{ "episodeId": "SLP419", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "matthew_mcclintock": { "name": "Matthew McClintock", "role": "guest", "tag": "MATTHEW" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.47, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today my guest is Matthew McClintock from Bespoke Services. He joins me to chat about ultra high net worth Bitcoin strategies. We talk about what kind of wealth qualifies here and what are the concerns of Bitcoin affluent families, what kind of structures can they use, what are some of the benefits, what are some of the trade-offs? As well as a bit of discussion about how the sovereign individual thesis may end up playing out, as well as some discussion on whether it's better to stay outside of these structures. This show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, and the big event coming up is Pacific Bitcoin. This is on November 10th and 11th in LA, California. So there's going to be an awesome lineup of Bitcoiners there. Michael Saylor is attending in person. There'll be a range of other people, people like Lynn Alden, Pierre Rochard, Alex Epstein, Preston Pish, Jeff Booth, There'll be three tracks in terms of multiple stages going. I'll be one of the hosts along with Peter McCormack and Natalie Brunell. There'll be workshops and side events, and for premium ticket holders, there will be a VIP party. So this may be the event of the year. So make sure you check it out. That website is PacificBitcoin dot com. Get together with some friends, pull together, and I'm sure it'll be a great time. And use code Livera for a discount on your tickets. That's November 10th and 11th in LA, California." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:30", "start": 90.1, "text": "Is the place to go for Bitcoin hardware security. They offer the Coldcard, the latest version is the MK4, which has two secure elements, it's got NFC support, more RAM and CPU for faster signing of transactions, and it's just such a reliable performer. I also particularly like that you can set this device up without having to plug it into a computer. You can initialize the device and get those twelve, eighteen, or twenty-four words out and use that as your seed. Now, CoinKite also offer a range of products which we chat about. They've got the TapSigner, the S And the block clock, so you can go and find out more over at CoinKite dot com, use code Livera for a discount. And when it comes to Bitcoin mining, you've got to check out Brains dot com, that's b r a i i n s dot com. They offer BrainsOS Plus, which is firmware that you can install on a range of Bitcoin mining ASICs and give yourself additional efficiency or potentially even increase your hash rate by auto-tuning. Now, they also offer BrainsPool, so BrainsPool used to be called SlushPool, but the branding is, Unified under the Brain's umbrella, they've got a range of features. They've got frequent and customizable payout timing, you can help manage the, workers and monitoring, so get alerted about changes in your hash rate, as well as have access management. There are APIs to share access to your pool account without fully compromising your security. They also offer VIP support for large scale mining operations, so get in touch. They've also got resources on their website such as their blog and also the Insights dashboard. You can find all of this over Livera at brains dot com, that's b r a i i n s dot com. And now onto the show." }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "03:06", "start": 186.16, "text": "Matthew, welcome to the show. thanks, Stefan. It's, it's great to see you again, and it's, it's an honor to be with you today." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:13", "start": 192.85, "text": "Yeah, so I, I enjoyed our chat. so for listeners, we met at Pit Block Boom recently, so that was, you know, a couple months ago. and yeah, we had an interesting chat, and I thought this would be, would, this would Whether maybe they're curious about that world as well. So, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing in the world of Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "03:38", "start": 217.69, "text": "Yeah, sure. So, I run two businesses. One is a law firm called Evergreen Legacy Planning. it's a law firm based in Colorado. We're just up in the mountains a little bit, just west of Denver. And our practice has historically served ultra affluent clients, US-based clients, who just have significant levels Of wealth, and that means different things to different people, but for us, it's usually at least fifty million dollars worth of an aggregate estate. mostly, I mean, most of our clients are well above that, but that's kind of where our, our threshold starts. I also run a company called Bespoke Services. Bespoke is a multi-family office exclusively serving, ultra-affluent, crypto asset clients, and the vast majority of those are Bitcoin whales. And so they're, they're two separate entities, they do two different things. But with Bespoke, we focus on, wealth strategy design support. We provide concierge services, we provide some privacy services around real estate holdings, and, we're beginning to develop some financial services as well through a regulated entity that we're, that we're developing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:52", "start": 292.45, "text": "Of course, yeah. So I think that'll be interesting for listeners as well, potentially those who want to understand what does it look like at that level, so- As you, as you mentioned, I guess the, the bar here, we're talking about fifty million dollars or, you know, what's that, two and a half thousand coins, something like that, roughly, I'm just mental math. we should try to be Bitcoin denominated here, right? Yeah, right. But anyway, yeah, so, yeah, so let's say above two and a half thousand coins, roughly, ballpark. And so, I guess, how would their needs of that kind of whale differ from, let's say, the typical Bitcoin hodler," }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "05:30", "start": 330.0, "text": "Well, I guess I wanna make maybe a clarifying point in that, we're talking about their total aggregate wealth, denominated in whatever their sovereign currency is, in our case, it's US dollars. So it, it may or may not be two and a half thousand coins, it may just be fifty million dollars, you know, worth of wealth, of which a significant value is held in Bitcoin. So usually we're starting, starting to look at some sophisticated, wealth transfer and legal- structures for clients who have a few hundred coins, as part of a much larger nut that they've got. Because what we're seeing, especially with our Bitcoin hodlers, you know, our, our clients aren't ultra affluent clients who have come to Bitcoin because they, they see something interesting in Bitcoin. Our clients are clients who made significant wealth in Bitcoin. They were early adopters, they've been in the game for a long time, and so they kind of ideologically believe in the value proposition position of Bitcoin, and for them, a lot of what their values kind of start to pivot around is not just private key succession and managing the transition of their key material in the event they become incapacitated or in the event they die. And frankly, all, all of us need to do that. But these clients built their wealth in Bitcoin, they perceive that Bitcoin has a very long horizon as a bedrock of, of the future economy globally. And there's a certain amount of their Bitcoin that they perceive they never want to get rid of, and they want to preserve that through future generations. And so there are ways that we can design strategies that provide a high level of asset protection around those, those assets. we can certainly hope to get into some of that. We can significantly mitigate or eliminate some of the capital gains tax consequences that they're looking at, either at a state level or a federal level, if they do. Seek to liquidate any of their Bitcoin and take some off the top in the next crazy cycle that we get into, or they simply want to make sure that it becomes the last asset the family ever liquidates. it becomes, again, that not just the bedrock of the future global economy, but the bedrock of their family's wealth. So there are ways that we can kind of provide security and, preservation around those assets so nothing can separate their family from their Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:56", "start": 476.06, "text": "So when it comes to asset protection, what are we talking about?