{ "episodeId": "SLP426", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "stephan_livera": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "guest", "tag": "STEPHAN" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.55, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics, brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Today I'm speaking with Morgan Rochard. She is the founder of Origin Wealth Advisors, and she's joining the show and we chat about the world of financial planning, Bitcoin allocation percentages, monetary uncertainty, this idea or meme of making your money work for you, and why you wanna live in a Bitcoin world. So this show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, and Swan is putting on a conference. It's called Pacific Bitcoin. It's coming up really soon, 10th and 11th in November in LA, California. I'll be one of the hosts, and there'll be an awesome is coming, whether they are speakers or just people attending the show, there will be three tracks in terms of multiple stages going. This one is going to be optimized for fun, and make sure you turn up a bit early because there will be workshops and side events. There's all kinds of things going on, and if you're a premium ticket holder, there will be a VIP party. And Michael Saylor has mentioned he thinks this will be the event of the year, so don't miss it. Go and get your tickets. The website is PacificBitcoin dot com. It's code Livera for a discount. Interested in Bitcoin mining? Check out brains dot com. Brains offer a range of software and services. They offer BrainsPool, which is the first Bitcoin mining pool. It used to be called SlashPool, it's now called BrainsPool. They also have BrainsOS Plus. This is auto-tuning mining firmware that you can install on a range of Bitcoin mining ASICs. So if you go to the website, you can see which models are supported, and if you sign up on their mailing list, you'll find out when the support for new mining models is launched also. So with BrainzOS Plus, you can improve efficiency by as much as twenty-five percent. You can mine on any, any pool or get zero percent pool fees if you point your hash rate towards BrainzPool. They've also got a blog and other educational content that you can find on their site, it's b r a i i n s dot com. Are you still using a plain old block explorer? Mempool dot space shows you the full multi-layer ecosystem that Bitcoin is growing into. You can see the mempool, you can see the blockchain, you can even see second layer networks. networks like the Lightning Network. With Mempool.space, you don't even have to trust a third party. It's free and open source, so you can host it yourself using dif-different distributions like Umbrel, Raspiblitz, and others. Now, if you're with an enterprise, Mempool.space offers customized mempool instances with your company's branding, increased API limits, and more. Learn more over at mempool.space/enterprise. Morgan, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "02:41", "start": 161.17, "text": "Thanks for having me on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:43", "start": 162.79, "text": "Yeah, I'm a fan, love your work, and, love the work your husband's doing. Wanted to, you know, get you on and let's chat about, a bunch of things about what you're doing, how the whole world of financial advice and planning and how it relates to Bitcoin. So, yeah, just, I guess, for people who don't know you, can you just give us, just give us a brief background on yourself and, what you're doing these days?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "03:04", "start": 183.95, "text": "Yeah, definitely in the US, they're called registered investment advisors, so we're independent from the large broker dealers, the Merrill Lynch's, the Goldman Sachs's of the world. and basically, I started my career, as a trader actually, trading equity options, and then went from very fast money to very slow money to very, very, very slow money, as I like to put it, because I've just found a lot of meaning and purpose in my work and being able to help others achieve financial freedom and independence. I also, I also have a book, my book is the Personal Finance Quick Start Guide. it's a really, it's an overview, basically, of personal finance. It should help somebody get started if they can't work with me. and then I've just been trying to get as much involved as possible in the Bitcoin world. we mostly have Bitcoiners now coming through the practice. my husband and I do run a podcast called Bitcoin for Advisors, where we try to give as much, really relevant and important information, about- Bitcoin, what it is, how people can use it and so forth. it's really there to be an educational resource rather than it to just being sort of a, I don't know, additive podcast, but, so we have that as well. And, yeah, that's basically what I'm working on now. I mean, I'm, I'm working at this point to make sure that bitcoiners actually get the information that they need regarding how they can better their finances." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:31", "start": 271.47, "text": "Fantastic. And so I'm sure you probably get asked this question all the time, but," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:39", "start": 278.97, "text": "How much should people be allocated to Bitcoin? And as I understand, like, o-obviously you, you understand this, material a lot more deeply than I do, but the way I've heard it explained is things like, as an example, if you're younger, you can afford to take more risk. If you're older, you, you know, you need to be more, let's say, cautious. And there's also this concept of, let's say, matching what you have with what your future expected expenses are. So I guess if you had to give somebody a framework, I should think about when it comes to that question about allocation, percentage, as I'm sure, you know, people wanna hear people say a hundred percent allocation, but, maybe that's not suitable for everybody, is it?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "05:18", "start": 318.42, "text": "Yeah, so, in our practice, we have anywhere between zero to a hundred percent, in Bitcoin. So I think that my practice sort of sets itself apart as being very different than the average financial planning firm in that regard, but no, we don't typically tell people to, to allocate a hundred percent unless it really is right for their" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "05:40", "start": 339.51, "text": "there's this old rule of thumb in finance that you subtract your age from a hundred, and whatever you get is basically what you should put into equities. So if you're twenty years old, you subtract twenty from a hundred, and you would be eighty percent in equities. There's a lot of flaws in that, obviously, right? Because a twenty-year-old probably shouldn't even be twenty percent in bonds, especially in the current environment. and also it doesn't take into account something like Bitcoin, right? but you can sort of see though why that rule As you tend to get older, right, your expenses change, your time horizon changes and so forth. I think that your time horizon is actually the most important thing when it comes to allocating. So a long time horizon enables you to hold something like Bitcoin, because, right, if you were to, let's say, you wanted to buy a house in one year, and you had a very short time horizon, one year is very short in the financial world, even if it's very long for other people. So if you bought Bitcoin, let's say today, and then Bitcoin went down to ten thousand One's probably naysaying now that I'm saying that, but it's possible, right, that that could happen. Then now you have fifty percent less, to go buy your home. So it's not a good vehicle, right, for saving for something that's short term. It's a very good vehicle though for, let's say, you're twenty years old and you wanna retire, in, you know, thirty, forty years, right? That would be a great vehicle because you have a very long time horizon. Or, you want to leave multi-generational wealth What we like to do in our practice is something called asset li- asset liability matching. And basically what that means is that you match your asset, what you're going to invest in, with your future liability of what you're going to be spending it on and how long and how far out that expense is going to take place." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:26", "start": 446.0, "text": "I see. So I think another concept that's related to all of this is how we express uncertainty, right? Because when you talk to a typical no-coiner or pre-coiner, they might be thinking of it like, \"Oh, Oh, I wanna keep that USD in the bank account or the USD physical cash under the mattress, proverbially, because that's what they feel, quote unquote, safer with. I'm curious your thoughts on that idea around uncertainty versus, in, in the Bitcoin context, what uncertainty means." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "07:57", "start": 476.94, "text": "Yeah, sure. So I like to think of it all as trade-offs. So in the current environment, right, one dollar is one dollar, right, at any given time, but we don't really think about the fact that our dollar has lost purchasing power. So I think, like, if you think about the last decade and what's happened to your dollar, what you were doing ten years ago versus what you're doing now, first of all, it's really hard to even look back ten years on what you were able to spend money on. But if you really think about it, so like when I think about my career, I've been in finance now for fifteen years, I've been working now for about fifteen years. About ten years ago, I could afford a lot less than I can today, but that's a function of the fact that I made a lot" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "08:39", "start": 519.09, "text": "My way up in finance, but things actually also cost less. Like I was still able to afford a nice suit or, which I had to wear when I used to go to offices and things like that. So there's a difference now between your purchasing power of today and your purchasing power of ten years ago. But because it's not front and center and in our minds, it's not like when you log into your bank account, you can see, \"Oh, I have, seventy-five percent less purchasing power than I had ten years ago,\" right? You just can't, you don't It kinda depends what you're spending money on as well. So if you happen to spend money on, like, bitcoiners happen to really like eating meat, right? Meat prices have increased substantially over the last ten years relative to maybe some of the other foods out there. So your personal inflation rate is gonna look very different than, let's say, somebody who's eating beans all the time, right? So from that regard, like, it's very difficult for them to put, to, for, for like this dollar to even mean anything when you're, let's say, logging into your bank account and trying Can buy. If your dollar, for whatever reason, when you put it into a bank account, actually gave you what your personal inflation rate was, I think people would be very quick to say, \"Oh, maybe I don't wanna save in dollars.\" But because that's not the way that it works, and because it's sort of this slow creep that happens over time, right? We can see a difference between what we spent ten years ago and what we are spending today, but we can't really see that much of a difference between maybe last year or the year before that. so it You log into your, account, which hopefully you're not holding your keys on exchanges, but let's say you did, you would be able to immediately see, hey, I spent ten thousand dollars and now I only have seven thousand dollars, right? So it's very different, especially if you're pricing things in dollars. the other thing to consider though is that there's a trade-off here, right? The biggest trade-off is that you're trading monetary uncertainty, at monetary policy uncertainty in the dollar fiat world for what I like to call monetary policy certainty in the Bitcoin world So the trade-off there is that it's a growth currency now and there's volatility there, but you know what the monetary policy is going to be. You know you're not going to be diluted out. So if you have a long time horizon, then that's a risk that you are able to take, whereas, with the dollar, you're-- there's really no way to know what your dollar is gonna be worth in the future." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:59", "start": 659.45, "text": "I see. And so, yeah, I think that's a great way to frame it. It's around monetary certainty and perhaps for people who are newer to Bitcoin Maybe you have less conviction about this thing, and perhaps that happened, that's a natural process. I'm sure you've seen that as well, or even, people talk about, Paul Tudor Jones, he started with one percent, and then later, I think a year later, he was saying, \"Oh, go five percent.\" I'm sure that's, that's a similar thing. Well, I'm curious, do, do you see that in your clients and people you talk to?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:29", "start": 688.99, "text": "Yeah, so what I tend to see is either clients get into it and they are fine with" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:39", "start": 698.95, "text": "want to buy more, right? As soon as they-- then they start going down the rabbit hole, they start researching it, they start reading books, and the next thing you know, they're asking to increase their allocation and increase their allocation and so forth. So generally, what we have is people start with somewhere between a one to ten percent position, depending on their time horizon, their risk tolerance, their understanding of the technology and so forth, and then from there, it usually doesn't decrease. It either is one of these things where we-- especially in a time like now, where we To maintain that position, or we're actually adding to the position and so forth. So, but I never see people just say, \"Eh, I'm out.\" and that's because I, I think it's a testament to, like, to the technology itself, right? Because every time I have conversations with clients about these things, even if they're coming nervous and they are ready to sell their Bitcoin, when we actually sit down and talk about it and what it is and what it can do for their financial picture and so forth, people are very excited about that. They financial system, even if it's in just a small way in their portfolio, that at least they have that as a backup in case all this other stuff goes down, right? So it's, it's one of those things where for some people it's just that, and for other people it becomes what it is to somebody like you and me, where, you know, it, it becomes really like a, a very large part of your life, and, and we've seen that over and over again with people where, or Bitcoin kind of takes over them, right? And it becomes really" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:09", "start": 788.91, "text": "Interesting one too, because from what I hear and what I've read, and even what I've seen when I talk to other people, it seems that it's a common tendency for people to overstate their risk tolerance. As in, they can go into it really gung ho. So somebody, maybe people who are new, maybe they can go really gung ho and then, then they hit their first bear cycle, and now you've, you've faced that real gut check of, are you willing to keep holding and keep stacking? I'm curious, has that been your experience as well in terms of when Talk to people who are coming down the rabbit hole or thinking about how much Bitcoin they should hold or keep holding through a bear cycle?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "13:46", "start": 825.64, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I think that the bear cycles do, they do some, they do damage really to people's psyches, I have to be honest. the first one does at least. So, what I've noticed is that the fr- there's really kinda no other way around that. I mean, there's just like the first one that anyone goes through, it really messes with you because you spent time, either like, for my Couple of hours with me, and I gave them some other resources to read, and they go off and read them on their own, so they probably maybe put fifteen hours worth of Bitcoin time in, let's call it, at a max. And then, you know, they're like, \"Okay, I'm excited about it, I'm ready to do this,\" and they put some in, and then, you know, the price drops seventy percent or whatever. And so then you're kind of shaken to your core, right, of like, \"Hey, I, you know, I heard And when it's your first bear cycle, it's hard to understand that it's, o- it's only going to be your first bear cycle. So from there, it definitely takes more, I, I think, and, and I think that this is the process that really everybody goes through, is either, either at that point you sell it, right? Or you decide to reach out to the community in some other way. for my clients, that's reaching out to me and we have more conversations about it, or finding more books or finding more resources and really trying to like harden your position" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "15:09", "start": 908.91, "text": "Can do that once they get through the first one, they can get through any of them, because the first one just, it just rocks you and it just makes you, it makes you reevaluate whether or not your research process was sound." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:23", "start": 923.34, "text": "Yeah, that's a very fair way to put it. I find for people, it's their first extended sort of bear cycle, right? Because they might sort of be going through that volatility, but then once you've actually gone down from the top, let's say seventy percent or eighty percent And then it stays there for a little while, that's when you really have to actually find your why. You have to find your real reason. Why am I holding this thing? Or why am I still stacking this thing? And once you've come out of that, on the other side of that, then you sort of feel, \"Oh, okay, I kind of get this. This is how the cycle goes.\" And I think the other point I would just add is, there's maybe there's an irony to it that like the time that a new coiner comes in is probably the time when Because that's just what drew them in, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "16:12", "start": 971.55, "text": "for sure. We were at a wedding earlier this year and Bitcoin obviously came up because that's all we talk about. And, this person asked us what, like, she basically she had bought at the top and she was curious how long she felt she should hold to make her money back essentially. So this was, you know, earlier this year, so really truly the top, was what she bought. And so my comment was, you know, at least two years. And I was thinking like, I said that I, what I should have said was like, you know, four to five years. but in my head, I was like, you know, I was trying to be nice about it, and I said two years, and she was like, \"Two years? Oh my gosh, you know, that's the long-- I can't possibly hold this thing for two years to make my money back.\" So I think that there, I'm, I'm bringing this story up just because I think that we get into these situations where we think that because we have to hold it to make our money back" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "17:09", "start": 1028.93, "text": "Any other aspects of your life, hopefully besides Bitcoin, that you can focus on during this time, and in the meantime, if you can automate, and add to your position, like by doing dollar cost averaging or so forth at a place like Swan, or, you know, you can just, even if you, if you don't wanna dollar cost average, right, just hang out, right? Just hang out, don't look at your position, move your, coins off exchange, put them in cold storage, don't think about it, right? And then just go about your" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "17:39", "start": 1058.93, "text": "Did a study, and I'm sure it applies to Bitcoin too, where they basically, they were, they were curious of their retail account holders who, did the best, who had the best returns, and what they found was that the inactive accounts and the dead account holders were the ones who did the best. and it just, it, it's sort of a testament to like how our brains can just totally mess with us and make it so that we can't, we can't hold a position even if we have conviction in it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:06", "start": 1085.63, "text": "I think you make a really good point there. I think Of people, you know, if you're not actively working in the space, probably the best thing you can do is obviously make sure you've got your cold storage set up, and then just go away for a few years and come back, and then you'll be like amazed at how far things have come, and now you're probably way up compared to where you were. But the difficulty for a lot of people is actually achieving that, right? I think for some people, it's, it's a lot of impatience, and this is something I have seen as well, even when I'm coaching somebody" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:39", "start": 1118.95, "text": "It's a long term thing. This is your long term savings, like ideally ten years plus, and, you know, hold your own keys and all this stuff. And they'll say, \"Okay, Stefan, yeah, yeah, I get that, but like, what can I-- can I do something now? Like, is there anything I can, like, you know, get a quick win now?\" And it's, it's challenging, I'm sure, like, to deal with the, impatience, that is common today, and, you know, arguably where" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:09", "start": 1149.37, "text": "To coach someone or give them tips on the path." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "19:12", "start": 1152.35, "text": "Yeah, I really do believe that that's when having a financial planner, well, at least one who understands Bitcoin really does help, because whenever my clients have issues or questions about something like this, they call us before they make this decision, right? Like without exception, they call us. They don't just unilaterally sell their positions or do whatever it is that they wanna do. Like we made a plan for a reason, so at the very least, they're going to honor that by having a discussion with me about that, why they wanna Change that plan, but they're not gonna just change the plan without having that conversation. So I think what most people need is just some sort of roadblock. It doesn't necessarily have to be a financial planner who's like, \"Hey, don't sell your Bitcoin, you're gonna regret this in the future, right?\" It's just some sort of roadblock to keep you from making a, a bad decision. And if you can delay as much as you can delay that bad decision, the more you're able to do that, the easier it is for you to continue to delay, and the example for this because I think it, it kind of applies and especially for, in this like me, me, me, now, now, now culture that we have. So what we tell people who have trouble spending on, on pla- let's say like somewhere like Amazon, where you can literally buy anything at any time and have it be delivered to your door next day, right? It's like such an instant culture that Amazon has created around spending. And so what we generally tell people is delete the app on your phone. And so when people delete the app on their phone, what happens is that" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "20:39", "start": 1239.05, "text": "It's really annoying to not be able to just take your phone out of your pocket and spend the money, you have to like actually go, you know, sit at your desktop. Some people figure out, okay, well, I can go on, on, like, the browser on my phone and I can do it there, but it's still annoying to go on the browser on your phone and do it rather than to do it in the app, right? They've made it really qu- like seamless in the app versus, because they don't want you being on the browser, they don't wanna" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "21:09", "start": 1268.99, "text": "block there, right, so that they can't go and spend. if that doesn't work, what we generally tell people is like, not only should you delete the app, but you should also save things in your cart for later. and we tell people to do that because it's then yet another roadblock, okay? Like, fine, if you wanna buy that, that's great, but put it in your cart, save it for later, and then come back in two days. And most people, when they come back in two days, they're like, I don't really need that, right? Because you put enough of a roadblock and a delay into it to make sure that you can mitigate that behavior, that it's like that now instant I must have this thing behavior, and then when that like kind of wears off in your brain, you realize, okay, I actually didn't need that, you know, cat coaster, and I'm gonna be okay without it, and I can move on with my life. And it's kind of the same thing with, with holding investments, right? It's very easy to get, have like our brain tell us," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "22:02", "start": 1322.45, "text": "I don't sell my Bitcoin, I need to go into fiat immediately, like I have to get out of my Bitcoin position or my stocks or whatever it is that you're holding, right? And immediately, convert back because I'm afraid of what's going on in the environment. But if you're able to delay it, right? The market generally changes over time, so the more you're able to put those roadblocks in and delay, the better off you're gonna be over time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:21", "start": 1341.12, "text": "And as I understand, this is something I saw from some of the Boglehead forums as well, where they" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:33", "start": 1352.51, "text": "Well, where for many people, the point is staying the course actually was more successful, as you mentioned, with the customers who were inactive or, sadly dead, they, in an ironic way, they performed the best in their investments because they simply stayed the course and actually one of the value adds for having some kind of financial planner or advisor, a person to help you, is that they are helping you stay the course, and maybe that's where the value comes from for, in, for that customer." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "23:00", "start": 1380.13, "text": "Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that I get- I guess I'm mixed on that because as a financial planner, I like to think that we add value in a lot of other ways as well. But for the average advisor, right? The average advisor's job is to get you into an asset allocation, get you into that asset allocation as quickly as possible, right? Because we live in a fiat world and we need to take our money that's rapidly losing purchasing power and put it either into some sort of, you know, spending or investment account, right? And then get you into an asset allocation and have you stay in that asset allocation as long as possible. A lot of things that are wrong with that, and there's also a lot of things that are right with that, right? There's the thing that's wrong with that is that we shouldn't live in a world where we need to invest our money as quickly as possible, and that we need somebody to be like, \"Hey, move your money from here to here as quickly as you can, \"because inflation is rapidly reducing the amount of money that you, you'll be able to use in the future, right? So there's, there's something wrong with the system for sure, but the person helping somebody" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "24:02", "start": 1442.49, "text": "Downturns and so forth that happen in the market. So that person adds value in that way. So there's that form of financial advisor. The next step is to get somebody who's a financial planner. So the financial planner does everything that the advisor does, but they also actually do planning around other aspects of your life, so making sure that you have enough money to retire, or making sure that you have enough money to, if, you know, taking a trip around the world is your thing and you want to do that in ten years, right? Making sure that you've saved and invested appropriately so" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "24:33", "start": 1472.65, "text": "Some sort of financial freedom. So a lot of people who come into my practice, it's because they're in some transition of sorts. they don't necessarily like the job that they're in and they wanna go somewhere else, they wanna start a business, they want more flexibility and freedom with their time and their energy. So, your financial planner is gonna help you make those transitions and they're going to help you, get from point A basically to point B, in addition to helping you invest your money." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:57", "start": 1496.94, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Unchained Capital is a Bitcoin native The US. Now they can help you with setting up a multi-signature vault, meaning you hold two out of three keys into a vault, giving you that additional peace of mind that you have removed single points of failure. You could potentially make a mistake and not lose all your coins. So with Unchained, you can use the concierge onboarding and get set up with a multi-signature vault. They'll do a call with you and ship you the hardware if you need that. Now Unchained Capital also offer loans for people who want to borrow against their Bitcoin, and they've recently launched Trading desk available in over thirty US states for those of you who want to buy Bitcoin directly into your vault. So if you're interested, go to the website, it's unchained dot com. Blockstream is creating Blockstream Green, it's an industry-leading Bitcoin and liquid wallet. Gain access to powerful features such as multi-signature security, full node verification, and Tor support. Blockstream Green is available for iOS, Android, or desktop, and with their multi-sig shield feature, one key is held on your device and another is held on Blockstream's servers. Enabling you to protect your wallet with two-factor authentication, they also have time locks or a third key backup to ensure you still retain full ownership of your funds. Now they also have integration with hardware wallets such as Blockstream, Jade, Ledger or Trezor devices to get you the best of both worlds, cold storage of your private keys combined with Blockstream Green's suite of features and multi-signature security. So Blockstream Green also gives you that choice of whether you want to use single signature or multi-signature. So if you go to the website, you can download it now for iOS, Android Or desktop, that's blockstream dot com slash green. Now, when it comes to Bitcoin hardware security, my favorite is the Coldcard. It's available over at coinkite dot com. The Coldcard looks like a little calculator. You can use it to store your Bitcoin private keys, and it can sign your Bitcoin transactions. And you can do this using air gap methods, such as the micro SD card, or you can use NFC support if you're comfortable with that. It, the newest version has more RAM and a faster CPU to make for faster signing of transactions. transactions, particularly if you're doing big multisig transactions, this could be really handy for you. It comes with a range of different features and possibilities such as a BrickMe pin, a JuraS pin, Bip85, SeedXOR, and all kinds of features. They also have other products such as the TapSigner and the SatsCard and the BlockClock, which you might have seen in the background of Jack Dorsey's congressional appearances, and it's also a really cool device just to keep an eye on various things in the Bitcoin ecosystem. You can get all of this Over at CoinKite dot com. And now back to the show with Morgan. Right, and thanks for the clarification there around, the planning and advising, distinction. yeah, I wasn't as familiar with that. Also, with the, I think there's a common mindset that you should quote-unquote make your money work for you, and I think this is a very common mindset, like we see this, and maybe this is from people who aren't as familiar with this world. Can you explain how you're seeing that? Is that, is that a problem or is it just that people aren't thinking about it the right way? What's, how should people think about this idea that you should make your money work for you?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "28:11", "start": 1691.25, "text": "Yeah, that saying is such a fiat saying to me. It's, it kind of makes me laugh, but yeah, it's like that, that one, make your money work for you, multiple streams of income, there's a bunch of those out there where, it's the fiat world that we live in that has basically created" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "28:31", "start": 1710.56, "text": "Because otherwise, our money literally becomes garbage, right? Like it, it's not worth anything. So, yeah, I think in the current environment that we live in, for sure, we have to, put our money to work, quote unquote, which basically means find investments, and that can be anything from, you know, something like Bitcoin to stocks to, you know, something like real estate people often like to get into. I think what's often sort of not discussed enough is the fact that, generally people like to bring up real estate as the thing to do. and real estate actually ha-is basically, it's running a business, and people don't often think about real estate as such. So, people think about real estate as, \"Oh, I'm gonna go buy a property, I'll use a little bit of leverage, and I'll have this stream of income, and I won't have to do anything.\" and that's just not what occurs. real estate is a huge business here, in the US and every, you know, and globally, there are, you, you have basically top line revenue, right, Property taxes and homeowners insurance, and just off the top my head, your tenant's gonna break stuff, right? That they always do that. There's gonna be some line items there. You're going to have to update your property every so often to make sure that's still relevant for renters in the market. So there's a lot of other line items that come in there to then have a bottom line, which you then pay taxes on that bottom line. So I think that, yes, definitely put your money to work, quote unquote, but maybe find something that you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:01", "start": 1800.56, "text": "A little bit of the idea you were mentioning is this, let's, this cult of passive income, right? This idea of, just, you know, just sit back and do nothing when the reality is very much that, in some sense, it's all active income, right? You have to spend time managing it, whether it's a property portfolio or a stock portfolio or something else. But I think this also brings up another idea that perhaps, and this is the sad reality of the fiat world and the high level of inflation we're living under now, that it's very difficult To actually save your way to wealth nowadays, it's almost very much a, a requirement almost that you have some kind of business or some kind of equity and some thing that's going up as well, because you can't, you just, you're not gonna make it by just, not spending, on coffees every morning, right? Like, how, how do you explain that for somebody that they have to be looking at ways to earn more as opposed to just purely saving?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "30:57", "start": 1856.68, "text": "Yeah, so the math on that, the way that it works out is that if you start with zero. And you were able to save twenty-two and a half percent of your income, you will be able to retire in twenty years, assuming that you have invested it properly, right? And you didn't buy a bunch of NFTs that went to zero, right? I mean, let's assume, that's part of the assumption there. so, but that's very difficult for people, twenty-two and a half percent of your income to put that into perspective. So, let's just make the, the numbers easy here. So you make a hundred thousand dollars, let's say, Do have to pay state tax, and you're paying FICA and so forth and everything else here in the US, you probably have at least a twenty-five to thirty percent tax rate right off the top. So, right away you're gone, you've gone from a hundred thousand to seventy thousand. You also need to be saving twenty-two and a half percent of pre-tax income, not post-tax income, so that's another twenty-two and a half, thousand dollars that you should be saving on that. So now you're looking at instead of I have a hundred thousand dollars to spend Hundred, right? So it's significantly less. I think what happens to people is that you see that top line number and we think we have a lot of money, and it turns out that after taxes and what really should be a healthy savings for most people, which is at least twenty percent of their pre-tax income, there's really not a whole lot left over. and so, yeah, I guess in that world, if you want to, the way you wanna make sure that you can save is that you're not gonna eat, you know, have a latte every single We're not talking about big numbers here, right, that are really gonna move the needle. what's gonna move the needle is gonna be, okay, I wanna retire or I wanna have much more in savings, I really, truly wanna get ahead. So now I'm moving that lever from twenty-two and a half percent of my income to, you know, forty percent of my income in savings, right? that's gonna significantly change things. But if you, or we're going back to that hundred thousand dollar question here, right? Now we're talking about forty thousand dollars in savings You have significantly less, leftover that you'll be able to spend. So generally, that's why increasing income really does work. yes, you're gonna pay more in taxes and so forth, and, you know, there's no way around that, and there's some ways to, like, put savings into pre-tax ways and so forth. But in increasing income, right? You can still maintain, an okay lifestyle, right? We're not talking about, you know, flying private jets and so forth from increasing your income. We're just talking about, okay, I'm gonna It towards savings, which at the very, at, I mean, at the margins, actually really difficult for people to do that. but let's say somebody actually could do that, they're going to be much better off from doing so, just because of that function of the lever of like how much more you can save from increasing income rather than how much less you can, or how much you can actually save from, from just savings alone. That said, we do live in a culture where, like I said earlier, it's, you know, now, now, now, me, me" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "34:01", "start": 2040.6, "text": "And staff and so forth. So, I mean, I think like we're starting to get away from the stuff culture, but, I mean, not so if you look at Amazon's revenues and results and so forth. People are still spending like crazy, they're just less likely to admit that they're doing that, and they're more likely to say publicly that they're spending on experiences. And experiences is still a now, now, now, me, me, me thing, and I'm not, you know, here to take away everybody's experiences and so forth or make it such that, you" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "34:31", "start": 2070.58, "text": "Put into perspective, right, an experience is gonna cost a lot more money than, let's say, your daily latte. And if you get a lot of pleasure out of your daily latte, right, maybe, you know, mitigating how many experiences you have per year or per decade is going to actually move the needle quite a bit more than, you know, you just saying, \"I'm, I'm gonna make my coffee at home and I'm gonna suffer through it miserably.\" So I think that there's a lot of levers that people can pull, like maybe increasing some income and decreasing" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "35:01", "start": 2100.76, "text": "I think it's really difficult in the environment that we live in because, like, people are trying to keep up with others, whether they see it or not, right? like one of the examples I like to use is, one of my clients' children, they were telling me that, like, they love going to really expensive restaurants. This person's in their early twenties, right? Like, a person in their early twenties making forty thousand dollars a year shouldn't be eating at Daniel in New York City, right? Like, that's just not the way it's supposed If this offends people, but like, that's gonna move the needle a lot more, like, or, or make it such that you go into debt, right, to have these experiences, quote unquote, that you think that you're supposed to have because you work really hard and you're entitled to it. I think that people get into these traps of, \"I work so hard, I deserve it,\" and they don't think about the repercussions on the other side of what that could mean." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:51", "start": 2151.39, "text": "Yeah, a lot of excellent points there. I think people have grown accustomed to using cheap debt to fund a is perhaps above their means, and what we are perhaps now seeing is the cost of debt is rising a lot. Where in, let's say, some of the recent years, it looked like debt was just so cheap and, oh, wow, what a bargain! Or you're, you're, you would feel like a fool for not using that cheap debt, and, you know, people could argue about what's like a productive use of that debt if you're using it to try to earn more money with a business or things like this, but I think the market collectively is going to- Experience some more pain now, now that, it seems that, interest costs are rising back up again." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "36:38", "start": 2197.64, "text": "Yeah, definitely. I mean, the housing market, for instance, is like just the first one, obviously, it's gonna be affected by this. So if, basically, if you-- So I think I saw that the, the thirty-year mortgage ticked over seven percent recently, I think it was last week. And the difference is basically that if you had bought a home two years ago, the same home, same price even And because prices haven't actually, calmed down to reflect what's going on in the interest rate market for the most part yet, you're basically spending twice as much now with a seven percent thirty-year fixed as you were two years ago if you bought the same place for the same price. so in some ways, it kind of makes sense the craziness that was going on in the housing market while interest rates were low, right? Because people bidding up and waiving inspections and taking homes without even seeing them, right? Like, it seems insane and crazy. But if you think about, had they waited and they had been a little bit more careful about how they were purchasing a home, their interest rate would be more than double what it was two years ago. And that's just one aspect of people's financial plan. It also tends to be the part of people's financial plan that can really tank them. We like to keep, for our clients, we generally like to keep people's housing, expenses less than twenty percent of pre-tax income, and that's everything. That's your mortgage, your, your, both your principal and interest of Your property taxes, your homeowners insurance, any HOA fees that you may have, your utilities are included in that, and maintenance, which people don't include because maintenance isn't actually a cost that you see, but maintenance of people's homes is generally somewhere between one and three percent of the purchase price, is what we've seen for the most part, and an older home is gonna be closer to three percent, and a newer home is still gonna be closer to one percent, even on these new construction homes, people are still finding one percent in maintenance that they need to, to do on their homes." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "38:31", "start": 2310.56, "text": "category of people's budgets. So if expense, like if basically that expense by the function of interest rates has now doubled that category, right? It's gonna become very unaffordable for people, or what they're gonna do is they're gonna stretch their budgets even more to buy that home that they think that they're supposed to have, and it's going to leave very much less left over for savings and possibly put people into more debt." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:53", "start": 2332.93, "text": "I see, yeah. And so a lot of it just comes down to, at a fundamental level, people just living above their means and not being conservative enough, I think, with their living expenses or even with the homes they buy, the cars they buy, and things like this. I know another common trap that I've heard of is people are doing things based on, \"Oh, what's the monthly payment going to be? And can I afford this monthly payment?\" And that sort of ends up being kind of a scam or kind of a, a, a trick or a slight manipulation by, let's say or the, you know, people selling houses is because they sell it to people based on, \"Oh, look, it's within your monthly minimum payment,\" but they don't understand that the cost is being built into that interest rate that they are paying. And so really, it's what-- the, the question people should be asking is, \"What interest rate am I paying on this debt?\" Right? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "39:42", "start": 2382.29, "text": "Yeah, for sure. And looking at the total picture too, because like the payment isn't the only thing that you spend. maybe for p-- some people with their cars, it might be the only thing that they spend for quite a while until the car payment rolls off, and then the car starts to have problems, and then they start, you know, needing to pay for the car to have maintenance. but for the most part, like people can get through the first five-ish years with a new car and not have to, you know, pay any additional maintenance costs. With a home," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "40:12", "start": 2411.89, "text": "Or you're the one out there picking the weeds, right? And so you're spending your Saturday and Sunday doing that, or you're hiring a gardener at the very least, right? So that's just like one basic expense that people have. most people, they don't wanna be cleaning their homes, you know, every single day. Most people have somebody come in, let's say even once a month or a few times a year to come and clean their home and do like a really nice deep clean, right? So like even on a new home, you're gonna have that because you" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "40:38", "start": 2438.49, "text": "live" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "40:42", "start": 2441.87, "text": "Incentives to spend their money. It kind of goes back to like the money being broken here, because like the whole reason why we live in an inflationary environment is because the government wants you to go out and spend your money, and they want you to do it to stimulate the economy, and they don't want you to have incentives to save as much as you should be spending. And yet people find so many amazing ways to spend their money, right? Like, there's really, there's kind of no end, there's no limit, especially on like people's homes, right? There's so many" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "41:12", "start": 2472.17, "text": "Like the, the list never ends. and if you're not spending money on that, you're finding something else to spend your money on, because when you're not working, you're, you're, you know, most people are spending their time figuring out how to spend their money. and that's just basically the, the environment that we live in. And so if the incentives would be aligned back to people actually like being forced to save rather than being forced to spend all the time, I think that people would still spend their money, right? Because psychologically, we want more, we, and we are constantly in a situation where we're being presented with, you know, amazing opportunities to go and buy something, and we have to say no to those opportunities. And it's a lot easier to say no, obviously, when your money is increasing in purchasing power than when your money is decreasing in purchasing power. But for most people, they're still gonna say yes, right? And so the in-the incentives that the government has created for us to spend our money, they, they don't need to be there for people to spend, I guess, is what I'm saying here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:09", "start": 2528.53, "text": "Yeah, In a way, you're fighting this uphill battle because you're having to tell a lot of people, \"Hey, you need to learn to live with less, right? Like you just have to just learn to make certain trade-offs, and, and find ways to either get more for less or just spend less, like fundamentally look at the big wins that you can have in terms of your budget where you can look to save a lot of money, whether it's on your house or your housing, wherever you're living, or your car or public transport, if that's a possibility, you know, doing Or, not buying a fancy pants car, just getting a, you know, a, a sort of a solid, you know, car. The other point as well is that it's easy to get attention by sort of posting about the big glam thing, but in practice, that's not actually what's financially sound for most people." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "43:00", "start": 2580.14, "text": "Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, I think that it's, it's hard when you, when we do live in like an Instagram, TikTok environment, when you're seeing what other people are doing, and those experiences and You know, large fixed expenses that other people have seem very exciting, and they could really, truly derail a financial plan. one of the things that I always like to come back to with my clients, and really with myself, is we have everything we need. We truly have everything we need, right? Like, if we really look around our homes and the environments that we live in, right? Yes, there's going to be things that we want, that are missing in our lives, but, but for the most part, we do have everything that we need, and To that really can ground people in appreciating what they have around them rather than constantly wanting new, new, new and more, more, more. One of the examples I like to use, especially for women, is like how much clothing you have in your closet. For a lot of women, right, it always seems like I don't have anything to wear. I need to figure out something else, like I need to go buy something new because, you know, all the stuff in my closet is, is old. And for most people, right, like one of the things I like to bring up is, Most people don't actually wear everything they have in their closet, right? Every single two weeks or whatever it is that they do laundry, and then they do laundry and they literally replenish everything else in their closet, or like they have, you know, two t-shirts left over and a pair of underwear, right? Most people don't live like that. and so, like, it, it helps to come back to like, I, I do have everything that I need, I just don't have everything that I want, and that's okay, right? It's okay to not have everything that It may feel like that sometimes, but like we're adults, right? We should be able to come back to what's important, decide whether or not that thing we want is actually something that we really either can afford or should have, for whatever reason, or is just something, you know, that we want and we might never have it, and that's okay." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:00", "start": 2699.86, "text": "Yeah. So on the other aspect of it, I'm also curious to get your thoughts on the negative real yielding debt that we are, you know, the world is sort of- In this weird position where things might look okay from a nominal perspective, meaning the number looks like it's above zero, but once we consider the real number, as in adjusting for inflation, people are actually going backwards in terms of purchasing power. How do you communicate that for people that, you know, maybe they, they aren't as financially savvy and they're not as familiar with this idea of looking at things in real terms?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "45:39", "start": 2738.91, "text": "Yeah, that's actually one of the most difficult conversations To have, because, looking at things in nominal terms is very easy and very deceptive and really truly what our brains want to do, right? We want to say, \"Oh, iBonds, for instance, which are like kind of the rage right now because they're yielding around ten percent, and we're like, \"Oh, iBonds, they're yielding ten percent, what a great investment! I'll just give the government my money, they'll lock it up for a year, and truly actually they lock it up for five years because if you withdraw at any given but that's side note. but yeah, but people see that ten percent number and they think, \"What a great idea! \" And what they're not thinking is, \"Why are the government-- Why is the government issuing bonds at ten percent? These i-bonds? \" Is it because inflation is actually higher than they're saying, right? Is it actually because like CPI is ticking, quote unquote, you know, eight point three percent or whatever it is, but in-inflation actually is higher and therefore, in order for some people to make actually a zero percent return, It's a very different conversation to talk about that than it is to talk about, you know, oh, how exciting is ten percent yield? yeah, ten percent yield is really exciting when inflation is two percent. I totally agree. Ten percent yield isn't as exciting when inflation is ten percent for sure, because you're basically what you're saying is, okay, I'm gonna put my money here and it's just going to maintain. But because we haven't seen interest rates like ten percent in such a long time, it's very exciting for people to see these things. So I think actually the government Can get their two percent interest rate that they can get on their high yield savings account, you know, even though really, truly they're losing six percent by putting their money there. the other fact is that it actually makes people, it forces people to invest beyond their risk tolerance. and time and time again, we've seen this with an inflationary currency is basically that people actually want to live in something like a Bitcoin world, they just don't know it. And the reason why they don't know it is because they think Bitcoin's so volatile, oh, I can't possibly hold" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "47:42", "start": 2861.97, "text": "World where the, you know, where Bitcoin was super volatile, that's so scary to me. But what they really truly want, and for a lot of people what they want, is they wanna go out, make some money, take it home, put some of it in their mattress and spend the rest and not worry about the one, the amount of money that they put in their mattress, right? Like that's where the mattress money thing even came from, is that people were doing that. and that used to be an okay thing when your, you know, when your currency wasn't being, you" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "48:12", "start": 2891.87, "text": "Because people actually want this, you know, this deflationary currency, but they don't know that they want it, but they also don't wanna take the risk associated with buying something like that, or even buying something like stocks. What happens is that because we live in this fiat inflationary world, people are forced to invest beyond their risk tolerance. and so, I mean, I'm seeing it even in my own practice, right, where people probably would prefer to have bonds, but we're in an environment where I don't know where these are going, right? We don't, we don't, advocate for that at all. And in fact, generally when people are holding bonds, we're holding bonds because we're gonna go buy something short term. And anything else that's long term money is invested in something like stocks and Bitcoin. And it's-- And then it's having those conversations around why you're invested a little bit beyond your risk tolerance, and that's because of the time horizon effect." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:01", "start": 2940.86, "text": "Yeah, I think you make a lot of sense there, because fundamentally, it's not that clear what happens with bonds, right? Do bondholders eventually get wreck" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:12", "start": 2951.91, "text": "Very, very high debt levels, and it's not clear that it will be repaid the honest way. It may well be repaid the dishonest way by printing a lot of it, such that the amount you get paid back in is worth a lot less in purchasing power terms. In what you can buy and eat is gonna be a lot less than what you get paid back. So all these people who are buying ten-year bonds or even longer duration bonds, could be in a lot of trouble." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "49:37", "start": 2976.91, "text": "Definitely. There's a very dark example of this that, maybe your listeners already know of But I'm bringing up, anyways. So in World, during World War II or when World War II first started, the Japanese decided they were going to, issue insurance policies, on any of their citizens that were willing to buy it, basically, and it was a way for the government to raise money. So basically what they did is they, they issued these denominations of different types of insurance policies, and then people would basically, they would take their hard-earned cash and they would give it over to the government, and then the government immediately used that to basically finance the war machine We obviously know that they lost the war, and in fact, many, many Japanese passed away during the, during World War II, and obviously the government wasn't able to make good on those promises. And so when I think, I mean, I know it's kind of, it's a very dark example to use, and, you know, hopefully, you know, the US doesn't enter into nuclear war and so forth, but like, is the US actually going to be able to repay these debts? And the answer is really no, right? Like, the answer is that they are going to Where they, you know, basically inflate people out of their money in order to pay this back. And they, thankfully now for them, they have the printing press in which case they could do that. But at some point, right, the music will stop. It's one of these things that I talked about a long time ago. I had a colleague, we were sitting and talking about interest rates, this is back in twenty fourteen, so this is a long, this is a long time ago relative to now. And the discussion that we basically had around it was, he said in his mind, he thought that" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "51:12", "start": 3071.89, "text": "People wanted dollars, but every scenario that he came up with in his head, he couldn't think of a scenario where people wouldn't want dollars anymore and where they would actually want a different fiat currency over dollars. There was no scenario really that he was able to come up with. And I was already a Bitcoiner at that time, so I sort of laughed at him, and he laughed at me 'cause he thinks, he thought Bitcoin was really stupid. but it's, it's actually coming to fruition now, right? There will be a point at which people can actually opt out." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "51:42", "start": 3101.89, "text": "And go as a safe haven, and therefore we, we can opt out of this system, and there will be a point at which people don't want dollars anymore. And at that point, if they haven't printed their way out of this, right, they're gonna default." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:53", "start": 3113.22, "text": "Yeah, that's gonna be, a really sad moment. So I think we've, we've con- we've kinda covered some of the, let's say the negative, components of it, but let's talk a little bit about some of the positives then, because, the positives Know who have been saving in Bitcoin and perhaps, perhaps they have experienced a greater sense of freedom or just psychological benefit because they've been saving with Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "52:24", "start": 3143.7, "text": "Yeah, there's definitely the huge psychological benefit to it. I think that, especially for my clients, most of them, so the people who are coming in now are Bitcoiners, so it's a little bit different of a mindset when you're coming in as a Bitcoiner and us dealing with a Bitcoiner rather than having converted somebody who wasn't a Bitcoiner in any way into a Bitcoiner. the- People who weren't Bitcoiners and who have converted to become Bitcoiners have, they definitely have a peace of mind about the fact that, okay, I h- I at least have this. I have my hardware wallets, I've got Bitcoin on it. Worst case scenario, right? My family and I, we grab our hardware wallets and we go, right? And, and yeah, you know, hopefully we don't come to that worst case scenario, but there's a lot of psychological peace in that, in knowing that there's a portion of your net worth that's stored in something that's ultra secure, Right? That it doesn't matter because you know that they can't, it can't be seized, right? Especially if you're holding it properly, it's seizure resistant, that it's, it's going to, to, you know, wear time and so forth, and that you'll be able to take this wherever it is that you need to go, and even worst case scenario, right, is that you can memorize your words in your head if you couldn't even grab your hardware wallets. So I think that there's a huge psychological benefit to holding something like Bitcoin for sure," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "53:42", "start": 3221.89, "text": "They become Bitcoiners, of, hey, you know, all the-- there, there, there were always these issues in society that I knew about, but I never really traced them back to the money. And so as you're starting to unravel the different threads of what's going on in the current world and what you, you used to think maybe was causing that and so forth, when you start to-- when you kind of implant that idea that money is sort of in everything, right? And that, and that fiat money really has kind of tainted We did a lot of different things, right? People start to see that, and they start to see that in their day-to-day lives, and then they start to put more and more connections together, and then they start to be more excited about holding something like Bitcoin, where it could, you know, that it's not only like my, you know, \"Oh crap, in case something happens, money,\" but it really is more like, it's, it's the future, right? Of, and really creating more of a beautiful future rather than this, you know, \"Oh crap," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "54:40", "start": 3279.85, "text": "I Of, of it being more promising, of it being more exciting, of, you know, them feeling more confident about the future that their children are going to have rather than what it used to be like before." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:52", "start": 3291.6, "text": "Yeah, that's a really great way to put it. I think, you know, we've gone through a lot of material in this podcast together, and so in a sense, for a lot of people, it's, it's just getting those basics right of really living well within your means, stacking and saving, and then, you know, making sure you are self-custodying The positive aspect to all of this is that, which is that we are giving ourselves additional security for the long term. So I think that's a great message, for people. And as you rightly mentioned, there are these psychological benefits, to holding Bitcoin and saving Bitcoin as long as we're doing it the right way and we're not over-leveraging or overstretching ourselves. Yeah. So I suppose, as we finish up then, Morgan, do you have any, I guess, closing thoughts, any last messages for the listeners, and, where" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "55:42", "start": 3341.89, "text": "Yeah, so my last message would be that saving is good and saving should be exciting and find a way to make saving exciting in your life, especially if you're gonna do it in Bitcoin because I think that that's, yeah, it's really your best hope for a really good future, and really not even for yourself, right? If you don't wanna do it for yourself, find somebody that you love that you can do it for because you are going to be so much better off if you're able to do that. So that would be my final parting words for anyone listening to this Twitter, I'm at morgan with an e rochard. my financial planning firm is Origin Wealth Advisors, that's origin w a dot com. I also do Bitcoin consulting over at moneyowners dot com. I have a podcast called Bitcoin for Advisors, Pierre and I run that together. we're hoping to put out another episode this week. People have been yelling at us that we don't put out enough of those, and we're doing our best, so we're gonna hopefully get one of those out this week as well. I have a book called The Personal Finance Quick Now it's a Bitcoin personal finance book. if you would like to be interviewed for that book, please reach out to me. I'm doing interviews for that so I can have more fresh stories, as I'm putting that together and making sure that the content is extremely, like, super relevant to what Bitcoiners want in that book rather than what I think Bitcoiners want in that book, because it's very different, I think, between what I would put in there and what other people might want in there. So please reach out if you would like to be interviewed for that, and Remember, I'm running a personal finance workshop on the Wednesday before, I don't know the date off the top of my head, I guess it's the, the ninth, I wanna say." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:20", "start": 3439.86, "text": "It might be eighth or ninth, something like that around then." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "57:22", "start": 3442.18, "text": "Yeah, yeah, eighth or ninth, the day after Election Day. So come and check us out there. if you have a, a Pacific Bitcoin ticket, you can go to that workshop for free, and it's gonna be all about Bitcoin personal finance." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:34", "start": 3453.61, "text": "Fantastic. Well, yeah, really enjoyed chatting," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:42", "start": 3461.93, "text": "At Pacific Bitcoin. Thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "57:44", "start": 3464.01, "text": "Yeah, same here. Thanks for having me on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:46", "start": 3466.32, "text": "I hope you enjoyed the show and found it informative. You can get all the show notes over at stephanlivera dot com slash four two six, and you can find the things that Morgan mentioned. That's it from me. I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }