{ "episodeId": "SLP399", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "christian_keroles_ck": { "name": "Christian Keroles (CK", "role": "guest", "tag": "CHRISTIAN" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.55, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, and Swan is organizing a conference. It's called Pacific Bitcoin. It's gonna be on, on the 10th and 11th of November this year in LA, California. It's gonna be really great. There'll be so many well-known speakers and just people in the Bitcoin world who are going to be there. Pacific Bitcoin Bitcoin is gonna be optimized for fun with sports, games, music, photo opportunities, and high fives. This will be one action-packed week called LA Bitcoin Week, full of educational opportunities, meetups, coworking, and parties throughout the week. So come and join us at the inaugural Pacific Bitcoin Conference in LA on November 10th and 11th. The website is pacificbitcoin dot com and use the code Livera for a discount. Coinkites dot com are the creators of the Cold Card, and they also have the Block Devices which you can use to quickly, at a glance, see things like the Bitcoin price, the block height, and of course, Moscow time. Now, the Coldcard is a must-have for Bitcoin security. You can use it in all different kinds of configurations. If you're a beginner, you can just directly plug it to your computer. If you've got the Mark IV that uses the USB-C cable, and if you've got the older versions, that's just a micro-USB cable. So for those of you leaving your coins on an exchange or perhaps you've just got a phone wallet, a Cold is a great way to upgrade and start improving your hardware security. So go and get your cold card, either for yourself or for your friends and family. You can get that at coinkite dot com and use the code levera for a discount. Do you need to run a cloud node? Voltage can help you out with this, and there's all kinds of reasons why you might need to do this, if you are running a business or if you want to be a merchant and take payment using the Lightning Network, Voltage can help here. They can help you easily spin up a Bitcoin node or a Lightning node or BTC Pay server node so you can be your own payment processor. Lightning is the future of Bitcoin, Bitcoin payments, and Voltage can help you integrate this in a very quick and hassle-free way. So don't waste time with maintenance and integration, you can deploy and iterate faster. So whether you want to route payments or build your small business or scale an enterprise company, Voltage can help you. So go and get started over at Voltage dot cloud. So joining me on the show today is Christian Keroles, aka CK. He's the GM, General Manager of Bitcoin Magazine, and he joins me on the show to talk about some of the problems that Europe is facing and why Bitcoin is good for Europe. And so here's my conversation with Christian." }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "02:40", "start": 159.54, "text": "CK, welcome to the show. Stephan, it's an absolute pleasure, long time fan, first time, guest, so really an honor." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:48", "start": 168.47, "text": "Yeah, well, hey, you know what? We've known each other for years. I think I first met you in 2019, just before Bitcoin 2019. And, you know, obviously big fan and, love the work you guys are doing over at Bitcoin Magazine, the Bitcoin Conference, and all these different, initiatives that you guys are running. So big fan. So maybe just a Who don't know you, they might have heard of Bitcoin Magazine, but they might not have heard a little bit about you. Do you wanna just give us a bit about, about yourself?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "03:16", "start": 195.63, "text": "Yeah, no, absolutely. So, CK, CKsnarks on Twitter. I am the general manager at Bitcoin Magazine, been here since twenty eighteen. and it's really been a lot of fun. So, I mean, I can't complain. I have a dream job working in, you know, for one of the coolest companies in the space, and, obviously, I get Other amazing folks, and yeah, honestly, feel absolutely blessed. So, yeah, I, I just make Bitcoin Magazine happen. really passionate about the work we, we do about amplifying, community members and amplifying the signal in Bitcoin and really getting past a lot of the BS that other outlets, really kind of lean on. so, really proud of Bitcoin Magazine and, again, super excited to chat with you about Bitcoin Europe and, Bitcoin Amsterdam. Yeah, for sure. And I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:11", "start": 250.99, "text": "think this is probably going to be a strong theme in our chat today is Bitcoin in Europe, it seems in trouble, doesn't it? And there are so many ways in which Bitcoin is good for Europe, as, as I, I think y-you and I would both argue. So do you wanna just give us a bit of an overview, what's the current situation? What is the current state of play with Bitcoin in Europe?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "04:31", "start": 271.28, "text": "Yeah, so I mean, I would say Europe is a-- was actually a very early hotbed for Bitcoin, some of the earliest and Influential Bitcoin companies are based out of Europe. You can think of Satoshi Labs, you can think of Ledger hardware devices, you can think of Flushpool, Brains, all of which, you know, are really institutions and, still extremely productive and impactful members of, the Bitcoin ecosystem. But then on the flip side, you see really strong attacks and advanced attacks against Bitcoin usage and Bitcoin users. we've seen We've seen, a bill or law or proposition get struck down, in late stages in European Parliament around banning proof of work, so obviously that didn't pass, but that's just the first go-around. We're seeing really detailed and, and almost thoughtful, sort of KYC and anti-money laundering, extensions into Bitcoin self-custody and withdrawing off of exchanges, and we're seeing that being Adopted and kind of forced down central points relatively quickly, we're seeing wealth taxes in Europe and we're seeing confiscation of land and we're seeing a lot of other things that aren't directly associated with Bitcoin, but I would say are attacks on Bitcoiners or setting up attacks on Bitcoiners, so and Europeans in general. So generally speaking, you know, we're just kind of glossing over some of the high-level stuff. I think that there's a lot of macro issues with Europe as well, we're seeing the Euro- Euro trading, below the dollar or at parity with the dollar for the first time since two thousand and one. we're seeing the pound trading lower. we're seeing parabolic price of natural gas and other energy sources in Germany and other parts of Europe. obviously conflict in Ukraine. There's just a lot happening and, a lot in question, you know, obviously things happening in the Netherlands and in Italy with, with farmers and, and just people being upset, and protesting. So General instability and, there's really no end in sight for the negative news. Yeah, absolutely." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:46", "start": 406.13, "text": "And so there's all these different forces moving in different directions. Of course, Bitcoin is there as a freedom technology, as I know you and I and many listeners believe in, but there's also these people who, in some cases, it's ignorance, in some cases maybe it's a desire for control or power, they are attempting to dull the impact of Bitcoin in Europe. Europe and European countries. So I think probably the good point to start here is where, where do you think some of this is coming from? Is it, is it out of ignorance? Is it out of malice? Is it out of fear?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "07:22", "start": 441.61, "text": "What do you think? I would say there's probably two, two kind of layers to consider here. I would say first, it's really hard to say it's just pure malice. I'd like to give even politicians the benefit of the doubt that They're a part of a system, they're reacting to fiat incentives. so I do think that generally speaking, people are trying to do what's best for their countrymen. You know, we're seeing maybe some of the attacks against, you know, farmers and production in parts of the country or in parts of Europe from, you know, from their, their politicians and their parliaments. Maybe that stemmed in wanting to do something good for the environment or to, Stave off global warming, but that system is broken and those decisions, they're being influenced by negative forces, you know, outside forces that people aren't necessarily, disclosing. So I do think that ultimately that system has, the system has catastrophic end results, right? So, despite maybe some politicians giving them the benefit of the doubt, they're pushing forward a system that can't end well. I talk about this a lot on Fed Watch, which is, the- Podcast I do with Ansel Lindner, it's a macro podcast we do at Bitcoin Magazine. Ansel is an amazing macro analyst, I'm kind of just the dummy, you know, really just kind of hashing it out with him and having him explain it to me. But, you know, really at the root, Europe has a lot of issues with how it's set up. The EU has a lot of issues with how it's set up. there is a monetary union, they all use the same currency, the euro, but- There isn't a fiscal union, there, there isn't a cultural union, and, you know, there isn't even a language union. So, there are, you know, a lot of reasons why the EU isn't similar to the US and, can't behave like the US system and really has its own kind of issues that it's trying to work through while still being a relatively new system. You know, this was formed in the nineties, implemented in, and especially with the EU and the- 2000, so, you know, it's very, very new system and, with working with entrenched countries, that have a history of not necessarily working well together. So, very, very interesting kind of seeing what is happening with Europe in general and, you know, what is causing these issues. Sure. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:50", "start": 589.97, "text": "the guiding point for many of us in the Bitcoin world is education, and it's the value of teaching people about Bitcoin, what it really is, and I think part of what's going on now Maybe not all of it, but part of it is actually just down to not un- people not understanding what Bitcoin is, so they think, \"Oh, it's, it's like a-- it should be like regulated the same way that banking is.\" And therefore, you know, we get this terminology that's wrong or misleading, like this quote-unquote unhosted wallets terminology. So I'm curious, how much do you think that's playing into this? Sure. So," }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "10:22", "start": 622.4, "text": "I would love to talk about your Beauty on episode. I thought it was really fantastic, and I personally have Beauty on content as I can, I think the way that, he phrases and thinks about Bitcoin, is really helpful and useful and accurate. And ultimately, I think this may have been a podcast that you've done, but, you know, all of the, all of the kind of like phrases, or names of things in Bitcoin aren't actually real. Like there aren't no coins, there isn't no wallet. All of these things, you know, they're just trying to constructs to help us understand us as users under- Understand, you know, what we're doing in the context of Bitcoin with maybe some things that we're familiar with in the analog world. So, when it comes to hosted wallets versus unhosted wallets and things like that, I mean, ultimately, obviously these are attacks, right? So, it's all about framing in order to maintain control, you know, while giving the politicians a benefit of the doubt, they want to control their public and they're not, you know, this isn't a secret. They are Constantly pushing forward initiatives in order to lock down and permission and implement ways of monitoring, their citizenry within the existing system, and, and, and the traditional system, and of course, they're gonna be trying to find ways to have that, that monitoring, have that surveillance creep into Bitcoin, creep into, the greater crypto infrastructure. So they're gonna do whatever- It takes in order to push that mandate forward, no matter if it's good or not. Again, it's, they're pushing forward a system that has momentum, it has inertia, and that inertia is extremely hard to stop. So again, it's really important to understand that a unhosted wallet is just a wallet that is controlled by the user, and really a hosted wallet is, is a wallet that you don't control, or it's a sign-- you know, it's a, it's having the, it's having someone else hold your signing information. So if you want Bitcoin's features as a European, you need to hold Bitcoin yourself, you need to have it in a wallet that you control, not a wallet that European politicians want to be able to control. so obviously the rhetoric is, is an attack and it's something that Europeans need to stay vigilant about because, using, you know, rhetoric, trying to paint, Bitcoin users and, Europeans that want to have sovereignty and control As the enemy, it's gonna be coming and, I don't think it's gonna take very long." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:05", "start": 784.66, "text": "So this whole terminology around unhosted and it is concerning the way the language is just being adopted and used. And of course, we should reject that language and we should do our best, those of us who are, whatever you wanna call us, educators, promoters, advocates, whatever, we should generally, where possible, be educating people and showing people to use non-custodial options. so I think that's one way. To make sure, that people understand, but it's also about speaking about things in the, in accurate ways, whether it's, you know, using terminology in ways that hopefully don't confuse people or send them the wrong way. The sad part seems that no matter what, the certain forces will define things in certain ways and say, \"Oh, look, it's really scary because this bank or this government institution doesn't have the same level of insight or...\" Control. I know people have joked about this idea on Twitter saying, \"Look, if cash was invented today, that would probably be banned too.\" You know, and so part of that is just this broader environment around AML laws. So for people who aren't familiar, AML stands for anti-money laundering, and so in this case, one of the crucial pieces of that is this notion of the travel rule. so yeah, perhaps you wanna just expand a little bit on what's going on around that specific regulation and what that impact is having for those- Those people who are Bitcoin users and Bitcoin companies in Europe." }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "14:33", "start": 873.08, "text": "Yeah, so first shout out to Marty Bent. He's been, kind of pounding the drum on the Financial Action Task Force for a long time, but effectively, non-elected bureaucratic, institution that effectively puts together regulations around, know your customer and anti-money laundering, rules, and then governments across the world adopt those rules Rules, and interpret those rules. So, obviously unelected, you know, not of any people, and really coordinating governments together in order to implement rules, KYC rules that, frankly, there is no data that shows that they actually help with law enforcement. It's just really surveilling, you know, innocent, law-abiding people who actually follow the rules. so with this financial action task force, they've recently- In the last few years, have recommended, the travel rule, which is effectively an information sharing mechanism and, and policy, between exchanges and otherwise known as like digital asset, is it VASPs or virtual assets? V-VASP, virtual asset service providers, yeah. Exactly. So there you go. So, it, it forces these VASPs, pretty much exchanges, to share customer information, as they're sending funds between Each other, and then now that's being expanded into when you withdraw off those exchanges into a, let's just call it an unknown wallet, a wallet they don't recognize being owned by another exchange, they also have to collect information of like whose wallet that is, right? And so that's like the next creeping step into the Bitcoin infrastructure is, is enabling that, and we've even seen some wallet providers make it convenient to pass that information From your, your, your hardware wallet or your, or your hot wallet on your, on your phone. So it's really scary seeing that being implemented. It wasn't that long ago that people used to talk about, \"Hey, I could buy Bitcoin without KYC.\" Now, you know, it's very difficult to do that. and I could see a world where, at least in Europe, it's very difficult to withdraw your Bitcoin or withdraw it without, some very, yeah, heavy KYC, right? So, as there's more and more KYC creeping into, Bitcoin overlay and more of that, you know, off-chain information is being linked to on-chain activity, that's bad for Bitcoin users, that's definitely bad for European users, and the scary thing is, honestly, is that we just don't know the full implications of this. When Bitcoin reaches a hyper Bitcoinized future, a lot of these early adopters are gonna be insanely well off, and all of a sudden, this information, you know, lives on the internet Internet and on the Bitcoin blockchain for eternity. so we have no idea the implications of this, and again, the scary part is, is just, this is just the beginning, right? And, if you're European, you're seeing everything that's going on. Obviously, it's time to make a stand because, Bitcoin is one of the few sovereign tools that can help you, and that's being attacked alongside, you know, pretty much everything else that, is making life, you know, the way We all know it today." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:01", "start": 1081.04, "text": "Sure. And so let's say the summary here is there's this entity called the Financial Action Task Force, and they get funding from all these different governments around the world. And so there's pressure going both ways in some ta-- in some instances. So in some cases, things will come politically in the countries, and it'll go up to FAF, and then the other aspect is FAF will push things down to regulators and into the different countries in various ways. So we've been talking about this on this show for years, for so long. Longtime listeners know, but newer listeners, the point here is that FATF are driving various controls into regulators and politicians in, in each of these different countries. And so typically, there might be some scare, something might happen, and they'll say, \"Oh, well, see, the answer is more surveillance. The answer is more AML.\" But more AML and more KYC and more all of this hasn't necessarily led to more successful prosecutions, as, I've had Dr. Ron Paul, P O L, not Ron Paul, he's spoken about the The ineffectiveness of AML and how it's just been such an ineffective strategy, and yet what we're seeing is these government politicians and regulators who sort of amp each other up to drive more and more KYC, more and more AML, and we see this as an example, various countries will be what's called grey-listed or blacklisted, and they'll say, \"Ah, you didn't do enough KYC and AML, we think you, you know, you must be doing money laundering, that's what they say, and therefore increase your KYC AML or we'll put you And once you're on a grey list or a blacklist, other banks may not want to do business with you or send money through to you, and it can make it difficult for somebody who's in that country to transact, obviously. So that's a little bit of the context about what's going on here. And of course, Seiko, I, I agree with you. I think this is something that should be fought. Now, probably the question could come back, there may be some-- obviously, Bitcoiners tend to have a cypherpunk and libertarian bent. Some of them shun politics. Do any politics stuff, I just believe we should write code and build out products and services. What would you say to that view? Do you believe there's still a role for advocacy, lobbying, politics in this fight?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "20:13", "start": 1212.55, "text": "You know, I would say that the most important role is for education, right? So let's just say your personal bent is not to get involved in politics, that's fine, but you still can make a huge impact by educating other people about why these specific things- Things are important and why, the anti-money laundering laws that are, you know, kind of being put in place, especially around Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in Europe, are ineffective and actually hurt Europeans. And then from there, someone who actually cares about politics is gonna go and, and push it in that avenue. what I think about Bitcoin in general is that Bitcoin, like, Bitcoin doesn't have to choose, right? So there's cypherpunks that are gonna be building code, and then there are lawyers and politicians Politicians and people who are much more, politically inclined who are gonna advocate for it. So, you know, Bitcoin gets it all, Bitcoin is for everyone, and therefore everyone is going to advocate for Bitcoin in their own way. So, yeah, I mean, I, I'm very bullish on Bitcoin because of that, but obviously we need major education because, in Europe, you know, there are clearly lots of very, very, effective Bitcoiners, and there is some of the strongest Bitcoin communities In the world there, in most historic Bitcoin communities, but at the same time, there's the most headwinds as well. So a lot of people in Europe need Bitcoin, a lot of people in Europe could benefit from, from this, this technology, and they will, and they'll have to learn it soon, and there's a massive opportunity to educate, I think, and to bring on more champions who are gonna champion Bitcoin in their own way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:56", "start": 1315.52, "text": "Yeah, for sure. And so on that whole theme of why Bitcoin is- is good for Europe. Let's talk about some of the benefits there of Bitcoin in non-custodial, applications. What sort of benefits do you see for Europeans who use Bitcoin in the" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "22:11", "start": 1330.89, "text": "self-sovereign way? Well, so Bitcoin has a lot of features that I think are super beneficial for European individuals as well as European institutions. First and foremost, I think that the anger and the attacks on Bitcoin's proof of work are first extremely misguided, but two, in hindsight are gonna be, viewed as extremely, extremely counterproductive. Bitcoin's proof of work is an incentive that pushes Europe towards energy independence. It pushes Europe against energy, anti-energy policy and towards And aligns it towards, you know, extracting energy in economic ways and make, and having energy abundant. So I think without a doubt, that aspect alone is absolutely, absolutely something that Europe needs and can help Europeans an enormous amount. I have, several German friends, and guess what they're talking about right now? You know, young European Germans, they're talking about heating their fl- Plats in their apartments next winter and how expensive fuel is. You know, you can't imagine that you can do much in life when it's frozen over and you can't even, you know, heat your space. So let alone, you know, be productive as Germans typically are. it's difficult to do the basics without, without, you know, cheap and abundant energy. And Bitcoin is the incentive that's pushing against the anti-energy policy, anti-energy rhetoric, and, you know, anti-energy infrastructure. structure that is, you know, currently being rolled out in, in, in Europe. So I think that's a huge one, Stephan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:57", "start": 1437.32, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Brains dot com is the place to go for Bitcoin mining education content as well as software products. So on their blog, you can find all kinds of informational material around the Bitcoin mining industry, and you can also see the analytics dashboard on their insights page, which allows you to at a glance see what's happening in the Bitcoin mining world as well as Run your own profitability calculations, and you can also compare and run the numbers based on running BrainzOS Plus or using stock firmware for various models. Now, for those of you who have Bitcoin mining ASICs, consider operating with BrainzOS Plus. This allows you to increase the hash rate on your Bitcoin ASIC and improve your efficiency, and you can also point your hash rate towards what will now be called BrainzPool and get zero percent pool fees. So that website is brains dot com. Have you been putting off taking your coins off the exchange? Unchained Capital can help you. They can help you improve your security and do this in a way where you are removing single points of failure. It's never been more important to understand this message, and so don't put this off. Unchained can help you with concierge onboarding. This is a personalized service to guide you through, so they will send you the required hardware, they'll do a video call and set you up, and they will help you withdraw from the exchange into keys that you control. So they also- Offer some ongoing support, and this is just a great way to get your coins off the exchange. So whether this is for yourself or a friend you know, go to the website, it's unchained dot com slash concierge, and you can get a discount by using the code Livera. And now back to the show. Yeah, and as you rightly refer to there, the anti-proof-of-work rhetoric, that also requires a lot of education. So that also, you're referring to the MICA, I believe it's Markets in Crypto Assets bill. Now, this is probably three or four months ago, there was, a bit more discussion about this on Twitter, and I think that particular bill got shot down, but that's probably, as you mentioned, that's probably just the first salvo. There's more to come, and so there's obviously a lot of education That needs to be done about proof of work and, why proof of work is essential for Bitcoin. So if you had to just sum it up in a nutshell for people who maybe they're relatively new, how would you sum it up for them as to why proof of work is important, why proof of work mining shouldn't be banned?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "26:21", "start": 1581.4, "text": "Well, first and foremost, proof of work is a innovation in how to create a objective truth on the internet and how to make sure that, there is Is, honest actors with absolutely no trust whatsoever between them. So it's part of the impeccable cocktail that, that makes Bitcoin what it is. And ultimately, and I think our friend Hasmukh has done some amazing analysis, yeah, if you look at Bitcoin as a PPE system, philosophical, political, and economic system, and then you look at the cost of implementing that system So we all live within some sort of political, philosophical and economic system, and, you know, that's democracy, that is, the, you know, Western rule of law, or, you know, that's, totalitarianism and, you know, kind of this top-down structure that we see out of China, and the East. But we all live in a system like that, and Bitcoin itself is a system like that. And when you compare the energy costs that go into supporting a system like Bitcoin compared- Supporting, more traditional PPE systems, Bitcoin is orders of magnitudes cheaper, it's much, much, much, much, much more efficient. So if you actually look at the grand scheme of things, when, you know, Bitcoin's energy usage compared to any, any real other major industry, it's inconsequential, and the output is the best money we've ever seen, and again, money that Europeans can use to solve a lot of their problems, and we'll talk about some of the other benefits of, of Bitcoin as that Money. but ultimately, even the conversation around Bitcoin's energy usage and comparing Bitcoin's energy usage to other, systems and industries doesn't even really, it's, it's inconsequential in of itself because ultimately what Bitcoin does is it incentivizes, in Bitcoin's proof of work, what it does is it incentivizes energy capture because Bitcoin is the energy buyer of first resort and last resort. So in fact- Effectively, when no one else will buy your energy, Bitcoin will buy your energy, and all of a sudden that changes the game in terms of going and getting energy. and when you can go and get energy and you can have a reliable buyer, all of a sudden that creates the kind of groundwork for energy abundance, which is something that Europe is really, really lacking. So, obviously proof of work is vital for Bitcoin, proof of work is vital for solving the Byzantine gener- Livera's problem, which if you don't know what that is, look it up. but proof of work, again, I can't stress this enough, is one of the most powerful tools in managing grids and incentivizing the capture of energy in the most efficient way possible, which is something that everyone needs, but it's desperately, desperately needed in Europe. Absolutely," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:27", "start": 1767.26, "text": "and so I think it's all about education there, and I think there's different ways to drive that, that can be whether people are writing articles, whether they're doing podcasts, whether they're organizing Bitcoin meetups or organizing Bitcoin conferences, and I think that's something, interesting to see out of what you guys are doing now. So I see you have, Bitcoin Amsterdam, so do you wanna tell us a little bit about that?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "29:49", "start": 1789.03, "text": "Yeah, I definitely wanna talk, talk about Bitcoin Amsterdam. I wanna talk a little bit more about Bitcoin too, though, because, I think there's a lot of other ways that Bitcoin can help Europeans. But just a quick bit about Bitcoin Amsterdam, October 12th through the 14th in Amsterdam, which is one of the most historic, cities, for freedom and liberalism and financial evolution. so just really, really interesting history with, Amsterdam and Dutch influence across the globe. But it is a five thousand person Bitcoin event, the biggest Bitcoin event in Europe, put on by the folks who put on Bitcoin twenty two, Bitcoin twenty one, Bitcoin twenty nineteen, Bitcoin Magazine, so that's BTC Inc, that's us, and it is gonna be an absolute blast, three days, two days of, European focused, Bitcoin content with mostly European bitcoiners, but a lot of o- other amazing bitcoiners, and then we are also throwing a party at the end, Sound Money Fest again. With a bunch of awesome DJs, the venue itself is really, really cool. It is like an indoor-outdoor vibe, so, very similar to Bitcoin 2019 or Bitcoin 2021, and it is, it's just, it's almost like a, a little mini Bitcoin Disneyland. So, there's gonna be activations everywhere. It's right on the river. you can go check it out, on our website as well as on Google Maps, but, it is gonna be an incredible, incredible scene. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:19", "start": 1878.53, "text": "that's cool. And, I know, well, you've got Aaron van Weerden, so he's, been a long time writer, editor, contributor at Bitcoin Magazine, so obviously he'll, he'll be there. I'm sure you'll have some other well-known, bitcoiners. I'm curious, it, it was there any particular reason on why the Netherlands?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "31:36", "start": 1896.0, "text": "I mean, can't, can't spoil, the secret sauce of, you know, why we do what we do, but," }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "31:47", "start": 1906.99, "text": "I'll So yeah, these partners, they are friends of a lot of the hardcore Bitcoiners in, the Netherlands. they throw a lot of great parties, in the Netherlands, and, they came highly recommended by Aaron and, several others. So, yeah, we're really excited and there's just a really strong passion for Amsterdam amongst our team. So, people got really excited about it and, like I said, there's a lot of history as well, whether it- Is financial history, whether that is kind of freedom history, with the Netherlands, but there's also Bitcoin history. So Bitcoin twenty nineteen for us, was modeled after Bitcoin twenty thirteen in San Jose, which is one of the famous original Bitcoin conferences, and then, you know, shortly after that, there was Bitcoin Amsterdam in twenty fourteen. So, I think it's really fitting that our first European event, since we've kind of had that historical homage to Bitcoin twenty thirteen in San Jose Should be in Amsterdam where Bitcoin twenty fourteen, happened. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:54", "start": 1973.95, "text": "sure. And it does strike my mind as well, there was some of this recent FedF travel rule stuff with Bitonic, which was, an exchange in the Netherlands as well. So it's almost, i-it's interesting there because in that case, I, I believe they did manage to win the case against the Dutch central bank. So, I'm, I'm just recalling off the top of my head, I don't have the specific dates or- When? Yeah, and so, you know, I think the hope is that if more people understand and more people are able to take financial self-sovereignty into their own hands, then that just improves the overall system, and these are some of the benefits for European bitcoiners. And of course, what we're seeing now going on with the Dutch farmers, I'm sure there's, perhaps some parallels to what went on with, say, the Canadian truckers and, the, the Dutch farmers. So I'm curious if you have any comment there and whether Bitcoin may end up- Playing a role there too. Well," }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "33:50", "start": 2030.43, "text": "I will just, hit on the first part talking about Bitonic, that was a really cool win from Bitonic. It was awesome to see, an exchange push back, but the Netherlands in general are actually still pushing forward, and the, the Dutch central bank is still pushing forward these, AML D five regulations, these travel rule regulations, and just recently, Coinbase and I believe several other Dutch ex- Exchanges that operate in the Netherlands have implemented similar things, so it looks like Bitonic isn't setting some sort of precedence that is, that is hitting the Dutch exchange landscape across the board. It seems like that is only with Bitonic, and even it, it may not even be over for Bitonic. So, there are a lot of awesome Dutch legal experts that, have published great work, on Bitcoin Magazine and elsewhere on Medium and things like that, kind of going into details around Bitonic and The AMLD5, implementation that is happening in the Netherlands, but it's not over by, by a mile, and Dutch bitcoiners definitely need to get educated, they definitely need to take self-custody, and they need to be, they need to be aware. I do know in the Netherlands, you know, there's a wealth, there's a wealth tax too, so this is something that is kind of like a boogeyman that, you know, people think will never, you know, happen in the US, but these kind of regulations are already alive And to me, that just means you need a self-sovereign, censorship-resistant, portable money. You need Bitcoin, and, you know, I, I can only imagine this kind of stuff is gonna, is gonna, you know, ratchet up. So, I mean, I would love to talk more about Bitcoin, Stephan, just because there's so many features of Bitcoin as a money, Bitcoin as a tool for users that I think might be extremely valuable to Europeans in the not so close future. I don't wanna be a fearmonger, but, you know, again, I just I, I see a lot of these things ratcheting up, not the other way around." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:52", "start": 2152.11, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. And I think the battle now is, I think making sure that people are able to still self-custody at a very minimum, because once that is lost, well, then I think it, it would basically-- Well, in one way, it would push everything underground, and we would see a lot more peer-to-peer. And I think perhaps that was something we saw in, I know Nigeria and Pakistan, we saw more peer-to-peer users, even when the government or central bank banks were making moves against Bitcoin, the self-sovereign Bitcoin, or even in China, when the Chinese government made moves against the Chinese miners about a year ago now. So this is, I think, maybe two thirds or three quarters of the way through twenty twenty-one, there was that big move of the Chinese government against Chinese miners, and yet there are still a lot of Chinese miners mining inside China. So I think that's one aspect of this that it's almost like a cockroach, you can't realistically stop the thing, but at the same time, if we can have more intelligent discussion about Bitcoin, Perhaps the policy around it will be more sensible." }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "36:51", "start": 2211.13, "text": "Yeah, and I mean, that's where I would recommend, you know, all Europeans and all European politicians to listen to your episode with Beauty on, where he discusses, you know, effectively all of this is just a mes-messaging protocol, and it's all just math and speech. So, it's impossible really to, to regulate self-custody, but you can make it very, very difficult for law-abiding, peaceful, innocent Europeans to do so, and you can make it illegal for them to do so, therefore making them criminals. and again, the criminals are still going to, you know, use any general purpose computer, any commodity hardware to generate a secure, you know, a secure Bitcoin wallet and, and operate with it. It's, it, it's, they're not gonna be able to stop it. Again, these, these laws, all they do is tax and burden lawful, le- you know, innocent, people. So, you know, I, I got- I think I'm kind of going on a rant here, but ultimately, it doesn't work, and, again, Bitcoin can't be stopped anyways, so you're just kind of making criminals out of people. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:02", "start": 2281.94, "text": "And I think it just goes to show that sometimes a big propaganda campaign, if they keep repeating the lie, it seems like that's, that's kind of the, the thing they're going for with certain terminology, things like unhosted wallets and trying to ban them, and we-- you know, I think some of the narratives around- Bitcoin that, oh, see, it must be being used by criminals, it must be being used by, you know, people who hate the environment. These are some of the narratives, and I think that's something that as a Bitcoin community, advocates, educators, whatever, people should be trying to fight back on that, and they should be coming back with a positive narrative about the positive things Bitcoin can do. So I'm curious if there's any other positive aspects that you think the community should be highlighting rightly. I" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "38:44", "start": 2323.99, "text": "mean, I would say absolutely. I think the, the fact that Bitcoin- Bitcoin is sound money that can't be confiscated, is something that a lot of people are going to flock to. So, you know, I don't know how real this is, but a lot of the anger around what's happening in the Netherlands with the Dutch farmers, what's happening in Italy, what is potentially gonna be happening in Canada, is one, not being able to, you know, run your agricultural business because of over-- these, these Regulations that are, are limiting them, but also the idea of having your land and your wealth confiscated. So as long as people can hold their own keys, as long as Bitcoin UTXOs, and keys are distributed, amongst peers and not consolidated amongst, you know, wallet, wallet providers, exchanges, then Bitcoin, by its nature, is extremely, extremely difficult to seize. So So that may be something that someone who is a bit naive or someone who's not taking the threat of wealth confiscation seriously, it might, it might not resonate with them. But a lot of people, that's starting to resonate with them. It, it, it's actually that the number of people that that value prop is resonating with is growing, and I see it growing quickly in Europe. There are a lot of people in Eastern Europe, people who are involved or had family history with, Germany, In the Nazi times or history with, Eastern, you know, kind of, the Soviet Union, they know what it's like to not be able to leave with any of your wealth. They know what it's like to try to weave gold into your pants or risk your life to smuggle just some sort of additional wealth over or start your life over with absolutely nothing. Well, because of Bitcoin's digital nature and Bitcoin's, liquid market and, the ability for you- To cross a border with all of your wealth, Bitcoin changes that dynamic completely. it changes the calculus for potentially leaving your country. Let's say you're over with what's happening in Europe and you, you wanna go. Well, guess what? Bitcoin enables that. Do you think that the CBDC that, Christine Lagarde is pushing is going to do that? you know, I've heard language around there's gonna be like KYC limits around two hundred euro transactions. so, you know, there really is going to be a-- this loss of trust with institutions, and the more that there are loss of trust with institutions, I think the la-- Bitcoin's value prop of being trustless, censorship resistant, seizure resistant, and transportable is going to resonate more and more, with Europeans that are gonna look to tap, tap those, those features. So there's lots- Lots of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:49", "start": 2508.97, "text": "things in there that we have to think about, like one of those is really that main benefit is people understanding that Bitcoin allows you to transact more freely, and I think part of that is helping communicate to people that if they do this peer-to-peer and if they actually are using non-custodial wallets or, you know, software, then they are retaining more of that freedom, because that's something we even see, there are times where people will talk on Twitter or show a video, and you see it's a custodial wallet or it's a custo- custodial account rather, and that always makes me feel a bit, oh, hang on, like you should try to use the non custodial version if you can. Of course, I understand maybe in certain exception cases you just have to, but in others, I think we really can actually drive non custodial use better." }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "42:35", "start": 2555.04, "text": "What do you think? Absolutely, and again, I think part of it is, like you said, when the onerous regulations come down, that drives people to using P2P. but on the flip side, I think that when it comes to education And I think that Bitcoiners can one, educate people about what Bitcoin is. You know, I've seen people hold up a Coinbase account to me and be like, \"Yeah, here, this is my Bitcoin.\" You know, they obviously don't know that, you know, they can withdraw their Bitcoin, that they can control their Bitcoin, that while it's in your Coinbase account or in your exchange account, that you don't have any of those features I just talked about, those, censorship-resistant, seizure-resistant features. If anything, you're actually ex-more prone. You're, you're pre 6102'd, right? So I think it's important for us to educate people around that, for us to onboard people in ways that are inherently non-custodial. I wanna give a shout out to Bitter, that is a great European based, brokerage for Bitcoin, where, you know, you send them a wire, they send you Bitcoin directly to your wallet, there's no custody. Bull Bitcoin in Canada does the same thing. Swan is kind of like a hybrid, but of, you know, any exchange in the In the US, I, I believe that you, you all do the most in terms of trying to automate, that withdrawing behavior and that cold storage behavior. But yeah, I mean, hey, shout out to Azteco, Buidion's service where, you buy a voucher and then you, you claim that voucher, on your non-custodial wallet. There is no custody involved whatsoever. So, as well as much, much less, onerous regulation because of the way that he's framed and, and manages, So shout out to Beauty on, there is a way, and I think that one of the best ways to learn about Bitcoin and using Bitcoin the right way, kind of coming full circle back to Bitcoin Amsterdam, is going to Bitcoin meetups, going to Bitcoin conferences, and if you're in Europe, there are tons of Bitcoin conferences going on right now, Bitcoin only conferences, and then obviously the biggest one is Bitcoin Amsterdam. So, I think there's a lot of opportunity for Europeans to up their Bitcoin game. I think there's a lot of demand For Bitcoin's features in Europe, either today or in the future, and, I truly believe that Bitcoin is good for Europe, and that Bitcoiners need Europe, Europ- Europeans need Bitcoin, and just really excited to, you know, be able to meet the, the Bitcoin community in Europe, as well as hopefully show some curious or interested Europeans what the European Bitcoin community is like. That's my favorite thing about the Bitcoin conference, is bringing new coiners and showing them What the Bitcoin community, what the Bitcoin revolution is all about." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:23", "start": 2722.87, "text": "Yeah, and I agree with you, and I think this is one of those things where sometimes I see this message put out online of, \"Oh, why pay to go to this conference? I can just get the stuff online for free.\" I, I mean, I, I'm, you know, from, from my point of view, I see that a bit like, \"Look, I understand for some people, yeah, you can see talks online for free, but part of that is actually, it's a way for people who are new" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:49", "start": 2748.53, "text": "met people and really made it real in your own mind, it's just not the same. And I, I, I can name multiple examples of people who have gone to Bitcoin conferences and then when they came back home to their town or their country, they then went on to organize their own Bitcoin meetups and their own conferences because until they had been to one of these events, it just hadn't quite clicked in their head. So I can understand superficially, yeah, if you just want the content, okay, yes, there will be certain aspects that you can get from podcasts or YouTube and you can I really think part of the magic is actually meeting up in person and seeing it in person. So that for me is why I'm still bullish on Bitcoin conferences. Of course, there's, there's a variety of different events. You, you know, I'm not saying you have to go to this specific one, there's all kinds of ones. There's events, there's meetups, there's conferences, but there is some-- there's a certain magic to the, to some of the events, and I think that's probably the way I would put it. Huh? What do you think?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "46:49", "start": 2808.53, "text": "Bitcoin events, the biggest big tent events, but I think Bitcoiners are best in person, you know, I think sometimes Bitcoiners' raw honesty and intolerance to scams, and grifters makes us kind of a rough bunch on Twitter, but we are by far the best people in person, and I've met multiple people who've just said, \"Hey, going to a Bitcoin meetup, meeting Bitcoiners in person, completely changed my mind about the Bitcoin, you know, what Bitcoin is.\" Bitcoin is all about. Actually comparing Bitcoiners to, crypto people in person, is extremely eye-opening just how much more intelligent they are, how much more passionate they are about what's happening, how much more connected they are about what Bitcoin is and how it, interacts with the world. so, you know, I think Bitcoiners are best in person. I personally got this job in twenty-- in, early twenty eighteen. I went to, the North American Bitcoin Conference, which is definitely a shitcoin con Conference, but I got to meet the, the folks at BTC Inc. And I've been in the space ever since professionally. So I know a lot of people who've gotten jobs, at Bitcoin conferences. I know Swan Bitcoin itself came together at Bitcoin twenty nineteen, that's the first time I met you and Brady and Corey as well. So, you know, I think Bitcoin conferences are absolutely amazing, Bitcoin meetups are absolutely amazing, and meeting Bitcoiners in person, you know, that's the whole point. Bitcoin is this di-digital revolution that gets you out in real life, that, that Makes you interact with the real world as well, and, you know, I think that that is very, very obvious when you just see how many Bitcoin community in-person events there are. There's just an insatiable demand." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:31", "start": 2911.42, "text": "Yeah, and I think part of the skill in a way is curation. It's looking at who are the speakers, and you can, and of course, there'll be some speakers who are more popular than others and whatever, but the point is, if you're new, sometimes you're looking at this from the outside and you don't really know who to follow. Know who to actually listen to, and sometimes when you actually go to the conference and you meet people, you make friends, you make connections in the space, then you start getting an idea of, oh, okay, actually there's a philosophy about this, there's actually a message and a broader movement going on here. So I think those are some points that I perhaps missed sometimes in the online conversations that I see, but of course, you know, I think, yeah, generally when I can go to these events, I, I'll try to, can't always, but that's, that's To get your views, from a Bitcoin magazine perspective as well, like in terms of what you're doing around writing and, you know, putting out content, from a Bitcoin magazine point of view for Europe, so can you, elaborate a little bit on that?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "49:33", "start": 2972.64, "text": "Yeah, well, I mean, in terms of Europe, we are-- we just launched, this isn't necessarily Europe, but we just launched Bitcoin Magazine in Ukrainian and in Russian, and we're trying to take our Bitcoin only content global. So, we are- Are working on, another home base out of Europe alongside, what we're doing in Amsterdam, and we are looking to push Bitcoin content in other major European languages, and we're really trying to make Bitcoin as, available as possible. We are still seeing that there's a lot of misinformation, there's a lot of focus on crypto, and, the, you know, a lot of the stuff that we deem to be kind of noise, and There's a lot of, let's just call it, faulty research and, and narratives that are circulating very, very strongly, you know, across the globe, in areas where people don't necessarily speak English. So, you know, I think that's really important for us to continue to bring Bitcoin information in many different languages, European languages, it's important to understand that European languages are prominent across the globe. French is a prominent language in Africa, believe it or not. so, you know, By hitting on some of these other languages, we're really making Bitcoin as global as possible, and we have a lot more big news to come. With that being said, bitcoinmagazine dot com, we publish content in English, and we have an enormous amount of European Bitcoiners constantly contributing, so there's a lot of great information about, what's happening with Bitcoin in Europe, the latest on, the travel rule, the latest on Bitcoin companies based out of Europe, and other- Regulation favorable or not favorable. So check that out, check out European Bitcoiners, and then, you know, I, I don't know how much longer you wanna go, Stephan, but, you know, I would really recommend people to go check out b dot t c forward slash conference forward slash amsterdam, go check out Bitcoin Amsterdam, check out all the amazing speakers we have there. We are really trying to focus on bringing a lot of the great European developers together for this event. there are great events for developers in the US, there's the Tapcomp happening at the same time, but Bitcoin Amsterdam, we're trying to really do something differentiated. We're trying to really focus on, what's happening in Bitcoin in Europe, and we're kind of in some way trying to show Europeans, just like we showed the world, that this European-- or sorry, that this Bitcoin movement is real, that this Bitcoin movement i-has momentum, and there's nothing that shows that than bringing thousands of people together to talk about Bitcoin, celebrate Bitcoin, but just to be physically together in celebration, and, for Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:29", "start": 3148.55, "text": "Yeah. And I would just add, it's-- there's something about the connections that you can make in person, all right? So even for me, when I was just podcasting away from my bedroom and not really meeting many Bitcoiners, it was, it was a big difference between being able to actually attend some of these events, and at some of these events, you get to meet people who you just wouldn't meet otherwise. So I think it's worthwhile And I'm also a contributor with Bitcoin Magazine, so I write, you know, some articles here and there. So, yeah, definitely I'm a big fan of, bitcoinmagazine dot com. So guys, go and check them out and, you know, follow CK. So CK, where can people find you online? any final, points you wanna make?" }, { "speaker": "christian_keroles_ck", "time": "53:04", "start": 3184.4, "text": "Yeah. So y'all can follow me online at, CK underscore snarks on Twitter. obviously everything, at Bitcoin Magazine, has some sort of my touch on it. And yeah Awesome contributor, you write a semi-regular column with us and, you know, honestly, some of my favorite reads, come from you. So I know most of the time you're interviewing folks, but, I'd love to get your take on Bitcoin as well, and a lot of those great articles can be found at Bitcoin Magazine. So thank you for contributing, Stephan, and thank you so much for having me. everyone, thank you so much for listening. Bitcoin is good for Europe, go to Bitcoin Amsterdam, go to Bitcoin meetups, buy Bitcoin, Bitcoin and we didn't talk about this much, but, you know, kind of prepare for, just the ratcheting up of, you know, what's continuing to happen across the globe, especially in Europe, and just keep an eye out, y'all, stay safe. Thanks, CK." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:04", "start": 3243.78, "text": "So for this one, there's a lot of relevant links that I've put in the show notes. So for example, previous episodes with Beauty on, GG, Ron Paul, links to Hasmukh's Bitcoin Magazine articles, as well as Bitcoin Magazine, and the Bitcoin Amsterdam. So you can get all that at stephanolivera dot com slash three nine nine. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }