side of things, right? We have the normal Bitcoin balance, we also have this B- B-Box balance as well, too. Then, but then, you know, from that, everything is mapped more or less one to one. You know, today, like, you know, The H T L C, you know, maybe it's committing to kind of like what's just, you know, like, right above dust, maybe it's like, you know, five hundred, five hundred Satoshi's, but internally it's also committing to that larger amount of, you know, of like my, my taro asset, my taro asset, but also, now we're also inheriting that same script, the H T L C script, kind of like the time, the timeout or the premature reveal also within that taro layer as well, too. So The JSON RPC or the GRPC basically that shows our particular, you know, asset, you know, field. So, so at that point now, we basically have, you know, a, a channel that has like a Bitcoin, maybe it has like, you know, five other assets, maybe it has, you know, Naira T or, you know, or U, USD, whatever else, something else in there as well too, and this should be like, you know, very, done very, very, you know, closely. So one of Network that has, you know, one network for this asset, one network for this asset, whatever else. But I think that was kind of like, you know, something that would, kind of like, not really benefit network effects, network effects of Bitcoin and Lightning, right? But what we're, we're setting up today is like, you know, rather than the assets actually existing in the internal of the network itself, they only exist at the edges, right? Which is really cool, 'cause for example, like, you know, let's say you have a node, you wanna" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "31:19", "start": 1878.7, "text": "That's fine, right? This is also cool because now, like, you know, you kind of like push a lot of complexity to the edges, rather than like updating the light network itself and like adding a bunch of things, right? You know, for as far as like exchange rates, tickers, you know, things like that, and kind of building things a little bit more, yeah, everything's actually, you know, fully at the edges, kind of like uses like this, this isn't kind of like, you know, invoice or like, you know, hop in or blind route mechanism to Of lightning itself, because, you know, no matter at the end of the day, whenever I'm sending like an asset, like let's say I'm sending B bucks, you know, that's still actually using lightning or using Bitcoin to like trans- to transact to the other side. So all of a sudden now, you know, Bitcoin and lightning become this like very, like, you know, fundamental like crossing layer, right? Of like, let's say maybe it's like all the world's currencies are all, you know, assets that people actually want to send between each other, that's all It's transaction activity, yeah, just right. So I think it's like, you know, if this thing takes off and is very successful, this will actually trend, this will actually lead to like, you know, more routing nodes, more lightning capacity, more routing revenue, and just more real tangible opportunities for individuals running routing nodes or maybe other building other protocols or kind of like services on top of lightning itself." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:33", "start": 1952.99, "text": "Okay, gotcha. So Just to clarify my understanding there, so let's say you and I have a Taro channel in addition to our normal Lightning channel, and then let's say I want to route some Taro asset, let's say I've got some beef box, and I wanna route them to somebody else, like through you, but let's say not every channel along that route is a Taro channel, 'cause some of those might just be standard Bitcoin Lightning channels. And so what you're saying is only the person at the very end of that route, like the person I'm paying the beef box and me, have to Lightning or the Taro spec, is that right or how, how does that work?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "33:08", "start": 1988.02, "text": "Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's correct. And so you can, you can say, like, you can say, like, you know, every like Taro channel is also a Lightning channel, but not necessarily the other way around, right? 'Cause like, you know, in order to work, it's like, like, you know, Lightning actually takes all transaction fees in Bitcoin, and also Bitcoin chain takes all transaction fees in Bitcoin as well, too, right? So Bitcoin is The network itself, right? So the way it works is like, you know, you, there's kind of a concept of like, you know, inbound and outbound liquidity in the network itself, right? You know, in-inbound is basically, you know, what you could, what you can receive kind of, the kind of currency you receive, but outbound is basically what you can send to another individual. So let's say you wanna send, you know, you have, we have like a channel, you have some B bucks, you wanna send it to your cousin, you know, somewhere else The final hop, the second to last hop, takes that Bitcoin in, then produces a, you know, a beef buck or a taro or a Celsius to the other side, right? So it's kind of a thing you basically just cross in like, you know, those two areas basically, but everything else in, in the middle is actually just pure Bitcoin, right? and the way this works, like, you know, for example, the receiver would, would then give you an invoice, and that invoice would basically, you know, know what type of asset, you know, they An unadvertised channel that is really on the main God's network, and that's the user channel, right? And they say, okay, well, in order for me to get to you, I go to Breeze, and the last hop is over to you," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:43", "start": 2083.0, "text": "that's," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "34:48", "start": 2088.01, "text": "on that chain. So that's, that's like a similar routing hint, right? Or it is a routing hint. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it is a routing hint. But, you know, you know, the other technology we're working on, things like, you know, called blinded We, we didn't really need to kind of like, you know, add a bunch more routing data or kind of, you know, graftage to the actual chain, it's, to the, the light network itself, because I transmit to you how to get to me in that hop head basically, which is part of that invoice structure. So once again, so it's gonna be very familiar, people gonna scan that, you know, QR code basically, it's gonna pop up, it's like, \"Do you wanna send blah? \" And they can send it. But they give the receiver Bitcoin. This is cool because if we're all of a sudden like, let's say we're kind of like in the stablecoin land, I can actually just send Bitcoin and the other party receives that stablecoin, right? So for me, like, I've been Bitcoin all the way basically. I don't really care, like, I'm still getting the good, whatever, but I'm still like, you know, using, you know, my preferred currency, but the other individual also selecting exactly what they want to receive as well, too. So it's" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "35:58", "start": 2157.93, "text": "really Similarly, you can now basically use Lightning Network like the network to transmit, you know, other assets basically, but only, you know, actually manifesting at the other edge. It's really cool because I was saying, now, like, you know, let's say, okay, people wanted to come up, you know, we don't have credit cards, but they still maybe want that, like, you know, stable value or the USD on the other side, they can actually then still use the Lightning Network as kind of like this, like, you know, kind of like monetary backbone" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:35", "start": 2194.8, "text": "On that point, how would it work in the case where, let's say, you're the Bitcoin user and you're paying like a stablecoin, like how would the exchange rate work in that example?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "36:43", "start": 2202.64, "text": "Good question, right? So, you know, today, let's say I, I'm paying something in Lightning, right? Like, let's say for whatever reason, like, you know, it's actually quoted in USD, I'm like buying like a gift card or maybe like, you know, paying for like, you know, like a, a podcast or like that Looks good, five sat, you know, something like that, right? But like at the end of the day, like they actually are making that conversion on that end, right? So they'll be, they'll kind of be a similar thing, right? Where you, you know, the individual basically, you know, quote me in that particular, you know, in that particular currency basically, and also have like that Bitcoin amount, right? So now it's my job basically get that Bitcoin, you know, all the way to that second or final hop basically, and that individual is then Let's say there's another situation, like let's say, you know, I was like sending Bitcoin basically, and then for whatever reason, you know, USD crashed, which means, you know, Bitcoin went up, right? So then, you know, but at that point now, there's maybe there's like an insufficient amount of, like, you know, you know, at, at that last edges. So much like today, if I were, if someone like had like an invoice, like, you know, ten Satoshi and I said nine, they're gonna cancel that back, I'm receiving my wallet, I need to know exactly what that is so I can actually have like a proper reference rate basically. But also today, you know, every single Bitcoin wallet probably already hits some API somewhere to show a fiat balance if the user wants to, right? So you already kind of like, you know, have that link embedded in the system itself. So it's kind of like a thing where it's like, you know, the user needs to verify exactly, you know, how much they're sending over, which they should be doing today anyway if they're getting like an invoice quoted from someone" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:35", "start": 2315.16, "text": "Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, even today, if, if a merchant today only wants to receive Bitcoin, but they charge and denominate the price in USD, so as an example, you wanna buy this, whatever, t-shirt for twenty dollars, they're just gonna show you the Bitcoin equivalent amount of that, and then you, the customer, are just paying that amount. So it's the same kind of thing, it's the same kind of idea that if they want, let's say, twenty dollars worth of Taro Beef Box And then they just show you the QR for the sat-- Satoshi's equivalent, however many sats that is, what thirty thousand sats or whatever that is. Then the customer is just scanning, \"Oh, okay, I'm paying thirty thousand sats, pay.\" And then on the other end, it's all done. So I guess that's, that's kind of a similar flow there in terms of for the user. So just thinking out loud, in terms of if, let's say for the developing world or people wanna build a service, right? If they're a builder listening to the podcast and A wallet that has a Bitcoin balance and Taro USD or a Lightning USD balance, and maybe they would have to then think about, okay, which stablecoin am I going to plug into, or am I going to create my own stablecoin and then provide a service or create this into a package that's into a wallet where they give this to people, let's say, in the developing world who want this kind of thing, or even maybe people in the developed world who want to be able to quickly flip between USD and Bitcoin and just have it all in one wallet. Exactly, exactly." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "39:59", "start": 2399.27, "text": "Yeah, I mean, They have the option to make their own, they're probably not gonna make their own because there's kind of like, you know, other entities that are kind of like, you know, already have that sort of like trust anchor basically. So, you know, once again, like, you know, we're not necessarily like saying it's gonna be this and this and this. I think we have other individuals that kind of recognize the ability and also like, they're, you know, they're also interested in coming back to Bitcoin generally as well too, 'cause they're on these other chains, the At the end of the day, like stablecoins actually started on Bitcoin in the first place, right? They went elsewhere just because maybe the API wasn't that great, or maybe they thought they had faster block and whatever else, but obviously they have Lightning, which is like the fastest, you know, way to move, you know, money generally, you know, around the world basically. So I think it's really cool we have to bring that back and kind of try to network, network effect, and then at the same time also, you know, generate more just demand for block space as well generally" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "40:57", "start": 2456.55, "text": "too," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:01", "start": 2460.84, "text": "So in a moment, have you thought about multi-signature security for your Bitcoin? With Unchained Capital, you can do this easily. So with multi-signature, you can create a two-of-three multi-signature vault where you hold two keys in different locations, of course, and Unchained hold the third key. And when you do this setup, you need two of the keys to sign in order to spend your Bitcoin. So this can reduce single points of failure and give you that confidence, that peace of mind, that your coins aren't going to be lost even if you make one mistake with your Your Bitcoin. So Unchained dot com is where you can go to find out the material and the website. They also have a lot of educational material that you can find, such as Parker Lewis' series Gradually, Then Suddenly. That website is Unchained dot com. If you're looking for Bitcoin hardware, you can't go past CoinKite dot com. CoinKite are the creators of the Coldcard, which is a very popular signing device or hardware wallet, as some are used to calling it. The Coldcard can be used in various configurations, and what you'll find Mind is when you use the cold card, you actually end up learning more about Bitcoin because in order to use it, you might need to learn a little bit more about what an xPub is or how to move that information back and forth between the cold card and your computer. And the new version, the MK4, is coming out, it's shipping out to people now. So if you wanna order that, you wanna go and see the webpage on the website. Don't forget it's got some new features, it has upgraded RAM and an upgraded processor, it's got two secure elements, and it also has convenient for those of you who want to use it as a warm wallet setup or to use it to help create your multi-signature setup. So that website, coinkite dot com. Back to the show with Laolu. Yeah. One other question, I think you might have touched on this before, but in terms of things like on-chain fallback, right? So as an example, let's say you and I have this Taro channel, and let's say I'm very bad at operating my node and maybe it, it's going offline all the time, or for whatever reason you need to close it down on-chain and take your assets back, how would that work in a Taro context? Like, let's say there's some beef bucks on my side of the channel, you need to unilaterally close, to, you Is it basically the same kind of idea, fourth close, you just take back your amount on chain or what?