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "08:01", "start": 480.7, "text": "You know, there's creditors can surface from all kinds of, all kinds of ways. It could be business creditors, it could be family creditors like a divorcing spouse, it could be the divorcing spouse of one of your children, and it could also even be what we refer to sometimes in the industry as a super creditor. That's, you know, creditors at the governmental level. And so there are different kinds of ways, there are different strategies that have different levels of protection around them that we- Can kind of guide the client through the cost benefit analysis of, you know, what makes the most sense based off what you're looking at. You know, here in the US, you know, there's no secret that we're probably the most litigious country in the, in the world, and the most common, creditor is a divorcing spouse or a partner who leaves. I mean, we know that about half of all marriages are gonna end in divorce, and, there's not a whole lot you can do to protect your Bitcoin or your- Other assets if you don't proactively plan well in advance of a potential claim. so a lot of the different trust structures, some of the different jurisdictions that we, that we incorporate in our planning can help provide a lot of protection around those types of creditors." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:15", "start": 555.41, "text": "So would it be right then to say that a common recommendation or structure then is a trust for, for these kinds of individuals who have a, an elevated need for the asset protection?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "09:26", "start": 565.9, "text": "Yeah, I mean, trusts, trusts definitely play a significant role. There are A lot of different kinds of trusts that do a lot of different things. So a trust, really at its core, is just a legal relationship between the creator of that trust, which we refer to usually as the settlor, the beneficiaries of that trust, who-- the people for whom the trust is established, and the trustee of that trust, the one who is ultimately charged with fiduciary responsibilities to manage that trust for the benefit of the beneficiaries according to the settlor's objectives. And consistent with the provisions of the prevailing jurisdictional law that you incorporate. And so within that framework, I mean, that, that is a trust, and there are revocable trusts that you can maintain full control over, for which you have no asset protection at all, you have no tax benefits at all. Revocable trusts really serve, as a succession mechanism so that your trustee can simply step into your shoes and manage your assets. Without court intervention in the event you become incapacitated or in the event you die. That's just the garden variety revocable trust that, at least here in the US and any trust favored jurisdiction, everybody frankly ought to have that, even your, your basic plebs like me. Then there are irrevocable trusts, trusts over which you, you have surrendered some level of control, and it's that surrender of control That starts to get you some of the asset protection objectives, some of the tax outcomes that you're looking for. And even within that, there are dozens and scores of different categories of irrevocable trusts based off of the objectives that you're seeking to accomplish. And so for, for clients with significant wealth, a lot of what we do is analyze what their objectives are, go through some cost benefit analysis with them, and create-- really it's almost a portfolio of legal strategies for them, knowing that each element in that portfolio has different outcomes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:37", "start": 696.73, "text": "I see, yeah. So in a way, you're helping consult with that client and helping them figure out what is the right kind of trust for them, and in some cases, that's an irrevocable trust, and what's the right type of trust. So coming back to what you mentioned. Earlier around capital gains tax and tax planning, what are some of the benefits there from that side? So" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "11:56", "start": 716.19, "text": "here in the United States, we not only have federal, federal capital gains tax imposed on gains when you recognize them through a liquidation event, a lot of the various states have state level capital gains tax that gets attached as well. California is among the most usurious with thirteen point three percent. State level tax on top of the twenty percent federal income tax on capital gains, plus an additional three point eight percent kicker that you get at the federal level. So Massachusetts is also likely to pass an additional four percent surtax on all income over four, excuse me, over one million dollars rate, taking income over, including capital gains income over a million dollars to almost ten percent. So some of the strategies that we're in Incorporating our irrevocable trusts, where we change the, the identity of the taxpayer from the individual settlor of that trust to the trust itself, through a complex trust structure, and we base that trust in a jurisdiction like Wyoming that has no state level income tax on gains or on ordinary income, so that we, we shift income generating assets into those types of trusts Whether it's capital gains, you know, or, or whatever, we can put Bitcoin into that trust. When the client wants to sell the Bitcoin, it can get sold th- at the trust level through a Wyoming structure, and they still have to pay federal, but they can get out of state level income tax. And when you're talking about almost ten percent or over thirteen percent, that becomes really consequential. And then at the federal level, there's not a ton we can do unless we start incorporating Charitable strategies. There are some irrevocable charitable trusts that allow, that allow settlor's, people who create the trust, to at least significantly defer the capital gains over, you know, stretching out the capital gains recognition over their lifetimes, usually. So we have a, a large gain recognition event in one year, we can either eliminate all of the capital gains at that level or we can simply stretch it out for a significant- period of time, allowing the client to then reinvest and outrun the capital gains recognition over a period of time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:25", "start": 864.72, "text": "Oh, that's interesting as well. and I'm also curious as well. So you mentioned this concept of, okay, as an example, if, if that client is setting up an irrevocable trust and they're putting some of their coins into that trust, is there any tax event on doing that, or is it only on the back end when you sell?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "14:39", "start": 879.21, "text": "yeah, I mean, it's a complicated, it, the question isn't that straightforward to that we have to consider when we make those transfers. From an income tax perspective, that is typically not an income recognition event, so we have what's called carryover basis, which means that the basis for capital gains tax purposes inside the trust is the same as when it was in the hands of the settlor themselves. So there's not a gain recognition event, but we also have to contemplate the possibility of lifetime gift tax, and And so when we're structuring here in the United States, so we've got this currently unified gift and estate tax regime here in the US, and once you are making gifts above a certain threshold, then a gift tax of forty percent, that's four zero percent, would apply to gifts over that amount. And so a lot of what we're doing on the, on the wealth strategy side is creating layers of structures such that we can actually- Shift well more, in advance, you know, well in excess of the gift tax exemption into these trusts without actually paying gift tax on those transfers." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:58", "start": 958.31, "text": "I see, yeah, complicated question, hey, complicated answer, I would say. so I guess I'm also curious as well, and maybe listeners are too, how many people actually seriously consider going expat or going to some other jurisdiction? and I guess maybe there's probably two parts to this, right? On one side, it's kind of just in- Inside the US, right? Like I'm sure that's a common thing where people say, \"I don't like the state tax in this country, in this state, I'm gonna move over to the zero tax, at least at the state level.\" And then there are, on the second level, there are some people who think seriously about leaving the country. So I'm curious your thoughts there. Is that something a conversation you end up having with clients also?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "16:37", "start": 996.93, "text": "Yeah, definitely, definitely. And, and in the US, you know, moving from one state to the next is, is really quite Jurisdictions, California, New York, and Massachusetts are some of, and Illinois are some of the most aggressive jurisdictions. They're some of the highest tax jurisdictions, and they're very jealous of their, their tax revenues that they get to collect. So, when a Californian wants to move to Texas, or they wanna move to Wyoming or Florida or someplace like that where there is no state level income tax, they often will go through a lot of rounds with the Department of Revenue in those jurisdictions to establish When they, when they left the state, when did they establish their residency in the new jurisdiction? But we see that a lot, and as I mentioned, for a lot of these clients, especially if you're staying within the US borders, we've got the ability to create a lot of strategies that take advantage of the laws of a zero tax jurisdiction without you having to move. So, we've got clients in California who still don't pay California income tax on their gains because of these trusts structures that I've talked about. Now, again, there are a lot of restrictions on how the-- on how those trusts can work, but if you're okay with those restrictions, the tax outcomes are really significant. The, as to the international expatriation question, that's, I, you know, I don't see my clients Doing that simply because they're so comfortable living in the United States. I mean, their family is here, their businesses are here, their real estate positions are here, and, for them, the switching cost of going to another jurisdiction is simply greater than the potential tax outcomes, because, you know, you also have a, a massive exit tax if you simply want to burn your passport and become a, you know, a citizen of some other country. But I do see a growing number of clients interested in Is not necessarily severing ties with the US, but beginning to open ties with a secondary jurisdiction. So one of the services that we're helping clients navigate is establishing residences, and getting a pathway to a passport in another high quality jurisdiction like New Zealand, like Switzerland, like Portugal, places like that that aren't, you know, some, you know, tiny island somewhere that nobody's, that nobody can find on a map. Map, but, to a developed country with a good reputation internationally. So in the event we go to a, another COVID lockdown situation or things just really go off the rails as far as our clients are concerned, they've got options." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:21", "start": 1160.57, "text": "Right. And of course, many of us, many of us are libertarian or libertarian leaning, let's say, and so I can understand, definitely the last few years has driven a lot of people to really seriously consider this, whereas let's say five or ten years ago, if you were to have that conversation then It would have been a very different conversation, whereas nowadays, I, I think people who can access this are actually starting to think about it, talk about it, be interested in this question, even, and so people talk about this idea of, \"Oh, you should have a plan B,\" right? That's kind of-- I guess that's kind of the, the conversation now, and I'm sure you've, you've seen that there, there would have been a big pickup in your clients on that conversation." }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "19:58", "start": 1198.29, "text": "Yeah, for sure. And, and even, you know, even They, they perceive a stigma when they're flying internationally with the US passport, and so they would like to have, whether it's an Irish passport or a Swiss passport or something that is, or you know, even a Canadian passport, you know, the, the trucker blockade issues notwithstanding, you know, there's, to a certain degree, there's a stigma that has begun to attach to the US passport, and, and clients like, like to have options." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:32", "start": 1232.32, "text": "Yeah, in a way, it's, it's fascinating because I think when people talk about saving- wealth over multiple generations, as, as I'm sure you do with many of your clients, it really forces you to zoom out and really look at things at a more global and zoomed out history level, and you start to see, well, actually there were times where certain countries of the world or certain parts of the world became very predatory from a, whether that's from a tax point of view, whether that's from a, you know, mandates point of view, whether it's from, just regulation and the quality of life. And I, I suppose- Because it's hard for people to broach that conversation in a way because it's very emotional. It's, you know, for many, many people, it's where we grew up or it's where our family is. But at the same time, if you have the wealth or the skill and the ability to sort of get those plan B options, then it might be worth your while, right?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "21:25", "start": 1285.07, "text": "I think so. I think so. Again, it's, it's part of-- We really see it as part of a overall wealth plan. I mean, part of it is tax-oriented, part of it Protection oriented, part of it is securing the inheritance for future generations, and part of it is having optionality as far as where you live in this world and how you get around. And so, we really see it as a holistic kind of comprehensive way of planning for these clients who have significant means." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:52", "start": 1312.47, "text": "Sure. And so when it comes to things like inheritance and passing things on to our children, what are some of the ways that the trust or irrevocable trust structure helped us do that? Like, let's say we wanna pass it on to our children, what are some of the ways it helped" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "22:08", "start": 1328.08, "text": "So it kind of occurs on a spectrum, and since we're talking about the ultra high net worth, realm, I think I'll kinda start there, and maybe we can start scaling it back a little bit for people who have more modest means like me. One of the biggest challenges that we run into when we're dealing with complex multi-generational irrevocable trust frameworks is finding an appropriate trustee. You know, as I mentioned, a fiduciary has to be on hand to manage these assets, and for, in order to get- The privacy, asset protection, and tax outcomes that these clients are looking for, they can't personally serve as that trustee. Their kids can't personally serve as that trustee. you have to create a, you basically have to air gap the trust from the controls. But then there's the challenge of, well, who else can I select? If I select my brother-in-law or some other friend, one, can I trust them to do the right thing with the assets at the right time? Two, do they understand Bitcoin? Bitcoin well enough to manage the stuff. Three, are they immortal? Will they, you know, become incapacitated themselves or die? Well, of course they will, especially when we're talking about trust that can literally last hundreds of years. So, makes us think about, okay, well, what institutions are appropriate to serve as that trustee? And the answer is really very few, if any. so what do you do? the laws of the jurisdictions where we do a lot of our planning, I mentioned Wyoming. we can get into some of the why about Wyoming perhaps, but a lot of the jurisdictions in the United States allow families to establish a private family trust company that serves as the institution, and there are some external controls you have to put in place in order to get the tax and privacy and asset protection outcomes that you're looking for, but the family controls it generationally. And so the private trust company becomes the family's fiduciary for all of the trusts inside of it. The- Settlor's, the clients, and maybe additional family members serve as the board. They do have to hire some external professionals to create enough of that air gap, but then you can create the governance protocols in place so that as children mature over time, they begin to share in the decision-making process. And so now you've got this portfolio of trusts that are managing the assets, and you've got the family trust company itself that is serving as the fiduciary for all of those family trust companies, and that can also have- An indefinite lifespan. So you just build, you, you build the on ramps and the protocols in place such that the kids and future generations can begin to share in that decision making process. So for the ultra affluent, you can get a really elegant, highly integrated solution for managing not just Bitcoin wealth, but all the family wealth." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:58", "start": 1498.31, "text": "And so am I right in guessing then that some of those trusted professionals, would they actually be some of the family's lawyers, accountants, other- People like that or who, who are we talking about here when we're talking about trusted professionals or semi-trusted or whatever?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "25:13", "start": 1513.02, "text": "Yeah, I mean, you know, trust is always a loaded term in the, in the Bitcoin world, I know. So in order to have a properly functioning, you know, legally compliant family trust company, you have to have a professional fiduciary with Cytis. That means on the ground in the jurisdiction that you're claiming Cytis or, or- Or your trust's home. So that means that you either need to have an individual, or we believe that for continuity purposes and for insurance and professionalism purposes, that's gonna be a trust, a, a trust company, but you're not hiring that trust company as the trustee, you're hiring that trustee to run your trust company, and you can fire them at will. But then often the clients will have us serve on various committees, whether it's overseeing distributions, helping with investment decisions. Decisions, helping with philanthropy decisions, primarily just as a experienced sounding board. the clients get to make all the decisions, and they can fire anybody in this trust company at will. But, you know, this, these are complicated structures with a lot of complex decisions that need to get made. And so, yeah, the clients, CPAs often will serve, trust, attorneys might serve, wealth advisors might serve, but we, we tell clients, I mean, you're not, you're not putting a ring on the finger. I mean, this is, you, you Anybody, anytime, you know, you want to. you just have to create, you just gonna have to maintain the protocols that the trust company requires in order to comply. But it's, it's cool because it allows the family to control all the decision making all the time, but in a way that from a tax perspective is air gapped." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:53", "start": 1612.6, "text": "I see, yeah. And so out of curiosity and probably because many listeners are also thinking about this Why bother with all this stuff? Like, what if theoretically, what if they just, you know, have a multisig and have, you know, three or five split up, split up across different family members as, just for, for the sake of a hypothetical, why not do that?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "27:14", "start": 1634.0, "text": "Yeah, I think for a lot of clients, for a lot of people, they, they need to do that for sure. And again, you know, we look at this as a spectrum. I mean, this to our, to our mind, this isn't an all or nothing proposition. There is some Bitcoin, I, I, I take my own advice on this stuff. there is some level of Bitcoin that you have that I believe, I, I s- I suspect that you've got some level of Bitcoin that you never wanna get rid of, and ideally you want future generations to not get rid of, and you want to be able to create options around that. But then there's other Bitcoin that I simply want to make sure I pass on to my kids when I'm, when I'm gone. And there's other Bitcoin that I want to have in, in unilateral self-sovereign- Custody on a cold storage device if I wanna send some Bitcoin to a friend or if I want to transact in that. Now that becomes challenging from a tax perspective, as you well know. But I've got some self-sovereignty, I've got some multi-sig, I've got some custodian-ally supported Bitcoin because I, I've created for myself this, this type of spectrum. But I think at the macro level, I think we-- there's, there's a lot of conversation in the Bitcoin space, which I know is, this is gonna be maybe a little bit unpopular, And success, you know, Bitcoin succession isn't as simple as making sure my private keys go to the right person. Part of it is, is that person prepared for it? do they, do they know what it is? Do they know how to-- do they care about it as much as I do? Odds are they probably don't, 'cause I'm the Bitcoiner in the family. My kids know about it, but they don't get it really. And so if I just, if I just have a s-- a framework where I've, you know, created my trail of breadcrumbs to Okay, that's, that's great, but now I've given this, you know, perfect digital asset bearer instrument to people who don't understand it, aren't prepared for it, and may liquidate it right away. And I think we're all-- I think we're just naive to think that the taxing authorities aren't gonna figure out how to tra-- how to tra-- how to track down Bitcoin blockchain transactions and either blacklist stuff that's gone through mixers or be able to figure out that I don't- I died, you know, twenty years ago and my kids got my Bitcoin, what's their basis for capital gains tax purposes? Because at some point they're gonna wanna monetize that, and at some point it's gonna surface on somebody who's gonna do a KYC on those tokens and on those clients, right? On those, my family. So what's their basis for capital gains tax purposes? If I have planned appropriately through various trust structures and I can substantiate that basis, or if I die with that value in my Gross estate for US federal estate tax purposes, they get a step up in basis, they get a new basis at the fair market value at my date of death. So if Bitcoin is six figures or more by then, they get a new basis at six figures or more. If I simply have found a way to technically hand off my key material, but we don't have a paper trail saying what it was worth when my kids got it, then they go to liquidate it or then they go to borrow against it, well, their basis is gonna be presumed to be zero for federal get-- for federal US tax purposes, both state and federal. So the, capital gains tax liability could be immense and avoidable, if you plan appropriately. Or if I died and I've got a stack of Bitcoin and it's over the federal estate tax exemption at that point, and I've simply found a way to kind of sneak them my digital gold around the corner, around my tax return, well, not only would the tax liability from a capital gains tax perspective be immense, there would have also been penalties and- Interest, civil and potentially criminal accruing from my date of death. And so, I, I guess I, I get a bit, I get a bit on a soapbox about this, but I believe that if Bitcoin really is the bedrock of the future global economy, which I believe it is, if we believe it is this pristine asset, the most perfect form of money we've ever seen, I think we have to treat it that way and give it the planning that it, frankly, that it deserves. But, I, but it comes with trade-offs. I mean, I get" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:34", "start": 1894.26, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Have you thought about improving your Bitcoin security? Unchained Capital can help you take your security to the next level with multi-signature. Now, this could be applicable for you whether you leave your coins on an exchange or whether you are still using a single-signature setup and you wanna help remove single points of failure. With Unchained, they can help ship you the hardware if you need it, and they can do a video call with you to teach you how to set up your two of three multi-signature vault and then walk you through the process. Of withdrawing from an exchange into your vault, so don't put this off, take the time, self-custody, defend yourself, and make sure that you still have access to unilaterally spend your coins. You can find this over at unchained dot com, you can search for the concierge program, and use the code levera for a discount on your program. Are you still using a plain old block explorer? Bitcoin has grown beyond a single layer, it's now a fully fledged multi-layer ecosystem. Mempool dot space is a comprehensive Bitcoin explorer covering This ecosystem, from the mempool to the blockchain, to second layer networks, and recently the Lightning Network, so you can use it to explore the Lightning Network. You can search for Lightning nodes, you can see channel open and closed transactions, and it all ties through. You can see the on-chain transaction component right there. So with mempool.space, you don't even have to trust a third party, you can install it yourself and operate it for yourself. Now, for enterprises, mempool.space offers customized mempool instances. You can have your company's branding, you can have increased API limits. And more. Go and find out more at mempool dot space slash enterprise. And now back to the show. Of course, yeah. so part of this trade-off of-- and of course, it depends what level you're at. So as we were talking about, you know, the family trust company and these different, you know, and this irrevocable trust, that's at, as you're saying, at this ultra-high net worth level. How does it change if, let's say, as you were saying, somebody isn't an ultra-high net worth? individual, but obviously they're bullish on Bitcoin, they think this thing is gonna be, you know, every coin is gonna be millions of dollars per coin in fiat terms. What, what should they be thinking about? How should they be managing?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "33:45", "start": 2024.76, "text": "Well, I think the first, the first thing to remember is that any type of planning should be iterative, because planning for Bitcoin at a US dollar denominated spot value of nineteen thousand is gonna be very different than planning for Bitcoin when the US denominated spot value is in the, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Dollars. so, we still live in a US dollar denominated world by and large. If that change-- whether that changes in my lifetime, I think we'll-- it'll be interesting to see if that, that happens or not. But we plan for what we know, and so because what we know changes all the time, planning needs to be iterative. I think it starts with creating a reliable trail of breadcrumbs, you know, private key succession. How do you-- how do you lead your spouse or partner or the person or persons that you trust? And the individuals that you ultimately want to receive this Bitcoin, how do you lead them to the Bitcoin? That's step one. So no more coins end up getting lost and locked forever, because we've mismanaged the succession. I think ex- understanding how multi-sig works and then selecting the appropriate multi-sig, signature holders is critical. But really a lot of it goes to preparing your family, preparing the people that you ultimately want to pass that on to. What is Bitcoin? Why do you- care about it. I mean, I've had a lot of conversations with my wife, I've had a lot of conversations with my daughters about this, but, and I, I think they're kinda getting there. But if I were to die sooner rather than later, I'm relying on my multi-sig signature holders, I'm relying on the individuals that I've shifted my decision-making authority to in the event of my incapacity or death, and I've created some clear instructions about what I believe about Bitcoin and, and why I want that to be the very last- asset liquidated in the event they have to liquidate. Because as Bitcoiners, sometimes it's, it's-- sometimes it's easy to think that everybody in our circle sees Bitcoin the same way that we see it, and I just don't think that that's the case. I think that spouses, partners, kids, parents, they might know that we're into Bitcoin, but they may not share our conviction about it. So whether, whether we use a revocable living trust, whether we use some other type of basic estate planning strategy, kind of- Without even thinking about the asset protection or tax consequences, creating a legally enforceable written series of instructions and selecting the right people to help make those decisions, that's, that's really where the game is played, and frankly, every Bitcoiner needs that and just a quick, a quick word, if I can, about the difference between wills and trusts. there's a, there's a huge misunderstanding about wills and trusts here in the United States. a lot of people think, \"Well, if I simply have a will, then I can just allow my assets to be transferred to the person I want to have receive that when I die.\" That's true to a point, however, in the United States, if you have a will, all that will does is provide legally enforceable instr- Instructions to the court in your jurisdiction so that a judge gets to, in a public proceeding, tell the world what you have, tell the world what you want done with it, and tell the world who's gonna get your stuff, whether it's Bitcoin or whatever. When you have a trust, you privatize that process. So the trust provides for the facilitation of transfer and even of incapacity or death, but it does it in a way that's private, where we don't end up going to a, you know, a judiciary somewhere to publicize what- We have." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:23", "start": 2242.82, "text": "I see, yeah, so it might be useful from a, in a weird way, a privacy perspective then." }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "37:28", "start": 2248.4, "text": "Hundred percent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:29", "start": 2249.18, "text": "So, I-- and also, this is that other point around custody. So, how is the custody situation in, using these more advanced, let's say, or even the basic structures, compared to the person just doing DIY?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "37:44", "start": 2264.07, "text": "Yeah, so at the, at the basic level, when you're talking about a revocable trust, like I was just talking about that kind of base level estate plan that everybody needs-- needs to have. At least during your lifetime, I think multisig is probably the way to go, because you're not looking to sever your own control, you can have unilateral control, and that, that works just fine. But if you wanna manage succession risk, then you're looking at multisig or something like that. But once you die and the multi-signature parties kind of collaboratively, collaboratively take custody of your Bitcoin, there's still the pesky issue of who is the trustee of the trust and how does the- That trustee get custody of the Bitcoin. So the trustee is gonna have to probably have a controlling quorum of the multisig, or they're gonna have to put it in a centralized custodian. And then if you have, because multisig, at least currently, is not, it doesn't rise to the level of meeting custodial standards in any jurisdiction in the US. It's, it's simply a great, it's a, it's a functional workaround to manage succession risk and transfer. But it doesn't- It doesn't, it doesn't create an opportunity yet for trustee type structures. so we'd be looking at a, you know, at a professional custodian who can custody digital assets, whether that's here in the US, over in Switzerland, Liechtenstein, someplace like that. So once the trustee then has control over those assets, then they're gonna have their fiat assets that they're supporting, whether it's real estate positions or, you know, US dollars or, you know, other sovereign currencies or, Purchase metals or an equities portfolio and a Bitcoin portfolio, so it's gonna just operate just like that, and then they're gonna account to the, the beneficiaries of the trust on a, you know, periodic basis. At the more advanced level, when we do have an irrevocable trust that we're creating for these tax outcomes, we have to go to some type of custodial framework, and so then selecting the right custodian, who's got massively deep pockets, who are complying with the Regulations, I know, and that, I mean, that sucks in some respects because we don't like our KYC, we don't like KYC, but that's the price we pay if these are the outcomes that we're looking for. And so we, we have to use a custodian either here in the US or over in Europe to then serve as a custodian supporting the trustee over the assets." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:13", "start": 2413.05, "text": "I see, yeah. And so I'm curious then, what does that spell for the ecosystem if, you know, if a lot of the coins end up in centralized custodians, does that That, you know, does that portend something bad for the, for the asset if, if let's say, you know, the legal system as it is today in the US at least encourages this kind of behavior for the ultra-high net worth people?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "40:36", "start": 2435.59, "text": "Yeah, it's a good question. I think realistically, the two worlds are gonna have to find a way to meet in the middle. I think that to a certain degree, we, we have to just weigh the cost benefit analysis. You know, when Satoshi first, you know, issued the white paper, we know it was a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. It was designed as a medium of exchange. That's why he created it. That's, that's my interpretation of why he created it. That's the way I read the, the white paper. But the very nature of the algorithm has made it become this beautiful store of value. So I- I think, frankly, that Bitcoin itself, layer one, is the bedrock on which the foundation is built, and then we're gonna have second layer applications, Lightning Network, that kind of stuff, that's gonna then facilitate peer-to-peer transfers either natively in Bitcoin or in some other asset that is reserve backed by Bitcoin, whether it's a Bitcoin-backed stablecoin, who knows? But if, if Bitcoin is the bedrock, I think that we're gonna have to find ways to- To protect the bedrock, and that is going to inherently be, in my opinion, it's gonna be inherently centralized. So for example, back when we had a gold standard, gold didn't become a global reserve asset by a bunch of people taking it into vaults, burying it into the ground in their field somewhere, and just saying, \"Yeah, I've got my gold.\" It, it became a global reserve asset when it became, became centralized and intermediaries started to say, \"Okay, well, based off of this gold, we can then transact in reserve notes backed by...\" By this gold. What Bitcoin does, again, just totally my perspective, which may or may not be popular, Bitcoin can become a digital version of that. Now, that's not to say that the federal governments get all of our Bitcoin, but I think that we can decentralize the underlying store of value, but there, there's gonna have to be, in my opinion, a, a certain levels of concentration of that, not in one location, but hopefully in a lot of jurisdictionally diverse juris-- locations with Safeguards in place to protect the integrity of the assets, so we can then have, you know, use this bedrock for the global Economy. You know, I, I don't know. I, I think I, that's why I, I struggle with, some of the, some of the maximalist perspectives. And from a, from a token ownership perspective, I'm absolutely a Bitcoin maximalist. But, some of the challenge I have is that if we're all just hodling and we're not telling anybody that we're hodling and we're not-- and, and we're trying to create our own world rather than try to bring the world as it exists in line with the asset that we believe in, We're, you know, we're kind of limiting what Bitcoin-- I think we're kind of serving as an impediment to the expansion of Bitcoin if we, you know, if we are so opposed to centralization in some, in some cases." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:35", "start": 2615.09, "text": "So it's an interesting tension I see here, because there will be, of course, Bitcoiners and probably, again, from a libertarian perspective, who are Worried about future encroachment from the government, right? We may see moves made in terms of wealth taxes coming. We may see moves made in, in terms of, unrealized capital gains taxes coming. and there may be people who are like, you know, I would rather, you know, the whole idea is to make this parallel outside system. so, I-- but I certainly, I take your point that, Given the current legal system, you could argue there are incentives here. So, as you mentioned, the step-up basis, right? So the idea is if you pass it down to your children, they, instead of having your, inheriting your lower cost basis and paying taxes based on that, if they inherit this higher basis, then there's a smaller difference there when they're spending those coins. We'll see what happens. I mean, the ideal case would be for there to be no capital gains tax, on Bitcoin, and perhaps that's something every Bitcoiner should be out there, they To make that happen, although I understand even, even here there are different views, there are some people saying no, it should be a fully, just make your own system, just build anew, whereas others are seeing it more-- and maybe this is more aligned with your view, which is more people should try to change the, the current system, and even if that means politics and lobbying in the current system, then so be it, because otherwise this, this thing won't actually get to the level, and I, I guess that's probably the argument, that's probably the side you're taking," }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "45:07", "start": 2706.96, "text": "At some point, these parallel worlds have to merge. I, you know, I don't, I, I really don't realistically see that. I, I just intellectually I can't understand how you can have two worlds that exist in parallel and they're always perpetually in parallel. if, if Bitcoin is just gonna be the Bitcoin world, we're gonna be a very small group having our own parties and talking about how the rest of the world is crazy. I, I think in, in where I think I represent, part- Part of the emerging financial services industry is that, we've got the Bitcoin world, which frankly is largely the world as it should be. We have the existing fiat world, which is just the world as it is. And how can we merge the two together and preserve the very best of what Bitcoin is and bring the fiat world in line with, with Bitcoin? I d- and I, and I think on the Bitcoin side, I think we're gonna have to give up some things. I mean, I think there's gonna have- To be some compromises. I, I don't think it's realistic to say that there'll never be capital gains tax in the US on Bitcoin. There's capital gains tax on gold, there's capital gains tax on investment real estate, there's capital gains tax on anything that is pro- that is property, and I think it will always be that way. And I think that it's unrealistic to believe that, that won't happen. I think what needs to happen is, if we, if you and I are transacting in gold, let's say Bitcoin doesn't exist and you and I are gold bugs and we're transacting in gold. There would still be that very same gain recognition or loss recognition event every time we're swapping nuggets back and forth. We'd have to go to somebody who's gonna establish the value of that, and then whether we report it or not, we're gonna have a taxable event. It's income to you, it's a capital gains event for me. So, I mean, Bitcoin I mean, again, this is probably unpopular, but Bitcoin should probably not be any different. But again, maybe, maybe my imagination is just too limited, but I don't, I don't really see The entire world burning down, while the Bitcoin world just continues to grow organically and ultimately this, this whole new Bitcoin based order takes over. If that's the case, I mean, the world is gonna be kind of a terrible place that Bitcoiners have to live in while the rest of the world burns. I think, I, I really think that the future for me and for, for Bitcoin is that we focus on bringing the rest of the fiat world into alignment with the values of Bitcoin as the- The hardest money, the most secure, pristine collateral we've ever known, and reorienting the global financial economy around that. But that's, I mean, that's my perspective on it anyway. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:56", "start": 2876.03, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah. So, look, well, well, let's see, what happens. Of course, I think it, it's probably unlikely that, capital gains tax is removed on Bitcoin in the US. I think, other-- That may be to the benefit of other countries, you know, El Salvador as an example, and other countries around the world Gains, right? UAE, Switzerland, although they have a wealth tax, there's a few others out there. So yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens and will people, you know, as an example, the plan B conversation that we were talking about earlier, that may become plan A for some Bitcoiners in the future where they think, you know what, this system is costing me too much, this other system is better, let me go over there, right? And I know there are some famous historical examples like, I know the Facebook guy," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:41", "start": 2920.94, "text": "Eduardo Basically get away from the, US tax system, so who knows if that's kind of where things go?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "48:49", "start": 2929.25, "text": "I think that's a really good point. That's a really good point. And, I'm a fan of the sovereign individual and the five hundred year delta, and, there's another one I'm, I'm forgetting right now, of the fourth turning. And I think that there's a compelling case that can be made that we're already living in a post-American generation. I think that what, one of my takeaways from the- From sovereign individual, I guess, is that Rome, the Rome had fallen three hundred years before the world realized that Rome had fallen. I think it's possible that we're living in a post-Rome world for the United States. I mean, look at who, look at how we're governed, look at the, look at who makes the decisions, these, you know, septuagenarians, octogenarians, detached from any accountability, we're more polarized than we've been probably since the United States Civil War, and we see a lot of Meaningful innovation in other countries, economic innovation, technological innovation, political innovation, and, I think that the US is, potentially at a tipping point, if not beyond the tipping point, and we could very well see significant capital flight out of the US as wealthy individuals are pursuing Plan B somewhere else, where they can, where they can be aligned with the world as they, as they, as they see it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:10", "start": 3010.16, "text": "Yeah. But to be fair as well, like it's, you know- Yes, you can go to other jurisdictions, but I think at least for now, there's still a massive amount of capital, there's still a massive amount of talent in the US, and it's kind of like, once you're in that system, it's e-- perhaps it's easy to, easier, let's say, to build wealth inside that system because it's kind of relatively, once you-- as long as you're inside there, right? Yeah. But" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "50:32", "start": 3031.78, "text": "yeah, the flywheel is spinning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:33", "start": 3032.94, "text": "Right. And, and where it's probably gonna take longer to build that kind of wealth outside the" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "50:43", "start": 3042.88, "text": "The mat-- the vast majority of innovators and scientific minds want to come to the United States, even from other countries, because to your, to your point, the flywheel effect. You know, there's already so much innovation here, and it's, it's easier to build within, A, a far from perfect system, that it is to recreate a better system somewhere else where the, where you don't have this concentration of, of talent already. so I don't, I, again, I don't know what that means for the US writ large. I do believe that as the baby boomer generation dies off over the course of the next decade or two, there's gonna be the, the largest transfer of wealth we've ever seen in the world, trillions of dollars passing from the boomer generation to my generation and then to- younger generations, millennials and, and below. There's going to be a significant, who knows what the numbers are, we'll see, time will tell, but there's gonna be a significant increase in adoption of Bitcoin and, lamentably, some of the other digital assets that are out there, but there's gonna be a lot of wealth that comes into Bitcoin because it's digital, it's immutable, it's transportable, it's, you know, fractional, fractional, and the, divisible, I guess is the term I'm looking for, not really fractional, but divisible. And so it's just, it's such a better store of value than, than anything that their grandparents are invested in. so we're gonna see a lot of money, I think, come out of equities, come out of real estate portfolios, come out of closely held companies as they pass from the boomer generation to the inheriting generation, and we're gonna see a lot of wealth come into Bitcoin. And I think as that wealth comes into Bitcoin, especially into the millennial generation and the Gen X, the, millennial generation and the Gen Z generation, which are, The largest voting, largest voting bloc by population now, that will start to change policy dramatically in the US. The question's gonna be, is it too late? And what will the outcomes of that be? But I, I do believe it's going to turn. I just think that it's gonna take a generational shift, because the policy's gonna follow the money." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:52", "start": 3172.37, "text": "Yeah. So there's been a lot of, yeah, back and forth, and, yeah, I think we, we, we could make really strong arguments in either way, right? Like kind of The pro America argument or the, let's say, the go outside and get, whatever, lower taxes or whatever other freedoms that, a person might be pursuing, and you could sort of make that case of like, \"Oh, it's everyone just go work remote, work overseas, you know, find a better jurisdiction and, you know, use Bitcoin for that.\" And, yeah. But anyway, ab- aside from that, I'm curious from your point of view in terms of what the Bitcoin ecosystem, let's say whether that's technology or culture, what kinds of See in the Bitcoin ecosystem, like what kinds of developments would you like to see, for handling, let's say, ultra-high net worth for that kind of market? What kind of technology and culture shifts would you like to see in Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "53:44", "start": 3224.34, "text": "Yeah, the great question. I've got a few thoughts on that. One, from a, from a, at least from a US regulatory perspective, I'd like us to see, I'd like us to follow what Switzerland has done, providing a lot more clarity around the regulation of Bitcoin and other digital assets. I'd like to see, frankly, I'd like to see the SEC get off their asses and, provide some clarity to, to innovators in this space, you know, whether it's a spot ETF on Bitcoin, whether it is, providing clarity around lending facilities on Bitcoin. there's this murky lack of clarity on whether those lending facilities themselves are securities. And so, I'd like to see some clarity From the banking, from the, Commissioner, the, control of the currency. I'd like to see some guidance from various state banking commissions to allow trustees to hold Bitcoin as part of a trust's assets and to create a regulated regime for Bitcoin custodians in the US like they've done in Switzerland. I think as that happens, some of the, w-w-we'll start to get clarity and we'll start to get more entrance into that space. I think the- There's a ton of capital waiting to go into that space, but they're not gonna go in without clarity. I'd like to see, frankly, a lot of my colleagues in the legal and financial industries learn about Bitcoin, and understand it, and understand why it's not a shitcoin, why it's-- why it is fundamentally different from any other digital asset that's out there, and that Bitcoin isn't crypto and crypto isn't Bitcoin. They, they need to understand the distinction, and I'd like to see some maturing of my industry around Bitcoin as this Bedrock asset for wealth. I, you know, I also, I guess kind of at the ideological level, I know a lot of clients get turned off by what I perceive as some of the toxicity in the space. You know, Bitcoin should be the most nonpartisan issue out there, and often Bitcoin conversations get conflated with other conversations around personal decision making, whether it's eating meat or consuming seed oils or whether or not you get a vaccine. It's like that's such a dumb thing to talk about. I mean, let's talk about Bitcoin as this pristine asset that we've never seen before and orient the world towards that, because a lot of this other stuff that is ancillary, if at all, related to the Bitcoin world is a, is a partisan turnoff for a lot of people who could otherwise, who, who, who otherwise need to understand that Bitcoin is the best asset out there. and so if, if a client or if an individual's- First experience with Bitcoin is around some of the toxic nonsense that they see on, on Twitter or some of the stuff that passes for podcasts, then it's just we're shooting ourselves in the foot trying to walk forward." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:42", "start": 3401.9, "text": "I see. So, yeah, let's see. and, is there anything else in terms of like technology or stuff like that or, in terms of securing coins, is there anything there that you would like to see?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "56:53", "start": 3413.19, "text": "Yeah, and I, I have to confess, Stephan, I'm not a technology, I'm, you know, I'm, I One of my, one of the things I'd really like to see is ways to, via the network somehow, be able to protect the integrity of coins held in custody. I don't know if federated chameleon mints can help in some respects. I've listened to a couple of podcasts where that's been discussed, but Mount Gox happened well before I came to the Bitcoin party, but I understand it, you know, from, from lore, and we've certainly all seen other- exchanges collapse and, we've seen other real problems or potential problems with centralized custody. I'd like to find a way Technologically, such that if a Mount Gox were to happen again, or a Quadriga or something were to happen again, that the coins could be recovered somehow. And it's, you know, and I, I don't know again if it's like a Chompy and Mint type of, of solution where the tokens themselves are in a federated mint and a member of the federation is the custodian, and they collapse, they get hacked, they go bankrupt Bankrupt or whatever, they simply are gone from the mint or from the federation, and there's a replacement that plugs in. I don't, I don't know, I don't know what that would possibly look like, but I think that where I'd like to see development technologically is, I'd love to see Bitcoin development around how can we create a collaborative custodial pool in a, in a structure that qualifies as a qualified custodian for US regulatory purposes, but But if whoever the custodian is gets, gets compromised, then they can be replaced and the coins are still secure. I don't know what that could look like." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:52", "start": 3531.88, "text": "You know, you know what, actually, you might be describing, actually there's a product called Revolt. So funnily enough, they actually have something kind of like what you're speaking about. The idea is that you have a vault, and this might be held in-- It's kind of, think of it kind of like a multisig, but the idea is that there's like an escape or- Like a safe address. So if a theft is detected, you might be running some kind of watchtower, and then the coins are then yoinked out of that initial transaction spending away to actually take them back to a known safe address or to a known safe setup, let's say. So, in fact, they presented at, Baltic Honey Badger, recently. So that's kind of like an early stage of it, but they are trying to take that idea to sort of advance and make custody a little more secure potentially. And so people compare that with multisig, but it has certain trade-offs and potentially certain benefits, certain costs in terms of complexity. So that may actually be a real example there. Now that's early, but I think they're now becoming more public about what they're building. So that's actually an example which may be relevant for you." }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "59:58", "start": 3597.52, "text": "Yeah, I mean, that's, that's hugely interesting, and I'll, I'll check them out because the question I would then have is, okay, where is that secure, where is that secure address, and who's got ownership or control over that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:10", "start": 3610.61, "text": "It would, it would have been set up as a secondary, so the idea is this is to stop, to stop theft, right? So in the case of, this may not have helped in the case of Mt. Gox, right? Because apparently they weren't fractional, right? So they, they just, you know, there wouldn't have been coins to recover. But in the case of like a theft of an exchange, let's say, or a theft of, you know, coins from a custodian, this custodian could have, if they were using this Revolt idea, and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:40", "start": 3640.63, "text": "But it is potentially something related for you there. But, yeah, look, I think it, it was an interesting chat with you, Matthew. I think it's probably a good spot to wrap up here. So, yeah, if you've got any final thoughts for listeners and where can they find you online?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "01:00:54", "start": 3654.54, "text": "Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think my final thought would simply be, you know, take your Bitcoin wealth seriously. If it's, you know, if you, if you care enough about it to dedicate your life to it, it's worth planning for, whatever It's, you're not just gonna do it once and forget about it. You need to kinda keep iterating just as the network keeps iterating. people can find me mostly on LinkedIn, that's probably where I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, so I'm probably more on LinkedIn than anything else. I do post every once in a while on Twitter, at, my handle's just, McClintock underscore M, is my last name underscore M. I'm on LinkedIn just at Matt McClintock, and, you can connect Or Evergreen Legacy Planning. Yeah, I try to learn as much as I can about Bitcoin. I've dedicated my practice to this now. I made a pivot about two years ago to only focus on Bitcoin oriented planning because I, I fell down a rabbit hole five years ago and fell in love with it and, have spent the, the last several years just trying to get my head around how I can merge the world I know, which is estate planning and wealth management, to the world that it- That I love, which is Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:02:12", "start": 3732.61, "text": "Fantastic," }, { "speaker": "matthew_mcclintock", "time": "01:02:13", "start": 3733.07, "text": "well, thank you, Matt, for joining me. Stefan, thanks, it's been an honor, thanks for the opportunity." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:02:17", "start": 3737.71, "text": "Thanks again to those boosting the show on podcasting two point o apps such as Fountain and Podverse. I got some boosts here from, Michael, Matuleff, Nick Bitcoin, and CrumpUD. So thanks for the boosts. I'll donate those sats to some Bitcoin projects and get the show notes over at stefanlivera dot com. You can help out the show by sharing it with your family and" } ] }