{ "episodeId": "SLP386", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "roy_sheinfeld": { "name": "Roy Sheinfeld", "role": "guest", "tag": "ROY" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.61, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, swan dot com. It's the easy way to accumulate Bitcoin while also learning about Bitcoin with various free resources like Inventing Bitcoin, twenty one Lessons and Why Bitcoin, all free Bitcoin books made available for Swan customers. Now with Swan, you can start Start off with a lump sum purchase, and then you can also set up your automatic recurring savings plan, also known as auto DCA. Now, with Swan, there's also a service available for high net worth investors and companies who are looking to stack. This is called Swan Private. You get a dedicated Bitcoin expert who is available for calls to walk you through the setup and purchase process, as well as guide you on other aspects of Bitcoin. So whether this is for yourself to stack Sats or whether it's for your new kind of friend Send them over to swan dot com slash livera. Voltage is paving the way as the leading enterprise grade lightning solution for anyone building on layer two. Lightning is the future for Bitcoin payments, and you can't overlook this anymore. Also, Graham of Voltage wrote a recent blog post about the importance of setting up a lightning node. If you are a Bitcoin business, there are all kinds of benefits that come from being early inside this. Voltage can help you by integrating your lightning and payment infrastructure into your solution quickly and hassle-free. So don't waste time with maintenance. Maintenance and integration, just deploy and iterate faster. 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Now, for episode three hundred and eighty-six, Roy Sheinfeld of Breeze Technology rejoins So, so Breeze is a well-known Lightning service, Lightning wallet, Lightning provider in the industry, and you can use it easily, and it has a special merchant point-of-sale function. And so, Roy and I chat a little bit about that, as well as Lightning network adoption, Breeze's recent adoption of Greenlight, which is from Blockstream, and we also talk about Lightning protocol development and where this is all going and the pathway for development and building in the future, such that Bitcoin is- Providing utility for those end users. So without any further ado, onto the discussion with Roy. Roy, welcome back to the show. Glad to be back, thank you Stefan. So it's always exciting in the world of Bitcoin and Lightning, there's, whether there's a new country adopting Bitcoin as legal tender or we're seeing innovation in the Lightning, network and the associated products and services that are around there. So, yeah, just from your point of view, what are you, what are you seeing? What are you excited? About in the space. Well, you know, I've" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "03:33", "start": 213.0, "text": "been doing Lightning for the past four and a half years, and every time I, I, I talk about Lightning, it's like I'm at the beginning of it, like it, it's all, it's like, running on a hamster wheel, that's the way I feel. And, and, and yes, as you said, like, there's, oh, o-o" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "04:00", "start": 240.02, "text": "Next for Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:02", "start": 241.84, "text": "Yeah, and the interesting thing with Lightning is, it seems like, of course, perceptions are subjective, but you could arguably say at the start it was like really, really hyped, and then maybe there was almost like a bear period where people were sort of like, \"Oh, I don't know about this thing,\" and now, to me, at least, my subjective perception, it's sort of coming back into a bullish perception, right? Because we're seeing more Lightning nodes, we're seeing more services turn on Lightning network and more reliability around payments in the Lightning network, because there Let's say if you wanted to make larger payments, the reliability wasn't that great, whereas now it seems like those issues are being solved over time and things are getting better and better. although, let's say, to really prove this out, maybe Lightning Network needs to have more like targeted or specific attackers and has to sort of resist that attack or, move on from that as well to kind of prove, prove itself or earn its stripes or whatever we wanna say. But I think on the adoption point, I think it's really interesting we're seeing more people who- Who are adopting it, whether that's large, these big services, whether that's Kraken or, Cash App and others, and we're seeing more, hobbyist Bitcoiners who are out there trying to teach their local merchants how to take Bitcoin, and I think this is something you wrote about recently, wasn't it?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "05:16", "start": 316.21, "text": "Yep." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:16", "start": 316.49, "text": "So do you wanna tell us a little bit about your experience there and what you're seeing?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "05:20", "start": 319.81, "text": "Yep. so definitely we see a, a rise in adoption when it comes to Breeze because of, services like Kraken and Cash, Adapting Lightning, so we see a lot of traffic coming from and to Kraken, we see a lot of traffic coming from and to Cash, and I think these are game changers. And you're right, like, I don't know if we're in a bull Lightning market, but definitely the, the new services that are adapting, Lightning are raising the bar and providing Lightning to, to the masses, or at least to a larger group of, of users, it means we can't, Fail on ten dollars or even one hundred dollar payments, so the, the bar is definitely higher, al-although that if you're in the trenches and like, we're in the trenches, you understand that there are still issues when it comes to, routing payments, et cetera. We can drill down on the, on ways to improve that later, but, we see more and more users coming from mainstream audience using Lightning, and as you said, we see more, mom and pop shops, we, we see More local merchants using Breeze in order to accept Bitcoin in their businesses. specifically, I think the article you're referring to was around a company called El Encasa. El Encasa is, is a service company in Helsinki that is solely based on the Breeze point of sale, meaning they use the Bree-Breeze point of sale, as the interface to accept, Bitcoin, and they're, they're working with local merchants in order to- To push Lightning adoptions in pubs, bars, and local, local businesses in the, in the Finland area." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:08", "start": 428.07, "text": "Right, and that's definitely a really interesting part because part of the, the magic of Bitcoin, if you will, is this ability to just quickly spin it up. Even on a phone, you just download the app and then boom, you're enabled and you can just use Bitcoin and Lightning straight away. And so I think that part is really convenient and obviously from a merchant perspective, having the POS mode inside Breeze Makes that very convenient for them, and I think it'd be great also just to chat around any practical points of implementation, right? So as an example, let's say I'm a merchant and I have a range of products, can I, you know, have like a CSV with a product catalog or can I, how do I deal with having staff who are accessing the Breeze terminal?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "07:52", "start": 471.63, "text": "Yeah. so it sounds, really simple, right? Just download an app, switch to point-of-sale mode, and start accepting be- payments. The, the reality is, a bit more complicated, but, fortunately, we have, a, a set of features that allows, business really to manage, their, their, their inventory, ma-manage, the, the accounting using the, the capabilities that we bring to them in a non-custodial fashion. So everything that we do in Breeze is in a non-custodial, fashion, and that's also the, the challenges. All the challenges are, are, are stem from the fact that We're providing a non-custodial service, so it's not like there's a central service, central, SaaS, solution that provides you all the things that you need. you need, some manual work because the data is yours, the payments are yours, the Bitcoin is yours, and we can't do the work for you. You need to do some of the integration when it comes to managing your business. So if Square, made a revolution bringing, by, by, realizing the fact that everyone can become Emerging using their mobile device, Breeze, in Breeze you can even be a merchant with a mobile device, but you also don't need to have a bank account. All your bitcoins is yours when you download Breeze and you start accepting bitcoins, you don't need an account anywhere. It's, it's your bitcoin stored in your Breeze. so Breeze, when it comes to merchants, has s-several features that helps you, manage your, your, your payments and your inventory and your accounting. I'll go from, from the trivial one, which is the point of sale interface. So unlike a, a regular wallet, where the interface isn't really a keypad where you can, you can add the products to the invoice, in Breeze, you have a keypad-like interface where it's very, like a calculator, where it's very easy to check out, it's very easy to, to create an invoice by adding multiple products. Alongside the keypad interface, we have an item, Items view where merchants can import their inventory into Breeze, meaning you can have an items catalog. Let's say you're, you're selling hamburgers, so you can have your various hamburgers, you can have the, the drinks, you can have all the related, all the related inventory to your business displayed very nicely in the Breeze interface, so you don't need to ta- to even enter the amounts, just pick the items and the number of items And, and just ring up the customer. That's another feature, and that's, an end user feature. From the backend standpoint, we have several features that are targeting, businesses and, and small merchants. One of them is the ability to export the transactions into a CSV file, because we don't know how to, do your taxes. So we don't know how to integrate the breeze, the breeze sales into your accounting system, but we do allow you to export Export all the information that you need in order to integrate the payments into your accounting system, and recently we even added the, the fiat amounts. So, up until, two months ago, we didn't, export the fiat, the fiat currency, meaning, typically the, the customers are being charged with the dollar, but the billing is in satoshis, so the settlement is satoshis, and we didn't, list the, the fiat amount that the transaction occurred. now we added the, the fiat amount, which makes it It's easier to do the integration, you don't need an external oracle or external data source in order to, to bring the fiat values. Alongside that, we've added also sales report. Sales report is really, really cool feature where, where you can see what's your total amount of your daily transactions, what the total amount of your monthly transactions, what the total amount of your yearly transaction. So these reports also help with accounting and also, helps with end of day settlement. So for example, if you're in a restaurant and you give three To your waiters, the, the way to settle the score by the, the end of the day is to see how many purchases were made and what was the, the, the amount that each waiter has, has billed. and you, and now with Breeze you can do that very easily, you don't need to manually add the transaction, we give you a sales report in a very nice, slick user, interface. I, I spoke, I spoke about waiters, if you want to give Breeze to your employees, you, we have a way to, for Breeze only, to receive funds and not to send funds. So you have a mode, we call it, admin password or manager pa- sorry, manager password, where you can set a password that only using this password you'll be able to send funds from Breeze. If you don't have the admin password and you don't have the manager password, you can only receive funds. So if you- You, you can, you can have like a read-only mode for, for Breeze, and that's also very, very, very helpful when it comes to, to a merchant that has employees." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:03", "start": 782.6, "text": "Yeah, so it's interesting and good to see there's all this tooling and features that are coming into the app that makes it easy for people to take payment in Bitcoin, like you said, with the accounting aspect of it, right? H-historically, if they were just showing, oh, it was a thousand sats and two thousand sats or however much, they would need to calculate what was" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:23", "start": 803.34, "text": "And so then the accountant or whoever's doing the taxes and, et cetera, just the accounting will be able to take that data and put that into their system to obviously calculate, okay, profits, losses, taxes, et cetera, all that stuff. And so, yeah, I, I think it's really good to see that there's new features and functions coming in, and I think we're seeing more and more real world growing that network effect. And as you said, like with that, Lenni Kasa in Finland going around to different, Businesses, and I think this is something that people should be doing just in general, like if you, if you have your local Bitcoin meetup, you guys should all be out there thinking, hey, where can we go and maybe get a merchant who accepts Bitcoin and set him up on Breeze, set him or her or whoever up on Breeze, and then do your meetups there and then buy drinks there and whatever. So that, maybe that's like another way where obviously every Bitcoiner loves to sort of, if you, well, as long as you're comfortable spending, it's, good" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:23", "start": 863.08, "text": "Slowly grow the scene in your local area, and I think it really is about this kind of bottom-up idea as opposed to a top-down idea. Of course, that top-down approach can, you know, we've seen that in other countries, right? El Salvador, Central African Republic are doing this from a top-down, or sort of in a top-down way, but I think that bottom-up is really the important part." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "14:43", "start": 882.59, "text": "I, I think both are important, everyone can, should contribute w-wherever they can. So I think, by the way, take a look at Oshi, for example, another great example for, for a bottom-up approach where they, they created this very cool, I would say, marketing app where you get, rewards on using bitcoins, and they're going and onboarding local businesses to their platforms. I think, I think there's a lot to do, when it comes to the bottom-up approach. Breeze is definitely A tool, but not only Breeze, like if you can, if you want to use BTC Pay Server, if you want to, to use Oshi, if you want to use, Bitrefill, like there's a lot of, space, at Stecco, for example, if you want to, to convert your, local kiosk, your local con-convenience store to enable them to buy, Bitcoin vouchers, you can do that using at Stecco. So there's a, there's a set of tools right now which keeps growing by Enable this bottom-up approach. Top-down is important as well. Like I, I, I think that what we're doing with the merchant is maybe bottom-up, but what we're doing with podcasting, two point oh, for example, it's kind of a top-down approach where we say, like, we have these platforms, it's not up to us, it's not up to Breeze to go out there and start, signing, the, the podcasters, but, it's up to the podcasters themselves to list themselves in the podcasting two and le- and then we have a, a peer-to-peer compensation system where listeners can send sets to content creators. So I think both are, are important." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:25", "start": 984.98, "text": "Yeah, and I think the other aspect of it is that nowadays with Lightning growing and maturing to a level where it can handle this sort of thing, whereas if we were trying to do all this back in twenty thirteen and fourteen, like there just wouldn't have been enough, we would have just spammed the chain with all these small transactions, well, not spam. Because they have transaction fees, but you get the idea, right? Like pretty soon it's gonna fill up and, you know, it's not going to be capable. Whereas in a Lightning world, we can do all this stuff off-chain and really save chain space. And so I think it's really fascinating to see that, and what we're seeing now is making it easier for people to stay off-chain. and so I guess going to that idea as well with Breeze, the part of the idea is you're using swap in and swap out features or providing that as a, you know, this Actually, on, on that as well, I was playing around with Breeze obviously for this interview, and, is there like a, like a maximum amount that you would recommend people have in Breeze? Is it around four million sat or around there or how, how does that work in the case of a merchant who might, maybe they need to do a little bit more than that? How does that work?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "17:30", "start": 1050.28, "text": "We, we actually have a hard, cap of, point, zero four, Bitcoin, meaning four million satoshis. that's what we recommend, that's what we feel comfortable right now, that's what we feel that is, useful liquidity-wise when it comes to receiving Lightning payments. whenever the merchant hits the, the cap, they can swap out to the chain." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:54", "start": 1074.5, "text": "I see." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "17:55", "start": 1075.34, "text": "and then all the channels are empty again, they have enough, they have four- Four million satoshis of inbound liquidity again. So I think, that's the, and, and, and like we're very open to feedback and we're listening to the market all the time. We actually raised the limit for, from one million satoshi to four million satoshi. Maybe we now with the Bitcoin price drops, maybe we need to raise the limit again, but like that's the order of magnitudes where what, where what we feel comfortable is." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:26", "start": 1106.0, "text": "For sure. And so then part of the process, if you are a Bitcoin- Owner out there trying to teach and help your local merchants, or even if you're a merchant thinking how do I, how do I do this? Well, you have to think about the life cycle of it as well, right? Because you, you might receive, and then now you might need to go and sign up at an exchange, or either find a peer-to-peer person, and, you know, what, for some lo- for bitcoiners who maybe they want some non-KYC coins, maybe you could offer to help set up a merchant, and then you could offer them, hey, once you One of these lightning supporting exchanges, and then that way, it's easy to swap in and out or to sort of, let's say, once your four million capacity is getting filled up, okay, go to the exchange, sell that back for fiat, and then obviously, if you're a business owner, you gotta pay your expenses, but that can be part of the flow, and this is all part of the, the learning, right?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "19:19", "start": 1158.85, "text": "Or send it to your hardware wallet if you want to retain custody. So I think all the options are on the table, and, and you need to do In some way, it's like, where you take all the cash from the cash register at the end of the day and put it in the safe, right? So the question is, you have a safe, at your business or do you decide to deposit the, the, the, the cash in, in a local bank or, so what, the same way that you treat your cash in your business in, with fiat, that's the way that you tr-need to treat your Bitcoin. Bitcoin of, of course, enables you to keep a la-very large amounts of Bitcoin Hardware wallet without, without needing a very large safe." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:05", "start": 1205.14, "text": "Yeah. And so I think part of it also is growing this network effect so that people see that it's a real thing, that there are real businesses around them, that they can spend their Bitcoin or earn Bitcoin, and that the merchants can see, hey, I can actually earn some Bitcoin here, and maybe they can lean into the whole Bitcoin culture a little bit, and then it becomes a bit of a self-reinforcing cycle. So in the article as well, and I'll put that in the show notes, listeners, you can The description, but there are some examples of a local bar, even a martial arts like a BJJ, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu place that are taking Bitcoin, and so if you're growing the scene in your local area, then You start to have more places that you can actually spend and receive Bitcoin, and so I think that really makes it more real for everyone. And, and that's one of" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "20:50", "start": 1250.0, "text": "the, like, the, the recurring feedback that we get, like we have a lot of mainstream users that are being newly onboarded from Kraken and Cash, and now they're asking us, \"Okay, I have this, this amount in my, Breeze, what, what can I do with it?\" so we send them to our app section where we have, Bitcoin refill and, Services, other online services, but like it would be amazing if they could go with Breeze to their, local, to the shops in their local area and start buying products with Lightning, and that's the way we complete the circular, economy. So yeah, that's the next step, but we need a lot more foots in the ground and a lot more Bitcoin soldier, soldiers to make it happen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:38", "start": 1297.98, "text": "So yeah, if you're out there at your local Bitcoin meetup, go and, get busy. so- Roy, let's chat a little bit about updates with Breeze as well. So, as I understand Breeze, I don't know the current situation, but it looks like you might be switching to like a green light infrastructure as well. So could you maybe tell us a little bit about that if you're able to?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "21:58", "start": 1317.58, "text": "Yeah, of course. very exciting, I, I think the product that we're working on, we're adding it, we're not switching on top of our offering where you, using B- Breeze, you run a, a lo- a, a node, a lightning node on, on your mobile device. With Greenlight, Greenlight is for, for those who don't know, that's the cloud infrastructure from Blockstream that enables, that, that allows you to run, your node In the cloud. So it's a platform for, for running users' node on, on the cloud, but it's a hybrid approach, meaning the user node is on the cloud, but, the keys are on the device. So the, the, the keys are stored only at the user, they're not stored in the cloud, and the, and the cloud only hosts the node. But in order to send and receive transaction, you need the keys. So it's still non-custodial because only the user, only the end user has the keys and only they can send and receive, transactions, authorize sending and receiving transactions, but the note itself runs on the cloud. And, and by leveraging the Greenlight infrastructure, that will allow us to be more scalable. What do I mean by, by scalable? I mean Breeze, right now, it's kind of an omni-app, right? You open Breeze, first I don't know even how to define Breeze, like I don't call Breeze a wallet, and with the podcast, interface and the point of sale interface, I don't know what to call Breeze. so when we switch to a Greenlight, to a Greenlight architecture where the user node runs, in the cloud, then we'll be able to spin off all the different experiences that we have in Breeze to different apps. So the Can be a separate app, the podcast player can be a separate app. we have, we have ideas for additional Lightning apps that we want to build on top of this, Breeze, cloud, infrastructure. so it's a, it's a self-custodial model, hybrid model, but it allow us to scale Breeze to multiple applications, and it will also enable us in the future to do two more things. One is to get out of mobile, meaning expand beyond mobile And even develop web applications. And, secondly, it will allow us to package all the Breeze infrastructure in a form of an SDK. So imagine, imagine, someone wants to write a non-custodial Lightning, or to add Lightning monetization to their own application They will be able to use the Breeze infrastructure, let's call it the Breeze SDK, that package all, all these services into, into a very, simple toolkit. They ca-- they would be able to take this toolkit, integrate the toolkit into their own application, and then have non-custodial lightning monetization within their apps. So I think, we, we wanted to find the scalable architecture where we can-- could provide what I call lightning as a service A service, and it's not just Lightning as a service, it's a non-custodial Lightning as a service. So I think that's where we headed, and I'm very, very excited about what, what the future holds for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:19", "start": 1519.2, "text": "us. I see. So currently users are operating using NutriNode, and so they are operating, I guess, a mobile node, and so in the green light model, then they will be using the cloud node, but they'll, you know, on their phone, they're still holding the private keys, and they will still kind of be able to- Remote control that node in a way, using Breeze as their interface to the Lightning Network, you could say." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "25:45", "start": 1544.96, "text": "Exactly. And the keys are still on the device. So the keys are still on the user mobile, mobile device, and the users are the entity that authorizes or technically signing the transactions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:57", "start": 1556.53, "text": "Right. And so, listeners who are interested as well, you can check out the earlier recent episode I did with Christian Decker talking about Greenlight. So that's episode three seven eight, I just looked that one up. and so, yeah, I guess this, A, you know, a, a change and an improvement in the experience while trying to manage this hybrid experience for the user, because I think maybe that was also one of the challenges in years gone by when people were Trying to do everything themselves, they had to manage their channels, then they had to think about incoming liquidity, and then they had to sort of manually manage all of these things. And now what we're seeing is this sort of new crop of apps that sort of come out that put out, put all of that in the background, you just use the app. and so in this example then, like, how, how does, the-- I, I think you, yeah, that's" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "26:41", "start": 1601.13, "text": "exactly right. Like, it was, first when Lightning started, it, it was all The next step in the evolution, what actually what Breeze brought to market, i-is the LSP concept, where you had a liquidity provider that, managed the channels, offscated all the channel management from end users and managed the channel seamlessly, in the background. That was the LSP evolution. And now with Greenlight, actually you get all the infrastructure as a service, so you get the, the user node also as a service, the LSP, and our- Other services like fiat conversions and, and, mobile notification, so you get the entire, entire stack as a service. Greenlight is one piece of the puzzle, LSP is another piece of the puzzle, a swap services, is another important building block. So there are several building block where we can now package into a, a streamlined service." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:44", "start": 1663.95, "text": "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so it's, in a way, it's slow, and there are various trade-offs, obviously. You know, your device needs to- Be online and it's not as, quote unquote, simple as just putting up a Bitcoin address, but there's some big scalability wins there because we're now taking it to a much, making it more accessible. Many more, many, many more people can use Bitcoin without having to sort of, do everything on chain, which is unfortunately not just simply not going to scale, right? And I think it's interesting because in this space, we have this, you know, not your keys, not your coins is the ethos, right? It's all about self-custody, but at the same We also have a lot of custodial users, and maybe that's like an ugly truth, if you will, of Bitcoin today, is that there's a lot of custodial users on various custodial platforms, and of course, we wanna do everything we can to make it easy for people to self-custody, but recognizing that there'll be some users who just won't. but I think Breeze exists as a way of making it easy for them to self-custody." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "28:42", "start": 1722.27, "text": "yeah, I, I'll even be, like, I'll say it more explicitly. I think" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "28:50", "start": 1730.41, "text": "To bring Bitcoin to the masses in a non-casual fashion, then we've failed, and there's no reason to do Bitcoin. The only reason we're doing Bitcoin because it's peer-to-peer money. If we won't be able to realize Satoshi's vision of peer-to-peer internet cash, then we've failed. so the only, the only reason to do Bitcoin is because we want to provide, peer-to-peer cash because we want to peer-- provide peer-to-peer economic, and that's what we strive to do. Like that's- That's the, that's what, that's why we're doing what we're doing. And Lightning, if we want to bring Bitcoin to eight billion people, then definitely Lightning is the way to do that. And if we want to do Lightning, we need to keep Lightning, non-custodial. If you want to, to, to do Lightning non-custodial, it isn't really, it's, it doesn't really scale if you tell all your users to manage their own nodes. So we need to simplify that. We need to, to transform Lightning from, very- Tech savvy IT operation to something we can provide as a service. So that's where we headed, and we started doing that with the LSP, but we'll continue to do that with the entire Lightning stack." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:04", "start": 1804.4, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. If you're in the Bitcoin mining game, you've got to check out Brains. Brains are a Bitcoin mining software and service provider in the industry, they are also the operators of Slush Pool, the first Bitcoin mining pool. So if you have a Bitcoin miner and you are interested to get more Sats and earn more for that same amount of electricity, you need to look into getting an efficiency win, and with Brains OS Plus, you can do this. So go and check whether your model is supported on the website, but if it is, you might be By as much as twenty five percent. 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Also, the new Coldcard Mark IV is landing and it has NFC support. Now, we're still waiting for NFC support in In some of the various wallets, but it's great to see this feature. It might make multi-signature much easier, as well as improving the security for everybody. So that website is coinkite dot com. Go and order your cold card there. Trusting an exchange to hold onto your Bitcoin exposes you to risks such as exchange hacks, compromised passwords, or funds being frozen in the case of withdrawals being locked at various, companies in the broader, quote unquote, crypto space. But taking ownership of your Bitcoin keys can be daunting, even with a hardware wallet, it's normal to worry about coins getting lost or stolen. Now with Unchained, they make it easy for you to set up a multi-signature vault and take control of your keys while eliminating single points of failure. Now, if you're curious about upgrading your security, Unchained Capital offers a complimentary twenty-minute video call to chat through your options, and there are no strings attached. Unchained's team of experts will be happy to chat with you about the setup process and the questions you might have. This can also cover taking advantage of Unchained's integrated financial services, including their trading desk, loans, retirement accounts, and inheritance solutions. So if you know you need to improve your Bitcoin security, don't wait any longer, go to unchained dot com slash consultation. And now, back to the show. I think the other part of it is seeing all the protocol improvements and updates and things that are coming as well. So, I'm curious, Roy, if you have any thoughts on what's going on at a protocol level, what, what's exciting for you, what are you looking forward to, and or even what do you, what do you see that needs improvement?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "33:05", "start": 1984.64, "text": "Great question. I think the-- what's important for me, and I'm representing the-- again, the non-custodial Lightning and what our users want is, offline payment meaning the ability to receive, I think the, I think like our mission is to provide the user experience that is on par with fiat. A custodial lightning kind of provide something that is on par, like if you take a look at Strike or take a look even at, lightning wallets like, Wallet of Satoshi, they provide an experience that is kind of similar to what you, you can find in the fiat world with cash and Venmo, et cetera. Non-custodial Lightning is getting there with the LSP and all the concept, all the, all the user experience concept that we bring to market, but one point where of friction, where we can't provide really right now the same service that non-custodial solution, has to offer is the, have to offer is the o-offline receive. You've mentioned Lightning address. In Breeze, we can't give our users Lightning addresses. Why? Because in order to receive funds, the application The chain needs to be opened because it, we need your node to run and you need to sign the transactions that you receive if you want to receive funds. So it's not like in, in, in the on-chain world where, where you can broadcast a transaction and the transaction is recorded, in the chain, and it's not like in the custodial service when someone sends you funds to your custodial environment and then you receive, you receive the funds, someone else receive your funds on your behalf. In an on-chain Social environment, you need to be online in order to receive funds, and one of the things that I'm looking forward to is the way to resolve this, asynchronous payment, offline is actually in Lightning asynchronous, payment. We need a way for someone to send funds and for you as the payee to receive the funds later. There are several protocol improvements when it, it comes to that. shout out to, to Matt Corell who's promoting, solutions to the async, payments flow. one of the things, that helps in order to resolve that is the use of an LSP, as a way to hold the payment. so there's a way, that is coming where you as a, as a sender, you'll be able to send a transaction, and the transaction will be held at your LSP until the payee is back online, and the payee will be able to communicate with your LSP in order to- Say to, to your LSP, I'm online now, send me the payment, and then the LSP, the, the payer LSP will be able to send the payment to the, to its destination. so there are several protocol improvements that, are, are needed in order to implement that. One is the ability to do, hold, to hold the HTLCs, you need trampoline payments because the LSP needs, that's gonna be the entity that's gonna actually send the payment and retry, various- Routes in order to send the payment to the destination. Onion messages are required in order to do this cross-node communication. When we'll have these building blocks of, trampoline, trampoline, nodes, when we have the capability, to hold and release the HTLCs, and when we have, the communication infrastructure using onion messages where you can coordinate, the payment, then we'll be able to provide offline payment. It's not really offline, but as synchronous payment, and that, I, I think it's the biggest barrier between non-custodial and custodial user experience to date. So I'm very, very excited about that. I, I can talk about it all day long." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:55", "start": 2215.28, "text": "Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so, I mean, certainly, I think that part of it's really interesting and definitely I see the, the use for people there who maybe they want an easy way to be able to take donations and things that's just online to their Lightning address. now, one criticism I've heard Hodl invoices is that it's locking up liquidity across the network, and that's maybe the, the criticism of this. And perhaps what you were saying is maybe this idea is it would be restricted only into certain cases where maybe, let's say, an LSP is the one doing that at the last hop or the last step, that sort of last mile, if you will. How, how do you see that?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "37:30", "start": 2249.99, "text": "So it's, it's, it's kind of the opposite." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:32", "start": 2251.95, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "37:32", "start": 2252.25, "text": "Yeah. So great, again, yeah, that, that's-- I'm not talking about," }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "37:42", "start": 2261.86, "text": "called the Lightning Road, which uses Hodl invoice, then you're right with your criticism. Then, every payment will require locking the transaction, locking the HLCs for every hop in the route. The improvements I'm referring to, which is using the payer LSP, not the payee LSP, me-meaning the funds are only locked at the first hop between the user and its LSP, so just a single hop You don't, you don't lock the, the, the HTLCs along the, the, the route, just at the first hop, which makes sense because the user sent a payment, so they want to lock their funds, and it's up to the LSP. The LSP becomes the road, the Lightning road, and it's up to the LSP to coordinate the payment, and using onion messages, they will be able to know whether the payee is online or not. Gotcha. So it's an optimization of the, of our initial proposal. And again, shout out to, to Matt Correlo who, who figured this out." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:45", "start": 2325.4, "text": "Yeah, that's fantastic. And so then, as I understand then, as an example, let's say I'm, you know, I'm using this service, I go offline for a few days, maybe I'm hiking or whatever, and then I come back online, and the idea is my, let's say my mobile wallet, let's say my Breeze, can maybe communicate back to the LSP on the payer side and say, \"Hey, I'm ready to take that payment, forward it to me" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:12", "start": 2352.08, "text": "Yeah, executed. Yeah. And so, yeah, so then, that kind of helps that use case as well, 'cause I can imagine, right now, people who are really into Bitcoin, yeah, they'll deal with all these things. But let's say that person maybe one or two layers out in the onion, let's say, the person who is, not that into it and just using it neutrally as a tool, right? And, you know, as, my friend Sergey Kotlyar of Bitrefill made a good point, he was saying, In the same way, if we as a Bitcoin and Lightning community can make tools available that are usable by people who aren't necessarily hardcore Bitcoiners, and they can just neutrally say, \"Oh, hey, I just download this app, I install this, and now I've got a Lightning address, and now people can just pay me to this Lightning address.\" Exactly, exactly." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "39:59", "start": 2399.31, "text": "So it's all about bringing Lightning to the masses. I, I don't think the masses care about, unfortunately, they don't care about custodial, non-custodial, they don't care about," }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "40:12", "start": 2411.86, "text": "The solution, they care about, sending and receiving funds, or they care about, I, I see Lightning as, as really peer-to-peer internet money. So I, I really see it as a way to integrate monetization into existing solutions, into existing applications. So you don't really care about, Bitcoin, you care about the bit-- about Bitcoin as a utility. Applications provide utility, users want utility. That's what we know, by the way, it's-- we, we saw that in Breeze. Whenever we added new utility to Breeze, we jumped by ten x. So whenever we add-- when we added the po-point of sale, we added a wallet, right? a regular wallet which provided the utility. Then we've added the point of sale interface to Breeze, then we jumped in ten x, we grew by order of magnitude just because we added a new utility to Breeze, a new experience to Breeze. Then we've added podcasting to Breeze, we grew by another ten x. So whenever we added utility to- The application, and that's what users want, that's what users need. we grew i-in, in, in, in the number of users and in the number of transactions, and, and it's because users don't care. They don't care about Bitcoin as money so much as they care about the utility it provides. If they, if Bitcoin enables them to accept payments without a bank account, they care. If Bitcoin enables them to send funds to their favorite podcasters, they care Take care. And that's the way we want to, to go about adopting Bitcoin. you can go in the rabbit hole and you can try and educate, people about, sound money, about hard money, take them hand by hand, in down the rabbit hole, but it doesn't scale. However, if we'll provide users with utility, and what Lightning provides is a different utility than what fiat, can provide, then users will Will come to Lightning and will come to Bitcoin, and, and, and adoption will grow, but we need to make sure we're, we're, we're doing Bitcoin, meaning we need to make sure we're doing non-custodial peer-to-peer Bitcoin and not Custodial solutions, because what they can do with custodial solution, it's feasible to do with fiat solutions, well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:32", "start": 2552.22, "text": "Yeah, well said. Well said. and so, as you mentioned there, trampoline routing might be part of the answer there around, you know, this idea of, that. And so, trampoline routing was mentioned at the recent, Lightning developer, protocol developer, meeting, and so there was a bunch of things they mentioned there. and for listeners, Lau Lu did, an email, summary email, and, Of that, so if people are interested, they can see that. I'll, I'll put the link in the show notes for people there. But they talked about, a bunch of things, Taproot channels, gossip, Lightning Network gossip updates, blinded PADS, trampoline routing, and a little bit of discussion about Bolt twelve as well. So I think all of these ideas are really interesting and we're seeing some really interesting ways of interacting and using Lightning, and I probably, you know, LNURL is another example. And I know, I was playing around with the wallet You can go and sign up with a website and use the different, features there. So can you tell us a little bit about your experience there with LNURL and Breeze? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "43:35", "start": 2615.04, "text": "definitely. just to, to summarize our previous discussion, there's several protocol announcement that are needed in order to implement, asset-oriented payment. So you need the lightning path, you need, trampoline routing, you need what Matt calls mailbox, like the, the ability to hold and, and release, payments, and both will Probably gonna be baked into the solution as well. So that's one thing. Another thing that, if you guys, if the listeners are gonna, read about, read the, the summary that Lalu created, splicing is also something that I'm really, really looking forward to because, splicing, splicing, splicing out the way to manage liquidity in, as an LSP, as a routing node is, is key to the development of Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:20", "start": 2659.65, "text": "Yeah. Actually, let's talk about splicing a bit more. So maybe if you could just explain what, what sp Listeners and just kind of talk a little bit about some of the trade-offs around that." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "44:29", "start": 2669.34, "text": "Yeah, definitely. So splicing is the way to, to increase or decrease the channel capacity by doing another on-chain transaction. So let's say I have a one million Satoshi channel between, between the Breeze user and the Breeze LSP, so you can receive payments up to one million Satoshi in a single channel. what we do now in Breeze, if you want to get another one million, Satoshi, want to receive another one- One million Satoshi, you need to open another channel with another one million, Satoshi channel, and then you have, two channels, each of them are one, is a one million Satoshi, when you close that these channels, then you need to close two channels. so you have four on-chain transactions in total, so one for opening the channels and one for closing, the channels. with splicing, you can dynamically increase your existing channel capacity in- In order to receive more funds. So let's say you have one million Satoshi channel, capacity and you want to receive another, another million, then you can just increase the existing channel by a million. When you close the channel, it's just one transaction to close, the channels, but that's not really what's cool about splicing. That's splicing, splicing the ability to, increase the, the channel capacity, splice out the ability to decrease the channel capacity. So let's say Now, as a user, you have your two million satoshis and you decide to buy your, your friends, your girlfriend a present for Valentine's Day, you decide to be, larger than life and spend two million satoshi on your girlfriend. Now you have an, an empty channel, two, two million satoshi empty channels, but the channel isn't empty because really the two million satoshis are on the LSP side, and the funds are really locked. Breeze is an LSP We can't use these two million satoshis that are on our side without closing the channel. However, with splicing, we'll be able to splice out the channel and decrease the channel capacity And reuse some of the funds that are locked on our side in order to manage our liquidity better. So instead of leaving with a situation where all the liquidity or a lot of the liquidity is locked on our side, we'll be able to reuse this liquidity in a more dynamic fashion without closing, people's channels. And I think it's a huge UX improvement in, in two ways. One, one, it will enable us to manage the liquidity much, much better And secondly, it will enable us to manage our cost better because we want to get to a point where every user is just one UTXO, ideally. And maybe we won't be able to, to get to that, but, splicing is a way to minimize the number of UTXOs per, per user, which meaning-- which means reducing costs as a, as an LSP, as a lightning operator." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:34", "start": 2854.35, "text": "That's a really interesting statement of the problem because as you were saying, this idea of let's have- If, if possible, if technically feasible, every user being one UTXO as opposed to the current model today, where many users today who are non-custodial users might have many UTXOs, and especially if they are using CoinJoin and other features like this, then they may have a lot of coins. and then on the other hand, you've got a lot of exchanges who have maybe one or, you know, or obviously they have a lot of UTXOs too, but they might have a lot of users represented, way more than that, so way more than the number We're saying this idea of scaling Bitcoin and Lightning in a non-custodial way, we're trying to get more efficiency, and so splicing is one of the ways to help get that efficiency, both for, both at a Bitcoin network level and also for you as a business, Breeze, to not have to have your capital tied up with all of the different wallet users, Breeze users, let's say. And so this allows you to sort of splice out and be more efficient with the capital cost. And so I think that's also an interesting conversation as well about what What kind of capital costs it takes to, let's say, run a lightning service today, and it's almost like with technical innovation, it can actually lower your capital cost or the required cost, let's say." }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "48:52", "start": 2931.98, "text": "Yes, yes, definitely. So the ability to batch transactions, the ability-- for example, there's a, there's a package relay, proposal from Gloriox where you can, you'll be able to close the channel in a much more cost- Sensitive way, meaning you'll be able to, to close a channel in a, one satoshi per byte, for example, and then send it to the mempool, and then you'll be able to bump the transaction if needed, but if not, in an optimal manner, you'll be able to close the channel in a very low cost fee. Most of the lightning node operation, from a bridge, like you, you need to di-differentiate be-between a typical routing node and, and an LSP. LSP, a lot of the services that, they provide is around opening and closing channels, so fees, transaction fees are a large part of, the operating cost is, and, and we talked about UTXO, but we didn't, we, we didn't mention that you can have multiple UTXOs in a single Bitcoin transaction. So one part of the job is to, to do that, to get to a point where you'll be, you are able to batch as many UTXOs into a single, transaction, both for opening channels and for closing channels, in, in, in, in liquidity management, meaning there's always cost if you're not allocating your liquidity properly, meaning if you're not, generating enough routing Routing fees from the liquidity that you are locking in your node, then you're not doing your job as a lightning operator. the s-the-the sauce, the secret sauce about managing your routing node, is about allocating your liquidity properly for it to generate the maximum, the maximum yield that it can generate. And that meani-that means always dynamically allocating the liquidity to the place, the liquidity is Mostly needed. How do you know the liquidity is mostly needed? Because that means the users are active. If their users are active, it means they route payment through using your liquidity, which translate to routing fees. so traffic, generate yields, and you need to put your liquidity where, where there's traffic, and that means constantly changing the, the liquidity map, the liquidity allocation in your node." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:27", "start": 3087.01, "text": "Right. And, the general idea being you wanna have it in the direction that people are paying to, so then they wanna use your channel, and then they're paying you a routing fee for that. And so that's kind of, I guess, one general way to think about it. So, yeah, it just, it, it just is very fascinating. Think about where it's all going because I had a recent episode with, zero fee routing, and he has a very interesting model, right? Because it's a very upfront model, people pay him upfront for a channel, but then it's actually zero fees. So his theory is kind of like merchants will be the ones who pay those fees, because it's like, you know, in the same way that when you go to, a mall, they pay for certain facilities, to kind of make it good for customers to go there, right? Like whether there's, you know, Pay that fee, and end users won't-- or it'll obviously be calculated into the cost of what you're buying. But I, I'm curious how that works and how you're seeing that, or do you see it more like, it'll be more about the PPM fee that people are charging just to route on the Lightning Network?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "52:31", "start": 3150.96, "text": "I think so. I, I understand where zero fee routing is coming from, and I think he sees a channel as a, as an object, as an entity where you-- that user Can buy and reuse later. I think the, the, if, if we want to do Lightning at scale, channels in, in a way need to be offscated, so users don't need to know about, channels, so they don't need to know they are buying the ability to receive payments. I think that's a bit clunky and it creates a user experience Friction. I think, there's a built-in mechanism in Lightning which is routing fees to provide the incentives or to, to, to, to provide incentives for Lightning node operators. And I'm, I, I, I still, like, you can create an, a, a, every, every business model that you want, when it comes to Lightning, because Lightning, you can like create anything on top of, Lightning, but I think the, the built-in incentives are there for a reason because It's really the, the way to measure your value. Meaning, what, what do I mean? I mean, if you did a, a, a, a good job in liquidity allocation, it means that people are using your service. Is, it means that people find value in your service. If people find value in your so-service, you should be able to monetize it, not just one time, but monetize it as a service. so you can do that either by subscription, for example, but why not using routing? If routing fees are baked into the, the, the platform, routing fees are a way to manifest the value to, that you bring in the network. So I, I, I, I still think that routing fees are the way to go, but I see, I see, I see a reason to play with other models like zero fee, routing. It's, it's an interesting model, and I'm following what he, he does very closely." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:34", "start": 3274.32, "text": "Yeah, right, of course. And it's, it's not like the two approaches Are one hundred percent wholly in conflict. It may well be that you're both right in your own way and that, you know, generally there are fees on the Lightning Network per-- You know, yeah. On the channel at the PPM fee, right? but there may be some actors within the Lightning Network who have their own business model that operates in a different way and they're just charging like an upfront fee for service and that's just a different model. So it'll be really interesting to see what happens there. And I think the other point as well, just coming back to the sp" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:08", "start": 3307.52, "text": "Really want to maximize the possible scalability of Bitcoin, the idea is every on-chain transaction, or maybe not every, but the idea is the more on-chain transactions that are doing some channel work at the same time, then that's being more efficient, right? So as an example, if, I don't know, just picking random numbers or kind of back of the envelope numbers, let's say every block is something like two thousand or three thousand transactions, and the max number of transactions per day is something on the order of four hundred thousand, maybe five hundred thousand, something like that roughly, then that only means you Open four hundred thousand channels a day, or five hundred, you know, and that's the maximum, right? Yeah, yeah. and if we've got eight billion people, we're just nowhere ne- we're nowhere near the right numbers, like in to- in terms of everybody being able to do that. But at least if we're getting more efficiency with splicing and being able to batch things across multiple, participants in one go, then at least we're getting closer to that maximum and that, better scalability aspect. I'm curious if you have any reflections on, on that" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "56:08", "start": 3367.52, "text": "The, the paradigm for, f-from number of transaction to the block size, right? Because if you think that you can batch multiple UTXOs in a single transaction, then it becomes how, a, a game of how you-- how many UTXOs you can, you can batch into, into a transaction and that way optimize your business, but your cons-- your constraints become the block size. so I think that's also important to look on the, actually on the, on the block size And not really on the number of, transactions that you can do, you can execute. Correct. I, I, I think, I think, going forward, like, there's always this fad of, you can't onboard, eight billion people to Bitcoin because, because of the blockchain constraints. Well, I, I will leave with that, constraint. And, and the Lightning doesn't solve all Bitcoin scalability issues, and we are by design, are constrained by the blockchain constraint. I don't know if, if in a few years we'll be able to, if we want to, increase the block size or not. I don't care. I think the, the, the numbers right now are, are working for onboarding. So I think if we'll be able to onboard, the, one billion people in a time span of five years, I, I'm good with that. Like, I will sleep, well at night if that's the case." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:37", "start": 3456.76, "text": "Right. And to be As I said, those back of the envelope numbers, like let's say four hundred thousand transactions a day, one transaction can have multiple outputs, and so if you, if you're doing like multi-channel opens in one transaction, then the numbers change a little bit. But then it's kind of like, for each user, they still need to do some on-chain management, right? Look, if they are receiving and spending, and let's say they might, on average, need to do a transaction to sort of, you know, loop in or out or to sort of splice in or out SP level could batch that across multiple users, and then maybe that, that's where we're getting more, we're kind of getting more bang for our buck here, and we're, we're, you know, getting engineering, technical innovation that really takes us further. so yeah, it's really exciting to see what happens with it. Of course, those are kind of the end, end game, let's say, numbers. Of course, we're still a long way from that today in terms of non-custodial users, but of course, we're, we're sort of beginning with the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:38", "start": 3517.56, "text": "Same kind of idea, right? Like people might not wanna sign up for an email unless they know there's lots of other people they can email. And in the same way, they might think, \"Oh, why bother with this Bitcoin or Lightning thing?\" Unless there's already a lot of Lightning merchants and Lightning people who they can use it with today. And that's really just the process of Bitcoin adoption is getting more and more people onboarded. And," }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "58:57", "start": 3536.59, "text": "and, and focus on the value proposition. We need to focus on the value proposition. I think that, I think that's the-- if there's one Because people don't care. People don't care about Bitcoin, unfortunately. People don't care about Lightning, unfortunately. I mean, most people. People don't-- they care just about the utility it provides. They do care if the-- it enables them to become a merchant without a bank account. They do care if it provides them with a new, a new way to interact with money, meaning stream satoshis or execute micro-payment, earn money on micro-tasks. That's where they care, and that's why they care. so provide value like any other service. Bitcoin needs to provide value. When we'll be able to provide value, then Bitcoin will get adopted." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:49", "start": 3589.29, "text": "Fantastic. Well, I think that's a great spot to finish, Roy. Where can people find you and where can they find Breeze online?" }, { "speaker": "roy_sheinfeld", "time": "59:55", "start": 3595.27, "text": "they can find us at, breeze dot technology online. They can find us at Twitter breeze underscore tech. They can find us, they can follow us on Medium. A Breeze technology publication, we, Breeze, I forgot to mention, is completely open source, so we welcome everyone to look, take a look at our GitHub, repository, everything end to end, including our server, everything is, open source, so we welcome PRs and contribution and, and scrutiny, from, from listeners, and you can find me, you can find me easily, just Google my name." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:33", "start": 3633.14, "text": "Fantastic. Well, I really enjoyed chatting with you, Roy. Thanks Thanks for joining me. Thank you, Stefan. Thank you. Some of the links and earlier episodes that we discussed in the show are in the show notes. You can get that at stephanlivera dot com slash three eight six. Thanks for listening, and I will see you in the city of dolls." } ] }