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "43:16", "start": 2595.68, "text": "good question. Yeah, I mean, so once again, it's basically the same idea, right? So like, you know, there's two different ways you can close the channel. One is basically like the co-op close, where we basically, okay, we're both online, we can sign that signature. In this case, you know, we basically both sign, okay, well, you know, I had point two taro, you know, or like Bepox, you One of us maybe needs to wait for that CSV time, but once again, like, you know, we've made, we've had the exact same one-to-one mapping of things like CSV and Bitcoin script into the tower layer as well, too. So it's a very, very familiar construct, right? and I guess one other thing, you know, you can say is like, I think one thing that people, I think like Casper and Taproot wise now is kind of like combining, like, you know, something called Bip twenty-one with kind of regular light, lightning invoices, We're kind of like, you know, instructions basically of how to construct a Bitcoin output, right? We've had like the original, you know, Bitcoin one, we had the three, which is like a, you know, P2WSH multisig, now we have like, you know, Bech32, Bech32, which is for Taproot, right? So, and so, you know, then they, those, those basically say, okay, well, here's my public key, this is how you construct the output on chain, and then I can send to you, The amount, things like that as well, too. Things that let you basically construct the initial, tree commitment itself, but I also give you, you know, the internal key, right? And people, people that don't know this, we call an internal key in Taproot, you basically take the internal key and then combine that with like the script commitment basically, and then get an output key, right? So similarly now, I can basically give you all the information necessary for you to construct like a valid Taro leaf that I can spend, and then you send it on-chain. Now, for" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "45:11", "start": 2711.16, "text": "Improvements off-chain basically maybe I can spend that as well too. So once again, like, you know, we always try to make sure that like we're trying to like retain a very, very f-familiar flow. So it's gonna look like a BCT address, maybe it's gonna be BCTaro instead of, you know, BCT or, or Q, whatever it is today, right? So like once again, I'm always thinking about like m-m-making sure things are easy, easy to understand and also making sure that people can, like, you know, also just take things up" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:41", "start": 2740.98, "text": "Privacy benefits as well. Like hypothetically, if someone were to create, like, I know it's a bit weird, but it's like that whole, exhibit, I put this in your, whatever, multiple layers. If you created Bitcoin on the Taro network, yeah, the Yo Dog, right? Like, I heard you like this, I've made, yeah. But like, what if you created, like, Taro Bitcoin on the Taro network and you used that to send Bitcoin around? Like, would that actually-- I don't know, maybe that's a bit of a crazy" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "46:11", "start": 2770.98, "text": "I would say that like, you know, you would kind of like mass the true value amount, 'cause maybe like you would see six hundred Satoshi's move on chain, but actually, it's actually like, you know, one BTC. So it's definitely possible. I guess kind of like ergonomics, wise, exactly how that would work or, but it's totally feasible. I remember like I was like describing, you know, Taro to someone, that kind of, kind of worked in the industry, and they were joking, okay, like, you know, should we make Giving people those like new tools they can mess around with as far as like, \"Oh, what if I can do this? \" And today, they maybe they can go and actually make it out in public, and that'd be something, you know, cool as far as like them exploring things. But, yeah, like there's, there, there could be something there as far as like, kind of like sending more value than you really know is also, I mean, a thing where maybe someone wants to kind of like do some AR thing, but they're, you know, sending it on chain, they" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "47:07", "start": 2827.16, "text": "And so I mentioned that like earlier, like let's say you're sending it to me, you're sending, you know, something like B bucks or Taro to me on chain, right? Like I kind of like, you know, have that new commitment basically like creating the output. The end of the day, you also need to send enough Bitcoin for it to be non-dust. That's kind of, kind of a very critical thing, right? So it's like, you know, I'm getting like, you know, a thousand USD or something like that, I still need at least six hundred Asset for BTC, so then pay on chain for mining fees as well too. So that's kind of like a thing where, I think maybe some services will develop in the future as far as, you know, kind of like collecting the random assets and giving people the equivalent of BTC on to basically pay on chain, 'cause at the end of the day, you still need to pay fees, in Bitcoin, and you can't get away from that, right? So that's always like where everything's anchored in Bitcoin at the end of the day, and you may have some dust, near-dust" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:04", "start": 2883.96, "text": "outputs Services, you know, like Loop and Bolts and others out there, right? Exactly," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "48:11", "start": 2890.97, "text": "yeah, exactly. And I think people will make even other kind of swap services as well, too, 'cause once again, like it's a fully open protocol, so someone can say, okay, well, I wanna support, you know, USD Tower swaps on Chain, and they can kind of, you know, have, once again, like a non-custodial protocol, let's people come, you know, move that, value on Chain, 'cause once again, it's basically just like a Products, with Bitcoin itself, which is what we need at the end of the day, because obviously, you know, you know, custodians, you know, they may get shut down one day. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:45", "start": 2924.59, "text": "yeah, of course. Also, just implementations-wise, I guess one thing that's needed for Taro to work is to see that, you know, lots of different implementations, I guess, are using it so that it's not just becoming like an LND only thing, right? So I guess that's part of the approach, is the, is the hope to make it, Around, which protocol becomes the, like, you know, used and liquid, right? I guess that's, that's probably the key barrier, I guess, because once you get a, enough of a volume of people using this, then, okay, it starts to grow." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "49:20", "start": 2959.81, "text": "Yeah, exactly. You know, protocols have momentum in their effects. Bitcoin was one of the first ones and, you know, had like a bunch of, like, you know, very, you know, attracting things around, like, you know, the initial creation as far as the creator itself and like" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "49:37", "start": 2976.86, "text": "This is it, you know, come on board or else. But like, you know, I think it's very important for us basically make sure we drop the spec first, basically allow people to like, number one, understand independently of like our particular code, our particular code, you know, you know, poke at particular things, you know, understand them, so they can also decide on their own if they wanna implement or not, right? And also, in the end of the day, because like there's actually like a, a, a spec that's, you know, kind of like defining everything that" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "50:07", "start": 3006.92, "text": "I was kind of worried we wouldn't really get as much scrutiny and just kind of like attention as we would by, by going through this himself, right? So, you know, given that like that stuff's there, and like we're all trying to make sure that things, things are as clear as possible, you know, now even with our implementation, I'm still making like, you know, PRs in the spec to make sure things are clear that came up during the implementation itself, right? So, I think that was very important for us to, you know, for us to be seeing more of I think it's actually, as far as on-chain taro it, itself, we also have something called like a blip, which is kind of like, you know, like a lightning, improvement proposal as well too, kind of like a lightning side. This is gonna define effectively kind of like an optional extensions to the base bolt protocol to basically like allow your lightning clients to be aware of taro as well too. So if someone can implement basically both that on-chain, bip and then also kind of like, you know, the optional lightning extensions as well too, then" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:07", "start": 3067.22, "text": "Yeah. and one other area, just in terms of protocol competition, I'm curious if you have any thoughts. So there is this idea of Omni Bolt, and I think that's something that the Synonym team are kind of putting out, and so I'm curious your view is, is Taro like a competing thing with them or is it just like a different thing? Like, how are you viewing that?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "51:26", "start": 3086.16, "text": "good question. I'd say it's like a different thing, 'cause, you know, you can say like, you know, for Omni Bolt, obviously they already had Two, I think, you know, from my point of view, I think it's kind of like, you know, benefit in being able to kind of like start anew and kind of like have that beginner's mind basically, not necessarily inherit, you know, the sciences that were made, you know, ten plus years ago basically for the particular system itself, right? But you can say, like, you know, given that, like, they're all in Bitcoin itself, there's a possibility for them to actually be interoperable, right? Maybe there's some type of bridge, maybe there's some But is there a possibility where, in the end of the day, like, you know, someone can actually have something where they can, like, you know, move assets between these different chains, or sorry, between these different systems? I think it's definitely possible. I think it kind of like depending exactly, you know, where the momentum and where the network effects actually are and if there's an incentive to do that or not, 'cause if people are using one thing, then maybe they can do the other thing, but it would be kind of like for a smaller portion of like the economy or" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:28", "start": 3148.38, "text": "Cool. okay, so those most of the questions I had around Taro, I wanna chat a little bit just around the Lightning Network as well, just to get your view on where things are at. So some feedback I'm hearing from people I chat with is they are perhaps critical of the payment reliability in Lightning, and so I think it seems like, but, but it really varies who I talk to, right? Because there are some people I talk to, they say, \"I don't have any issues, you know, it all works for me.\" And then other people are saying, \"No" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:58", "start": 3178.02, "text": "difference between like people who are running like really big nodes and like, let's say people who are running more like just an individual routing node, I'm curious if that's something you're seeing and any thoughts around payment reliability in the Lightning Network." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "53:10", "start": 3190.24, "text": "so good question. I mean, so for example, you know, we run something called Loop, right? And the other day, like, you know, people basically need to kind of like be able to reach Loop's server in order to pay a fee, in order, in order to be able to use the service in general. So we actually track our And like that's kind of like the initial amount people can like move in and basically be able to like, you know, free up, a space on their in balance, basically would receive, receive more BTC. We've seen that go up, you know, a lot as well too, right? So now we see even at times like up to like one BTC come across in a swap, which is unheard of, you know, two or so years ago as far as like doing, you know, large amounts of, you know, payments, you know, as well too. But, you So, you know, if I have like bad channels, like some like very like dead end area of the graph, I, you know, I might as well not really start, right? So I think it's the number one thing to basically like, you know, make sure your channels are set up properly. I think the other thing as well is like, you know, we've definitely seen a lot more kind of research in the past like year or so in the pathfinding space in general, right?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "54:20", "start": 3259.73, "text": "For example, you know, people know Renee Picard, who, you know, At the end of the day, it very much does depend on like the amounts too. So like, you know, you can say probably like one Satoshi is gonna work, right? Because one Satoshi is like, you know, we have like people that have like two BTC channels now, one Satoshi is basically nothing. When I just start to get to that amount, and this also kind of like some of what the probability theory that he's been, driving shows, you kind of like have like a drop off in the probability of success there, right? But then like, you know, something like MPP And for next referrals, their reliability is, you know, pretty high, as far as getting payments in, and also kinda like depends on the amount as well too. But definitely something obvious like we wanted to like, you know, be a lot more uniform, right? It shouldn't just matter, you know, if you're in the right place, like, you know, it's the right time or something like that. It should just kind of, you know, generally work. I think we're working on, on like a number of kinda like other things on the, the spec level The future. But, you know, I would say definitely, remember like, you know, we were at the Lightning conference, you know, in twenty nineteen, if you compare then to now, I think it's like very, very, you know, it's, it's a very different playing field as far as like, you know, reliability. I think all the wallets are a lot better now as far as, you know, people, you know, doing things as far as, like, you know, you're doing, doing notifications or kind of like, you know, background async But I think the other thing too, it very much depends on like, you know, what the topology looks like. So you can say, okay, very, very simple case, let's say we store everything out, we, we basically we'd have three nodes, right? And just A, B, C, boom, everything would work. Obviously, that'd be horrible for the centralization, like you'd get shut down, things like that as well, too. But so I think like, you know, I think certain, I know certain, you know, wallets or implementations, I think maybe, maybe it drops down if you're gonna pay like some other random node in the network itself, right? So maybe, you know, you don't really have any like, you know, pathfinding cash, you don't really know how to get them. But so it's definitely it would depend on kind of some of those factors. But I would say like we're definitely, you know, in a, much better place than we were a few years ago, just due to like a lot of new research, also I think just due to like existing maturity of implementation and also people understanding So I think sometimes, I think maybe that's all the case where people don't realize, okay, well, you know, I wanna receive, you know, ten BTC and I only have one inbound basically. I think we're working on making those two a lot more easily, as far as like giving people, you know, access to better things like automation, and just general, you know, liquidity management as well too, because like, you know, you can't really just set and forget a Lightning node, you need to be doing something to it if you're" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:16", "start": 3436.25, "text": "gonna be using a lot more serious Sovereign reason, I think some of those users are seeing it like where even if they do have channels, they're still struggling to get that payment through and, and that, that size. So it, but it's very confusing because some people see this issue and other people don't see it at all. So it's quite, yeah, it's, I guess it's unusual to me, but I guess it comes down to who your channels are with and maybe if that other node doesn't have the right connections." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "57:48", "start": 3468.33, "text": "No, definitely, and that's something we're definitely still working on as far as like" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "57:58", "start": 3478.04, "text": "Delegate securely, kind of like automation of the node, maybe do things like updating fees, opening channels, you know, closing from bad peers, things like that as well too. So I think once that gets a lot easier, I think by the end of the year we'll be like in a pretty good position as far as that itself. That'd be more of kind of like the, you know, easy button to not forget. You know, for example, you know, let's say you get a new router today, like you don't go into your router and like modify the routing table and look" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "58:22", "start": 3502.27, "text": "at like" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "58:28", "start": 3508.16, "text": "Versus like you take over every single like, you know, little, parameter to make sure things are working properly in your, in the network." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:33", "start": 3512.98, "text": "Yeah, that's fair. and wanna chat a little bit about this whole CTV debacle, which has really flared up recently, and, so I think there's different parts to, understand here. Like, firstly, it's like, do people want covenants? Do people want CTV? And then, what's the actual appropriate way to go about activation? And was it too early? So, maybe" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:58", "start": 3538.14, "text": "Like, are you broadly in favor of that? What are your thoughts on just that first idea?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "59:03", "start": 3543.32, "text": "Definitely, you know, as far as governance period, like, me, I'm all for them, 'cause I think like anyone that's kind of like, you know, done, you know, more serious kind of like, you know, protocol development on, on like Bitcoin itself has kind of like, you know, sought the need for kind of like that extra level of like, you know, capability and kind of like power as well, too. But I think, I think the one thing" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "59:26", "start": 3565.53, "text": "that Reversals don't make sure it doesn't actually like, you know, somehow cannibalize the short Bitcoin, you know, itself, right? And so I think that's one thing, I think it's kind of like, I think an inevitability. So I think in the past few years, people discovered, okay, well, if we had introduced, you know, this and this and this, just, you know, because of reversals, them in combination can actually produce something that's basically like a fairly like powerful covenant, right? But I think, you know, I think That's gonna like destroy the system, right? I think now people are like, \"Oh, well, like, you know, I understand them more, and I just kind of like understand exactly like how they work generally.\" I think one thing that people don't really know is like, if you look at something like CSV and CLTV, how we can say the two things credited along with like SegWit as far as making Lightning possible, those are actually covenants themselves, right? But they're just very limited covenants, right? So CSV and CLTV basically require that the transaction has a I think it's a very thing because, like, I guess in my opinion, I think like, you know, covenants are kind of like the more, like, the natural way that you would express more advanced contracts on Bitcoin generally, right? I think the cool thing about is, like, you know, rather than like, you know, having this crazy, you know, account system of like, you know, anything can be calling anything else, your re-entry, all these, you know, different random calls, you basically know exactly what's" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:00:49", "start": 3649.69, "text": "going on, right? So covenants Okay, well, you know, send to this address, it's doing this and this and this, but it must end in n steps, right? 'Cause you basically must, you know, basically create the entire reduction graph and then compile that down to a single hash and then put that into the chain, right? There's other covenants where people call it kind of like a recursive covenant, where it's kind of like, you know, self-propagating, right? Meaning that, like, okay, let's say I wanna have a covenant that says, well, you know, you can send Like, I think people, you know, get wrong as far as covenants, like, you know, people kind of like have this, like, you know, fear as far as like, you know, gray goo covenants, right? It was kind of like the covenant that's gonna, like, gonna take over all the Bitcoin clients or everything else itself, right? And like maybe prevent people from using it. But at the end of the day, like, you know, if, if I'm like, you know, me as a receiver, I generate the receiving address, right Have this like viral process and destroy the Bitcoin, like that's, that's not possible, right? So I think that's one thing that, you know, people, you know, miss out on. But governance generally, I think it's, I think yes, I think it's inevitability. I, I can say, like, I think probably like one of the, discussions around like, aside of like, like, should it be done, it's okay, well, you know, how should it be done? Should we have the more kind of restricted version or should we go for It's unclear to me if, if people are like, you know, this open arms about the very like restrictive version, how can the more powerful one really even have a, a, a chance at all, right? 'Cause like, you know, it's also the thing, should we go from like zero to a hundred, or should we go from zero to one and then see what that looks like itself? But obviously, there's kind of questions around, okay, what's the timeline like? What's activation look like? Do we want the particular thing? What are the alternatives, things like that as" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:02:58", "start": 3778.06, "text": "First, some people want to go the super version, some people go with the restricted one. I would say that's probably where the developers lie as far as like, okay, I think most developers think it's a good idea, covenants generally, they'd maybe disagree on, okay, should we try to like do the best thing possible right now and incorporate all the feedback and have the most generalized version, or should we do kind of like do the bare incremental one, you know, give us some like additional capabilities on the Bitcoin level, but also like not create something that we don't really understand fully." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:03:28", "start": 3808.04, "text": "Example or covenants could bring for, let's say, lightning, like as an example, could it help with scalability or could it help with people self-custodying their coins in some way?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:03:39", "start": 3819.04, "text": "yeah, I would say definitely, right? Yeah, so like covenants let you kind of like restrict exactly like what the spending type should be like in the future, right? So for example, in, in CTV's example, I said, okay, well, you know, you can spend this alpha, but the lock time must be blah, and that means you can only spend" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:03:55", "start": 3835.35, "text": "it Developer, currencies in general. So like, let's say on the lightning end, things like, so one thing that happens is like, you know, people are aware like, you know, so like every HLC is actually a new output in the, in the commitment contract itself, right? So like, let's say I had like a thousand pending payments, those would actually all be pending payments in the commitment contract itself, right? And so like, and as people know, every time you add new output, it basically increases the number of bytes in the contract itself, which makes it a Like, you know, let's say we can look at, like, what something like C-C-CCTV would do. Instead of like, you know, having all the outputs on that top level basically, I can have one output, right? And then one output says, okay, well, eventually all of these HLCs will be unrolled on chain, right? And it's really cool. For example, because like, you know, HLCs have like a, like a, a timeout, right? A time lock, right? So I can basically construct the tree such that, like," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:04:58", "start": 3898.02, "text": "So let's, let's say a few blocks passes, I say, okay, well, I'm gonna like, you know, unroll two HTLCs, put them on chain to timeout, and then everything else goes back into this other, you know, output, right? I can continue to do that over time, basically. This is really cool because now rather than me paying for that chain fee at that particular time, maybe it was very, very high fees, I can kind of like defer that chain fee in the future and also make sure that I'm only putting as much data onto the chain as Where Torbert charge is the existence of Taproot, right? So basically like using the I can basically commit to kind of like n different paths in the actual Taproot tree itself, and each path can also commit to another, path as well too. So like let's say, okay, I wanna have like the five, five Satoshi provide, you know, HLC unroll, I can do this branch. Let's say I wanna do the twenty Satoshi HLC unroll, I can do this branch as well too. So it's kind of like a very useful thing" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:05:52", "start": 3952.03, "text": "to, to be able to Like a vault, which basically effectively lets you kind of like, you know, have like a set of different keys. Maybe one key is required to, to move, you know, coins on chain, but if you, maybe like, you know, you kind of like have this other case, we have like another key, and that key lets you kind of like, you know, move the coins, but maybe in a more restricted manner as well, too. So I definitely think it's like a very useful construct generally. I think people disagree on, in terms of like, you know, how powerful should the Where it's like, you know, I think people sometimes want a more orderly process. I don't think it's ever gonna be orderly, right? It's always gonna be somewhat messy, right? You know, doesn't that just have to be discussed in public basically? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So yeah, it would be nice to have like the scheduled software, you know, every nine months or whatever in the past, maybe we have like a little more coordination, but, you know, I think it will always be somewhat messy, but I think, you know, what's important is like Yeah, as they said, you know, one doesn't simply change Bitcoin itself, right? But I think, you know, I think the, to me, I think the positive thing is like, now I think people are, like, are discussing like what type of covenants versus should we do covenants at all, which I think is a massive, you know, just pro-progression in kind of like the general discourse of the level, level, also the level of education of any individual as well, too. I think there's also some questions around like, okay, you know, Kicking the can down the road with, you know, something like speed trial and getting it working, but people never fully answered that question. You know, will the question be answered, like, in, in a general, manner? Maybe not. I think it's always gonna be, okay, the next particular thing, be-- because you can say, like, just, just because we did something in the past doesn't mean we'll do it again in the future, right? There's no requirement that we use any other thing, you know," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:07:49", "start": 4069.93, "text": "as well." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:07:53", "start": 4073.99, "text": "Like, we, we So like, don't feel like there's an urgency, like there's not urgency either, okay, well, Bitcoin's perfect, whatever else. I think other individuals kind of like, you know, recognize that like, okay, Bitcoin's getting bigger, things are moving progressively, progressing as well too, but so are the adversaries. Adversaries are becoming more targeted, right? They're doing, you know, energy fund, they're doing, they're funding stuff, you know, change the code or things like that as well too. They're getting, you know, more, you Counterargument to, okay, well, we can take fifteen years, like, okay, well, you know, fifteen years from now, like, what's, what's the landscape gonna really be looking like? I think like also like in the past year or two, all of a sudden Bitcoins are really just kinda like, you know, rocketed to like the global, you know, standpoint. You know, people talking about, okay, people using Bitcoin in Ukraine, you know, are they getting around sanctions? Are they doing it for real or not? It's" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:08:51", "start": 4131.95, "text": "kind of a thing where it's I think there's a somewhat of like a, you know, risk of like us not doing enough to like make sure Bitcoin can scale or can, you know, scale at the, at the, at the transactional level, it scale from the users as far as their own self-sufficiency and custody as well too. So obviously there's a balance to be struck. you know, I don't really have the answers, but I think there's kind of like some parameters that people, you know, are considering as far as like what this, when that, and things like that before. Those other things at that particular time, right? 'Cause they don't wanna take away from that attention of getting things, getting things, getting things done. Now I think that's exactly, but now I think in some people are like, okay, well, you know, are we gonna be doing other stuff? And like, you know, is there like a next list? Is there a this and this and this? Probably not necessarily, but I think there are things that people think are interesting and that have been discussed for a while and w-would want to see, you know, actually be implemented on Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:09:58", "start": 4198.04, "text": "Does it help scalability? Does it help things like self-sovereignty? And if it helps those things, then maybe that's the argument, right? Like so theoretically, if you-- if it allows and speeds the creation of vaults, then that's a good thing for self-custody. Or if it allows the massive creation of many new lightning channels using CTV, yeah, or, or even like you were mentioning the congestion control case where you're trying to gracefully shut down the lightning node as opposed to like a very rough kind of abrupt kind of, it's like, you know? So it's like having ABS technology on the car, allow you to gracefully slow down instead of like," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:10:33", "start": 4233.74, "text": "like versus flying out the windshield, like," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:10:35", "start": 4235.94, "text": "right? Oh, like, so, you know, you could sort of see an argument there for some of these things, but I think it seems to me, as, you know, from my standpoint, it seems like the developer community is, seems to be very on board with CTV, with certain, what, notable exceptions, to be clear, but the users haven't been brought on board, and perhaps that was the, maybe that was the mistake, is Or the ecosystem really wanted it, right? With SegWit and Taproot, it was very clear the ecosystem overwhelmingly wanted this thing. But with CTV, I think maybe there's maybe more work to be done to actually get people on board, and maybe that's an education journey, and there might be people who are just like, \"No, we don't even want that, right?\" But, I think that's maybe that's where I'm, I'm sort of seeing it, where I'm kind of mildly pro-CTV, but I'm not like, I, I think pushing" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:11:28", "start": 4288.04, "text": "Much too soon." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:11:28", "start": 4288.98, "text": "So I would say like, I think developers have known about the concept for a while, for maybe like three or four years now, right? As far as like, you know, is the thing, you know, potentially coming to a roll. I can definitely see how someone that like wasn't following, you know, things like PLEFI and like the low level memos for roll, they're like, okay, what's this thing all of a sudden here? So, I mean, it's just kind of a thing where, you know, maybe there was too much, you" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:11:57", "start": 4317.36, "text": "know You can't like please everybody, but you can at least try, you know, take stock of exactly, you know, where things are somewhat, you know, defective as far as like, you know, more clear communication or something like that as well, too. But I will say generally, like, you know, maybe this was caught some people somewhat off guard, and they feel like it's kind of like a more non-traditional approach. But I think generally, like, I think we look back on it and say, \"Okay, this is good because people actually further, further the conversation People would envision, but, you know, at the same time, maybe it's nice for people to mix things up every now and then, say, okay, well, at least that's what we don't like, that's what we like, right? So, you know, so now people know exactly maybe how they want things to be presented or, exactly what they think the right communication outlets are generally. But, but I think we'll look back on it as like a positive event even in the short term, people feel like it's a lot of, you know, discussion" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:12:58", "start": 4378.02, "text": "Attack wallets, but it's like, they wanna do something. If you're not ready yet, cool. You know, if no one's ready, nothing happens at the end of the day as well, too. But things aren't always gonna look like they, looked in the past." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:13:07", "start": 4387.28, "text": "Yeah, sure. And also, obviously, I've got to ask you, even though they're not, obviously, Anywhere Out is not a competitor in that sense to CTV, but obviously, as a lightning guy, and obviously as one of the, you were one of the co-authors of Any prevout come into Bitcoin to enable L2 and enable channel factories and all of these other fantastic things. So I'm curious your thoughts there on whether you see any prevout as being higher priority than, say, CTV or are they in competition or how are you seeing that?" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:13:43", "start": 4423.61, "text": "No, really good question. Obviously, like, you know, I think, you know, any prevout would be super dope. Like, you know, I even worked on like a very basic version back in twenty fifteen with Lightning Wide Paper, and then that was kind of the original proposed solution, no input. So what happened We did everything else, it's history, and now we're, we're, you know, using lightning and things like that, right? No, so I think it's definitely an interesting question as far as like people are asking like, what's next? All right, is there some kind of like, you know, queue or you get in line, like, you know, because you were there first? That's the very next thing. Not necessarily, I think people like also respect somewhat like the age of ideas as far as like, you know, it's sitting around for scrutiny wise, like no one That invalidates, invalidates the committed transaction because the TXID changes, right? So I think it's once again, it's a very useful primitive for like general, like off-chain, you know, transaction creation, because like typically you are making these kind of like, you know, change transactions, if any one of them gets invalidated, everything that's, that's, you know, pretty bad in general, right? But so I would say, you know, there definitely is some overlap with CTV, for example, like, you know, APL lets you, do kind of Signatures are actually in the inputs, in the witness. This would be say, okay, well, I'll basically pre-create a signature that's gonna be in the, output itself. And I can do that because now, because any proof out lets me like not commit to the, ticket ID, but lets me commit to the script itself, that's something that's possible there, right? So you can say it's maybe the exciting way of like achieving some of the properties. There are some differences between the two as far as like what's really, you know, possible as well StateHash, contract and state hashes are kind of like a sort of a hairy, you know, thing in Bitcoin itself. There's kind of like a larger design space of it generally, right? So like, I guess for historically, some people like, you know, the last thing people working on the NIP proposal is like, for example, like, you know, it lets you, you know, it's kind of like it has like an entire property of like letting you effectively like replay a signature, right? So once again, because the signature doesn't commit to" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:15:49", "start": 4549.37, "text": "the TX ID, only commit Before even things like Taproot were rolled out, people were working on a lot on kind of making, making that a lot safer, basically by maybe requiring you to like, you know, use a particular output type or kind of like requiring you to like, you know, show on chain this is like a very specific thing as well, too. So, you know, because people were kind of like wanting to like resolve that, like, you know, intricacy, things got a little bit more, involved or complex on the NFT proof of outside as well, too. So it's one" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:16:28", "start": 4588.04, "text": "Make sure we have that safety primitives, which is obviously a really good thing, because we, you know, we don't want to give people like foot guns, so now they lose all their Bitcoin or all their money or something like that, right? So I think, you know, to me, you, if you ask me, I would say both. I think they're both, you know, super useful, but it's kind of a thing, do people have like the appetite and energy, to actually do both at once? I think it's interesting because like there's something called like, you In, in their like reviewing thing, but also because like in the past, you know, Bitcoin deals kind of like the main vector that people would at Softworks in, right? And they kind of like, you know, people kind of like gravitated toward one particular thing. So it could be the case, you know, maybe in the future people would just say, \"Okay, well, let's try both, whichever one sticks, sticks.\" So obviously maybe that's gonna be a little bit messier than what people know is kind of like being the next particular thing, but, you" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:17:24", "start": 4644.65, "text": "know, It's definitely like a difficult thing. You can tell like a typical company, maybe like a PM or the CEO would say, \"Okay, boom, this is what we're doing, right? \" But we don't, we don't necessarily have that because it's kind of like a decentralized system. We have to kind of, you know, weigh exactly the different trade-offs and things like that as well, too. I think we'll be-- I think we'll make steady progress. It's just we'll just kind of like be in this intermediate phase of exactly, you know, picking what's here and Safer, maybe we can just boom and then ship it. Like, obviously, I had a limitation, like, you know, five, you know, like in twenty fifteen, was that, is that something that we could have shipped? No, because, you know, it was insecure for several reasons, didn't have all the vetting and things like that as well, too. But I think it'll, I think it'll happen eventually. I think the other thing as well, too, is that, like, you know, the L2 construct isn't necessarily uniquely enabled by just any pre" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:18:28", "start": 4708.02, "text": "The thing that I've been working on, you know, or that I've had ideas for the past, you know, several years, you know, maybe sending proof out, maybe something else, you know, for example, maybe CTV doesn't happen, maybe something that's like maybe, you know, slightly more decomposed versus a CTV happens, right? So for example, you know, CTV basically says like check temp and verify, right? But what if I had, and that what, what that does is basically let you say, okay, well, you know, construct the transaction hash itself It's kind of thing where, you know, even though there are these proposals, maybe it won't ultimately be what's there. For example, even with Taproot, like, you know, there was a time where there's something else called, like, you know, Merkle Branch Verify, right? Which is basically gonna be like a generic way to verify, Merkle branches in Taproot itself, right? The thing was, okay, well, what if we can combine Schnorr, you know, and Merkle Branch Verify and this like script tree thing basically into one, that's what we" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:19:29", "start": 4769.1, "text": "In the past, so, you know, I wouldn't rule that out. Or maybe someone combined CTV and any protocol together, and that's kind of like what happens in, in SET or something. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:19:34", "start": 4774.58, "text": "Yeah. Right. And so, I, I think the other point to understand for us here is that in terms of what's the imperative here, why should we try this? What's the use of this? It could also be that even just as we look at the world today, literally the entire world couldn't onboard to Lightning today in a non-custodial way, like it just," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:19:58", "start": 4798.16, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:19:58", "start": 4798.6, "text": "Like just the, for every person to have a channel, it would just take like years. But if we had, let's say CTV, if we had any prevail, then maybe it starts to become more feasible for this kind of thing to actually get more and more people actually being self-sovereign potentially. So I think that's part of the argument here, and I think that's where some people are saying, \"No, don't change Bitcoin because it's fine as it is.\" But then at the, on the other hand, you could also say, \"Well, Bitcoin and Lightning as Right now, right? Because the numbers just don't work right now." }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:20:31", "start": 4831.26, "text": "Yeah, yeah, like the math just doesn't add up basically, right? As far as like the block size, you said, oh, size something, something like that. So I think that's definitely like a very, like, you can say like a worthy lens, like, okay, like, does it help self-sovereignty? Does it help, like, you know, non-custody application? Also, does it help scalability as well, too? I think that's kind of like a worthy, you know Consider basically, and, you know, thing as well is that like, I think if we're, if we're able to kind of, you know, make steady gains in that direction, doesn't need to be like five times a year, maybe it's like a few times, you know, over the course, maybe it's like, you know, before the next halving or something like that. I think that just kind of, you know, shows the world even, okay, Bitcoin can evolve itself basically and also make sure it's going for that greater goal, making sure we're Or like the, you know, drug people, they kind of like me, they have like a very direct use case in their own lives, or maybe like they kind of can realize that like all happening around us, like, is something that's kind of like a very, you know, historical event basically as far as like the USD not really being, you know, where it was in the past, people looking at other kind of cryptocurrencies as well too. So I think it's definitely like we're, we're at a very interesting point, I think adoption-wise. and obviously would be ashamed if somehow" }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:21:58", "start": 4918.06, "text": "We think it's a given people get very complacent, they, you know, they kind of like, you know, rest on their laurels, they're not really, you know, going after like new opportunities or new protocol development or else, you know, we still need to, like, continuously, you know, prove the system out, you know, every day and make sure it's also ready for the next generation as well, which I think is a very important thing to consider." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:22:12", "start": 4932.05, "text": "Alright, well, look, I think that's pretty much a good spot to wrap up here. So," }, { "speaker": "laolu_roasbeef", "time": "01:22:28", "start": 4948.1, "text": "People, so I published the blip, the bips on the mailing list, you know, last month or so, you know, got a bunch of really good feedback, I've been also making a bunch of like new updates there, you can like look at that at like, you know, Roasbeef, get the com slash roasbeef slash bips, and find like, re-rewards to anyone like it has, like, you know, answers or, you know, kind of like feedback, definitely like, you know, looking for Hashes transfer them, things like that as well too. One thing I didn't touch on, as directly is that, you know, obviously when you get on Lightning itself, Lightning needs kind of like an upgrade to Taproot first, right? So that needs to happen as far as like an upgrade in Lightning to Taproot first, which is also a very important thing as far as like privacy, also using like PTLCs, which can be combined, can be combined into DLCS, things like that as well. I think beyond that, we definitely have some really cool things in store, Which will kind of like, you know, drive a note securely from the browser, which I think is a really cool thing. Because all of a sudden now that people know about things like Elisa, HB four o two, I think that's really gonna like change a lot of the way people actually, you know, interact on, on, on websites and use money today, generally, right? So if you saw a blog, remember like Marty Bet, maybe like a week or so ago, can only activate the Lightning Paywall on his blog, which is a really cool thing, because the A click and go. I think it has the potential to really, you know, number one, show people like, you know, what Lightning is uniquely capable of, and also then show them potential something like Bitcoin, which is like this, like independent money, independent everything else. So those are probably a few things. Obviously, you know, we have a bunch of things coming on the spec side of things as far as the Taproot itself, we can give an upgrade channels, generally privacy improvements, so, you know, definitely a lot of stuff to be working on and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:24:19", "start": 5059.25, "text": "really excited" } ] }