{ "episodeId": "SLP468", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "hampus_sjoberg": { "name": "Hampus Sjoberg", "role": "guest", "tag": "HAMPUS" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.55, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. You can use swan dot com or the Swan app for Apple or Android phones for safe and easy Bitcoin buys. With Swan, it's really easy to automate your purchases, so you can set up a recurring purchase plan. Or of course, if you wanna do a smash- Buy or a one time buy that's available also. Swan gives you free custody in your own legally owned trust account, and not your keys, not your coins. Of course, there is also free automated withdrawals to self custody. So with Swan, the philosophy is to try and automate your sat stacking, because many people can forget if they are trying to manually purchase. And so automate, automating those purchases is a great idea. Of course, you have to consider there is volatility with Bitcoin, and so with Swan, there is such a great focus on Education. So when you sign up with Swan, you'll receive a range of educational material, whether that is the Swan newsletter, some of the Swan content and shows that are out there, there is Pacific Bitcoin coming up, there's a range of educational material as well as books. So go to swan dot com slash livera and you'll get ten dollars of Bitcoin dropped into your account when you start stacking with Swan. Now, when we send Bitcoin on-chain transactions, I like to use mempool dot space as my Bitcoin blockchain explorer of choice. I use it to help Target the fee that I'm sending for my transactions. Mempool dot space is a comprehensive Bitcoin explorer, it covers the entire ecosystem. You can see the mempool, you can see the blockchain, you can see second layer networks like the Lightning Network, and with mempool dot space, you don't have to trust a third party because you can run it yourself. They've got a range of awesome features on their site, so it's a great one to go and check out and actually learn a little bit about how Bitcoin works. Now, if you're with an enterprise, mempool dot space offers customized mempool And mempool dot space is one of the most popular explorers in the space, so it's great exposure there. So go and learn more at mempool dot space slash enterprise. Are you ready for something big? BTC Prague is coming June eighth to tenth. This is going to be the biggest Bitcoin event in Europe. I'm excited to go, I'm going to be one of the MCs. There is an awesome lineup of speakers, with more speakers being announced, people like Michael Saylor, Jocko Mazzuchco, Ben DeWolfe from Swan, Obi from Fedi It's gonna be a huge conference and event. There will be multiple days where you can find something for you, whether that's the industry day and you're more business focused, there'll be a day that's more focused on just having it accessible for new people, and there will also be a whale zone area where there'll be premium food and drinks available for all three days, as well as an exclusive party event available for those on a whale ticket. So to get your ticket, it's btcprague dot com, use code livera. And the dates are June eighth to tenth, so keep that in mind, check out your flights and hotels to get there. So for today, I speak with Hampus Sjoberg. He is the creator of Blixt wallet, and some of you may know him if you were around at the time of Taproot activation. He's the guy who created the Taproot dot watch website, where people were tracking, how the activation, at the time was going with speedy trial. Now, Hampus joins me to talk about a range of things, LNURL comparison with Bolt twelve Blixt wallet and trade-offs of going custodial and non-custodial and trying to manage the balance of helping people have a non-custodial experience in a way that's slick. Also, we chat a little bit about Lightning Box and his views on Bitcoin soft forks. So I'm sure you will enjoy my chat with Hampus. Hampus, welcome to the show. Thank you. So, I'm a fan of your work. I've been, watching and learning a little bit from what you're saying on Twitter as well, and, recently had a chance to play around with Blixt wallet as well, which I know, you're working on. And so, yeah, I guess for me, you first came across my radar when you were doing the Taproot dot watch. website, right? You were doing this Taproot activation watch, and I think after that is when you became a lot more involved, or maybe you were already involved, but that was when you became well known." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "04:19", "start": 258.51, "text": "yeah, I mean, I w- I have been into Bitcoin for quite some time, but around the Taproot watch days, like the site got a lot of traction. So after that, I got more and more like, publicly involved on Twitter and so on. And also that's around the time Blixt Wallet started getting traction as well that summer. so yeah, that's, kinda how it all went down." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:42", "start": 282.13, "text": "Yeah, for sure. And I know you are also part of the, the LNURL mafia. So do you wanna tell us a little bit about, about that?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "04:50", "start": 290.36, "text": "Sure, yeah. Should I go through LNURL as well then, I suppose, and explain what it is? Yeah, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:55", "start": 294.76, "text": "for listeners who aren't familiar, LNURL is this, you know, way to quickly exchange invoices and information. So do you wanna just explain a little bit, yeah, for sure, just at a very high level, what is LNURL?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "05:07", "start": 307.06, "text": "Yeah, so LNURL is basically a set of protocols that helps you interact with the web. Like for example, let's say you want to- withdraw money from, websites like, exchange or whatever. You can basically scan, an LNURL code and, your wallet, if it supports the protocol, will automatically withdraw the money from there. So you don't need to paste, A lightning invoice and so on. You can just scan the QR code and you're good to go. So it's, it's kind of like a set of protocols that helps you with these things. with the most popular one is LNURL Pay, which is basically A way to have like a static code that you can pay towards, and on top of that, you also, it's also built upon the LN, Lightning address, format, which is basically like easy to read and easy to write handle like Hampus. At blixto dot com that you can pay with, that's supporting, lightning wallets. So it's like a set of nice-to-have protocols that helps you interact with the web. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:15", "start": 374.94, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me try and explain a little bit. So with Lightning, instead of working with a Bitcoin address, we work with a Lightning invoice, and typically people have to code in how many Sats to pay for that invoice, as an example, and then it can be a bit clunky if you are a user who has a mobile phone. With a Lightning add wallet on it or a Lightning app, and the website is the one trying to pay you out, then do you have to like do some awkward, exactly this many Sats and have this awkward, you know, experience where you have to think about what the fee might be, or do you have LNURL withdraw? So as an example, I've seen this on websites such as LN Markets and others out there where if you have a little custodial account on that platform, you can instantly withdraw with Lightning using LNURL withdraw as an example. Now, I also understand there are different types of LN URL, so I know there's LN URL pay, LN URL withdraw, LN URL auth to authenticate, and also, LN URL channel, and maybe one or two others. Can you just talk a little bit about the differences between those?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "07:17", "start": 437.41, "text": "Yeah, sure. Yeah. we already went through the LNURL withdraw protocol, so it lets you withdraw money from an ex-exchange or someone, which is quite neat. but you also have LNURL channel, which is basically a way to open a channel, with some party, like, for example, there is a very popular Service called LN Big, where you can basically like purchase, buy like a channel from them, and if you use Blixt wallet or any supporting, supporting wallet, you can just buy the channel and then you just scan the code. for, for it to get opened basically. So it's also like a convenience thing, like you can easily just scan something instead of having to do things manually, so to say. And you also have the LNURL of protocol, which is a way to use your Lightning, wallet or Lightning private key to log in to a website. So you don't need to have like a username and password anymore. You can just, like, leverage your Lightning wallet and, and the, the private key that you have there to log into websites. So then you don't have the, the risk of them leaking your password anymore, because there is no password stored on the, the service in question. So that's like a very neat way to, like, circumvent the problem of username/passwords getting leaked. Then you have, the last one is Well, and you will pay, I suppose, which I went over a bit, but it's, it's basically like a way to pay a web shop or a person without having to manually create an invoice every time, like, it's like an invoice requesting service, like, because Lightning always works with invoices, right? So you always have to have an invoice in, in the normal circumstances. So it's, it's a way to automate that kind of things." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:14", "start": 554.5, "text": "Yeah. And so that can be handy where a person needs a static QR code and they don't wanna just do on-chain static QR codes, or in the case where they don't want to have a paymem and also pre-Bolt twelve, which we'll get into as well, because I know there's been some back and forth and there's maybe some overlap, but I guess they don't exactly-- Bolt twelve and LNURL don't do exactly the same things. I think that's important to make it clear for people. Not at all. Yeah. But I guess one of the downsides is with LN Or you are custodially using somebody else's. So could you just elaborate and explain that and how that's" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "09:52", "start": 591.89, "text": "working for people? I think that's like, as you said, like if you use LNURL Pay, you basically have-- you have to have a web server somewhere, right? Because it works with the-- it works with domains like HTTP and so on. so it's not like na-- lightning native like Bolt 12 is, because in Bolt 12 you do the invoice request thing inside like Lightning itself. So that has some, some benefits there. I would say that, like, suppose you just want to have some, some, some QR code somewhere, you don't, you're not a very tech-savvy person, then I think having a, just having a BOLT twelve code could be beneficial. But let's say you have like a web shop or something like that, with LNURL-Pay you can also include metadata like an image of the payment or even like a link for the receipt in the end or something. So you have a lot of extensions to LNURL-Pay that you can benefit from. So like I would say that LNURL-Pay is more for business to customer and so on, like making purchases and so on, and Bolt12 is better for, just normal- Users, so say, and, you know, we don't need, we, you, you need some easy way to have a static code basically that will di-di-difference between them." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:13", "start": 672.91, "text": "And so it'd be useful to just talk about some of the distinctions there, because as I understand, the way BOLT twelve came about is, I think Rusty was basically looking at what was happening at the application level with Lightning developers out there who were sort of, I think, as I understand, they were looking for Certain functionality that didn't exist just natively in Lightning's protocol, and they were saying, \"Well, let's just build this into an application level.\" And then I think, as I understand, Rusty and maybe some other Lightning developers were at the protocol level thinking, \"Could we do something like this at the protocol layer, which maybe doesn't require a web server or some other elements of that?\" So I'm curious your thoughts on how to contrast those. I know they're not fully comparable, but they are similar in certain things." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "12:03", "start": 723.21, "text": "I mean, yeah, I think, I think both, sides came from the same, like, the need for having some kind of, invoice fetching service, basically, because that's, that's, that's, that is what LNURL-P and Vault12 does, like, in the end. It's, it attempts to fetch an invoice in the, most common scenario, right? But LNURL-P was specifically made for like commerce and those kinds of things. so I, I think that's, that's kind of like a difference between Vault12 At least in my view, because twelve, well, twelve is more generic, let's say, or it's not specifically for commerce like annual, annual pay is. but, yeah, there are some of the, it overlaps a bit, but I think, I think that both will live like in parallel for the, for the foreseeable future. I don't think that they will replace each other, so to say, that one, one will win. I know for sure that my, for my own project, Blixt, I will continue to use Use, and you'll, and you'll, and you'll pay for, for my, users and so on. So we'll, we'll see about that, but it's also, I think that both twelve is a very ambitious, ambitious project, with a lot of features. So I hope that they will see it. ready and finished soon, but it's a lot of, work it seems like to get, to get it rolling. And in comparison to, LNP, like there you only have like, conventional web technology basically, like it's a, it's a web server, it's like HTTP, it's JSON that you send back and forth and so on. So it's very like, normal things for a developer to deal with." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:43", "start": 823.46, "text": "Yeah, okay. and so as I understand, part of this is about the element of Being able to easily use Bitcoin and easily take donations, as an example, because I think right now today, now of course, in our more hobbyist Bitcoiner communities or let's say enthusiast Bitcoiner communities, people understand, oh, okay, maybe I should set up a BTC Pay server and take donations that way, as an example. But if somebody who just more peripherally knows about Bitcoin, the typical way is they would just have a Bitcoin wallet and they'll just post a Bitcoin address just publicly, and that's just a typical-- that's the thing that a lot of people have been doing. You Argued that that works because it's just kind of simple and effective. Trying to take that into a lightning context and make it simple and effective, it, it has these other trade-offs, right? Like either we need Bolt twelve to be available, or maybe that person has to have a web server that's accessible for them, or they need some other provider to help them. And I know this is something you've been focused on, haven't you? So do you wanna just elaborate a bit on how you're seeing this problem and solutions for it?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "14:46", "start": 885.74, "text": "Well, yeah, I, I have a product Which is basically like a Lightning address server. Just to recap, a Lightning address builds upon LNURL Pay, so it's like a synthetic sugar on top of it. So you have like an easy to read and write handle, like, it looks like an email address basically, but it lets you pay to a, to an LNURL Pay code. So I have like a little projects that basically lets, Lightning wallets, use a Lightning address, code. And like normally when you use Lightning address today, you have to use like a custodial wallet or you have to use your own routing node if you have one, that, and not, not everyone has that. So my Lightning address server will basically just, contact the, the- Lightning wallet on your phone and request an invoice for you. so that's a way to, like, it's, it's not custodial in the sense that it's still the lightning wallet's invoice, but there is like a trusted party that you talk to and get an invoice from. So that's a way to, to solve the problem with, getting light-lightning addresses to non-custodial or self-custodial wallets. so that's not something I'm working with. And they also will, you will also be able to easily self-host this lightning, Box, server for yourself. So if you w- if you are knowledgeable about these things, you can set it up yourself. but yeah, so because right now, if you look at Nostr, for example, most people on Nostr, they use some kind of, custodial Lightning address. And I would like to, give, give them an option to not use, custodial wallet there, because right now, it basically ninety-nine percent are using wallet, wallet of Satoshi or some custodial Lightning wallet for their Lightning address. So I'll try to fix that problem basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:50", "start": 1010.25, "text": "Yeah, right. And I see that as well. I've, I have a Lightning address using BTC Pay, but, that doesn't support the same, NIP for zaps and things like this, so it's not as slick as an example, so, because I wanted to have a non-custodial one, but I'm not yet at the level that I could have a non-custodial, zap, functionality, and maybe that gets built into BTC Pay as an example, but I think, like you said, the problem remains that not everybody can easily do this. So, I guess as I understand, the Lightning Box idea is it's almost like a in-between, and it forwards the request and says, \" That mobile user, let's say, gives an invoice, what happens in the case that that mobile is offline or, you know, not responsive?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "17:38", "start": 1057.84, "text": "Oh, yeah, exactly, that's, a big problem in general with Lightning, right, that if your wallet isn't online, you can't pay in Lightning. So basically, my idea with Lightning Box Is to just take the, the payment, custodially, like, it will, the Lightning Box Server will just take the payment on behalf of the user. Now, the difference between Lightning Box and something like, Custodial is that the next time, the user opens up their wallet, they're supposed to automatically, like, withdraw the funds that are available inside the box. So that's why the light-- that's where the Lightning Box comes from. so it holds, it holds Like it's like a cache for your payments. So that's how I, it's solving the problem right now with, with Lightning Box, it just takes the payment on behalf the user. But if the user is on, already online when the payment comes, then it can just forward the, the invoice request to the actual app in question. so that's, that's how I solve it right now. there are some very neat ideas on how to actually solve this problem as well. it's called like asynchronous payments, which is like, like a fancy way to, to, to, to not do this custodial. So you will basically have like an LSP in front of you, that holds the payment Not, not settle it, it's not custodial. It just holds the payment until you eventually come online in order to receive the payment. So that's called async payments. But it's, as far as I understand, no one is pursuing that, that technology right now. But it's probably something that will, that we will eventually see, so, and that will, that will kind of solve the offline payments problem a bit. and I'm also looking in- To that, but right now I will settle with the things I have." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:35", "start": 1175.26, "text": "Yeah, right. Yeah, it sounds like you're working on a lot. Yeah. And, I recall chatting about that with Matt Carallo, who I think he wrote that idea to the Lightning dev mailing list in maybe October twenty twenty-one, around there, just off the top of my head. But it requires a lot of things, right? It would require like an onion layer for messaging, it would require like, yes, these ways for the LSP, the Lightning service providers, to be able to hold it and then Across the network and things like this. Yeah, exactly. So there's-- And I think that kind of comes to where we have this sort of, there are people who have the today problem, right? They need to be able to take donations today, but, there's kind of solutions in the future that are more technically- Sound, let's say, and more decentralized in a way, and then we have things that are, that can sort of work for today, that could be used, let's say, and so I guess Lightning Box is an example. So where exactly is Lightning Box at right now? Is it mainly in, like, just an early testing phase, or are you actually using it now, or where is it at?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "20:38", "start": 1237.71, "text": "Oh, well, it's at an early testing phase, like, I, like, we have, upcoming feature for Blixt that lets the fo- like, be online, like it never closes down. So my Blixt wallet on my phone is always active and ready to, to get incoming, Lightning address requests. So my Lightning address, Hampus at Blixt dot com, will, like, if my Lightning box will forward all requests to that, Lightning address to my phone, 24/7, right now. So I'm currently evaluating the feasibility of this. So it's, it's kinda not ready right now, but it's, it's approaching to be ready. the, the Lightning box idea will probably have some kind of closed, beta soon. Yeah, I'm curious" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:24", "start": 1284.08, "text": "what the holdups are and just, just, yeah, and I'm curious what the, battery drain is and, you know, the CPU drain on your phone when you're doing that." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "21:34", "start": 1294.21, "text": "it's actually not that bad. I thought it would be much worse, but it's not. I talked a bit with Matt Caroll about this, like, if you use, like, the 4G or 5G modem, modem and not It gets a bit more worse done, but if you're just on Wi-Fi, it basically doesn't drain that much at all, so that's, that's kinda, kinda interesting. but I, I suppose that depends on the phone you're using and so on. but at least for me, the trade-offs are definitely worth it. so that's, that's kind of surprising because I remember that I tested this for Blixts Like three years ago, and the result was much worse back then. So, it's, yeah, it's definitely feasible for sure. Like we have, we have around three or four people right now that are running this always on mode, like all the time. So it does work, yeah. So that's kind of interesting. So, and also for the, for the upcoming Lightning Box, like Bera, it won't have the custodial part probably, we'll just try, we'll just try the, the, the forwarding part, like forwarding the, the, the, the The request to the, to the phone. So we'll see, we, we will evaluate the feasibility of this, but it's looking pretty, pretty good actually, I think." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:48", "start": 1367.73, "text": "Yeah. I'm also curious how the phone is, is being notified. Is it using Google Play services or is it using something like this to get a notification that, hey, you've got an incoming payment, wake up and give me an invoice?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "23:00", "start": 1379.69, "text": "Sure. It, it's actually using like Lightning itself. So, you know that as the fo-- as the app is always, like, it's, right now it's, Blixt wallet app. So that means that it has a connection to, to the Blixt wallet node as well. So what happens is that basically the Blixt node sends like, Peer-to-peer message to the Blixt wallet app, and then Blixt wallet, the app, responds back with the invoice basically. So it's just re-reusing Lightning itself to send messages back and forth, because like Lightning is also like a peer-to-peer network, right? So you connect to each other, so there's no need for, push. We could use that as well, but in this case, I just reuse the, the, yeah, the Lightning network connection itself. Which is quite neat." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:51", "start": 1430.82, "text": "Fantastic, yeah. So I am curious to see where things go with that and where things end up meshing together with, you know, if some people are using Bolt twelve or people, some people are using LNURL and kind of how it all mixes together. But I guess it's all about having these, the right building blocks that come together. So, you know, as an example, let, let's say somebody tries to take a payment but they don't have enough inbounder capacity, and then, you know, do they, how, how is the user going to To get, you need to get some more inbound liquidity, or is it using like an on-the-fly approach? I'm curious what your thoughts are there and what you're looking at in Blixt for that." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "24:29", "start": 1468.9, "text": "Oh, yes, yeah, we, we have like, on-the-fly channel opening service right now called Thunder inside Blixt. So I'm, I'm definitely for that kind, kind of, functionality. There may also be a use case for, I suppose it's called like hosted channels, like, there are some wallets called Simple Bitcoin Wallet and Open Bitcoin Wallet. But I feel that they basically have a channel that is custodial, like custodial, as a custodian. Like there, you can still, it still uses Lightning itself, but the funds are not Guaranteed on chain, let's say. and in the worst case scenario, I'm thinking that there may be a use case for using these kinds of things if there are no like inbound liquidity, because it's-- there's also a problem with all, all the time opening new channels, because that has some like upfront cost for the LSP that needs to reserve, bitcoin for that and so on. So that may be a, a use case to, like, mix, non-custodial and custodial, things together. because, yeah, if you have like a hosted channel, then you, you wouldn't need to open a, a real channel, at least not immediately. You may do that like later on, because in my opinion, like custodial services and so on, they are bad over long periods of time, and they're also bad if the amount is, like, if it's a, if it's a large amount of money, then it gets bad. It's, I don't think it's so bad small amount of money the matter is about, so that's also an interesting thing you can, you can do in Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:11", "start": 1571.25, "text": "Yeah, all right, and let's, let's chat a little bit about Blixt then. So I had a chance to play around with it, I thought it was interesting and, you know, the approach where you spin up the wallet, you fund it on chain, and then it automatically opens a channel, and then you're able to, you know, make and take some payments, although you gotta make a payment before then, before you can receive." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:33", "start": 1593.12, "text": "I LN Big and, Bitrefill link in the app so that way the user gets told, \"Hey, you can go get an inbound channel from here, use LN URL channel,\" in the case of LN Big. So, yeah, I guess those are a few things. Do you wanna just give us an overview about Blixt Wallet? What is it? Who's, who's the target market for that?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "26:53", "start": 1612.87, "text": "Sure. So, yeah, so Blixt Wallet is, self-cas, self-casual, non-casual, Lightning, node wallet. So it, it, it runs like basically LND underneath the Lightning node implementation, LND. It runs, it's straight up on the phone actually via, and also uses like an SPV Bitcoin node. It doesn't use a full node, but it's called Nutrino for syncing the actual blockchain. It uses Nutrino. And it's- It's, it's kind of like a very flexible but also easy to use wallet. Like you have the standard set of Flibst where you will just connect to and open channels with the Flibst node, so that's like the, the easy way to, to use Flibst. But you also have the opportunity and ability to easily open, a channel to your own routing node and so on if you have one, like that's your choice you have, and so on. You can also like connect your own Bitcoin node and, and so s-s-such things. And we also have like, almost full coverage of the LNURL protocol suite. So you can enjoy all the different kinds of things you can do with LNURL, like logging into LM markets or Collider and so on, and, you know, all the things that we talked about before you can basically do with, with Blixt. So I'll try to Make sure that I cover all the different, features that are available there. So yeah, it's, it's like, I'm trying to please like both audiences. Like, if you are just, if you just want an easy-to-use wallet, if you are a Bitcoiner, you can use Blixts, but also at the same time, if you want to customize your setup and connect to your own, routing node in your home, your \"umbrella,\" let's say, you can very easily do that as well. So, yeah, it's- And it tries to present it all in a very concise and, and easy to use manner as well. So that's like the, the honest, a lot of people likes to click it on though, the honest, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:58", "start": 1738.44, "text": "Yeah. And so when you set it up and you fund it on chain, as the typical setup goes, who is that channel being opened with? Is that being opened with the Blixt node?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "29:08", "start": 1748.09, "text": "Yes, yes, yeah. So then the normal operation is that it will open a channel to the Blixt LSP node, basically. It's called Blixt. At the, the node itself, you can look it up on, on Maple dot space. so that, that works kind of like, it works like Phoenix and Breeze. It will hook you up to, the Blixt project's node because it is well established in the network, so it will guarantee that you will have a good experience and so on. That's what happens in the normal, way of operation. Yeah. So that's, and also that's the same with the Thunder LSP that the on-the-fly channel functionality. It will be By default, open a channel towards with the Blixt node basically, but everything is made in a manner that it's easy to set up yourself." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:56", "start": 1795.5, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. When it comes to securing your Bitcoin, consider the hardware you are using. I personally use the Coldcard Mark IV, which is a great device by the team over at CoinKite dot com. Now, CoinKite make a range of products, but the Mark IV is the top device that they currently offer. It has a range of features, it has two secure elements, you can use it with Micro SD, so you don't even have to phone home. So that's a really cool feature that you can just plug this device into the wall, not into a device, and spin up the device, spin up your seed, get your twelve or twenty-four words, and use Micro SD to move things back and forth, or you can even use NFC in the latest cold card. Now, they also have the Q1 available for pre-order, so you can find that if you are interested in a QR supporting device. The, that website is coinkite dot com and use code Livera for a discount on Making it easy to use multi-signature and Unchained makes it secure, transparent, easy to use, and sovereign. So, so with multi-signature, you are removing single points of failure in your setup, and this can help give you that peace of mind knowing that you can make one or two small mistakes here and there, depending on what mistake you're making, and not lose the whole stack. And this may not be true if you are in a single-signature context. And of course, if you're leaving your coins with a custodian or an exchange, you need to get them off. You Self custody and Unchained can help you with this. They've got a range of ways they can do this, they have free content available on their website, you can even go and set it up on your own if you're confident, and you're willing to play around. Or of course, they have a concierge onboarding program where you can pay upfront, they'll ship you the devices, they'll do a call with you, they'll walk you through this and get you set up. So go to Unchained dot com slash concierge, use code Livera for a discount there. So this is an interactive community platform. It'll be re-useful for those of you who are builders, whether you are a product manager, a designer, an engineer. There are some events, as well as a mentorship program to fast-track your success and just have a community space to learn alongside other Bitcoiners who are building on the future of Bitcoin Layer 2. So there's a range of different technologies associated with Liquid and Core Lightning, so it's a great place to go and learn more there. So go and sign up, it's over at buildonl2 dot com. And now back to the show. Yeah. And so the way I'm seeing it, is it similar to-- in some ways it's similar to Breeze, like because you've got Neutrino and you're, you're using LND under the hood. Perhaps in other ways, it's sort of like because you're writing down, you know, the twenty-four word seed, it's an AE or AZed, which is the LND style, obviously 'cause it's using LND in the background. So it kind of has like a mix of some of the different well-known wallets out there, Important point for people to understand that it's not just a wallet, it's actually the lightning node is running on the device. And so that can be a bit sort of crazy to think about if you haven't really like thought about what's happening in the background. So then presumably, you know, that means you have to have the graph, as in the channel graph, synced on the phone, and then your phone is calculating the route where it's sending the coins on lightning. So it, it has to know, oh, okay, this is Hampus' node, and I'm sending him a thousand sats as an example, and I need to calculate that route." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "33:18", "start": 1998.33, "text": "Yeah, exactly. It's, as, as you said, it's, it's running LND, LND like Brie does and so on, so it does, it's, it's basically the same software being, being used on LND, and we'll, we'll do, we'll work with that as far as we can. Like, if Lightning starts to get bigger and bigger, it may not be feasible to do this anymore, but I think it's worth trying out to just have a real Lightning So, so it's, yeah, so it needs to sync the, the network graph and so on, which is quite, quite, quite bloated, bloated right now, but, it does work, like, we, we have people using Blixt on a daily basis, so it does work, but it's not as, like, let's say light-weight as Moon, for example, because it is a real lightning node inside, Blixt wallet, same as, like, Breeze and so on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:13", "start": 2052.63, "text": "Yeah, I Moon is a great wallet also, but it's, it's more like a Bitcoin on-chain wallet that can pay Lightning, you know, whereas it's not natively Lightning. Although I understand the Moon guys are looking to shift to a natively Lightning approach, it is currently it's more like an on-chain wallet, or at least you can kind of, you can kind of think of it like that." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "34:32", "start": 2072.38, "text": "Yeah, exactly. It doesn't like with Blixt, you, as you said, when you do a payment in Blixt wallets, your app will actually find the, find the path to the As far as I understand with Moon and so on, you're not really doing those things, right? Because it's not like a real, lightning node underneath. So, so there's, there are some differences here and some trade-offs being made." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:57", "start": 2097.42, "text": "Yeah, and I think, I think that's worthwhile thinking about depending on which countries you're in as well. So for example, Anita Posh did, recent, you know, test or trial with some different wallets, and I think what she found, at least for people who are in low connectivity environments, she found Phoenix is really Easy, and that kind of makes sense because Phoenix Wallet isn't doing the route finding, right? It's, it's a trampoline routing style and it's offloading that work to the async node. So maybe some wallets work better in the Western world where you have, let's say, high connectivity and your phone maybe is higher capability and it can do that sort of stuff, and maybe in areas where, let's say, you want to be natively lightning but maybe not doing everything, you can offload a little bit more, it's offloading more of it to the server, let's say." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "35:45", "start": 2145.25, "text": "Yeah, for sure. Like I, I saw that a little bit, I saw that, report she, she made. and yeah, if, if you have a very bad, like, internet connection, like she showed in, in these areas, then like syncing the graph and so on will be It'll be very messy, let's say. So something like trampoline routing will definitely help there, and it may be the case that we, we as well need to move to trampoline if If Lightning keeps growing like very much, we'll, we'll see about that, it's something to keep, keep in mind at least that, source routing may not all may not be feasible forever. right now it's, it's feasible, but we'll see if things start to grow even bigger than they is right now. So that's something I'm also looking into for Blixt, like how we're traveling." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:32", "start": 2191.59, "text": "Oh, right, okay, so yeah, basically that's a possibility in the future as well. Let's say the network does trampoline running." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "36:38", "start": 2198.25, "text": "Yeah, to be able to do that, but, you know, it's something that, we need to look into at least, so, because if, if it starts to not scale anymore, for the phone, then we kinda need to move to Taproot as well. But for the time being, it's, it's definitely feasible, so we'll see about that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:02", "start": 2221.59, "text": "Yeah. One other area I wanted to touch on is the contact list, because I think this is something that is going to become more and more important. I, I think people having regular contacts helps you live on Bitcoin. So as an example, if you have employees and you need to regularly pay them out, that's an example. Or if you have somebody who you're regularly paying lightning, then having this contact list is actually, I think, an important feature. So do you want to touch on this and what you've done with the contact list in Blixt?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "37:32", "start": 2251.87, "text": "Sure, yeah. so you have like a in Blixt wallet, I have like a contacts and services, I think it's called. So basically it's, right now it's like a contact list for, LNURL pay and also LNURL withdraw. So you can store your, like, LN market accounts. In that list, basically. But in the future, I hope to, expand this to also support keys and payments and both Twill payments and so on. But right, right now it's mostly for Lightning address, LNURL, LNURL Pay, and also LNURL Withdraw. but this, this also goes hand in hand with the Lightning Box concept, because, as Blixtio has sketched, the Lightning address, you can store them in the contact list, so It's, yeah, it's feels more like a real wallet, let's say, with these kinds of, features. so, so that's, that's something I'm, I'm working on as well, fixing the like contact list feature. And also this may also connect in the future with Noster as well, like because there, there's a lot of interest in Noster accounts as well, I think." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:41", "start": 2320.99, "text": "But, yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting idea as well. I hadn't really thought about that. So in terms of Blixt today, does it Lightning address?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "38:51", "start": 2330.56, "text": "No, not, not, not right now, but I hope to have something ready maybe this summer or so. I see. we'll try to get some, 'cause this is all pretty new. Like r-right now, it's basically just my phone that has this Lightning box thing, but we'll try to get something out like a beta pretty soon here, because there's been a lot of enthusiasm c- about this, this service, because I reckon that, most people want to have some kind of- Like, not completely trust the custodial thing, like, 'cause they have-- right now most people use the custodial wallets, right? So, so there's a lot of enthusiasm surrounding this topic, everywhere. So, but yeah, so I'm definitely working as hard as I can to fix this. It'll be interesting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:37", "start": 2376.56, "text": "Yeah, and I think there's been a lot of discussion online. I've seen, I see both sides of this, right? One side of it is, look how easy and slick it is to get people using Lightning, but then on the other hand," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:48", "start": 2388.29, "text": "Custodial things, and that's not in the ethos of Bitcoin, and maybe some of those people are more in the Lightning hater gang, but nevertheless, you know, the custodial criticism is there, and so it's worthwhile looking at what ways, you know, people can minimize that concern or minimize the custodialism and sort of shift it more towards a self-custodial. And I know obviously you're doing, you know, everything in your power to help that, but, I think it's worthwhile looking at that. And even the Lightning Box idea, I'm curious as well, Something that maybe it's-- and, you know, maybe that's kind of what Lightning Box is, right? The idea is it's, maybe it's custodial, but then as soon as your phone comes on, it kind of says, \"Hey, I'm online, send me, send me all the payments I got.\" And so that way, it's only-- you're minimizing the amount of time that you are custodial, right?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "40:33", "start": 2433.14, "text": "Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. also want to touch briefly on the, the convenience of, custodial wallets, like, 'cause I" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "40:49", "start": 2448.71, "text": "Yeah, as we see right now with the Lightning Address, like probably if Lightning Address didn't exist, something else will come up and be the convenience thing that people use. So we can all, we can just try to fight that as good, good as you can, as self-custodial wallets. And so that's what I'm trying to do with, with the Lightning Address, Lightning Box, sorry. I'm trying to give like an option for people, to use. and so, so, yeah, so, and also we can, you can do so Some kind of, fingerprinting as well, I suppose, because what I mean by that is that, let's say that you, your phone sends to a Lightning address, you could possibly save that, like, identity of the pub key that you sent to and make sure that it matches for the next time you make a payment. So then, then you have some kind of security that a rogue, Lightning box server can't, can't just all of a sudden, become rogue and, and change to its own invoice instead of Of the receivers, because you save that information, within the center wallet. So that's, that's some of the ways you can, circumvent the problem of, the trust being" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:59", "start": 2519.06, "text": "seen. I see. So let me understand that a bit. So I guess you're trying to respond to one of the crit-criticisms or concerns that I've seen. I believe Macorello actually raised this one, where he was saying, \"Okay, yeah, you're kind of non-custodial, but actually you're still trusting in the sense that that server, the Lightning Box server Party to fund someone else instead of that money coming to you, as in, put in other words, it could siphon off the payments that are intended for you but going to itself. And so I guess what you're trying to say is you could try to mitigate that?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "42:30", "start": 2550.5, "text": "Yes, exactly, yeah. Like right now with the custodial wallets, they can all siphon from the, from the users all the time and just rug pull at any time, right? With Lightning Box, I'm trying to minimize the risks as much as possible. But I suppose you could also, like, the thing with It could potentially also be integrated with BOLT 12, for example. Let's say that you fetch, BOLT 12 invoice the first time you send to a lightning address, then the wallet could save that Both twelve offer for the future and not rely on the lightning address, lightning box, sorry, sorry anymore for the future. So there are some interesting synergies with these kinds of things as well that you can do. but yeah, you know, I think things need to be taken in steps right now. So I'm trying my best to, minimize the custodial, custodial risks of lightning addresses, because right now the non-custodial wallets they're losing on the walkover basically, and the custodial wallets So you're just winning because there's no option at all right now, other than self-hosting your own, lightning address server, which not everyone is capable of doing, right? So, so yeah, that's what I'm trying to accomplish. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:43", "start": 2622.74, "text": "right. And I mean, for me, I'm, I'm like a, very much an enthusiast. I, I have one, but that's only 'cause I'm running a BTC pay server, right? Otherwise, it'd be a lot of work, and it's probably more work than it's worth to do that, whereas if I guess you need a domain and you need a web server, and not everybody has that, right?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "44:05", "start": 2645.47, "text": "Yeah, that was te- sort of, sort of difficult to tell. Yeah, and peo- people in general don't like to run servers, right? It's a very- Like tech savvy thing to do. So if you want to appeal to other people, you need, like, we need to make some trade-offs here. And I think that, like, the Lightning Box trade-off is, is a sound one. But sure, I'm open to criticism, of course. But I think, I think it's at least better than purely custodial solutions, let's say." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:35", "start": 2674.53, "text": "Right. And I think that's a fair argument to make. Now, hopefully, let's say the, the vision in the future might be that, let's say, you've got this contact list and Are all non-custodial or self-custodial, and maybe they have a Lightning box server that they're using, and maybe at the start, maybe they're using like somebody else's Lightning box server, and then eventually maybe they can go, they can set up their own Lightning box server, and then now you have these contact lists where everyone can just seamlessly shoot each other money, just like people are doing on Nostra today with Zaps or just in general with Lightning addresses, and it makes it really slick and easy to kind of go back and forth between services that you're using, whether it markets or something else or, you know, other services and just other people who you are regularly paying or receiving from. So I guess that's, that's maybe that's like a future possible vision. What do you see, what else can you see as a future vision that you're trying to build towards?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "45:29", "start": 2728.69, "text": "That's a good question. I mean, we can touch a bit with, with Lightning Box, like it's supposed to also be very easy to self-host if you're capable of doing that, right? because it's, right now it only relies on Having like an LND node, there's no, complex things that are needed to set up your own, like, Lightning Box solution. So the, the barrier to entry is as low as it possibly can be, right? at least that's the, that's what I'm trying to, to accomplish there. So, yeah, so that's," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:02", "start": 2762.41, "text": "so one other question, does the Lightning Box runner have to also run a Lightning node, or is it more that that's being done on the, on your phone, and Lightning Box is more just-- Because then the other aspect is that person has to run a routing node." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "46:15", "start": 2775.37, "text": "Kinda, yeah. Well, it, it needs to, like, if you want to take, It depends on the, the, like there are different modes of operations for Lightning Box. Like if, if the Lightning Box provider wants to take the, the payment on behalf of the user, like custodial, then they will need to have a routing of this wallet. But if they just want to forward payments to the, to the wallet, then it, it basically just needs a Lightning node, it doesn't need to actually be a routing node, it just needs to somehow communicate with, like run channels and stuff. Yeah, it needs to communicate With the, with the, with the wallet basically in some way. So, so it depends on the mode of operation, but normally the Lightning provider will probably, route you know this well, but there's no hard, depends on that, no." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:04", "start": 2823.74, "text": "Yeah. In terms of fees, can you talk to us a little bit about that? In terms of, let's say you're running this Dunder LSP and what kinds of fees people can expect to pay in terms of on-the-fly channels, so as an example, when you set up your Lightning node and you, you need You need to be able to, you know, get set up quickly. What kinds of fees are we going to be paying for those on-the-fly channels? And then what kinds of routing fees would we be paying? And what kind of, yeah, what kind of, routing fees would we expect to see as the user?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "47:35", "start": 2854.67, "text": "Sure. well, right now everything is basically very altruistically made, so, there's no like fee per se, like, the Thunder, you will have to cover like the clo- the transaction, like on-chain transaction fee, you will have to Cover yourself. The chain fee, yeah. But there is no like, yeah, exactly. So that, that's what you need to cover right now. It's very like, altruistically made right now with these services. But probably in the future we'll have some kind of scheme. But right now, I'm just trying to, get people on to Lightning basically. So I don't, I don't take any cuts, neither for LightningBox nor for the Dunder right now, so and also that, that's also with the channel, like the Lightning channels themselves. Do not have any fees either, like the private channels that you open with the, with the Blixt node. But that, that's, that will probably change in the future, but not right now. It's just free." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:32", "start": 2912.26, "text": "Yeah. And on that question, do you have any thoughts around profitability or sustainability of this project, right? Are you looking to, like, where would you charge fees in order to keep the project sustainable?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "48:44", "start": 2923.89, "text": "Oh, yeah, I think it makes the most sense to have some kind of fee on the actual, channels themselves. Ourselves, right, that you open with the Blixt node. So that's, as I said, right now there is no fee, but in the future there will probably be some kind of cuts, like, and that's kind of similar to the other, what others are doing. I think BlueWallets and Wallets Satoshi, like BlueWallets are closing down, but they also have, some percentage cuts on the actual payments being made. So that's probably where we'll do things as well with Blixt. And also, we'll probably have some kind of fee for the act-actual services that you use. So if you want a Lightning box, you will probably have to pay some kind of fee, because that will cover spam as well, if you have to pay for getting a Lightning address. So external services such will probably also have a fee in place, but right now everything is for free basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:43", "start": 2982.77, "text": "Yeah, awesome. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I had a quick play around, just, you know, for an hour or so, maybe a bit less, found it interesting, and, yeah, listeners have a, have a go- of it and see what you think, and, and let Hampus know what you think about it. I know there's a Telegram channel as well, so people can jump into that. And let's talk a little bit about what you wanna see, like in Bitcoin and Lightning. let's start with Lightning. So what do you, what are you most interested to see in terms of improvements coming? What are you, you know, if there was like your wish list, what, what would you, what's on, what's top of your wish list?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "50:11", "start": 3011.11, "text": "The wish list is long, long" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "50:20", "start": 3020.46, "text": "I'm very interested in something called the stuckless payments. So what that means, like, yeah, yeah, just briefly explain how it works. So right now when you make-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:31", "start": 3031.06, "text": "Yeah, yeah, just give a brief explanation. What is a stuckless payment? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "50:34", "start": 3034.15, "text": "Sure. So r-right now when you make a lightning payment, your wallet will basically, will just mix, it will split the payment in different shards, let's say, and, with different amounts so it can find like, path to the destination. Like, but- Let's, let's say it splits into three paths, and then it will base, it will try to find the receiver node somehow. but the problem is that, let's say that one of these shards, one of these HOCs, they get stuck in the middle because the node that was supposed to forward the payment is very slow to respond. Let, let's say it's just, just a slow node in general. That means that you will have a lot of, like, delay in Lightning. That's, that's, that's one, that's one of the reasons why so-Lightning sometimes- It's just slow to make payments because, shards and parts of the payments can get stuck while trying to traverse to the destination, basically, the receiver node. so the idea with stuckless payments, stuckless payments is that you can burst out a lot of small shards and just enough of them have to reach the destination, like it doesn't matter if Two, two of them get stuck somewhere because eventually if, if enough shards, if enough parts of the payment gets to the destination, the payment will go through basically. so that's the one way to like mitigate this problem of having to, like, having s-slow node network slow down your payments. So that's something I really want to see because, if you're going to have lightning in like brick and mortar shops and so on and, and, and use lightning for real it's, it's kinda fragile to rely on, on, on, on nodes not being slow in the network, and so on. So, but yeah, so that's, that is what stuckless is about, and I think that's something we, we need to eventually do, but it requires some, more functionality and tech for Lightning to work. It requires something called PGLCs. So that's one of the things I'm really, really looking forward to having in Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:46", "start": 3166.41, "text": "Yeah. Have you got any thoughts on splicing? I guess that would be useful for you on the Blixt LSP side of it, right?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "52:53", "start": 3173.12, "text": "That will, yeah, exactly right. That will be really useful for Blixt, like, yeah. So splicing is basically can open, like again- If you want more, funds in someone's channel, you can basically make a new on-chain fund-channel, but it will merge with the already existing channel, it will splice it in basically. So that's, that's a splice in, so you can add more funds to an existing channel. Because like, you don't want to have too many Lightning channels in your wallet, because that als-that means that the invoice QR code will eventually get too large to be able to scan. So you want to have it like a- At a maximum five channels. So that's the way to solve this is that you, you just splice in, so you can add more funds to the channels. Then you also have the concept splice out. So if you want to send an on-chain transaction, but you only have funds in Lightning, you can basically reuse your channel to send someone, on-chain, via an on-chain transaction. Then you also open a new channel at the same time basically with, with the remaining funds. So those things are very important things for improving like, UX for Lightning node wallets." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:12", "start": 3251.72, "text": "Fantastic, yeah. So we can think of it like resizing the channel while also making or taking a payment. So those will be handy to see. I know, our friend Dusty is working on some of that stuff, and he's making some progress on splicing. So it'll be interesting to see, if that comes to, you know, fruition, and I'm hopeful that it It does. Also, I want to chat a little bit about Bitcoin in general, like Bitcoin soft forks and things like this, because I've seen this is something you're quite vocal about. Obviously, it can be controversial, but at the same time, is it worthwhile talking about? Because are there benefits that outweigh the costs? Let's hear it from your perspective. How should we think about soft forks in Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "54:50", "start": 3290.13, "text": "Yeah, I think, well, I think we need to figure out like, Bitcoin isn't perfect and it's not Fully developed, right? At least, not in my opinion, because when Satoshi first developed and created Bitcoin, he wanted to solve this, double spending problem basically. Like he wanted to make sure you, you have like a decentralized network, where you can pay someone and you, you can't double spend or so on. So, so he fixed that by the ledger, the blockchain, and also with proof of work, right? But he-- So that's the main primary problem he had to solve, the double spending problem, the Byzantine general- problem. But like people were quick to point out that, Bitcoin has a lot of, issues, and the, the primary one is mostly scaling, right? It is, it scales badly and, and so on, and also privacy is a problem. so Lightning, for example, tries to help and fix the scaling problem, but it's not the end-all-be-all, right? It still needs to continue to-- We still need to continue to, to work with Bitcoin to- To make it scale better. So, so that's why I think that we shouldn't, give up on the, on soft forks and network upgrades. We still need to improve the network so that we can handle all the, the load basically, and so on. And so, that's my general view about, about soft forking. That it's, Bitcoin isn't perfect the way it is, like it's, it's, far from perfect actually. It's a brilliant innovation, but it's, we need to, to make sure that we can, Use it basically, if that makes sense. So, so there are a lot of soft forks, right now that people are discussing and so on. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:34", "start": 3394.5, "text": "are there any particular soft forks that you are really interested in or that you would want to see?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "56:39", "start": 3399.04, "text": "I mean, I think that the software called NLPW out, sigHfNLPW out, is, cause it's a fairly simple, soft fork, but it lets us, do some interesting stuff for Lightning. It lets us do something called L2, which is a very good upgrade for the Lightning And it also lets, like, and it provokes us, lets us do like, simple space chains, chains, basically. So a space chain is basically a one way peg to our side chain. so it lets us do that. So that's one of the soft forks that people has, have been discussing for quite some time, and I, my understanding is that it's kinda ready to, to, to, get deployed. We just need to, like, discuss it and get consensus around it. But we also have the-- There's also the new guy in town COP Vault, Softfork. So what that is, a vault is basically a way to, have some, some insurance or security for your, for your Bitcoin. So, you will lock your funds in a vault, and the only way to get funds out from the vault is to send it to a specific, Bitcoin address. So if, if you see some kind of, unintended withdrawal from your, from your vault, you could easily like, make sure they're swept to a safe location basically. So, so these kinds of things will help for, exchanges and, and other entities dealing with a lot of Bitcoin and want to have some insurance. But it can also be helpful for normal users to have some kind of, vaulting service that they rely on. To have some safety. So those are two things that I'm, I'm very interested in and looking into." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:31", "start": 3510.56, "text": "Yeah, and, one other thing, you mentioned the, the space chains idea, I know that's, something by Rubin Thompson. What's actually for you, what's the interesting part of the space chain aspect? Why, why would that be interesting to you?" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "58:42", "start": 3521.59, "text": "It's a good way to start experimenting with the side chain. Like, it's, it's not a side chain in the traditional sense, because it's not like a two way peg. Like a space chain is funds into this pay chain, but you, in the normal operation, you can't get funds out, like you, you basically burn your Bitcoin. But it's maybe a good way to start experimenting with, with, some functionality and stuff like, you can, for example, you can do like a DNS, space chain. So for example, for the concerns regarding Lightning Box, you, you could potentially have like a space chain DNS chain for retrieving like, a Lightning address, for example, as an, as an interesting thought. So I'm mostly interesting in trying, trying these kinds of s-side chains out, basically. It's, it's a very like, low footprint with the space chain stuff as well, because like you have this, sovereign rollup that got popular lo- some weeks ago, and they're, as far as I understand, they're very bloated on the actual chain, but for space chain, it's very like low footprint on the main Bitcoin chain, which is quite, quite interesting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:59", "start": 3599.3, "text": "Yeah, I see, yeah. interesting stuff. I, yeah, I hadn't, I haven't looked as much into the space chain stuff, so, yeah, just because I think I kind of disregarded it early because I just thought, \"Oh, one way peg, what's useful about that? Why, why is that, you know, interesting?\" But, definitely any prevout and yeah, it's a common criticism, yeah, and op vault are certainly interesting to me. I think they would be cool and probably good things to add, and I think it's important to see that these are mostly," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:30", "start": 3630.98, "text": "They don't hurt the, the non-users who don't want to use any prevout or opvault, but any prevout could help us scale in terms of more people using Bitcoin self-custodially. So that's why for me, I'm interested in the idea. I did an episode recently with Greg Sanders as well, talking about it, and of course, there's also an episode with James O'Beirne about opvault for any listeners. But, yeah, I think that's probably a good spot to finish up there. But, have you got" }, { "speaker": "hampus_sjoberg", "time": "01:01:00", "start": 3660.92, "text": "You can find me on Twitter at Hampus underscore S, that's H A M P U S underscore S. And yeah, I mean, if you like a lightning wallet, try a Blixt wallet out. we have like a- Great Blixt wallet community with, lot of enthusiastic people and that are helping out and so on. So check out the Telegram group if you're interested, and yeah, go to Blixt wallet dot com. And, and find the wallet there. And also you can find my nostr.pub key on my Twitter account, so you can find it on the desktop." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:33", "start": 3693.66, "text": "Oh, great, yeah, I'll, I'll include all the links in the show notes. So thanks, Hampus, for joining me. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed the show, and as I'm now going to be traveling for a little bit, I'm attending LightningCon in Vietnam and then Bitcoin Island Retreat, so just so you know, there might be a gap in episodes, and the next few episodes might come out in early April. And if you got value out of the show, make sure to like and share it and give it a good review on whatever platform. thanks for all your help out there, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }