{ "episodeId": "SLP384", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "zerofeerouting": { "name": "zerofeerouting", "role": "guest", "tag": "ZEROFEEROUTING" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.45, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Swan Bitcoin is the easy way to learn Bitcoin and also buy Bitcoin. With Swan Bitcoin, you can also use the special feature with gifts. So if you have friends and family in your life and you wanna give the gift of Bitcoin to your loved ones, Swan makes it easy for you. You can create Create a Bitcoin gift with a custom message. Your recipient will get an email, and they can claim this in seven days. They can then create their SWAN account and convert the USD value that you gifted into Bitcoin. 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So if you're interested to get yours, go to coinkite dot com. Now, it's been some time since my last episode, and there's a reason for that. I recently got married in Sri Lanka, and so I took a few weeks off just because partly, there was poor internet in the hotel, and also because there's a lot of planning around my getting married. So I'm back, and we've got a bunch of episodes coming for you. So today's episode is with zerofeerouting. Zerofeerouting is, Nim, who is running the third most connected Lightning node, and he has a very innovative business model. So- We talk about his process of starting that routing node, the zero fee routing business model, we talk about why nobody else has done it yet, where the fees are going on Lightning Network, and who will pay them, because I think he has some interesting thoughts here, and we also talk about operational aspects of running a big node, Lightning protocol improvements, as well as LND and core Lightning. So onto the show with zero fee routing. Zero fee routing, welcome to the show. Happy to be here. So, zero, I, you know, came across you on Twitter, and I thought you had a really interesting business model and what you're doing with Lightning as well, and of course, I partly got the idea to interview you from my friend Renee Picard when I was chatting with him about Picard Payments. So, let's start with a little bit about you. I know obviously you're under a name, so nothing, personally doxing. But do you want to just tell us a little bit about how you got started with Lightning and why you chose to run a Lightning node?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "03:44", "start": 224.16, "text": "Yeah, of course. I, I first started, with Lightning when BTC Pay Server first came out, supporting Lightning, so that was way back, like, like, I think four years back or something like that. I started, used it to buy some stickers from the Blockstream store and then basically didn't do much about it afterwards. So the node sat around for a couple of years, basically doing nothing, routing some payments by accident without me knowing it. But, yeah, and then, when the El Salvador story hit, it reignited my interest for the technology, and I dug into it again, set up a node, and thought about, okay, how, how can I, can I use this technology to further the UX for, for users, basically? That, that was my main goal." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:36", "start": 276.21, "text": "So it's all happened very quickly then, because if you're saying around the El Salvador story time, we're talking, you know, September or, or so of twenty twenty-one, and here we are in June twenty twenty-two, and you have what is it, the third most connected Lightning node already?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "04:50", "start": 289.94, "text": "Yeah, it, it, it was crazy how, how well it took off, especially because I had to shut it down in March and completely start over again. So it, it, it really took off, I think. Well, what I, what I thought about was, my, my Gain traction really quick and grow fast." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:10", "start": 309.97, "text": "Right, and I think that's part of it because you had this big differentiating factor, of course, zerofeerouting, and that's definitely, I think, noteworthy amongst the community of Bitcoin and Lightning users who are following the discussion on Twitter and mailing list and everywhere. So, do you wanna just talk us through how you got this idea for this zerofeerouting business model and how, what, you know, what's the business model?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "05:36", "start": 335.59, "text": "Yeah. well, my idea, was usually in markets with little to no entry to, barrier to entry, the price approaches marginal costs. And marginal costs for forwarding a payment are basically zero. So it, it doesn't cost my node anything to forward the payment from A to B. That, that, that's basically okay, I gotta store it for the duration of the channel, but, but that's negligible. So, for me I came to the conclusion, okay, if, if, the, the cost for that are zero, the price for that will approach zero over time anyways, because of all the pressure that's coming into the market, fees are getting pushed towards zero anyways, might as well start right off with it. And then, because capital costs money and, and the hardware costs money, I have to charge something for, for something, so I decided to charge for my liquidity, because that is actually something that- It's costing me money, at least opportunity costs." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:39", "start": 398.93, "text": "Yeah, that's really interesting. And so, I mean, of course, there are different arguments people could present here, right? And I'm just, obviously for the sake of argument, just making this. So could somebody make an argument back to you saying, \"Well, actually, part of the cost of running the routing node is also the hardware and the, the CPU, the hard drive space, those elements of it, and, you know, the risk that you're taking.\" Or you, or, or are you basically saying really most of that Let's say the tying up the opportunity cost. Is that basically the argument here? We're saying that opportunity cost of tying up my coins in this channel with X, Y, and Z person is, that's really the main cost as opposed to the incremental cost of forwarding? Is that the argument?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "07:22", "start": 442.4, "text": "Yeah, well, basically the thing is, of course, I have, recurring costs. So I have, hardware that I have to pay for. It's, it's fixed costs per time, but those costs don't rise if I route more. So if I route no payments or a billion payments, the, the, the costs are basically the same. So it's, it's not, it's really not the, the, the amount of forwarding that is causing the costs. It's just, a fixed amount of cost per- Time and my, my capital." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:54", "start": 473.76, "text": "Great. And so can you give listeners an idea of what kind of upfront cost? So like, let's see, I guess I'm thinking of it like it's an upfront business model, right? The idea is the person comes to you and they say, \"Hey, zero, I want a channel for five million satoshis.\" Or can you just tell us, talk us through what the costs are for the, let's say the cust-- your customers?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "08:15", "start": 494.65, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. I, that's basically pretty straightforward. I charge point five percent of the channel size So, five million channel would be twenty-five thousand sets, and I open the channel right after the payment, and then the channel stays open for at least ninety days, which is three times of what others guarantee, and after which I might review the channel. I've not closed any channels that were paid for yet, but I reserve the right to do so." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:46", "start": 525.83, "text": "Of course, right? So let's say that person sets up a node and it's actually going offline all the time Home or, you know, then in those cases, obviously you'd do the minimum, ninety days as you promised, and then cut them off because, hey, this guy's a bad node or whatever. Yeah, that's interesting to see. So it's this point five percent, and so then obviously as the, the name goes, it's zero fee routing. So that means, does that mean essentially that you have zero base fee and zero incremental or zero PPM fee for that specific channel? Now, I guess the other question people would have is, is it zero fee routing on all of your channels or Only those ones that you sell to somebody?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "09:23", "start": 562.72, "text": "No, it's, on all of my channels. So I, the channels that I open for a fee, the channels that get opened to me, they are all zero fee. since Lightning works with channel balances and you can only forward a payment if the channel has liquidity in it, I basically block channels that I have no liquidity in, because I, since I can't forward to the peer, I have to let my, my other peers know that I don't have any liquidity, so I set the Max HTLC, which means the maximum size of the payment that I'm gonna forward to one Satoshi, so basically nothing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:59", "start": 598.8, "text": "I see, okay. Right. And so is that custom scripting you're running to do that, or how do you achieve that?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "10:05", "start": 604.55, "text": "Yeah, exactly. I have a script that runs every minute that checks all the channels and updates them in a way that the Max HTLC gets set to one immediately, basically after I drop below the threshold, and it- It will get raised up about, a maximum of two times a day, so I don't spam the network with gossip." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:29", "start": 628.72, "text": "I see. Yeah. So this is something that people were chatting about. Maybe we'll get to that later as well. Now, just for comparison's sake, what are your competitors charging? So people who are, let's say, if we're talking in the market for selling an inbound channel, that's essentially what you're offering in a way, what kind of fees are your competitors offering? And, you know, what's the main difference between what you're offering?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "10:54", "start": 653.84, "text": "Yeah, there's, there's a handful of, well-known competitors, the biggest is LN Bank, they sell channels for point two percent plus, I think, about three thousand satz fixed fee, and there is, on the other end, there's Thor, I think they're called, that's Bitrefill's service, they charge north of one percent, I think one point two percent or something like that. So I'm, I'm sitting in the middle between there. Whereas Breeze has an integrated LSP that, that opens, the Breeze wallet for, for mobile phones, that opens a channel to you on the fly, they charge point four percent. So I'm, I'm basically in the middle of, of what others charge, but all of them are charging routing fees on top of that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:39", "start": 698.83, "text": "So that's your big, obviously as the name goes, that's your big differentiator. Yeah. And so- I think the other aspect of it is the quality of the channel that you're getting, because that's maybe another area of distinction, let's say." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "11:53", "start": 713.13, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:54", "start": 713.65, "text": "because now, of course, all the-- pretty much all those ones you named, they are all well-connected nodes also, but potentially if somebody is trying to compete here, part of the game here is to have a well-connected node so that you can offer reliable payments to your customers. And so I think that's probably an important point to understand, is that you- Want to-- in the Lightning Network, I guess you can think of it like the more central you are, the easier it is for somebody to route through you. Yes. Correct?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "12:24", "start": 744.37, "text": "Yes, exactly. So the, the way the network works is the better connected the node is, the more the incentives for new nodes to connect to it. So it, it's basically the large nodes win the game play." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:39", "start": 759.16, "text": "And that brings up this whole question as well that people say of, \"Oh, Lightning is going to become this high- Hub and spoke model, it will become very difficult for the average person to set up their own self-sovereign Lightning node, and users will be dependent on large services. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that view? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "13:02", "start": 782.48, "text": "the way the network, is built out, I think it will tend to develop towards that direction so that you have a handful or two handful of very large, very well-connected nodes That basically everybody that wants to connect to connects to if they want to have fast and probably cheap payments. But that's, that's not the end of the story. If, if you don't want that and if you don't want to connect to those nodes, you can connect to smaller nodes that are Tor only, do a couple extra hops to obscure where the payment goes, and you're good to go. So it's, it's basically, it's, it's not, it doesn't force you toward that, but this is basically what I think most of the- The users of the network will want also, so it, it will, I think it will develop in that direction." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:52", "start": 831.53, "text": "So in other words, the convenience layer for end users will push, let's say, the network in this direction, but perhaps there will still be that opportunity for the, let's say, self-sovereign Lightning node user who maybe wants to be more sovereign, he or she, they can still set up their own Lightning node and still find ways to get connected, I guess. So long as they have enough capital and they have a good enough node in terms of uptime, availability, and things like this." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "14:20", "start": 860.35, "text": "Yeah, it's especially about privacy, right? If, if, if you, only have a channel with me and I, you send and receive over that channel, I basically know everything that you send and receive because that's your only channel. so if, if you don't want that, you should have a couple of channels and basically obscure, m- How you're gonna pay, but that, that's not-- it's, it's not a must. It's, it's just something that, that, the, the more private you wanna be, the more it's recommended to kind of obscure what you're paying, what you're receiving towards your peers." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:53", "start": 892.91, "text": "Of course. And it's probably fair to say that if you wanna be private with Bitcoin in general, you, you have to do a little bit more work, and you may have to pay a bit more. That's just, that's just the trade-off, that's just the reality of it Improvements that may come down the line, so for example, trampoline routing, route blinding, Bolt twelve that offers additional receiver privacy, Taproot channels with pTLCs, point time lock contracts instead of HTLCs. So I think these are a few examples that maybe down the line they may help improve privacy as well." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "15:30", "start": 929.75, "text": "Yes, absolutely. And this isn't, it's, it's, it's not a fixed protocol, it's, it's growing, it's being developed on, although it's, it's getting slower because Stuff has emerged and it's working, and now, there's different parties with different incentives trying to move the protocol their way, and, and we have to wait and see which way it's gonna end up." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:55", "start": 954.91, "text": "Right. And in the, let's say bear market or dip, whatever we wanna call this right now as we speak, Bitcoin's, call it twenty, twenty-one thousand, around that range, down from the high of sixty-nine thousand last year. So I'm curious, zero, are you seeing any different behavior in the bear market? Are you seeing less activity on the Lightning Network compared to earlier in the year? No, no, the, it," }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "16:19", "start": 979.1, "text": "it's pretty, pretty much the same. I have like seasonal- Eps and flows intra-week, but other than that, it, it's pretty much the same as it has been before." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:32", "start": 991.81, "text": "Excellent. And so the other point I was interested to chat with you about is the channel dot DB. And so this is something you spoke about, and so I think you might have, kicked up a, a little bit of a, a fuss on, Twitter, and I think there was a bit of a response then from some of the different clients and other Lightning node runners and Lightning users. But do you wanna just tell us a little bit- About your adventures with your channel database?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "16:58", "start": 1018.05, "text": "Yeah, when I, when I started my node, I just went with the most popular, implementation, which is LND. I didn't even look at the other ones. I, I just took, the, the most popular one, that had the most Scripting the most tooling, whatever, and set it up and got it running and ran into the channel DB growing very, very quickly after a couple of months, and it ended up growing so fast I had like nine hundred channels and the channel DB grew by seven gigabytes a day. So, and if you have like, a terabyte of disk space, you can kinda do the math how long that's gonna last. And I knew, that LND developers were working on, on a fix, but I also knew, that there was no time set for that fix to be deployed. So, a-and I just had to Do I trust them to do it in time before I die or do I don't, do I not do that? And for me, it was pretty clear that, that I can't, I can't play the lottery on that, and I said, okay, I'm, I have so much traction right now, the later I do a switch, the harder it's gonna be to regain all that traction. So I basically, within two weeks, I shut the node down, told everybody move over to the other node. And started a new node, running CLN" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:30", "start": 1109.75, "text": "with, Core Lightning, which used to be called C-Lightning for listeners, if you're not familiar. Yeah. and so, as I understand from the Lightning Labs LND perspective, I think it was something like the software was basically very verbose with the logging, and so that's what's causing this, that was causing that. And I think they, I think later, maybe it was after you changed over, but I think they had later shipped a, an update to the software so, so that it, Adverbous with the logging, but perhaps in your case it was too late, you had already switched. Exactly." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "19:01", "start": 1140.57, "text": "Yeah, it's, it's like they, they, I think that-- Well, release candidates are out that, that already, mitigate this issue. So, if you're willing to run a release candidate, you can run one that, that doesn't store as much information in the channel DB. but, the old states are still there. a fix for that is supposedly coming out, later this year, so it, it, it It was basically storing a bunch of information that doesn't necessarily have to be stored, just out of convenience, and that, that led to issues for large routing nodes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:40", "start": 1180.0, "text": "I see, yeah, and I think as I understand from the Lightning Labs perspective, it was something like it helped with troubleshooting for users who wanted help or something like that." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "19:50", "start": 1189.7, "text": "Yeah, and it made, Upeer, from what I gathered, if Upeer published an old channel state, it made It quicker for you to, kind of retaliate and publish the, actual punishment transaction for that. But it's, it's a huge trade-off because that almost never happens, and if it happens, if it takes you a second to get to that, it's okay." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:13", "start": 1213.4, "text": "Right, gotcha. Yeah. And so, do you wanna maybe chat a little bit about the, the level of the machine you're running? I mean, of course, if what, whatever you're willing to disclose. Yeah, yeah, of course. Are you, are you using like a very beef High-powered machine or is it just a, an average sort of box or what, what's the situation here?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "20:31", "start": 1231.43, "text": "Yeah, I started up with running it on a desktop, on a really old desktop computer that just sat next to my desk, then moved over to a, a ThinkPad, a Lenovo ThinkPad, but I ran into hardware issues with that device, like, like serious. I, I got, I really got lucky that I didn't screw up the node completely. And then decided, okay, I'm just gonna move to a data center, rent a dedicated server there, and it's now running on a pretty beefy machine. But, from the information I have, that's not really necessary. So a node like mine can run on medium quality hardware, not, not quality, but medium beefy hardware." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:17", "start": 1277.04, "text": "I see, yeah. And then, are there special concerns around things like backups or your node going offline? Because obviously there are quite-- I mean, I, I checked your statistics, just an hour or so ago, I think you've got something like sixty-six Bitcoin worth of, capacity there. Yeah. And now, of course, maybe that's not all, outgoing capacity, some of that might be inbound as well, but with running such a large routing node, you obviously have to be more careful. Are there any special considerations? Questions there around things like backups." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "21:50", "start": 1310.22, "text": "Yes, of course. First of all, I run, it's Lightning with, or Core Lightning, as it's called now, with, Postgre's database backend, so it's not the, the standard, I think SQLite or whatever. so I can, I didn't do it yet, but I can implement, replication. I run it on a RAID, so if one of the drives fails, it's still gonna be there. And also, I, I've hardened the, the, the server so it basically only accepts Lightning protocol communications, over IP. And what this-- there, there's basically no other software running besides Bitcoin and Lightning. So, even the channel opening method that I implemented isn't implemented in a way that the something talks to my server and the server reacts, but the server pulling new channel opening requests every minute so it talks to the other side. So I have an API that, that my server talks to with the script that I wrote. So there's no way to kinda tell my server something that it doesn't Does not pull itself." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:07", "start": 1387.11, "text": "I see, yeah. You've got a, a like a separation of concerns. Yeah, exactly. Okay, great. And so, is there anything special being done in terms of availability then? Because obviously, running a big routing node, you don't want downtime off, you know, your node going offline. You want it to be up, stable as much as possible. Is there anything special you're doing there, or is it just, you know, the data center has already has certain assurances for you about, you know, five nines or five nines availability or anything like" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "23:36", "start": 1415.7, "text": "right now it's, it's exactly just the data center uptime guarantee, so if something happens, the, the node is down, but I'm actually in the process of implementing, a switch so, so with the database replication, you can set up a second node that accesses the replicated database that you can basically switch to in an instant If the first primary node goes down. So, yeah, that's something that I'm looking at, but it's not there yet. So right now, if the hard-- if the hardware fails or if somebody pulls the plug, then the node's down." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:15", "start": 1454.86, "text": "Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. And I, I think there's different models I've heard of and seen. So some people run like one lightning node in front of another or things like this to sort of run, their different setups. So it's always interesting just to hear the, the setup that some of the bigger lightning node users The," }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "24:34", "start": 1474.19, "text": "the main issue right now is less, hardware reliability or, or electricity availability or something like that, but, but software stability, and that's something that having a second machine doesn't mitigate. If your software crashes, it's gonna crash on another hardware as, as much." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:52", "start": 1491.81, "text": "Gotcha. Also, just thinking about Lightning business models, and I'm, I guess the other question as well, and I think you were talking about this recently as well on Twitter, is why is it that no, it seems nobody else has tried to copy your business model yet?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "25:06", "start": 1506.28, "text": "Yeah, I, I've been asked that a lot, and I've asked that question to myself a lot too. either it isn't attractive because, the amount of yield you can generate with your coins is limited to the amount of channels you can open with Those coins, and if you have like point five percent, fee that you charge and you guarantee ninety days, you can at most charge four times five percent, which is two percent year over year yield. So the maximum amount of yield I can generate with my coins is limited to two percent, which is not the case if I were to charge routing fees. So maybe disincentive for others to enter that market. But I think from what, what information I have Two to three percent yield is basically at the top of what others are making the charge fees. So I, I don't know if, if it's that much lower than the, the theoretical maximum that you can achieve. And it's way easier the way I run it, because I don't-- others have to pay lots of attention towards rebalancing channels and all, all that stuff. I don't do any of that, because rebalancing channels would just be me subsidizing my peers. Routing, because I pay for rebalancing a channel that my peers can use for free to unbalance again. So, for running a node the way I do is, is a lot less time intensive and, requires a lot less continuous, channel maintenance because I just disable a channel if it's depleted." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:42", "start": 1601.85, "text": "Right, I see. And I'm curious as well if you have any thoughts on where you see routing fees on the network just going, just broadly, like, do you think Maybe in, in, in say five years time, the average, if you, you know, if you had to estimate the routing fee, the average routing fee paid by, let's say, an average retail customer in five years time, where would you guess or where would you speculate that would be?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "27:05", "start": 1625.32, "text": "Yeah, it completely, completely depends on how the market's gonna develop. My initial suggestion was it's gonna approach zero, just because there is no I, I, I can't see it being high, high for a sustained period of time, just because it's so easy to deploy a node, and set lower fees than the rest of the ga-the game does and attract inbound liquidity. So, I, I think it, it's gonna be lower towards most channels. There will always be channels that, that you have to charge Fees towards, Loop is one of those, which is a service that Lightning Labs is offering, and, yeah, that's, that's probably something that, that, that might happen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:52", "start": 1672.29, "text": "So there are risks associated with running a Lightning node. I mean, of course, your channels could get griefed, there could be some vulnerability, you know, you're tying up capital. Yeah. I, I think surely those factors would all lead to there being some cost, you know, above zero in terms of routing longer term." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "28:14", "start": 1693.82, "text": "Yeah, maybe, but I, I-- Right now, the, the way, businesses work, right now with, with, fiat- Money is you, a retailer, store owner basically pays a fee to being able to receive funds. Like with Visa or Mastercard, they charge up to two percent. and I, I can see, and, and the, the end user, the customer doesn't pay anything. I can see that developing for Lightning and, and Bitcoin payments as well, so that the, the stores basically swallow the, the cost of the payment, so that the payer pays for free because it's just Better UX. So, i-i-i-it's just not a good feel if you go to restaurant A and, and i-i-it's gonna cost you one percent extra just to pay there, a-at restaurant B, i-it's not. So, i-i-think it's, it, it might develop in a way that the stores, the restaurants, the persons being paid are willing to pay for Their customers having a good experience." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:23", "start": 1763.49, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. 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And now back to the show with zero fee routing. Yeah, that's a good point. because in the modern day world now, when people go and tap their credit cards, in the background, it's anywhere between two, three, four, maybe even five percent that actually is being paid, but actually the merchant is wearing that cost, and for them, for that merchant, it's just cost of doing business, right? If I wanna sell products or if I wanna run a restaurant or a coffee shop or whatever, I'm just eating that, I'm swallowing that as part of my, inside my margins overall. So it's an interesting argument you make" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:17", "start": 1937.46, "text": "That cost and really they'll just build the cost into the actual services that they're, they're charging to their customers. Although, yeah, I guess it might be interesting to see what happens with that even in the more online lightning native model. So let's say podcasting two point o or some of the, let's say the Zebity or Thunder Games sort of online lightning powered gaming, some of these, you know, lightning markets or some of these, LSPs, where, you know, where are they gonna make that? That money. I guess they could also charge an upfront fee, for the service and again, build it into the cost, just like the coffee merchant, the, whatever coffee store builds in the cost of the credit card payments, and chargebacks, all of that is calculated or built into the cost of the coffee that you buy." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "33:05", "start": 1984.79, "text": "Yeah. And I also think it, it helps with adoption because it's, it's easier to sell Lightning as that cool new technology that you should use. If, when you use it, it's not gonna cost you an extra point one percent to use, because right now, if you have a credit card, if you have PayPal, if you have whatever, technology that you use to pay your friends with, it's all instant, it's all free. So if, if we want to, Propose Lightning as a solution that, that, that solves beyond the confascability, which is excellent for, in my opinion, but it's not gonna sell to ninety percent of the population. They don't care about that at all. So, so either something big happens and they start to care, or we have to compete in the fields that, that others are competing already and that has, and, and that will be free payment. Payments or at least very, very cheap payments." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:05", "start": 2045.17, "text": "Yeah, interesting. And I think, so as an example, then, let's say in your case, you're charging zero point five percent per ninety days, and as you said, that works out or calculates to two percent per year. But in a way, that's almost like a, that's like a maximum you could earn in terms of your capital. Now, of course, you could sell a lot of channels, but it just means you've got to have a lot of coin available to, to earn that. And so I guess Go in the broader world, because here's the, the reality, right? Because for any Lightning node operator, they are still going to have to compare what they're gonna earn operating a Lightning node, and so in your case, that's two percent per year on the capital, the Bitcoin that you deploy into that node, minus your fees in terms of on-chain fees, fees for running the node, operating costs, electricity, server hosting, et cetera, all of those costs, because you would have to then compare that, like, let's say we're in an environment where The Fed is raising rates, the BOE is raising rates, and if interest rates in the world start rising, then you've gotta calculate that into it as well. But even there, wha-what we're doing here is we're doing this in a Bitcoin world, so it's kind of like you're retaining Bitcoin exposure as opposed to fiat exposure. So even if you could get, I don't know, let's say the Fed raised rates and you were getting, or whatever, let's say, you know, in, in Europe or whatever, you could get three or four percent, you Example." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "35:33", "start": 2133.43, "text": "Exactly. So, so my main argument with that is, a, a Bitcoin native yield, like, like you invest Bitcoin, you get Bitcoin back plus the yield, is probably always naturally lower than a fiat yield because fiat, to, to make up for fiat yield, you have to make at least, eight percent a year to just cover up what inflation takes from you. Plus the taxes you're gonna have to pay for that. So, so it's, it's, it's, I think the, the, the, the yield that you can natively, relatively risk-free earn on, on Bitcoin are, are gonna be lower than, fiat yields." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:16", "start": 2176.46, "text": "Yeah, that's really fascinating to think about, hey. And then, one other idea just came to me as well. When you're a well-connected node, there'll be other people who want to just open a channel to you just because they wanna be connected to you. Now How does it work then if they charge, if they have a fee on their channel?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "36:34", "start": 2194.43, "text": "Yeah, I, I, I don't, mind, what my peers do. So, my peers, can open a channel with me or if they pay for a channel from me, they, both, types of peers can set their fees to whatever they want. Interestingly, my peers tend to set their fees towards me to a very low PPM and usually zero base fee or zero fee These overall. The reason for that isn't them being altruistic or generous, the reason for that is that for most of my peers, I act as a source, which means that funds come from me towards them. So, so my channels usually push towards my peer. But my peers, because I'm so well connected, and the, the funds want to move out from me towards their channels. So in order to earn money, earn satoshis on their other channels, they have to get the liquidity back towards me, which incentivizes them to set their fees towards me to zero, which is a really odd dynamic that, that I've been, looking at for basically all since I started, which I didn't, expect to happen But basically the way, the dynamics work is that, that I route towards my peers for free and they usually are routing towards me for free as well, which, i-increases the dynamic that I have, that I just route tons of funds." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:04", "start": 2284.03, "text": "Yeah, right. So in a way, it's like a rich get richer situation, because you've already got all these zero fee channels, and then more people wanna set up a channel with you, because they see you as a source of routing forwards, and they see, \"Oh, hey, if I connect to zero, he is gonna send some traffic through my way, and I can make money on my other channels that I've got.\" Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic there, because, yeah, I guess in general in the Lightning Network, you wanna think about being in the route that people are paying So for example, there's a really cool new merchant who's starting up, and you set, you wanna open a channel to that merchant because you expect other people will wanna route through you to get to that, to pay that merchant. So that's kind of, I guess, that's the high level dynamic. And I guess the other way people are doing it is, let's say there's a well-known swap provider like Bolt Exchange or Loop or Pool, things like this, where you might wanna connect to that node because you know people are going to be wanting to route through your channel and that's therefore a" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "39:03", "start": 2343.49, "text": "The funny thing is, I'm kinda putting, the rest of the network in a prisoner's dilemma situation. So, all the nodes, can decide to either not connect to me or connect to me. If nobody connected to me, I would have no channels and I wouldn't do much routing. But if nodes start to connect to me, others have to connect to me as well, because I'm routing for so cheap that they are no longer on the shortest path if they aren't connected. Connected to me. But every node that connects to me and has a channel with me is removed from the profitable routes that all the other peers Can do because I route that way now. So I'm, it's, it's, it's a really interesting dynamic, and I'm, I'm, I'm really fascinated by how it plays out right now, because, if you connect to me, all the channels that you have that have moved towards you before are now preferably coming from me because I route for free, and the peers don't." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:08", "start": 2408.35, "text": "Yeah, fascinating. And so, yeah, I mean, it, it brings us back to what we were saying earlier. It's like, why haven't more people done this? And I guess From their perspective, they're, they're not ready to kind of take the leap or maybe they see it like, \"Oh, Zero kind of already got the, got there first and he's kind of taking advantage of it.\" But yeah, really interesting, hey. So then, do you ever have to rebalance or you literally just never have to rebalance and you just basically don't--" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "40:33", "start": 2433.18, "text": "I just disable channels that are depleted and either my peer does something about that or they don't see movement their way. but if, if m-- funds flow naturally back my way, I- We, enable the channel." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:48", "start": 2447.79, "text": "I see. Yeah. And so I guess, is there a little bit of a, let's say, in that, in that case, where the channel gets exhausted and then you disable the channel on your side, then the other channel partner has a choice whether they just close that channel. Now, at that point, you're going to pay a fee, right? Because there's a channel reserve, and I think a little bit of fee is paid by both sides, right?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "41:12", "start": 2471.57, "text": "No, the channel, closing fees are always paid by the- Party that opened the channel. I see. So if, if, if you opened the channel to me and you close it cooperatively, you're gonna pay the fee, and if you force close it, you're gonna pay the fee as well, just a higher fee. And with, the channels that I, opened, I usually charge that possible closing fee upfront anyways, so I, I don't really mind the channel being closed." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:39", "start": 2498.81, "text": "Interesting. Hey, you've really thought it through, hey, I like that. that's really cool. so- What about, your recent campaign to get liquidity adds, aka dual funded channels or aka collaborative channels, which is a core Lightning feature? Now your campaign was to get this added to LND. So do you wanna tell us a little bit about that?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "42:04", "start": 2524.5, "text": "Yeah, I, I, it, it all just started with me reading Alex Bosworth's treat, that if you want to have something done for one of the implementations, you should do it or pay somebody to do it instead of nagging the developers to implement it for free basically. And, LND hasn't implemented liquidity adds or dual funded channels the way it was supposed, by, Nifty Nai, and there is a Bolt pool request on GitHub to, to extend the Bolts to, to have that as a native, Lightning native protocol, and LND just doesn't have that as a priority, which I can understand because they, their business model right now is, they, they run a service that's called Pool, where they are basically the matchmaker, and they charge fees for the matchmaking. So, and, and that service would be obsolete in an instant If liquidity adds dual funded channels were, implemented in LND, so they, they don't have-- they have a real high incentive to not have that happening. And because I read, Alex Bosworth's tweet, I was like, okay, I'm, I'm just gonna- Start a campaign, say I'm gonna, double the funds up to ten million satoshi for every donation that I get, and I will pay a, a developer that implements this and gets this merged, and that is one of the requirements. Doesn't help if you just implement it, you have to have, have it merged in LND, to receive the, the payout basically. And this is also why I said I'm gonna donate, all the funds to the Human Rights Foundation if it n-not doesn't happen, because it- I, I'm not very confident it's ever gonna happen because it just hurts LND, Lightning Labs baseline." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:53", "start": 2632.95, "text": "Right. And so I could imagine, it's an interesting thing, right, the open source world, but there's a business behind this. Yeah. And I could understand if they, you could sort of see a future where they say, no, we're not gonna merge this because, you know, it's just not in line with the business model, and so, you know, it's, awkward." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "44:14", "start": 2653.96, "text": "If, if, if it, if, if implemented. And they, then they have to decide, okay, are we not, are we merging this or are we not? And if, if they're not, they're tell, they're gonna tell the whole world Our business model is more important than this feature, and it's a great feature. It, it, it, allows for self-sovereignty. You don't have to talk, you don't have to have, HTTPS certificates which always require being a person known to the wider world because you can't have a domain without giving your name away. And if, with, with liquidity, as all you have to do is spin up a node, so you can do that completely anonymously, Which is an excellent, quality to have. So, I, I, I really hope it gets implemented, I really, really hope, it gets merged, but I'm not that confident that it's gonna be" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:09", "start": 2709.33, "text": "Yeah, and I think the other aspect that I find really cool about it, you know, because of course, I, I would like to see, you know, speaking selfishly as a Lightning network user, I would like to see, You know, liquidity adds dual funded channels, collaborative channels, whatever we wanna call it, because it would also help from a privacy point of view, because the, the resulting channel opens actually will help cut against or undermine the common input ownership heuristic, which is a private-- which is a well-known privacy heuristic. So if we were able to get a lot of lightning node implementations and clients all using this, it might actually seriously help in terms of privacy on the lightning network, because then right now there are heuristic- Characteristics that can be applied and leveraged to try to de-anonymize or at least try to trace some of the on-chain behavior of a Lightning node user. But let's say we were in a future where everyone was doing these dual funded channels, then it, it actually starts to make it less clear whose funds are whose." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "46:11", "start": 2770.59, "text": "Yeah, exactly. Like, just like Christian, said in, in, in a pro-podcast he did a couple weeks back, it's, it's basically, the, the Lightning funding, transaction is Coinjoin then, which is great, for privacy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:25", "start": 2784.9, "text": "Right, yeah, and I think so that part maybe that's a bit more debatable where, like, I think I, I initially said, \"Oh, it might look like a payjoin, but there are other distinguishing features there, right?\" Because Lightning is multisig, it is, yeah, you know, it's a specific output type and, but that said, in a Taproot world, it, it could sort of help if everyone starts using Taproot and then these Lightning node users are doing these tap- Taproot output multisigs, and it's, you know, definitely, so it's probably maybe not true to say it's a pay, like a, like a pay join, but it is true to say it undermines the common input ownership heuristic, which is, which is a win from a privacy point of view, right? For, for the, for the self-sovereign, lightning and Bitcoin users out there. So that's pretty cool, and, you know, might be cool to see that. Also, I guess another question listeners are probably thinking, and of course, you," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:21", "start": 2841.22, "text": "Routing this business for you right now is it kind of like, is it side hustle level money or is it like replacing full income level money, and you see it kind of growing to that level?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "47:32", "start": 2851.87, "text": "Yeah, well, you can do the math basically. So, so if you, if you assume that, that half of the funds, of that sixty-five Bitcoin are mine, and you take, take two percent of that, which would be basically the maximum that I can earn on it, you would arrive at, five point six Bitcoin a year in yield And with today's price, that's not something you can live comfortably off of. So it is a side hustle. It's taking up a lot of my time, and I can see it having a future where it, it, it is gonna be the only thing I do. But right now, it's, it's not, it's not paying all my bills." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:13", "start": 2892.56, "text": "Of course, yeah, no, that's totally fair. And I think it, it, but it is really interesting to see, and of course, if, let's obviously Bitcoin moves through these bull and bear cycles, and so let's The bull cycle, and I look, of course, I have no crystal ball, right? It could be, it could be in a few months, it could be in a year or two years, for all we know. But let's say we went through that bull cycle, then at that point, it might actually start to be serious money, for you. And so, yeah, exactly, that'll be really interesting then, because then it literally would repla-- it could replace your day job." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "48:44", "start": 2923.68, "text": "Yeah. And I've always wanted to have a Bitcoin native source of income, so I, I Instead of earning fiat money and having to buy, Bitcoin. So I'm, I'm, I'm really happy how, how it turns out. And I'm, I'm, I'm actually surprised, it is profitable in the first year. So I, I started the, the Lightning, the LND node up in July, I think, and it's not even a year and I'm, I'm, I'm profitable." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:17", "start": 2957.14, "text": "Yeah, that's great. And I think we're seeing this whole ecosystem of tooling out there, right? So for example, There's Amboss dot space, there's things like ThunderHub, there's RTL, Ride the Lightning, there's all these different tools and different software and things you can leverage to be a better Lightning node operator. So I'm curious if you have any tips for listeners out there who wanna run their own Lightning node, do you have any tips for them? Although I guess in some sense you're educating your competition, but in another sense you're sort of helping grow the network, so, you know, let's call it even." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "49:49", "start": 2989.28, "text": "Yeah, I, I don't mind, giving tips at all. On, on a meta level basically, because, I myself run none of the, these tools just because from a security perspective, because if, security, flaw would be introduced in one of those tools, it would affect my security, so I run literally nothing except The, the node, but, of course, I have, personal notes that I use for my personal payments, so I ca-can venture some tips. I really think that if you run a lightning node and you want to have a graphical user interface, you should install right the lightning. And I really think you should, if you want to, have access on it, on, with your mobile phone, you should use Zeus, which is an excellent tool to access your Lightning node with." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:47", "start": 3047.0, "text": "Fantastic. Well, I, I'm a user of RTL and Zeus myself, and I did a recent episode with Evan, so listeners, I'll put that in the show notes for anyone interested. And Zero, let's get your thoughts as well on Lightning protocol improvements. I know I, we, I briefly mentioned some earlier, but there's a bunch of- That are potentially coming. There was a recent Lightning, protocol developer meet up and discussion on this, and I think Lalu summarized some of these ideas like gossip network updates, Taproot channels, blinded paths, probing and balance sharing, Vault twelve, and things like this. There are a bunch of those. I'm curious, from your perspective, is there anything you are excited about?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "51:23", "start": 3083.28, "text": "Yeah, the excitement is, is, is-- Well, I, I'm excited the network is still being specked out and it's growing, the feature set is growing. The problem with the old process is it's, it's a slow one, like, like, like the with three C consortium, it's, it's always taking a long time to get stuff implemented. I'm really excited about Bolt twelve. I'm also really-- I, I have proposed that At some point to make, balance sharing, part of the protocol or something like that, just because, h-huge part of what all nodes in the network are seeing right now and, in, in, in traffic and failed payments is actually probing. So it's, it's a peer probing if the channel has liquidity or not, and if that happens, on a huge scale It means that the liquidity you have in a channel is basically public information anyways, because you can probe that channel for free. So it's just, you, you just have to jump through a level, a couple of hoops to get the information, but the information is out there anyways, so we might as well publish that information in order to avoid all those, this probing. We don't have to publish the exact amount of liquidity we have in a channel, but a rough, information ju-just for privacy's sake. But the rough information doesn't hurt anybody, in my opinion, and it saves a lot of failed routing and probing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:53", "start": 3173.21, "text": "Yeah, that's a fascinating question as well, because it, it comes to that trade-off of payment reliability versus privacy. Now, I can see some of the privacy-focused users saying, \"No, no, don't ever share a balance, don't, don't do that stuff.\" And maybe from their perspective, some of them would say, and I've seen, people talk about this idea, instead of paying only for successful payments in Lightning Network, to charge for- Attempts. yeah, I've heard of that, that's one idea, that's kind of one direction, and then the other way, as you're saying, is more like balance sharing, but try to do it in a way that doesn't totally dox everything to everyone and maybe only to your next peer, or, you know, peers within a certain distance from you, things like that. So I'm curious, how, how do you, balance those different ideas of privacy versus payment reliability and then, let's say, ease of operation for the lightning node operator?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "53:45", "start": 3224.7, "text": "I, I think It's really, really important, especially for money like Bitcoin, because, in order to be censorship resistant, it has to be, able to be used at least somewhat privately. But if the information is available for channel analysis companies anyways, by aggressively probing the whole network which doesn't cost them much. So if, if I have like a thousand, dollar budget a month, which isn't a huge budget, I can probe the whole, whole network on a continued basis. So it, it isn't private information anyways. So why are we putting so much effort in keeping it pseudo-private if it's not private at all?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:28", "start": 3268.1, "text": "Right. I say, yeah, and I can, I can hear the privacy-focused individuals screaming out in horror, at this point because they're saying No, it's gonna become a surveillance network, right? so I'm curious if you have any thoughts on ways that balances could be shared in a way that's not, I guess, totally horrible for privacy? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "54:48", "start": 3287.86, "text": "yeah, the way I did it when I ran the LND node is I updated my, max HTLC, on a continued basis, not just to between one and full channel size, but I've had basically brackets of Sizes that would kinda signal the size of the channel. I, I, i-it's like I, I said, a quarter of the channel size is the maximum, of the liquidity I have is the maximum I'm gonna route through that channel in one payment. And that basically gives away the information, but it doesn't share at all what the liquidity is that I have." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:26", "start": 3325.9, "text": "Right. So you're trying to sort of cut it halfway in some, in some sense. You're trying to give some information, but not all of it, and maybe if- Everyone does that, then maybe that helps a little bit. So I guess the, the broader level concern here would be if, let's say, a chain surveillance firm could cheaply surveil the network, as you said, then does that sort of cut against the financial freedom aspect of Bitcoin, which many of us do want. so yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see where that lands and the navigation, let's say, of trying to make it reliable enough, private enough, and also operationally easy enough. Because- 'Cause as you were saying, if everyone is probing, or let's say even if it's just the malicious chain surveillance companies who are probing the network just constantly, because they wanna sort of understand, oh, okay, what's the balance in all the different channels, and let me look at the movement in those channels, and then try to infer, oh, it looks like this node paid that node, and therefore I know kind of roughly some payment came from this area of the network and it paid that other node in the network, things like this, right?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "56:28", "start": 3388.12, "text": "Yeah, exactly. So, so if you, A movement so that if I, update my liquidity information like once every hour, that would basically, for the most channels, that would basically be no information whatsoever because I see back and forth and it's gonna be so aggregated that, that doesn't help. But with, with smaller channels, and smaller nodes, it, it can lead to, More detailed information, basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:00", "start": 3419.67, "text": "Yeah, and I mean, in fairness as well, this is the other aspect, you know, I've, I think I've spoken about this, with Rusty in an earlier episode, but I think he was basically making the point, and I think this is true, is that any of the larger Lightning nodes who are well connected, like very well connected, they can just see more of the traffic right now. That's just, so for example, you can see and potentially de-anonymize traffic or some of the traffic on the Lightning network," }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "57:28", "start": 3447.85, "text": "I see, see, ten thousand transactions successful forward today, and I know from where they came and to which, direction they came. I also see, especially if it's round amounts. So if, if there's a hundred thousand sat payment, and it's a payment that says a hundred thousand and one point two mSats extra, I can kinda guess if there's an additional hop just because Nobody would pay a hundred thousand and one and two hundred millisats, so I can kind of like, yeah, heuristically see where that payment is going. But yeah, that's inherent of the, the network basically, that the peers you route through see the payment." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:13", "start": 3492.63, "text": "Yeah, and as we see the network grow, then maybe it'll be a little bit harder to, for any one person to sort of get a full view of the whole thing, and, maybe that is one aspect. And as well as some of those other privacy improvements as well, things like the, blinded paths, trampoline routing, taproot channels, all these aspects that would help in their own way around, lightning privacy. Yeah. Okay, so, I think those are probably the key questions and probably a, a good spot to wrap up anyway. So, zero, if people wanna find you online or if they wanna buy a channel off you, what's the best place for them to find you?" }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "58:51", "start": 3531.02, "text": "Yeah, I, I'm very, very outspoken on Twitter, which is at zer Bird, you can reach me on Telegram if you want, at zerofeerouting as well. I have a GitHub account also at zerofeerouting, and you can reach my website, https double https zerofeerouting dot com basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:12", "start": 3551.61, "text": "Fantastic. Well, I really enjoyed chatting with you, Zero, and, thanks for, sharing and, educating the listeners, about your adventures with lightning nodes." }, { "speaker": "zerofeerouting", "time": "59:22", "start": 3562.29, "text": "Thanks for having me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:24", "start": 3564.03, "text": "Get the show notes over at stephanlivera.com/384, and if you're enjoying the show, make sure you leave a review on the platforms such as Apple Podcasts and others. That really helps new people find the show. Thanks for listening, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }