{ "episodeId": "SLP418", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "nvk_of_coinkite": { "name": "NVK of Coinkite", "role": "guest", "tag": "NVK" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:06", "start": 6.16, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stefan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics, brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Now, for today's show, my guest is NvK, he's the co-founder and CEO of Coinkite. So he's rejoining me on the show to chat about a range of things, but primarily we talk about Tapsigner, which might just be Bitcoin hardware for the masses. So for those of you who aren't familiar, the Coldcard is well- Well known device amongst Bitcoin users, but it's probably fair to say that this isn't necessarily the device for the masses at least yet. The Tapsigner offers a new iteration in terms of user experience, given it has NFC. So we chat about this and the implications of this, as well as being at a vastly reduced price point compared to the Coldcard. So for those of you interested in Bitcoin mining, you've got to check out Brains dot com, that's b r a i i n s dot com. Now, the big news recently is that What used to be called Slush Pool is now called Brains Pool, so they are unifying the brand under the Brains umbrella. Now Slush Pool and Bitcoin dot cz was the first Bitcoin mining pool. They've been mining since, since two thousand and ten, and they have mined almost one point three million Bitcoin. Now they offer a range of features with Brains Pool. You, you have frequent and customizable payout timing, you have worker management and monitoring, you can get alerted about changes in your hash rate, and you can even do access management. There are APIs to share access to your pool. Pull account without fully compromising your security, and Brains also offer VIP support for large scale mining operations, so get in touch. Brains are working on a complete platform to give miners what they need, whether that's a mining pool, auto tuning firmware, farm monitoring and management, so go to brains dot com. My favorite Bitcoin hardware in the space is created by Coinkite dot com. They are the creators of the Coldcard MK4, which is the latest and greatest Bitcoin hardware wallet out there. It has two secure elements, it has NFC support. It has more RAM and CPU, making for faster signing of transactions, and it's a very versatile and reliable performer. I've used it personally in different contexts, and I find it a really excellent choice. You can use it easily with wallets like Sparrow Wallet or Specter Desktop and others. Now, CoinKite also make a range of products. They've got the TapSigner and the SatsCard. These are cheaper devices designed for the developing world, and the SatsCard, you can think of that like the new open dime. It's an easy way to hand around a smaller amount. of Bitcoin. Now, CoinKite also make metal backup seed products, such as the seed plate, which you can buy and use to backup your twelve or twenty-four word recovery phrase. So, to get all of this, go to CoinKite dot com, use code Laverre for a discount there. Now, the lead sponsor of this show is Swan Bitcoin, and the big news recently is Swan has acquired Specter Solutions. So, in other words, this is the team behind Specter Wallet and also the Specter DIY device. This is one of the well-known DIY multisig wallets, though of Or single signature wallets also. Now the cool thing here is Spectre is going to remain fully FOS, but it can also form part of the solution for Swan customers who want to self-custody and self-validate. And don't forget Pacific Bitcoin is coming. This is going to be an awesome Bitcoin only event, November tenth and eleventh in LA, California, with awesome Bitcoin is coming. Michael Saylor is coming in person. People like Lynn Alden, Pierre Rochard, Alex Epstein, Preston Pish, Jeff Booth, and many others. It'll be hosted by Peter McCormack, Natalie Bernier Mel and myself. There will be three tracks in terms of multiple stages going. There, there will be workshops and side events, and for premium ticket holders, there will be a VIP party. So I'm looking forward to seeing you there. Make sure you go and get your tickets over at pacificbitcoin dot com, use code livera for a discount there. And now onto the show with NVK. NVK, welcome back to the show. Hey man, thanks for having me. It's been a while. Yeah, it has. And I mean, there's so much always happening in this space, and funnily, just as literally, you know, twenty or thirty minutes ago, I got this. so for audio listeners, I'm just holding up the Block Clock Micro. So I just got the new one, which is fantastic, and as other visual listeners can see, I've got the Block Clock, mini in the background behind me. So, I'm excited to chat about that, and," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:20", "start": 259.51, "text": "I I see conversation is happening, so maybe we should chat a bit about that also. So, I, you know, I've had a chance now to play around with Tapsigner also, and Nunchuk, so that's really cool as well. So, maybe you wanna just give us a bit of an update what's going on with Tapsigner and NFC Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "04:37", "start": 277.23, "text": "Yeah, so- I think we announced this, was it early this year or late last year? I think about that time. Yeah. and, you know, we started shipping sort of like smaller batches for devs and through, throughout the, the year. And, we were sort of like helping the devs get NFC integrated and, you know, get the NFC sort of like understood because nobody was doing NFC. Haha. Kind of like PSBTs, right? Right. so, so like we were doing all this sort of like, Take work, right, to, to sort of educate and, teach people and sort of like help them code the NFC solutions and all that stuff. And, Hugo was the first to market with, Nunchuk. Nunchuk is, is this fantastic multi-sig wallet for people that don't know. it's cross-platform, and they've done a fantastic job, with the, with the TapSigner and cold card NFCs, I think coming out on the next release." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:36", "start": 336.49, "text": "Yeah, I think it's already out, actually." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "05:38", "start": 338.23, "text": "Yeah! But yeah, so but like backing up a bit, I mean, like this, the, the whole idea of this project really is to sort of like, okay, how can we make a truly affordable, like not just BS affordable, right? Like actually truly affordable, hardware wallet that like the whole world can have, right? For, for single sig or multi sig, that is also cheap to ship, and is concealable and is physically secure, right? You know, would you put a million dollars in it? Probably not, right? It's not the model, right? There's, it's not as secure as a cold card kind of thing. It is very, very resilient, it's, it's fairly, fairly secure. But you know, like if you want extra security, you can just use two with, multisig or something. But anyway, so, so that's the idea and, and we sort of managed to get this first sort of like few batches at, at the, like about forty bucks price point. And, Down to probably like nineteen, twenty-something bucks, as, as, as we scale this. we're, we're gonna be very aggressive on, on pricing on this. because, y-y-you know, Bitcoiners like us who live in the first world, y-y-you know, like have like a bit more money and, y-y-you know, like all this stuff seems like, you know, whatever. But when you're talking about like normies in North America, so your average sort of like, you know, boomer Or, or, or people outside of North America, I mean, y-y-you know, things that are sub thirty dollars are now very, very sort of like enticing, right? Like we hope that all these people can sort of like finally take the leap without feeling like there's risk or they're not gonna use it or whatever, and take on self custody, 'cause otherwise everybody's gonna be custodial. Yeah. I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:31", "start": 451.17, "text": "think- Yeah, I gotta say I'm bullish on this Tapsigner project and where it's going because I really do see it as opening up the market for- People who are newer and they're not willing to kind of shell out, you know, let's say you want the latest and greatest, you want the MK4, you know, you're paying about a hundred and forty-eight dollars for that, whereas if you're getting, you know, today as we speak, the tap sign is about forty dollars, and, you know, as you're saying, if it's coming down to in that twenty or thirty dollar range, now it's kind of like, that's the price people pay for an Uber or like a main at a restaurant, you know? It's very, it's fantastic, right? Like, because basically, it's very kind of, at least from what I've found playing around with it, you just basically tap it and you type in the pin code, and it basically, it's very self-explanatory, right? It just says, \"Oh, do you wanna spend? Okay, tap, and okay, now the transaction has been signed. And basically, in the background, there's all this stuff going on, but it's kind of, a lot of that has been abstracted away from the user, because I think the, For people, right? Because Bitcoin can be quite conceptual, right? You've got private keys, we have software wallets, we have our software devices, coordinating software, we have Bitcoin nodes, and all this stuff is out there, and it, it takes a lot to teach and explain that for people. but so I think this might be a really great next step. So for, for a lot of people, their first exposure might be Moon Wallet or some phone wallet, yeah, and then maybe this is their next step for a lot of people. You know," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "09:09", "start": 548.55, "text": "human Humans have been doing s-- like physical custody of things for as long as humans were around, right? So to, to take that away from people confuses people, right? I, I really think it's important to have the physical component, and the physical component also exponentially increases their security, right? Because realistically speaking, like, you know, most people will lose their BTC either to viruses on their computers Right? Or phones, especially on Android and, and shittier Android phones that are rooted by carriers in poorer countries. Or they will lose the stuff due to, you know, actual loss, right? Like they, they misplaced it, they lost their phone or whatever, or forgot the PIN or forgot the password, right? So giving them a card, they, they treat it with a little bit more respect than, than just like an app on their phone. I, I think just greatly- Creates the correct mindset, right? Like this is money, right? The money's in the card, even though it's not technically, you know, if I, if I don't lose this card, I have my money, right? And, and we went sort of like a, a step above of that, like we actually encourage nearly enforced backup. So what happens is when the user sets up the card, for example, on Nunchuk, he immediately asks, \"Do you want to back this up?\" And it's safe to back up Because the backup is encrypted, so you can just save it on your iCloud, on your phone or whatever, right? So in case you do have an issue that is saved, and to decrypt the backup, you still need like the code that's on the back of the card, right? So, so it, it does sort of like greatly improve your, your setup there. And you could write down the backup key somewhere in a piece of little paper and leave it in your office, right? Nobody can do anything with that backup key because it's not there. Actual" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:09", "start": 668.95, "text": "backup. I see. And so I guess as part of where this all goes, it may make sense to talk-- Well, let's firstly talk about who does it make sense for this, you know, who does it make sense to use? Like as I'm seeing it, it seems like people who are not in the first world and let's say they can't afford, you know, the, the higher level hardware devices, and potentially as part of a multisig. So even if you are in the first world, you might just want this as part of multisig, or potentially maybe the This is like a little day-to-day spending amount. So let's say you've got a smaller wallet, obviously the hardcore stuff, you know, that's where you're, we're using our cold card or multisig and passphrase and, you know, all that stuff. But for this kind of, let's say, day-to-day spending, maybe it makes sense to have a little NFC tap as well." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "11:56", "start": 716.29, "text": "Yeah. So, so there is like, this is extremely, it's like a broad reach product, right? Like, i-it's very flexible because all it does is, it, Right? So it doesn't care what kind of transaction it is, it doesn't care if it's multisig, single, it's just signed. That's why I call it TapSigner. and what's cool is that, so you can have people use it very simply, right? Just with their app, single sig, you know, the boomer now has some other medium that isn't just the app wallet, right? and then you have the affordability part, so people in developing world can do it, and they can maybe leave the card at home so they don't carry it With them, so they're not at, at risk of being robbed. And then you can do the multisig, and the multisig gets interesting because now this can be part of your true ultra paranoid crazy setup too, right? So you could have this, you know, against two other cold cards, for example, that are buried under mountains, right? But what's cool is that, like, you have a different vendor for the chip mixed in as well, so it's essentially-- I know it's the same company, but it's kind of multi-vendor, at least on the stack. Right? you're not depending on a single chip. We went further on this, right? We wanted to provide as much as we could from what we learned in Coldcard and, and what we learned about, trust-minimized things to the sort of like more economically incapable, societies where, you know, like, I w- I don't want people to trust that we are generating private keys for them with the secure, with the secure element, random generator, right? Right. So what we do is we, we ask the user to pick, a-- all of this in an extremely easy, abstracted, non-complicated way, you just press a button on the app. But what the app is doing, and it's not an app by us, so you're not trusting us, right? You're trusting two separate vendors to do this, is providing chain code as part of the entropy so that you're not trusting us either, right? So, so it does provide sort of like a higher level means of, of security, even though it has these compromises. so yeah, so, so then in, in use, you could have the paranoid, you can have the, the third world, you can have the, you know, for company multisigs, like, like enterprise, this thing is amazing. Enterprise have been doing smart cards for keys and for, and for, key shuffling for like decades, right? So you can have your CEO with a card, you can have your controller with a card Ifa card, you can have, you know, like Treasury Ifa card, and then, you know, you go in your nunchuck on your desktop wallet that's a little bit more capable in terms of like UI and stuff, you can coordinate the transactions all in crypto chat, right? And then you just tap to sign, and you know exactly which executive signed for what. it's pretty amazing. That's not even getting into using this for authentication, right? Because this thing can just sign messages too. So you could use this for authenticating into websites and, and apps and whatnot Whatever you want as devs sort of like see how it's better to use Bitcoin encryption versus something else, for authentication as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:17", "start": 917.04, "text": "Yeah, lots of possibilities there. So we'll just have to see where the market goes and what the uptake is. But I could also see this as like even at this price point, it's probably cheap enough that let's say if you're a, you know, you're an advocate, you're a bitcoiner, you're an educator, you're a promoter, you might buy a lot and give them to your family and friends, right? So maybe if Yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "15:39", "start": 939.06, "text": "Yeah. So, so we have like white labeling as part of the, of the product idea, right? So, you know, we want, Casa to have a Casa card, right? We want, y-y-you know, influencers or, or whoever, like, you know, educators to have a card with their brand on. We have a few already in, in sort of like in production so that, you know, you go to, you know, some Bitcoin meetup in your city and you trust those guys, right? Like, they're the people who are teaching you about seeds anyways You a card to start using, now, like, now you're not just like some guy with some app, right? Like, you actually have a hardware solution. I, it's just, it's just so cool to have something so cheap, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:20", "start": 980.04, "text": "Yeah, for sure. So I think probably, of course, we're dealing in a world of trade-offs here. Of course, it's not the same level of security, but I, I suppose, how does this compare with, say, airgapping, right? So this is part of the, you know, this has come up People ask the same questions that have been sort of discussed and, fought about years ago, but then sometimes the debate comes up again. So in that whole conversation around airgapping, where do you think this sits? Like, would you say a tap signer counts as an airgapped, device, or, or do you see it like NFC, you know, allows that sort of back and forth rounds of communication? How would you, so" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "17:02", "start": 1021.91, "text": "I, I, I would say that this is like At least a couple orders of magnitude better than USB in terms of security, right? Because, you know, the device isn't connected to something, it's very hard to-- a-and there is a secure element on this too, right? So, you know, this isn't the, the, the banana security of, of some devices out there, right? Like, this is still a very secure device. you know, but it does have, like, it is radio capable, essentially, right? So, you wanna keep it in your sleeve, you know, it comes with a little RFC, Blocking sleeve. And, you know, a lot of wallets nowadays, actual money wallets, have RF, blocking because of your credit card. So it's like, you know, everybody has nowadays like tap capable things in their pocket, so it's not like a huge deal. Another cool thing too is that there is a pin, right? So it's not like somebody can just tap or intercept the radio. It's very complicated equipment to try to, to get that, because you also it's near field, right? So you actually need to be very close, because the The phone and induction on the coil needs to be like, like millimeters away from it, right? So you have that. I am not very concerned about that, but, you know, when you're talking about, you know, tens of millions of dollars and you have like a super paranoid setup, that's a different story, right? Now, if you're just, you know, carrying around what you would have carried as a stack of cash in the wallet anyways, like who cares, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:30", "start": 1110.07, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. I think that all makes a lot of sense. and I think It might be interesting as well to chat a little bit about where the software is right now. So obviously we're early days in NFC Bitcoin, like it's literally, you know, less than a year old, right? It's probably less than six months old in terms of software support in the wallet. So obviously right now Nunchuck is one of the well-known wallets. I suppose what we're looking for here is to see other software wallets and applications, kind of start putting in support for this kind of thing. What's your hope there? Yeah. So it's" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "19:06", "start": 1145.96, "text": "already happening, it's just it's not public, but, but there is a lot of work being done, there is a few open source libraries now to integrate CKTap, which is the library that we created for this, and there is also the NFC work being done for Coldcard as well, which is a slightly different sort of protocol that we created. On the Coldcard is actually even more sort of like spec open kind of thing. It's just, it's just sort of like the initial uptake, right? Like the QR- Stuff for wallets took forever to happen, you know, PSBT took about, like, we pushed it for about a year before it sort of started to, to get, you know, this already moved faster, right? So like this one within like, you know, less than six months, like there is already like a proper quality wallet out in the market doing it, and they, and they actually open sourced the, the C++, NFC library that they built for this. So there is that too, there is the Python as well, and I believe there is a JavaScript one as well. I think, you know, probably in another month or two, we're gonna see a few more wallets announcing that they have NFC as well. There is also some more interesting larger companies also pushing NFC standard. There's a lot going on, but not in public yet. Of course. And, and, you know, it's easier that way sometimes to, to get things done. but as, as this thing grows, you We see also NFC on Lightning as well with LN URLs. So wallets are sort of like dabbling on that as well. you know, when it comes to phones, NFC is a given, right? Like, it, it's like, it's free, it's on the phone, it's already there. I, you know, it, it d- it reduces cost on the clients, right? So like on the card or whatever it's gonna be the NFC counterpart. so it doesn't need a screen to display QR, it doesn't need any of that stuff, and it's high bandwidth, right? So we can transfer a complex multisig transaction, you know, quickly, like nearly instant, really, to the phone, and back, where you can't do that with QRs. Like you, you need a new meter QR, they're finicky, it takes forever. So, it, it, you know, it, it really is a substantial improvement, so much so that, you know, you see companies like Square, you know, they're building on NFC, right? W-we think that that's a very good solution for that. And then, you know, maybe you see QRs for, you know, your more cold storage kind of solutions and other things." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:39", "start": 1298.76, "text": "Gotcha. And so, I think the use case there, definitely the NFC for phones, absolutely, I think Because nowadays basically any modern smartphone has NFC, so that's pretty given. What's the thought there for laptops and desktops? Like, is the user just gonna have to buy some kind of NFC reader, USB plug that to the laptop or the PC? Or what's your thinking there? Nobody's gonna buy it, you know, realistically" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "22:04", "start": 1324.1, "text": "speaking, it's silly. I think that as NFC technology with mainstream and like major consumer electronics sort of like spreads more, you will see Start seeing NFC laptops as well. I, I haven't seen, I'm sure there must be one or two out there, but I haven't seen anything interesting. But realistically speaking, the people who are seeking these solutions are phone first, right? So third world, developing world, like all these places are phone first. Most of these people don't have a computer anyways. they are on, you know, at Macs and a tablet or something. Those all have NFC, so I really think that, y-y-you know, NFC is for the phone solutions, y-y-you know, and then like for computers and desktop, we're looking at different sort of, you know, be- we can do better and different with, with computers. But, you know, but if they do integrate, that'll be great, because then you can co-sign, your more complex stuff on there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:05", "start": 1385.0, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah. So as an example, if you had, I mean, just as an example, like two of three or three of five. Where maybe one of the keys was a tap signer, but the other keys were, you know, cold card and others, then it might be difficult on the computer aspect of it, unless there's some kind of, paired app, right? So I guess in the case of Nunchuk, you can have a mobile wallet, and I think if you got-- if you have a Nunchuk account, that might, maybe that can kind of help you deal with that across, like, when you're straddling across like one part that's on the computer and another part that's on the, Be to do it all off the phone, right? So if, you know, Coldcard has NFC, and then you could, like, kind of do it together, like where you have like one, one, one piece here, one piece there, one piece in another, let's say in the future, other hardware wallets get, or hardware devices get, Bitcoin hardware devices, to be clear, get NFC support, then you, then you kind of manage it all off the phone first, anyway." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "24:03", "start": 1443.28, "text": "Yeah, I mean, and we're pushing this from different angles too, right? So Coldcard Essentially the OpenDime replacement, and, and OpenDime has like an incredible market penetration, like, you know, like pretty much all Bitcoiners have it. so we hope that, that happens to SatsCard as well. And then because the market is gonna have a lot of SatsCard, it's also gonna incentivize wallets to, to integrate," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:31", "start": 1471.0, "text": "right? To support it and so on. Exactly. Yeah, right. So, yeah, so we'll see. I, I'm, I'm hopeful. I, I'm bullish on it. I think there's gonna be That's people in the developing world and, I think it's just because you're coming in at an extremely low price point compared to other wallets. Now, of course, the security is different, but, you know, I think, I think it'll, it'll definitely be part of the conversation. So, yeah, so I guess that, that's, that's probably the tap signer conversation. Yeah, well, I guess let's just chat a little bit about, kind of where the Sats card is at as well. So, in terms of how this one Right? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "25:12", "start": 1511.97, "text": "so, so it's actually even simpler, right? The, the Sats card, we wanted to be like the truly stupid simple UX, right? So if you tap it with your phone, without any app, okay, it just pops up on the browser. We double-checked that the card is actually a card, a cold card that Coinkite made, right? So, so there's a certificate there that we check in our servers, and then it gives you an address for you to deposit, and that's it. It's like, there's, you don't need" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:42", "start": 1541.83, "text": "Gotcha, yeah. So that's the deposit case, and then the withdrawal case is the, as an example, non-tap and tap, tap to spend and stuff." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "25:49", "start": 1549.19, "text": "Exactly. Then, then you tap and then you give the PIN and then it lets you sweep the key. But what's cool is, unlike OpenDime, this one actually has ten slots, so we can actually reuse it ten times. Heck, you could even unseal and sweep the ten keys at the same time as a single transaction out." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:06", "start": 1565.92, "text": "Gotcha. And so this might be handy as well for people, i, as Bitcoiners like to give this as a wedding gift or open-dice as a wedding gift. So maybe this is, you know, you can easily slip that one into the wedding gift card or the birthday card or whatever, and it's, it's very easily giftable. And so the price range for this one is even cheaper, right? This is, was it like six or seven dollars per card, something like that? Yeah, I" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "26:29", "start": 1589.18, "text": "think, I think right now it's like, like on launch" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:35", "start": 1595.22, "text": "sale at like seven ninety-nine or six ninety-nine, something like that. Gotcha. Yeah, People as well, like, we're an artist, right?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "26:43", "start": 1603.43, "text": "Yeah. We wanna, we wanna support artists too, right? So, so it's, it's kind of fun to, to have like art in it and it's collectible. It's very like, it, it, you know, like, you sort of have some, some play and some fun with the Bitcoin scarcity, right? Because people, like, a lot of Bitcoiners love to collect stuff too. So we figured we make this into" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:02", "start": 1621.96, "text": "something like that. Yeah. So it's perfect for giveaways and really makes a lot" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "27:11", "start": 1631.19, "text": "Because, you know, we've, we've been talking a lot with like, people in the African continent that want to essentially get large batches of this, denominate it, a-and then use it as like being essentially like the mint there, right? So, because I don't know if people know this, but a lot of African countries, actually use, money printed in France, and the French have a signature on it. It's like, it's like, it's like a world of, like- Like, like bullshit, right? So, so there is a lot of guys there trying to find physical solutions that need to be affordable, right? like in terms of like the actual device to sort of fulfill some of that, at least for the higher value bills, right? So, so we're trying to experiment with that, in some of those places. it's always been the dream of OpenDime, but OpenDime was too, too expensive. So we think with this, maybe we, we start to get closer to, to, to the idea, you Personally, like I've used it to buy stuff from people, right? 'Cause I don't wanna wait for you to, like, you know, I bought a piece of art, that wasn't cheap, and I didn't wanna sort of like, you know, send money in front of the compu-- like, in front of the person on the phone and like, no, which e-txos I'm using, whatever, right? Like, no, I just have a stack of this, right? And they're all like, denominated to be higher, right? It's like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:41", "start": 1721.25, "text": "Bitcoin security, or have you left your coins on an exchange somewhere? Don't do this. Learn how to secure your coins in your own self custody, and Unchained Capital can help you with this, and they can help you upgrade to multi-signature also. So even if you're on a single signature setup, you might consider going to multi-signature to remove single points of failure. Now, Unchained Capital can help you, their setup is called a two-of-three multi-signature setup. You hold two keys in different locations, and they hold one. Now, they can set you up on this Concierge onboarding program, where they will ship you the hardware if you need it, and they will do a video call with you to set you up and help you withdraw from an exchange or out of your single signature hardware wallet into your multi-signature vault. So this is a great way, if you've been dragging your feet on this, it's time for everybody to improve our Bitcoin security. Go to multi-signature, go to unchained dot com slash concierge, use code Livera for a discount there. Are you using a plain old block explorer? Mempool dot space is the Bitcoin explorer Bitcoin's fully fledged multi-layer ecosystem. Now, the drama of the last week or so was the left to right or right to left. Well, mempool dot space are giving you the choice. You can now view the blocks whether, whether you wanna see them left to right or right to left. Now, mempool dot space also have a lightning network explorer, and I find this really handy if you wanna search a lightning node and see their channels, even see the transactions that relate to the on-chain channel open and channel close, you can do all this on mempool dot space. And you don't even have to trust a third party. This is free and open source, you can host it yourself. Now, if you're an enterprise customer, Mempool.Space offers customized mempool instances with your company's branding, increased APR limits, and more. Go learn more at mempool.space/enterprise. Now, back to the show. Gotcha. Yeah. And then, as an example in that scenario, they could, tap-- they could hold it to their phone, and then see the address, and they could see, \"Oh, okay, let's say a hundred dollars or whatever has been sent to this card that's sitting on the address.\" And at that point, they can be like, \"Okay, I've got the hundred dollars or whatever, and then walk off, you know?\"" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "30:50", "start": 1850.17, "text": "Yeah, maybe a lot of the new Bitcoiners weren't around for the years where we did all this with paper wallets." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "31:00", "start": 1860.4, "text": "The private key because it was shared by both, right? But back in the day, we used to just print paper wallets and give it to people. That, that was sort of like the Bitcoiner way of giving BTC." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:12", "start": 1871.73, "text": "And, and it's like nowadays, paper wallets are just universally discouraged. Yes. That's correct. But of course, back in those days, you know, you know, Coldcard can still generate paper wallets as PDFs. It's kind of fun. Right? Yeah. I think it's in one of the advanced menus. I think I've seen that. It's very deep" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:30", "start": 1890.12, "text": "Okay, and so, let's chat a little bit about the MK4. So, what's been, you know, the latest there and what can we expect to see coming?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "31:39", "start": 1899.01, "text": "So, so like MK4 is like now like really sort of moving, which is kind of fun to see. people, people really like the, the, the plastic upgrade on the design and, you know, there's the sleeve and it's USB-C. So, so like it really sort of like hit the spot in terms of the things that people wanted to see upgraded. We Users using that as their also mining wallet because now they can make like very large transactions, which was not possible before, and I think it wasn't possible with any other" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:10", "start": 1930.09, "text": "wallet before. Right. just to clarify here, so what we're talking about here is if you're using a transaction that has a lot of UTXOs in it, and yes, theoretically that means the transaction is very large in terms of size, and then some people have noticed, difficulty either doing large multisig or just a lot of outputs, a lot of UTXOs going into that transaction, meaning- It's difficult to sign on a hardware device. So what we're talking about here is basically with this device, it's got a faster CPU, it's got more RAM, so it can, it can handle it basically." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "32:39", "start": 1958.75, "text": "Exactly. And, and that was true also for multisig, as you, as you mentioned, there was a huge bottleneck for some people doing, especially like, like business, like, you know, your corporate" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:50", "start": 1970.35, "text": "sort of wallet. Gotcha. Yeah. So as I understand then, basically let's say you've got a business, you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:00", "start": 1980.16, "text": "When you're trying to spend, naturally the transactions might be quite large also, and so it can be impractical if you don't have a wallet that can handle it basically. And then same for the miners, right? Because they're, if they're getting payouts, each of those payouts can be relatively small, but they need to be able to consolidate them to do stuff with it." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "33:16", "start": 1996.17, "text": "Yeah, and we heard this from the, the, the collaborative multisig solutions like Unchain, right? Like some of their users did have like a lot of UTXOs and, and, you know, and they were Devices. We wanted to, to sort of like really not be the bottleneck anymore, right? So now, like, it doesn't matter this has transaction, we, we can sign it. the, the max transaction of the network is still below our threshold, so we're fine. And, you know, and then there is the virtual disk. So we brought in a whole new sort of like slew of new users that wanted to, to have like a, a very sort of like plug-and-play kind of a way of doing things, so they're doing that now. And, We have a lot of like new features coming in the next firmware upgrade, we're sort of like fixing a little, a few little things, we're doing like, like menu wraparounds that people wanted, and we, we have two things we're working on. They're, I don't know if they're gonna make it in the next one, one of them might, might just take another couple kind of thing, but, we're working on, ephemeral seeds. So if you wanna load a temporary seed in there, you can. We Or whatever, we don't want them loading those seeds on a computer to help them sort of transfer or whatever. So you're gonna be able to just type in that seed into a cold card, a temporary thing, right? Do the business you have to do, and then the cold card forgets it, right? But because we have secure elements and all this stuff, we can sort of like do a little bit, a, a better provable way of showing that things were sort of like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:53", "start": 2092.96, "text": "properly erased. Gotcha. Yeah. So just talking that through for listeners who are new, what we're talking about As twelve or twenty-four words, and rather than type that into a hot online connected computer, which is a bit of a no-no from a security point of view, the advice generally is, has been to type it into a hardware wallet. But then the question is, if unless you've got spare hardware wallets It's, or it's, or it can be expensive doing that. So this is, I guess, this feature is for that use case where, as an example, you have this sort of, you might, you, the stacker, the pleb, the hodler, might already have your cold card, and you can maybe use that as a feature to help your family member not have to type it into a computer online, connected with potentially a lot of coin, and putting themselves at risk. So this is a way there." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "35:40", "start": 2139.62, "text": "You know, sometimes you just have like seeds, you have to, you So you can just, you, you know, put it in, export a Electrum file or, or Sparrow file, right? Put it on the computer and then erase the seed and then it's gone, right? And then, you know, you just rely on your metal backup and stuff. so, you know, I, I, I feel like it's sort of like a very useful thing for like familial sort of kind of relationships or uncle Jim kind of relationships. and, and we already support the Bip eighty five seeds as well. So we figured, hey, you know, Or temporary seeds with the B35 might as well sort of let people generate even, temporary seeds. Gotcha. So that feature will be called ephemeral seeds, is it?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:26", "start": 2186.23, "text": "Yes. Gotcha. I," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "36:27", "start": 2187.45, "text": "I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:28", "start": 2187.51, "text": "couldn't find a better name. Yeah, I mean, some of, some of this stuff is a little technical, right? But that said, like if you're already a u-- coldcard user, chances are you are trying to learn a bit more anyway, and so, you know, you can sort of deal with learning a little bit and dealing with a little bit of the figure things out. Yeah, realistically," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "36:49", "start": 2208.97, "text": "that's, yeah, that's the scenario. and then the other thing that we're working on is integrating Schnorr signing. So, you know, it's still sort of like, you know, we're still in the phase of Schnorr that's like, sort of like more hype, right? In the community, everybody wants it, everybody's, it's, finds it cool, but nobody uses it, right? And there is no sort of like major advantage to it aside from saving a little bit in fees, but fees right now are near" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "37:16", "start": 2236.38, "text": "Neglected. So we're working on, on adding that. I think we just made a PR to libngu, which is like glue for the actual, like crypto library, from core libseck. So we're sort of like just, you know, progressing because for us is a little bit different than other hardware wallets. We don't sort of YOLO transactions. Y- you know, transactions on cold card, they, they are, sanity checked, and, and they have like a little bit more script- Before the device signs it, it, it checks that the address, you know, the deposit addresses are yours, sorry, the, the change addresses are yours, it changes for a fee size relative to, to transaction size. So there's a lot of checks that happen, and all those checks break if you change fundamental parts of transactions, right? So we have to essentially rebuild all those checks and all those things. So i-it's substantially more work." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:12", "start": 2291.96, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah. And so, and that, that will get more complicated as all these more- Fancy advanced scripting and things come to Bitcoin, and I know even with like trying to do Schnorr as well, as I understand, like, I guess speaking cynically, it may be the case that a lot of people choose to just keep using, the common multi-sig types today as opposed to switching to like multi-sig 2, because multi-sig 2 might, like, let's say once we do have that, it might be a bit more complex and involve a lot of rounds of back and forth, right? So we'll sort of see what happens. That's" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "38:48", "start": 2327.52, "text": "to the cold card is that you can be interactive over NFC, while you can't do that with, with QRs, right? Gotcha. so if you wanna be really cold, you know, go with the, go with SD card, you know, we can still display QRs on the cold card screen, you know, who knows, maybe in the future there is both camera and NFC on a cold card, right? I'm not opposed to anything, but I'm just sort of like trying to think, like, cost effectively, what can we do And they need to be economically reasonable too, right? you know, it's, it's sort of like, it's easy to make a four hundred dollar hardware wallet, right? like, now making a hardware wallet that's like, you know, a hundred and fifty bucks, like that, that's like a lot more challenging. and that's sort of like where we want to really" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:34", "start": 2374.16, "text": "sort of like focus for now. Yeah, right. Because the, the approach that you see with some people is, you know, it, it almost looks like using an Android phone," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:46", "start": 2386.32, "text": "Like using an Android phone as a wallet. Yeah, and that's a problem" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "39:49", "start": 2389.39, "text": "too, right? Because you lose all the security, right? I mean, you know, now in order to maintain the price point, like you're using, like, you know, a Chinese secure element and, you know, you're, you're, you have a complex screen that's like full of holes, and then you have like Android. Android is, you know, like a whole other millions and millions of lines of code, right? You can't audit that. So, you know, you, you gotta do the" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "40:16", "start": 2416.3, "text": "You know, sure, if you wanna put your, you know, shit coins, they're gonna go to zero anyways in one of those things. It's fantastic, right? I mean, they, they are very good user experiences, you have to give it to them, right? But I, I think it's important to sort of like, you know, keep Bitcoin secure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:30", "start": 2429.73, "text": "Right. Yeah. And it's about, you know, finding that right balance, I think. It's, it's, it sort of reminds me, I mean, people talk about like, well, it's like Outright, like lowest cost or, you know, et cetera, right? Or having the most features or having, you're, you're sort of trying to find that right balance. And I think, I think that approach makes a lot of sense to me and, so yeah, I like that. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "40:58", "start": 2458.35, "text": "it's kinda funny, right? Like we, we use that sort of like low type preference mentality too, right? I'm not gonna like package this thing in a ten, twenty dollar box, right? Just because the box is pretty. I mean, the box goes to the" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "41:16", "start": 2476.32, "text": "Components that increases the value of the device by ten, twenty dollars, right? Like, then, then sort of like, you know, doing silly things, right? we do have a very expensive bag, you know, like, it's like that bag isn't cheap because it's actually like, it's very similar to airport, booze bags, or like, like TSA bags that they have in airports, like, you know, it's like a level four tape in there. But yeah, but that, that's the idea. It's like, how can I deliver value as" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:46", "start": 2506.36, "text": "And I think there's a big segmen- segment of the market who just love that anyway, right? Like they're all about that, and I think that's kind of like a very Bitcoin thing anyway, is to sort of not be, right? It's almost like in Bitcoin culture, it's almost anti-buying a Lambo, right? Like it's anti-- That's right. You're not meant to buy a Lambo, you're meant to buy, you know, a family van to fit all your kids in there. That's kind of it. Toyotas, man. Toy" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "42:17", "start": 2536.9, "text": "I'm already overtaking you in the charts. I'm even over Peter MacKorner now in England. no, it's a joke. so yeah, so we, you know, I, I, I got really sick from hearing, shitcoiners saying that nothing happens in Bitcoin. so, so, you know, I created a Bitcoin dot review. That's, that's the domain. I had the domain. There's a nice little site there. And, and the idea is we will- I always have gas, more than one. so, so, Matt and Justin, came, came quite a few times. I had the Pierre and the Bits team. A-and then I had one episode that I tested, it was kind of fun, where we had like a, a wallet roundtable with actual security experts, not like a bunch of larpers. Right. I listened to that. That was a good one. Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, and we will go through the software update list for like, you know, and discuss projects and, Talking about for like two and a half hours kind of thing. So a-and it comes out like every two, three weeks, I figure like, you know, I pack it in, you know, and sort of like deliver sort of like very high signal, you know, we have a little bit of banter in there, so, we fail at being boring, but, yeah, no, i-it's a lot of fun, a-and, a-and like, a-and it just like helps me see what's going on in the space as well. There's just yeah, I think we have what, like, six episodes, seven episodes now. So, people should definitely check it out. Yeah, for sure. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:51", "start": 2631.35, "text": "so, yeah, do you want to," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "43:53", "start": 2632.81, "text": "sorry?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:54", "start": 2633.65, "text": "You're gonna have to come on. Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. Of course, of course I'll come on. You're gonna have to come on. You're gonna have to come on. Yeah, right. And offer some commentary and, you know, it'll be good. That's right. Yeah. so yeah, tell us, But," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "44:15", "start": 2654.99, "text": "yeah. So, so, so that was born out of, okay, we are in a, in a, in a bear market. It wasn't bear market yet, but, you know, it, it looked like it was going to dunk anyways. So we were trying to find a way to make, like a, a Blocklok mini, like, like alternative version that, that was affordable, right? I mean, like, you know, the mini is still four hundred bucks, right? Which is a lot better than the five thousand. Dollars of the original clock, right? So what we did is we, we tried to leverage the same parts, right? So we're using the same display, just turn horizontal, it's just one display. we learned a bunch of things, and, you know, it only has one acrylic on the front, but like it looks like really pretty. It's like, it's still heavy, so like, you know, it's got that quality look, right? We still use like expensive gold on the PCB, it's like three microns, as opposed And, and it's got a beeper as well, which is kind of fun. the, the functions for the beeper are still not in the UI, but they'll be soon. it's USB-C, and, it's, it's still WiFi, it's the same, it's the same brains, it's the, it's the mini and stuff, but we managed to get it down to like sub two hundred dollars, and, we pre-sold a ton of these. yeah, I mean, I, I We started shipping now, and, yeah, but it's still sort of like, if you wanna get in line, do the, the reservation thing, because like, it's, it's kind of out of control." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:52", "start": 2752.49, "text": "Yeah, right. And, so I, I think there's big things coming, right? Because with the, Block Clock, mini, there was, there was also memes. Obviously, that was where the Sat-- the Moscow Time meme came. Jack Dorsey had it in the background of his, I think it was some congressional appearance." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:13", "start": 2773.47, "text": "When he went on a show as well. So it's like, it's like crazy how, you know, who's got these things. It's gonna happen," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "46:19", "start": 2779.25, "text": "yeah. It, it's, it's, it's kinda fascinating. It's also fascinating to some of the people that reach out to us, like that, like we can't really talk about, that like have these clocks. Like, it, it's kinda hilarious. I think eventually we'll leak that, like, you know, these people are gonna be taking a picture or something and then it shows on the back and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:36", "start": 2795.9, "text": "they're That's cool. And then, yeah, also, you've got a bunch of websites that are, you know, out there, that kind of obviously help, you know, show, point people back to Coinkite and, you know, to buy cold cards and things. but I've seen one, you've got, you, you, you've got, some different ones around treasuries as well. Yeah, so, so" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "47:02", "start": 2821.98, "text": "Bitcoin treasuries like kind of like- Really got big, last year. and then, and then, we ended up selling the domain. And then, like, you know, like the, the folks that, that bought it, like, didn't want to sort of carry on the project as was. So, you know, and, you know, there, there was a whole conversation about it. So we, we relaunched as dot net. So, so it's Bitcoin Treasuries dot net. And, you know, this project is like sort of like too important for, for P" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "47:35", "start": 2854.64, "text": "I've just redid the site, now it's properly like data driven, it's got like beautiful charts on it, and very soon, probably a week or two, I hope, we're gonna have a means for you to create an account and contribute data, help clean up the data, contribute data. I've been talking to the Glassnode guys as well to maybe get some of those, Shikoin wrapped Bitcoin values and contracts also listed. There, 'cause I, I'm, what I really wanna do is like, I wanna have a place where I have like a picture of what's going on with like institutional or large, holders. So, so yeah, so I'm, I'm trying to sort of get that all in one place, but I want people to sort of contribute the data too, right? and we should have like APIs for people to use it as well, to use the data, and yeah, so, so that, that project is coming along nice," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:32", "start": 2911.92, "text": "it's I think having the leaderboard aspect is cool because then people are competing, 'cause they, they wanna get higher up on the le- on the leaderboard. And yeah, it's interesting because, I mean, as I glance at the list now, obviously MicroStrategy are up at the top, they've got point six one nine percent of the overall twenty-one million, and I, I suppose there are always gonna be these questions about accuracy as well, right? Because so how do you sort of, tread that line of, let's say, wanting to be a complete list? But then also not wanting to put up inaccurate listings or if people just say they've got, I mean, people can just say they've got two percent of the supply, but who's gonna believe that," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "49:13", "start": 2953.31, "text": "right? Yeah. So, so for public companies, it's kind of easy, right? Because they have reporting requirements, so we go look at the actual filings. I mean, listen, they could be lying on the filings, but then they go to jail for," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "49:28", "start": 2967.56, "text": "and, I, I feel like all the, the bigger, more meaningful actors there are sort of like They kind of resolve themselves because they are public companies, they, you know, they're not gonna go to jail because of this, so they try to be a little bit more honest about it. You know, God knows it could be fake Bitcoin that they have on the balance sheet too, right? They could claim that it's Bitcoin, but it's actually like, I don't know, some other synthetic Bitcoin product or whatever, right? So we don't have a way of going above that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:54", "start": 2994.48, "text": "Or they could even get wrecked or rug pulled, right? Like if they're not securing their own coins" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "50:03", "start": 3003.28, "text": "and Their numbers are fake because they're also like much smaller numbers on the list, right? So they're not as economically relevant either. So I, I, I kind of like in a way, I kind of feel like it resolves itself. by just sort of like big economical actors have more to lose with fake numbers, and smaller economical actors are more economically relevant, right? Yeah. And, and now with this new way for people to submit data and help curate the data that I have coming, it, it should help with the quality too, because now we can have more scrutiny even on the data sort of like input, right? Because I make mistakes, right? So I want other people who, who have spent a lot of time with this stuff to, to help contribute and sort of like clean up the data and stuff." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:44", "start": 3043.71, "text": "Yeah. Talking generally public companies, public entities, we're not really talking about individual hodlers here like Michael Saylor's however many thousand coins he has." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "50:55", "start": 3055.08, "text": "I would never have people listed, I don't like that idea. There is something deeply wrong about like sort of do- doxing or even if the person is self-doxed, but like, I don't know, it just, it just rubs me the wrong way to have people," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:08", "start": 3067.79, "text": "yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "51:08", "start": 3068.37, "text": "Maybe if they were politicians, I don't mind. But, but yeah, so, so right now you ha- the bar is you or you have to be like have some notoriety, right? Like, say, like a state actor or something like that, or you have to be, say, a private company above a certain, you know, like say, fifty million dollars revenue per year or something, right? However, is I have the capability of having like user input and user help curating the data, we can lower the threshold because now we have more people looking for data and trying to sort of like clean it up. So, because ideally I wanna have like tahinis in there, right? That's the And I get all the way down, yeah, to like a small business, right? I think that would be a lot of fun, and, and you know, and this is very clear, this isn't a trading instrument, right? Like you shouldn't be using this as your, as part of your trading charts, right? This is a fun thing, this is a popular culture thing, this is, this is for us to sort of like help the pampanomics and have, you know, CEOs of companies measuring, you know, their shoe size," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "52:15", "start": 3135.07, "text": "and To each" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:16", "start": 3136.07, "text": "other. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think it'll be interesting to see, what happens with that and, obviously, you know, we're, we're going in a bit of a bear market and sometimes you need a bit of fun, bit of memes to kind of keep people going and then sooner or later, and again, none of us has a crystal ball, none of us knows, but you know, eventually the cycle turns and then, you know, we're back again. So, I think that's kind of where it's at. let's say this bear cycle. Oh man, it's such a" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "52:49", "start": 3169.01, "text": "weird one with all this like, gag macro thing. I, I mean, like, I, I think, I think what's one amazing thing that's happening this year is that like, I think mainstream is starting to realize how idiotic central banking is. They, they can cause inflation, but they can't fix inflation, a-and they can cause interest rate pain and not accomplish anything with that, right? It's kind of fascinating. I think people are starting to realize, including the Fed, that like they can't taper a Ponzi, like math doesn't work that way. So if you try to, to taper a Ponzi, what happens is it breaks, right? Like you, you need new, fresh sucker money coming in, if that's from the printer or from the suckers, to sort of pay off the other people that came in before, right? So, so the Ponzi nomics that, that is central banking now Now it's, it's starting to really break, right? So it's gonna be very interesting if, if you know, the, the, the meme of the, of, you know, the printer is coming, sort of like turns out to be, to be a reality. I, I think, I think things are gonna get worse than people think, but not as bad as the doomers think. I, I think The world, this is something that I think Bitcoiners miss, generally speaking about economics, is that the world has a lot of inertia. There's eight billion people in the world, right? So, y-y-you know, there is a, a big incentive to fix the status quo, just, just an innate- Sort of like inertia-based incentive to sort of like improve the status quo, right? Because everybody depends on that. So everybody wants to believe that, and, you know, money, modern money is based on belief, not on math, right? So if everybody just believe it, you can kind of make it happen in a way, right? You know, you're pushing for later, you could still have the bottom drop, you can still-- 'cause you're, you're on a tightrope, right? But, but I think it's, it's very possible that these guys managed to sort of like, you know, steer this in a way that like they push another, another twenty years, another ten, twenty years, for this thing to, to have to be dealt again. if, if they sort of probably pivot soon. If they don't, then, man, this shit's gonna just like pop." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:15", "start": 3314.83, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I think this is one of those things where a lot of people want things to happen quickly, but the reality is it's gonna I think it's important to just be patient, and to, you know, keep stacking, keep building, keep doing things that are moving the ball forward from a Bitcoin point of view. So on that side, what are you looking forward to? What are you hoping to see in terms of Bitcoin and like technology or culture around Bitcoin? I think we need to get back to more" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "55:42", "start": 3341.99, "text": "toxicity. The toxicity decrease, the, all the scams increase, right? I think it's important that people use cast iron pans, to make their steaks because- Stainless steel is a shit coin, and we finally found out that Safedine is a stainless steel shitcoiner. It's a shit panel, the shit paneler. No, but in all seriousness, I, I think, I think what's happening in this cycle that was not true in previous cycles, is the amount of capital flowing into Bitcoin companies to build while in a bear, there is a lot of that going on, and it's actually quite surprising, and, and it's probably the reason why the price has held, you know? So, so, well, between quotes. I mean, if it wasn't for the three AC guys, Bitcoin would have probably crashed to twenty-something, like, you know, twenty-five and then stayed at twenty-eight forever, right? Until the next, boom. But those guys knocked down an extra ten K in Bitcoin. But it's surprising that it stayed at this sort of like nineteen level this far, even with, you know, this insanity going on in the world. So I think it's because there is all this capital going into Bitcoin companies. I think Bitcoin companies are being, you know So they're still selling, so they are buying Bitcoin. Miners aren't selling as much Bitcoin as they need because they are finding outside capital to come in. And, you know, and all this building is, is great. I, I, you know, my, my sort of my wants are more like, you know, I wanna see more sort of like- For normie wallets, like wallet apps, trying different things. I wanna, I wanna see, you know More, more products that aren't sort of like pie in the sky economics, I, I wanna see like things that are like, you know, people pay money for, as opposed to just sort of like hope to profit later or so, but I think a lot of, like, that's the good thing about bear markets too, is that it forces companies to find profit. So yeah, but, but I, it, it's, this space is quite incredible. I mean, the, the amount of stuff that's happening right now, it's almost weird. It doesn't feel like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:53", "start": 3472.7, "text": "The bear markets are progressively becoming less cold, or the winter, the, you know, the bear, the Bitcoin winters are becoming less cold because there's just more people in, in the ecosystem either building, educating, doing something, you know, making a business. so yeah, but I definitely agree with you. I like your critique about, 'cause Sometimes we see like VC subsidized model, right? And, you know, we, we don't really want that in Bitcoin. We want, like, we want like actual workable models. Yeah. Produce value, sell for money," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "58:22", "start": 3502.07, "text": "you know, like it's not that complicated." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:24", "start": 3504.37, "text": "Right. Yeah. Sustainability, profitability are important metrics for everyone. So, yeah, I think those are probably good points for people to think about. yeah, so listeners check out coinkite dot com, follow N V K, so it's at N V K on Twitter, and," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:42", "start": 3522.29, "text": "Remember, if you're enjoying the show, I'd really appreciate if you leave a review and share it with your family and friends. Get the show notes at stephanelivera dot com. Thanks, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }