{ "episodeId": "SLP428", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "stack_hodler": { "name": "Stack hodler", "role": "guest", "tag": "STACK" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.46, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics, brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Today, Stack Hodler re-joins me on the show. Now, Stack is an analyst. Looking at the world from a macro perspective and tweeting out some really interesting insights, so that's how he first came up on the radar. Now I had that earlier chat with him and I got him back on the show this time to chat about basically an update on his thoughts as well as see what he's seeing as the key macro factors to watch. So that's what we talk about in this interview. The show is brought to you by Blockstream Green. Green is an industry-leading Bitcoin and liquid wallet. It's available on iOS, Android, or desktop. Top, you can gain access to powerful features such as multi-signature, full node verification, and Tor support. So with Blockstream Green, you can secure it using their multi-signature shield, one key held on your device and another on Blockstream's servers, and they will have a two-factor authentication applied in terms of signing on that other key. Now they also have a time lock or a third backup key that ensure that you still retain full ownership of your funds. Blockstream Green is also integrated with hardware wallets like Blockstream J- Jade, Ledger or Trezor devices, so you can have the best of both worlds, cold storage combined with a full suite of features and multi-signature security. Now, for those of you who prefer single signature, that is also an option. So if you're interested, go and get it today, it's over at blockstream dot com slash green. Now, when it comes to Bitcoin hardware, my favorite are the products over at coinkite dot com. Coinkite make a range of products such as the Coldcard, which is a well-known Bitcoin hardware signing device, or previously called hardware Card Mark 4 has a range of features. You can use it in airgapped mode, meaning you set up the device, you initialize it, you get that twelve or twenty-four words, but then instead of directly plugging the device to your computer, you can use an SD card to move the information back and forth, such as the master public key from your cold card into your computer. So this way, you can use the device in an airgapped mode and initialize it offline. So that's a great feature. If you're interested to learn more, you can go and find out more about all And use code Livera for a discount on your cold cards. Now, when it comes to securing your hodl stack, really consider multi-signature once you get above a certain level, and Unchained Capital can help you with this. They can create a vault where you hold two keys and they hold one key. In doing so, you can help remove single points of failure in your setup. So a lot of people talk about passphrase, and I know this goes back and forth, but remember that if you have a passphrase, you also need to either memorize it, and now maybe- Maybe you're becoming the single point of failure, or you are keeping it recorded somewhere. So it's always useful to really think through your setup. Unchained Capital can help you by giving you a way to easily step up into multi-signature from a single signature setup. Now they've got a concierge onboarding program. They can ship you the hardware, they can do a call with you, they can walk you through the process. So if you're interested in this, go to unchained dot com slash concierge, use code livera for a discount there. And now onto the show with Stack Stack, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Stefan. It's good to be here. So, Stack, I see you've been, tweeting it out hard, and you've also got your new Stack Pro Macro. So we'll get into that and all of this stuff, and as well as chat a little bit about what's going on in the world of macro and Bitcoin. so I, I thought an interesting one to start is it seems that the narrative, up until recently, now just for clarity, for anyone who's not clear, we're recording this on the Here in Dubai, that, that's my time, obviously Stack's in Switzerland, and now recently one narrative has been that put it this way, we're all at the whim of what's happening with central banks, and perhaps Bitcoiners don't like this because in one sense you could, I could imagine, Bitcoiners don't wanna be at the whim of central banks, they would rather see Bitcoin marching to the beat of its own drum. So I'm curious, Stack, what's your view on this idea? Like, should, is Bitcoin marching to the beat of its own drum or is And government." }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "04:20", "start": 259.81, "text": "Yeah, I do agree, it kinda sucks. You know, we're trying to-- here we are kinda trying to replace the Fed, bring in a new monetary standard, and you got-- we have the money printer just dragging us around, so it is very annoying, but we can hate it, you know, all we want, but we, we do have to acknowledge reality. And I think the last year has made it very clear that Bitcoin is very much an asset tied to the macro environment. You know, it's dollar price, it, it moves based on multiple things market hype cycles, which we've had in the past, and I think, you know, those are at least partially driven by havings, but we are living at the end of a big debt cycle, and I think this is what we'll probably get into today, but, if you just- If you consider like the, the Weimar gold chart, that you, you've probably seen a handful of times, but the price of gold, you know, in Weimar Germany was just flowing, fluctuating around wildly during their hyperinflation, and I think that Bitcoin is kind of a, it's a similar type of thing where it's the type of asset that you can, you know, one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin, just like one ounce of gold is one ounce of gold, and its dollar price is going to fluctuate, when central banks are, are pulling liquidity and For me at least, I, I just try to keep my focus on the big picture, so where I think it ends up and how Bitcoin performs in that period. And really, I think, you know, the big picture does favor Bitcoin in the long term. so I just, I expect the volatility, I expect currencies to be, you know, increasingly destroyed until we get like a monetary reset of some kind. But to me, you know, a million dollar Bitcoin is, is still totally in the cards and sometime in the next ten years, I'd say, and this volatility doesn't really," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:00", "start": 360.37, "text": "That's a totally fair answer. And when it comes to playing these cycles in a way, perhaps we could say one thing that's different this time around is that Bitcoin, perhaps historically, it has been-- it has seemed to move on this kind of four-year cycle-ish basis, although there are times where maybe it deviates from that. But now perhaps the bigger factor is more about what's going on around the rest of the world and just because Bitcoin is so small relative- globally, right? Because Bitcoin has a market, what is it, five hundred billion ish, whereas we have equities markets and bond markets and property markets that may be a hundred trillion or something like that, in those kinds of, in that kind of range. So, you know, it's just so much smaller. Now, I wanted to contrast some of the different views that are out there. It seems that there are different, differing views in terms of what's going on out there. So, I guess at a high level, there's a few ones that maybe- are popular. So one, for example, is this whole dollar milkshake theory. Brent Johnson, the, Santiago Capital guy, basically talking about this idea of US dollar being the least dirty shirt in the, in the room, therefore people are going for the US dollar. and then you've got this view of Luke Groen, which is more like the US fiscal house isn't in order, and, you know, that's gonna cause issues. And I think many people would also agree with aspects of that. And then you've got maybe a shift style sort of dollar goes to zero Which is maybe more like central banks don't have that much power, it's all about the euro dollar shortage. So I'm curious, I wanted to get your take and how you might, let's say, compare and contrast some of your views with that. So do you wanna maybe start with the dollar milkshake? Firstly, how do you, how would you characterize it, and how would you, do you agree with that thesis?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "07:50", "start": 470.36, "text": "Yeah, I think actually all of those thesis you named, I, I think I take parts from them. I think they're all very, actually, I, I don't think most of them disagree with one another. I think they're more a matter of timing, to be honest. So like, for example, like Luke Grohman and, and, and, Brent Johnson, I, I don't think that they necessarily disagree. I just think it's a matter of, you know, in a tight money environment like we've had this year, cash is gonna be the thing that Other fiats pretty much just because of, and this ties into Jeff Snyder's point, but just, just the way that debt is structured around the world. So when, when people are loaning money, they, they know that the dollar is the best thing to denominate the debt in, because it is the strongest. And so whenever there's, like I said, tight money, like you have now, people are gonna tr-trying to pay off that debt, and there's just gonna be that structural dollar shortage. So yeah, I mean, I, I agree with the, the Overall thesis, 'cause I think it can be, it can be kind of helpful here. Yeah, sure. So I like to keep it pretty zoomed out, and I think there's just like four things that, if you have a good grasp on these things, then you can, you can kind of know what to expect over the coming years, and it, it'll just help you ride out the volatility along the way. So the first one is, the end of the big debt cycle, and Ray Dalio is the one that turned me onto this, but essentially just in simple terms, you" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "09:20", "start": 560.18, "text": "Debt to GDP in the US, and so now it gets to the point where you can't really grow your way out of it, 'cause the debt, you add like a dollar of debt and you only get around, about three cents of growth, so you can't grow your way out, you can't really surplus your way out. some people think, you know, okay, well, if we just reduce spending and increase taxes, then, you know, we can pay off this debt. Well, we've kinda just passed that point. You know, if you turn the" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "09:50", "start": 590.0, "text": "So really, when it comes down to it, there's only two options to this, or two ways this big debt cycle can resolve. The first is by just mass default, you know, countries decide to default on their debt, but that just, that never happens through history. Whenever a country can print its currency and push comes to shove, they end up just printing the currency. So the, the, the way that's most likely to pay off the debt is just by devaluing the currency. And if you know that, then it, you kinda just have to wait for it to Your nerve, stay solvent, and expect the currency to devalue, right? So you wanna hold assets that are going to perform well in that environment. So Bitcoin is definitely one. The second thing is inflation. So inflation acts as a major constraint. Central banks, like I said, I mean, they need to devalue the currencies to pay off the debt, but if you're weakening the currency, that can increase inflation. And the reason that matters is just because you have, you know, real pain on the ground at that point. And so they wanna keep the guillotines at bay, Looking for them to, to be killed, right? So to them, it's like the next, call it decade, whatever, is gonna be a battle between devaluing the currency, and fighting inflation. And so that's, it's probably gonna feel a lot like what we felt in the past year, you know, where you have huge asset price swings going up and then huge asset price coming down as they try to battle inflation. so expect that severe volatility. But I think, one thing you wanna do there is, is look at, you know, throughout these swings, Performing the best in each sort of renewed cycle. So if you're getting these like cycles happening faster and more frequently, which it seems like we are, you'll wanna be holding the things that are performing the best and that have properties that can survive in the environment we're heading into. So those, those are the first two. I can actually stop there and make sure you don't have any questions so far." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:38", "start": 698.21, "text": "Yeah, no, that's-- I think that makes a lot of sense, and actually that really echoes a lot of our, our first conversation also. So, so let's say that's the" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "11:50", "start": 710.0, "text": "End of debt cycle. Factor number two was the inflation as a constraint, and then factor number three is war and de-globalization. So usually when you have inflation picking up, is, is when you have more chaos in the world in general. So it's not really a surprise reaching the end of this big debt cycle that we're starting to have, you know, less global cooperation, more war, and these are, these are all inflationary pressures. So it really just piles on top of that second point, 'cause you know, you get, with breakdown of cooperation, you get everything Resource strains, et cetera. So, really what's going on is you have these challengers in, in China and Russia, and maybe some of the BRICS thrown in, and they see the Western world in a, in a fragile moment right now, and they know that trust between nations is kind of breaking down as the monetary system gets more fragile. And so some of them are maybe, you know, Russia, China, a bit, they're, they're trying to press on this a bit, and make it harder for the West to devalue its currency and pay off the The West go down in, in kind of a flaming heap, rather than be able to kick the can, and maintain their hegemony. So that's what's going on, with war and de-globalization, and, you know, de-globalization, it just kind of results from the hostile atmosphere, but it's, like I said, it's very inflationary as, as businesses need to rebuild supply chains and there were a lot of efficiencies of the, of globalization which are, which are going to be lost, I would say, in the next decade. So that This natural search for a new store of value, so away from US Treasuries, which were, I don't know for how long, sixty years or so, sort of the de facto store of value, even for, you know, every-- for everybody from private investors, pension funds, but also to nation states, a lot of them, they were holding US Treasuries, sometimes trillions worth, because it was just seen as the safe store of value. But so in this conversation we're having, you know, if you and I can figure out that these Treas" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "13:50", "start": 830.02, "text": "Any real returns, then, you know, nations are obviously figuring that out as well. So they do have an incentive to, to dump treasuries or rather exchange them for something that can't be debased or seized. so I see that also as sort of this fourth thing to watch, because ultimately that increases the burden on the Fed, who's trying to, you know, they're gonna have to buy all these bonds and, and there's just gonna be so many and it makes their job harder to debase the currency and, and keep inflation in check. So that's thinking about constantly and, and have it sort of my big macro view, and then, like I said, for positioning, just expect volatility. I wanna be mainly pr- positioned for the money printer, just destroying the value of currencies. So to me, that means Bitcoin primarily, some gold thrown in there as well. And then, other than that, just stay solvent, you know, during the deflationary periods, like we've had this year. So don't use leverage. I don't try to time the markets, and, you know, I try to maintain" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "14:50", "start": 890.12, "text": "Sell, at depressed prices. and then the last thing I'll say, and then I'll stop, but just, you know, expect social volatility as well. In these types of moments, it's like the fourth turning moment where things just kind of go crazy, so you really have to prepare yourself physically and mentally, I'd say, build a community, and just prepare for harder times than we're used to. It's not to say that everything's going to fall apart everywhere, but it's always good to be prepared, 'cause like I said, these" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "15:20", "start": 920.0, "text": "This is just one of humanity's cycles, right? So on the other side of it's gonna be a better world and, and one that I believe will, it'll have Bitcoin, you know, as like that sort of core monetary instrument that can guide us into, I, I think it, it can guide us into like a new era of abundance of energy and, and less fiat insanity. So that's, that's sort of the positive vision I hold onto in the end." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:39", "start": 939.27, "text": "That's an excellent way to summarize things. I think you've nailed it in terms of what are the most important factors. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:50", "start": 950.04, "text": "Right? Yep. D'Alloa talks about this, and I, you know, I think a lot of people, even in the Bitcoin world, have been talking about this idea of cycles, people like Mark Mass or Brandon Quidham. and then secondly, we have this idea of inflation as a constraint, because the, let's say the quote-unquote, the powers that be or the, the governments and central banks, there's only so much that they can do theoretically. Now, of course, we disagree with inflation, but they are going to try it, but at versus the social unrest that would be caused, that's going to be caused, because they've already put the world into a bad place. Now it's about what's the least, quote unquote, least bad way out from their point of view, of course. from our point of view, I think obviously the answer is pretty clear, it's go to a Bitcoin standard. and then at number three, factor three, was war and de-globalization and what kind of turmoil are we going to see because of that? What kind of supply chains are we going to see get disrupted because of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:50", "start": 1010.0, "text": "It's obviously gonna be very troubling and very concerning for, you know, for a lot of people out there. And then fourthly, as you said, the natural ser-search for the new store of value. So I think at this point, it's probably gonna be an interesting question for most people to chat a little bit about US Treasuries, where they've come from, and basically this question, is the world done with US Treasuries, or is it just a slow process of, let's say, the rest of the world waking up to this idea that maybe you don't wanna hold a lot Unquote value inside US Treasuries. You know, I, I know even in places like South Africa, there are, there are businesses, like larger businesses, who might still hold US Treasuries, because from the, the fiat fractional reserve system point of view, from this multi-layer fractional reserve system, from their point of view, they see US Treasuries as the safe thing, because they see, let's say, you know, maybe your bank account isn't that safe or, for, for other reasons. So what are the ways in which the world is gonna be done? \"Quote unquote withholding a lot of US treasuries, or at least less than they previously did." }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "17:54", "start": 1074.4, "text": "Yeah, I think, especially in a-- again, going back to this tight money concept where all assets are worth less except for cash, which we've seen this year, and cash can be things like T-bills, which, you know, maybe that corporation holds, short duration treasuries. So in that time, you know, treasuries are gonna look-- they're gonna look more appealing, but in the long run, I mean, everybody can kind of see where it US dollar, currency derivatives like T-bills or, or bonds, they're all gonna be debased, they're gonna lose purchasing power. so that's not, that's not a secret, it doesn't happen overnight. And so, yeah, Treasuries are super liquid, it is the US dollar, which is, you know, relatively more valuable than, whatever fiat currencies on the ground around the world, but at the end of the day, it is going to lose purchasing power compared to other assets, so that could be things like Bitcoin or Hodlers losing to those things over time. So it's just a matter of, you know, what's your timeline? If it's, if it's a short term, if it's a short term hold and you just need like liquidity, then it could make sense to still hold these treasuries, but in the long run, there's a lot of countries that see this and they, they just don't wanna be financially repressed. So it's like all of us, right? Like if we see this, bond scenario playing out, we're gonna naturally avoid bonds," }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "19:18", "start": 1157.62, "text": "and And I found this out recently, and I still, I think about it, it kinda blows my mind, but like Social Security in the US is 100% allocated to US Treasuries, so there's kind of a captive audience that they can essentially steal from by crushing the value of these bonds, or rather the purchasing power of these bonds. But what often happens is they find other groups to do that too as well. So they'll, they'll mandate pension funds to hold a certain amount of bonds. They'll very often try to ban inflation hedges, so that's," }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "19:50", "start": 1190.0, "text": "Essentially repress people, forcing them to hold these bonds and, and essentially take the loss, hold the bag, right? and so nobody wants to do that, some people are forced into it, but if you're a sovereign nation, the only way you can really be forced to do it is via war, right? And so unfortunately, that's maybe part of what's going on in the world right now, why there's more conflict, is like, okay, the US would like the system to hold together so that they don't have to buy all these bonds, you know, all" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "20:15", "start": 1215.26, "text": "at once" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "20:20", "start": 1220.0, "text": "I don't think this is something that happens overnight, because on the other hand, you know, nations that are holding large amounts of treasuries, they also have an incentive somewhat to hold the system together a little bit. if everybody dumped their treasuries at once, then pretty much everybody's holdings are worthless, right? It forces the Fed to buy everything with monopoly money, and the system essentially resets, right? So I think there's kind of a, it's kind of a game. It's, it's a little bit of a slow move, like you said, it's, it They unloaded a bunch of treasuries of the past ten years and, and bought a bunch of gold. China's now below a trillion, in holdings, so they're kind of slowly doing that as well. And then I just saw this week, you know, Saudi Arabia is almost openly taunting the US, over this NOPEC deal, which, yeah. So they're, they're, they're kind of saying that they're gonna be dumping treasuries as well. They're kind of holding that, over the US's head as a sword now. I think when the Fed is also trying to sell and private investors don't wanna hold bonds 'cause they don't wanna get crushed. And yeah, at the end of the day, I think it just ends up with the Fed buying them all. It's just a matter of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:31", "start": 1290.93, "text": "timing. And the funny thing with that you mentioned as well, with the Fed having to buy them all is, for years and years and years, the central bank leaders in the Fed have been saying, \"Oh, don't worry, we will unwind our balance sheet, we'll bring it back down.\" So just for listeners who aren't various people, people like Ron Paul as well, who were saying, \"Look how big your balance sheet is. Are you actually gonna bring it, are you gonna bring it back down to normal?\" And they kept saying, \"Yeah, yeah, we'll do that.\" But as you say, Stack, if all the other big players start selling all of their treasuries, then how can the Fed conceivably or credibly make the case that they will lower their balance sheet back down?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "22:12", "start": 1332.21, "text": "Yeah, I mean, the simple answer is they can't, right? It's all a confidence game." }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "22:20", "start": 1340.06, "text": "Asked Christine Lagarde that very question, she just said, \"Uh, oh, it will come, in due time, it will come.\" Like she had no answer, right? And so it's, it's a confidence game, and they're not even-- she's not even a group, well, she's a con artist in some ways, but she's not very convincing, right? So, yeah, I don't know, I mean, I don't think there is a, a chance they'll do it. I don't think that's gonna happen. And, and just quick shout out to Goldbugs is like they were on top of this for years and years, right? Like they were the one class of investors that were kind of holding down the sound money for it, and, and calling this out, right? Calling the scam out the entire time, right? It's a shame that most of them just, you know, missed the boat on Bitcoin, and I think the reason they did is simply because, you know, they-- it's kind of silly, right? They would, they expect Bitcoin to behave like gold, but like obviously a, a monetizing asset isn't gonna behave" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "23:20", "start": 1400.02, "text": "Doing its, its, its eventual market cap. And to them, they look at it and they're like, \"Oh, just another volatile thing,\" but they're ignoring the actual properties of Bitcoin, which is actually an improvement on gold in so many ways. So, but I, I will say kudos to them for, for keeping this bigger picture in mind while most of the world just completely forgot about it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:37", "start": 1417.35, "text": "Yeah, of course. And there are of course, Bitcoin friendly gold bugs like our friend, Lawrence Lapard and," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:46", "start": 1426.42, "text": "some others in the world, As well, so they, they are in the, let's say, Bitcoin plus gold camp, right? Yeah, yeah. So I think I would put" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "23:57", "start": 1436.66, "text": "myself, I would put myself in that, in that category too. I'm definitely like way more towards the Bitcoin side, but I, I do hold gold and I, and I respect it for what it is, and I see its slight, slight differences and see enough reasons to" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:08", "start": 1448.43, "text": "hold" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "24:09", "start": 1448.63, "text": "it, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:09", "start": 1448.83, "text": "I'll leave it at that. Back to the show in a moment. Swan Bitcoin is the lead sponsor of Stephan Livera podcast, and Swan are" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:20", "start": 1460.06, "text": "Near America, think about coming, it's November 10th and 11th in LA, California. This is going to be a fantastic meetup with all kinds of awesome bitcoiners coming, people like Michael Saylor, Lynn Alden, Preston Pish, Pierre Rochard, and of course, many Swan favorites like Corey Klipstein, Lynn Alden, Jan Pritzker, and so many more are coming. There will be three tracks in terms of multiple stages going, it's gonna be really fun, and this is a great opportunity to learn about Bitcoin and also make some connections with people in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:50", "start": 1490.0, "text": "PacificBitcoin dot com, use code Livera, and I'm hoping to see you all there. Now, when it comes to sending out Bitcoin transactions, I like to use Mempool dot space. This is the next generation Bitcoin and blockchain explorer, exploring Bitcoin across multiple layers. With Mempool dot space, you can target the level of fee that you assign for your transactions, you can search transactions to see which ones have been confirmed, you can run it yourself and host it on your own, and you can also view the Multiple layers of the Bitcoin ecosystem. So for example, there's a Lightning Network explorer. You can search Lightning nodes, you can see what channels they have, you can see the fees are that are associated, you can see the channel points, as in the UTXOs associated with that channel. You can do all these different features. So mempool.space is a comprehensive explorer. Now, don't forget, if you're an enterprise, mempool.space offers customized instances, so you can have your company's branding, you can have increased API limits, and so much more. Go Find out more at mempool dot space slash enterprise. And now back to the show with Stack. Yeah, sure. and so we were chatting about this whole idea of big players around the world dumping their US treasuries. So that could be nation states, as you mentioned, China, Russia, others. Now, could there be political ramifications or implications if they were to dump a lot of their treasuries? So for example, e-especially if you- You are some kind of state who is protected by the US government, then maybe there's a little bit more pressure to try and-- that you have to, that you should hold their bags as a, you know, payment to your, protector. Do you see a bit of a political imperative there? Is that a dynamic to watch? Yeah, definitely. I" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "26:37", "start": 1596.97, "text": "think at the end of the day, it comes down to, again, this concept of financial repression and almost a threat of force, right? Like in the US, if they have jurisdiction over their citizens, they can, they can force If it's a foreign country, I mean, threat of force via militaries is, is definitely one way they can convince those nations to do it, or if they're the protectors, so maybe like a lot of these Western nations in Europe, they might be hesitant to, you know, torpedo the US 'cause they fear the ramifications. I, I do definitely think that that's part of the calculus, and I'd say in general, it seems like they're kinda all on the same team, so I don't see strong incentives, besides the fact that they're gonna lose purchasing power" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "27:21", "start": 1640.64, "text": "so I think the, the bigger ones you have to worry about are more like the Russias, the Chinas, the BRICS that are kind of like, hey, we have resources you need, so we're gonna not hold this bag and you're gonna still pay us in whatever we want. I think that's the thing" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:34", "start": 1654.01, "text": "that's coming. And as you mentioned, the, pay us in what we want, right? Now, I think that part maybe gets a little too much play, but I'm curious what you think, right? But here's, let me lay out some thoughts" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:51", "start": 1670.98, "text": "Oh, because they are expecting you to pay them in their currency, that that's gonna be bullish for that currency. But the way I'm seeing it is, if I had to pay somebody in some random altcoin, let's say, and I, like, and I had to do it because I need this thing from them, I-- it doesn't necessarily mean I would hold more of it. I might just change, it might trade just a small amount just before the moment that I need to pay that person, right? So in the same way, it's not necessarily bullish for the ruble or, The one, what matters more, I think, or let's say, let's say the more important factor is how many bag holders are there, how many people want to hold it, right? That's the key reservation demand, and that's an important concept for us as Bitcoiners as well, because we're growing the base of people who are willing and want to hold more Bitcoin. So I'm curious your view, on this idea that just be- merely because oil deals are priced in some non-USD fiat, does that boost the demand realistically?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "28:50", "start": 1729.64, "text": "yeah. And I think that's a good question. I don't have tons and tons of thoughts on that. I, I think the main, the main thing I would say is like it kinda depends more on where they store profits at the end of the day, right? So if they, if they pick something like, you know, gold or Bitcoin to store their profits in, I think that that adds demand for those types of assets, 'cause at the end of the day, like those other fiats, they are, they're all gonna have their own monetary policies, and I think that that and like quantity that" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "29:20", "start": 1760.14, "text": "Really limit the amount of, let's say it's Russia, I'm gonna limit the amount of rubles I print, and you have to pay me in rubles. I think it, you know, it goes up against the dollar, but kind of just because there, there's fewer of them, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:31", "start": 1771.07, "text": "Yeah. So I think the other question that's interesting is with the US Fed, right? So everyone's watching them. They are raising, they're going through this rate raising cycle. We've seen multiple, instances where they raise rates. Now, the big question is, will there be Conflict between the US Fed and the US government because the US government wants cheap debt. So who's gonna blink first? Like, how does this, how does this play out in your view?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "30:01", "start": 1800.85, "text": "I think at the end of the day, they're, they're gonna get their ability to spend, 'cause I think the only way to, to, get out of this trap is to debase the currency, right? So that's gonna, that's gonna entail spending and probably some investment. If they're smart, they're gonna invest in energy and, and, and productive means and not just, you Weapons and things like that. So I think at the end of the day, they'll, they'll get it, but in, in the period that we're in now, w-what we've seen in the UK recently and then also just in Japan last week, is like as soon as there's some sort of divergence, where the government proposes some huge spending bill or, you know, cutting taxes, it shows up immediately in the bond and, and currency market. So that's-- we saw that, we saw that in Japan, so last week they actually-- Well, okay, so Ten-year yield. So you can't see anything in the bond market, but last week they announced they're gonna spend one hundred and thirty-three billion dollars, to fight inflation. So it's more, genius, genius government plans to fight inflation by spending money. But so they're gonna do that, and as soon as they announced it, I mean, again, you couldn't see it in the, in the, in the bond market, but their currency just fell through the floor. So yeah, I mean, that was, that was one example. We saw the same thing in the UK" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "31:20", "start": 1880.02, "text": "I call crazy, but they announced, they announced a plan to spend more money and cut taxes, and this was obviously running counter to what the rest of the world's trying to do. So, you know, you saw the gilt market in the UK explode, and you saw the pound head towards near parity with the dollar, which was just absolute insanity. And the, this is really what it comes down to is like the central banks right now, they're in a fight to maintain credibility, and so any move like this by the government is going to really, really hurt their, central bank, right? The, the central banks know that this is all really just a confidence game, and so if governments kind of get in the way and blow up the, the, currency markets and the, and the, and the bond markets, you get what happens in the UK where, okay, they're at ten percent inflation, and suddenly the cent- the Bank of England saying, okay, actually we have to do unlimited bond buying, right? So they went from, they went from quantitative tightening to unlimited bond buying overnight, and that just makes them look silly, right? And so that, that hurts this Watch, in the short term, just, you know, governments versus the central banks, right? And so, yeah, that's just, that's just something I'm keeping my eye on. But I, I think in the end, though, the plan will have to be to, to spend the money, ideally once the inflation comes down. I, I think like right now in the, in, in the US with the Fed, what they're trying to do is, they're trying to get enough deflation, signals before having to turn around. Basically, they wanna get Or they, or they turn around. So that's what they're aiming, aiming for, they're, we're finally starting to see some, which is good, like there's some deflationary evidence, things like, you know, the PMI finally falling down, it hit like forty-nine, which is below, you know, expected forecast, and then housing prices I saw yesterday are falling at the fastest rate since two thousand and nine, so things are starting to look deflationary, and I think what's gonna happen is well, either the Treasury market's gonna blow out, they're gonna raise again, and then Treasury market's either gonna blow out, or, they're gonna have enough signals where they can slow down. But like, there's definitely a chance that they overdid it, right? Like, if we think about this, is there anything in the past, you know, five, ten years that makes us think that they're gonna be able to control this thing, you know, just right? Probably not. So in all likelihood, they've probably already overtightened, and we're We're probably just gonna, this is my guess, right? So I, I, I'm not saying this is certain, this is what I think is probably gonna happen is we'll probably get like one final great bond bull, right? So like these, these bonds are at like four percent now. I think the Fed's gonna end up panicking, they're gonna bring rates down low towards like zero or one percent again. Bond bulls are gonna ride it down, and then they're gonna sell the top, and, and the Fed's just gonna have to buy all these bonds from them. So" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "34:16", "start": 2055.99, "text": "Numbers that that's what's gonna happen, and it's just, it's a matter of like, do we see that first or do we see the treasury market kind of blow out?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:22", "start": 2062.24, "text": "Right. It's, it's an interesting navigation that they're having to do between, these two things. Now, on the UK market reaction. I'm curious a bit of your analysis. I mean, you, you were touching on some of this now. Do you see it like it was a bit of a temper tantrum because of proposed spending and tax cuts under Liz Truss, the former UK prime minister, or do you think that maybe it wasn't sold the right way, or, you know, was it, was it just that they wanted more spending and they wanted more borrowing?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "34:53", "start": 2092.58, "text": "Yeah, I think the, I think the markets in the UK were already in a fragile place just because of the, I guess maybe I should give a little bit of But so the basics are, you had the pension funds in the UK that needed to take on some risk, because of the low interest rate environment, right? Like if they wanted to meet, liabilities and be able to pay the, the pensioners, then they actually had to take on a little bit of risk, right? 'Cause they couldn't cover it with zero percent rates. So, up steps our good friend BlackRock, who says, \"Hey, we have this thing called an LDI, it's a liability driven investment, and we're gonna help you meet all your Which means you gotta like have a little bit of collateral sitting at BlackRock, but don't worry, we'll handle all the derivatives, everything will be fine, and you'll, you'll be able to make your payments. so a lot of pensions, you know, bought this, this sales pitch from BlackRock. And essentially what the LDI does is it uses leverage and, and kinda just takes bets on the market with derivatives. And as rates started rising this year, It was kind of the bets going the wrong way, right? So like these thirty-year gilts in the UK started, the yield started rising, these plans ended up needing more collateral, which made, you know, the pensions had to sell bonds to add collateral, and then it all came to a head when Liz Truss, who was the new PM, and her finance minister, they put out this like unexpectedly, fiscally irresponsible plan, right? So it was kind of, it was kind of like more spending mixed with tax cuts, and essentially like immediately the, the It's sold off, and they, they knew it was-- the, the markets knew like, okay, this is only gonna be funded via more bond issuance, right? So more bond supply, they started selling off, and this created a really bad feedback loop with this LDI thing. So they had already been selling these bonds to add collateral, but, you know, when the market moved so drastically, they ended up having to sell even more, and so it became this, this downward spiral, and the Bank of England had to step in and buy, which, which was kind of a nice reminder before letting things unravel. So like even with the ten percent inflation, the Bank of England was like, \"Alright, well, we have to, we have to buy these bonds.\" so yeah, I mean, I think it was, I think it was mostly just, it was already a fragile situation and this kind of unexpected plan threw everything off and, you know, BlackRock being at the center of it, of course. But one of the interesting things in the end is like, okay, we, Liz Truss, she lost her position, and then we end up Who, I guess, seems to be kind of like a World Economic Forum approved guy who's, seems to be into CBDC. So it's, it's just interesting, like, the connections between, like, BlackRock and then we end up with this guy who's, like, into CBDC. So, I guess it all works out in the end, right? But, besides that, I, I think the main takeaway is like, yeah, like fiscal recklessness at a time when central banks are tightening, can just cause rapid debt and currency moves. And so if" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "37:55", "start": 2274.72, "text": "together to do it, and that obviously gets harder, you know, when countries are at war. So that was, that was" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:00", "start": 2280.03, "text": "my main takeaway from the whole thing. Right. And so, yeah, as you say, it's one thing to have tax cuts, which is great, but if you're not also spending, doing spending cuts, then it's just irresponsible. And so I think that's a very key point. And so what? Perhaps what happens over time is that the population become complacent or they get used to handouts or they get become used to big government and they expect big government. So then politicians struggle to actually get the, build the consensus to actually cut and abolish those government departments until something goes really wrong, right? It seems that until something gets really bad, they don't have the license to come out and say, \"Yeah, actually, we're overspending.\" And over-taxing and over everything, we need to massively reduce the size of the government. That would be the right thing to do, to make it a lot smaller, but it seems that in practice, they are scarcely able to achieve that, right?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "39:03", "start": 2343.13, "text": "Yeah, and I think, I think in practice, actually, we're just past that point. Like, we're just past the point of austerity being able to fix things. austerity is gonna send people out onto the streets, then you just have general chaos, and it probably isn't gonna allow you to pay off Off the debt at this point, right? Like we've just, we've had too many free lunches, and at the end, like something has to, there has, something has to give, right? And it's unfortunate, but I think we, we're gonna have to live through a very difficult period, especially in, in certain places in the world, and that's just kinda how it goes. It's like you, you take on too much debt, there's only one way through, and it's, you know, by printing a bunch of money, and that causes tons of" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "39:46", "start": 2386.24, "text": "These crazy fiat distortions in society, you get chaos, you get violence, and you just get general upheaval, right? Like that's when all the heads get lopped off in, in, in France or you get wars and things like that. So it's unfortunate, but that's, that's what happens when you screw with the money so much, right? And so the hope of Bitcoiners is that enough people and, and businesses and, and countries can kind of organically shift to Bitcoin during this process, and start rebuilding this parallel economy that's, on sol- And maybe there'll be some countries like maybe El Salvador's gonna end up being a sort of a safe haven for people to go to, and get out of the fiat chaos, right? Who knows? I mean, it's- I think, yeah, bottom line is like too many free lunches, something's gotta give, and a lot of times it's just, it's the quality of life, right? Or it's even the population sometimes, unfortunately, and that's how this goes, that's how history has repeated in cycles, and, yeah, that's the consequence of screwing with the money so much." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:42", "start": 2441.77, "text": "Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, it's, it's, it's already a hard-- even if you rewind the clock twenty years, it's a hard sell to put, to tell people And live with a lower quality of life because fundamentally we just can't afford it. It's a hard message, and only libertarian Austrians and maybe others who are maybe cons-- maybe a few conservatives who could maybe buy that message. And so the rest of society is just kind of go-- plodding along, just driving off the cliff, and it's, it's sad, but that's unfortunately the situation we're in. And I think to circle back to another really good point you've made as well, and I've seen you make this on Twitter also, is that How do you blow up the financial system? You get all these people bought into ch-chasing yield or pushed further out on the risk curve, and this has happened at so many levels of society, right? So for example, we saw even government entities were caught up in the whole Celsius blow up. We see individuals all being pushed into, let's say, the housing market. So we see everyone, everyone becomes a house flipper, right? So we see this cultural acceptance or culturally and institutional push Of the idea that it's, you know, it's normal, everyone should just have a massive mortgage that is a massive multiple of your annual income, and we just create these massive housing bubbles and it just becomes normalized. What does the process look like to actually unwind that? I mean, it's, it's gonna look scary, isn't it?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "42:15", "start": 2534.76, "text": "Yeah, I think it is, I think it is gonna look scary, and, you know, frankly, I, I don't know exactly what it's gonna look like. It's really hard to, it's really hard to see, but I think just Especially, you know, bondholders, getting completely debased. So, and that, I mean, to think about that, right? Like, again, Social Security being a hundred percent allocated to US Treasuries, what does that mean then if those Treasuries don't really buy anything anymore? You have a bunch of retirees that can't really pay for things. I mean, yeah, there's a huge ramifications, right, for society, for just security and, and, in general, just, it's gonna be harder times, I would say, i's, i's kinda what And we realize, I think, you know, like frogs in a pot type thing. But I had this realization the other day, I was in a, I was in a cab in London with my wife, and we saw a, we saw an ad, and it was like, it had a, it was like a woman with holding a cat, and it said like, \"Oh, your cat is your baby, like treat it like your, your human baby.\" I was like, \"Wait a minute, okay, so the fact that this resonates with people is kind of crazy, right?" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "43:26", "start": 2606.4, "text": "And like it's just, it's very expensive, right? Having a kid is almost becoming a luxury in a lot of places, and that is, to me, I'm like, okay, well, are we like, we're just like already in a depression then, aren't we? Because like, you have both people working, a lot of people can't even get ahead enough to have kids, and it's just like this hard, this hard environment where nobody feels like they can get ahead, right? and so in a lot of ways, I think we're already there when you compare it I think that that's, that's another thing that we don't really realize is like just the damage that has already been done and the environment that we're already living in. And I think, you know, a lot of us Bitcoiners are, are, are hyper aware of the societal, let's call it distortions, going on right now and, and how fiat is related to that. But I think it, it just continues to accelerate and, and, and every time you get, another wave of printing, it almost, it gets more extreme. And in some ways," }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "44:26", "start": 2666.4, "text": "Almost sounds like this year, like the fever pitch has, isn't been as high as it was like last year, right? Like maybe it's just like the lack of shitcoinery, but it kinda feels like a lot of things are less extreme than they were like a year ago, right? But, what I fear is that with another wave of printing comes another wave of just complete buffoonery and we're gonna have to deal with all kinds of nonsense again. So, I don't know, what do you, what do you think about that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:52", "start": 2691.56, "text": "Yeah, I, the way I And I, I think this is something that we should also make clear, it's that we, we shouldn't buy into the government narratives on certain things. So for example, in two thousand and eight, they were saying, \"Oh, if we don't do these bailouts, it's gonna be Mad Max on the streets, your debit card isn't gonna work, you're...\" You know, like they have a bit of an incentive to exaggerate how bad things will get. But if government simply got out of the way, right, lowered its spending, lowered its taxes, lowered its regulation, and let Go on pretty quickly, and there's a bit of a perverse nature to this because historically, there have been times where, let's say, it might have been a depression, but actually the government just didn't even notice, and by the time people kept on building and doing businesses and things, and it pretty much got out of it. And really what made the Great Depression was actually government at- attempts at intervention because of crisis, right? So crisis becomes an excuse per se, quote unquote, excuse for the government to come in and do something. And what sadly ends up happening is those interventions prolong the depression. And so what we should, you know, those of us who are try to think rationally and free minded, should make that case and at least make it clear governments are hurting this situation, and actually we would be better off if they did less than if they did more. But unfortunately, it's, it's, it's a hard case to make, right? Because as we were saying, people have been used to so much, they, their expectation level is so high, and it's difficult to- Lower that expectation and say, \"No, I'm sorry, we have to learn to live with less. We need to live within our means. It's not, it's not a fun message to hear, right?\"" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "46:35", "start": 2794.63, "text": "Right. That's definitely true, yeah. I think my, my, my question around that, and this is just probably a lack of education in that realm, is like, so, like in that scenario, let's say like the government steps back, and just stops spending, the central bank stops buying bonds, et cetera, in my mind it's like, I guess my, my thing there is like, okay, well, and, and maybe this is gonna happen anyway, so it doesn't matter, right? But it seems like those pen- like all the pensions are screwed, so everybody's retirement is completely gone. so then you have a bunch of old people with like, I guess, what, no, like no, like, what do they do to survive, right? Like, hopefully the ones that have kids, I guess, can move in with their kids, but if their retirement is completely gone, and then you get kind of like a def" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "47:27", "start": 2846.96, "text": "But I don't know, what do you like, what does that period of transition look like where the government just steps back and you have, you know, basically all debt gets defaulted on, people lose jobs, but like everybody loses jobs, and then what does that look like in like the restart?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:42", "start": 2861.85, "text": "Yeah, sure. So look, I think I am very much informed by a lot of Austrian economics, as you know, long-time listeners of my show know. I think a really great short booklet to read is called Deflation and Liberty by Guido Hulsmann. Fantastic short booklet and- And this was written around 2008 or around there, but the point being, a lot of people fear deflation, but from an Austrian perspective, it's okay, yes, you know, the damage was done on the way up, right? So either way, we're gonna suffer. The question is more about- Will those resources still be able to be put to productive use? And so the answer is yes, right, that there are still, you know, tractors out there and there are, you know, computers and printers and all kinds of capital equipment that's out there. The problem is what's happened is malinvestment, and therefore these investment and resources have been put into projects that are literally not able to be completed because we don't have the resources to complete them. So what will happen under this deflationary environment that we would go into if, if the government were to actually- Step back. Yes, I mean, y-you're right, there would be some very bad ramifications, but the damage was done on the way up. And so this is like the equivalent of, you know, to use a Peter Schiff analogy, it's like saying the patient is like, a drug patient, and instead of going to rehab, the central banks just keep giving them drugs, like, just keep jabbing, keep going, keep taking more drugs. Now, while I'm with you, I agree with you that, from the government's point of view, they see it We're just gonna have to print our way out of this, because that's the paradigm they're in. Whereas if you're in a more pro-deflation camp, then you could make a case that really, yes, businesses and even people who are working in different jobs, they're gonna have to go work in jobs that are actually economically sustainable. But there's no other way than to go to a sustainable and sound money. and so of course, that's where Bitcoin comes into it, and that's where, you know, it, it, yeah, that basically the people who get re They're the ones who lent out and made bad loans in a way. Yeah. It's sad because as you said, a lot of people are coerced, they are forced into effectively lending to the government because in the US case, Social Security is held in US, you know, treasuries, as you said. So there's no easy way out, there are just less bad ways out, is how I'm thinking of it." }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "50:07", "start": 3006.55, "text": "Yeah, I see that. And I'm gonna read, Deflation and Liberty. That sounds like a, sounds like a worthwhile read. Not to, not to Like sometimes I wonder how much of the, like if you look at the population chart, it's just, you know, it's gone like absolutely vertical, well, it depends on the axis of course, but it's, it's really, really grown, you know, past hundred years, and a lot of that has to do with, you know, technological advances and, but I, I often wonder, you know, like how much of that is just this like insane credit cycle that we've been on, it's supported, you know, we've pulled so much productivity into the," }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "50:44", "start": 3044.29, "text": "One thing I was thinking of, like, okay, well, if we let-- the system that we've built right now, like, if we, if we do let it collapse, like, how much of the population just naturally goes with it, right? So that was a, another thought I was thinking of, but I wanna read that book 'cause I think it'll inform me better on, on all of that top, all those topics." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:00", "start": 3060.4, "text": "Yeah, right. I mean, look, at the end of the day, we should also remember that, you know, freedom breathes through Where they are given an opportunity. so I think we shouldn't be too pessimistic, like I think we have an opportunity now to create this parallel system, and that's really the opportunity of Bitcoin, is that people can start opting into Bitcoin, and over time, I believe, right, those people who are valuing their net worth in Bitcoin and trying to value and price things in that, where possible, they'll do better, and as a result of other people see- Seeing the success of Bitcoin people doing that, they'll start copying. Now, I think there's a little bit of an overall apathy problem. I think a lot of people just, they just, they've got their job, they've got their family, maybe they've got a little bit, they've got some hobbies or whatever, they haven't really taken the time to go deep and actually really understand Bitcoin, and really understand the sociological and economic impacts of Bitcoin, why they should be using it, why, you know, why they should be trying to be self-sovereign, all of Or in here listening to this podcast, or if you're, you know, in this circle. But I think as these cycles play out, it will just become more and more clear that Bitcoin is what you should be holding, Bitcoin is what you should be using to give yourself an opportunity. So that's kind of how I'm, I'm seeing it. But, it is not gonna be an easy pathway. So, I guess let's just kind of close with a few high-level thoughts or, or sort of bring it back to where we started, right? So as you said, the four kind of factors, the end of the big debt cycle, inflation as a constraint, war and de-globalization, and then lastly, the search for a new store of value. So, I guess that's probably-- I, I actually really like the framework. I think it's an interesting way to think of it because it's not just economics, it's also you have to understand a little bit of the politics of what A bit about, your new publication. You've got, Stack Macro Pro. So tell us a little bit about that." }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "53:14", "start": 3193.78, "text": "Yeah, Stack Macro Pro, it's just, something I just started. It's, it's really for anybody who enjoys conversations like we had today. I have a couple things on there. I have like a, a, called a newsletter that I put out pretty much every day, and then, a private podcast that I put out like once a, once a week. but yeah, for me, it's just like And, economics, et cetera, 'cause it just seems like they don't really take those four factors into account, right? Like they're, they're just kind of unaware of, you know, this end of the big debt cycle and the economic tensions between countries and things like that. So on Stack Macro, what I try to do is, is cover events with those lenses in mind. and then the other aspect of it is just, you know, having a community that also understands those things. And, you know, we have a forum and a, and a live chat" }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "54:04", "start": 3243.9, "text": "on The only one who sees it, right? So sometimes we're going through life and it feels like nobody around us has any clue of what's going on. So Stack Macro is kind of just the way I can bring some people together and, you know, we can help each other survive and, and kind of like thrive through these long-term trends. That's the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:20", "start": 3260.11, "text": "idea behind it. Fantastic. And so, yeah, we're, we're in this time where we have to be flexible. I think people have to be willing to, if things get really bad where you are, like, do you have some kind so that way, if you get shut down by the likes of PayPal or whoever else, that you have an alternative. So I think these are some of the things that we have to keep in our minds just as things are going, but, you know, we should still be optimistic about the future we can create if we can, encourage people to look into Bitcoin and really actually dive deep on Bitcoin. So I think that's probably a few, closing thoughts from me. Do you have any closing thoughts for listeners? Yeah, I love that," }, { "speaker": "stack_hodler", "time": "55:06", "start": 3306.06, "text": "I love that message. Optimistic, and, I, going back to your, your previous point of like, you know, people can always try to create value, and I think there's optimism just embedded in that, you know, whether it's, you know, perfecting a skill at, at your job or, or creating your own company or whatever, I think that that's kind of what keeps the economic gears turning, and, and also, yeah, there's just optimism built into that. So when it's really hard, or when times seem tough and, you know, markets are, Of the day, you know, we do have agency and, and we do have the ability to, to model our world kind of like how we want, even if things seem bad around us. So we'll leave it on that, we'll leave it on an optimistic note, but this was really great, Stephan, I, I appreciate that, and, I'm looking forward to meeting you in, in Lugano." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:51", "start": 3351.22, "text": "Yeah, I'm looking forward to meeting you also. So listeners, make sure you follow Stack, he's on Twitter, his handle is stackhodler, and his" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:04", "start": 3364.03, "text": "You can get the show notes over at stephanlivera.com/428 and remind PacificBitcoin.com for those of you interested to attend the fantastic upcoming conference, PacificBitcoin by SwanBitcoin. That's it from me. I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }