{ "episodeId": "SLP394", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "beautyon": { "name": "Beautyon", "role": "guest", "tag": "BEAUTYON" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.49, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today we're talking about why Bitcoin isn't money. Now this show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, and Swan Bitcoin is organizing a conference. It's called Pacific Bitcoin. It's going to be on in November this year. It'll be in LA, California, and this will be the biggest Bitcoin only conference ever. I'm obviously going to be there. There'll be a cast of many well-known Bitcoiners and just people, great people to catch up with, and so there will be a whole week here with sports, games, music, photo opportunities, and high fives. This conference is the main event of LA Bitcoin Week, but there'll be other opportunities, meetups, coworking, and parties throughout the week. So come and join us at the inaugural Pacific Bitcoin Conference in LA on November 10th and 11th. Go and sign up at p a c bitcoin dot com. Voltage is paving the way as the leading enterprise- Price grade lightning solution for anyone building on layer two. Lightning is the future for Bitcoin payments and you can't overlook this. Voltage can help integrate lightning and payment infrastructure into your solution quickly and hassle free. Now this might be applicable for you whether you are just a merchant looking to take payment with Bitcoin or you're building some kind of Bitcoin startup. So don't waste time with maintenance and integration, deploy and iterate faster. Whether you want to route payments, build a small business or scale, Voltage can help you out. So go and get started over at voltage dot cloud. It comes time to secure our Bitcoin, a great tool is hardware signing devices, and my favorite is the Coldcard available over at coinkite dot com. The Coldcard is a very versatile device, you can use it in all kinds of different configurations, whether that is single signature, multi-signature, passphrases, brickme pin, Jura S PIN, seed X or bip eighty five, the list of features is incredible. So go to the website coinkite dot com, you can order your Coldcard there, and don't forget, coinkite also sells Sell the metal seed backup products, so this is where you can back up your twelve or twenty-four words to make sure that you don't lose your coins in the event of an accident. That website is coinkite dot com and use the code Livera for a discount. So Beautyon of Azteco rejoins me on the show today, and we're talking about why Bitcoin isn't money, and we're talking about the recent EU attack on Bitcoin with misleading terminology and the Ways people are getting it wrong by confusing the map for the terrain, as well as what Bitcoiners and Bitcoin builders can do about it. So, without any further ado, onto the episode with Akeen, aka Beautyon. Akeen, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "02:39", "start": 159.14, "text": "Thanks for having me, Stephan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:41", "start": 160.84, "text": "So, Akin, you wrote a great article recently, and I thought it was a good time to get you back on and chat and hear a bit of your views on where Bitcoin is at today, as well as what's happening with the EU and the Bitcoin regulations around the world. So, do you wanna just set the scene? What's happening in the EU with Bitcoin regulations?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "02:57", "start": 177.47, "text": "Well, a group of well-meaning and very young and naive people Have taken it upon themselves to try and redefine reality as far as it touches Bitcoin. They've tried to cast Bitcoin as a form of money And also wallets into two categories, hosted and unhosted. The reason why they're doing this is because they don't want anyone inside the EU to be free to use Bitcoin without their permission. And so this small group of people essentially destroying the entire European economy as far as Bitcoin is concerned in a vain attempt to try and hold back the flood of Bitcoin. It doesn't make any sense. It's irrational, illogical, and the polar opposite of what they should actually be doing, which is embracing Bitcoin on its own terms, on Bitcoin's terms, so that the European Union can be part of the global network that's very, very quickly emerging." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:06", "start": 245.69, "text": "Great. And so from their point of view, what kind of regulations, what kind of rules are they imposing as part of this push?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "04:16", "start": 255.96, "text": "They're trying to impose the same rules that apply to money transmitter services and money services onto Bitcoin. And of course, Bitcoin isn't money, it's just a database. And the tools that you use to transact in Bitcoin, of course, transact is probably the wrong word, to send messages on the Bitcoin network are not financial tools either. They're not wallets or, anything like a banking app on your phone. And because these Bitcoin wallets look very much like banking apps, which is the, the subject of the essay that I wrote, all of these EU, Apparatchiks or these, civil servants have conflated Bitcoin with money in their minds, and they've used that as the basis of new legislation. And so in the EU, they're going to try and ban what they call unhosted wallets, which means any tool that's on a mobile phone or on a desktop where you have control over The private keys that are used to sign messages sent to the Bitcoin network. They're going to make that illegal inside the EU. And what they don't seem to understand is that most Of the internet services that you use today, whether it be WhatsApp, Signal, or even a browser, all use the same techniques To protect the user from being eavesdropped upon, it's called public key cryptography. That means you have private key on your machine that only you have access to that encrypts your text or your phone call or your photos Before they're sent out and received by somebody else. Now actually, I've got that actually backwards. It's the public key of the recipient That you have on your, on your WhatsApp, and you use that public key of the recipient to encrypt messages to them, and they use their private key to decrypt those messages, so that only the recipient can unscramble the encrypted message and read it. Now, that's the, the fundamental basis of two things. First of all, the privacy revolution, which has swept across the whole world, is now irrevocable, and Bitcoin, those same techniques When applied to a database that everyone shares, can be used to simulate money, and that's what Bitcoin is. Bitcoin is a very good simulation of money, and this, Fundamental and deep understanding is completely missed by the EU people who have written this law. They've taken the analogies that people use to contextualize services in Bitcoin and made the mistake of thinking that's what these things actually are, when in fact they're not. And so what's going to happen is they're going to be sidelined, they being the, the EU, they're going to be totally sidelined in this, Fundamental change in the way things are done internationally, and they're going to be a group of laggard states who will grudgingly come along to Bitcoin after the Silicon Valley of, Bitcoin. is founded and is thriving, just as, with the internet, the real Silicon Valley has led the world into this new era. I'm not sure where this Bitcoin Silicon Valley is going to be, but it's not going to be inside the EU because no CEO with one brain cell is going to incorporate in a jurisdiction where it's not possible to write software to serve users correctly and most efficiently. They're going to go to other jurisdictions, and of course, in software, you don't have to actually be anywhere in particular to do it You can be anywhere and have your servers hosted in a safe jurisdiction serving the entire world. This is already being done. Now, of course, the exception to this is the Bitcoin mining, where a physical, presence is required because the machines have to be in one place churning away and whizzing away at, at the, the calculations. So they have my sympathy, but for, the entrepreneurs that are writing software that uses the network, they can be anywhere, and they will choose to not be in the EU because the EU is now run by a bunch of, lardite Ignorant, anti-human people who are desperate to keep the status quo in place. Now, of course, they're free to do that But everybody else is free not to deal with them, not to be in their jurisdiction, and to serve the EU people as if they were in the EU. And that's exactly what's going to happen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:23", "start": 563.31, "text": "As you mentioned, there are analogies that people use to convey and explain things about Bitcoin, but as you, you made the point, it's, it's-- there's a famous saying as well, the map is not the terrain, right? And it's pr-perhaps a similar idea here that even though Bitcoin wallets or the software is called Bitcoin wallets and- has coins, it maybe that's not the, the right analogy for really what's going on. Really it's more like message signing and message passing forward and backward between each other. And so I'm curious in your view, why are these EU legislators going down this pathway? Is it purely down to miseducation or do you believe there's actually some form of malice or attempt to preserve their power?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "10:08", "start": 608.12, "text": "It's a mixture of ignorance and malice, and you're absolutely right about the analogies and the map not being the terrain. There is no problem, or there would be no problem, if there wasn't a state to get in the way of everybody in using analogies to contextualize how a piece of software works. There's nothing wrong with calling a Bitcoin wallet a wallet or Bitcoin money or anything you see inside of a Bitcoin wallet. arranged the way that it is. The problem is when a, a legislator takes that as the reality and then builds a case for new laws based on an analogy that, that's a big mistake. And as for these EU people, there is, to, to, to answer the second part of your question, there is malice involved because these people are socialists, they're anti-capitalists, and they don't want anything to come in and disturb the way that things work that they already understand. They think every new idea is a threat and Seeing Bitcoin as a very big threat, which in some ways it is, it's a threat to the status quo, it's a, it's a threat to the banking rails, it's a, a threat to the surveillance system that they very carefully put in place to monitor everybody. so in a way that they're, they're actually correct to take the stance they're, they're taking because, Bitcoin does threaten the way that they, run everything, and this is, Separate from the threat that Bitcoin presents, represents in the wholesale replacement of fiat money, the euro is how the European Union controls not only, people, but everything to do with statecraft. If the euro is replaced by Bitcoin, one of their most powerful levers is removed entirely. And they are not going to sit still and just allow that to happen. Similarly, the, the sanctions regime that these Western democracies have in place are totally destroyed By Bitcoin becoming the world's global international, money, because anybody can send, Bitcoin to anywhere and nobody needs to know about it if you're careful and do it correctly. So this is a sea change in how things are done, and so of course people are going to be frightened by it. Even though in the end, the benefits to everybody in the EU, everybody all over the world are going to be un-imaginably great. The world's going to be a fantastically improved place with the discipline of Bitcoin in in control of how economics is ordered. And so before we can get there, there are gonna be people who are against change. And this, this calls to mind the, the scene from, that Arnold Schwarzenegger movie with the Turbina machine, where they didn't wanna turn it on because they thought it would melt down Mars, but in fact, it would turn Mars into, into a, a planet with an atmosphere. It's exactly the same thing. Bitcoin is the Turbina machine that unfortunately for them, has already been turned on and the whole earth is going to be transformed by it, and there's nothing they can do to stop it. Many of these legislative moves are, seemingly done in a panic mode. They know that Bitcoin is now unstoppable, and so what they're trying to do is contain it and corral it a little bit, so they can get a handle on what this actually means, but it's too late. It's in everybody's hands, it has the potential of being in everybody's hands, and there's no way to stop people from sending messages to each other. And at the end of the day, they might analogize Bitcoin as being money or some other, Convenient way of, of trying to, contextualize it, but the reality is Bitcoin is a messaging system, and messaging systems are notoriously difficult to stop. I'm sure you've seen the experiments where people are sending Bitcoin messages by, via shortwave. There's an infinite number of ways that Bitcoin can be transacted because it is text. It isn't money, it is text. And if once you accept that, then you'll begin to understand how difficult it's going to be for the state to stop Bitcoin. They completely failed in stopping software piracy And the movie piracy, and they're going to fail in their attempts to stop Bitcoin also. Once the tipping point is reached and, A large number of people who have money are using Bitcoin regularly, then it will be absolutely out of control. Pandora's box is open and the, the monster Bitcoin is flying out and you can't close that box down again. It can't be stopped." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:15", "start": 915.25, "text": "And as you were saying around incorrect language or terms used around Bitcoin or perhaps the understanding around Bitcoin, are there updated ways of calling these things? So as an example, what should we be calling Bitcoin wallets instead?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "15:32", "start": 931.62, "text": "Well, the way to answer this question, first of all, before we try and answer it, it's important to understand that the people who write these tools have an absolute right To call what happens in them by any name that they want, it's totally up to them. There is no community consensus that, Bitcoin developers or software developers are compelled to obey. They can do whatever they want, that's the first thing. Now, as for, what terminology they should use, it depends on what the, the motivating, circumstances that's going to make them change the language. If the EU is hell bent on trying to regulate wallets, every single wallet developer will go to a lawyer, and then that lawyer will advise them How to recontextualize what they're saying in their, in their wallets. And so that's going to be the guiding, force that's going to change these wallets and how they present information to the user so that they can stay out of trouble with the EU. And in fact, they might have an EU version of, say, Blue Wallet that has only non-financial, nomenclature in it, and, a wall-- a Blue Wallet for the normal people in the free world that has All of the ordinary, nomenclature and analogies that we all know and love. So that's, I, that I think is what's gonna happen. They're going to-- they're not gonna just wing it. And, come up with a whole bunch of new terms by themselves. They're going to make absolutely sure that these anti-human EU apparatchiks aren't going to be able to point the finger at them and say, \"You are running a financial service.\" And the argument's going to have to be very carefully made, the language selected very, very carefully so that they stay out of trouble. And of course, this has nothing to do with the way that these Bitcoin wallets work Or the numbers that are shown to the user or anything else. All it does is go-- it's going to confuse users tremendously because they'll have, a wallet on their phone It'll be updated, and then all of a sudden, all of the terminology will, will, will be different. And so I can imagine some of them will panic to think that, something has happened to their Bitcoin, and of course, that won't be the case. It will be exactly the same and the- The utility will be the same, only the language will have changed, and I think this absolutely has to happen because these, these EU people aren't going to back down. They're going to continue to insist that Bitcoin is money and that Bitcoin wallet providers are doing a financial, It's an act that's covered by financial services, regulations, which of course isn't the case, and, they're not gonna quit. They're not gonna quit until they're made to quit And Bitcoin thankfully is powerful enough to make them quit." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:28", "start": 1108.27, "text": "Now, at this point, I could imagine a skeptic might be thinking, \"Well, hang on, I've heard...\" To make an analogy, in the case of, say, tax cases and tax law, there's this idea of the tax office or the IRS or whatever the tax agency is in the country, they might look at the substance over form. So as an example, if that, in that case where they're trying to go after somebody to try to say, \"Yes, you owe a tax on this,\" etc. Basically, could the EU politicians, legislators, could they try to make this similar argument about substance over form and say, \"Look, just because these Bitcoin wallet developers are renaming their application into a viewer or a signer, we are saying actually substance over form, it's still money, therefore still financial services, therefore still regulated.\" What's your view on that kind of argument and the possibility of that happening?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "19:22", "start": 1161.97, "text": "That's a very, very- Interesting, question, and the way you've put it is to say it's substance over form. So when these Bitcoin wallets- Put a fiat number against the balance or even show it as a balance, that is the form. The substance is the Bitcoin network, the substance is the UTXOs, the substance is what's happening under the hood, not what's being represented to the user. So if we're going to, if these people are going to say, the substance is what matters and not the form, then the argument is, well, the substance is this, the substance that it's a database. We don't con- Control a database, our wallets don't actually receive anything. It's all, entries on a ledger that this application is a window to. And so when we go to the form, their logic, the logic of the state breaks down entirely. So they're caught between a rock and a hard place. They can't have it both ways. They can't say that they're going for the, the facts about what Bitcoin is and then also say that the facts Say that Bitcoin is money. They can't do that. And so, this is going to go to court. I predicted for many years this is going to go to court. And, The court that matters globally, because everybody follows the United States, is the Supreme Court of the United States, and it will be proved absolutely, you can bet money on it, you can even bet Bitcoin on it, that The Supreme Court will find that Bitcoin isn't money, it's speech. Once that happens, other nations in the world will follow and fall in line with that, and then the floodgates will be broken open for Bitcoin globally because all the regulations That are currently, stifling Bitcoin adoption will be thrown out, and then everybody can write the software tools that they want, release those software tools, and not have to deal with the onerous Irrational, illogical nonsense that's being used, to stop people writing software. So the, the-- Of course, now there's the, the other way that, that people argue against this, is they say that, \"Well, the government is omniscient, the government's omnipotent. They can do whatever they want. They don't have to follow the rules. They don't have to be logical.\" Well If you live in a country that has a government like that, you have my sympathy, and you shouldn't be living there. If the United States is a, a nation of laws and not men, which is what it says on the box Then they can't regulate Bitcoin. They can't say that Bitcoin is money, but it's also not money, but it's money just because we say so. The United States doesn't work like that on the box. And so this is why the Supreme Court is, very, very important, as you've seen recently. they're willing to do things that were previously unthinkable, like overturning Roe versus Wade. So if any Supreme Court, In the twentieth century or twenty-first century, is going to side with the reality that Bitcoin isn't money, it's just a database, it's text, it's speech, and the First Amendment totally covers it. It's this Supreme Court. This Supreme Court is more likely to do it than any other. So I think it's, very important to bring this to the Supreme Court as, as quickly as possible, because as you know, you know, they're not a bunch of young men. And, they can be replaced with bad people. So we've already seen a very big Bitcoin company go to court when they weren't allowed to launch one of their financial instruments onto the market. they didn't even wait, they just had the, the whole, case ready in case the application was rejected. And I think this has to happen with ordinary Bitcoin transactions and wallet services. We've got to go to court and force the state to behave. We've got to force these people to accept reality. Can't rely on them to behave rationally or in the interest of the public because clearly they're not acting in the interest of the public because they're anti Bitcoin. There is nothing negative about Bitcoin, there's nothing bad about it Bitcoin, Bitcoin is a positive and good thing for the entire population of this planet, and anybody who is against that is against humanity. And of course, there are people who are against humanity, they have to be stopped. They'll be stopped in the court. When the law is behind Bitcoin at a fundamental level, like the American Constitution, then it won't be possible to stop Bitcoin anymore. All the people who hate it, who rail against it Who want nothing to change ever will be silenced, and then it's up to us to write the programs, construct the services, and do all the capitalistic things that need to happen to make sure every single person on Earth has access to the power to receive and send Bitcoin in a simple, unintrusive way where their rights and privacy aren't violated by default." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:46", "start": 1485.9, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. The events at exchanges and lending platforms over the last few weeks have been an important reminder for us all about how important it is to take control of our Bitcoin keys. So don't leave your coins with somebody else, don't risk having your withdrawals blocked when you need Bitcoin the most, or having your Bitcoin caught up in someone else's insolvency. There were people who had their coins caught on these exchanges for years in legal battles. Unchained Capital can help you with this. They have concierge onboarding, so if you're a little bit scared- And you're a bit worried about screwing it up, well, this is the service for you. They will ship you the hardware, they'll walk you through the setup over a video call, they will help you withdraw and cover your questions. There's even some ongoing support afterwards. So Unchained is the way to get started, take your coins off the exchange or upgrade to multi-signature. So don't wait, don't delay, go to unchained dot com slash concierge, use the code Livera for a discount. Those of you doing Bitcoin mining, consider Brains OS Plus. This We're at Brains and you can use this firmware on your Bitcoin mining machine, so check on the website whether your Bitcoin mining machine is supported. But if it is, it's a great tool because you can improve your efficiency by up to twenty percent, and so you're just leaving Sats on the table if you're not thinking about this. Now, you can also point your hash rate towards Slush Pool and receive zero percent pool fee if you are using Brains OS Plus. Now, there is a dev fee, but it's well worth it given the efficiency gains and the Configuration that you can do when you're using Brainz OS Plus. So that website is brains dot com, it's spelled b r a i i n s dot com. Now back to the show. And I'm also thinking now of examples where governments can be quite possessive over their citizens. And so as an example, there was the example of BitMEX. Now they were set up in Hong Kong, they didn't even have fiat on or off ramps, and yet The US government still went after them for serving US customers. I'm curious, in your view, could the EU Parliament or EU politicians try to take a similar approach and say, \"Well, even if you are based outside of the EU, the fact that you are serving customers inside the EU, that's what drags you inside our net or our jurisdiction per se.\" I'm curious if you see any risk on that side." }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "27:15", "start": 1634.9, "text": "It depends what country your company is based in. If you have a company that's based in the United States, no court in America will humor an EU attack on an American citizen or an American, company. That That's absolutely guaranteed. So what this means is that if all the Bitcoin companies on Earth are all incorporated in Delaware or wherever people like to incorporate in the United States now, the EU will be one hundred percent powerless to- To stop them, one hundred percent. The only way that they could, do anything about it is to go after individual citizens who are using Bitcoin wallets, outside of their regulations. And that would mean going after literally millions of people. We've already seen this with software piracy, which after over a quarter of a century, the state has totally failed to stop. The same thing will be true with Bitcoin. Once an American company decides to do something, they're at liberty to serve people anywhere on earth in any way they like. You'll see that many American websites don't have this EU cookie directive shield that comes down when you go onto their website because they know EU regulations don't fly in America. They don't roll like that to use their language. So the same thing will be true about Bitcoin. Once there's a court case that's been won by the Bitcoiners and The Supreme Court has said that Bitcoin is text. No American court will humor anything coming from the EU. So, you know, when you provoke Americans like this, I'm sure you've been, you, you're aware of, the source of that. Feelings it evokes, they start talking about, surrender monkeys and all this sort of stuff. Just try it, just try and come to America and stop Americans from doing things. You'll find out that they don't tolerate interference, in their legal system or with their citizens by foreigners, they don't tolerate it. So this is an opportunity for the United States to, replace the fiat system with the US dollar being the default global currency, the reserve currency of, of the whole world, with this new system where all of the money of the world passes This is through the United States, through the Bitcoin businesses that are serving people globally through wallets and all sorts of other services, the likes of which are really impossible to imagine now That's what America should be going for. It should be striving to be the number one country on earth for Bitcoin, and all it has to do to achieve this is follow the law, follow the Constitution, understand what Bitcoin is. It isn't money. There's no such thing as sensible regulations on speech No real American talks like that, and once you understand that Bitcoin actually is speech, and the First Amendment applies to it, then you'll know it's impossible to bring any laws to the table to try and regulate speech. It's not gonna happen. So this is why it's very important to tell the absolute truth about Bitcoin when we're talking about these matters of law. Now, in the context of services, you can call Bitcoin whatever you want, and in this piece that I wrote, I made the, example of Oil traders using Bitcoin and denominated barrels of oil in Bitcoin and an app that shows you that, an oil trading app would say that you have a hundred barrels of oil for point zero zero zero one Bitcoin, when in fact it's the same Bitcoin that everybody's using for everything else. Bitcoin is a database. You can use those numbers to represent anything you want, it's up to you. So any law that somebody thinks is required to control Bitcoin shows they don't understand what Bitcoin is, they don't understand what math is, they're computer illiterates. And they're gonna make a mistake by default. So I don't think that the EU is going to be able to control any American when it comes to the provision of services on Bitcoin. Now, of course, you're gonna get some CEOs who, like going on a holiday in France, and the, you know, they don't wanna, be arrested when they get to Charles de Gaulle, and so they'll block EU citizens from using their tools, but that's up to them. They don't actually have to do this. It's a choice, and Americans, being free people, have that choice. This is the, the most important thing, and a- actually, America is the, the best country on earth to be the number one country in Bitcoin because it has a constitution, because it's a, a nation of laws and not men. And so, I know I'm waving the American flag now, sorry, but, it's just a fact, America is number one, and if it embraces Bitcoin The whole dollar era, the whole n-- post nineteen seventy-one Bretton Woods, it will all be forgotten and Bitcoin will have the great, America will have The greatest next hundred years of maybe any nation in the history of the world." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:36", "start": 1956.09, "text": "So then, is it all over for EU companies, let's say Bitcoin serving companies in the EU? Is it all over for them, and should they now be packing up and trying to set up outside of the EU, or do you believe there's still some role for advocacy, some role for education of EU legislators?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "32:55", "start": 1974.98, "text": "EU, EU legislators have made their bed, and now they have to lie in it. These companies that are doing software in the EU should leave the EU. there's no-- I mean, you, you, you have to understand how much time, effort, and money it takes to run a, a software company. It's, you know, it's, it's debilitating. It's very, very, very difficult. Why should these people, just because they happen to live in the EU, make extra- Effort to do what other people are doing without having to do the e-effort. This puts EU companies at a extreme disadvantage because they have to think about two things at once, following all these ridiculous arcane laws whilst their American counterparts and their counterparts in all these other free countries don't have to think about that, they have more time to write the software, more time to develop their business models, more money to put into advertising and all those other sorts of things that help a business thrive, whereas the, their EU co-counterparts are spending money on lawyers checking o-over the regulations AML D5 and all the other things that they have to do, which are completely ridiculous. So why would you not just give that up wholesale and move to United States? All you have to do is do the paperwork, and then it's over. So there's nothing stopping people living in the EU from writing software for a Bitcoin company. So in theory and in practice, you can live in the EU and have your, charcuterie and everything else they have there, which is quite nice, and all of the business is being done abroad. So why wouldn't you not do that? At some point, people have to wake up and understand that, the state is an implacable enemy. They don't have your best interests at heart They're a bunch of socialists and communists and collectivists, and they absolutely hate Bitcoin. If you don't wake up and understand that, you're gonna spend the rest of your life Fighting a losing battle where people in other jurisdictions will be fighting a battle to be number one in Bitcoin, which is the battle that really needs to be fought by entrepreneurs. So my advice to anybody in the EU is to leave. And of course, once again, it doesn't mean physically leave. You can stay there and enjoy the ski slopes and everything else. Move your incorporation away from the, the danger zone, the radiation zone. That is the EU. Move to a free country where you're free to develop your software, release it, and serve people according to the market. That's my advice to you, given freely." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:42", "start": 2141.95, "text": "What about the question of mass adoption? If Bitcoin were to be more adopted inside the EU, would that help?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "35:51", "start": 2151.36, "text": "I think it would help, actually. It would, it would help a lot if everybody in the EU who has a mobile phone has a wallet, a Satoshi or a Samurai wallet or Moon wallet Or Phoenix or one of these other very great, wallets like Breeze, for example. If everybody in the EU had one of these wallets, then the situation would be extremely different No legislature, no apparatchik knowing that everybody in the EU has a Bitcoin wallet would put their head above the parapet To call all of these people criminals, to call all of them tax avoiders, this is exactly the same as a, a, a WhatsApp or Signal or any of these other tools which are end-to-end encrypted. Nobody's coming up and saying that all these people should have their messages revealed. The more people who are using Bitcoin, the better. It makes everybody safe, and the baseline that people should accept and people should go for is a wallet of the type that I've just mentioned, including of course, the absolutely wonderful Samurai wallet, where you control Your keys. You're not giving responsibility for the keys over to a company who can cut you off, just like a bank can cut you off. That's not Bitcoin, that's something else. Now, I'm not saying that those people shouldn't exist, which of course they shouldn't, but it's-- it would be better for the whole world if everybody was on a Bitcoin wallet where you control the keys and have absolute control over your money. Nobody can cut you off, nobody can- Give the excuse that they received a letter from X, Y, Z saying that your account should be suspended. In Bitcoin, there are no accounts. You don't have to give your email address, your name, or anything else. You only do that because you want to do that And of course, I suggest that you don't do that, but in Bitcoin, you don't have to do that, and you have the same access to the network as everybody else has. You're a peer on the network, so it's very important to understand how these things work What it means to be in control of your own keys, which means in Bitcoin, your own money, and why this should be the default for everybody. So in a, in my dream scenario Everyone in the EU has a Bitcoin wallet of some kind. They're transacting with Bitcoin in a firestorm of transactions that happen every day that's, that's unstoppable. And, they're finding a way to get Bitcoin. So this isn't something that's impossible, it's not something that, is a fever dream or a fantasy, it actually can happen because the same shape of tool, which is the wallet application, can spread to every EU user just like Signal and WhatsApp and everything else in Telegram, for heaven's sake. So it is actually possible to do. And this is why it's been so disappointing that, the- Applications that are already widely distributed all over the earth chose not to settle on Bitcoin as the, synthetic money that is available inside their app but once again, understanding Bitcoin is a very, very difficult thing, and there are no precedents for it, so there's no, It's not like going to learn C, for example. it's easy to make a mistake in how it should be formulated, and this is why you have some of these very, very big companies, that have- Managed to make a success in the short term of themselves, but don't give access to the private keys to the user because they see the, they see the outside, they see only the shiny surface With the letter B in yellow, and think that that's Bitcoin. No, that's not Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a very specific thing. Key to it is the control of your own keys, and without that, it really, actually isn't Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:10", "start": 2409.9, "text": "So focusing then on the consumer level software and hardware that is available in Bitcoin today, do you see any issues with the way those things are being built out? What, what kind of issues do you see that people could improve on?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "40:25", "start": 2425.04, "text": "Well, that's an interesting question. It depends on what the definition of the word consumer is. If we look at something like the, the iPhone That's a consumer, that's a consumer fund, that's a consumer tool. And so if we're going to talk about any of these tools being a consumer tool, that's the standard, because we know that Apple has made it easy for billions of people to use, very complicated, tools like email. Email m-might seem like it's not complicated, but actually under the hood, it's hideously complicated. Anybody who's tried to run a POP3 or SMTP server knows that Email is an absolute nightmare, and yet on an iPhone, you can use email as easy as falling off a log. This has to happen with Bitcoin. Now, the, the current crop of services are trying very hard to move in that direction to make their services, easier, but it's not, it's not, something that's trivial. It's very, very difficult to do, and you need a team of people who are normal people to help you to guide the design process. Without that, you're never gonna be able to do it. So Let's look at a very good example of a consumer grade wallet, and that's the Pine wallet. And this wallet is, in its interface that, that is shown to the c-consumer as Apple like an interface as you're going to find. It's totally beautiful. Developer of it is a man called Timothy Enquist, I believe, and he has totally nailed the user interface for this Bitcoin wallet It's intuitive, it's beautiful, super easy to use. It uses the gestures of the, iOS software to the absolute maximum. It's utterly brilliant, and on top of that Allows the user to control their keys. So when it comes to consumer Bitcoin, consumer wallets, Pine Wallet is a good example of the way that things should go. If everything goes into that direction, the adoption of Bitcoin by ordinary people is going to greatly accelerate. Now, other wallets who haven't had this design sensibility, at their disposal It doesn't infer in any way that they're, not good or inferior. All I'm saying, all I'm telling you is that as, as a, a person who runs, A, a Bitcoin company and have to deal with tech support, you would be horrified at how people fail to understand how, how these tools work, even though to you and me, Stephan, that, you know, it seems very, very simple. But to them it's frightening, it's hard to understand, and so there's a lot of work to be done and a lot of, ground to be gained in making the user experiences of these tools as smooth as butter, as good as Apple. It can be done, and I think it has to be done, because expecting ordinary people to learn, how Bitcoin works and to learn these interfaces which to you, me are very, very simple, but to the ordinary people are complicated, this is not rational We have to come to them, we being the, the people who run Bitcoin companies. Our businesses have to come to them. We have to bring Bitcoin to them on their terms and not expect them to use Bitcoin on our terms. If we're not willing to do that, then you might as well give up on trying to be a consumer, Bitcoin service. And once again, by consumer, I don't mean just somebody who has money to buy something. I mean the Apple user, the Android user, the ordinary person, and in fact, even the people who are illiterate. Those people will need to have access to Bitcoin also. They have access to WhatsApp, they can make phone calls, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to use Bitcoin in a way that's intuitive, that doesn't require any training. That's the key. That's the key to spreading this all over the world. And of course, the people who are, or are literate in the, in the West, they will take to it like, they'll cut through it like a, a, a hot knife through butter because it'll be so simple, so intuitive. And so I encourage everybody to take a look at Fine for a glimpse into the future. It is extraordinarily beautiful and gratifying, and if you're thinking about the future, it will Be a source of reassurance that, that, you know, somebody is actually thinking about this, somebody's doing something about it, and they're knocking it out of the park." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:28", "start": 2728.38, "text": "So, Akin, let's chat a little bit about AztecO. So, do you wanna give us a little bit of an overview, where is the company at? Well, firstly, for listeners who aren't aware, what is AztecO, and, can you, just tell us a little bit about the company?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "45:41", "start": 2740.77, "text": "Well, AztecO is a consumer Bitcoin company. We're one Extremely easy to get Bitcoin in a way that millions upon millions of people already understand. What we've done is we've, we've reduced the complexity of, Bitcoin delivery into the form factor of a sheet of paper That comes out of an ordinary point of sale device, and what you do is you pay over cash or pay in whatever way that the merchant, requires. He prints out an ETCO voucher for the amount that you want, you scan it with one of the LNURL wallets that we've integrated with, and then you get the lightning sent to you instantaneously. It's as simple as that, there isn't nothing else. And so when people encounter ETCO, they always ask this same question question, and this happened over and over and over again, such like a trope inside this company. Why isn't everything as simple as this? Well, because people decided not to think about Bitcoin, to call it money, to think they have to be regulated, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So if we think about Bitcoin as we did, by its nature, then it's possible for us to create a business model Where we treat Bitcoin by its nature using only the required steps to deliver it, and that means a slip of paper coming out of a point of sale device. Now, of course, some of our merchants, don't like to waste paper, they don't like buying it, they don't like printing it. Our system can show a QR code on a phone, and then the person buying the, the Bitcoin voucher can just scan the, the merchant's phone, and then the same process happens. So it's paperless It's papered, it's super, super flexible, and of course, we have an API which has allowed us to integrate with many, many, many businesses all over the world where our vouchers are being spewed out of the point of sale devices and making a lot of people very happy and breaking the hypnotic spell. Over, the population about what Bitcoin is, what it can be, and how easy it can be to get it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:57", "start": 2876.86, "text": "And what countries is Azteco live in or where you have, let's say merchants or partners working that you're working with?" }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "48:04", "start": 2884.23, "text": "Well, if you go to the, Azteca website, which is a z t e dot c o, and look at our map, there are dots all over the place. One of the countries where there are no dots, but where there, very soon there's gonna be a lot of dots, is the South American continent. So, there's gonna be an announcement about that coming up very shortly. But we have two hundred thousand outlets in South Africa. Now, these outlets are in places called spasas, where, they're-- they don't have a street address. It's kind of a shack thing, and they don't have a street address, so they can't be put on a map. But down there, we're available through three million bank apps, Tinebank for one, and you can buy an AsTec voucher directly in one of these banking apps. So we're serving the complete gamut of the South African society, from the poorest to the people who are fully banked and integrated into the financial real system, and of course if you've had any experience of sending money outside of South Africa or using a, a South African credit card, you'll know that, there are rules in place to stop you from being able to spend abroad. Bitcoin makes all that go away. Nobody can tell you where or when you can send or receive money, and of course, it's super simple to receive money. You just have to be-- you don't have to be awake or, or go anywhere. You just, it just arrives on your phone like magic. So this is a, a, a very big sea change in how South Africans are able to use their money. and of course, we're giving the, the, the tools to people to be able to receive money in a way that they haven't, ever had before. This is a extremely wonderful thing. There are sixty million unbanked people in Mexico, for example. All of those people can be put onto Bitcoin and they can be part of the international community, they can part, part, become part of the financial rails at a cost of essentially nothing, and also they get the- ethical part of it as well, in that they're, able to transact without permission or the cons- or the, the leave of a third party. This is a very, very important thing. So, as Tecca was absolutely everywhere, our map shows it, thousands and thousands and thousands of dots. We are available in every single Canada Post, outlet, and those are about to be turned back on because the service was suspended for some spirit reason, but they're gonna be turned back on. But there's six thousand of them in Canada where you can just roll in Hand over cash and get a Bitcoin voucher. So we're doing our very best, and believe me, it's not easy, we're doing our very best to make Esteco available all over the world where such things are permitted, and we're going to do it It's going to be beneficial to everyone. I think that Bitcoin is one of the most important, innovations and services, and, and I think to build a service on in the, in the history of the whole world. It's going to change the way people think about money, it's gonna change the way people think about, spending, putting an end to the consumer society and helping the environment and doing all sorts of things like that. I think this is a, a wonderful time to be alive and a great project to be involved in, and this is why I get very agitated and, energized when people use the wrong labels. To describe what Bitcoin is. Now, in Aspeco, we've come across our own version of this problem where people say that a slip of paper that comes out of one of our point of sale devices is Bitcoin itself. Now, obviously, that's ridiculous. A slip of paper isn't Bitcoin. A slip of paper is a slip of paper. And so, you can't have two parallel sys-systems, legal systems operating at the same time where Amazon, iTunes, Netflix, and all These other people can have their vouchers being sold, and those, for example, Netflix, a Netflix voucher isn't a television program. Essentially, that's what they're saying with Bitcoin, because you have the word Bitcoin on a slip of paper Some people who are gravely mistaken believe that that slip, slip of paper is actually Bitcoin, and I know some of your listeners who are highly educated in Bitcoin are shaking their heads in disbelief. Believe me, my friends, this is, this is verbatim true story. So we have to fight against the ignorance that's widespread in society and that's reached right into the, the halls of the legislatures, and it's why I get so agitated when people talk about sensible regulations and all this other stuff without taking into account what Bitcoin actually is. And I'm afraid that once again, we're going to have to go to court to force these people to stay in their lane. You need to stay in your lane, stay away from the activities of free people. And let us get on with serving people with a product that we know works, with a service that we know is next to infallible, and that's going to change the world for the better. If you try and get in the way of Bitcoin, it's-- you're not going to be able to stop it. History says so. We know that's the case. All you're doing is delaying the inevitable and allowing another country, an enemy country. To become the preeminent Bitcoin nation on Earth. And with the, repolarization of the world, denying Bitcoin and stopping Bitcoin entrepreneurs is a very dangerous game Because Bitcoin companies can move to any jurisdiction at any time, they'll start paying the taxes in those jurisdictions, the Bitcoin transactions will be flowing through those jurisdictions and not yours, and that's the inevitable outcome if you try and be Clever when you're not clever. Stay away from legislating Bitcoin. This isn't a threat, I'm just saying that that's what's going to happen. And companies these days are very nimble, very agile, and they're able to move from jurisdiction to jurisdiction at the drop of a hat. So it's very important to- Think hard about what you're doing. Think hard about the oath that you swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. Think about that. Don't be an oath breaker. Don't be an anti-American anti-innovation character that's trying to push innovation into foreign countries. Think, think very hard. Tomorrow is coming Bitcoin entrepreneurs can go wherever they want, and people who aren't Americans who are Bitcoin entrepreneurs will innovate and Suck all the money of the world into their jurisdiction, which quite rightfully belongs to the United States and its people, being one of the best countries on earth You're not going to get multiple chances to get this right. You've gotta get it right the first time, and luckily for you, you don't even have to think about it. The Constitution has been put there to remove the need for you to be creative about legislation. So you need to heed those warnings, pay attention to your oath, follow the constitution, and the rest will just happen like magic." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:53", "start": 3353.45, "text": "Fantastic. Well, I think that's a great spot to finish up there. So, listeners, make sure you go and follow Beautyon. You can find him on Twitter. His handle is at Beautyon underscore, and, as you mentioned, Akin, it's, a z t e dot c o. Akin, great to chat with you today, and, thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "beautyon", "time": "56:12", "start": 3371.64, "text": "Thank you for having me, Stefan" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:14", "start": 3374.06, "text": "If you're looking for the links to find Beautyon's Bitcoin Magazine article or some other relevant interviews like my recent one with Gigi, find all of those over on my website stephanlivera dot com slash three nine four for this episode. Make sure to share the show if you like it, that's how new people find the show, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }