{ "episodeId": "SLP454", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "dante_cook_of_swan_business": { "name": "Dante Cook of Swan Business", "role": "guest", "tag": "DANTE" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.65, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics, brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Today my guest is Dante Cook. He's joining me to talk about a range of things related to athletes and Bitcoin, proof of work, as well as some fascinating stories about how shipping containers came about and the parallels with Bitcoin. We talk a little bit as well about the need for For entrepreneurs and the old system fighting the new. Now a message for the sponsors of the show. For those of you looking for hardware security devices, coinkite dot com is the place to go. They have a range of devices, most notably the Coldcard Mark IV, which is the latest version. It is a very versatile hardware signing device, previously known as a hardware wallet. You can use the Coldcard easily with software such as Specter Desktop or Sparrow or Electrum, and you can use it in various configurations. configurations, whether it is a single signature hardware wallet that you directly plug in, you can use it in airgap mode with a micro SD card, or you can use it as part of a multi-signature setup. So to get your cold cards, go to swanbitcoin.com and use the code livera for a discount. Swan Bitcoin makes it easy for you to learn about Bitcoin and also to buy Bitcoin. Swan has a range of resources such as the rabbit holes available over on swanbitcoincanon or the various books made available for free to swan customers with swan You can set up what's called an auto DCA plan, a plan where you regularly purchase Bitcoin and you deal with the volatility of Bitcoin by regularly accumulating some. Or on the other hand, if you just wanna purchase a, a flat amount, you can do what's called a smash buy or purchase a lump sum. Swan Bitcoin also has an application, so you can find this in the App Store for Google or Apple. Now, for those of you interested in getting ten dollars free of Bitcoin, go to swan dot com slash livera and you'll get ten dollars dropped into your account when you sign up and When it comes to Bitcoin transactions, I like to check mempool dot space before I send that transaction. It helps me target my fee. So mempool dot space shows you a fully fledged view of Bitcoin, whether that's Bitcoin's mempool, you can see the blockchain, you can see second layer networks like the Lightning Network. With mempool dot space, you don't even have to trust a third party, you can install and run it yourself. With mempool dot space, there are also enterprise plans where if you need a customized mempool instance with your company's branding You can have increased API limits and more, so go and sign up over at mempool dot space slash enterprise. And now onto the show with Dante. Dante, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "02:41", "start": 160.71, "text": "Hey, glad to be on here. I've been a long time listener of the show. this was one of the first podcasts that I think I was listening to when I got into Bitcoin, so it's, it's cool to finally be on here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:53", "start": 173.02, "text": "Hey, fantastic, man. you know, I see you're out there doing a lot of awesome work, and I know you have an interesting background as Interesting for some listeners. So, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about, a bit about your journey and, you know, the sports background?" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "03:07", "start": 186.78, "text": "Yeah, I, I think, you know, one of the cool things that I got to do sports was really just like my avenue to college. You know, I was a, you know, first generation college student. So both of my parents, actually went to the military. My mom, when she turned eighteen, my dad got a GED the day he turned seventeen and enlisted into the military. So I was actually born in Frankfurt And, you know, my parents came up in, in, in a lot more humble circumstances than I did, and, you know, just emphasized hard work, training, and athletics, and so I took a-- liking to sports like pretty early on in my life. Ended up playing Division one football at a small school called Wayman Mary. It's the dumbest guy there. It's the second oldest university in the world to Harvard. And I had a really good career at Wayman Mary, but when I was there, you know, it's a place where you're not just, Secondary at Wayman Marion, and so I met a lot of entrepreneurs and business guys, and so while I was there, one of the mentors that I had, said, \"Don't take anything that's not towards a major. Like, you're here on a scholarship.\" Like really maximize your time. And so I ended up being there every summer and winter, ended up with like a hundred and sixty credits, and got degrees in, marketing, finance, and process management and consulting while I was there. So that's kind of my background. Had dreams of playing football my entire life, my senior year, tore my ACL, MCL, meniscus, and had surgery. And so when I was starting my career, I got into tech and entrepreneurship, not because- That was something I was really seeking. there was a guy who ended up founding a company here in Indianapolis called ExactTarget, which went public and got acquired by Salesforce for two and a half billion dollars. And, I met him at an event that I was at randomly, and he said, \"Do you wanna work for me while you figure out what you wanna do with your life?\" And so I was on this sports path like my entire life since I was five years old. And then this guy who was a very successful entrepreneur, invited me in, and that's when I got to The previous decade before joining Swan, I've been on early stage venture-backed growth software companies, doing everything from sales and marketing to product Being employee two all the way up to, you know, Series C company, so, that was kind of my background and, but I'm, I'm a sports guy. I still coach football, I'm high school co-coach here in the city, and so that's a little bit about my story." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:37", "start": 337.0, "text": "Yeah, sure, man. And I know this is cer-certainly something that, you've been talking a lot about and taking a bit of more of a role there, let's say, in, encouraging, let's say, more people coming from an Right, because when I hear athletes talk about it, often they are very cognizant that they have a short window, they have a short window of a career, and you never know, right? Because you could be like that top level, you could be the Tom Brady, or you could just be some, you know, some guy who played in a pro level team for maybe a couple years and then you're out, and that's it, you're done, even a-after all this time you spent training to try to get to that very top level, right? And so I think for that" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "06:24", "start": 383.6, "text": "Yeah, that, it's so funny that you bring that up. That's like one of the, my big passions, a lot of projects that you'll see coming out here in twenty twenty-three that I'm behind and working on are centered around, you know, proof of work in Bitcoin, for athletes. Because when you think about it, I mean, it's so interesting in that whole FTX debacle when you look at the list of- Athletes who were duped, you know, Tom Brady and Steph Curry being the most prominent ones, those guys really understand the need to maximize your value and storing their energy, all of the work, all of the time and the effort that they put in to, again, maximize their value across time and space so that when they're done, right, they have value for their families, for other people, from when they're done. And it's so interesting that, that, the dynamics in sports right now are, you had- These top-down structures, ownership, management of a team, a college, a university, and the internet access to media, YouTube content, proliferation of content, it's flipping the power structure from the top-down owners to the athletes themselves. And what's interesting in, in the world of professional sports and athletics is that NFTs, crypto, Web3 has really been more successful and more prominent, but all of the athletes are actually wanting to- To have more indi-individualization, more freedom, more ownership, and so proof of stake actually doesn't work from an athlete's perspective, because when they think about it, they're saying, \"Hey, I'm risking my body, I'm putting my body on the line, you're getting paid, you're getting value from the time value, energy, sweat, the proof of work that I've put in, and you're reaping the rewards and the benefits from it.\" And so Bitcoin actually is really aligned from the network perspective, from the incentive perspective, of the necessary need to have energy as an input to extract value. And so athletes being able to put their time, energy, and work, their body, their blood, their sweat, and their tears into an asset class that allows them to have ownership of that, and then, like you said, maximize that window. I mean, the NFL particularly, it stands for not for long. Most people don't know this about, about the NFL, but when you get to four years, your second contract, they, they pay you pension, right? They pay you, you're, you're into their health plan, their benefits, a lot of the other things that are associated with that. And so a lot of guys get cut before their second contract. For financial reasons, for business reasons, and so you end up being a guy that's twenty-seven years old that doesn't have any work experience, you were probably making several hundred thousand dollars a year after taxes from Uncle Sam if you're not a high round draft pick. And so you don't have enough money, you don't have enough savings, and you don't have enough skills to really compete in this global information age where you've got people coming out of business school at eighteen getting in Internships and creating value in a workforce perspective. So there's a lot of athletes, right, out there that one, I think ideologically would l-aline with Bitcoin more than Web3 and crypto, but then also as a savings technology to allow them to store their proof of work across space and time when they're done playing football or any other sport." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:42", "start": 581.79, "text": "Of course. And I think we see these stories of superstar basketballers or superstar athletes who maybe they blow away their money. Because they don't, they've never had much training on personal finance. They haven't had that training on, okay, how do I actually save this money and not just blow it away? And, you know, maybe they have a, a person who is a family member who's their manager and then wait, blowing all the money or, you know, you hear these stories and I think bringing back this idea of responsibility and saving and diligent investing and trying to live within your means, I think that's like very alien to that kind of idea that you might see on, on the- The TV shows and the movies and the news of what's going on, in that whole world. So I think it's really interesting, and what we've seen as well is that, you know, you've got Bitcoin, which is, you know, the first, the only, and but then on the other hand, you see sometimes- People, you know, really getting into the whole NFTs and all this other stuff, and it's because, you know, I want something customized for themselves or whatever. Like, how would you explain that for somebody? Like, let's say if an athlete is coming to you and saying, \"Hey, Dante, what do I make? How do I make heads and tails of all this?\"" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "10:53", "start": 653.1, "text": "Yeah, well, I'll start from the bottom up because, the, the world is actually changing a lot in the world of athletics. I live here in Indianapolis. The NCA headquarters, the National, you know, Collegiate Association for Athletics, is actually headquartered here. And so when I, when people ask how much money does the NCA make, downtown there's like a river in front of the NCA, and right now in January, the water is blue, and I'm like, I don't know how you can make river water like be blue. All year round, right? Like these people have some money, some irrigation systems that the rest of the world don't have. But when you're thinking about NIL, right, name, image, and likeness, this is the idea that players can get paid for universities or- Athletic programs using their content and information. So here's an example, we have a really cool partnership at Swan Bitcoin with, an AAU program called Compton Magic. It was started by Ito Pudema, who started this program in the early nineteen nineties, at Compton High School as a way to keep kids off of the streets and out of trouble. Over time, they've just continued to build, continue to get better. I think over the last three years, they've produced, I think, four top ten draft picks, and so they're a program that's widely considered the number one AU team and program in the country. Now, one of the most interesting things about the AU The EU circuit is you have these shoe brands, you have Adidas, you've got Nike, you've got Under Armour, where they throw these big circuits and then they sponsor these teams in these communities, and they throw a ton of money at these, these kids. They give them a bunch of free shoes, a bunch of free swag, so that in hopes of when they become pros one day, they are an Adidas athlete, a Nike, a Nike athlete, an Under Armour athlete. So this idea, I, I'll tell you how I would explain it to a fourteen-year-old kid right now, because there's some players on Compton Magic's team, you know, one of them were, was at our Pacific Bitcoin conference. This kid is a freshman in high school. His dad was a former pro basketball player, and he's, I think, leading the nation in scoring. He's like thirteen or fourteen years old at the varsity level, like this kid, he can score from anywhere. Like, he walks in the gym, he's in range. And- And so what's interesting is somebody sent me an article the other day about this kid on the front page of the LA Times. Right? This isn't a small syndication, a small newspaper. Right? This kid's on the front page of a major news source who's monetizing his content. You go on YouTube right now and there's a bunch of people monetizing this kid who's fourteen years old, and there's already schools and universities and donors and other people vying for- Ways contributing to programs and all of these people to try to get this kit. He's fourteen years old. And so there's all of these systems that are trying to leech value from this kid, and he's been the one putting in work in the gym. And so one of the things that's interesting about Bitcoin and how I would teach this kid is it allows him to extract value right now for the value that he's creating in the world. You know, 'cause like you mentioned before, there's so many examples Of kids who were maybe great at fourteen, but never panned out. You know, one example is a guy named Greg Oden, and I remember back when I was in high school, he was the number one draft pick, he went to Ohio State. By the time he was sixteen, he was on the front page of Sports Illustrated, number one player in the world, projected to be the greatest center of all time. Greg Oden had a career of injuries, and he's actually an assistant basketball coach here at Butler University in Indianapolis. But Greg Oden's career earnings never panned out. But what if Greg Oden was able to not have any middlemen, not have any programs, not have any people leeching value from him, and he was able to start monetizing when he was most valuable? So Bitcoin through the Lightning Network, people can literally tip these kids while they're playing for the content and value they're creating, and that money goes right to their wallet. Now again, how do you teach about financial literacy? Long- Long time preference, storing your value in something that's gonna allow you to travel internationally. Some of these kids may not play in the NCAA today, some of these kids now are going overseas to play in China or to play in, Europe in the Euroleague, right? At sixteen years old instead of going to the NCAA. And so if they were a part of the existing system, one, they couldn't capture that value, and then they go overseas to go play for a pro team at sixteen And they can't actually even use the value that they've created without currency risk, risk, hedging risk, sanctions from different banks depending upon where they're playing. It's all of these things. So that's exactly how, I mean, there's similarities all the way up, but starting at the earliest level of high school and even collegiate athletes, that's how I think Bitcoin, is really valuable for them and allows them to start monetizing their proof of work without having any middlemen saying what they can and can't do." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:09", "start": 969.11, "text": "Yeah, and I think that's a great example where people can set up a Bitcoin wallet just on a phone, and you can have a Lightning address, and people can tip you. So, I- I know, from my chat with the guys over at Perth Heat, they're a baseball team doing Bitcoin, they're the Bitcoin baseball team, and they have literally got a setup where they have Lightning tipping. So you can tip that athlete right there on the screen, and you can scan and pay just like that. And they, they mentioned that some of their players are international guys, right? They're not all Australians, even though the team is an Australian-based team. So they're flying in and they're playing, and then, you know, they're somewhere else. And instead of having to do Just use Bitcoin, right? Like it's obvious, it's such an obvious and easy way to use it, right? You can use, whether you wanna have samurai wallet and have a paynim, whether you wanna have lightning address, whether you just wanna individually give Bitcoin addresses, it's a massive win for these people." }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "17:02", "start": 1022.35, "text": "Well, I love that. I mean, this, I like baseball in particular. Let's talk about that, 'cause that's a really international sport. So in baseball, one of the most fascinating things is that, you know, although we have, we're, we Majority of the top talented players come from other places in the world. And the funny thing about baseball is that these kids get paid peanuts until they get their first major league contract. They actually can be called up from the minors and still be making less than a hundred thousand dollars a year. But they're the number one team in the starting nine rotation of a major league baseball team. And what's massive, I think, is this opportunity that you have all of these kids from the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico or other places, you know, the Puerto Rico's the United States subsidiary, but the example being for them to send money back home to their families. While they're on these minor league contracts, or to be able to monetize in a way that represents their value as a star on these teams, even though they're still in their rookie deal. There's so many players that you're gonna watch in the NFL playoffs that are on right now, that are on rookie deals. They're making way less than some of the most mediocre guys on the team, but they're the biggest stars on the team. And so that's just like that interesting, ironic economy that the top down Still controls what these people are able to accrue in terms of value, even though, you know, a guy like Joe Burrow, still on a rookie contract, is one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Jamar Chase, still one of the best receivers in the NFL, but still on a contract that's not akin to him being one of the best receivers in the league." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:43", "start": 1123.37, "text": "Right. And so it seems that in order to really make the most out of these kinds of careers, you have to- You have to dodge the injuries, right? And, I mean, people get injured all the time, but I guess you have to dodge the serious injuries and then have a nice long career and make it to getting that long contract, and only then do you become, do you have a chance to really make that the really big money. And even then, you might have all these people leeching off you along the way. There may be some, you know, this, that, and the other person nickel-and-diming you on the way, and after taxes, after this and that, what are Haven't also been educating yourself financially, how do I financially maintain myself at rather than just blowing it all very quickly? It's a very, unfortunate circumstance for some, athletes, whereas others, you see, become very business savvy, right? Like, I know famously people like Shaq and others, they've, they've got all these business ventures and then they become very successful, not just as a sportsman, but actually as a businessman also." }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "19:46", "start": 1186.01, "text": "Yeah, I mean, the-- a great example, I keep coming back to Indianapolis. I love this city. There's a lot of stuff going here. But, one great example of that is a guy who, you know, was a great punter in the NFL, but actually had much more skill and ability as a media personality. So Pat McAfee with Barstool Sports, right? He, he had to- Leave the game, right, in such a way in order to truly monetize his value. and so his value on the team relative to the people he was playing with wasn't very high, but he had such a huge following in terms of social media, such a content, and what he was doing that he's created an, a media empire. And so how many of these guys are on teams that, you know, may not be the best player, but they're the funniest guy on the team? You know, John Dornbach, one of One of my favorite old school Eagles guys was a long snapper, but he's like a comedian and a magician. And so how can athletes begin to maximize and monetize their full skill set, even if they aren't the best player? If they are the best player, right, your proof of work should bear out to the value you receive, but What are other ways that you can start to leverage your platform as this professional athlete, while you're still playing and, and get earnings that aren't just, tied to the team?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:13", "start": 1273.4, "text": "Yeah. And so looking forward then, like, you know, obviously right now it seems like we're in a bit of a bear cycle and whatever, I'm not that worried, you know, give it some time, the cycle will turn, everyone, you know, people will be coming back, right? And so, do you have any thoughts on what people should be doing? Like, if, you know, if you were talking to an athlete now and they're thinking, \"Well, what should I be doing? Like, isn't Bitcoin really volatile? Like, how can I trust this thing that can" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "21:44", "start": 1304.16, "text": "So I, I thought about this pyramid the other day, Stefan, like our entire society, at, at least in the United States context, 'cause we have Social Security, which is part of this example, it actually tells you to invest in the things that you have the least ownership over, and then to the things that you have the most control over next, and that's to kinda keep the system going. So let me give you an example here. Every dollar out of my paycheck first goes to Social Security, which I have no control over, I have no access to Without penalty, without the government say so, and there's some, you know, nefarious group of people that are saying how much of this money I can actually take out, and use even though it's the first dollar coming out. Next thing that we tell people, all right, put money into, some sort of retirement vehicle, 401k, Roth IRA, traditional IRA. The most interesting thing about those, too, is that you have to be sixty-five years old or fifty-nine and a half years old. So I'm a thirty-year-old guy, you're telling me that I have to wait thirty years or else I get a ten percent, you know, penalty for early withdrawal plus whatever my current, taxable income rate is. So let's say a thirty, forty percent haircut in the thing that you're telling me to invest in next. Okay, the next thing that they tell people to invest in, which is coming out after those- Allocations is, an emergency fund. Well, the most interesting thing from this whole Celsius blowup was that they, they, they declared that the people's own, assets, their depositors, to a banking corporation, which means when you sign the assets over to the bank You don't actually own the cash in your Chase bank account. This is what people often don't realize. You're actually drawing from a loan at the bank, and it's their assets. You don't actually own it. So they tell me to invest in an emergency fund. So again, I don't have control over those assets. Then they tell me to invest in the real estate. I tell every real estate guy, they usually get upset with me, but let's say that you pay off your house and you have a hundred percent equity in it. Well, aren't you still paying, every month for mortgage insurance that you're required to have? Aren't you still paying property taxes that somehow keep going up every year? So the question is, do you actually own it if every year you're paying some sort of price or premium on This asset that you, I guess, quote-unquote, earn, own. And then they tell you to buy gold, and then they tell you to buy Bitcoin and those other things. When actually, when you look at that scale, those are the things that you can actually own and verify without anyone being in between. And so how I tell athletes and how I'm telling other people to think about this is, I'm just, I mean, take this as financial advice, if you will, if you want, I'm not a financial advisor, but I would think and consider strongly about investing your dollars into something that you can actually own first. And so as an athlete, that starts with your body, right? That, that starts with eating, that starts with nutrition, that starts with sleeping right way, that takes, you know, working out, getting a coach. Making sure that, you know, you can own this asset, your body, and maintain that asset for the longest that you can. Then it's thinking about, okay, let's say that my career is done tomorrow, what is an asset that you can actually own, verify, and take with you? And I would say that that asset is actually, is actually Bitcoin. And as an athlete, they have long time preference, right? They understand delayed gratification, not eating the cookie today to have the six pack tomorrow. Right? Not drinking on my off-season, you know, free time, you know, so that I can have a better season and be able to last through eighteen weeks in the NFL to the playoffs come January, right? It's that mindset, I think, once you talk to them through those different things, I think a light bulb really flick, flickers on for them. That allows them to see how they've actually been investing into things that they don't actually own or have control over, but, you know, everything that they've been doing from an athletic perspective, it's been telling them to take a long time, long-term time preference, delay gratification, and invest in the thing that you actually own first." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:09", "start": 1569.28, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a great answer because you really have to think about what are the alternatives for people, right? The alternative for most people is they are being told, \"Oh, okay, put your money into...\" Into the financial, fiat financial system and just trust the system, and just trust, trust the banks when they haven't really proven themselves worthy of that trust or even Celsius and all this other stuff, right? They'll say, \"Oh, high interest savings, right? That's this idea is high interest savings accounts,\" and that's, that's precisely what drew a lot of people into the likes of Celsius and FTX and BlockFi and all of these other, you know, Ponzi scam things that have blown up. And, you know, and then yes, Bitcoin is volatile, but I think you really do have to take that, as we say, it's a long time horizon or a low time preference, right? It's this idea as opposed to being impatient. so, yeah, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about, any other ideas you have around, you know, what, what kinds of things could athletes be doing potentially at the college or high school level to prepare themselves? I'm, I know this is something you're obviously very passionate about, and, I'm sure there are other ideas out there that they could be exploring." }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "27:16", "start": 1636.13, "text": "Yeah, I would say start to think about themselves as a corporation or a brand, you know, long before they think it's, you know, necessary. It's like an umbrella, it's better to, you know, have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And so, you know, usually when they get to the point of- Monetizing, you know, over twenty-two years of their hard work when Roger Goodell goes, you know, with the thirteenth pick in the first round of the NFL draft, the so-and-so team selects this player, well, then you have all of these people I would say inserting their ideas of what your corporation should look like, of what your brand should look like, of what affinity groups you should be excited about. When really, if you take the time to start to think about those things early on, hey, what are the initiatives that I really care about? You know, you know, in my own neighborhood, in my own community center, like this high school has meant so much to me, you know, and really fueled my growth as a person, as an athlete. You know, as soon as I get out, right? I'm gonna have Three percent of my savings or earnings that I, that I put away go directly towards this school. Right? And so it's starting to think about, what are those things that I care about? What are those things that I'm passionate about? If every day that you're using, you know, optimum nutrition, you know, whey protein, well, start to reach out to somebody on their brand team to say, hey, I'm nobody yet, you don't know me, but I use your protein every day, and it's really helped me in my career to become the The best athlete that I can be. And so as this proliferation begins to happen, as brands begin to start to work with the individuals more, the people that have more thought into their own self-sovereignty, into thinking about themselves as a business Will not be sort of controlled or boxed in by their team, by the institution that, you know, quote unquote, supports them, and they can start to think of themselves as an owner first. And so that's what I would start to tell like people that are at a serious level, like I'm not saying this to like high school kids, go have fun, like go enjoy time with your friends. Like the best thing about athletics, you talk about proof of work, the reasons why people on your football team or basketball team or some of your best friends and those memories stick with you for the, for your lifetime, it's because you guys did something hard together. And like doing hard things with a group of people forges bonds and relationships and communities in ways that- That other things don't, right? And so that's what I would say, like if you're in high school, if you're, you know, going into college, right? Have fun, play the sport for the love of the game. But if you have those aspirations of going to the next level, treat yourself like a job, treat yourself like a business, start to think of your brand in ways that are holistic, and start to develop a social media profile, start to develop a brand, start to develop and promote those passions and things that you're passionate about long- Before you get to that big contract, because then that puts you in the driver's seat from when those things do come. That's kind of my, my advice there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:32", "start": 1832.29, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Unchained Capital can help you go to multi-signature. This is an advanced security technique that you can use to remove single points of failure. A lot of people are comfortable with single signature or maybe single signature plus a passphrase, but they're unaware about some of the risks that multi-signature can actually protect you against. So for example, multi-signature can help defend Defend you against things like a chosen nonce attack, or it can help defend you against the five dollar wrench attack. With Unchained Capital, it's easy to sign up, they've got a concierge onboarding program that you can purchase, they will ship you the hardware if you need it, they'll do a call with you and teach you how to use the Vault product that they have. Go to Unchained dot com slash concierge to sign up there. And finally, Build on L2, this is a community for Bitcoin builders by Blockstream. So if you are a builder in this space" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:23", "start": 1883.23, "text": "You want to be able to come together with events, you want mentorship, or you want a community to learn something alongside other Bitcoiners building the future of Bitcoin Layer 2. This is especially important if you are interested on building on- Core Lightning or the Liquid Network, so this initiative is launching soon. Sign up now for early access, it's over at build on l2 dot com. And now back to the show. Yeah, I think that's a great way to think about it, because really the world is flipping, and as you said, it used to be very controlled at a very top-down level, but now it really is more about those individuals, because that individual with their own brand, they're now the ones who are getting endorsement deals and so on and all this other stuff. And so, yeah, I, I think there athletes and what they can do with Bitcoin and taking control for themselves, and of course, in Bitcoin, not your keys, not your coins, this is something, you know, we repeat, we sing it till the cows go home, till the cows come home, you know, that's, that's what we say. I also wanted to ask you about this article you wrote recently. Now, so listeners, if you're not already a Swan Private member, this is part of Swan Private Insights, so this goes out to our Swan Private customers. but Dante, you wrote a fantastic piece. Of money. So do you wanna just tell me a little bit about this piece? And firstly, what inspired you to write this one?" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "32:44", "start": 1964.31, "text": "Yeah, this is, the second piece of content that I've gotten to write for Swan Private Members in our Swan Private Insight, which is, like a monthly macro, sixty to eighty page, professionally done, literally some of the best content like out there. I think I was sandwiched in between Tomer, Sam Callahan, and like Lynn Alden this, this time. So it's like, I'm, it's like every- The giants in the game, and then there's like Dante Cook in there, so I was really grateful to be in there. But this article, one of the things that I, I've, I've loved doing in my time is looking back at history to see if there are like analogies that allow us to think about uncertainty as it relates to Bitcoin's future. So that, you know, in my first article, I, I used the analogy of Visa Which was actually started as a nonprofit consortium to allow different corporations to, you know, transact and build the first kind of peer-to-peer value exchange system in the world. So that's what Visa, what happened to Visa, what happened at with Visa is at the very beginning they were their rules allowed for, members who drove the most payment value to have more ownership share and votes into how the network worked. And so pretty e-pretty quickly after this decentralized network, which was fascinating and allowing people to transact across the globe, you had a few players, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America, that ended up having all the voting shares In this, you know, used to be nonprofit corporation. And so that's proof of stake for you right there of why didn't Visa, why, why didn't Visa become Bitcoin? Well, actually, Visa had a lot of the makings To become Bitcoin, except for the proof of stake slipped into it. And so one of these innovations that I look back on and I said, \"Wow, this has a lot of analogies for Bitcoin,\" was the box, the shipping container. And there was a guy named, Malcolm Mclean, if you've ever seen like Mclean trucking or a Mclean truck in the United States, it was a guy who was born in rural, middle of nowhere, small town, North Carolina, that actually built a business, a trucking business, and one of the things that he noticed was, hey, when the highways were getting congested, their trucks would just be sitting idle on the highway if they were taking a shipment from North Carolina. California to New York. And he said, \"Well, like, I'm sitting here next to a port, what if I could just unload this box off of my truck, put it on a boat, and have the boat drive around right around all the traffic to New York City, and then we just have another truck pick that up and deliver the goods.\" But this idea didn't come without resistance. It didn't come without the existing transportation and railroad and pol- political apparatus trying to shut it down, but it was just this inanimate object that allowed you to transport value and materials from one place to another in an open shared network that anybody can plug into and use. And so the story about- Malcolm Mclean and the shipping container literally transforming the world is a story about how the existing power structures will try to attack Bitcoin, how existing, monopolies, will not see the value of the shipping container and will continue to invest into warehouses and old technology and, you know, putting barriers around their current profit centers, to block it. Adoption, and it's also a story about the network effects that happen as more trucks began to build the, the right apparatuses to take these containers, as more ships began to build their infrastructure to allow them to have these shipping containers around there, there were network effects that drove the cost down to shipping materials all around the world for, you know, a shoemaker in Kansas to, you know, send a pair of shoes to China and vice versa, and then last- Lastly, the thing that I think is most important, the shipping container didn't actually take off until there was a crisis. So the Vietnam War, we were sending so many goods and materials and soldiers to Vietnam, and their bays, their ports couldn't handle it. We had no way of tracking the goods and materials in there, so there was a lot of inventory being lost. Soldiers actually weren't getting rations, and so when this guy, Malcolm McLean An entrepreneur who said, \"Hey, we've got a better way,\" said, \"Hey, let's use shipping containers,\" and then they cut their cost by a factor of ten x, right? They cut their cost by a factor of ninety percent, and then they turned the war around literally from shipping containers, did they go, \"Oh, this inanimate object that doesn't have any political will or motivation that, you know, is just a way for us to transport goods more effectively across the world, how about we use it instead of...\" We're trying to ban it and allow its innovation to spread throughout our economy. So that's like the story in a nutshell, and I thought it was very fascinating as it relates to Bitcoin, because people place so many things onto Bitcoin, but it's an inanimate object that allows you to transport value from one point to another across the world in an open standard that everyone can use." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:30", "start": 2309.77, "text": "It's a fantastic analogy and a fantastic story. It's easy for us in twenty twenty-three to trivialize these things and say, \"Oh, yeah, it's international shipping. I just press a button and it comes the next day. Well, no, there's a complicated, you know, and if you have to think back to the 1950s, this is in the 1950s when this was happening, and there are so many parallels and useful lessons for all of us because- A-as you rightly point out in the piece, the first lesson is that it's not just about that innovation, but it's actually having entrepreneurs who put that innovation to practical use, right? So It, you know, it's one thing to have an invention, and I think what people can do is get overly excited about just having that innovation, but it's also about making it practical, making it reliable, and making it commercialized. Being able to commercialize these things is what makes it useful for us, isn't it?" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "39:25", "start": 2364.98, "text": "Well, yeah, I mean, you've, you've been hammering, on this a lot. You're one of the big, proponents of not just hodling Bitcoin, but how do we spend it? How do we use it in practical ways to Economy. And, and so that's, that's the biggest thing is that there have been innovations often start in like a patent office, but there's some entrepreneur somewhere that takes that patent, that takes that idea, they're able to, with, without permission most of the time. this is one of the most interesting thing when it comes to electricity, the electrification of the American, you know, grid and all of these sorts of things, everyone thinks that these were this, these- These things that were already there. And there were people that had to create products, they had to work with regulators, they had to get other vendors to start accepting it, to start using it, they had to change payment standards, and a lot of times they had to go forward without permission. And I think that's what Bitcoin, you know, businesses and, and, and Bitcoiners need to start doing, you know? Helping a small business to set up BTC Pay server on their website or to use Cash App, as their point of sale versus some other random point of sale like, Toast or some other thing because we know that Cash App has Lightning built in, and it's literally a matter of time before they flip the switch and every person with a Cash App mobile app is gonna be able to pay any business With a cash at point of sale terminal via Lightning. And so what does that do for a business? Right? That's a practical solution for a business that allows them to become three percent more profitable overnight. It allows them to, not live in this, accounts payable, accounts receivable world, in that you're literally streaming money. The example of like, how do we make this practical? I'll go into that restaurant example. If they're using Lightning versus their traditional card networks, I walk into a coffee shop and the coffee The beans to make the coffee that I'm having today were purchased thirty days ago. Also, the waiter, waiters or baristas and, baristas that are working that day are being paid out those days in tips and fees for when they leave that, that day of working at the coffee shop. But when I swipe my card for that coffee, that money, if it's on credit, it's not coming in for thirty days. If it's on debit, it's not actually hitting their bank account for another three to five days. So- So what if there was a world where literally you had access to real time liquidity and the, the items and goods that you're paying for and/or receiving, you're being compensated for them at that time? And if a barista works for four hours that day, what if you paid them for four hours of their time that day for the time that they worked? How will that transform your business? How will that move businesses off of the standard two weeks pay-payroll cycle? Or every month payroll cycle, or Walmart or the large vendors being able to squeeze their vendors to make them send them goods, but they don't actually pay for the invoice until sixty, ninety, a hundred, twenty days later. I think these sorts of practical things around like the Lightning Network and how they'll, how they'll be used in business are gonna transform the world, and it's not gonna be that you're a Bitcoiner or not. The coffee shop guy's like, \"I'm gonna be three percent more profitable, and I'm actually gonna be able to turn over goods and pay my staff in a Do with caring about Bitcoin, it's capitalism, you know?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:58", "start": 2578.39, "text": "Yeah, it's just making more money, and I think there's even an element of convenience, right? There are times where, personally for me, like as you were saying, I try to, I try to earn Bitcoin and spend Bitcoin. I'm not a hundred percent, like, I'm not perfect, but where possible, I'll try to earn and spend with Bitcoin. And so there are literally times where I've found it more convenient to just pull out my Lightning wallet and pay like that. So there may be even an opportunity for increases Invoice, and especially anybody who's ever done international wires. You know, pretty much anyone who's ever done an international wire, I bet you there's been a high chance you had an issue with one of your wires, that they were saying, \"Oh no, you got the name wrong,\" \"Oh no, the wire got rejected,\" \"Oh no, this, that.\" Whereas with Bitcoin, it's literally just scan and pay, and it's done. And so, you know, there's a massive opportunity there, and so I think the lesson really is that we have to push the boundaries sometimes, and It's tech, it's legal, it's social. There's some element of pushing the boundaries here, and so I think as Bitcoiners, there's a lesson for us in that too, that we have to try and push the boundaries. You know, we're not gonna be perfect, but we should try. And, you know, I think that's probably a, a, an interesting thing, because there will be interests who are going counter to this. And as you said in the, you know, in the story with the shipping containers, there were unions, there were railroad titans, But it's the job of the entrepreneurs and the bitcoiners, in this case, to push forward anyway." }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "44:31", "start": 2671.09, "text": "Yeah, I mean, going back to that story, Malcolm Mclean, his idea, and it, it was costly. This was the most fascinating part about the story. He'd spent thirty years building this shipping empire from literally nothing, or a trucking empire from literally nothing, and, and, in order to make this, in order to make this shipping container idea a reality, he had to- To sell his entire company and buy a shipping company. So what he did is he said, \"Well, hey, if I'm gonna run into all of these blockers, you know, the International Trucking, you know, Trade Commission, I think I have it in the article, whatever the name of that body was, said that trucks weren't allowed to have any say or input in shipping rates, right? Those are rates that they set. So he said, \"Well, the only way that I'm gonna be able to change this, I have relationships with trucks, I have relationships with truckers. How shipping company, a shipping operation, and outfit that to take these containers. And then he had the, he had to find out a way to make these containers. So he literally went to the number one container guy in the world and, you know, said, \"Can you make me a prototype of this? Can you build this for me?\" And then he had to go to the, the New York Port Authority and to their analysts and say, \"Hey, can you run a simulation or an analysis of the costs for me to ship a...\" a car, a cargo load of beer from here to Miami in this ship versus this other ship. And so then when he went through that, he had to come back with the data, and then he said, \"Okay, this works, this is, this costs literally ninety percent less.\" Okay, well then now I've got to go get these containers mass-produced. Can you go do that for me? And then he had to figure out how to optimize, how to have more containers on the ships. So it was just this evolution of this process of him running into one blocker after another And having to innovate, innovate in ways that the existing system didn't allow for. And so right now in Bitcoin, there's all of these sorts of many innovations that are happening. Every time we hit a roadblock, the community is allowed to vote and bring the best ideas to life, whether that be Taproot, whether that be things like, I mean, you talk about payments right now, Bolt eleven invoices versus Bolt twelve invoices, when you talk about this idea of custody in- And having community ownership within an asset, you have Fedimint, and all of these little things. Every time we run into a blocker, the Bitcoin community is building in some sort of innovation to allow us to scale past it. And so that, that's one thing that I think is a benefit to the Bitcoin community versus some of these other innovations, which is gonna allow for adoption even more quickly, is that we have hundreds and thousands of people, paid and unpaid, innovating on an open source protocol. Which is going to allow us to move past these roadblocks in a, in a quicker fashion." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:31", "start": 2850.97, "text": "And I think that's something when people are newer to Bitcoin, they don't, they don't appreciate that, that there's this open source ethos and that there's all of these software, all these different projects, whether software, hardware, business, and they're interacting together in a way where they are multiplying the possibilities of what's, you know, available and what can be done. And so I think that just makes me really bullish on what's happening. And I think to your, to the other point you were making as well about sometimes innovation is being birthed when the circumstances force it. I wonder, in Bitcoin, could that be central bank digital currencies? Could it be that, let's say, maybe not, maybe not right now, but maybe in a year or two, let's say in central bank digital currency land, they start implementing this in more countries around the world. I know in Nigeria, they're trying really hard right now, the government is trying at least, that maybe that's what pushes a lot more people into Bitcoin, right? Like, that Sick and tired of the control, the inflation, they're sick and tired of the surveillance, and they-- maybe that's what actually pushes them to actually use Bitcoin, right? And I think the other really important point I wanna just call out as well and highlight is the point you were making that he had to imagine this system of things because it, it w-- it didn't exist yet, right? It's easy to look back now, but at the time, you might have to realize, \"Oh, okay, how-- okay, well maybe the ships today aren't built...\" For that, or maybe the trucks today can't take this size, and how do I make it all work? And I think it's a similar thing with Bitcoin that there's all these different pieces that have to work together to make it work. So I guess I'm curious if you have any other ideas or do you have any speculation, if any, on what some of the impetus might be for people to really, drive towards and use Bitcoin more?" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "49:18", "start": 2958.0, "text": "Well, I mean, necessity is the mother of invention, right? People, people don't innovate unless they need to. we're just Naturally resistant to change, and, you know, confirmation bias allows us to really buy into this idea that the things that are today or the things that like affirm my beliefs are correct, and something different is wrong. So there's all these pressures that we have just as humans and just, you know, around us that really don't allow us to see the obvious thing until we need to. And so I, I don't put this on people in like a bad way, I do believe you said If there's like a, you know, if I have a prediction, people, CBDCs in one way or another will be a driver for Bitcoin innovation and adoption. And so it literally takes one time for- Somebody who maybe wants to go, purchase something from the grocery store, but they drive a Ford one F fifty or Ford F one fifty, and so their carbon footprint score is too high, and they can't buy a basic good or material for their loved ones or for someone at home, that a revolution happens. And the, the beautiful thing that I just love about Bitcoin is that you don't need to resort to physical violence in order for this revolution to- take place. Simply remove your dollars or your assets from the existing system and put them into this alternative system. Now, some of the things playing out geopolitically right now with China, with Russia, with Saudi Arabia Looking at potentially receiving, payment for oil in something other than US dollars, the game theory in Bitcoin, I believe, is going to force these nation states, these G7 sovereign, you know, countries or politically important countries, to adopt Bitcoin if one of the other ones does it first. And so I believe that there's like a perfect backdrop right now and a perfect opportunity for the United States in particular to see Bitcoin as An innovation that's going to allow us to continue this global world hegemony versus regulating it to the point of crippling it, and the network will not die, it will just go to another place. it will just move to another part of the world, to another country, to BRICS, you know, that they're gonna start receiving payment for their commodities, for their goods in Bitcoin, and that's gonna be the point where we're forced to do it. And so, I, I, I really- I really, I really hope that these bills, like there was a US Senate bill that I think was just passed yesterday, or a proposal for the United States Congress to accept Bitcoin At all of their like locations. So like at their, you know, and, and I- Alright, but" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:15", "start": 3134.7, "text": "this might be one of those bills that, you know, it's not gonna get passed, right? But they kinda put it for the sake of, you know-" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "52:19", "start": 3139.46, "text": "They put it out there, but, you know, and it's gonna get shut down. It's gonna get shut down. But when half of your voting power in a certain district or place says that we want Bitcoin, well, then they're gonna be forced to learn about it. That's the invention is the mother of necessity moment And for United States leaders and bureaucrats is when the people that they are relying on, for their votes or for them being in power in place in the first place, demanding this thing that is, that is just, it's just better for people as a long-term savings technology as it moves from store of value to medium of exchange, it's going to be better over time. And right now it is volatile, but there is an aspect of our hundred trillion dollar financial system that isn't working for people And it's creating disparity between the haves and have-nots, and Bitcoin does le-level that playing field." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:15", "start": 3194.74, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's what we see in the modern day political world with large states like the US government, you do see this very concentrated benefits, dispersed costs aspect. But I think this is where Bitcoiners can turn it to their side, right? This idea of, hey, if we build our adoption enough, we build up our own group of advocates, we can actually run this race, and that's this whole- whole idea, right? This whole idea that Cory talks about with, you know, running the race to prevent the war, I think there really is that possibility. Of course, while the whole thing is going on all around the world, it's not just in, in America, but wherever we can grow the adoption and get more people on board and fighting as part of this, you know, intellectual and, you know, this movement, let's say, as part of this movement, I think that is really where the difference is gonna be made in terms of winning the race. And I, Is, obviously you're deeply involved with helping businesses who wanna onboard, whether that's hodling or they wanna have, a Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin benefit plan for the employees. So can you tell us a little bit about that? What's it been like for you trying to orange peel some businesses?" }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "54:25", "start": 3265.26, "text": "Yeah, so, beyond sports, beyond, you know, these conversations that we've been having about, you know, personal ideas and topics, I, I run, Swan's business unit or business group, where we have, you know, the platform in the Partners to help businesses transition to a Bitcoin standard. And so right now, you know, we have this broad mix of businesses that are in information services, to HVAC companies, to plumbers, to electricians, to marketing consultants, to, you know, private equity groups or financial advisors that are using Swan's platform to, hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet. One as, a hedge against, you know, dollar devaluation, i-in many cases, a-and also as a mechanism to, reward, retain and attract talent or employees through gifting them Bitcoin. And the, the process so far, it's very interesting. The conversation with a Bitcoiner, who's running a business is very simple. They are, able to- To, I think accurately articulate why business has been harder for them the past five or six years. And so the conversation is very easy about, \"Well, tell me about your treasury, tell me about your cash reserves.\" If a company was to come, assess the value of your company and you have, fifty thousand dollars in a cash reserve Would your company be worth more or worth less than if twenty-five thousand of that were in Bitcoin and the other twenty-five thousand dollars were in cash? Because if I'm an acquirer The fifty thousand dollars in cash doesn't buy me much of working capital to when I acquire your business or add much value to your company, especially with debt being relatively cheap still. But having twenty-five thousand dollars of upside call optionality with Bitcoin on your balance sheet Makes your accounting firm a little bit more, I think, valuable potentially than just having all cash. And so that conversation there is like, it's relatively simple with Bitcoiners who are at the helm. As I'm having these conversations one or two layers out, all of these business owners, regardless of whether they're Bitcoiners or not, can sense that there is something wrong. Now, they may have different things that they attribute to why. I think we have a pretty clear story about the devaluation. Inflation of the dollar itself and the manipulation of the current financial system that I think points to why they're unable to retain employees, because when the next employer's able to offer them nineteen dollars an hour versus seventeen dollars an hour, they're gonna go, because everything about their life, their, that employee, is becoming more expensive, right? And so when they're like, \"Well, I don't know why I can't retain employees,\" \"Well, I don't know why, you know, my cash reserves aren't going as far,\" or \"I don't know why, you know, my working Every year for the last seven years, they're, they're starting to, at a macro level, understand that there's a problem. Now it's the educational piece of, \"Well, how can Bitcoin help you solve?\" Not all of your problems, but let's try to solve one of these problems. Let's start to help you to create a strategy or a plan where you're investing five percent of your profits into Bitcoin as, you know, an upside call option, if it goes up, and if not, that five percent of cash is literally being eaten away by inflation every single year. So it's, it's starting to have those conversations and trying to pick and choose where Bitcoin can potentially be a solution for a business owner. but with Bitcoiners, if you are a Bitcoiner, that conversation is just really easy and, and the growth and adoption in that minority group of just Bitcoiners is growing significantly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:20", "start": 3500.22, "text": "Right. And I can imagine if you are an entrepreneur, let's say you have staff and you wanna help orange fill them, Bitcoin Beneful plan is perfect for them because you can just, you can be giving them- A little bit every month, it's fifty dollars a month, hundred dollars a month, whatever it is, and then you're onboarding those people also, so that's also an interesting angle, I guess. Look, part of it is the cycle, right? Like, of course You know, right now people are saying, okay, like it's a bear cycle and etcetera. I'm sure cycle turns, you'll be getting like way more calls than you can answer. And so, you know, that's, that's part of it. But the flip side of that is, now's actually the time to be doing this stuff, to be, to be hodling some Bitcoin, to be, doing benefit plan and some of these other ideas. but, I think that's pretty much, about all we've got time for anyway. So To keep up with your work online." }, { "speaker": "dante_cook_of_swan_business", "time": "59:16", "start": 3556.4, "text": "Yeah, thanks, Stephane, for having me. you can find me on LinkedIn, at Dante Cook, I think I'm the number one person there on LinkedIn for that. And then my Twitter handle's at Dante underscore Cook one, and you can follow me on Twitter there, but, that's the best way to, to, to connect with me. And I'm always traveling and jumping on Zoom calls to do corporate education for companies. If you're remotely interested in- How would Bitcoin work within my context, within my company, within my cash flow strategy? Feel free to send me an email, Dante at Swan dot com. I've given this presentation a number of times and I'm happy to come in to help you, Orange Pill, your executive, team. maybe we'll bring in the SWAT team, we'll bring in Natalie, we'll bring in Safan, we'll bring in Corey, we'll bring in the heavy hitters to really close the deal, but I'm happy to just, be a, a sounding board, Just a voice to help you, think through Bitcoin in your company situation. So, Dante at swan dot com or find me online." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:20", "start": 3620.74, "text": "Fantastic, Dante. really enjoyed chatting with you and, thanks for joining me. Thanks, Stefan. I hope you found the episode informative. Make sure to share it with your family and friends, or particularly if anybody is in business and looking to upgrade to a business Bitcoin standard, send them this one. The show notes are available over at stephanlivera dot com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }