{ "episodeId": "SLP430", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "zero_fee_routing": { "name": "Zero fee routing", "role": "guest", "tag": "ZERO" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.55, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics, brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Have you wondered about the insights that can come from running one of the world's largest Lightning nodes? So for this episode, I chat with zero fee routing, the pseudonymous Lightning node runner who was running one of the largest Lightning nodes on the network, which Which added a little bit about his lessons learned from his experience running the node, why he's shutting it down, and why he might potentially come back in the future. Now, a quick message to make sure that you're aware of PacificBitcoin dot com. This is a Bitcoin conference organized by Swan Bitcoin. This may be one of the last episodes you listen to before the conference is on. It's on November 10th and 11th in LA, California, in Santa Monica. It's going to be an awesome experience. There are so many Bitcoiners coming along, people like Michael Saylor, Pierre Richard, Wolf von Leuer, Jeff Booth, Greg Foss, all kinds of people. It's gonna be an amazing experience, and I'm gonna be one of the hosts. I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of you there. I'll be moderating some panels also. So if you're interested to come, I really recommend you just come along, bring some friends along. It's a great opportunity to meet some bitcoiners, network with people, as well as learn about Bitcoin. It's over at pacificbitcoin dot com. Use code Laverara for a discount. Now, if" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:30", "start": 90.08, "text": "Bitcoin and Liquid wallet gain access to powerful features such as multi-signature security, full node verification and Tor support. So with Blockstream Green, you can use the multi-signature shield where you hold one key on your device and the other key is held on Blockstream's servers, so you can protect your wallet with two-factor authentication. Now, you can also have time locks or a third key backup to ensure that you always retain full ownership of your funds. Blockstream Green is integrated with hardware wallets such as Blockstream Jade, Ledger and Trezor. So you can get the best of both worlds, having cold storage alongside the full suite of features that Blockstream Green has. With Blockstream Green, you get a nice balance between convenience, security, and control. It's available for iOS, Android, or desktop, so go get it over at blockstream.com/green. And now onto the show with zero fee routing. Zero fee routing, welcome back to the show. Nice being here again. So, yeah, so we're here to do a little bit of a postmortem on, the zero fee routing project, and who knows, maybe someday you'll restart this back up, but, I thought this would be an interesting show for listeners who wanted some insight into what it was like for you, running the zero fee routing node. So, do you wanna just start off with why you've made this decision to close down?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "02:49", "start": 168.95, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:50", "start": 169.93, "text": "for me it was" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "02:51", "start": 171.35, "text": "always, a factor of, how, how much time I have to, to spend towards the node. I, was planning to move the node over to a more professional setting, but those plans didn't pan out in time. And since I'm expecting, my second ch-child, pretty soonish, and I don't have enough time to basically harden the node, appropriately, I decided to Just shut it down for the time being, see, if I can start it back up at a later time when I have enough mental and, and, and actual time capacity to, to, to do it correctly. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:34", "start": 213.92, "text": "And of course, congrats on the, the second child coming soon. So, family is very important. So, I don't think anyone's really faulting you there. I think what might be interesting for listeners and just people who are maybe interested observers of Bitcoin and the Lightning Network, there might be some people who say, \"Oh, look, this One of the big routing nodes, and even he couldn't do it. So your thought on that idea, like, is this-- Do you think there's some kind of infeasibility to do this, or do you believe that it will only-- that the bar will rise and it will be only, let's call it, semi-professional or professional people who can do this kind of business in the future? Yeah, that, that totally depends on" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "04:12", "start": 251.93, "text": "how things will develop right now. for me, it was never a charity, although I've been perceived that way. So for me, it was always, I was looking to make a return. I just tried a different approach, instead of charging for routing, I charged for opening channels to others. that was actually fairly profitable. I made about two ish percent, APY, so, so like a per two percent, return on, on, on my invested capital, which is okay, I guess. I, I, there, there is no market for Or lending out, Bitcoin. So, so there's no market price for that, so I don't know if it's, it's a good percentage or bad. But, yeah, th-th-that's where I was. I think this percentage is gonna rise a little bit with time as the market matures. right now there's tons and tons of liquidity basically given away for free by hobbyists, which is a great thing at this point in time, but I think this is gonna, th-th-that hobbyist movement is gonna professionalize quite a bit." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:19", "start": 319.25, "text": "I see. And just to, again Contextualize this for listeners. What size of node were you running? How many bitcoins were in that node in terms of capacity? Roughly how many channels were you running at this point, at that point?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "05:32", "start": 332.14, "text": "Yeah, yeah. When, when I, when I closed down, last week, the node was, I think right about a hundred Bitcoin public capacity. little less than half, was my liquidity, so it was fairly balanced for, for a node that size. It had one thousand six hundred channels roundabout, and it was one of the largest nodes in the network. I'd say one of the busiest, I think it's just, yeah, well, I don't know, because, because those numbers aren't public, so, so I guess, I, I was like one of the top five in, in, in size and, routing volume at that point in time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:15", "start": 375.28, "text": "Yeah, sure. and so I know you were also commenting on what is the fair way to unwind this thing, right? Because people had paid up-- an upfront fee for a certain amount of time, and so how do you then unwind it and what decision did you make in the end?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "06:33", "start": 392.89, "text": "Yeah, I've pondered about this quite a bit because, because I wanted to do it in the most fair and, and, and correct way possible, because as, as soon as you announce something like, \"Okay, I'm going to...\" To shut down, the, no new channels would be opened, all the channels would probably get closed, and so if, if somebody paid me for my liquidity and I changed my nature by saying, \"Okay, I'm, I'm gonna close all channels except those that were paid for,\" then they, they would have bought something very different than they were getting. So, so for me it was clear I can't do that without upsetting my customers and without being not a fair partner. And this is why I decided to basically-- and I'm still working on that, to basically refund all the channels that were open for payment in the last ninety days before me closing down. So, so I'm, I'm, I'm work-working on a way where people just basically authorize, the, the refund to wherever, and then they get an LN over, withdrawal link that they can then use with whatever wallet they, they have to, to get their sat back basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:43", "start": 463.07, "text": "Yeah, and I, I presume that must be a lot of- Manual work for yourself also in terms of doing all the, refunds for people." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "07:50", "start": 469.72, "text": "Yeah, I, I was gonna automate that basically, a hundred percent. So I'm gonna, create, withdrawal links for all the channels that I opened and then provide a way on my website where they, they, the customers can enter their data and then just get the refund. Yeah. Because otherwise, it's, it's, it's about, I think- Five to six hundred, refunds that I have, I would have to process. This is not" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:13", "start": 493.08, "text": "feasible to do that manually. I see. And you, over the course of time, there were a lot of people who just opened a channel to you off their own bat, that they just wanted to be connected with you because you're a well-connected node. So I'm curious as well, you mentioned to some extent this idea being a victim of your own success, would it have been easier if your node, paradoxically, would it have been easier for you if your node was actually a bit smaller?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "08:37", "start": 517.38, "text": "Yeah Depends on what, what the, what the goal is. A smaller node has less funds at risk, so of course it would be easier regarding how much you would have to do to secure it, because it, it, it becomes a very attractive target, if it's such a huge node. If, if it's one of the top five nodes, it's going to be one of the top five targets basically for, any kind of, attack. And I, I knew I wasn't gonna have the time to, to properly monitor that That, and then that's why I just decided to not half as basically just, yeah, shut it down. And yes, it w-it would have been easier if it was just like a smaller Raspiblitz node with a couple hundred, maybe two, three hundred channels, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:27", "start": 566.85, "text": "Yeah, totally fair. And so high level, what were some of the lessons you learned on this journey, of doing the zero fee routing project? the," }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "09:36", "start": 576.13, "text": "the lessons, yeah. it is an incredibly fast-growing space. The topology of the networks changes basically daily. Everybody has new ideas, tries out something. I really loved, running the node. I'm, I'm really gonna miss it. And, yeah, well, it's, it's, it's still a very, very new technology. there's stuff breaking at times. just yesterday we had that LND bug again where- Broke LND the second time in, in, I think in like two weeks or something like that. So, yeah, it's, it's, yeah. Plus, plus, I think a couple days ago, LND had a bug where funds were, where a change was sent to an address that the node actually didn't control, so the funds were basically lost. And this is stuff that, that, that usually doesn't happen, but it still can. And so, so it's, it's, it's not- Riskless to, to run, a routing node, and the larger the node is, the more risk it's at because, because you run into issues that nobody run, else runs into because, because you're just so big. This is what, what I had with, with, with CLN, I think like two or three times where I just ran into such a fringe, situation that, that nobody accounted for, that, that my node basically broke, which, which was great for the, the developers because they, they could fix it, but, but for me, it's like my node goes down, I have no idea what to do. And, and this, although the, the support from the, the core Lightning community was beyond excellent, it, it was like, my node went down and half an hour later I had, Rusty checking back on me, asking me if I could do X, Y, or Z to, to check if, if that fixes the issue. So that was, that was excellent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:26", "start": 685.79, "text": "Yeah, and I think in some ways it's, some people were willing to, like yourself, you were willing to really put yourself out there and just give this a try, and I think maybe that's why, Rusty and the core Lightning team obviously are, excited to see that, I, I can imagine. Yeah. because they're seeing somebody put their, So I, I think that's pretty interesting. I think the point you make about it not being riskless is an interesting one, because I think a lot of people focus on custodial risk, and that's right, custodial risk is a big risk, but I think maybe the point and the experiment that you were running and the project that you were running has shown it's not just about the custodial risk, it's also even in a non-custodial case, right? You're running your own Lightning node, you hold the keys, it's not custodial, but there are still all of these And so perhaps that, that's the question for people in their mind as well, like if they're saying, okay, two percent is the return I'm getting for that risk, is that a fair return? I mean, how much would it cost to secure, in this case, I mean, a hundred BTC, what's that? I mean, off the top of my head, what's that like two million in fiat terms? Yeah. You know, how much does it cost to secure that? So I think that, those are some of the questions, and of course, maybe that will come up" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:41", "start": 760.64, "text": "over" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:46", "start": 765.74, "text": "There'd be, you know, a lot more people who wanna buy channels from you. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "12:49", "start": 769.05, "text": "yeah. For, for me, it's like, it's like if, if you-- one of the reasons that, that made me, kind of reconsider, the, the amount of risk I was taking on is, it's like, if you have like a two percent, yield, that means if you get hacked in average at every fifty years, that, that won't mean you break even. and that's, that's fifty years running a node, with Without lo-losing it is not, I, I wouldn't bet that much money on a fifty-year timeframe that, that going well. So, so if, if you, if you, run a node and, and i-i-it breaks down or i-i-it has catastrophic loss or whatever, and, and you lose your funds, then it's like, yeah, well, th-th-that's, that's bound to happen at some point for, for somebody. And, so, so, yeah, you'd, you'd probably be better to- To not run one huge node, but do it like Ellen Big does it. He, he runs like, I think, thirty to forty nodes. So, so if, if you have one breakdown or one get hacked, you, you have a loss, but you don't lose all your, Of, of the capital at once." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:03", "start": 842.83, "text": "I see. But I think there was maybe an iconic aspect of, \"Oh, there's this one big node, \"and maybe there's a benefit to that. But I think to, to your point, and maybe to Stillman, what you're saying, it's like maybe the benefit is doesn't outweigh that level of risk of putting all your co- like all the coins into one big lightning node. So perhaps that's a lesson learned is to have maybe a network like LN Big style. Yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "14:25", "start": 864.83, "text": "And, and, and it is definitely easier to manage with, with little funds, but it was a great marketing aspect of it being such a huge centralizing force in the network. Basically everybody that, that, that knew about Mineo wanted to have a channel with it just because it, it, it made payments so, so cheap and, and easy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:47", "start": 887.38, "text": "I see. And so in some sense, maybe right now it's still hobbyist days, and they are effectively subsidizing because they're taking a risk, right? Because they wanna be the pioneers, they're kind of, they're out there They're trying to take that risk, and there are people who are effectively underpricing the liquidity that they place into their lightning nodes, or in other cases maybe they just have a lightning node more because they wanna be able to do personal payments, right? I think I'm probably more in that category, I'm not trying to be a routing person, I just, I just have it just to be able to make and take payments, I'm not trying to be a routing guy, per se, but I'm curious your thought there, do you believe the hobbyists are undervaluing? Their liquidity." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "15:32", "start": 932.03, "text": "hobbyists are always undervaluing whatever they put into their hobby, so they, they undervalue their time, they undervalue the, the, the funds. yes, that's the definition of being a hobbyist, basically. So, so yeah, they, they are, which is not a bad thing. it's just as the network matures, this is gonna-- I think this is gonna probably change a bit." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:55", "start": 954.55, "text": "Yeah, of course, because I think ultimately people will have alternative uses for their capital, now- Well, of course, or they, they may decide that the return isn't worth the risk in terms of hot wallet risk and so on, that they may decide, \"Look, I'm better off keeping my stuff in a multisig, you know, secured and therefore less risk of losing my, you know, stuff in some kind of hack or a bug or, you know, something that happens.\" So in terms of the key difficulties that you faced along the journey, if you, if you had to pick some of the high risks, what were some of those big risks?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "16:31", "start": 991.07, "text": "Oh, those were basically all hypothetical. So, so you basically, you have to make sure that the software that the node is running on is up to date, so there's no security leaks. You, you have to try to have as little software as possible running on the, on the machine. I did encrypt the com- the whole, drive that the node was running on, I encrypted that. I ran it from a, from a data center, so, so it was- A remote machine, and you have to account for rogue employees trying to break into the machine, getting the funds out. So, so, so there's like, like, tons and tons of attack vectors that you have, especially if you're not self-hosting at home, which for such a huge, node, you, you basically can't do. And so, so those were the issues I had at one time when I ran it from home. I had hardware issues, my, my, my disk broke down, and I almost lost- Ex-Access to that, that was, kind of touching gold there for a bit. And, yeah, that was like, like months back though. So," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:39", "start": 1058.66, "text": "yeah. So out of curiosity then, for the listeners running who, who want to run stuff at home, what are the main hurdles there? Like, is it that you need this really beefy box to run it from home? Is it that your internet connection needs to be really, really strong? Or is it actually maybe a physical security risk that you don't wanna, let's say, doxx your-- you're worried about doxing Address and obviously if the machine is hot and there's a lot of coins on there, is, is it that risk?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "18:05", "start": 1085.25, "text": "Yeah, well, if, if, if you're just running a, a personal node, which I really encourage everybody to do to their, to their personal lightning payments non-custodially, there's very little that you need to think about because if, if you put like I don't know, like a couple hundred bucks worth of, of Bitcoin on it to, to pay via Lightning, that, that's all easy, good to go, you can use a Raspberry Pi for that or something like that. If you wanna run a larger routing node, like, like tens to hundreds of bitcoins in, in, in capacity, things get very, very different because you have to account for, the, the, the public capacity is known and your IP address is known if you, if you're not using Using it if you're not a Tor-only node, and with the IP address comes the location. If you run it from home, your, your home location, at least for your, internet service provider will be known, and, and then things get risky, especially if you try to not dock your, your, your stack basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:10", "start": 1149.53, "text": "Yeah, I see. and so what about, in terms of the hardware required to run a larger node? What kind of hardware requirements did you face there?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "19:20", "start": 1159.87, "text": "Not, not really. H-hardware requirements, at least with, with, Core Lightning, was not an issue at all. I, I could have done, I, I had a much beefier machine than I needed. I could have done it with like sixteen gigs of RAM, about a hundred, two hundred gigs of, disk space besides the, the, the, the blockchain storage for Bitcoin D, but that, that's, a-and that was one of the largest nodes in the network. So, so you can do it with fairly, fairly Fairly weak machine actually, or old machine basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:52", "start": 1192.37, "text": "Right, that makes it interesting then, because, yeah, there's a possibility there, for other people who want to do this. I think maybe if-- then, is it fair to understand, or at least as I read you, then, you're saying the biggest security risk was really more just like the hot wallet risk, that was really the biggest risk?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "20:10", "start": 1209.59, "text": "Yes, yes, yes. The, the hot wallet risk, the, the, the fact that your funds are always on the move, you, you, you have channels open those f-funds that you get from the closing go to a wallet, this, that, and the other, and you constantly have, have, have your funds moving, and, hot funds are always at risk. There, there's, there's tons and tons of, tons of stuff that can go wrong, with hot funds, even despite, getting, getting them stolen, you, you might lose Access to your disk for whatever reason you, you, yeah, there's, there's stuff that can go wrong." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:47", "start": 1246.71, "text": "Yeah. And were you paranoid or concerned about any of those other attacks that would periodically get disclosed on some of these academic papers? So for example, there was Flood and Loopt, or there were some of these other ideas around channel jamming. Were you concerned about any of those with your big zero fee routing node? Moderately concerned." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "21:07", "start": 1266.54, "text": "It's, it's not like I, I went out of my way to, to harden Against those kinds of attacks, which probably, if, if you-- the, the larger you get, the more you have to pay attention to these kinds of attacks because you're probably one of the targets that, that doesn't happen to you if you run like a very, very small lightning routing node or a medium-sized routing node. So, so yeah, it, it is an issue, but I didn't lose any sleep over it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:35", "start": 1294.88, "text": "I see, yeah. And, so I, I know there were obviously in that time that you were running The node, you had, you had your own journey, as we spoke about on the, on the earlier show, you started with LND, then you switched to Core Lightning. Did any of the vulnerabilities shake your faith in the Lightning network? Like, so for example, this recent one where Barach basically caused some difficulties for the LND node runners out there and the, the Lightning Labs team. Did any of that shake your confidence in the Lightning network, going forward? No," }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "22:05", "start": 1325.14, "text": "not at all. it's just for, for my risk appetite plus- My time, it's just not, not right, right now. I, I do plan on, on, on, on coming back eventually if there's still demand for what I did, which I think right now there, there is, but probably in a more professional setting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:27", "start": 1347.48, "text": "I see, yeah. And so in terms of the time commitment, can you elaborate a bit there, like how much time did it really take to go and do all these things around maintenance, securing your node, and all of those aspects?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "22:40", "start": 1360.46, "text": "It's fuzzy to describe because, because there's so much to it. It's, it's like talking to others on Twitter, chatting on Telegram. Then there's, the actual maintenance of the node itself. Then there's, I had an API, I had a website, and so, so there's tons of stuff. And then you read about channel jamming or, or, that, that, that jam and loot, attack that was published, I think, last week or something like that. A-and then you kinda have to dig a little bit deeper Deeper and, and see, is that an actual risk that I'm running right now? And, and how, how big is it? And, and this, this stuff takes time. So there's, I, I couldn't tell you I spend like X amount of hours per day, be-because it's, it's just like an hour here and half an hour there, then you hear about hosted channels from Fiat Jeff and you get excited about that and lose a couple of hours there." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "23:36", "start": 1416.34, "text": "Yeah. It's, i-if, if you're, if you're really interested in it and, and- And try to, to get a feel of the whole field, it is pretty time consuming." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:46", "start": 1425.93, "text": "Yeah, and I think that's totally fair. it's, it's early days still, and there's all these new things still being found. But yeah, I think fundamentally for the average person who just wants-- like, if they want to run a Lightning node, you know, they, they could do it with a little bit of research and a bit of time and work. it's perhaps not as easy as just running a Bitcoin node, right? I think it's fair to say." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "24:08", "start": 1448.28, "text": "Yeah On running a hundred bit Bitcoin capacity node with thousands of channels, it, it, it basically takes no time. So just start it up, let it run, be done. The, the only thing that makes it time intensive is the, is the whole business around, around of it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:29", "start": 1468.93, "text": "Yeah, so you had to run a website where people could buy channel from you, and I, I presume you also had to spend at least some time doing customer support, customer service, or at least if something went wrong, you had to get back to them and manage that part of it. So as a, as a one man band, a one man business, then you have to also think about the time cost and effort that you're putting into it for that, for that two percent in this example. it's, it's quite possible that in the future that that would rise let's say there's a lot more people using the Lightning Network, maybe there's a lot more demand, maybe that goes up to five percent or ten percent, and, potentially, let's say there's a Bitcoin bull cycle, and you know, Bitcoin does a ten X or a twenty X, now at that point, now it starts to maybe be worth your while again, right? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "25:17", "start": 1517.06, "text": "yeah, ex-exactly. So, so it's basically a, a, a risk reward, plus, how you value your own time. So, so if" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "25:28", "start": 1528.19, "text": "I As a hobbyist project because the time I invested in it, even if I don't account for my, my opportunity cost with the capital, it was not a nice hourly wage basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:42", "start": 1542.3, "text": "Right. but that's, you know, that's like we said, that's as it is, you know, today in, let's call it over twenty twenty-one and twenty twenty-two when you ran this thing. Imagine, in a few years' time, let's say there's been a si-another cycle, Bitcoin is like ten X, and, you know, at that point, it might Be worth your while. So, it, it might- Yeah, but we don't know, of course, we don't know. It" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "26:03", "start": 1563.07, "text": "completely depends on, on, on how the network itself develops and where we, we land basically regarding the, the, the interest, that, that you can basically generate with running a node." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:15", "start": 1575.4, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And so, I guess one other aspect, how much did the node require constant monitoring? Right? It's like, as I understand, some people have a job where they're on call, right? So the idea is they're But they have to basically have the phone by their side and be ready for the call to say, \"Hey, come in, we need you to fix this.\" Did it feel a bit like that when you were running zero fee routing node?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "26:37", "start": 1597.24, "text": "Very, very little, because, because, if, if the node goes down, I, I didn't, didn't have like a whole battery of stuff that, that informed me about that, but I, I usually got Telegram messages basically right away, anyways. So, so yeah, it's kind of like you're on call, but S-since everybody knew this is, this is like a hobbyist project, nobody was mad at me if the node was down for like a couple hours or so, which, which happened, I think, just once. So, yeah, but, but it, it's kind of like, you know, you have the maintenance, and, and if it goes down, you have to bring it back up because otherwise you might, get your funds stolen by somebody publishing old channel states and whatever, and, and so it, it is, you, you can't just go wait for two weeks and not" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:25", "start": 1644.68, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Unchain Capital are making it easy for you to improve your self custody with multi-signature vaults. As you may be aware in the space, there are often hacks or situations where an exchange or a custodian doesn't let you. But use your own coins or spend those coins that you thought were yours. This is why it's important to self custody, and with Unchained Capital, they are helping you remove single points of failure in your setup. They can create a vault where you alone can spend the coins without any interference from anybody else. With Unchained Capital, they've got a concierge onboarding program where they can ship you the hardware devices if you need, they can do a call with you, teach you how to create the vault and withdraw from your exchange or even out of your single signature hardware wallet into your own Your own vault. So if you're interested in this, go find out more over at Unchained dot com. It is available for personal or business accounts also, so that's Unchained dot com slash concierge. Use code Livera for a discount. Are you still using a plain old block explorer? Mempool dot space is the next generation explorer that shows you the fully fledged multi-layer ecosystem. Now, of course, as for this episode, we're chatting with zero fee routing. A great feature here is the Lightning explorer available on Mempool dot space. So you can go there, you Are the top nodes by connectivity, you can see things like the PPM, the parts per million fee that they are charging on their various channels. You can see which channels they have open, you can see even the on-chain UTXO that relates to that lightning channel open or closed. So mempool.space is a fantastic explorer, now you can host it yourself, you can run it on your own, and of course, it is available on some of the full node distributions like Umbrel, Raspiblitz, and so on. And now, if you are with an enterprise, mempool.space Offers customized mempool instances with your company's branding, so go and learn more over at mempool dot space slash enterprise. And finally, when it comes to Bitcoin hardware and accessories in the space, coinkite dot com is the site to go and check out. They have a range of products, most notably is the Coldcard MK4, the latest version, the latest edition. It has two secure elements, it has NFC support, so that's an interesting new way of transacting with Bitcoin that we can use for perhaps our less secure setups or maybe one of your keys in a multi-signature. Using NFC, they also have more RAM and more CPU built into the MK4. This is a really reliable performer, and I particularly like that you can set up and initialize your Bitcoin wallet without ever plugging it into a computer. You can literally plug your cold card into the wall or use the cold power to power your cold card and set it up that way. They also have cheaper devices such as the TapSigner and the SatsCard. You can find out more over at CoinKite dot com, get a discount on your cold card with the code Livera. And now back to the show with With zero fee routing. Yeah, yeah, understood. And so going forward, in terms of making it more accessible or more secure for node runners in the future, are there any features that you would like to see come in, into the main Lightning node implementations, whether that's Core Lightning or LND or, Rust Lightning or Eclair, or, you know, is there, are there any particular features that you think need to be fixed up or implemented?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "30:40", "start": 1839.88, "text": "No, I think, I think Actually, I think the, the feature set that, that is already there is, is pretty powerful and pre-pre good actually. there, there's been tons and tons of development, for core Lightning with, commando and runes where you can basically give very, very, very precise access to just certain functions and also those certain functions just with different certain values that you can basically tell, here's a A key that only can open channels, with sizes from one million satoshi to five million satoshi, and the key can only do this, that it can't do nothing else. So, the, the, that's pretty, pretty darn good. The, and, and again, if, if you just run your own personal node for your personal stuff, it's basically absolutely a no-brainer to do, but as, as, as soon as you start getting big, and, and that, that's where, where I was, and I didn't intend- And to, to become number five regarding, with regards to amount of channels, it just happened. And you, you can't, you can't stop the growth basically. I, I couldn't stop the growth. There was no way to discourage, others opening channels to me basically, despite, charging fees or something." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:00", "start": 1920.1, "text": "But I'm curious then, actually, let's say you got to a point where, you know, you're above a certain size, is it possible that you could just restrict new channels unless they were a paying customer?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "32:08", "start": 1928.5, "text": "Yeah, yeah, of course. That, that would One option to basically disallow, incoming channels, that, that were basically unsolicited incoming channels. Yeah, that, that would have been one option. Stuff that I thought about, when, thinking about my options regarding the, the node and its future." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:27", "start": 1946.98, "text": "Yeah, and so another angle that we can approach this from is this idea of the market for an LSP, Lightning Service Provider, because users in the Lightning Network, maybe, if you're newer, you won't really understand this, and maybe you just use an app like... Say Breeze as an example, and Breeze in the background will connect, you know, to LSPs or, I know, John Cavallo's new wallet, the Bitkit wallet, has this idea of Blocktank, which is the LSP in the background. So in one sense, you are operating as sort of like an LSP, so I'm curious your thoughts on where the whole LSP market goes, like, will it be a merchant-facing function or will it be, let's say, some- The LSPs are serving the end customer, the end user, let's say just the average guy who wants to pay or receive." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "33:18", "start": 1997.65, "text": "I think it's gonna be both. I think LSP is where it's at right now with, with Lightning. So this is where tons of innovation happens right now. There is, is a bunch of LSPs popping up right now, and I think there, there will be LSPs that serve huge, retailers or merchants, and there will- Will be LSPs like, like Breeze is an LSP basically that serves, the users of the Breeze wallet by opening channels on demand, incidentally to, for them. So, I think that's, that's, it's gonna be a huge market, where it's gonna end up, I have no idea, we just have to wait and see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:58", "start": 2038.18, "text": "Right. Yeah. And I think you're right to point out that there are different elements and different components involved here. So another example could even be some LSPs who act as a swap provider, so for They help people who are, say, swapping off and on chain. So as an example, you can pay them on Lightning, and then they can pay you out on chain, or I think they can also do vice versa as well. And I'm sure you understand this zero, but just, just for listeners. So that's perhaps another angle that, LSPs could go where you have to sort of manage an on-chain and an off-chain balance, and so I'm curious from your perspective, you, you didn't really have to deal with much of that, right? Because your service channel, you just pay me upfront, so it's a very, I guess, simple model in that way." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "34:44", "start": 2084.49, "text": "Yeah, exactly. For, for me, it was, I didn't, swap or loop out actively, to, to get new liquidity, but for me, it was basically like, I got incoming channels from others, when they got closed, I received funds back on chain that I could then reuse to open channels to again. So for me, the, the whole on chain, off chain, thing was basically channels being open to me and getting closed again, organically, so I, I usually didn't force that, but, for the, the management of on chain versus off chain funds is gonna be a huge deal. So y-although- Off-chain funds have more utility because you, you can pay more easily with them. They come basically at, a discount, so you, you have to pay if you want to have on-chain funds. Basically, this is the loop charges, I think, right about one percent or, sorry, point one percent to switch your off-chain funds to on-chain funds. Others like, like DZ do that with a, I think, fairly similar rate, and, and this is, this is gonna be hugely interesting, thing regarding switching from off-chain to on-chain and, and who's getting paid for what and what has more price right now, off-chain funds, have, lower price than on-chain funds basically, so you have to pay if you want to move your off-chain funds to on-chain." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:17", "start": 2177.25, "text": "I see, yeah. So in other words, if you have mon-funds, quote unquote, in Lightning, i.e. your UTXO has been put into a Lightning channel, then for you to get them back out to an on-chain balance, let's say, you have to pay Right now. And, I mean, generally speaking, you have to pay if you're swapping either way, but it's kind of-- it depends what kind of service and how you're doing it. and I think it's also, there's all-- there's just so many different variables all, all in the air at, at once, right? Because it matters how many people are using Lightning, it matters how many merchants are accepting Lightning. So, for example, we saw this recent news, Pick and Pay is doing Lightning payments, and they're apparently like a, a big supermarket chain in South" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:00", "start": 2220.42, "text": "500 stores, eventually. And so that's gonna be cool to see, and if lots of people are paying with Lightning, especially non-custodially, then, you know, maybe that's, that's gonna start driving a lot of fees, and then we'll start seeing this behavior. a-and then the other big factor, of course, the other big elephant in the room is the, quote-unquote, fee market or the block space market, right? Because in recent times, one sat per byte would pretty much clear ev- eventually. What happens if we do get a This market, then maybe that makes the whole lightning routing node operator or your business model even more feasible or more needed." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "37:39", "start": 2258.75, "text": "Yes, exactly. So, so right now with the extremely low on-chain fees, especially if you, if you, if you don't mind waiting overnight, you could basically always get one sat per byte transactions through. So you basically for, like, like ten, fifteen cent, you, you could get your transaction through. So for any payment larger than, I don't know, like a couple hundred dollars, on chain would be the cheaper way to do it, unless you needed instant confirmation. So, so what Lightning brings is instant transaction finality, which is great because that hasn't existed before Lightning, that, that, that neither in, in, in, in Bitcoin nor in the, traditional financial world. So, so this is crazy innovative. So, yeah. but, but if you, if you don't mind waiting, doing on-chain is the option. Right now, as long as we have that low fee environment, if we pay ten dollars per transaction on chain, things change. But yeah, maybe we, we'll get there in, in the next couple of years, but right now it doesn't look like it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:58", "start": 2337.72, "text": "Right. I think it depends how many people are pulling out their coins out of the exchanges and operating in a non-custodial environment. Of course, we encourage this. I know that the reality today is that there are a lot of custodial users who are, let's say, just as an example, using Binance You know what I mean? These aren't people who necessarily-- they don't know who you are, they don't know who, you know, Jimmy Song or Jameson Lopp or any of these people. They just, they just use some custodial exchange because that's, from their perspective, that's what they want, because they don't know any better, right? Or they-- maybe they don't care, but about the kind of non-custodial ethos. Now, of course, we're trying to encourage that, we want more people to do that, but we also know that that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:45", "start": 2384.77, "text": "Everything in the long term, it's necessary at some point. Yeah. and so, yeah, I guess it's interesting to see where it goes, and then at that time, if, let's say fee, the fee market or block space market, more precisely, goes up, then you really do start to need these swap providers, whether they are on and off-chain swap providers, because there might be people who want to operate more natively in a lightning environment, in a lightning context, but there may be times where they need to- Periodically, let's say, flush some of their lightning balance out into an on-chain, potentially into an on-chain hot wallet or maybe even the on-chain multisig wallet, because that's, that's going into your savings. So it's kind of interesting to see that dynamic play out." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "40:29", "start": 2429.3, "text": "Plus the, the, the in-increase in, in, in on-chain fees would also change the whole, dynamic for the lightning network the way it's run now, because right now it's, it's cheap to open channels and be wrong about them. So you basically you open a channel Channel to another node just on a whim, see if it routes anything, and if it doesn't, you just close it because, well, that's thirty cents down the drain, lesson learned. But i-if it costs like, like twenty bucks to open and close a channel, you think twice before opening channels. And also for, for, for LSPs like, like, like I was, if you open channels and it, it, the amount of capital you in-invest is, is like, like thirty cents, and if, if things go really wrong, I had, I I had, one channel close, forced close that had thirty pending HTLCs, basically my, my maximum that I allowed, and they closed at a, at an incredibly high, fee environment because, I don't know At the time they, those transactions happened, each of them was carrying like a three, thousand sat fee with it. So I, I had like ninety thousand satoshis in, in fees for that first close. So that, that became extremely expensive for me. And because I, I opened that channel for way less than, than it, the, the first close cost" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:54", "start": 2513.58, "text": "there. So that's an example where you had an unprofitable channel that's, which is, quite a shame. Yes." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "42:00", "start": 2519.57, "text": "Exactly. Even though I sold it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:03", "start": 2522.75, "text": "Yeah, that's really weird to think about, but I mean, yeah, totally makes sense, right? And so, yeah, ninety thousand satoshis are gone unfortunately because of that HTLC, aspect. So I'm curious then as well, like in terms of Lightning wallets and things like that at the consumer grade, like if people are just talking about the typical wallets that people will use that we like, that we, we, we might tell people to use as a non-custodial first-time user, so people say, \"Okay, go to Moon Or, or Breeze or Phoenix as an example. But in the case of, say, Moon Wallet, it's kind of like doing a lot of on-chain transactions because they use a lot of these swaps. And so in a high fee environment, the Moon Wallet ends up costing that user a lot because it's not Lightning native per se. Yeah. Whereas let's say Phoenix and Breeze, they are Lightning native, so they can sort of handle the Lightning aspect more easily of just staying in Lightning and not having to go on chain all the time. But perhaps the trade-off then is you're paying for, liquidity, as part of the cost, whereas, I guess Moon is kind of wearing some of that cost for the users and, you know, that, remain-- and, yeah, so that kind of maybe raises questions about the sustainability of that model, I, I don't know." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "43:15", "start": 2594.54, "text": "Yeah, yeah, but especially with regards to Moon, I never fully understood how it worked, and also they aren't very transparent about how it works. I think it works non-custodially, and the way I understand- Understood it works is they take on a bunch of risk. So the, the, the end user doesn't take on risk basically at all, but they take on a bunch of risk. So, especially in a high fee environment, I think they would have quite the trouble being profitable with, with what they do. So, same, same for, for others like Breeze, but they, and, and, Phoenix, but they could simply just raise the fees for- The channels that they open to you, so they, they could kind of mitigate for, for high fees on the blockchain." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:05", "start": 2645.41, "text": "Yeah, I see. And as I understand, I believe Moon are looking to eventually go more Lightning native too, but they're just not at that level yet, or there's some more engineering work before they can get to that. But it'll be interesting to see what, what happens with all of that. Also, splicing, I think that's an interesting idea as well. So splicing is this idea that we can resize our channels without closing them. Do you think splicing changes Routing or how would you foresee that, changing routing?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "44:34", "start": 2674.15, "text": "I, I don't think it's gonna change too much. I think it, it, it saves like, at one transaction on chain, so it, so it reduces the cost a little bit. But especially since, since, now Core Lightning two supports multiple channels per peer for a while now, it, it isn't nice to have. I don't think it's mission critical right now. Maybe I'm, I'm underestimating The, the upside of it, especially in a high fee environment, it might be quite interesting, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:06", "start": 2706.01, "text": "Yeah. And then, what about, collaborative channel opens? I'm curious your thoughts on that and how that might influence the whole market for routing. Do you have any thoughts on this idea?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "45:16", "start": 2716.24, "text": "Yeah, I, I think, that is one of the huge, huge, huge, upsides of, of lightning, that you c- you could, in theory, open, collaboratively open a channel where Its balance from the get-go, Core Lightning supports this, from, Lisa Nagy-Gutniffenay's dual funded channels liquidity ads. I still run, crowdfunding for getting that implemented for LND as well, because I think it's-- it, it could be hugely beneficial to the whole network if, if everybody could open and advertise their own liquidity in the, in the market, it, it would be Very much a decentralizing force in the market if, if that gets more widely used. I hope it's getting built. That's all I can say about that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:07", "start": 2766.68, "text": "Yeah, so there's some of these ideas that I have noticed coming out of the core Lightning camp, so things like liquidity ads and the collaborative channel opens idea, and, also even some of the blockstream guys like Warren Togami talking about peer swap. I think that's a really cool idea, and maybe that's early, but, I, I'd love to see that. I'm, I'm curious if you Thoughts on, PeerSwap. Actually, could you just give a, a high level what is PeerSwap and any thought on what that does?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "46:32", "start": 2791.76, "text": "PeerSwap basically allows, direct peers to move Funds from off-chain to on-chain, and I think the other way around. So you basically could request a peer where the liquidity in the channel is all, on your side. You could send funds off-chain over to them, non-casually, so you basically d-- you don't risk the funds, you don't have to trust them. You send funds over to them, and they swap it out on-chain, with you, and you get the funds returned on-chain. That, that, the upside of that is You, don't have to do channel rebalancing and you can get the channel balanced or balanced, more balanced, just by directly swapping with, with your peer. the reason why I didn't run this is, because what I did is I basically sold my on-chain liquidity, and if I offer free, in a way, free peer swaps, I, I would basically give away for free What I was otherwise selling. that, that's why peer swapping was not an option for me, otherwise I would have done it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:43", "start": 2863.12, "text": "Right." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "47:43", "start": 2863.42, "text": "Because it's, the, the concept is great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:46", "start": 2866.37, "text": "Yeah. And so let's put it this way, on-- if you were running your personal lightning node with Core Lightning, you would enable peer swap and you would use it, but if you're running it as a business, then maybe not, because that's what you're selling." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "47:57", "start": 2877.17, "text": "Yeah, it depends on the, what, what kind of business you are, but if, if you're in For what they can get for free" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:08", "start": 2888.02, "text": "now. Yeah, that's totally fair. but it, it does make a lot of interesting possibilities even to potentially make Lightning more private also, because in this way, people can start managing some of their liquidity without using a centralized provider of liquidity that if they start doing peer swapping with their peers, then it might be a way for people to, you know, loop out as an example without going through some centralized entity or some known entity, just through a peer, right?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "48:35", "start": 2915.22, "text": "Yeah. Plus, it, it's gonna be- Be a lot cheaper too, because, for if you, if you loop out or if you use, Deez's swap service or something like that, you not only pay the service that is switching your funds from off-chain to on-chain, you also have to pay to get your funds to them. And especially with Loop, that's usually, if, if that alone is usually point one percent of the amount you're looping out. So, so if, if you could just peer swap it, even if the peer took Take a fee for it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:08", "start": 2948.04, "text": "It, it could be interesting. Yeah. so when it comes to Lightning Network, are there any other things that you're excited about? What are you-- Well, what are you most excited about, coming in the Lightning Network?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "49:18", "start": 2957.91, "text": "I'm ex-- I, I am, actually really excited about, hosted channels, even though they are custodial. the reason why I am is because they solve an issue that we have when onboarding new users. Breeze solved this very, very elegantly and, and, and- Great, because they open a channel to you, a non-custodial channel to you on the fly when receiving a payment and basically take a little bit off that payment to pay for the, the channel you're receiving. but the, the issue we have is if you have a new- someone you wanna onboard onto Lightning, you can't do that in a non-custodial fashion easily because you would have to open a channel to them, then you would have to wait for X confirmations on chain, which usually is three, takes about half an hour. And so if, if you're sitting at a table with somebody, getting them all excited about Lightning, and then you tell them, \"Okay, I'm gonna open a channel to you, let's wait for an hour so the channel is open,\" that kind of like takes away the The thunder quite a bit. And with hosted channels, you could receive that payment instantly. Yes, it's not, it's, it's custodial, so you, you basically don't have the funds, but you're owed the funds. But you could then use those funds to purchase a channel afterwards, like a non-custodial channel, and move the funds over there. So you could basically onboard users instantly and then tell them You-- those aren't really your funds, you just own these funds by some other entity. Get a non-custodial channel at some point, but for the initial, I'm gonna show you how it works, it's actually pretty great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:02", "start": 3061.53, "text": "I see. And so I've heard people explain it almost like a virtual channel at the start, and then later, once you turn it into a real channel, then there's non-custod-- then it's non-custodial, right? E-Exactly." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "51:13", "start": 3073.42, "text": "It's, it's basically, it is a virtual channel. It's, Channel accepts the payment for you and sends the payment out for you, so you, you basically, you need their collaboration if they shut you down. You can prove cryptographically that they cheated you out of those funds, but, other than that, you would have no If it's an unknown entity, you, all you have is like that, that proof that, that they cheated you. Well, it's better, it's better than nothing. If, if because of wallet of Satoshi, for some reason decided to shut some, some wallets down, you would have no proof besides a screenshot. With, with hosted channels, you, you can cryptographically prove that the node with PubKey X cheated you out of funds. So, yeah, it's, it's a little bit." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:02", "start": 3121.57, "text": "Yeah, it's at least something. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, it's at least something." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "52:06", "start": 3126.19, "text": "It, it keeps the peer honest because, especially if it's for, for pocket change amounts of money, like, like below hundred dollars, and they run a huge service, like, like if If Bitfenix decided to do that, for example, they basically are a custodian anyways, so they, they could do hosted channels easily from a regulatory standpoint. They ha-- they would have no interest in cheating people out of their money because that would just kill their reputation. Of course, if, if you have a unknown entity in the Lightning Network that offers hosted channels, you should, should very much think whether you want to have them owe you money if you don't even know who they are and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:49", "start": 3169.22, "text": "Yeah, of course. Yeah, so maybe it's a tool there to leverage if the entity or individual already has an existing reputation that they don't wanna lose, and therefore there's at least some level of, you know, reputational loss if they were to try to rug everyone." }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "53:05", "start": 3185.17, "text": "I consider doing that, but the regulatory, situation is that you, you become a custodian, and being a custodian is generally, not a good idea for things. single person if other people owe you money. So I decided against it, although I, I really liked the idea, and I have a node running with hosted channels for myself, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:28", "start": 3208.18, "text": "just" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "53:28", "start": 3208.44, "text": "personal use" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:29", "start": 3209.14, "text": "hosted channels. Yeah, that's interesting to see. one other idea I was curious to get your thoughts on is this whole hardware signer, right? So you might have heard, I'm sure you've seen, this idea of validating Lightning signer or hardware signing, this idea that it's a, a piece of hardware that maybe has certain policy rules Incorporated into it to give you something like, more like a, let's call it a warm wallet instead of a hot wallet. What are your thoughts on that, and would that be potentially useful for you the next time you start this zero fee routing up? It is," }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "54:02", "start": 3242.19, "text": "it is. The, the, the, the validating light signer project is like the most interesting project right now in the space because it would allow to, define rules so that the lightning signer just signs certain types of transactions. Transactions like, like routing forwards, for example, or channel openings, and you could basically configure it to just do that and nothing else, and you could just leave it running, and basically your funds wouldn't be, not at risk is such an absolute term, but they would be way less at risk if, if you run it with a validating like a signer, you wouldn't, you, you could just run the lightning signer from your home or once secure. Location and have the node sit somewhere else, so that it's an extremely interesting, project. I'm looking very much forward to it becoming reality and, with it, the green line, the green light wallet from, from, Blockstream." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:03", "start": 3302.69, "text": "Yeah, and so that could become a useful tool or even an essential tool for anybody who's running a professional level lightning routing node, right? So if you're running something with h- tens, hundreds of coins on there, then, yeah, maybe it really is It's about to become very much worth your while to look into the whole validating lightning signer project. I, I actually will be chatting with those guys, but, when they're ready, to go on the show. So that'll be an interesting one. Yeah, so I guess, is there anything else, in the lightning network that you're looking forward to, or how about just in a, from a Bitcoin perspective, is there anything that you're looking forward to or anything, on your mind from a Bitcoin perspective?" }, { "speaker": "zero_fee_routing", "time": "55:42", "start": 3342.23, "text": "Oh, I'm, I'm just still Lightning have developed in the last couple of years. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very, very bullish on the technology. I don't expect it to go away. I expect, Lightning to become the de facto standard for, Bitcoin transaction over time because it's just so instant and, and generally great. There's tons and tons of improvement, in the pipeline there. I can't wait to see it all. I will definitely still be Key in the space, will, monitor especially for validating Lightning Signer, especially for that tool, and hopefully make a return sometime next year or in twenty twenty-four, maybe, let's see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:33", "start": 3392.64, "text": "Fantastic. Well, yeah, listeners make sure you check out Zero Fee Routing. You can find him on Twitter. I'll link, everything in the show notes. And, Zero, thanks for joining me again. Thank you for having me. Get the show notes at stephanlivera dot com slash four three zero. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }