{ "episodeId": "SLP434", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador": { "name": "Jeremy of Escape to El Salvador", "role": "guest", "tag": "JEREMY" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.55, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Have you wondered about what it's like escaping to El Salvador? This episode explores this question further. Now, if you're thinking about the holiday season and gifting, consider Swan. Swan is the sponsor of this show, and Swan are making it easy to gift Bitcoin to your friends and family while also giving them the benefit of Of Bitcoin education at the same time. The website is swan dot com slash gift. 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So just some background on this episode, I was recently in El Salvador for adopting Bitcoin, and I had the chance to meet Jeremy of Escape to El Salvador, and I thought this would be a really good episode to give you some context on what it is actually like in El Salvador, what's the response from people on the ground, what is it like for them spending Bitcoin, living on Bitcoin. This episode will give you some answers. So here is my conversation with Jeremy. Jeremy, welcome to the show. thank you for having me. So, Jeremy, I was impressed with my recent visit to El Salvador, and I saw your talk at, at adopting Bitcoin, and wanted to get you on the show because I think a lot of my listeners will be interested to hear from you and just to understand a little bit on the ground, what is it really like there. So, perhaps you could tell us a little bit of your background and how you ended up in El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "03:53", "start": 233.07, "text": "Sure. So, I've been in the Bitcoin space for a while and, Projects and doing, a Bitcoin help desk in the US, but a few years ago, I started seeing the writing on the wall, and I realized that the US wasn't a place that I wanted to be anymore, so I convinced my family to, to leave, and we've been traveling. We spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe, and right around the same time that the COVID panic was really starting to, to set in in Eastern Europe, they were sort of behind the, the curve, I guess, the Bitcoin law was being passed in El Salvador, so it was a no-brainer for set up and we're all now, residents and we're working towards our citizenship, and I had to become a subject matter expert in the residency process and in the business creation process, and it made sense to open that up for other people as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:43", "start": 283.2, "text": "Fantastic. So let's talk a bit high level about El Salvador because I think these are the questions people have on their mind, right? So some people are saying these questions like, \"Oh, okay, and maybe we'll, we'll dig into these individually, but some of the high level ones are, are there gangs there? Is President Becerra Is he a dictator? You know, is he spying on the opposition? Is he rigging the Supreme Court? Is he violating term limits? So these are, I'm, I'm sure you probably hear these, these are probably commonly asked questions that you probably have to deal with. So let's deal with some of those. So let's start at the beginning. Are there gangs? Is there a big gang presence in El Salvador today, as we speak in November twenty" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "05:19", "start": 319.13, "text": "twenty-two? Well, not anymore. Obviously, there used to be. El Salvador was a very violent place. we had" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "05:30", "start": 329.93, "text": "But all of the gang members are incarcerated now, and we're actually on track to wrap up twenty twenty-two with a homicide rate of just shy of ten per every hundred thousand. To give you a sense of perspective there, that's like the homicide rate in Austin, Texas, and there are just numerous cities in the United States that are, that are far more dangerous. I'll, I'll go ahead and list 'em 'cause I did the research this morning, but Los Angeles, Miami, Portland, Atlanta. By the way, Atlanta has triple the homicide rate of El Salvador, and most people wouldn't bat an eye before visiting there, so, I think it'll take a while for the perception to catch up with reality, but, it's very safe here now." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:09", "start": 368.86, "text": "Fantastic. And so the higher level question where people believe that, let's say, despite his high approval rating, that somehow President Bukele is doing things that seem like a dictator would or doing things in an improper way, do you have any comment for listeners who are outside El Salvador?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "06:28", "start": 387.69, "text": "Yeah, I mean, there, there are a couple of things. Let's- Let's not strip away the agency of the, the Salvadoran population, right? for them to, to feel that they are, you know, supporting President Becelis is a very strong signal to, to make. By the way, that the, these polls that we're talking about, they're not from inside El Salvador. These are like Gallup polls. These are polls from international agencies, agencies that one might even think had a, had a reason to, to make the number lower than it actually is, right? So for the fact that it's so high, it really should tell Something and don't just be, you know, dismissive of the average Salvadoran opinion and think that, oh, they're not educated or, or they don't know what's going on. The average Salvadoran is very clued in to the politics that are happening here locally. So when you see numbers like that, you know that there's, that there's really something behind them." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:18", "start": 438.42, "text": "Fantastic. And so to the specific questions, I don't, I don't know how much in the detail you are, but some of the charges, let's say against President Bukele are things Or, you know, any, do you have any idea what's the perception and what's the reality there?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "07:36", "start": 455.92, "text": "Yeah, so I mean, the perception is people will say dictator or tyrant or autocrat or all of these things, but, I think it's important to, to note that words have meanings for a reason. All of these terms, would describe a person who acts outside of the law, or who disregards human rights or, you know, is obviously corrupt. But when we-- So we're- We're, we're really presented with the question, does President Becelley display these characteristics? And the obvious answer is no, but I'll give you a more nuanced reply because your, your listeners may not be, you know, up to date on the current politics. everything that has happened has happened within a, a legislative process, right? El Salvador is a constitutional republic, and like many other countries, it has a separation of powers between the legislative and executive and judicial branches. everybody has checks and balances, and there's- There's a process that, that has to happen in order for, for example, judges to be replaced. And the judges that were replaced, were replaced according to the, the, the letter and the spirit of the law. So everything that has been done up to this point has been completely congruent with, El Salvador's traditions and El Salvador's respect of the rule of law." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:51", "start": 530.71, "text": "Excellent. And I'm wondering if you have any comment on the supposedly violating term limits argument?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "08:57", "start": 536.83, "text": "Yeah, so I'm actually not what I, I would- I would con- consider a, a constitutional expert. there is a gentleman on Twitter, I think that we might actually both, follow. His name is Jaime Garcia, and he spoke with one of the original architects of the, the constitution, one of the guys that wrote it back, and, and was part of the, the process in the late '80s and, and early '90s, and he interviewed him specifically on this issue, and the architect basically laid out what the letter of the law means and it's designed to Terms, with no separation in between. And so in order to comply with the law, it's widely expected that President Bukele will resign his position, for some months prior to, running again for election." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:43", "start": 583.12, "text": "I see, understood. Yeah, a-and I think also people will be interested just to hear a little bit about the recent conference. So you and I, we were there recently for Adopting Bitcoin, so this is just recently, off the top of my head, around fifteenth of November. And so, yeah, let's talk a little bit about Like at the conference, and if you have any particular highlights." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "10:04", "start": 604.42, "text": "I think it was, a very optimistic feeling. I think that a lot of people came because they were truly convinced of the mission that we have here. and I think that's probably true for any conference that occurs in sort of the, the bottom of the bear market, right? whenever the price is really, really down, the folks that show up are the hardcore supporters, the people who understand the, the sort of the foundation, the fundamentals of the technology and know that It's going to succeed regardless of the current price movements. So in that regard, the conference had a very high, signal-to-noise ratio, if you will. And so my key takeaway was the number of people who showed up despite, the overwhelming circumstances from, from the, the perspective of the markets and just the challenges of traveling to a developing country, that, that, that they did show up and they did present really interesting ideas. There's more development going on in the space now. Now, than I think there ever has been, and it's really hard to keep up. I mean, we had seven different presentation areas, and they were just going back to back. So that gives you an idea of even in El Salvador, even in a place that's relatively difficult for, for people to get to, or it's not exactly on the way from, you know, point A to point B, they still showed up, and we still had that much activity and optimism, and, that, that's my takeaway. I was really impressed by that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:25", "start": 685.49, "text": "Yeah, and one other The focus was also about various Bitcoin communities, right? Because Bitcoin Beach obviously inspired all of these other projects, right? Like Bitcoin Lake and Bitcoin EKASI in South Africa, and I, I mean, I'll probably, I'll do it injustice by not even remembering all the different communities that are out there. And there was, someone from Bitcoin Island in the Philippines also. So I think that was definitely a focus that I noticed in this conference, is that, you know, obviously there are different conferences with a different focus, and, you know, they've, they've all got their place," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:00", "start": 719.65, "text": "Just the week before, and so that was also a fantastic experience, and it was an American Bitcoin scene, for obvious reasons, being based in, being, the conference being in LA. And so similar challenge as well, being bear market, first time or first time conference for Pacific Bitcoin, with Adopting Bitcoin, this was the second year. And, yeah, I think it was a great experience. I also wanna just highlight a little bit, one thing that was really cool is that they had really worked on the idea of having Lightning native, just on- Almost everywhere in and around the conference. So I'll just share a few examples from my side, and you can obviously add anything you, you wanna share also. but for example, you could get in touch with some, you know, bit driver contact, right? Taxi drivers on, online, who were willing to do the airport trip, airport to the hotel trip, and you can obviously pay them with Bitcoin into their Chivo wallet. We had various merchants there, so for example, some of them were being powered by the Bitcoin Beach wallet, and you could pay Lightning obviously. And then even That their entire POS system was being backed by eBEX Mercado's Lightning system, and then another system again is just, you know, people who were just using their own individual Moon wallet or Bitfinex Pay or whatever other setup that they had. And so whatever, you know, approach there was, people were, you know, there was this Lightning first feel to it all. So I thought that was really cool, and so, you know, just a really cool thing to see that it's really Lightning native. And so obviously I've got a few videos up there where I- I'll show a few examples just so people can get a sense of what it's like. But yeah, any, anything else you wanted to add from your side around the, the feel of the conference?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "13:38", "start": 818.34, "text": "Yeah, I, I would just say that it highlights the maturity of the Lightning Network and the capabilities. You know, obviously for, an entire year now we've been rolling out these capabilities within the, the country of El Salvador, and individuals have had the chance to, to really play with them. So for the, for the conference attendees, it was an opportunity to, to kind of have that To, to feel what it's like to be on the ground and, and making these kinds of transactions with this type of technology, and to see the, the different development in the space, right? There were so many different wallets on display and so many different approaches, that you really had a chance to, to understand that Bitcoin isn't just one thing, it isn't a centralized, situation, right? It's, it's obviously it's this big group of different people doing different things, and that kind of energy, I think, is something that everybody walked away with." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:28", "start": 868.17, "text": "Fantastic. So Yeah, I think the other point to add is that, you know, it's not all, roses, right? There are obviously challenges on the way, but to me, I got the sense that things were broadly improving over time, that more technology was there, there was more adoption in the ways that made it easy to use Bitcoin. Now, that's not to say that every single shop and every single restaurant in El Salvador accepts Bitcoin, that's not the case. You still have to sort of search for it a little bit in terms of which exact stores, but for example, I was able to go to Starbucks, and they've got an eBucks Payback set up. You know, I-- You know, they have McDonald's and Wendy's and some of these other big chains, that are using Bitcoin or Lightning. Of course, around Bitcoin Beach, many of the restaurants and hotels and vendors there, they take Lightning, and they are often using Bitcoin Beach wallet. so, you know, there are a few things where you have to maybe know who to ask or know where to go, but once you know those things, and if you're a Bitcoiner, For the most part, live on Bitcoin, like earn and spend and live on Bitcoin. is that-- I, I presume that's kind of mirrored in your experience living in El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "15:39", "start": 938.62, "text": "Absolutely, it's certainly the way that I live, and if I had the opportunity, I would try to reframe the question a little bit because many people ask about the adoption of, of Bitcoin in El Salvador, and I would, I would start by saying this. It's been famously stated that Bitcoin is for anyone, not for everyone, and I think that that is a deep and powerful statement and And we can understand adoption here through that lens in a more meaningful way, because a lot of critics will use just, the sheer number of merchants who accept Bitcoin as some sort of metric of success, but I think that's misleading. I would rather ask the question, \"Who is being prevented from accepting Bitcoin?\" Because in many countries, there are huge chunks of the economy and, and the, the business and the government environment where you can't transact in, in- Bitcoin either by default or by actual law, by actual decree, some, some entire countries, are, are like this. But in El Salvador, no one is prevented from using Bitcoin, and in fact, everybody's encouraged to use Bitcoin. And despite claims to the contrary, no one is being forced to use Bitcoin, right? So I personally believe that adoption and using something like this technology, it has to be a choice made by one's own volition. One's own will, you have to choose to, to embrace sovereignty for yourself. it can't be forced on you, right? So I'm actually really encouraged by the level of adoption because there are more people per capita here that have made that choice for sovereignty than any other country in the world by far, and that's only one year into, to our little, experiment, right? It's no longer a, an experiment, it's a real thing that everybody is, is living and, and, and breathing. And so all you have to do is just- Take your experience from, from the conference, over the last, week or so, and then extrapolate out, what looks-- what, what does it look like in two years? What does it look like in five years? And in ten years? And you can absolutely see that this country will earn the title Bitcoin country far more quickly than any other place that I'm aware of." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:49", "start": 1068.85, "text": "And I think that's a great point to make, and I also recall hearing a point from Mike Peterson of Bitcoin Beach, he was commenting that people have this crazy expectation that somehow it- Should have gone from zero to one hundred percent adoption overnight, and so they think that even twenty or twenty-five percent adoption is a failure, when in reality we know even today there are probably so-- there are so many people who don't even use credit cards, right? And so if the Fiat system can't get credit cards adopted in fifty years, how is it a fair expectation to say after one year that Bitcoin should be at a hundred percent? I mean, it's, you know, it comes to this question around false narratives or, let's say, double standards. They, they kind of, they expect more from Bitcoin than they do from a fiat system or from alternative systems." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "18:36", "start": 1116.1, "text": "Yeah, and I mean, just imagine the, the, the flip side of that, you know, question is, take, take a place that you can imagine that's very tech forward, like Silicon Valley or San Francisco or something like that, and give them a year to willfully adopt Bitcoin for themselves and then see, you know, to, to what extent it's adopted. it won't be twenty-five percent, I assure you. You could probably hold a gun to people And not get twenty five percent in places like that. a-and, you know, really what you can look at is, the major advances and, and advantages that they would have over a country like El Salvador to do it. So, you know, for anyone who looks at where we're at now and finds that disappointing in any way, I would just say that they, they, they have the wrong-- th-they're, they're looking at things the wrong way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:24", "start": 1163.53, "text": "Yeah. And I, I one other point I wanted to make just while we're here, I think listeners will be Project on called MiPrima Bitcoin. Now, I did an earlier episode about this, and that while a bunch of us were in town, they asked us to come and present, or not present, but to be there at their graduation. So this is a school, and these kids are young, and they're learning about Bitcoin, and we were being their, quote unquote, verifiers. And so basically, we would help them walk through setting up a Moon Wallet and also Blockstream Green. And so they would recover the coins using Blockstream Green and then send them into Moon Wallet. And That's part of their, I guess, graduation from their weeks of study. And so you can think, nowhere, yeah, nowhere else in the world are they literally trying to teach the high school kids. I mean, okay, maybe there are a few places in the world, but this is being done as an actual program, and the, the hope is that this get, then gets replicated out to other schools in the region." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "20:20", "start": 1219.75, "text": "Yeah, no, it, it certainly will be. I mean, the, the plans are in place and, and, you know, I don't know what anybody has been able" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:31", "start": 1230.72, "text": "Yep. So can you give us maybe a high level in terms of Bitcoiners moving to El Salvador, right? Can you tell us, if, if there are any interesting stories or interesting examples of Bitcoiners who have made that move, and what they're finding, you know, how they're finding it so far?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "20:49", "start": 1248.57, "text": "Yeah, I, I have to be a little cautious. Obviously, I'm, very respectful of the, the privacy of our clients, and so I won't use, examples that, that could be identifying. But what I would- What I will say is that the thing that surprised me is that we didn't get initially a lot of people who were-- and I, and I, and I want to even couch this term a little bit, that weren't necessarily tech savvy. Like, in, in other words, they weren't Bitcoiners from the sense of being software developers or, you know, being, contributors in the space. These were just normal people who felt like their freedoms were being infringed upon in the countries that they were coming from. They were-- they weren't necessarily going to- A place they were leaving from a place, and it just so happened that when they did their research, El Salvador seemed like a great place, and so they may have been exposed to Bitcoin, they may have understood Bitcoin on, on at, at very least a, a superficial level, but I wouldn't say that that was sort of a, a core aspect of what motivated them. They were really more interested in living in a place where they felt like they could achieve some sort of freedom and liberty. the Bitcoin piece was an enabling factor, it was a technology that made- made it possible for them to, for example, bring their wealth with them in a way that they, they didn't have to ask permission from, you know, the legacy financial system. So in that way, you know, Bitcoin was a, a, a tool that they were using, but their primary motivation is to come here and live as free people in an optimistic place where they feel like they can have a better future, for themselves and, and for their children. And so the people that have come here are just normal people with normal jobs, you know, we've got people who are Farmers, people who do, you know, testing for, for mold in the air, we've got people who have reached out for us, for, for just, you know, all sorts of random little things that you wouldn't expect, but the common thread is some level of appreciation for Bitcoin, but more a core appreciation for liberty." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:47", "start": 1366.93, "text": "That's really cool to hear, and I think because we can be insular in certain aspects of our community and think, \"Oh, yeah, only the people who are like really hardcore into Bitcoin, right?\" And of course, even from that community Dox individuals, but I picked up a sentiment that there were bitcoiners who were interested to move to El Salvador, and I can share some of that motivation. I, I don't think this, you know, these people will mind, but in, in one individual's case, again, I won't dox them, but they were feeling like they didn't wanna feel like a criminal for using Bitcoin. And so I think that's something where in other countries of the world, banks might shut you down, they might look at, \"Oh, hey, what was this transfer? Oh, that was Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:29", "start": 1409.3, "text": "In El Salvador, you really can use and live natively with Bitcoin, and so therefore you don't feel like a criminal, even if you don't-- you're not made to feel like a criminal, even if you actually weren't a criminal." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "23:40", "start": 1419.94, "text": "Right, and I think that that's something that's just in the zeitgeist now. I mean, you, you, you see, you know, Kanye West posting about being unable to access his money, and he's a multi-billionaire and, and talking about how, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody. And I think" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "23:59", "start": 1439.3, "text": "that they've been put in by the legacy financial system. And there's an old saying from someone, that you don't really fill your chains until you try to move, right? a-and so people now are starting to, to, ask the question, you know, what happens if I want to go to another country? What happens if I want to donate to these truckers? What happens if I want to, you know, exercise my own financial autonomy and decide what I do with my money? What happens? Well, they're running up against these sort of invisible walls Before, but have always been there, and now they're starting to ask the question, \"How do I get out of that situation? And where can I go where I don't feel trapped, in, in that way? \" And there's an obvious choice, and that's El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:42", "start": 1481.92, "text": "Excellent. So I think we've spoken a little bit about some of the feeling of what it's like in El Salvador. Maybe if you could, if we could zoom out a little bit or step back a little bit and think a bit high level, who does it make sense for? Like, who, who" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "24:59", "start": 1499.3, "text": "Because, i-if over the course of the last couple of years, if you have had any misgivings about the direction that our society is headed, whether that's because of the lockdowns, whether that's because of censorship, whether that's because of, you know, restrictions on, on how much you can use your electricity or your gas or, just the basic things that I guess we all took for granted, if you have felt any misgivings about that in the last couple of years, you at least owe it to yourself to explore what it looks like to have a second residency or an alternative location where you can go to if you don't feel safe, or free in the place where you, where you live. So having options is a big deal. I personally would love to sell everybody on the idea of El Salvador. I think that the more people that move here and, and help us, join our growing expat community is just gonna be better for everyone. But at the very least, think of an option, even if it's not this option. So if you're concerned about your liberty, if you're concerned about your freedom of In a place where you're locked down, where you thought you were free before, but you realized over the last couple of years that maybe that's not exactly true, then this is absolutely for you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:08", "start": 1568.38, "text": "Yeah, and I think a lot of Bitcoiners might do that calculation for themselves and say, \"Hey, you know what? This might be worth my while.\" Whether they are, let's say, they currently are in a regime with capital gains tax and they wanna move to El Salvador and be free of that, of course, there are-- It's, it's not as simple as that. You And to be honest, it's not for me in the short term, but I, I, I, I could sort of see a case where maybe in the medium or longer term, but I think for me, it might, it's maybe not the right, decision given my family and my situation, but I think for a lot of people, it could make sense. And so that's why I wanted to, you know, obviously chat with you and hear a little bit from you. So could you outline for us some of the, the pathways in at a high level? I know there are many" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:59", "start": 1619.46, "text": "So from the conference, he's got a great talk, so I'll, once, if that's up, I'll, I'll put the link to that. But if you could give us a high level understanding, what are some of the pathways in?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "27:09", "start": 1629.26, "text": "Sure. So what I tell people usually is set Bitcoin aside for the moment. If you were to think about moving to any other country, you would expect that they would have residency programs for a variety of different reasons, right? Like, people talk about having a student visa and going to the United States to go to college," }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "27:29", "start": 1649.34, "text": "Money back to their, their family somewhere else or, or so El Salvador has all of those different residency programs like every other country does as well. One of the more popular ones is our Independent Worker Visa, and that allows for people like digital nomads, folks who can do their work remotely, they can come and they can live here, full time, part time, virtually, they can work abroad, and when they do that, they don't have any taxation on their income, right? So you don't owe any taxes to- to El Salvador as a result of that. As long as your income comes from abroad, right? That's a really important point. So you can be a digital nomad, you can be a retiree. If you're from the US or from Canada, you're a little bit older, maybe you have a pension. If your pension is like a thousand US dollars a month, then you can qualify for a retiree visa in El Salvador. So you don't even have to have a really big pension, you just have to be able to, to support yourself on a very basic level and, and you can People come here for all sorts of reasons. People com- a lot of people come here as missionaries from a church. So, you know, you need forms from your church talking about what kind of good work you wanna do and how you're gonna support yourself, but that can be the justification for your, for your residency application as well. So there are a lot of different ways to approach the, the, the challenge. And then obviously, just last night, it was released that the, the proposed laws for the digital assets, the digital securities law in El Salvador, has been, Over to the, assembly. I haven't had a chance yet this morning, to review them. My attorneys are taking a look at that and we'll be creating a strategy around that, but essentially it's creating a, an additional residency option for people who want to invest in the volcano bonds, and our energy backed bonds. so that's just one more way that you can get residency and ultimately citizenship in El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:24", "start": 1764.37, "text": "Great. And so there's these different pathways. And what about the case as a business? So to set up a business?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "29:30", "start": 1770.04, "text": "Yeah. So you can set up a Salvadoran corporation. it's, it's basically like in the United States, you would call it a limited liability corporation, and there are variations of that, you know, in, in most, advanced countries. so we have that concept as well, and you can use that corporation, to work right now in El Salvador. You can also use it to transition into the Bitcoin City Special Economic Zone as soon as that's announced, and we have more details around that. Like I said, the bill was just submitted, but we- We expect that to pass by the end of the year, and so over the course of the next few weeks, we'll have more specific information. but a Salvadoran corporation allows you to have those same benefits and share the equity among other folks as well. And so if you're interested in toying with the idea of issuing equity on, on liquid, for example, if you wanna issue tokens that represent your equity and raise funds around the world frictionlessly, you have the opportunity to do that in a legal way here in El Salvador. Where you might not have that option in a lot of other countries." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:33", "start": 1832.96, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Blockstream Green is an industry leading Bitcoin and Liquid wallet. It has access to powerful features such as multi-signature security, you can set it up with your own full node, and you can use Tor support. Blockstream Green was even used in the recent Miprima Bitcoin series of education and testing for El Salvadoran students, and I was actually participating in that, and Blockstream Green was how they were recovering their Bitcoin wallets. So Blockstream Green is a really reliable reliable tool here, you can secure your wallet with the multi-signature shield where you can hold one key on your device and another on Blockstream's servers, and time locks or a third backup key ensure you always retain full ownership of your funds. Now, Blockstream Green also has integrations with hardware wallets such as Blockstream Jade, Ledger, and Trezor, so it is available for iOS, Android, or desktop. You can get it over at blockstream.com/green. 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And now back to the show with Jeremy. Excellent. And could you tell us a little bit, no, I don't know, maybe there's not a lot of detail on this yet, but in terms of the Bitcoin City registration or special zone, do you know if it's possible to apply into that case or is it more like you need to set something up and then transition into the Bitcoin City?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "32:35", "start": 1955.32, "text": "Yeah, so that's what I'm recommending right now. we have to realize that what we're talking about is building an entire city where there's nothing but jungle right now. It's not gonna be built overnight. there are need to happen first. For example, we have an airport that's under development right now in the eastern part of the country that's gonna serve as a, as a hub for Bitcoin City. We also have the Train of the Pacific that's being developed and it's gonna eventually connect Panama City all the way through into Chappus, Mexico. So it's going to, to, really bring the region together and connect all the capital cities. so those big projects, along with, development of the deep water port in La Union, those are sort of necessary prerequisites for For the city to, to truly be built. And so we have to think in terms of, you know, a, a longer time horizon. I expect that by the end of this next year, we will have, actual roads and infrastructure, being built out and, and probably the, the first foundations of buildings, but it may be twenty twenty-four and twenty twenty-five before some of those areas are, are livable and, and, where you can actually start to engage in your business sort of physically, but you can do so virtually right now, and that's usually I would recommend is be ahead of the curve, if you have the opportunity to come and see the location in person beforehand, that's probably a really great idea because there are a ton, there are a ton of great deals, lots of opportunity if you wanna sort of camp out and see what the actual parcels are, in between, for example, you know, in between the, the airport and Bitcoin City, there's just going to be a, a, a ton of opportunity to develop out commercial space. So come here, see it if you can, but if not, certainly reach out and you can start the ball rolling, virtually, at this point." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:22", "start": 2062.39, "text": "And in terms of tax rates, so I'm sure people out there are comparing tax rates around the world, and they may be thinking, okay, well, what's the rate in El Salvador? What's the rate in other jurisdictions? So I, I only had a quick look online, but it appears to me that the individual tax rate is thirty percent and the corporate rate is thirty percent. So how is that gonna work? And how does that, let's say, stack up and compare with, other options" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "34:49", "start": 2088.79, "text": "So that's absolutely true, but understand that that is related to income that is derived from inside the country. Because we have a territorial taxation system, income that you get from abroad has zero tax liability. So whether you're an individual or, or a corporate entity, you can continue to operate overseas without incurring tax liability. And then inside the country, we have a progressive taxation system for, individuals. It'll start at ten percent above a certain level and it'll slowly increase to thirty percent. But again, that's for income derived from El Salvadoran sources, and as long as you're not, pulling income from those sources, you don't have that tax liability. And then eventually in Bitcoin City, once you have the ability to legally domicile there, and we'll be one of the first to, to set that up, then you won't have to worry about those, those tax structures at all, because within the, the Special Economic Zone, no taxes on income, no taxes on, on property, that's nationwide, too, no taxes on payroll, so you'll be able Able to set up your company and hire workers not only in El Salvador, but around the world, and not have to incur, payroll taxes as a result of that, not have capital gains taxes, and that's not just on Bitcoin, that's on everything that you can invest in. And then there are also no estate taxes as well. So from a, a, a standpoint of planning for your generational wealth and, and, and being able to, to, to hand down your wealth, to, to your heirs, El Salvador is one of the best, best because of that aspect." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:20", "start": 2179.87, "text": "Yeah. with the territorial tax regime part, I think that part, again, I'm not an expert, but as I have read or understood in other regimes, it, it does focus on aspect-- well, again, it depends on what the law is, but from what I've heard in other regimes, it does matter where the work is being done. So in some cases, if it's territorial tax, but if you're working in that country, then the income-producing activity is being done in that country, and then therefore, in-- that income can be caught Let's say the tax net of that country. So I'm curious your thought on that, or d-- you do you know if that applies in El Salvador? Or like, so as an example, let's say you are doing, you are a freelancer doing some contracting work, and yes, your source of income is from outside the country, but if you are doing the work from inside the country, then does that create enough of a connection there such that your income is then taxed inside El Salvador?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "37:14", "start": 2233.94, "text": "Right. So the, right now the laws are dynamic, and, the bill has just been subm to the assembly, and there's going to be some debate around that, and we'll know a little bit more specifically what the plans are going down the road for Bitcoin City, as far as it relates to the country right now, there, there isn't that requirement. So you don't have-- the test that you're talking about is like sort of the official seat of management or the actual role of, the decision-making authority in how the income is derived, but that doesn't exist in El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:45", "start": 2264.79, "text": "okay, great. So, I mean, that's actually, so that's actually pretty cool. It's a no-brainer for" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "37:51", "start": 2271.15, "text": "here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:51", "start": 2271.49, "text": "Right. Okay. And so can you walk us through? I mean, obviously there are probably, I think as you outlined in your talk, like seventeen different ways you can do this, but could you just outline rough costs to do this, like maybe as an individual? And, yeah, let's start as an individual. What's kind of the rough cost and maybe the, what's the rough cost for a family?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "38:10", "start": 2290.22, "text": "Sure. So, i-i-it can be as cheap as you want it to be And he lives, he, he lived in a hammock on the volcano, you know, I mean, so you can come here and do this like real low rent if you want. And nobody bothered him, he had a great time. In fact, he, he eventually leveled up and he started, buying some of those masonry bricks and he built himself a little house to, to, to live in, which is, it's fantastic you get to see that. So you can come here on what I would call, you know," }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "38:46", "start": 2326.12, "text": "a very budget, a But then you can also, spend as much as you want as well, right? So, for Escape to El Salvador, we process individual residency applications for less than three thousand dollars, and for the average family, it's around four thousand dollars. And the rates change, because of the attorneys that we work with. Those are the, the main drivers of cost, and it's one of those basic approaches. Like most people will use an attorney, for example, if they, maybe if they get divorced or if they wanna, you know, Write up a business contract or whatever, and you can certainly go and find the least expensive attorney you can possibly find, but there are many reasons why you might not want to do that. if you think that hiring a professional is expensive, just wait until you hire an amateur." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:34", "start": 2374.35, "text": "Yeah, and I think that's a fair point also. But, yeah, just to give people a rough idea what, what are they up for if they want, you know, a quality professional to handle their work or to help them, at least, some of it, in some cases it might Right. So maybe there are cases where, look, you could actually go fill out the forms yourself and, you know, do, do it cost, cost that way, but the reality is, you know, people are scarce on time and expertise, and they would rather pay somebody to help them. So, and in terms of the setting up a business or a corporation, what kind of like rough cost ranges are we working with there?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "40:09", "start": 2409.19, "text": "So it's about the same. there are some additional requirements for El Salvador corporations that you might not expect from, from setting up a business in other, You have to maintain, a share capital, and that's gonna be dependent on the size of your business, but the minimum is currently two thousand US dollars, and that has to be set aside into a, either a bank account or it can be sitting in a UTXO, so you can do this in a completely Bitcoin fashion, but there are certain, reasons why you might not want to do that. The way that the law is currently worded, the UTXO itself becomes the sort of the security And you're not able to treat it like the value of, of the Bitcoin as it rises and falls, you might have to leave the, the, the UTXO alone. and so that might be great if you're planning long term, but there are reasons to hold it in, in, in a dollar-denominated account as well. So everybody is gonna have a slightly different approach to that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:08", "start": 2467.85, "text": "I see. What about setting up banking? Is that difficult? Like I've heard in different regimes around the world, banking can be difficult. I mean, and that's not just a Bitcoin thing, but I'm curious if you have any insight to share for listeners there on banking." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "41:23", "start": 2483.12, "text": "Well, look, banks suck all over the world. There's, there's no like holy land where banks work really well for people, right? and so I would just say that banks here are equally terrible as, as what you've experienced elsewhere. if you're looking to open a personal account, you have to be a resident, so you have to at least have your temporary residency, but the corporation that you create can be one hundred percent foreign owned. And it can have a bank account, so you can have exposure to the legacy financial system and still be completely remote." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:56", "start": 2516.15, "text": "Yeah. Okay. and so any thoughts on the timing? So the other aspect, you can hear is sometimes it can take a long time to set up your residency permit or your business. Can you give us a rough idea of how long it takes to do this process?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "42:10", "start": 2529.87, "text": "Yeah, that, that varies widely, but, but here are the major factors, right? So everybody needs to have a couple of basic documents in order to start. Their process. Let's talk about residency first, and then we'll talk about corporate formation. so from the residency perspective, as long as you have your passport and your passport has, enough validity remaining, then you're okay with that. And then adults are going to need a background check, and children are gonna need birth certificates. These must be issued very recently, they must be apostilled or authenticated, and that's a legal process that you have to go through with your country of origin, and that can take a long time, depending on your country. There are There are a lot of places that people are trying to hightail it out of right now because they just don't like the feeling of living there anymore. and so places like Canada, the RCMP background check process is backed up for months because so many people are, are requesting them and trying to get residency abroad. the same thing is happening in a lot of countries in, in Europe. Their, the clerks that work at their apostille office have never seen so many applications. and that's, you know, first hand reports that I'm hearing. So first, get the paperwork Then once we receive those pieces of paper, then within about two weeks, we can prepare your application to get it submitted to immigration, and then it takes a process of about forty-five days for immigration to review your file and, issue a finding in your case. So one of the things that's, good to know though is that as soon as you submit your application, you get an automatic ninety-day extension on your tourist visa, so you don't have to worry about, you know, running out of time or, or having to do a border run or anything like that. So So you could come here, get your ninety days, which most people get, and on day eighty nine, you submit that application and you get, a bump for another ninety days while they review it. And then once you get your card, you can come and go as you please, as a, as a resident for the length of time that that's been, established. Now on the, corporation, the formation of a, of a corporate entity, that process can take roughly the same amount of time, maybe a little bit longer. We typically" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "44:18", "start": 2658.18, "text": "Through, but one of the challenges that we have there is that we really need you to be in the country to at least make some signatures. So we can't completely do a remote setup of a corporation, there, there are some hoops that we have to jump through. But once we can start that process, you can then leave, and then, from that point on, the ownership of the corporation can be, completely foreign, and then you can use it for a variety of different things, down the road, and we're happy to chat about that as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:48", "start": 2688.16, "text": "El Salvador life or even San Salvador, right? So if you could just outline a little bit for people who aren't, who haven't been, what's it like living in, let's say San Salvador in terms of creature comforts that are available for them, amenities, things like this." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "45:01", "start": 2701.27, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I would say that this is a, a normal city. I mean, it, there are plenty of modern buildings. I happen to live in one. The infrastructure is, is decent. I mean, you would always like roads to be better, and people could say that, you know, roads in As well, so it's not necessarily a developing country phenomenon exclusively. And then, you know, there are a lot of things that, that people might not expect, like there are a lot of trendy restaurants and bars, that cater to, to folks from all over the world. There are restaurants from, from just about every country that you can think of. And one of the, the bad things that has a, a decent upside is, is traffic is terrible, right? The-- during the morning rush hour, during the afternoon rush hour, the city grew too quickly and it doesn't have the right For it, for its roads. But the flip side of that is that Ubers are extraordinarily cheap, and you can get to the other side of the city for three bucks, and that's true with all the different ridesharing apps. I just use, Uber as a sort of generic term. And we do know that traffic is an issue, and there are plans to build an elevated tram, so we'll have an L, just like, Chicago, hopefully over the course of the next, several years." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:12", "start": 2771.74, "text": "Awesome. And so in terms of Bitcoiner As I understand, there is a growing Bitcoiner expat group and there are meetups and things." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "46:23", "start": 2782.68, "text": "Yeah, I mean, obviously it depends on how we define Bitcoiner, right? But if we're talking about someone who is just generally aware and has used these transactions and has come here from abroad for at least a small reason, to, to do with Bitcoin, then I'd say that our expat community is about three thousand people right now, about two thousand in the city and about a thousand sort of on the coast, and we have meetups, basically every day of the goes on down at the beach because, you know, there's not a lot else to, to do down there, so people like to, to get together and, and, and talk about Bitcoin and, and share a beer and share their war stories. But here in the city, you have a lot of that as well, and there are a lot of different initiatives. up until recently, we've had the, Casa del Bitcoin, which was a, a PAXful initiative where they created a sort of free to use co-working space. We're gonna have other kinds of things like" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "47:18", "start": 2838.16, "text": "in the community, and you'll immediately feel how welcome and, and, welcoming and friendly they are. Everybody wants to convince you to, to live in El Salvador, they want you to join the cult, join our tribe, you know, and, and, and be part of this revolution, because it's gonna take a lot of people to effectively fight this battle and to, to make the reality happen in El Salvador that we wanna see happen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:42", "start": 2861.68, "text": "Yeah, that's great to hear. And there are Bitcoin communities around the world in, in most major cities, and so wherever you go Ideally, you can plug into that meetup scene and build, at least start, start making some friends that way. And I think, yeah." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "47:57", "start": 2876.79, "text": "I, I just wanna plug Orange Pill app, so guys download the Orange Pill app so you can connect with your bitcoiners as you go around, to all these cities. Okay, sorry. Go." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:05", "start": 2885.07, "text": "Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's cool. and so, yeah, I mean, you got meetup groups, there's Orange Pill app, there's, there's different ways to find a community, right? And And maybe you're a bit more of an introvert and maybe it's not so easy to make new friends, but I think that's one way that probably if you're listening to this podcast, then probably you-- there's a good chance you'll make some friends this way. So that's there. And, yeah, so in terms of spending Bitcoin, living the Bitcoin life, what's that been like for you in San Salvador?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "48:38", "start": 2918.47, "text": "Well, I've been really fortunate because I guess due to, to what I'm trying to accomplish here and sort of the, the, the role that I Who are still stacking. I'm at the stage of my life where I'm, not stacking anymore, and I need dollars occasionally in order to, to be able to live. And so there's a, a big community of folks that want KYC-free Bitcoin here, and so we kinda have this informal network that has developed. But even if you don't have access to that network right away, and if you want it, just, you know, ping me and, and we'll get you clued in. but you can still use Bitcoin here in a non-KYC way very You can go to the ATM and you can use it, if you can send a, a non-RBF transaction, you can pull that money out immediately, and you can go and, and, and enjoy not having to go through that whole process. but a lot of places do, as you had mentioned at the very beginning, accept Bitcoin directly. most of the telecom, companies, most of the, the, the restaurants, and for those random pieces of the puzzle that, are hard to sort of fit in, I have to give a plug" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "49:49", "start": 2988.82, "text": "really tracking down the different bills that you need to pay in order to, to be here and, and set up coupon arrangements with them. So it, it really takes, a, a mix of different approaches, but you can absolutely live, Bitcoin only. That's what I've been doing for the last year, and I haven't had, you know, many issues. There were, you know, at the very beginning, getting used to the Chivo ATM interface was a little bit different. I've had to go through the support a couple of times, but I've" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:20", "start": 3019.62, "text": "Yeah, and that has been one other criticism as well that I've heard is, is, around the Chivo application. Now, hopefully they can improve it, and it has improved over the last year, but there are still, I would say, some teething issues there. So for example, the Chivo phone wallet seems to work in terms of Lightning stuff mostly, but I've noticed the merchant terminal seems to default to on-chain, which is a bit of a, a, awkward and not a great, user experience, whereas obviously if you're using Bitcoin Beach wallet or the Backed setups or the open node setups or things like this, they are just a lot more lightning native and lightning savvy." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "50:56", "start": 3055.58, "text": "Well, and that's a, that's an account issue too, right? So let's take, for example, Superselektos. You, you go down to Superselektos and you wanna pay in Bitcoin. The, the, the process, the payment process right now looks like they have to minimize their, their application that they're running for the register. They have to open a web browser and they go to the web portal for, for Chivo, And they logged in, and it shows, you know, an on-chain default address, but it has the ability to switch over to Lightning. So it is a bit of a hassle to kind of walk the cashier through that, and it would, in a perfect world, they would know how to do all of this, but in an even more perfect world, they would have set up the default when they created the account in the right way. But, again, it's like you said, these are teething, issues, and as we get more and more, people coming" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "51:48", "start": 3108.18, "text": "Because again, you know, I, I go back to what I said at the, at the beginning, you know, Bitcoin isn't for, Bitcoin is for anyone, not for everyone. And so as long as no one is telling Super Selecto that they can't accept Bitcoin, I'm really happy with that arrangement, and I know that over time they will be convinced like the rest of us have been convinced." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:07", "start": 3126.67, "text": "Excellent. And so are there any thoughts that you could share in terms of- Staying in El Zonte or just visiting El Zonte?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "52:15", "start": 3135.23, "text": "I think it's great. You, you absolutely should go and see it. It's a beautiful beach. You can surf and you can, mix and, and match with other bitcoiners, and that's a wonderful thing to do, and there's some great restaurants down there as well. But that's a sort of a vacation spot. I, I do get a lot of people that are, that are coming and saying, \"Oh my gosh, I wanna buy an apartment or a little piece of land or whatever, should" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "52:42", "start": 3161.77, "text": "And there are many other places around the country where the demand isn't so high, and you can find exceptional deals." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:48", "start": 3167.93, "text": "Yeah, that's a fair point to make. And it's probably fair to say, so for people who've never been to El Salvador, right? So the main airport is San Salvador Airport or S A L as the airport code. That airport is about maybe forty-five minutes drive to San Salvador, and let's say from San Salvador to go to El Zonte, it's maybe one hour, let's say, something like that, just so people" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "53:07", "start": 3187.41, "text": "get a rough idea. Yeah, it's Into consideration is the elevation change, right? So, El Salvador really is a, a, a country of microclimates, and the higher you are, the cooler you are. So if you're down at the beach, you're gonna have a tropical environment. It's gonna be hot and muggy, and if you're cool with that, that's great. But think about it like going to Miami Beach, right? but if you go up the, the highlands into, for example, San Salvador, there are areas that are, that are so much higher that your ears" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "53:42", "start": 3221.71, "text": "Once you get up to that higher level, the winds are a little bit stronger, that's more fresh air that's coming in, and everything feels a lot cooler. So one of the misconceptions that I had moving to, to Central America was that, oh my gosh, I'm gonna go and live in the jungle. I can't imagine, you know, sweating it out, you know, but I'll, I'll, I will sweat it out for Bitcoin, so let me go. but when I got here, I was pleasantly surprised" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "54:07", "start": 3247.08, "text": "because, you know, I live Experiences in El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:13", "start": 3252.77, "text": "Right, and yeah, as we, we've been obviously focusing on the capital and El Zonte just for obvious reasons, right? The, it's a, you know, there's lots of other places that you could potentially go to. I think it's maybe just that if, if it's your first time going, then maybe you're, you're naturally going to focus more towards those areas, and so that's why I was asking around that. So are there any other tips you have for people? I, I can imagine people might want to do a scouting trip" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:42", "start": 3281.79, "text": "In, in fact, you know, for people who are curious, I would encourage them to g- just go and try it out, right? I think it's one of those things where there's a lot of media and there's a lot of noise out there, but really you've gotta just go and see it for yourself and trust your own eyes, trust your own experience, in terms of your visit to the country. And if you enjoyed it there, well, then okay, maybe that's an indicator that you, you know, it's something to proceed further with. So could you give, any things I should keep in mind?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "55:14", "start": 3313.53, "text": "Absolutely, take a tour. the tour is here to go to, a volcano or to go to, a sort of a downtown walking tour or to go to the Rutas de la Flores or, or, or whatever. These are beautiful areas to go and see, and the tours are super affordable. We're talking like twenty, thirty, forty bucks a person, right? So take the time, spend the money, do the tour, because you're gonna have someone who is bilingual and is going to walk you through They're gonna pick you up and they're gonna take you to where you need to go. And when you come here, I know that a lot of bitcoiners are sort of the do-it-yourselfer types, I certainly am, right? Like I'm, I'm a do-my-own-research kind of a guy, and that's fine, but understand that that can make life more difficult than it has to be sometimes. It's okay to break off a little change for someone to, to walk you around and show you what's going on and, and, and enjoy your vacation a little bit more Like, am I gonna get lost or who do I call if I have a problem? You want someone to, to be there with you. So that's my number one piece of advice. And then the other piece of advice is just walk. You don't really ever know a place until you walk around on the street level and, and see it, in a sort of slow fashion like that. If all you're gonna do is get behind, the wheel of an auto bill or in the passenger seat and drive around, you're never going to experience what it's like to be, I highly recommend that because San Salvador is, at least, is a city where it, it's, it's built for that. You have, you know, the little, the little ladies on the, the corner making their pupusas and, and, and you can, go and engage them in a conversation. But there are little, shops and tiendas all over the place, and there are people that-- that's what they do all day long, they have these conversations. And there's this vibrant community, that exists sort of below the radar that you would miss" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "57:12", "start": 3431.67, "text": "Or you have a, a guide, a, a, a linguist or some sort of a translator with you, then I would definitely recommend doing that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:18", "start": 3438.37, "text": "And that's, that actually brings up the other question I was going to ask, in terms of needing to know Spanish. So could you comment a bit on that? Like, how much can you get around just on English? I presume if you're just talking and hanging out in the Bitcoin or expat communities, that's gonna be mostly English, but if you really wanna get more involved in the country, you kind of will need to know Spanish" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "57:42", "start": 3461.73, "text": "Words, hello, goodbye, thank you, please, you know, like those are gonna go a long way. And if you have a translate app, it's great to use it, but before you go into a place, try to anticipate what the conversation is gonna look like, right? You know, if you are, if you know that you're about to go up and ask somebody to help you find something, you know, do a quick search of that and, and have that pulled up, because nobody likes to sit there while you're typing out, you know, a, a twenty word phrase that you You want anyway. So learn a few basic words, and that's gonna go a long way, especially please and thank you, I'm sorry, excuse me, you know, just the basic sort of, niceties of, of conversation, that's gonna get you a long way in the eyes of any local, and they're gonna be a lot more, helpful and responsive to you if you have that basic stuff. But I would say that it's not necessary to have any more than that, unless you really want to, to dig into the community. There are a lot of people There are a lot of different, there are a lot of people here from a lot of different countries, so it's starting to mix and mingle, and this is becoming more of a cosmopolitan city than, than you would have imagined. I can absolutely see the future where it becomes what President Becelai has said, where it's, you know, it's a Singapore of Central America. it's really going to have a lot of these different influences. So don't think that you have to be an expert speaker in, in Spanish in order to live here. It would certainly help" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:12", "start": 3551.65, "text": "Looking and comparing around the world, we are now starting to see lots of places around the world, maybe not lots, but some. Let's say there is Lugano in Switzerland, there is, you know, some of these other Bitcoin communities out there, there are other countries, potentially that people might be looking at. So in your mind, why should people be thinking specifically about El Salvador? I guess that's probably the, you know, the final, I guess, closing thought for people, like, why El Salvador?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "59:38", "start": 3578.19, "text": "We're the tip of the spear, we're We're setting some records here, we're, we're, writing history ourselves, and we're serving as an example for the world. And the eyes of the world are truly on us, right? If the Bitcoin experiment fails here, it's not going to hurt Bitcoin in the long term, obviously Bitcoin is bigger than that, but it can set back, development and, and adoption in other places if there's, you know, an example of, of a big failure like this. So it is important. We have established a beachhead here. And I want to see it be successful. And for what it's worth, it marries a lot of the concerns that a lot of Bitcoiners would have above and beyond Bitcoin, because this is truly a place where you can experience, freedom away from those, other worrying trends that are happening elsewhere. I mean, people not-- might not realize this, but the age of central bank digital currencies is upon us. It is happening, it's going to happen so fast, and there may be failures with how they roll out the system, there may be- The changes along the way, but the idea of your financial experience in most of these developed countries being tracked down to the m- Most minute details. Like that is going to be a reality sooner than later for, for most people. And if that bothers you, there's a place where that isn't happening, because we've chosen the freedom path, we've chosen the Bitcoin path, and that's El Salvador." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:05", "start": 3665.7, "text": "Fantastic. So Jeremy, where can listeners find you online?" }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "01:01:09", "start": 3669.38, "text": "Oh, I'm addicted, hopelessly to Twitter. So that's where you're gonna find me. But, in addition to that, you should check out the website. It's escape2elsalvador dot org." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:18", "start": 3678.97, "text": "Fantastic. Well, Jeremy, I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:22", "start": 3682.55, "text": "For listeners who haven't been to El Salvador, I'm sure many of them will really benefit from hearing your on-the-ground perspective instead of some corporate media, you know, garbage. So thank you for joining me, and, hope to chat again soon." }, { "speaker": "jeremy_of_escape_to_el_salvador", "time": "01:01:35", "start": 3695.26, "text": "I really appreciate the opportunity, and, anytime you wanna check back in and see how it's going down the road, I'm your guy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:41", "start": 3701.55, "text": "If you enjoyed the show, make sure to share it and get the show notes over at stephanelivera dot com slash four three four. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }