{ "episodeId": "SLP486", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals": { "name": "Peter Dunworth is a financial adviser for high net worth individuals", "role": "guest", "tag": "PETER" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.61, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics, brought to you by Swann dot com. So I just got back from BTC Prague and I did an interview with my friend Peter Dunworth. He is a financial advisor for high net worth individuals and families, and he's joining me to talk about some of the pitfalls and opportunities of Bitcoin estate planning and inheritance. So we talk a little bit about why bother with all of this and some of the benefits of it, as well as practical components and what it might look like in the future. And for those of you moonboys, we also talk about his valuation framework for Bitcoin. The lead sponsor of this show is Swann dot com, and you can also get the Swann Bitcoin app available for Apple or Android. With Swann, you can do safe and easy Bitcoin buys along with recurring purchase plans or one time buys, also known as smash buys. Swann offers free custody in your own legally owned trust account and free automated withdrawals to your self custody. Now, Swann started and is known as a dollar cost averaging or auto stacking app, but it's also available for high net Net worth individuals over at swanprivate dot com, you can have a trusted partner on your Bitcoin journey with a dedicated Bitcoin expert, access to exclusive events and support for a range of account types. There's also Swan Business for those of you who are with a business and want to stack as part of a business. So go to swan dot com to find out more. This show also brought to you by coinkite dot com, the makers of Bitcoin hardware that you can use to secure your coins. Now, most of you know about the Coldcard, but I think a lot of people are still not familiar With the TapSigner, this is a great intermediate and cheaper device that might be useful in a different context. You can use this as perhaps a smaller single signature wallet that's more convenient, and you use it to tap sign with apps such as Nunchok. Another example is you could use this as part of a multi-signature where it is one of the keys in a broader multi-signature setup. The TapSigner is a great device, and it's recently coming down in price. The blue edition is available for about thirty dollars, so this is a great option if you have friends and you want- On a cheap device to help them get off the exchange or get off the custodian and get started with a hardware device before later they're able to upgrade to other devices like the coldcard. So go to coincard dot com and get a discount using code levera on your coldcards. And now onto my chat with Peter. Peter, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "02:33", "start": 153.27, "text": "It's a pleasure to be here, Stefan. Nice to see you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:36", "start": 155.85, "text": "Yeah, so Peter, I, I've known you for a few years, and I know you've been obviously very involved in the Australian Bitcoin scene, especially recently, speaking at the Bush Bash and at the, Bitcoin Alive also, and, yeah, interested to chat with you about, what you're doing and, you know, where you think Bitcoin inheritance needs some work, and I think you have some interesting insights to add on probably what most people So, do you wanna just start with, I guess it's normally interesting to start with why, why, why care about this to begin with?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "03:08", "start": 187.63, "text": "That's a great question, and I think we as Bitcoiners go through an, an enormous amount of pain and suffering with the volatility to provide an outcome, not only for ourselves, in the form of financial freedom, but I, I guess we invest in this asset or buy this asset in the hopes that it'll also help set up our future generations, it's, A potential, you know, asset that will help solve a whole host of issues that we have. And so, I think estate planning is really important because for me personally and for our clients, we wanna see the benefit of that sacrifice that we make in this day and age, be passed on to benefit our beneficiaries, so our children and our wives, you know, once we're gone, and it, it feels sort of quite short-sighted, particularly with, you know, some fairly, lengthened time preferences when it comes to Bitcoin, to think of just ourselves when this is an asset that has the ability to set up, multiple generations into the future." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:01", "start": 241.09, "text": "Yeah, so I guess we can summarize that there will be better outcomes from a legal and tax perspective rather than, let's say, you know, what many people are probably doing, which is to quote-unquote, yolo and just sort of, it's a, oh, it's a donation to the network, or, or just kind of hoping that, let's say, their wife or their children can recover the coins from a twenty-four word seed or something like this, right?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "04:25", "start": 265.34, "text": "Well, this is the hardest You know, if we think about planning, estate planning when it comes to Bitcoin, there are some complexities to it, but I think if you take the time to think about what are the outcomes that you want to achieve, there are some really important things that you can achieve by setting aside some time to do it and sadly, thinking about one's death and how people pass on Bitcoin from the grave, was actually the title for presentation I did at Bitcoin Alive, but It's not a great topic that people want to address on a personal level because it's quite confronting thinking about, well, what happens when I'm not here? And the, the interesting thing about when you actually go about setting up an estate plan for- For your Bitcoin and what happens after you pass is, you know, and, and this is probably quite contentious and we'll probably get into this a little later, but if you, use the current legal structures, there are some significant benefits from a tax perspective and from a legal perspective that give you, a whole host of, legal, preferential legal treatment when it comes to, protecting assets. So I think a little bit of forethought and thinking about this before you pass can set up your beneficiaries for a much better use of your Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:31", "start": 330.87, "text": "Yeah. So let's go into some of those benefits you mentioned, the legal and the tax aspects." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "05:35", "start": 334.89, "text": "So from a, from a legal perspective, I think there are a number of ways to do this, and the best way to do this is probably to highlight, you know, an example of this. So, in Australia, we look after clients globally, but in Australia, there is, a, a divorce rate of say two in three, people get divorces, and although this is a horrible thing to think about from a personal point of view, one of the things that we need to mitigate from a risk perspective is ensuring that our clients have coins for, you know, basically hold onto their coins for as long as possible. And although we, as Bitcoiners, talk about threat of government seizing our Bitcoin in a, you know, six one o two style attack when it comes to statistics, the most likely person to take your Bitcoin, sadly, is the person that you're partnered with. And so from a risk mitigation perspective, when you look at estate planning, estate planning might not be of benefit to you and I, but it can be of huge benefit to our children in setting up what's called a testamentary trust in Australia, and basically all Western democracies that are built on British law have, have fundamentally a similar type thing that- Basically this, this ability to have a testamentary trust and what, what that means is basically you have a will, when you pass, they set up what's called a testamentary trust on your death, and then all your assets pass into that. And that, that testamentary trust basically is the strongest legal protection that you've got against a family law court from future claim on that. So if you've got a daughter or a son, if you wanna leave your bitcoins to them, and you think there's a two in three chance that our bitcoin, you know, that we've worked our entire life And Hoddle is going to get taken by their partner in the event of a divorce, then you want to put that in the strongest legal framework that will avoid or mitigate the risk of that happening. And this is where contrary to, you know, and this is quite topical from a, a Bitcoin's perspective, there are certain legal frameworks that are developed that can give you protection from that sort of thing if you play within the framework and understand the non-KYC But if you're playing in the KYC space, there are some legal protections that are afforded to you that you otherwise might not have. So from a, a big picture perspective, and I don't pretend to tell people what to do with their Bitcoin, I'll just make that statement upfront and clear because You've probably got one of the most sophisticated audiences when it comes to Bitcoin and their level of knowledge, so they, they know this stuff, but they might not have heard from a legal perspective why you would wanna ent-entertain that conversation. And so that's from a legal side of things, there are some protections on that from an asset protection perspective, and then from a tax perspective, that, that trust structure that gets set up on a death basically allows you to distribute, potentially, among a number of beneficiaries, so you can actually lower the tax threshold from distributing. from that, from that entity. So all of a sudden we have, not only the tax benefits associated with it, we've got the ability to lower or mitigate risk from a, from a family law court, or alternatively, if you, would it have- Happen to accidentally injure someone, there's no personal claim against those assets because technically, although you've got full use and control of those assets, technically they're not yours." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:42", "start": 522.48, "text": "Yeah, interesting. So let's summarize then. So there, you mentioned, like a legal protection and potentially the intent, like honoring the intent of the Bitcoin hodler that, let's say, he wants to give a certain number of coins to his son or daughter, that's one aspect, and you mentioned as well around, a tax benefit there that, you may be able to have low Were tax applied, when you're passing those coins on and also around asset protection. So I suppose in the case of, let's say your estate were to get sued, that kind of thing, there might be some protection in that sense also." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "09:17", "start": 557.2, "text": "Absolutely. So you've covered it off on three fronts. The tax is beneficial, yeah. The family law court provisions and the protection from basically a separation of, of a marriage or a partnership, and then finally, protection from, I guess, litigation from maybe malice or- or Malfeasance, it, it might be a number of things, so there are some pretty good protections with that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:39", "start": 578.88, "text": "And, one other question, in terms of contrasting with just a simple will, like as an example, let's say the hodler is, okay, I mean, just to pick easy numbers, let's say, the hodler has, I don't know, just to pick the easy numbers, let's say the hodler has ten Bitcoin and he wants to give five to his wife and five to his son, or whatever, as an example, and he nominates as opposed to having that sort of spelled out in a will, if it can be that way." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "10:09", "start": 608.56, "text": "I'm so glad you asked this question because the implications of this from a legal perspective are quite profound, and what we just talked about doesn't really do it justice until you see an example of this. So let's just use the example of a couple, the husband passes away, leaves his Bitcoin, half of them, five to his wife, five to the child. if that wife were to remarry Those five Bitcoin are now up for claim without a testamentary trust when they're not in a testamentary trust. So let's just say Bitcoin goes to the moon, this wife marries a new person, and it's not a great relationship, they basically fall out, that partner can then turn around and basically lay claim to half of those bitcoins in a legal proceeding in the family law court. And so that's kind of a bitter pill to swallow, particularly if you've worked your entire life to provide for your family. Now, the same thing can happen to- The son, who that's left to as well. They may get married, and, you know, if they get married young, there's a chance that basically the marriage, falls apart. In Australia, the, the divorce rates are somewhere close to two in three, which is outrageous, but that's just what we're working with from a statistical perspective. So you've got a two in three chance of going through a divorce, and if those bitcoins aren't in the legal framework of the- the, the trust, they're up for claim. So, you know, you can be partnered with someone for two years, get married, and then, you know, there might be an affair or something like that, and that partner then says, \"Well, you've got five bitcoins, I'd like to have half of them.\" Or if it's a female claiming, it could actually even be higher, we, could have, I've seen up to seventy percent. So These legal frameworks are really important from protecting and hodling Bitcoin in the long term." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:46", "start": 705.51, "text": "I see. And I suppose you might also have some insight into family battles after somebody has passed, right? That, I guess, that, that can also happen, right? That, that, you know, after somebody has passed, remaining family members are squabbling over who gets what and how much. Yeah. Is there anything, any insight you can share around that and, you know, in a Bitcoin context?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "12:07", "start": 727.13, "text": "I, I think it's really important to, probably- I think the best rule of thumb I've seen is that, you know, the, the contest of wills typically happen when assets are distributed unequally or it's seen to be unfair to one of the family members. So So that's, that's the first, basically the tip is if you're, you know, thinking about planning this estate plan, you wanna make sure it's fair for everyone. Secondly, it's really important to communicate what the expectations are for everyone as well. And one of the, one of the best things I've seen to help mitigate, any contention of the will, after death has been, basically an agreement that all of the beneficiaries sign on an annual or, five yearly basis to confirm that their expecta- expectations are X, Y, and Z, and this is what they expect to happen in the will. So this is a document that can basically be presented in court to show that here was the expectation, this is how it was distributed, and it's in line with, you know, three or four or five documents that they've previously signed to confirm that that's what their expectations were. So I think that's a really powerful tool that from a legal perspective, it, it doesn't look like it has a lot of weight, but what it shows is a consistency of effort and intent over time, which helps" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:22", "start": 801.69, "text": "that's an interesting point, yeah. And so, also, are you able to help explain the concept between possession and title to those, you know, to the coins, right? Because, you know, in Bitcoin, it's not your keys, not your coins, right, in terms of the protocol, but the legal aspect isn't necessarily the same. So can you just sort of help explain that aspect for us?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "13:44", "start": 824.05, "text": "I love this because this is the beauty of Bitcoin, right? Not your keys, not your coins. And the, the interesting thing about this is, is that- That Bitcoin and the cryptography that it's based on, on basically a hierarch-hierarchical basis, cryptography ranks a lot higher than legal claim, and this is the funny thing that a lot of lawyers don't quite get, and they think, you know, they don't understand Bitcoin, and they don't quite understand that cryptography trumps legal. And what's really important is to marry the two, and they're very distinct. You've got a legal claim to Bitcoin, and then you've got the practical application or distribution of that, and this is where I think the- The legal system will have a huge amount of, well, it'll have to evolve fairly quickly because what you've got is you need to marry up not only the legal framework for distributing your Bitcoin, but the practical implementation of that, and that's where you have a very, a very unique thing that happens in the distribution of assets upon a death that is totally unique to Bitcoin. If you look at the other assets that get passed, you've typically got property, you've got commodities, you might have, you might have a whole bunch of stocks, you've got- But all types of different property, and you might have some bonds. Now, in legal claims over those assets, there is always an authority to appeal. So if something doesn't go your way or the assets can't be found for whatever reason, you can literally appeal to an authority. You can appeal to a land and titles office, you can appeal to a share, share registry, and basically say, \"Hey, those are meant to be mine. Can you just rename those in my name and basically transfer them to me?\" And it's, it's all good. The problem with Bitcoin occurs is, is that You have no appeal to authority. If you don't have the keys and you're self-casating, then that represents a huge problem for you as the beneficiary, for the executor, and for anyone who's administering the will. So for the first time, and this is what's really interesting from a legal perspective, these lawyers have no authority to appeal to to just transfer the ownership of the Bitcoin because being an immutable ledger and not your keys, not your coins, there's no one that we can go to, no authority we can just say, \"Oh, look, it was meant to be in this name Can we just backdate that ledger and put it in this name, not the other, and it's like, that's not how this thing works. So there are some really severe consequences, and, you know, we've talked about this over the years, like the, the accountability and responsibility in self-custody brings a completely new dimension to, you know, the whole probate and process of death and transfer of assets. But I think a lot of Bitcoiners really need to be up to speed and ahead of where their legal team is on this, because the legal team won't be able to solve the cryptography problem of the practical transfer of those assets, and that's one of the things that terrifies me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:25", "start": 985.35, "text": "Right, I see, yeah. And so, I guess just the terminology, if you could just quickly explain for listeners, maybe they're not familiar, what's an executor, what's a beneficiary, what, what are some of these just terms that you could, help explain?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "16:37", "start": 997.26, "text": "Great. So an executor is when your, your affairs, and that is typically an executor which you appoint in your will. The executor's typically someone close to you that, you trust to basically handle your affairs and distribute your assets in a way that you see fit. It can be your lawyer, it could be a good friend, it could be your accountant, it could be your financial advisor, it could be one of a number of people, but typically the prerequisite for that is someone that you trust implicitly to carry out your wishes as you see them. Now, the beneficiaries is really simple, that's just who's basically getting the goodies. So who's actually going to be receiving or inheriting your assets upon death? Is it gonna be your wife? Is it gonna be your partner? Is it gonna be your children? You might not have children, you might wanna leave it to a charitable donation or foundation that you wanna support and see do good work. It could be a number of different, different things, and this is the beauty and the flexibility of basically creating a will, is that you get to determine who's gonna benefit from, you know, all your holding." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:37", "start": 1056.86, "text": "Great. And so with regard to the cryptography component of it, right? The key, not your keys, not your coins. The big challenge, as I'm sure you are very familiar with, This idea of how can the hodler retain unilateral access to his coins, but also give access to the executor, in this case, to distribute those coins to his heirs or to his wife or whoever, or to the charity? How do you sort of square that circle? How do we thread this needle of not, you know, holding the keys, but also having them accessible in the event of, let's say, if the hodler dies or is inc-incapacitated, right? Because it's not just dying, he could be incapacita-incapacitated in some way." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "18:18", "start": 1098.3, "text": "That's the thing a lot of people don't remember, is that, you know, you don't have to die to lose control of your Bitcoin. You might have bumped your head, you might have had a whole host of things that can go wrong. And this is, you raise a really difficult point that a lot of Bitcoiners, I don't think, have spent enough time and attention on, because I, I basically spend my day to day thinking about this problem, and it's a problem I've spent the last six or seven years basically trying to solve for clients, that, you know, you look You can have that set up in a, basically a self-custody single-sig wallet where you might do a Shamir secret sharing, where you basically distribute the words across multiple different places, geographically distributed, it might be in multiple different places, and then that brings in the, the concern around who are you going to trust to actually rebuild that Shamir secret sharing in a sufficient fashion that will then transport those bitcoins or send those bitcoins to where you want them to go. So, I mean, Shamir secret sharing is a great way to do- And I think it's, it's been a, a go-to for a number of people over the years. The interesting thing I look at, and which is what we've done for clients for probably the last three years, maybe a little bit longer, which solves that, and it's kind of in a similar vein to that is effectively a multi-sig collaborative custody arrangement, whereby you can have multiple keys distributed to multiple parties, and those parties don't need to know about each other, but you just need to have a single document that you can basically- access to basically get in contact with those people who hold multiple keys to basically bring together and rebuild that multisig and then transfer it to whatever type of structure that you wanna see. And, and this is where I think the multisig for me in a collaborative format solves a lot of issues post-death And I know it's not a popular way to do this, but the, the best way I've seen to do this is, is in a collaborative custody, whereby typically we might set up an account with Unchained or Casa or Nunchuck or it might be whatever platform they want to use, and the beauty of that is, is that These guys are absolute experts in that multi-sig arrangement, and they have, they hold a key for the client. It's their account, they hold a key as nunchuck or unchained or whatever that might be. We personally set up a single, single key for the client, so they have control of a single, single sig, and then we hold a default key for them that if they mess up everything that we do, if they literally walk out the room and die, then most importantly, we can recover that Bitcoin for their family, for their estate, for their beneficiary. And that's the trade-off we've made, and, you know, there's no solutions, only trade-offs in Bitcoin, sadly, and this is something that we've had to get comfortable with, that, you know, from a Bitcoin Maxi perspective, we don't think it satisfies 100% from a Bitcoin Maxi perspective, because it's not 100% ownership of your keys. It's probably 95% of the way there in solving that, not your keys, not your coins, because you've got basically big reputations in all of those companies that I just mentioned Been doing it for, you know, a number of years now. That gets us, I think, the best way to solving the problem which you raised when we first started talking about this is how do you share a secret from the grave? Because that's fundamentally what you're doing with those twenty-four words. It's, there's a level of trust that's required at some point in time if you're not here. And one of the things that I think is the hardest thing to do is, and one of the things we wanna take our clients through is, we wanna show them that this process and protocol basically works without their involvement. And when they can see that process work without their involvement, there's a level of pressure that's taken off their shoulders that they think, \"Oh my goodness, I can actually see something working without my involvement, and I've got all of the-- that they're comfortable with the trade This is something that I think multi-seg, and this is where I'm really excited about what multi-seg brings to the party and the upgrades with Taproot and the rest of it. This brings a whole level of custodianship that I think is going to help enable or help move the, self-custody adoption from, say, the half a percent right the way through to ten or twenty percent of the, the population will now be able to comfortably and confidently self-custody. And this is where I think it's really important that we grow that self-custody pie because from Perspective, probably my major driver in, in seeing this happen is I would love to see every coin off the exchange. Now, from a selfish point of view, I would love to see what these, these exchanges do when there are no bitcoins on there. Now, then we're gonna see real price discovery, right? So then we're cooking with gas. You know, January three, get your coins off exchange, like, this is what I wanna see. And I think multi-sign in a collaborative format helps give people confidence to self-custody when they otherwise wouldn't, and it opens up a whole New market, to self-custody in Bitcoin that I don't think has been addressed yet, and this is where I'm really excited for the guys who work at all of these multi-seg companies that I think they've got a pile of clients that are gonna come down the road that actually see this as an easier, safer way to self-custody than holding a single-seg wallet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:25", "start": 1405.24, "text": "Right, and I think so, yeah, and this is something many companies are looking at. I know even, even at Swan, there is a, you know, Swan Vault kind of product that That the team will be coming out with something like this, but as you said, the idea is having a collaborative multi-signature provider who maybe holds one key, and let's say, in this case, the hodler holds one key, and in, in, in, in, in a two-of-three setup, maybe their advisor holds that third key. So maybe that's one way to do it. There are other ways that it could be done. Maybe, maybe it's like a three-of-five and they're holding two keys, you know, there, there are kind of different aspects of how" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:09", "start": 1448.69, "text": "but there's a trade-off that's being made there around giving that person a little bit more confidence that the keys and the coins will make it to their heirs or beneficiaries. And I think, as you mentioned, having it in multi-sig across different institutions still really helps because now that concern around paper Bitcoin and fractional reserve is being mitigated because if you can see your coins or see those coins on chain or, you know, you can see that output there You know it hasn't been rehypothecated because that's, that's all there is, and as soon as, you know, it, it has to move, that's it. There's no rehypothecation, or at least it's stopping that rehypothecation. So I think that's an interesting point. And so I think it's also interesting just to chat a little bit about where you're seeing the space in terms of as you survey, let's say, the landscape and you look at accountants, lawyers, advisors out there, how Bitcoin savvy are they A bit more Bitcoin savvy, interested in Bitcoin, but what's the state of play, you know, just out there generally? I," }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "25:14", "start": 1514.37, "text": "I think it's a passing interest at the moment, and particularly in light of a two-year bear market, there is very little interest from any professionals wanting to get involved in this, and this is where I think for the professionals who are making a name for themselves in this space, there, there is going to be a huge retention and, effectively knowledge gap for them to basically bridge for their other counterparts in their professions. I, I look at from- The, the industries that we work with, we work with financial advisors, we work with lawyers, and, you know, we work with, investment advisors as well and accountants, and I look at that and I think the accounts are slowly getting up to speed because there are, you know, they basically have to account for it and they want to account for it on a, on a decent way, and it's very, interesting seeing them try to wrap their heads around basically, you know, basically transaction information that's been taken off the block and just thrown It's very different to what they're used to, but what's interesting is from a, you know, from an immutable perspective and from a confirmation of trust, that information that they get there is way more trustworthy than any of the numbers that they get, from anything else. And, you know, a joke I love to share, which, you probably might appreciate, is, how do you know if you've got a good accountant? Ask them what one plus one is, if they're any good, they'll look behind them, shut the blind, and then they'll whisper gently in your ear, \"What, what do you want it to be?\" And that basically is the problem with the accounting system that we've got at the moment, the double-entry ledger, which I think back to Bitcoin and the beauty of it, the immutable ledger, and a triple-entry ledger system is going to solve a whole host of those problems, that there's going to be a lot less fudging that we can do with the numbers because it's- It's a far superior form of accounting. But back to the point around what does, what do the changes mean? I think there are some very, forward-thinking professionals in the space. I know we deal with a number of estate planners in the space, we deal with some accountants and, other investment advisors, and they're trying to actively pursue this and understand it because they see the opportunity that's coming, they just don't have any resources to draw on for, for the product or professional development. So that, that's probably a bit of a missing gap for- For helping other professionals get into the space, there's just a huge amount of hard work and hard slog that you've basically got to, you know, stub your toe on, make all the mistakes yourself before there's a, a learning curve. There's no manual for any of these professions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:39", "start": 1658.79, "text": "Yeah, and even when it comes to things like Bitcoin competence, right? Understanding how a multi-sig works, understanding how, a hardware wallet or a hardware signing device works, or understanding maybe if you've got a twenty-four word seed, but it's a part of a multi-sig and that is only" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:56", "start": 1675.94, "text": "Able to sign, that transaction. So things like that, I'm sure there's a lot of learning that has to take place over time, especially in the case of that executor who's having to execute this stuff and potentially the professionals, whether they're legal, accounting, tax advisor professionals who are guiding and maybe even in, depending on the situation, they're maybe holding a key in this as well. Also," }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "28:20", "start": 1700.18, "text": "there's a learning curve that needs to happen, and this is where I think partnering with professionals in this space is really important. Particularly, the transfer of death and one thing that's really unique and speaking from experience, you know, proud but sad at the same time that, you know, we've overseen basically the transfer of three estates now from death to, to their beneficiaries, and there has been some great stories around that. Professionally, I'm really proud to say that we haven't lost a single Bitcoin with the protocol that we've put in place. So a collaborative multi-seek custody whereby Unchained holds a key, the client holds a key, and we hold a key. Has worked absolutely seamlessly, there's been zero loss, and there, there've been a couple of funny stories, and I might just talk in hypotheticals, 'cause I'm not allowed to talk about clients, but, you know, many moons ago, you, you came and helped us with a whole host of things, and one of those clients has sadly passed away, but we were able to safely transfer those bitcoins from this person, who happened to be about, mid-eighties, to, to their children, and a funny thing happened when we were basically going through the process, we managed them to, to the client, and at the same time, I looked at their asset allocation and realized sixty percent of their investable assets were invested in Bitcoin, and I was shocked. I was like, \"Oh, I didn't quite realize it was that high.\" And when I went to the children to say, \"Hey, just wanna let you know we're probably a little bit overweight in Bitcoin, should we reweight the portfolio and do that?\" And one thing I need to thank you for with your work because, you know, you helped educate them they turned around and said, \"No, we're really comfortable with waiting, we don't need to readjust anything.\" So I've gotta say I was so happy, you know, it saved a whole host of things, but the transition was seamless, and the transition would have been seamless with or without their hardware device, if we had it or not, we could have got that to them, and we've had multiple experiences where clients have walked out the door, I've said, \"Be really careful with this key, be really careful with your seed words, lock them up in a safe And you know, treasure them because it's really important, and literally a month later, we've had a client call and say, \"I've lost the words, I've lost my device, have I lost my Bitcoin?\" And I can report with hand on heart, so happy about this. I said to the client, \"No, but you need to come in as quickly as possible, 'cause we're down to two keys, and I'd never want a client in that position that they're reliant on the two keys.\" So we got the client in as quickly as possible. They were very grateful that they hadn't lost that, because there was- Basically millions of dollars on the line, and I think the comment came back with, \"You know, I'm so happy, I think I would have had a divorce, my wife would have divorced me if I hadn't lost a million dollars sitting on that single device.\" So this is where I've, I've got to say, from, you know, doing this for years, the experience I've seen in how little attention some people can pay to that, you know, that hardware device and the redundancies that are built in with a collaborative custody arrangement. It's not for the hardcore Bitcoiners who wanna have It's a, it's ninety-five percent of the way there, and it's probably the best solution that I've found to basically ensure that you can transfer your Bitcoin to your beneficiaries." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:28", "start": 1888.41, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show is also brought to you by Plan B Forum Lugano. So for those of you who don't know, Lugano is a city in Switzerland, and they are taking on Bitcoin adoption. They have real adoption with hundreds of places where you can spend Sats over the Lightning Network. So they've got a forum or a conference coming up, October twentieth and twenty-first. This forum Host awesome speakers like Nick Zabo, Adam Back, Paolo Arduino, Prince Philip, Jukka Muzuka, Mike Peterson from Bitcoin Beach, and many more. There will be a main stage, a Lightning and peer-to-peer stage, as well as masterclasses where Bitcoiners can learn skills relating to self-custody, multisig, setting up your Lightning or Bitcoin node, and there'll also be an art gallery. As I mentioned, it's real adoption. There are hundreds of places around town, whether that's cafes, restaurants, bars, and more. So book your tickets over at planb.lu Plan B Forum, October twentieth and twenty-first. When I go to send an on-chain transaction, I check mempool dot space to target the fee for my transaction, and this allows me to make sure that I'm setting an appropriate fee rate. Bitcoin is growing beyond a single layer into a fully fledged multi-layer ecosystem, and mempool dot space helps you see and explore that ecosystem from the mempool to the blockchain to second layer networks like the Lightning Network. And with mempool dot space, you don't have to trust a third party. It's free and open source software. You can host it yourself with one click on some of the full node distributions like Umbrel and Raspiblitz and more. Mempool will be coming out with a transaction accelerator in the coming months, so keep an eye out for more information on that and go check it all out over at mempool dot space. And now back to the show. Yeah, that's really interesting, and I think perhaps in the future, now this is something actually I can share, I recently was at BTC Prague and I was chatting with some of the guys from the company known as Revolt, but they've got a product called Liana, and this is using an advanced Bitcoin technology called Miniscript, and there's potential here, and this would be very interesting for you in the future as well, is using Miniscript, it will be possible to put in even more advanced conditions, such that the hodler, the user It can be full self custody and there can still be a sort of recovery pathway in the future. Now, I should disclose, as part of Bitcoin Adventures, we did invest in, that company, but I think just broadly about Miniscript, it can enable more advanced scripting with that multisig. So as an example, we can do all kinds of things like, okay, let's say you and I were in a business together, Peter, we could set up a two of two for spending, but after six months of us not spending, it becomes a two of three And let's say the board, the director of the board has a key and he can sign in the case that you and I don't agree, right? Or there's like this idea of a kind of a deep recovery key. So you could have it so that, let's say, it's normally a two of three or two of two or normally, you know, i-in our full self custody or the hodler's self custody, but if it's not been spent for ten years, then and only then can the provider have this kind of \"I forgot my password\" functionality. And so- Maybe it will sort of help thread the needle. Now, to be clear, this is very early, it's very techie, it's, you know, extremely early stuff, but I think if we were to fast forward five or ten years' time, this might be a lot more commonplace and take it even to the next level." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "34:54", "start": 2093.53, "text": "I, I think you're right on that, and I've talked to a number of different teams. I think I've got to call in with those guys because what I find really interesting is from a, basically a term we call in estate planning, ruling from the grave, with the testamentary trust, you can basically issue a legal mandate that, as part of the trust, you're only allowed to draw an income from the trust, and you're allowed to take one percent in the first year, two percent in the second year, three percent, and you can literally stage, you can rule Now, that's up for legal contest when it's in the will. However, if you programmatically, cryptographically secure it with VidiScript There's no discussing, there's no debate, it just is what it is, and that beneficiary then has no legal recourse because even if there is legal recourse to it, there's no cryptographic recourse to it. The blockchain doesn't recognize" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:46", "start": 2145.97, "text": "the legal authority, let's say." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "35:49", "start": 2148.61, "text": "Correct. Correct, that's exactly right. So there are just so many wonderful things coming down the road with the programmatic, being able to program Bitcoin that from a estate planning perspective and being able to basically plan out how people are gonna spend Bitcoin in the future or how they're gonna inherit it, there's no other asset on earth that comes close to it, and this is where, you know, my day to day is basically dealing with high net worth families and how to secure that wealth into the long term. Once they really understand, like the broader, you know, high net worth families And how powerful a tool this is, that no other asset can deliver these sorts of things that Bitcoin can, game's over. Like there'll be a much high percentage of people that think that. Yeah, I think that's totally" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:28", "start": 2188.12, "text": "right. I think for a lot of people that can be a hang-up. I've heard this is a common thing as well, even from customers and just people in general, that there are people who maybe they are hesitant to self-custody their coins because of some of these considerations, and because of that reason they just think, \"Oh, I'd rather trust somebody else.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:49", "start": 2208.95, "text": "Not your keys, not your coins. We want you to be self-sovereign. You should self-custody, and of course, you know, I do. Anyone who can self-custody, you should. I, I definitely, you know, I say that, but I'm just recognizing the reality that there are a lot of these high-net-worth people who aren't comfortable with that until maybe the technology and the security and the safety of this stuff is improved, and maybe that comes with further miniscript adoption and development and technology, and part of that is also the legal aspects and the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:19", "start": 2238.89, "text": "And creating products and services around this kind of thing, as you have, so do, yeah, do you wanna, I guess, tell us a little bit about the journey that they, that a customer would go on if they're trying to set this up with you, just so people understand, like, what does it look like in practice?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "37:34", "start": 2254.45, "text": "Well, I'll, I'll, I'll take you on a journey. There, there are two types of journey. There is a journey for a seasoned Bitcoiner who understands exactly what we're doing and how we're doing it, which I have great joy in basically delivering because once they see all the built-in redundancies and backups that we've got, it takes a huge amount of pressure off their shoulders, and particularly if they've been operating outside of that multi-seg and a single-seg environment. But from a client who is completely new, and this is something I'm really proud of, that I Anyone else on Earth does, literally, is that we have the ability to take a client who is completely new to Bitcoin, has no Bitcoin whatsoever, and set up an account for them, set up an unchained account, help them buy Bitcoin, set up a hardware wallet, and literally set up a multi-sig vault that they have full control over and they can have Bitcoin in there within an hour. And this is something that I'm really proud of because it's a far better solution than leaving Bitcoins on exchange. It gets us probably ninety-five percent of the way there to Satisfying that, you know, Bitcoin Maxi Puritan type thing, and I haven't met a Bitcoin Maxi yet who thinks that that is a worse idea than leaving it on the exchange, and then that gets people really deep down the rabbit hole really quickly, and clients either- Are happy just saying that it's all looked after, and or alternatively, it sparks a curiosity for them that they want to understand, well, what's this multi-sig, what's this hardware wallet, how does this work, what are the consequences of doing X, Y, and Z, and they can start playing with it. But our clientele are typically much older, so they need a lot of handholding to get through that, and it literally might take an hour or two to get all of that set up in Bitcoin in there. But the beauty of that is it gives them confidence that they're working with Haven't lost a Bitcoin, so most importantly, they know they're not gonna lose their Bitcoin because everyone's heard the stories of, you know, the guy basically throwing his out, throwing out his hardware drive in England and basically trying to pay a rubbish tip sixty-four million dollars to recover three hundred million pounds in Bitcoin. Those sorts of things don't happen. And, you know, particularly in light of what's happening with Binance, which is quite topical, it's the thirteenth of May, two thousand and twenty-three. We've got, you know, the SEC's, reviewing and One of the world's largest, so the two largest exchanges on earth are basically in legal proceedings with the US, Securities Commission, and this self custody and a multi-seg basically gets clients out of the way of any regulatory framework that they could basically fall under, and it helps them self-custody. So it's a much better outcome, I believe, than what's available at the moment. Right. Yeah. So, sorry," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:14", "start": 2414.08, "text": "thirteenth of June, not May, right? But, yeah, that's certainly a good point, yeah. But no, that's correct. And Out of the blast zone, right? The radius of these exchanges that can get shut down or custodians that can basically screw you over, whereas if you are in a collaborative custody or some kind of multi-sig context and you're self-custodying, you're just, you're just miles away, you're miles out of there, and so that's really interesting. I think it might be interesting as well just to talk a little bit about legal approaches around the world, right? Because obviously you and I are both Australian, but how does it work in, let's say, other big Countries around the world like the US, like the UK, or others." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "40:55", "start": 2454.62, "text": "From a client perspective, how do we do that? Or how would a multi-six level of trust? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess, yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:00", "start": 2459.54, "text": "I mean, just in terms of the legal aspects, are there legal differences that change how you have to operate this, or is it essentially the same kind of operating model regardless of what legal, you know, environment they're operating in, framework" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "41:14", "start": 2474.43, "text": "is? from my experience, and we've basically got calls into the US, the UK, Europe, we look after the US, the UK, Europe now. We've got clients in Portugal, Asia, Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, and Australia, so it's basically global. But when you look at how this is set up and what, what is the service? It's delivered, it's effectively a technical service. So despite the fact that I've got a financial background and an Australian financial services license, we've gone through all of the licensing regime with our compliance team to look at, well, what type of financial product are we actually delivering advice on here? And without giving any asset recommendations about, hey, you need to have, five or ten or fifty percent weighting to Bitcoin, which is something we don't really get into, that basically lives outside the financial framework and the regulatory guidelines from a financial- financial product perspective. So in Australia, there's no legal framework for giving advice on Bitcoin because it's not classified as a financial product. In the UK, that's a similar thing. In the US, it's not a financial product, we've seen the CFTC basically designate it as a commodity, so it doesn't skirt that. And then when you are setting up a collaborative custody arrangement, if we were to have control of two of the three keys, then that represents a very different model. That effectively, you need to be a custodian. You need to have all of the, you need to submit to all of the rules and regulatory requirements that a custodian would have to, submit to in any of the designations that they wanna play in. But when you're only holding one of the three keys, you have no control over that, so there's no way in, well, there's no legal way, there's no possible way for me to control those bitcoins. So by default, we have no control of that, so we're not a custodian. What we are is effectively a default backup key, and we've set up a protocol that, you know, part of the reason of, you know, wanting to talk to you is to share that protocol that we think can help improve clients' outcomes, and this is something we'd love to help with if, you know, they're not capable of looking after it, but we wanna share this with the world 'cause this is basically six or seven years giving advice on Bitcoin for high net worth families, this is the best we've come up with to help transfer wealth to the next generation, and, you know, for all the Bitcoiners who are here now, you've put in a huge Early, and it'd be a shame not to capitalize on that if you don't secure the transfer to your beneficiaries. So that's part of the process of what we're doing. Yeah. And just from a" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:44", "start": 2623.89, "text": "legal perspective, you mentioned the testamentary trust, does that change in across jurisdictions, or is it like a different entity or different kind of, vehicle that's being used in other jurisdictions, or is it essentially, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "43:56", "start": 2635.85, "text": "Absolutely. So the US has got a whole host of things that you can use. You can use, an irrevocable, living trust, I Basically put assets in a trust now, and that can be for the benefit of your future generations that you've got full control over until you, you pass away, which is a great way of doing it. Again, there are some legal, carve-outs that effectively help protect you in the event that you have a divorce if you've claimed that legal trust. It depends on which state you are. Louisiana was the worst state to, to be in because that's based on French, French common law, not British common law. you've also got some, I think in the Western states, you've also got some, Spanish influence on the, the legal frameworks there, particularly California, the rest of it, obviously with the connection to Mexico. So, the testamentary trust in Australia, they work really well, but under basically all, all British law, basically has that foundation or some, some inkling to that. So I would suggest having, if-- depending on what jurisdiction you're in, have a chat to an estate planner in that and ask for the equivalency of a testamentary trust to be set up that would protect protect you and give you those, those protections and, and tax advantages. Right. And so for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:09", "start": 2709.03, "text": "listeners who aren't familiar with the inheritance taxes, could you just give a rough overview what that looks like around the world? I know obviously I'm, you don't have to give every country, but just for major countries, what does inheritance tax look like?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "45:23", "start": 2723.14, "text": "It's rough, it's really rough, I've got to say, like depending on where you are. Let's start with the US, 'cause that's the biggest market, and, you know, I love the US, but, you know, I've heard, you know, that the US has, some form of Death duties to the tune of forty percent. That's a big whack to pay on the way out the door. so if you're inheriting something from, you know, from your father or from your mother or other, some other loved one, you know, the government could take a forty percent clip of that straight off the top. So if you've got ten bitcoins, you end up with six. That's That's a real kick, that's a real kick in the guts. Like, that's, that's really hard. You look across to UK and Europe, they've got similar death taxes. ironically, Australia is a great place to die. We've got zero," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:05", "start": 2765.41, "text": "no inheritance tax," }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "46:06", "start": 2766.31, "text": "zero death duties, and, another great place to die, and this is so morbid, I can't believe we're laughing about it, but a great place to die is New Zealand as well. So, you know, despite being, you know- Queen of the lockdowns and all that, it's, it's a great place to die 'cause there's no inheritance tax there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:23", "start": 2783.44, "text": "Interesting. Yeah, and, yeah, I guess it, this can all change, like there'll be, there might be changes along the way, and even, who knows, right? In some countries there may be wealth taxes or even worse, unrealized gains taxes, you know? So even that's something to worry about on the way there. And then some of these countries will have it a tax even, you know, you've been paying taxes all the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:46", "start": 2805.78, "text": "way so that's unfortunate." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "46:50", "start": 2810.0, "text": "It's horrible, and this is where, you know, there's a tax arbitrage going on right now. You know, you look at, you know, there's a whole host of expats leaving Australia because they can live a, you know, live a, a quality life overseas, pay very little tax. Our tax rate in Australia is forty nine and a half percent, you know, on a person. That's, you know, that's quite big. We don't get a lot of incentives, there's not a lot of things to write off, and," }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "47:18", "start": 2837.58, "text": "Of ten or fifteen percent tax, that's far more appealing than, you know, a fifty percent tax rate. And then there's capital gains tax to pay on that as well. I think what, what's apparent to me is, you know, we need to be vigilant from an advice perspective that, you know, it's very clear to me that the governments are running out of money and they're running out of options, and an easy low-hanging fruit for them to basically claim is an inheritance tax of rich people. Oh, let's just tax them fifty percent, they don't need it, they didn You know, who's really gonna cry for, you know, someone who's inheriting fifty million instead of a hundred? It's an easy sell to the, to, to the public, but it sets a very slippery slope that the public doesn't realize that if they're in that state, the, the government finances in, in a shocking way. So, Basically, your beneficiaries can basically, shop jurisdictions on where they wanna accept their inheritance, and that might lead to a better outcome. So you might become a New Zealand resident for a year and basically pick up a tax-free inheritance." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:18", "start": 2897.95, "text": "Interesting idea there. and also I had a couple comments, in, who were saying, \"You've gotta ask Peter.\" This one, this one's for the Moon Boys, so, they wanna know about Peter, but they wanna know your thoughts on where you think Bitcoin is going, in terms of valuation. you're known for being, an uber ball, so can you give us a little bit of an overview there?" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "48:40", "start": 2919.94, "text": "Would you like the number or would you like the framework? I prefer to talk about the framework." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:44", "start": 2924.23, "text": "I think the framework is a better, discussion piece." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "48:48", "start": 2927.85, "text": "Great. Well, the framework I'm much happy to talk about, 'cause I don't like talking about the number, 'cause it, it seems quite insane to tell you the truth, but let me just set the, the framework for, firstly, if everyone understood just how bad property, bonds, and stocks were and how much risk was residing in those relative asset classes, Bitcoin would be tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars right now. There, there is, there are so many problems in those asset classes I can't begin to tell you, and we'd need a whole hour at least to discuss just one of those. But if we look at the framework for what Bitcoin is, and, you know, this has been a study in money for me for a long time, I've been involved in accounting and finance at university, been in credit markets, my job is literally to mitigate risk, and you look at what Bitcoin is, and fundamentally, I think it's a, a function of money, and you look at those three functions of Of account, what makes the money. Interestingly, and I don't see a lot of this talked about, but I think the key innovations that pertain to those three functions of money from Bitcoin's, you know, tech innovation perspective is absolute digital scarcity of twenty-one million, which we're all familiar with, seizure resistance, which is a novel thought and it's only been available since Bitcoin's been invented because up until now, a five-dollar wrench attack basically got you everything that person had because either they were holding it or- One person, or alternatively, there was an appeal to authority that you just took it from. So this is a very unique concept, seizure resistance, and, you know, I'm, I'm not sticking up for Russia here, but I bet they, they really understood Bitcoin prior to having their five hundred billion in foreign reserves held or frozen, I'd call that seized. But then you look at the second or third innovation with, you know, tech innovation with Bitcoin has been the censorship resistance, you know, that is a huge improvement on what we've currently got. Anyone who subscribes to the network Can basically place a transaction or make a communication, a message on the system which we abstract to a dollar value. Now, you know, I was particularly concerned about the disregard for the rules and laws that have been in place when the Canadian truckers basically protested, and I thought they were within their rights to do that. They may have overstepped the mark, but I thought what was an egregious overstep of, you know, the governments there was without any due process, they basically froze the, the trucker's bank accounts. Now, the whole Western democ- Democracies are built upon the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around. So I was particularly disturbed seeing that the governments were basically happy to flood process on the proviso that they thought terrorists were gonna take over the country. I thought that this is a really slippery slope that I don't want to see because, you know, it was convenient for Canadian truckers, but what happens when it's, you know, mums complaining about something? You know, it's a very different slippery slope. So censorship resistant is a big, big deal. And then the final one, which I think on this for a little while because, you know, we've both got somewhat of an accounting background is the immutable ledger supply and issuance. Now, it gets no love because it's a really boring topic and accounts aren't known for being the life of the party, but this is where the, the, the real value in Bitcoin lies, is that in an immutable ledger, it opens up things that we haven't thought about. So, when you think about those four key innovations and how that applies to Bitcoin and the functions of money, store of value basically gets an upgrade on gold because It's, absolute digital scarcity and it's seizure resistant, so that is unequivocally better than gold. So it should be at least, ten to fourteen trillion dollar market cap, depending on the day. For medium exchange, it gets an upgrade on the US dollar that we're currently using, which is a hundred trillion dollar market, give or take, depend on the day. You've got, censorship resistant, which is a huge thing, and then you've got an immutable issuance and supply, so you know exactly what's coming and when it's coming, which is much better than, you know, the forty percent increase in the M2 money supply that we've seen in the last, you know, two or three years. Like, on top of that, we've seen a six or seven percent decrease Trying to determine an economic, economic system with that type of volatility, so it's an improvement on medium exchange. And then the final one, the grand one, which I think holds the, the most value is your unit of account. Basically, Bitcoin represents an upgrade on the double-entry ledger technology that we're using at the moment. That's basically five hundred years old from the Venetians. Basically, we haven't had any upgrades to accounting in the last five hundred years, so this represents a triple-entry ledger system. It represents an immutable ledger that can't be changed, and we've got a- And immutable supply and issuance that goes across with that as well, and all of a sudden this expands, I think, the ability of unit of account to account for a whole lot more than what it does, or it expands it pie dramatically. And where I think Bitcoiners have probably not thought about this from a market perspective is that For the first time in history, and I call Bitcoin the first triple point asset. So in thermodynamics, the triple point is when in a beaker of glass, you have, say, water sitting there, but under certain pressure, under certain temperatures, you get not only water, but you can have ice and you can have steam all in the one beaker at the one time. And so I call Bitcoin the first triple coin asset because you have basically with an immutable supply and absolute digital scarcity, it's a pressure that basically gets put on the money that you have all three forms or functions of money in one asset at the same time. And what's unique about this is, is that you've got Bitcoin is the best store of value, it's the best medium of exchange, and it's the best unit of account. And now this is a revolution in historical terms that never before have we seen one asset dominate all Three functions of money, and so my contention is, rather than thinking about Bitcoin being a linear accretion of value whereby you take, ten billion market cap of gold, hundred trillion for meeting exchange in the US dollar, and I think unit of accounts running at two thousand trillion, but you put whatever numbers in you want to, most Bitcoiners are thinking about this, well, you add ten trillion plus a hundred plus two thousand, you get to two point one trillion dollars. Personally, after watching how, ironically, how people do crazy things when scarcity is basically, in play. I'll give you a quick example. I watched people lose their minds about three hundred meters from my office down there in Double Bay, Woolworths, when the toilet paper was running out. People were having physical fights when they thought that- Toilet paper was running out. Now, it was not gonna be on the shelves for two days, and people could have gone home and had a shower, used a bidet, used a leaf, used a tissue. There are multiple ways to basically work around no toilet paper, but people were getting in physical fights 'cause they thought it was It was scarce. Now, what happens when eight billion people realize that Bitcoin is absolute digital scarcity and they're all competing for one asset? This is where I think rather than thinking it's a linear accretion of value, I think it's more like store of value multiplied by medium of exchange multiplied by unit of account, and Bitcoin can hold an infinite value. So all of a sudden, people are gonna really understand that this thing is worth way more than we can, we can possibly" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:57", "start": 3356.92, "text": "imagine. Yeah, that's a fantastic framework, and I think- Really, people should take it seriously, this idea of it's, you know, it's starting, it's a digital property, right? Like Michael Saylor says, but over time, it's going to evolve into so much more, and it's, it's going to be a, an everyday currency that we'll use, and as you say, it will be the unit of account. And so for those of us who are thinking ahead, we value our net worth in Bitcoin terms, and we are serious about planning for the future, because, right? If you believe, if you truly believe Bitcoin's Account of the world someday, maybe not today, you know, it might be decades, we don't know. I guess it behooves all of us to really take it seriously and plan so that our children can actually receive this asset rather than it, being a, a donation to the network, as Satoshi famously said. So, let's conclude with a few actionable pieces of advice. Do you have any key insights or key points that you wanna make sure if the, if the note takers one thing they took away, what's the key piece of advice or insight that you would" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "57:00", "start": 3419.77, "text": "I, I think if, if I could ask everyone listening to this podcast to do an exercise, if they can ask their loved one or their most trusted, hand them a piece of paper with a note on it saying, \"Please attempt to move my Bitcoin.\" Now, it's a scary thought, it's very daunting, and I don't wanna, you know, scare people, but by doing this simple exercise, you will understand if your estate plan is up to your death or not. And it's the most critical piece, and this is literally what I spend my time just- At that problem, please go and ask someone who, you know, is part of your plan to go and move your Bitcoin. Now, I don't want them to actually move it, I just want to see if they've got the capability of doing it, because then you can basically put everything aside and know that your estate plan is sorted if something were to happen to you today. And this is what I don't think a lot of people have actually done, is gone through the disaster recovery. Have they actually tested their estate plan as to the recovery of their Bitcoin? Have they literally handed it over? piece of paper to a loved one and said, \"Hey, I need you to move these bitcoins.\" Now, there are ways and means around doing this without actually showing them your stack, and I understand most bitcoiners don't wanna share that information, but it's really important that they understand the process of that and how they would actually do it, because, you know, I, I just think about all of the hard work that's gone on, you know, you've been in this space for ten years, you know, you've been doing this for, what is it, five, six, six" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:25", "start": 3505.4, "text": "years" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "58:28", "start": 3508.3, "text": "and, you know, I remember, you know, the early conversations we had and all the help you gave our clients, and I think all of us have worked so hard to be at this point. Please don't drop the ball over the line in football parlance. You've done all this work, all you need to do is put the ball down, make sure your estate plan's sorted, and if you want help, any guidance, there's, I might get in the show notes just left up there a comparison table that we put up in, for clients basically, all the things that" }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "58:58", "start": 3537.62, "text": "And say, \"Here's the things that we do and consider. Please go and rip this off and implement this in your own, in your own day to day. And if you're incapable or you don't wanna do that, then I'd love to help you. But, you know, like, everyone says, \"Not your keys, not your coin,\" so we wanna basically give that protocol to the world that, you know, hopefully it can bring peace of mind and secure those bitcoins for future generations. \" Well, I'll" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:20", "start": 3559.65, "text": "put all the links in the show notes, and it's thebitcoin I'll, I'll, hope to speak again with you soon and, thank you for sharing some, I think, very valuable insights for listeners because many of us don't wanna think about us dying or being incapacitated, but it's gonna happen someday to all of us. So let's, let's be serious about it and, let's be responsible about this. So, yeah, thank you, Peter." }, { "speaker": "peter_dunworth_is_a_financial_adviser_for_high_net_worth_individuals", "time": "59:48", "start": 3587.63, "text": "Appreciate your time. Thanks, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:50", "start": 3589.81, "text": "Show notes will be available at stephanelivera dot com slash four eight six and make sure to share this show with family and friends so they can learn a bit about Bitcoin estate planning. That's it from me. I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }