{ "episodeId": "SLP388", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "meron_estefanos": { "name": "Meron Estefanos", "role": "guest", "tag": "MERON" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.43, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stefan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today I've got a really interesting and slightly different episode for you about the connection between Bitcoin, human rights and refugees. But first, this show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, and Swan Bitcoin is putting on a conference. It's called Pacific Bitcoin. It will be on November 10th and 11th this year in El- California. Now, this is going to be the biggest Bitcoin only conference ever. You can hang out with thousands of Bitcoiners from around the world, and of course, I'll be there, and I'm looking forward to it. You can catch your favorite Bitcoin educators on the main stage, you can ask questions and hang out with them at the conference and at the events throughout the week. This one is gonna be optimized for fun with sports, games, music, photo opportunities, and high fives. This will be like the main event of LA Bitcoin Week, and there'll be all kinds of educational opportunities, meet At the inaugural Pacific Bitcoin Conference, it's in LA, November 10th and 11th, 2022. The website is p a c bitcoin dot com. Lend at HodlHodl is a peer-to-peer Bitcoin-backed lending platform where you can anonymously borrow stablecoins against your Bitcoin. So with Lend at HodlHodl, you don't have to sell your Bitcoin, you can take a portion of your coins and put them up in an overcollateralized loan where you are borrowing stablecoins and you still hold one key of the three throughout the whole deal All these deals are happening directly between users, and so you can set the terms, or you can accept the terms that somebody else has put up in terms of how much you want to lend or borrow, the interest rate, and the term. So go and check that out, it's over at lend dot hodl hodl dot com. Now, if you're in Bitcoin mining, you've got to check out Brains. Brains are a software and service provider in the Bitcoin mining space, and they're also putting out a range of Bitcoin mining educational content that you can find over on their blog over at brains Dashboard, which you can use to check out mining profitability calculators and keep up to date on what's going on in the world of Bitcoin mining. Now, if you have Bitcoin mining ASIC, you need to also check out if you can use BrainsOS Plus. BrainsOS Plus gives you more bang for your buck. You can improve your efficiency on your machine by as much as twenty-five percent. Now, you can point your hash rate towards any pool, but if you point your hash rate towards Slashpool while using BrainsOS Plus, you get zero percent pool fees. So another benefit for you there. That's over at brains dot com with two eyes. Now for episode three hundred and eighty-eight today, my guest is Meron Estefanos. She is an activist and journalist, and I met her at HRF's conference, the Oslo Freedom Forum, recently in Oslo, Norway. Now Meron has a really interesting story. It's not the typical one that you might hear on SLP, but we talk about her journey and her activism and journalism in helping over twenty thousand refugees and helping to stop stop human traffickers, as well as how she's using Bitcoin as part of her operation and how she's teaching Bitcoin today. So I think you'll find this one a really interesting one and a little bit different. So without any further ado, onto the interview with Meron. Meron, welcome to the show!" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "03:15", "start": 195.48, "text": "Thank you, Stephan, for having me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:17", "start": 197.46, "text": "So, Meron, I know you have a very interesting story, and I, obviously I had the chance to meet you recently at the HRF Oslo Freedom Forum, and we were chatting a little bit about Bitcoin and what you're doing with it as well. So, yeah, let's hear a little bit about you and, you know, what your story is." }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "03:33", "start": 213.04, "text": "I am Meron Estefanos. I'm based in Sweden. I grew up here in Sweden. I came to, to, from Eritrea originally when I was 18. So Sweden is my home. And I'm an activist, and my activism led me into journalism, and, together with, the other activists, we started our own radio, broadcasting into Eritrea, I have to tell you a bit about Eritrea. Eritrea is a very closed society. It's often referred as a North Africa of, as a North Korea of Africa. It's a very closed society with maybe two to three percent internet access, to the population, where everybody between the age of fifteen, sixteen until you are fifty, you have to do a, a military service as part of you national service to the country, since the country was, it's a new country, it's not that new, it's, well, it became independent in 1991. There was a, a war to liberate Eritrea for thirty years. My parents were activists as well. my dad because he was wanted, he had to leave, so that's the reason why we came to Sweden to begin with. And then later, Eritrea was liberated, we got our independence in 1991, and, and everybody from there, the diaspora, we went home and, and we were celebrating, hoping finally now we have a country that we can call our home. Secondly, we are going to have the, the-- I mean, when we were fighting for liberation or for Eritrean independence, it was for democracy, it was for justice, it was so that no Eritrean have to flee his or her country anymore. So we just overcame one of the oppressor, only this time it's, our brothers and sisters that freed us. We had that pride and, and, and but later, you know, it just took like few months, for the, gorilla leader who now is our president, five months after independence, he said, \"That's it, we don't need democracy. We've never had democracy. It's gonna take some time, so let's wait with it.\" And, and everybody just, no one reacted. Those that reacted were already imprisoned the same year that Eritrea was independent. So slowly, you know, nineteen ninety-seven, we were supposed to have a constitution, the constitution was supposed to be implemented, it was already approved by the parliament, by the people, so the president, because he didn't wanna implement the constitution, he started a war with Ethiopia and which led endless, slavery to the young people because the military service or the national, what so-called national service, was decided that it was going to be a year and eight months as part to build the, the country after independence, but in- Instead, it became totally a militarized state where everybody from age fifteen, sixteen, it can take thirty years. My younger brother is another example. He, he went to the military at the age of fifteen, and he had to escape at the age of thirty-five. Imagine twenty years of your time in a military, no education, nothing, you're just Guarding prison, that's what my brother's job was, until he got a chance he had to flee. So for this reason, many Eritreans escape from Eritrea. They feel, you know, rather than me being a slave of the state for thirty years, forty years, because you get discharged when you are fifty, so nobody wants to wait. So we, you know, my people believe that fleeing is the only solution, and for this reason, we have become like, one of the mass refugee producers in the world next to Syrians. So my activism, when I became an Activist, it was just, I had no clue if I wanted to become an activist or not. It was just I decided to move back to Eritrea. I had no clue that it was a di- a dictatorship. Once I got there, everybody was like, \"Did you get deported from Sweden?\" I said, \"No, I, I, I moved. This is my country.\" and everybody was like, \"Please, if you aren't-- if you didn't get deported, if you can leave the country legally, so make sure you leave.\" And nobody was happy that" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "07:33", "start": 452.98, "text": "The person that was happy is of course my mother, but the rest everybody was telling me, \"Please leave before they do anything for you.\" And I didn't understand because, for me at that time, it was just, \"This is a government that, that freed us from our colonizers.\" How is it possible that people are complaining so much because I've never lived there, I never understood? So it took two years for me to open my eyes and actually understand what was going on in the country, because as a person that haven't done anything for the country, I had more rights than anybody, just because I happen to have a Swedish nationality, a Swedish passport that I can show whenever they stop me, while my younger brother Who would come for a visit once a year for thirty days, and he have to show his ID, I mean, a permission to move around the city, you need to have that. And in every block that we go, like the military police would ask us, \"Where is your permission paper to move around the city?\" And then I show my Swedish passport, and my brother have to show his military, release passport for a month. But if that expires, then it's automatically prison. so I've seen all my childhood friends, and, and even women, you know, they're- Military service is for everybody, it's not only for men. So my childhood friends were in the military for fifteen years, some of them sixteen years, and that just didn't make sense. I kept thinking that would have been me if I, had I not grown up in Sweden, that just could have been me, this could have been my life, and it, it woke me up and, and I said, you know, at that time my son was a year and a half, he wasn't even two, so I decided I don't want my son to grow up in, country that were Eritrea was, so that was, that was it. I came back and, and when I came back, I wasn't deciding to become an activist, but, you know, I saw a lot of those that grew up with me idolizing the, the dictatorship in Eritrea just like me because we lived in, in Despota, we, we never lived there, so they start saying Eritrea is on the right track, Eritrea is doing great It just became like the propaganda mouth for the regime, which I couldn't accept. So the more they start saying, things that wasn't untrue, I had to correct them by saying, \"No, I've been there, I just came back after living there for two years. Actually, the situation in Eritrea is, this is what's going on.\" And the more I told the truth, the more everybody was pushing me away, and, and then I, I start, they start calling me a traitor. Which I had to look for other activists like, that thought like me, and, and so I joined, university students that, that went to South Africa to do their masters from Eritrea, and they decided not to go back and, and they, they wanted to oppose the regime, so that inspired me, and I contacted them and I said, can I join your group? And, so that's how my activism started. And the same group, decided to broadcast radio into Eritrea because when you don't have people that are using internet, the young people, until you are discharged from the military, you're not allowed to, to own a cell phone, because to, to have a cell phone, to have a SIM card, you need to show that you are discharged from the military. So that means no young person can use, even if you have a smartphone, it's, it's useless because you don't I think the only reason people have smartphone is to take pictures, where it's nothing else, there is no use for it. So we decided, how do we reach the people? And, and shortwave, you know, everybody can't afford short, shortwave, so we said, let's do this. And I start doing radio from my kitchen, that's where I'm talking to you right now from, in two thousand and six, broadcasting into Eritrea, which led, a bit later on, we, we start doing twenty-four hours satellite, radio where Asked for twenty four hours. And, so my program, you know, from discussing the dictatorship in Eritrea, I got tired by two thousand eight, and, and inside that said, I mean, like, I don't feel like I can reach my people, 'cause I'm fighting to, to free my people, but at the same time, it, it felt like I'm too far away, I'm in Sweden, is radio enough? And I, I start questioning my activism and, and, and myself, what exactly is it that I want? I'm not political, I'm not seek-- seeking to become like a political leader or anything, but I like helping people. So I said, if I can't reach the people in Eritrea, at least let me reach the people that are outside of Eritrea, because as I said, we are the most-- one of the most refugee-producing countries. So I said, look, it's the same thing helping Eritreans inside Eritrea or outside Eritrea should be the same. And two thousand and eight, my whole focus shifted into refugee related issues, so- I started, interviewing refugees that were stuck in Libya on their way to, to come to, to Europe, and at that time, the European Union had paid, Gaddafi to stop these refugees and migrants from crossing into Europe, and, and which is basically the same thing now, we're just doing, history is repeating, which is sad. So at that time basically was the same thing, people were fleeing by boat, drowning. The only difference is at that time, these refugees didn't have a, a satellite phone, but if from prisons, you know, they could smuggle in phones and, and they start contacting me, and what was supposed to be one interview became a lifetime work, and, and so suddenly, you know, my phone number became a hotline for refugees, where refugees who are imprisoned in Egypt or anywhere in the Middle East Is, you know, they will find my number written in, at the wall and, and they don't know if Meron is a girl or, or a guy because I have a unisex name, and all they know is they would just say, \"We don't know who Meron is, but we found the number at the prison.\" Or sometimes it could be refugees that are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea, and, and so they would call and, and, and say please help us. After that, we leave our lives in your hand, which I don't want to, because we're talking about eight hundred, seven hundred, nine hundred people in one boat that, that's fit for one hundred person. they are very overcrowded, they are doomed to die in a minute, and then you have the European bureaucracy that doesn't, nobody wants to help people because helping, rescuing these people would mean taking them into your country. So I'm just left, by myself trying to figure out how to send them help because they keep calling and screaming Not realizing the situation, and I would always ask, \"Just give me the location, and then call the Italian coast guards.\" And the Italian coast guards would say, \"No, I called the Maltese, they are near Malta, and Malta will say, \"Call Italy.\" So sometimes it goes back and forth, seventy hours, seventy-eight hours until help reached. Sometimes the water is up to here, and, and people don't know, you know, it, it, it just makes you- That kind of cruelty, you know, I, I hate the people that put them in a boat, the greedy people that are char- overcharging these people, we're talking about the poorest of the poorest can't buy a boat. It's not people- That could, buy a fl- flight ticket or something, but, on their way, you know, they are kidnapped, these people, they are tortured for ransom. We're talking about the poorest of the poorest, people are extorted for sixty thousand dollars a person, sometimes it goes up to seventy thousand dollars a person, where you just have to depend on, on our, on our community because these families can't raise anything. I remember when I started with, the ransom When people start getting kidnapped and start calling me, there was this priest that I used to talk to, he was, thirty-six, and he was kidnapped on, on-- So the kidnappers, what they start doing is, because they know Eritreans are fleeing in mass because of the dictatorship, the-- So the kidnappers wait in Sudan, which is like the neighboring country, that's where we flee to, so right at the borders, they wait for you. And pretend to help you to show you where the immigration is, or to ask asylum, but instead you are put in a trafficker's car where you will be sold off to Egyptians or elsewhere, where you'll be ra- tortured for ransom for months and months, sometimes it goes on like for two years until the full money ransom is paid. So this priest is one of the first group that I spoke to, and thirty-six just fled because he, he served in the military for eighteen years or something, so he got tired. Of the situation and decided to flee, and then he got kidnapped, taken to Egypt in the Sinai, and he's being tortured, and his voice was very weak, so he was tortured more because he was a priest, because the tortures are also-- I don't see them as religious, but they pretend to be religious enough, and they, they would say they are Muslims that torture people, which was crazy, but- This man, for being a priest, he's, he's being tortured more. So at that time, you know, he was really sick, and, and, and, the ho- the other hostages, one day, well, called me and, and said, \"Sorry, Meron, but, the, the priest died.\" I had just interviewed him, I don't know, maybe an hour ago or two hours ago, I could tell that his voice was very weak. and they said please contact his family, we can't call them, but because the, the traffickers, what they do is they don't, when your loved one has died, they don't let you know, they still charge you, believi- and you believe that you're paying to get him released, but he's already dead." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:51", "start": 1010.95, "text": "Wow, terrific." }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "16:52", "start": 1012.37, "text": "Yeah. So the hostages were worried, and they were like, \"Please call, On a packet it was written his family's, telephone numbers. So I called, when I called that phone number, I asked for his sister, and so the person that answered the phone says, \"Oh, it's a village, call back tomorrow. At this time, I'll have to send someone because it's so rural area, they don't even have a phone. His family doesn't even own a phone. So they sent someone, and the next day I, I'm talking to someone who's claiming to be his sister, and then I said, \"Oh, \" So what are you guys doing for him? And, and then she explained to me, no, actually I grew up with him and like his sister, but his sister is going around to different villages and collecting money for his release. So his whole village sold everything they own, cutlery and some of those that had gold, sold gold, and still wasn't enough. So they had-- because he was a priest, he was highly liked and well res-respected in the villages in the area, because he was the only priest. So because the money that his village raised wasn't enough, they had-- his sister had to go to the second village, and the second village sold all they owned And the money was nineteen thousand five hundred, but she needed five hundred dollars more. That's when the person dies, and she was already in the third village collecting, trying to collect the five hundred left. So the reason I'm telling you this story is That we are so poor that this guy left Eritrea to have a better life, but he got his family poorer than they were, he got his own village poorer than they were, and the second village, and the third village, but still they couldn't even manage to save him. So this is how money is collected often, and, and as a result of this, over ten thousand of my people died, because they couldn't pay ransom. for me it became too much, so I started raising money to pay ransom and- because I just couldn't understand in this time that there is slavery, that people are being tortured and chained, dehumanized, in a very sadistic way. It's not even about money only, but it's about humiliating. they would force two best friends, if they see two men that lived together and they were both best friends, they would just force them to rape each other, just to humiliate them so that they aren't friends anymore, so that there is shame. they could force a father to rape his daughter, they can force He's the brother, raped his sister, just, it's just for fun. so we're talking about like, and one of the most cruellest thing that I've ever heard, heard in my life, and it totally changed my life as well because I couldn't understand that people, human beings, can be this cruel. so basically this is my activism, and this is what I do. I'm sorry I, I, I spoke too long." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:43", "start": 1183.47, "text": "Yeah, no, no, that's a, a really good, context, very horrific context in terms of what is And so what do you think about, I guess the, it's probably like really ethically challenging as well, because in that way where you're thinking about, well, do we pay the ransom? Then we're sort of funding these traffickers and slaver types. But at the same time, if you don't pay the ransom, then these people are just stuck. And, and so I guess it's also kind of a challenging thing because the person who's leaving and trying to go out of the country to have a better life, are the other people in their town or their village begrudging them trying to They saying, \"No, go out and try to, you know, try to get freedom.\"" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "20:27", "start": 1226.98, "text": "I mean, parents don't tell you to leave. No child tells his, his or her parents that they're leaving. Nobody does. So when you escape, it's not planned, like I'm gonna go in three months this way or that way, it's, it's just the second you get a chance, you flee. There is no preparation, no one tells their parents often. So the, the, the traffickers and the smugglers are so creative. So what they do is they tell these young people, \"Oh, you don't have to pay now, zero down payment to get there, and, and but you pay us once you are to the last, closest to the last destination.\" So the parents are in, you know, every parent and all of us, the people that live in diaspora, we, we tell our loved ones to wait wherever they are, that we will find them a legal way, a safe way, you know, pay, if you pay money like thirty thousand dollars, you can get someone here, as long as there is money, you know, either through fake passport or there are different means, or you can marry someone for thirty thousand dollars or twenty-five thousand dollars and get a full status in any country you want, but These young people know that the process to, to get to Europe safely will take years and years and years because they've seen those that left before them, it has taken years for them, so they, they, they just wanna take the risk of, you know, they will tell you, \"Uh, I'd rather die trying than dying under this dictatorship,\" because they feel it's one of the, a dictatorship that you can't penetrate because, you know, this time it's our own that are oppressing us, it's not outsiders, and this time it's, they know us They speak the same language that, like us, and this time, the, the government has done that in each house they have an informant. So your, your brother could be an informant you don't really know, because to survive, every, everyone has turned into an informant. Your mother could be an informant just so that she could survive also, so that she can get food from the government. So they give Russians for those that are informants, they give, movement, I mean, to move around, they give you permission papers to move around because you are an informant. So there is a privilege For this reason, no one trusts anybody, so everybody hates the government. Everybody would love to do something about it, but, what one thing the government is good at is, you know, throwing these mistrustful rumors so that one doesn't trust the other and things. So for that reason, we urge the diaspora is trying, but I don't believe the diaspora will ever free the people inside unless, and the people inside, there is no young people, so you need young people to revolt because all the young people are kept in the middle of Of nowhere with no media, no internet, they have no clue what's going on. Sometimes I get in place because we are neighbors to neighbor, I get phone calls from Eritreans that actually flee to Yemen because Yemen is our neighbor. So you're like, Yemen is right now, I mean, people are fleeing from Yemen for how many years? But sadly my people, because there is no information, there's no nothing that they hear about it, so of course These people, they just flee to wherever they find, and then they are stuck in the middle of the war in Yemen between the Houthis and the others. And you're like, you don't really know what to do. You always say, \"But why would you flee to Yemen?\" And they say that, \"But Yemen is the closest to-- from where I was militarized, the closest, the only place to flee is to Yemen.\" So, for my people, you know, revolting like the Arab Spring or elsewhere is gonna take time unless our mothers and grandmothers start doing something I don't see that happening anytime soon, and, and the dictatorship is, is being emboldened on a daily basis because of the refugee related issues. Like European Union and others are supporting, these tyrants that are oppressing us as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:06", "start": 1446.09, "text": "Very sad to hear. And so in terms of today, like, what's your focus today? what stuff are you working on in this, area?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "24:16", "start": 1456.36, "text": "So I, I, you know, after listening to so much cries of, of the refugees I just got tired. I say that's it because I've cried enough for 18 years I've been doing this, and I, I say that's it, I'm not doing this anymore. So now I hand down the traffickers that, that did all this. I don't accept phone calls anymore, and I've already have young activists doing that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:38", "start": 1477.71, "text": "Yeah, and I guess just for context as well, about how many refugees did you end up helping?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "24:45", "start": 1484.63, "text": "I mean, it's, it's a lot. just in the Mediterranean alone I don't like to talk about it, but over twenty thousand probably, that's just, the sea, rescue, but, you know, there are hundreds and hundreds that I paid ransom for to rescue others from, elsewhere as well. But I, I don't think about numbers, I, I never think about that to be honest." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:10", "start": 1510.29, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. 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So if you're interested, go to CoinKite dot com and order your Have your hardware wallet device already, you can get a metal seed backup there. The seed plate is available, that's all over at coinkite dot com. And now back to the show. Yeah, well that's, I mean that's, yeah, it's a lot. So yeah, so, you were saying you have nowadays you, there are other people who are helping in what you used to do?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "27:57", "start": 1677.08, "text": "Yeah, exactly. So young activists that I inspired later, but I decided to retire from radio and, and, and from talking to refugees on the phone. I don't wanna just, There is no one, so I had to train two young activists, one is Satsaye, she's also a former HRF, a Oslo Freedom Forum speaker, so I-- she created a hotline, where I, together we designed it, where there is always someone twenty-four hours that will answer through WhatsApp, Facebook or different means, so that means people will reach them anytime. So I'm happy with that, and, then I just start focusing into researching about these traffickers, who are they? Where is the money going? Who's behind them? So I start collaborating with, different, authorities in the world, like police departments in Europe, US, from all over the world, you know, different, prosecutors, and I was, police start coming and, and asking for information because when you're talking to refugees, so you have so much information, and then I understood, okay. So these traffickers they are wanted, so I can't collaborate, even though I hate what Europe is doing at the same time, because they are blocking these people so that there is no, there is no safe way to get to Europe. On top of it, I mean, European Union, the so-called European Union that's supposed to be champions of human right, is actually now financing coast guards that are the smugglers themselves. They are financing to keep them wherever it is, do whatever you want to beat them up, if you want to humiliate them, if you want, as long as you don't in, in the European waters. So often people talk about Black Lives Matter, we see the brutality in US, but Europe is more brutal to, to, towards Blacks and Browns rather than the US actually. It's just not that visible because people don't care when they see two hundred Syrians dying, in, in Greece or, or eight hundred Sub-Saharan Africans dying in the Mediterranean Sea on their way to Italy. it has become a common sense that no one even think about it, but, it's our government Governments and our tax money, and that pisses me off as an European citizen as well. That, but having said that, at the same time, I do work with them because the people that are exploiting and, and abusing these refugees, the traffickers, are wanted by many European countries and also African countries, Asian countries, Americans, you name it, most of them do come to me and, and, and we collaborate because I, I, I know more about the traffickers than they do because it's a, I've been keeping information for, I don't know how many years So now, I have researchers in different countries that, that, that investigate these things for me and, and that's, where Bitcoin comes in." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:45", "start": 1845.11, "text": "Fantastic. And so I guess, yeah, could you maybe at a high level, have you had any success with, let's say, going after track of traffickers or information that you provided went on to later help stop these traffickers?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "30:58", "start": 1857.5, "text": "Oh yeah, we just had two years ago, identified over fifty in one country and, and so we got three, how was it, four in another country, so we get total nine people get arrested, but throughout the years probably twenty, twenty five, traffickers with my help, you know, like whether it's the US, has arrested two big traffickers before and it was with my help because they had no clue that the person's, the real name or what the person was living. Providing the right location and things, yeah, many get arrested, and I, I plan, there are too many, you know, it's not even one person hasn't been arrested, and also you have the people that are behind, because often, you know, we have the known smugglers, but and traffickers, but there's always a high-level person on top that's protecting these people, and, and that's why I, I do most of my research is trying to figure out who is higher up and, and where is the money going and, and So it became like a lifetime, dedication for me because I've, I've heard so much cruelty, I had to notify so many mothers that their sons have died, even though I never met their sons, and I feel like Someone have to pay for it. I mean, we can't just, okay, the Europeans and others don't care because we are Africans. That's why, we are left with ransom or there's no other option, and that's why we pay ransom even though we know it encourages the traffickers. But there's not nothing. You know, in the same place we're talking about, in Egypt, Sinai, when my people were- Kidnapped there over ten thousand at one time. The same time, there were two Americans kidnapped in the same area, and the US got them out within forty eight hours. We don't know what, what they did, but they got them out, that's the point. But at that time, for my people, nobody cared. so at last, what do you do? You just say, even though it's wrong, you just-- I can't not let a child, because when a child was being tortured, two year old child, I just, I couldn't, I, I," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:59", "start": 1979.27, "text": "But, it's also good to hear that some of the information you've helped provide has helped lead to stopping some of the traffickers. So maybe if you could tell us a little bit about your approach nowadays with the researchers and what you're doing and maybe also, where you're using Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "33:15", "start": 1994.84, "text": "so as I said, I have researchers in Europe, I have researchers in Uganda, many places in Africa that do basically my research is always about human trafficking, following the money or exploitation of refugees. So- So, well, this refuge-- this researchers, especially those in Ethiopia, for example, Ethiopia is becoming, Eritrea is becoming like a dictatorship, it's in an early of s-- state of dictatorship, but there is a civil war, there is an ethnic cleansing going on, there is a genocide happening in Ethiopia right now So being an activist is dangerous to be an activist in Ethiopia right now, and, and, and just associating with me could mean death sentence to many, and it has happened before where Over two hundred, people that were in contact with me were arrested and sentenced for over ten years, yes, for having in contact with me. so it was always difficult sending money, you know, I used to use my friends, to use it because if I send via Western Union, not only is it expensive, but that your name is, recorded and that person needs an ID. so it was always difficult and I had to send using Hawala, and Hawala system is that you give someone money here and then they give money to you. Family or to whoever you're sending, but it's, it's never, there is no guarantee with it as well. You're just giving to someone you don't know, hoping that it, it will reach your family, and it normally does, but anything can happen. But we're talking about people sending one hundred thousand dollars through hawala systems, and so, you know, any minute anything can happen. And I've heard stories of people disappearing with your money. So, you know, when I took the HRF Bitcoin workshop, the way it was explained at the workshop was it just made sense, Hundreds of Bitcoin workshops before, but I never paid attention or it didn't, it just didn't speak to me maybe. But, when HRF did the online workshop, so we had miners from Venezuela explaining why they start mining, why are they using Bitcoin, and how did it sell, help their community, and also when you're fighting against dictatorship, I, it just- clicked to me and then I said, \"Yeah, I mean, to take the dictatorship's power, you just have to take their money, and, and that's where it hurts the most. and not only, but it frees the people as well, because in Eritrea, if you have a million dollars in your bank account, you're not allowed to take more than two hundred a, a month, two hundred dollars, and for a business person, it's five hundred a month.\" That's it. Even though you have millions in your account, the government decide how much money you're supposed to take out. Let's say I wanna get married and I have enough money in my bank account, and I go and I, I say, \"Oh, I need one hundred thousand because I'm gonna get married.\" And they actually- Sit down with you, do the budget for you, and say, \"How many people are you inviting? 50? Okay, this should be enough for 50 people from your own money.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:15", "start": 2175.37, "text": "They take that level of control over your finances. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "36:19", "start": 2178.53, "text": "Exactly. So, you know, most businessmen, they, they, they, they prefer to keep their money outside, but, exchanging money in black market is, it just doesn't even exist. I mean, it exists, but it's, it's the government that control the black market as well. there is no free person that can exchange money because, the government will find out within a day or two they have all, in four months all over the place and, and people are arrested for exchanging money or if you are caught with cash more than the two hundred that I told you that you're supposed to take out in a month, then there will be questions where did you get this cash and, and you can get arrested as well. So it's a scra-scary place to be. So, after taking the HRF, workshop, I just, you know, it made sense, you know, the wallets, the Lightning wallets, it was so interesting to hear about it and, and right away start using, and, and I decided, let me teach my, my researchers the same way that was taught to me, the same workshop, I, I, I gave the same workshop to those, my researchers in Uganda, in, in- in, in Sudan and, and, and, and Eritrea and, and Ethiopia, suddenly, it became so easy for them as well, and, and right away I sent fifty dollars each to every one of them, and so they were so happy, they, they just went to Paxful and exchanged it and, and got back the money that they needed, but it was fast And they had the option of keeping it, keeping it in Bitcoin or exchanging it. But what's the best of all is that the government doesn't even have to know that people, that these people get paid or that it's from Meron or anything. so I loved it, and I start giving, workshops for refugees in different places. So what I do is between ten to fifteen refugees at a time, I give the same workshop that, that was given to me by HRF. except it takes them more time because for these people they're not technical, some of them have never even used a phone in their life, some of them have never seen a computer in their life, so it becomes-- The HRF workshop was a two-day workshop, but I give like a five-day workshop sometimes because if they don't understand it, I, I just have to, to do it again and again until it makes sense to them and they can start using and receiving money. so now it's, it's, it's working great and translated a little Bitcoin Into Tigrinya, into my language, that has helped a lot as well, and now possibly I'm, I'm thinking of mining somewhere in Africa, I'm discussing about," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:56", "start": 2336.25, "text": "oh, great." }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "38:57", "start": 2337.39, "text": "About that as well. So we will see what happens, but, right now I'll be in Africa myself on the ground, helping single mothers, and of course it's, the NGO is going to be integrated into Bitcoin, where my NGO will be giving, s-teaching skills to single mothers. I'm a single mother myself. I know how hard it is to, to be a single mother, and, and especially for the child, because when you are the son or the daughter of a single mother in, in a poor country, that means you're doomed. Nothing, so I felt like this is where I wanna focus, and teach them skills, but to make them owners of their life so that they can have a business, that's integrated to Bitcoin. It's, it's, we're designing it, it's a headache right now, but, hopefully in few months we'll be up starting and, and, and hopefully in four or five months we'll have set up the mining as well somewhere in Africa." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:49", "start": 2389.38, "text": "Fascinating. And so when you are teaching a person about Bitcoin, what sort of tools? Tools and things are you teaching them?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "39:57", "start": 2397.24, "text": "I mean, just explaining the whole block-blockchain system, to begin with, how it works and, and then often, you know, the question is, \"But where do I buy Bitcoin?\" And I'm like, \"No, I'm not going to tell you where to buy your Bitcoin. I'll just explain to you.\" how it works, but I'm not going to say go to Coinbase or Bynance or this or that, you know? And so often it's that kind of questions and, and, and worry about what if, the value goes down, and I always try to explain to them, yeah, but it will always go up. 'Cause it was worth this much, this many years ago, and now it's worth this much. But unless you think of it in a long term, don't look at it. I try to tell them not to look at it as, as, as long as you're not saving, it doesn't really matter to them if Bitcoin is up or down for the refugees. But I do give like a very, you know, it's a very secretive things, but I, I've given like to at least forty, fifty businessmen as well, because these are the only people that can live So for the refugees, it's a way of just accepting money via wallet. We use Glo wallet and Moon wallet. But for the businessmen, it has become something powerful, you know, they couldn't, they just couldn't believe that There is this option, and as I told you, our government has been holding them like choking them to death for many years. I mean, even the rich people aren't safe in that country. So now at least many of the businessmen have learned about, Bitcoin and they start keeping their money in Bitcoin outside and where the government doesn't have to. Keep their money. So for me, the businessmen are more interesting because these are the people that hold the power inside the Eritrea. For the refugees, it's just a life-saving tool that they can access within a second, and often the reason I teach to refugees is because no refugee have an ID. Often when they flee, they flee without nothing. Even if they're left with their ID or passport, they'll always be taken by the traffickers before you get to your destination, anyways. So for them, it's a life-saving matter. It's, it's having an ID. For them, having a wallet is like having an ID, because they need an ID to receive money from relatives abroad, because they live of remittances. so it's, it's a life-changing for them, just having, knowing this technology, how to receive and how to exchange it or how to keep it. So they have learned all the basics, and they're happy, I'm happy with it, but I'd say I'm more excited with the businessmen. Because I believe they're the ones that can topple the dictatorship." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:35", "start": 2554.98, "text": "Yeah, that's really fascinating. And so as you were saying, and this is the last stat I've seen on this, is that one point seven billion people around the world are unbanked, and in many cases, it's, it's because they don't have a KYC document or an address or etcetera that would allow them to get a normal bank account. But obviously with Bitcoin, you can install, say, Moon Wallet on your phone, and you can now create Lightning invoices or spend in Lightning invoices, and whether you countries, whether you are a refugee, whether you are a businessman who wants to save a little bit outside the system, or potentially even if you're a politician, right? Like it's kind of like everyone is gonna want to use Bitcoin, but we can obviously see a very strong use here from a human rights perspective as well." }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "43:21", "start": 2600.75, "text": "Yeah, it's, it's, it's great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:27", "start": 2607.3, "text": "I mean, it's, it's, a great tool, and my only regret is that I didn't get into it earlier, as many of us, do. So when it comes to, let's This man who's using Bitcoin for them, I guess it might be, are you seeing them in, in a case where maybe they are even paying suppliers with Bitcoin or is it more just like they're using it more like their own store of value?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "43:44", "start": 2623.9, "text": "Yeah, they, they are keeping their money in Bitcoin and also paying suppliers in, most of these businessmen are, you know, they come and back and forth to Dubai, so I had to come to Dubai so many times just to meet them in person and, and show them in person. So as I said, these are the only people that have money and, and these are the only people that are suffering because they can't even touch their money. So why should they keep it inside? Whatever they can, they try to put in a bank because they are forced to, if they-- if you don't put a little money in your bank, the government will start asking, \"How come you haven't deposited your money?\" But at least most of their money now they know that How to keep it and how to receive it, how to spend it or how to save it and how to buy things with it, they order a lot of stuff from China and elsewhere, I mean, because they do importing and export, they do mostly importing, so some of them are using Bitcoin if they find, I mean, if there is a way to the things that they are looking for. Everybody uses a Bitcoin payment system, but where they can, they do. So they're really happy, with this, and, and the reason I go in person and meet them is so that they can do the same thing to those that aren't allowed to flee from here, to, to leave Eritrea, because to have a passport from the age of five until you are fifty, you have to be discharged from a, a military. So nobody younger than fifty year old can, can have a passport to begin with, so many of the businessmen inside Eritrea, they can't even They depend on these people that import stuff, so the people that import stuff, these are the only ones privileged enough to, to go back and forth and, and so that's why my focus is on them. These are the people that can reach, on a daily basis and, and teach it to those that they trust and, and it works in the country in your trades like it, it's often mouth to mouth. the rumors go and everybody wanna learn, and their little Bitcoin book was already smuggled into the country by, everybody shared the PDF with everybody they know. So I believe slowly, more and more will hear about it and more and more will use it, even though, as I said, the internet penetration is like three percent, but still those that live, they will find a way to keep others' money, they always do, and, and, that's why my focus is on those that are able to, to go back and forth." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:01", "start": 2760.89, "text": "Interesting. And also from a privacy perspective, now privacy is a complicated topic because it's all about who are you trying to be private from as well. Now, it's also fair to say that Bitcoin isn't necessarily private by default, but depending on how you use it, you can be private with it, and it allows you to also receive money just outside of the standard fiat system. So from your perspective and from your, your discussions with the people you're speaking with, have they been able to be- Private with Bitcoin or is that not a concern for them or what's the situation there?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "46:37", "start": 2796.84, "text": "I mean, so far it's private. The government isn't even focusing there, as I said, like, as long as they control the internet, they will manage to control every, everything that you do within the country. But those that are able to leave, at least when they're outside of, Eritrea, they can access whatever it is that they want or they can send money, receive money, and, and do a lot of things with it. But when you are in the country, It's just there is no privacy because you have to go to internet café and, and when you are in the internet café, you, you, the computer is registered to your ID from what time until what time that you use that computer and where you work and ID number and all that. Too much questions. And if you have to buy like, a mobile data, it will be registered under your name, when you buy it as well. So there's no really privacy. And another thing that I've been working on is, you know, there's a way to, to give internet to To my people, I'll need one million dollars to do that, but there's a way where you can send internet via satellite dish. so anybody that have satellite dish can download free internet. so I've been working on this for many years and it's a dream that I, I really wanna do and, and somehow, hopefully one day I'll raise that money and, and give my people the internet that they deserve and then they can use Bitcoin or anything that they want just like us. So the only thing keeping my people from using Bitcoin is the internet penetration." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:01", "start": 2880.97, "text": "I see." }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "48:02", "start": 2881.62, "text": "so hopefully, we will solve that. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:04", "start": 2883.76, "text": "right. And yeah, that's really interesting. So I guess the typical privacy wallet tools that people talk about in the Bitcoin world, things like Samurai Wallet, Joint Market, Sparrow Wallet, some of these tools are probably not accessible to people inside Eritrea, but are obviously accessible to, the Diaspora, the people who are outside, and of course, are accessible or even just simple phone- Wallets like Moon Wallet, are accessible to people in the diaspora or, you know, researchers you're working with. You can, as an example, if you are running a crowdfunding operation where you're, say, receiving some Sats, and then you can pay to researchers who are on the ground helping you with your work. so is that essentially, is that part of how you're running the operation?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "48:47", "start": 2927.11, "text": "Yeah. Right now, that's what I'm doing, like, I just, I haven't received any, but HRF donated last year. For this project so that I would be able to do and, and so what I use the money for is just as an incentive to the refugees so that they can take the workshop seriously, like it could be four days, five days, as I said. So at the end of, when they are done with it, then I give them fifty dollars worth of satoshis. send to their blue or moon wallet, where then they decide. So this is-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:20", "start": 2959.5, "text": "Yeah, sure. Yeah, and are, are the workshops operated-- Are you, you're doing those in Africa or are they in Sweden or?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "49:26", "start": 2965.83, "text": "I'm doing it from Sweden, but now, starting next month, I'm moving to Africa, so- I'll be living in different countries in Africa and, and, and try to move around and, and, and do this in person, but I'm gonna do it to, to teach it to single mothers." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:42", "start": 2981.59, "text": "Okay. So," }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "49:42", "start": 2982.23, "text": "to those that have nothing, so I wanna focus next on, on trying to find some kind of solution, Bitcoin re-lo- related solution to these single African mothers that go through all kind of hardship. So I'm talking to so many people and taking all kind of advices from different people on how I should do it and which way you should do it. But also, I'm also, you know, I've looked into lands where I could mine and things as well. and, and, and spoken with Alex Gladstein about it. And, we will see where it goes, but, there is a plan. I'm thinking about it and, and, and hopefully after a few months, and, I'll come here and say, \"Oh, I've started mining" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:24", "start": 3023.63, "text": "Fascinating what you're doing, and, I think listeners will really appreciate hearing your story. So for anyone who wants to keep up with what you're doing or follow you or support you, what's the best place for them to do that?" }, { "speaker": "meron_estefanos", "time": "50:36", "start": 3036.14, "text": "I'm active on Twitter. I don't use social me-media that much, but Twitter, I'm very active on Twitter, so you can always find me on Twitter, Meronina." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:44", "start": 3043.81, "text": "Fantastic. So listeners, I'll put that in the show notes. And, Meron, thank you very much for joining me. I really" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:54", "start": 3053.63, "text": "Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }