{ "episodeId": "SLP410", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine": { "name": "Pete Rizzo of Bitcoin Magazine", "role": "guest", "tag": "PETE" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.51, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today for episode four hundred and ten, my guest is Pete Rizzo. He is an editor at Bitcoin Magazine, and we're talking about the principles of Bitcoin maximalism. Now, there's been a lot of discussion about this over the last few months, articles, discussion online, and so on, but I think it is interesting and important. To have Bitcoin maximalists decide what that role is for themselves, as opposed to having that put onto them by somebody else. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, the easy way to buy Bitcoin and learn about Bitcoin. Swan is organizing a conference, it's called Pacific Bitcoin, it's on the tenth and the eleventh of November in LA, California this year. I'll be one of the hosts, there's gonna be a range of awesome Bitcoiners there, whether that's speakers or just everyday Bitcoiners that you'd know and love from Bitcoin Twitter. There will be all kinds of fun events also. There'll be a swan dome with deep dive sessions, there'll be a Bitcoin lab and all kinds of other sports and gaming associated things to give you a flavor of Bitcoin, but also a bit of fun associated with it. So you don't wanna miss this one, particularly if you're in the area or you've got friends and family who you think they could really benefit from coming to a Bitcoin event like this. So go to pacificbitcoin dot com and use the code Livera to get a discount on your tickets. They are rising in price over time, so you wanna get in now. Welcoming a Dot io. This is a dashboard that you can use as a one-stop shop to keep an eye on the Bitcoin ecosystem. So you can see the Bitcoin price, you can see an article feed, you can see blockchain statistics, difficulty stats, mining fees, as well as Lightning statistics. These are all different things that you can use to keep an eye on the ecosystem. I also like to keep an eye on the sats per dollar, which is useful if you're doing some mental maths around what, how much Bitcoin you're paying for things or receiving for things. So that website is Bitbo dot io. It You want to bookmark or to periodically check, that's b i t b o dot i o. If you're in the market for Bitcoin hardware, my favorite is the Coldcard, available over at coinkite dot com. The Coldcard looks like a little calculator, but it is a highly recommended Bitcoin wallet with so many different features and very, very versatile. It's been designed in a way to be very secure while giving you all kinds of options and methods that you can use to further secure your Bitcoin, whether that's Using it as part of multi-signature or whether it's using the address explorer on the device. This is a great way to practically check which addresses are controlled and owned by the private keys residing on your Bitcoin cold card, and this can help you by making sure that you don't receive into a bad address or malicious address. So if you're interested to get your cold card, go over and get yours at coinkite dot com and use the code livera to get a discount on your cold cards. Welcoming a new sponsor to the show, it's Bitbo dot This is a dashboard that you can use as a one-stop shop to keep an eye on the Bitcoin ecosystem. So you can see the Bitcoin price, you can see an article feed, you can see blockchain statistics, difficulty stats, mining fees, as well as Lightning statistics. These are all different things that you can use to keep an eye on the ecosystem. I also like to keep an eye on the sats per dollar, which is useful if you're doing some mental maths around what, how much Bitcoin you're paying for things or receiving for things. So that website is bitbo.io. It's a great one To bookmark or to periodically check, that's b i t b o dot i o. And now onto the show with Pete. Pete, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "03:39", "start": 219.49, "text": "Awesome to be here. Great to see you in Texas, and, yeah, what a, what a time to be in Bitcoin, huh?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:45", "start": 225.25, "text": "Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, so for listeners and just for anyone listening in future, we've just come from Bitblock Boom, in August twenty twenty-two, over in Austin, Texas, and, as we speak now, I'm actually in R another European, conference, and, Pete, you've written this article recently on how to be a Bitcoin maximalist, and I think there's various ideas to explore here around essentially what are some of the principles of maximalism, what is it the people, what is it maximalists actually believe, what should maximalists actually do. So, do you wanna start off with why'd you write this?" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "04:25", "start": 264.89, "text": "Yeah, I'll start off with that. I mean, I think it's pretty clear, like Bitcoin maximalism is under attack, right? So there's, people all over the internet, who seem to be mad at Bitcoin maximalists, right? And their, their accusations are, are kind of always the same, right? It's that Bitcoin maximalists are intolerant and, and belligerent, and it is actually Bitcoin maximalism is actually the belief structure, that encourages that, right? So that's a bit of a sophisticated breakdown of the claim. Often it comes" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "04:55", "start": 294.53, "text": "They mean, right, that there's this rogue group of people, who are irrational and, and that's sort of lashing out, you know, at the world, right? And so, and they're, and they're blaming Bitcoin maximalism, right? So as, as someone who comes from a background as a journalist or somebody, you know, who's research oriented, it's like, you know, words have to have meanings, right? So therefore, we have to break this down. And, you know, I wrote in the article, you know, if you" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "05:25", "start": 324.51, "text": "Maximalism, so, you know, what is it that people are actually mad about? So, you know, in this case, I essentially just tried to strip down the argument and say, you know, okay, let's, let's not talk about these bad behaviors and negative behaviors, which, you know, look, they exist in online communities. you know, if we can strip out this kind of toxic nature from what people assume is Bitcoin maximalism, what is it, right? Is, what is Bitcoin maximalism at its essence? and is it in fact bad, right? Or perhaps maybe those people are just, you know, expressing something inefficiently, or maybe they, you know, they think they're doing the right thing. you know, can we break it down on that level? And I think what I was able to find is that, you know, what I suspected, that essentially Bitcoin maximalism is actually a, you know, very coherent and I think valuable set of values. I think it's one that we all share. But, you know, again, there's the question that I think that this piece asks then, is like, are we effectively communicating that That conversation is to write down, okay, like what is it actually that unites us, right? And are we actually projecting that positivity, or are we often kind of focusing on the negativity, right? So, so again, I think that's sort of the genesis about this, right? You know, kind of peeling it back, getting to the definition, and then circulating, right? This is Bitcoin. if you don't think my framework is useful, you know, fuck me, you can lash at me on Twitter, make out something different, you know, I'd love to I think Vijay, you know, said it, well, this, this, this is an objective kind of case of like, you know, most Bitcoin maximalists, maximalists, this is what they believe, right? Whether that's always like very clear, to other people is, is kind of a secondary question. Right. And so in your" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:08", "start": 428.02, "text": "piece, you also help delineate this idea of the ism from the ist. So can you elaborate what, what are you getting at there?" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "07:17", "start": 437.23, "text": "Yeah. So I actually had to look up the dictionary definition here, and I was kind of I a Bitcoin maximalist or do I follow Bitcoin maximalism? So, so generally an ism is a school of beliefs, right? It is the ideological and value structure, and then an ist is someone who follows that, right? so there's a, there's a bit of a separation where, you know, one is essentially a set of values, it is actually a ideology that's kind of divorced from the individual, and then the ist would be the person that embodies that, right? So I think you have to kind of draw a little bit of a line between Bitcoin maximalism and Bitcoin maximal Right, it, it is possible that Bitcoin maximalists maybe don't understand Bitcoin maximalism that well and therefore just kind of, you know, mistake or confuse these kind of things. and again, this is where like, kind of toxicity gets, you know, caught up in all of this, right? And I think, you know, at the end of the day, like, I think you have to believe that Bitcoin maximalism has to solve a specific problem, right? What is it trying to address, right? If it is to exist, like, what is the point of the value" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "08:25", "start": 504.53, "text": "About expanding Bitcoin. It is about, you know, against, you know, the, essentially, you know, who are our antagonists, the fiat world and the crypto world, right? A Bitcoin maximalist should want to expand Bitcoin, you know, against those other systems, right? And eventually we want, you know, Bitcoin to succeed and compete and outcompete these other things. Therefore, Bitcoin maximalism has to be that forward motion, right? So I think, you know, once I was able to kind of crack that, I was like, okay, that, you know Bitcoin is just a tool. Why is this culture even necessary? well, the answer is that the culture exists to advance the tool, right? There, there has to be a relationship between those two things, and I think, you know, that's why Bitcoin maximalism formed, that's why we need Bitcoin maximalists, but we also need that to be like a healthy dynamic, right? We need actually to have a clear conversation about what our values are, and then we need to be able to kind of, you know, 'cause again, I think everybody's had an experience where like that that's not Bitcoin maximalism. So a good example would be like, someone goes on Twitter and they just ship to post somebody else and they call them an asshole or something, and, and somebody's like, \"Oh, well, that's not Bitcoin maximalism.\" okay, well, you know, then you must know what Bitcoin maximalism is. Like, it must be something that isn't getting mad at that guy on Twitter. so again, like that, it-- so I think the piece kind of came from that and trying to peel those apart, right? So" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "09:50", "start": 589.83, "text": "our Maximalism is a set of values, and that sometimes we fail to express that, and it, it is that imbalance that I think is revealed, like in that moment, and, and why we know that they're separate. otherwise they would just be so intertwined. And I've, I've used this example where it's, you know, if, you know, why do I like the term Bitcoin maximalism? If, Bitcoin is such a, a thing that you can just buy a Bitcoin and then you're part of the group, like that's it, like You know, we're essentially like a conservative board ape yacht club where you can just buy, you know, sort of some entrance and then, you know, you're always in the group, right? And then there's nothing, no wrong you can do, you're just, you know, part of, part of Bitcoin, right? So we need, we need Bitcoin maximalism. We need to encourage people to do things that we think are valuable for Bitcoin and understand the values of Bitcoin and then to express them positively. And I think, you know, maybe there's a question of that all not" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:55", "start": 655.03, "text": "It's, and so on and so forth. Yeah, it doesn't" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "10:56", "start": 656.35, "text": "really" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:57", "start": 656.55, "text": "work quite" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "10:57", "start": 656.95, "text": "well on that point. Yeah, Christianity, I think it would be an itty at that point, at that point." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:00", "start": 660.2, "text": "Right, but I mean, you get the idea. In that idea, Christians would be the ists and the Christianism, or Christianity is the ism in this case. Christianity, yeah, would be the ism, yeah, in this case. But I mean, you get the idea. Do you see parallels there then between Bitcoin maximalism and religion? Is there a parallel? Should that be" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "11:25", "start": 684.97, "text": "Right? So, you know, there was this old bit, you know, kind of the person who I consider the, the father of Bitcoin max-maximalism, Mersha Pesquini, used to sort of say that there is no Bitcoin community, right? There's only the software and then using the software, like there's no other part of Bitcoin, right? It is like you're either directly using the software, using it at that moment, or you just don't exist, from Bitcoin's perspective. And I think you have to kind of start from that. So then you sort of" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "11:55", "start": 714.53, "text": "Being the tool it is today, we want to expand its use. So I'll give you an example, you know, so like, we often refer to Bitcoin as a tool for, like, insurance for financial catastrophe or so, sort of an insurance policy kind of on the world, right? well, sure, I own a fire extinguisher, I have one of them, I never use it, and it's in my basement somewhere, and I own it because someday I might have to put a fire out, and there's no culture around this tool, it doesn't seek" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "12:19", "start": 739.47, "text": "to" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "12:25", "start": 744.51, "text": "That's why I own it, and my ownership of it doesn't extend beyond that. so if Bitcoin is just that, if it is only that, and we don't exten-expand, need to expand it further, then I agree, like Bitcoin culture might not be useful. But so since we have this Bitcoin culture, we must want to achieve something with it, right? There must be an attraction to that. And I think, you know, the answer is, you know, whether you call it religion or, or not, you, you see this with a lot of groups" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "12:55", "start": 774.63, "text": "Ism might be the constitution, but then the ists of like America are patriots, right? People who want to further American values. So, so in any large enough culture, essentially you have this tension between, you know, what are the values, and then how do people express them? And then I think like everybody knows and has had experience of cultures where they feel out of line with that culture, or the culture has to act-- actually have a conversation with itself and say like, \"Are we holding up these values?\" Like a good example would be like, you know, after 9/1 States, right? Have we become the empire that we, you know, essentially have always, you know, thought we were the antithesis of? you know, and that came from, and there was a lot of tough conversations about patriotism, being a patriot at that time and what that meant. but essentially, you know, this is about the culture maturing, and Bitcoin's culture is maturing, so therefore it must have some value, and I think it's obvious that Bitcoin culture has value, right? It, it, it helps people convince people that Bitcoin is the right They might want to opt out of those systems, and so the culture then is an antithesis to that. And then the culture is only useful in how much it achieves that goal, right? So therefore, now you have like sort of, now you understand now the culture has a place and it has a goal, and then it, you can sort of evaluate the performance of it, which I think is kind of the ideal. And I, and again, I go back to sort of the other cultures, I think in every other instance you can, you can look at that. So in your specific" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "14:25", "start": 864.57, "text": "Rule set and to convince them to live by their, their moral values, and, you know, the religion is only as strong as its ability to do that. And over time, you know, Christianity has done that very successfully, it's the largest religion, but, you know, we would also as people who are, you know, I'm not a practicing Christian, so I'm outside of that right now, you could say like, you know, there's always problems where like that culture, my dad is a practicing Catholic, constantly kind of talking about, you know, what they can That, you know, podcasts are good for, which is talking about, you know, what the culture and value sets are. but yeah, I, I see this as all sort of intertwined because" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:02", "start": 902.08, "text": "people would disagree, right? Because you can have Christians who disagree, and you can have Bitcoin maximalists who disagree, right? Yeah, right. I think, yeah, what true maximalism is, even in Christian, even in Christianity, there are different, you know, yeah, subgroups, and it's the same kind of thing, even in, in the, in the, I guess the broad Belief that it's not as much of a prescriptive, it's more like, \"Uh, Bitcoin is the best money, \"and it's, you know, the, it's money's going ten to one, \"and that's a descriptive kind of argument, like it's kind of more dispassionate and neutral." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "15:37", "start": 936.68, "text": "Yeah, and I think that's a fine belief, right? And then it's a question of like, okay, well, does that belief actually, you know, what is the, what is the value of it, and is it enough to achieve the objective? And I think" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "15:55", "start": 954.53, "text": "Change over time, it will just win, and that's an inevitability. I can't do anything about that, and, you know, I don't wanna do anything about that. I'm gonna buy into that vision, and that's it for me. And I, and ultimately at the end of the day, you know, I, I think that's fine. I, I don't have a particular issue with it other than, you know, I do think there are a whole other group of people who say like, \"Hey, no, like, if Bitcoin is the best Mechanisms, and ultimately I think both those groups will, will have to coexist. There's, there's actually nothing wrong about either of them in isolation, right? Because they're, they're both good for the ultimate goal, it just suggests that like you as an individual have some choice, right? Again, like the, like that's sort of what we should be about in Bitcoin is just, is just choice, right? So, you know, in me putting down these values, it isn't really to suggest that everyone has to follow them," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "16:52", "start": 1012.05, "text": "it's just, I'm It, you, you have to then accept that other tools exist and that if you don't do anything to get rid of them, your hatred is sort of like misplaced. So I'll give you a good example with like stable coins as an example, right? So that there's a hot kind of debate in, in Bitcoin right now about stable coins. So, you know, if we as a Bitcoin community, don't do anything to, to bring that technology, I wrote in the piece, you know, that one of the values most Bitcoin maximalists share is crypto minimalism," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "17:25", "start": 1044.55, "text": "side of Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency sphere and, and bring them back to Bitcoin. And I actually believe that's, that's one of the most important ones, because essentially if you don't wanna reduce that tool, if we don't wanna bring it back to Bitcoin, whether it's stable coins on Liquid or, you know, Taro with like Sats back dollars, you know, these are all interesting technologies, if those don't take off and they, and they will, they still exist on other chains like Tron or Ethereum or whatever, then you haven't minimized them, they still exist, they Technology here, then it has to exist. So then I would question your, your hatred of that system, right? So, I think we have this word, that's another word I don't like, \"shitcoins.\" I don't think it actually really means anything. I don't, I think anybody actually agrees on, on what it means. so in, in, in, I like crypto minimalism better because I think crypto minimalism evokes two things. It's one that, that, you know, there are cryptocurrencies, they just empirically exist, they just, they're Should be to minimize them, to actively reduce those, you know, to the extent that they're performing useful financial services, migrating them back to Bitcoin, thereby reducing the need for them, and that it's actually will be our actions that decide how much other cryptocurrency type, re- you know, systems exist, right? And it's our tolerance of these systems, that will allow them to continue. So, you know, the example that I've used in this case to get people to understand this, especially people who are new, is that, you know- So Lightning didn't always exist. It's something that we as Bitcoiners had to design and build, and the reason we did that is because we wanted Bitcoin to not just be a settlement system, we wanted it to be a payment system, right? That is-- that was one of its original value propositions many felt, and many felt that that was just a useful tool for a money. and so we had to build this system, right? We had to decide that we wanted to do it. and there was a whole period of time where there were many payments cryptocurrencies, you know, All these like Monero, Dash, you know, all these different things, that you don't hear about anymore. And, and why? Because Bitcoin has essentially now outcompeted those things. It's now both a state, a store of value and a payments, method. And right, it's still in the middle of that competition, but it was our unwillingness as Bitcoiners to allow those things to exist somewhere else, that mitigated them. And my hypothesis is that, that's probably the right relationship to have in going forward. It, it, it does Whether in the crypto world, they're like, \"Why are you attacking us? Like, we're just, you know, building a service that people want.\" and I think our answer to that, you know, should be, \"Well, hey, like, we think that these services are actually gonna be better for people on Bitcoin. Therefore, we aren't-- we are antagonistic to you. We are trying to reduce the amount of these other systems that people need to rely on. but that, that's our goal, right? And, and therefore, you know, we can-- Those, those values can still be antagonistic. Like, I, I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't want to actively reduce the number of cryptocurrencies that are out there. I think that's, that's kind of everybody's goal. you know, so but we do have to maybe get better at like people understanding these other systems, like, hey, yeah, that is our goal, we're going to be antagonistic to you, but that's just maybe the natural state, right? Like, you want to profit and do something that doesn't exist on Bitcoin, we think You know, kind of along the same lines. So there shouldn't be anything like taboo about this. Yeah. Okay. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:59", "start": 1259.36, "text": "one way to think about it could also be to say Bitcoin is likely to win, or, you know, going to win, but people can try, you can try this altcoin if you want. Like, I think that's kind of the more, let's say the, maybe a slightly more neutral or dispassionate view, I think that other bitcoiners do, some of them do take. And then of course, there are others who go even further and let's say they They use from that, from their point of view, they'll just take whatever coin in their view serves that role, whereas obviously I would, you know, where I can use Bitcoin," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "21:31", "start": 1291.4, "text": "I will use Bitcoin. I think a lot of those people are like self-interested, like wouldn't you say? Oh, of course. Like a lot of those people are like really like self-interest maximalists, like, you know, the d-- this is like the d-gened shicoiner mentality, right? Like, so they're, they're in a whole other like value set where it's like Bitcoin maximalists, I think, to then sort of tell them like, \"Hey, that's, that's not an effective mindset, right? Like, like, hey, I've been there, I've potentially lost almost everything because of all the collapse of these things. You know, you should save some in Bitcoin, right? Even if you hate us and you think all of this random garbage that people are saying is correct, you know, like American Hodel says, like, love yourself by Bitcoin. you know, the question then is like, you know, are-- do we have I just think it centers the conversation a little bit more on like, you know, what do we wanna achieve? Like, what responsibilities do we have? And then, you know, how are we going to kind of explain what we're doing to the rest of the crypto world? Which, you know, again, I, I sort of say this all the time to the, the folks in the journalism community, which is that, you know, Bitcoin exists, and it's going up in value over time. You have to have some explanation on that, otherwise, you don't, your opinion" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "22:55", "start": 1374.51, "text": "Currencies exist, like they, they continue to be made. Like you have to have some outlook on them. I think our outlook on them is that, you know, we want to, to diminish them, we, we actually want to outcompete them. and I think if we have that aspiration, we, we should be clear about that. and again, like, there's nothing wrong with antagonism in itself, right? But then, like, antagonism can sometimes cross over into like, and this is where I think it gets a little weird, which is like supremacy, where Like all of those things, and they should never exist. and you know, supremacy is kind of a word where it's like a little, you know, doesn't bring up any good connotations, but like, you know, you have to kind of wonder, it's like, have, have you crossed over into supremacy where it's like, you're so angry that these other things exist that you really just wanna destroy them, and you're just entirely negatively motivated at that point?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:43", "start": 1423.14, "text": "Yeah. What about the notion then of, let's say, seeding the turf, like if you just view it like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:55", "start": 1434.51, "text": "I'd rather seed that turf and let some shitcoin handle that, because I'm focused on getting the money right." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "24:01", "start": 1440.84, "text": "I think that that's a great, like, way to put it is actually like seed the turf. Like, yeah, you have to actually then be willing to allow, you know, again, this is why I said I frame it like, I like crypto minimalism 'cause it suggests what I think is true, which is a lot of these things exist at our behest. They, they exist purely through our willingness not to replace them or our disinterest in replacing them, because Bitcoin is a system that can expand potentially to do, to do all these things, right? That's been the claim of Bitcoin maximalists sort of forever, right? Is that, you know, oh, well, you know, on a long enough timeline, you know, we can do these smart, smart contracts, we can do these, you know, you could, Bitcoin, you know, NFT started on Bitcoin, you know, all these things are just stuff we're gonna be able to rebuild over time. Well, so then you get the question of like, do we want to do that" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "24:55", "start": 1494.51, "text": "Bitcoiners accept ossification, like I don't know where how maximalism exists, because it's just, it doesn't have like a forward direction at that point. You're just sort of accepting that Bitcoin is as is today, and that people will find, you know, utility elsewhere. I think at that point maybe you would, you could be a Bitcoiner and be like very strongly, like, kind of for, you know, Bitcoin as a tool that you could use and, you know, probably the best money amongst other monies, but then you still sort of have the problem of that like" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "25:25", "start": 1524.51, "text": "The, tension that I see in a lot of Bitcoin maximalists right now is that there's, you know, why, why has the online conversation become so difficult? Because it's become very difficult for us to talk about, you know, what it is we're trying to achieve versus this other cryptocurrency systems. Like we see them getting bigger, there's like more kinds of like random shit happening on them, and I think it's unclear to the culture, like what our attitude is to them, right? Like the culture right now, it's like we're just sort of attacking those things, you know, these will go to zero. and again, I think this is where some of the criticism against Bitcoin maximalism has been fair. It's sort of like, well, what if that doesn't happen? You know, what, what, what's, what is gonna, going to be your response then? because then you're sort of, you know, You know, your ideology at that point is going to look like it is incorrect, right? It's going to just appear to people as if it's, if it's, like, not functional what it's trying to achieve, right? And I think, especially around like the Celsius and like kind of all those things collapsing, you know, Bitcoin Maximalism definitely took like a really big vic-victory lap, right? We were like big kind of proponents of custody and like owning your own keys, and, and, you know, I think in the article, I And we should be, and we, we have the right to do that. but then we also have to build other products and services that then can replace them, otherwise like people are still going to use them, right? So there is like a, there is a push-pull on these two dynamics, right? So if we don't build something better, you know, one of the great products, I think that's, that's cool right now is Fedamint, right? They're talking about kind of advanced custody techniques, and, and to see that stuff is out there like that You know, we are trying to get increase the quality of custody, we are actually opposing these like centralized lending services and these other crypto DeFi type lending services, and we are actually making ground there, and to me, that's the right cadence for Bitcoin maximalism, right? It's like we have a clear antagonist, the antagonist is clearly bad, we're putting in the effort to like, to make up ground there, and w- and, you know, it is that culture that is driving that movement forward, and that to me feels like a really, like, solid example, Like the, you know, US dollar stablecoins on, on Terra, but then again, it's like our culture has to then unify behind that, and then we have to make the progress, because, you know, we're not going to be able to kind of- Compete against the zillion shitcoins, right? We can't, we can't do all the things. We have to be really, you know, choice with our energy as bitcoiners, right? I think this is like a lot of the frustration from the people who are critical of Bitcoin maximalists like these days, they're saying like, \"Oh, all these things exist outside of Bitcoin, right?\" sure, because, you know, we're, you know, we can't compete against the contagion effect of all these coins, like you just can't. so then you have Coin maximalists, bitcoiners have, have been slow and methodical in how they're advancing Bitcoin, and, and you know, we're not gonna be the most glistening casino thing at, at any given point, and, and that's an advantage, but, but we have to keep marching forward, right? So, so I go back to it where it's, in a world where we accept ossification, where we don't compete against the, the status quo, then I think maximalism doesn't exist." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:48", "start": 1728.32, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Now, those of you who are still leaving your coins on the exchange, it's time to drain the exchanges. 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They have a full stack solution including ASIC management and firmware that you can use to auto-tune and get more sats for Farm management software, and they are the operators of the world's first Bitcoin mining pool, previously known as Slush Pool, is now going to be called Brains Pool. So if you're interested in that, go to the website, you can find a range of content. They also have a Bitcoin mining book available, so I'll be chatting soon with some of the team on that. And if you're interested, go to brains dot com, that's b r a i i n s dot com. Mempool dot space is the Bitcoin explorer built by Bitcoiners for Bitcoiners. It features real time transaction tracking So you can quickly get the information you need about your Bitcoin transactions. And at the time this podcast goes out, they've got a Lightning Explorer. This is a brand new feature available in mempool dot space, so you can go there and they've got all kinds of features that you can use to view the Lightning network and explore that on mempool dot space. Now, this is available over Tor, it's also completely open source, you can run your own at home. Over one million people use mempool dot space every month. This project is operated freely for the benefit of the community, there are no ads Go try it out today at mempool dot space. And now back to the show. I see. Okay. And so to your point about progressing forward in a centralized ecosystem versus progressing forward in a decentralized ecosystem, this has long been an argument amongst a lot of Bitcoiners also, where, for example, it's, it's a common thing where people say, \"Oh, look, there's actually some old thread on Bitcoin Talk where that idea was proposed years ago and it got shot down, or for whatever reason, it wasn't feasible.\" Fast, scalable, decentralized, et cetera. It didn't tick all the right boxes from a Bitcoin point of view, and I'm sure you, as a, as a, as a bit of a resident Bitcoin historian, you definitely appreciate that also, having obviously trawled through the history records. Yeah, tons of, tons of bad ideas for sure. Yeah, and perhaps some ideas that maybe weren't ready yet, right? And, you know, I'm sure at one point, Lightning or payment channels, people were talking about that in the early years on Bitcoin Talk forums and IRC and Only, it actually act-- it only got actualized in, let's say, early twenty eighteen, when the Lightning Network started." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "31:50", "start": 1910.26, "text": "Well, yeah, that's the thing," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:51", "start": 1911.08, "text": "right? It's like, I think we've" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "31:52", "start": 1911.96, "text": "been good at differentiating from the crypto system as saying, like, \"Hey, you know, look, a lot of these systems that are achieving these things today, they've taken the easy route to get there, you know? \" And this has always, I think, been where the criticism against, you know, Ethereum from people like Greg Maxwell has been most effective by sort of saying" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "32:15", "start": 1934.58, "text": "have is they don't have social consensus on a monetary policy, they don't have, you know, the ability to kind of run their own software, and as kind of you go through the values that I laid out in the article, you know, Ethereum is sort of, you know, absent every one of them. So the first one I wrote down was that, you know, foremost, Bitcoin maximalists should want to preserve Bitcoin for future generations, like we believe the system will exist in perpetuity. so, you know, from a Bitcoin maximalist view, yeah, why would we ever" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "32:44", "start": 1964.48, "text": "Guarantee in that instance that their protocol is gonna be live or operational like the next day, you know? So, so it couldn't be more antithetical to our value set because our value set is actually that this is, you know, such an important system, you know, we can't ever assume like what condition people would wanna use the system is, we can't ex-- you know, we can't, forecast the extremity of their circumstance. So yeah, like we, it's actually, you know, paramount for us that this isn't, this system not only be operational today" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "33:15", "start": 1994.54, "text": "And short time preference, like Bitcoin has a super long time preference, right? Or low, low time preference? Yeah, low time preference. And you go to number two, the Bitcoin running your own software, right? Like so Bitcoin maximalists want to encourage people to run the software. We think that this is what gives you stakeholdership in the network. You know, Bitcoin nodes cheap, really easy to run, can do it in a couple hours. You know, Ethereum debates out, long Twitter threads, takes a couple weeks. You know, can they do something like a UASF? That I said was, you know, essentially the slow commitment to slow software changes and enfranchising all users, and then you look at the merge and, you know, what is it doing? You know, anyone who disagrees with, you know, their technology plan is disenfranchised, like you don't exist, you have to then build your own network, you're kicked off, right? You as a minority sort of cease to exist. and so yeah, you know, again, like this is where I think it becomes helpful, because oftentimes when we try to" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "34:15", "start": 2054.72, "text": "We'd really, I think, struggle to kind of say like, okay, like, you know, we come off as like really angry and like negative, and I think like we can also just say like, no, like this, like, we just don't believe in any of this stuff, like our values, like what we positively think, is opposed to this. and I think, you know, our criticism might be taken or maybe be like more effective at kind of like raising this if we didn't appear so negative, right? Because I think for me, it's like very easy antithetical. And, you know, at the end of the day, if they want to encourage people to put value in that system, you know, that's their choice. I can't stop them, but I'm not gonna encourage you to do that. I'm not going to like, be a part of a system, you know, would, that would have that sort of reckless kind of outlook. and again, I think the better that we are at positively expressing our values, like, the more we're gonna be effective, you know, in making critique, about them" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "35:15", "start": 2115.46, "text": "And if it doesn't happen, like, you know, I'll just be honest, nobody's gonna care, because Ethereum doesn't exist in the same way, doesn't have like an absolute structure. They're just gonna go back to the drawing board, they'll try something else, they'll make something else up. You know, there's no structure, it doesn't have the, the constrained structure of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a system of values and rules, and Ethereum, at the end of the day, is, you know, kind of whatever it wants to be. So, you know culture, that our negativity and our attacks of Ethereum actually come from like our own insecurities. Like we're kind of insecure about Bitcoin. At the end of the day, I'm not, I don't have any insecurities about Bitcoin in relation to the merge. if it works great for Ethereum, if it doesn't, I'm sure they'll figure out something else and make up something else and, and move forward. they're very creative people, much else, you know? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:08", "start": 2168.14, "text": "and I mean, I think the point as you were saying is that Bitcoiners are Raspberry Pi or on your existing computer or your laptop and encouraging people to actually use the, you know, use the tools, as Bitcoiners would say. And so I think that's, that's important to understand that there's, the ecosystems are very different. And so that also goes into the next principle which you said, and, and you were elaborating a bit there, this commitment of slow software changes and trying to enfranchise users. And so I think that's where also a critique comes. They say, \"Oh, look, see, you Bitcoiners, it took forever to get Taproot You know, from their point of view, like there's not even that many people using Taproot, even though we are seeing, so for example, LND is now moving to Taproot by default. Honestly," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "36:54", "start": 2214.13, "text": "that's the biggest one, you know? And I think it-- this is number three is the one that took me the longest to understand, and I would argue that from a Bitcoin like fork wars perspective, like the entirety of the fork wars was about principle number three, and I don't think that anyone, like it took us years, it's-- I, I would say it took the Bitcoin Understand that point. And it's a really deep point, and it's essentially that in a decentralized system, if it is to be truly decentralized, then no one can tell you what software is Bitcoin. Like you have to, like you as an individual get to make a choice of, of softwares, and as long as that software is compatible, it is Bitcoin. and that no action of any other individual or group can actually remove your access to Bitcoin. And I think this is why, like, the more and more I think about it, you know, Bitcoin isn't an economy, it's, it's a culture, it's like a rule set, and, and we do face opposition to other cryptocurrencies, but I, I don't know if they're actually-- Like, I hate the crypto asset thesis, I just think it's so terrible. I, I really think there's just two competing cultures at this point. There's the Bitcoin culture, which has a very clear value set, and I think a pro-user value set, a pro-like human value set, like a, a, a value set that, like as Jimmy Song says, is like very Which is, you know, the Ethereum world, the smart contract platform world, which is move fast, break things, developers lead, the users follow, if it doesn't work, fuck them, they lost their money, they'll speculate on somebody else, degenerate, anti-system, and, you know, the, the two cultures, it makes me sad that Bitcoin maximalism is viewed as such a negative culture because I, I can't think that it isn't like anything but, you know, if you look at the shitcoin like sort of degenerate culture, it is so devoid, like of Any reasonable values other than, like, you know, \"fuck you, I'm gonna get mine, \" \"damn the consequences. \" that it, it really says a lot, I think, about, like, that we haven't been effective in our messaging, because, like, you know, you, if you really actually understand the values the, like, ETH system expresses, like, one of them, I think, is like very nihilistic, like, o-o-often, almost to the point of, like, you know, selfishness and greed, like, over" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "39:15", "start": 2354.56, "text": "No, like, we need to do what's right for everybody. Like, we can't make decisions for everybody else. And yes, that, that is going to slow the ability for us to make these sort of technical upgrades, but it is worth it, and it will be worth it. and to me, that's the kind of fight that, that, that is really romantic about Bitcoin, is that we do have that aspiration, right? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:35", "start": 2375.15, "text": "Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. And I think on the question of being ineffective, in quotes, as you were Look how ineffective you were. All these people just leave their coins on the exchanges, or they say, \"Oh, look how ineffective Bitcoin maximalists have been. Look how many shitcoins there are. There's over twenty thousand shitcoins. If you were so effective, there'd be less of them, right? That's kind of part of the argument. But I think it's also not fair in other ways because it's not like Bitcoin maximalists can stop the creation of new shitcoins, and it's not like we're not already swimming uphill in some ways because there's just all these fiat incentives around us" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:15", "start": 2414.62, "text": "Just go with the fiat flow. What is" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "40:16", "start": 2416.2, "text": "it from, Samuel Johnson, where he's like, \"You know, the path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities and like the evils of the world, right? \" You know, that is, that is the thing, right? Bitcoin maximalism has to be aligned to that path, and, you know, this is why I think, you know, why I've been dismissive of the attacks on Bitcoin maximalism is like, yeah, like we have to walk against the opposition, right? We, we have is an economy that continues to penalize us, where, where, you know, people, you know, who are average people that can't get ahead, does that mean Bitcoin is an inflation hedge? And, you know, I don't think that's true, but again, it's, the whole system itself, you know, has its pros and cons. And then, you know, the crypto system at large, you know, again, we are opposed to that. We, we have to be opposed to both of those things. And, and to me, that, that system of values that opposes that, and we have to have a system of values that gives us direction and forward momentum against those systems. And I think to the extent that Bitcoin Maximalism can do that, it's like very useful. and again, that's why I said like earlier, I was really trying to peel out toxicity because I, I don't think toxicity is that. I, I, I do really believe that toxicity solves a core problem, you know? And the problem that toxicity solves is that we have to be able to protect Bitcoin from ourselves, right? At the end of the day But then toxic maximalism then kind of starts to become somewhat incoherent because, you know, again, they're just two very different goals. one of them solves, okay, how do we move forward and how do we oppose the forces that are against us? Like that's, that has to be maximalism, I think. Like, I don't know what else would be that. And then there's toxicity, which is, yeah, look, I-- it's an unsolvable paradox, you know, this idea that like any upgrade to Bitcoin is indistinguishable from an attack," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "42:15", "start": 2534.52, "text": "has a conversation around that, and that's what toxicity is. but then if you combine them, this is kind of where I get to the point where it's like, are they really compatible? Like, is toxic maximalism effective? Can it move us forward? And I almost think the question then is like, probably not, because they just do two different things. Like, one of them, again, has to oppose other forces, and the other one of them, it just opposes us, you know, at the end of the day. you know, that's, that was what tox I, I think toxicity is the greatest, one of the greatest things Bitcoin had ever achieved, and, you know, it's hilarious to me to see the Ethereum folks, you know, realize that toxicity is good, right? They're talking about their own user-activated soft fork, you know, when and why that might be necessary, though. So they're, they're also starting to understand that, you know, Bitcoiners just hit an existential problem before them, and they came up with a solution, and our solution, you know, actually works for them, which is, which is crazy, right? and that says a lot about why toxicity is good, but, again, like, are these-- we should be asking, like, are these compatible ideologies, I think." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:22", "start": 2601.94, "text": "I see. And also in your article, you talk about this idea, the commitment of building on Bitcoin, using Bitcoin where feasible. Now, that is also certainly, I've, I see that in, in the Bitcoin community or in communities that use Bitcoin. I think perhaps one question that might come up is, in cases where something can't be built on Bitcoin, does that- Then legitimate the creation of that shitcoin, right? Like, not that I'm-- again, I'm not making that argument, I'm just saying that's kind of the, that's the argument that we might hear. So how would you respond to that?" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "43:56", "start": 2636.35, "text": "Well, that's why I would go back to, you know, like one of them and the assumptions we have to make is like Bitcoin is only limited by our ingenuity, and I think, you know, that's why I think that I like crypto minimalism, because we have to accept that some of these things are achieving things that can't real services. The question then of like, will they ever exist on Bitcoin? That's always gonna be up to us, right? And I think that's where it becomes, you know, kind of a, a, like a positive way to frame it, where it's, you know, sure there might be ideas that, you know, how short is short term? Right? This is a good question, right? If Bitcoiners are so low time preference, you know, short term might be a hundred years. Like, there might be, you know, Monero or Zcash or some of" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "44:45", "start": 2685.44, "text": "They might be better than, if you want privacy, they might be better than Bitcoin for some period of time, and that could be, that could be decades, it could. You know, does that mean there's never gonna be a solution on Bitcoin? Like, does that mean like no point is anyone in the future ever going to figure out how to do that? I think the answer to that is also probably no, because, you know, again, we have to believe that, you know, if we are effective at creating more Bitcoiners and that we do create this culture that, you know, They'll find a solution, but it also gives us, I think, like a bit of humility and patience because, you know, look, there's, there isn't gonna be-- and I, I wrote this at the end of the piece, it's like, there's no amount of like anger and like, you know, frustration that we can have that's gonna remove all of these cryptocurrencies. There just isn't. They're, they're, they're just not all gonna go to zero, tomorrow. So then, you know, we have to do something with that frustration," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "45:43", "start": 2742.9, "text": "we In a positive direction, and that's why I view Bitcoin maximalism has to be directional. It has to be, it has to be effective at convincing people to do the best that they can for Bitcoin, you know, because some of these other things, like, you know, the holo culture or, you know, the, take on debt, buy Bitcoin culture, they're, they, they try to get you to like, you know, if you're putting your self-interest before Bitcoin, I have to wonder if you're a maximalist. I just do, and that, and All the things. Like if, like Bitcoin, if you're going to be a Bitcoin maximalist, Bitcoin should, in every case, you know, Bitcoin, whatever is Bitcoin maximalism, should be the best thing for Bitcoin. So I think like the most, one of the most controversial things I put in there at the end was like, you know, everyone should use Bitcoin. Like, and if you're a maximalist, you have to believe that, you have to believe that everybody can benefit from Bitcoin, you know? And that's, and that's everybody in the world." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "46:44", "start": 2803.78, "text": "and Should be aspirational, right? Like, there's a reason in Christianity that they have saints, you know, 'cause it's like so fucking hard to be, to be a saint, you know, it takes you like your whole life, and then you might die, and then, like, you know, or like even like in the United States, we have the Presidential Medal of Freedom, you know, it's like you were so American, you like lived up to our values to such a high extent, there's like a special medal that we give you. So I al-almost visit like Bitcoin maximal You know, you'll be up there and like, you know, they'll be like, \"You know, what a podcast! Here you go. You know, you, you, you know, effectively increased Bitcoin. here's your medal, and then that's it. You know, you're just like, \"No more. \"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:29", "start": 2849.21, "text": "You know? Right. one other idea. So politics is often the art of putting one principle against another, and in some cases, are there instances where some of these principles of maximalism or these guidelines of maximalism where they come into conflict? You know, this idea of keeping Bitcoin open and accessible for everybody, but on the other hand, it should be technological supremacy as well. And I think what happens is with the cryptography and the maths and the science and the computer, you know, the networking and everything of it, it just seems to come out that, okay, for example, confidential transactions doesn't seem like it would be feasible to put into Bitcoin today, given those other aspects of accessibility, verifiability, openness, et cetera. So how, how do you wrestle with With that aspect of it." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "48:16", "start": 2896.26, "text": "So you're talking about like the specifics of like the technical proposals, like so since we can't get something like that in today, like what do we do about it? Yeah, so as an" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:24", "start": 2903.63, "text": "example, there are people who want privacy in Bitcoin on chain, there are people who want, you know, various other things. Yeah, right, right, right. But they're not all feasible." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "48:32", "start": 2911.71, "text": "Well, I think we, like, you know, in trying to define Bitcoin maximalism, I was always struck and I, and I could never really reconcile this, right, is that" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "48:45", "start": 2924.52, "text": "Maximalism in the current Twitter culture is very divorced from, like, the developers who I watched, like, growing up, right? So I think I, I was for a while trying to kind of reconcile these contradictions. And I think, you know, one of the things that, that struck me is if you look at sort of Greg Maxwell or Andrew Poelstra or all the kind of the great, you know, Bitcoin developers, they were always interested in other ideas away from Bitcoin, full stop. They always were. You know, you look at when MimbleWimble came out, there was" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "49:15", "start": 2954.62, "text": "The developers in Bitcoin have talked about Monero, they've tried to understand its privacy tools. I mean, even Zcash, which comes from zk-SNARKs, there was a whole conversation about whether that applied to Bitcoin. Ultimately, Zcash, you know, essentially forked off and created their own coin, but that was a Bitcoin conversation. So, you know, again, I think that The modern Bitcoin maximalism, you know, way to handle this, you know, I, the whole thing about like, oh, like, don't be a shitcoiner, everyone's a shitcoiner, like, no one's a shitcoiner, you know, I had this conversation with Matt Odel where, you know, everyone that I talk to seems to have an exception. Like, you know, if we're, are against shitcoiners, if you're a shitcoiner for doing like one single thing against our values, like, well, then everyone I talk to has And privacy, Adam Back will still be interested in, you know, US dollar stablecoins and bringing them to liquid because he thinks they're an onboarding tool. Well, so then do we really have a culture that's, that, that actually is Shikoin the bre- best expression of our culture? And that's why I, I think crypto minimalism is better, because it suggests that like you as, you know, a maximalist, like you can still think something else would be best for Bitcoin, and you can still work on that and like have that," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "50:33", "start": 3032.9, "text": "fits the mental model, you know, like Peter McCormick can still think that, you know, bringing leftists to Bitcoin is, is great for Bitcoin, and, and he can work on that, and it's, and it's his way of kind of working within the set, right? So, you know, you-- I, and I think this is one of the things when I'm, we talked last about my Nick Carter piece, you know, I kind of said that like, you know, everyone seems to have- There, you know, who is a Bitcoin maximalist? Like, who does all the things? And there was often this kind of, you know, like intense debate around whether you hated shihtcoins or whether you were indifferent to them or like whether it mattered. And I think, you know, if there was something I hope I could contribute to the conversation is I think it doesn't. I think like the right way to look at this is not to constantly judge ourselves for like whether or not we've said or done the right things. We can't become a judgmental culture like that Where it's, is it better to do less bad or more good? Like, is it better to, you know, actively reduce the amount? I asked Jimmy Song this at the end of the conference, I was like, \"You know, tell me what it, what it is, \" because I think we've been-- we've become a culture that prioritizes doing less bad, and we've become a culture that venerates people merely because they don't do bad. Oh, well, why is he the best maximalist? Oh, he's never used Shikoin," }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "51:54", "start": 3113.99, "text": "he's Never uses an exchange, well, in the end, you, you never did anything at all. You've just never done anything. So how do we get people to do more good? Like, at what point can you do enough good to outweigh the bad, bad? And my fear is that we've become a culture that's like so insecure about its values that we've become so judgmental, and like, now we're sort of like, you know, this was the whole dumb thing around, like, you know, the whole Nick Carter episode where, you know, oh, well, you know, he Like, well, what's the, you know, I don't understand, like, what's, what's happening here? Like, what, what happened? Like, like, why is this-- why is our culture so concerned with judgments? and I think that's because we've kind of made Bitcoin maximalism this is like an impossible standard, that like no, no one in isolation like actually fits this like mythical description of like, you know, the perfect Bitcoin maximalist who's never shaked coins. And so then our conversation is all about, oh, well, Sampson did this and this And it's like, the fuck are you talking about? Like, why are you having this fucking discussion? It's totally pointless. we should have a common goal. The common goal should be re-- to reduce the amount of other cryptocurrencies there are and bring the useful stuff back to Bitcoin. I, I don't really care like who did what with like a token like two fucking years ago. It's like I'm a person of limited time. So, you know, again, that's like where the conversation breakdown like seems to happen. So, I'm, you know, I'm hoping this can" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "53:26", "start": 3206.18, "text": "Culture that, that prioritizes doing less bad, it's just like what, you know, you're, what are you gonna achieve in that culture? You're gonna achieve sort of like a, just imagine a world of, like in your head, like mentally, like imagine a world of people doing less bad. And in my head, I come up with, oh, you know, this guy goes to work at nine in the morning, gets to work on time, and goes home, and he tucks his kids in, you know, and then imagine a world where people are doing more good, And it's just a vastly different world. It's like, oh, okay, like maybe this guy's gonna like donate some people things to homeless, like on his way to work, and like maybe he's gonna, his coworker is like, you know, feeling bad about himself, so he's gonna spend some time doing that. And, oh, you know, you know, you just kind of go down the list, and it's just like they are two very different worlds. They just, they just, they seem to be. so I don't know, I'll" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:18", "start": 3258.22, "text": "leave people with that Merchants or helping grow the base of hodlers, like, what's, what's good in your view? Yeah, good is whatever is" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "54:30", "start": 3269.93, "text": "good for Bitcoin, right? I, and I think that we all get to interpret that, but I hope that these values speak to that, right? So I, you know, I put there that our goal should be to expand the economy, like that we, we should want to do that and we should push ourselves to do that, because again, if we make it a label, this is what has really infuriated-- as an outsider to the Bitcoin culture, the You can never say anything bad about him, 'cause he's a Bitcoiner. Therefore, everything that he does is good for Bitcoin, which is kind of an irrational view. It's, it's really just like, was the action that you took, that it was good for Bitcoin or not? And did you, and if, and could you have done something for Bitcoin, right? So, you know, I tend to use this framework personally to try to push myself. You know, I, you know, I do go to the grocery store, I spend three hundred dollars, I've never talked to that And this is what, you know, Mr. Hoddle, I was talking to him, you know, he was saying, \"Oh, well, I tried that, you know, and it didn't work, and, you know, those people didn't end up using Bitcoin.\" And I was like, \"Sure, that, that does nothing. That says nothing about whether your aspiration was valid.\" And if you stop pushing yourself, if you allow yourself to stagnate, if we allow our culture to kind of stagnate, then it will stagnate, right? Like, you have to, You know, again, the sort of like Twitter class, you know, again, like they, you know, we've created this culture of heroes, right? And again, like, we, we, we have to, even the people who are at that status, they need to be pushing forward. Like, can they do more? Like, you can always do more. It's hard, this should be hard. We're trying to do something that isn't possible. We're trying to meme this currency into the global reserve currency of the world. We're gonna face every degree of opposition, you know?" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "56:25", "start": 3384.62, "text": "I mean, I, you know, I tried to put everything in there that I, that I could think of. It seems like the conversation's been positive. some people have, you know, really said that I should have got-- 'cause it's kinda divided into like nine commitments that, that, that Bitcoin Maximalists have, and I guess I should have added a tenth, the religious faction really is upset at me 'cause I didn't add a tenth. I actually didn't really even see the thing when I was doing it, but yeah, look, I mean, we have" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "56:55", "start": 3414.58, "text": "As bad as fiat, you know, I was saying this the other day where it's, you know, we're really critical of the other cryptocurrencies 'cause they use all these fucking technical buzzwords, but we use social buzzwords like all the time. Like, you know, Shiba Coin is a social buzzword, it means nothing, in the same way that decentralization used by the Ethereum people like means absolutely nothing, you know, like they're just using a random buzzword. and I think we also need to fight against these in Bitcoin, like, let's get rid of these" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "57:25", "start": 3444.7, "text": "By that? When you say that? What is, what are you trying to say? and I think if we can get better at that, we can get better at, again, like speaking positively, otherwise we allow people to define ourselves. And I think that's what the other kind of anti-maximalists have been so effective at doing, is that they've, they've allowed the whole of the kind of crypto world and the financial world to kind of see Bitcoin in a negative light. They've, they've, in-- because we've kind of refused to define ourselves, they in turn" }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "57:56", "start": 3475.56, "text": "I don't think that's true. So, you know," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:58", "start": 3477.83, "text": "that's why I'm here. Yeah, right. So, yeah, I think it is important as well. I mean, it, it does come into that conversation about not accepting, let's say, the frame that somebody else gives you, but choosing your own. And I think that's an important thing, rather than just kind of letting other people decide, define who you are, define what your goals are. Well, no, like, you know, we all set our own goals and our own desires and aims. So In the show notes, it's over at Forbes. Of course, check out bitcoinmagazine dot com, follow Pete on Twitter at pete underscore rizzo underscore wow, and I think that's it." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "58:34", "start": 3514.13, "text": "Rememberized my Twitter handle, I love it. Yeah, man, enjoy the conference. I appreciate chatting and look, you know, it's great, it's great debate. I mean, I, hopefully we can continue it. I love the work that you've been doing on bitcoinmagazine dot com, you know, particularly the stuff around kind of credit lending and, and I'm not an expert in Austrian economics, never have been, but we need people from all different, different walks, so, you know, appreciate it, man. Fantastic." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:02", "start": 3542.11, "text": "Well, thanks, Pete." }, { "speaker": "pete_rizzo_of_bitcoin_magazine", "time": "59:03", "start": 3542.7, "text": "Chat soon." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:04", "start": 3543.6, "text": "Get the show notes at stephanlivera dot com slash four ten. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the Citadel." } ] }