{ "episodeId": "SLP491", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "stephan_livera": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "guest", "tag": "STEPHAN" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.33, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics brought to you by Swan dot com. Have you wondered about the crossover between Bitcoin and nuclear energy? Today, nuclear Bitcoiner Ryan joins me to talk about Bitcoin and nuclear energy. We talk about a range of things around the updates in nuclear technology and energy. That most people probably aren't aware of unless they are following the industry more closely. We talk about SMRs, nuclear waste and safety concerns, and of course, nuclear energy and the crossover with Bitcoin mining. This show is brought to you by CoinKite dot com. As you know in Bitcoin, not your keys, not your coins. CoinKite make hardware products that make it easy for us to secure our coins using hardware devices, such as the TapSigner, which is a cheaper device using NFC, and you can tap to sign with apps such as Nunchuk. Chuck on your phone, all the way up to the Coldcard Mark IV, which is the latest and greatest that they offer, which offers far higher grade of security with multiple secure elements, more RAM, faster CPU, and it's an extremely reliable device that you can use in all kinds of configurations. You can just directly plug it to your computer and use it with Sparrow Wallet or Electrum or Specter Desktop, or you can use it in an airgapped mode with an SD card, and you can ferry that information back and forth between your Coldcard and your computer. So for those of you interested to upgrade your security with hardware devices, go to coinkite dot com and use the code Livera for a discount on your cold cards. For those of you in or near Europe, Plan B Forum Lugano is coming up October 20th and 21st. So as you might know, Lugano is a city in Switzerland, and they are taking on Bitcoin adoption. The mayor actually goes around talking about Bitcoin, and he can spend Bitcoin. You can see videos of him spending Lightning. So they've got an awesome forum, and it Coming up with awesome speakers like Nick Szabo, who is a legend in the space, and he will be speaking with an original new contribution about his work on Bitcoin and social scalability. There are a range of speakers coming, people like Adam Back and Paolo Arduino and so many more. There'll be a main stage, a Lightning and peer-to-peer stage, as well as masterclasses where you can learn skills about self-custody. And remember, with Lugano, they actually have hundreds of merchants in town that you can spend Lightning with, whether that is- cafe's, restaurants, bars, and more. So go to planb.luano.ch and find out more and mark it in your calendar for October 20th and 21st. And now onto the show with Nuclear Bitcoiner. Ryan, great to meet you and, and I'm interested to chat a little about it. I know you obviously go by the name Nuclear Bitcoiner, so do you wanna just tell us a little bit about that and what's in the name?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "02:53", "start": 173.26, "text": "I found myself in a niche right where nuclear power and Bitcoin intersect each other because as I started to learn about Bitcoin I thought it would be a really good idea to start mining Bitcoin with nuclear power because it is the most abundant and dense source of power that humanity's capable of harnessing thus far, and one of our greatest liabilities in the nuclear industry is that sometimes we generate so much power that it becomes a liability because there isn't enough customers to sell it to, then we end up with negative prices, curtailment, and any number of, yeah, just negative outcomes. And I'm pretty confident that Bitcoin mining can fill that space. Fantastic." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:31", "start": 210.71, "text": "Yeah, and I think that's probably, I think that's probably Probably the key point, isn't it? Yeah, that's it. It's interesting you mentioned that key point that because it overproduces, and I guess this is one of those concepts where I've read that just the way the electricity grid works is you can't overproduce, it all has to be matching, and I guess that's the key concept that you're getting out there. and we'll get into all of this as well, but, just curious, in terms of your professional background, are you working in that space or you came from that area or is" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "04:03", "start": 242.77, "text": "I've, I've been working in the nuclear research industry in Canada. I work at the Canadian Nuclear Laboratories. Like, I'm just a lab tech. I sit in the lab and I operate and maintain several chemical, analysis instruments that do an important- Job for the, like the can-do pressure tube surveillance program. So it's just we, we monitor the corrosion rates in the pressure tubes with the instruments that I have in my laboratory. But it also lends well to listening to podcasts while I work, 'cause I'm just keeping the machines on and making sure that they're running, and like, yeah, good fifty percent of my job I can be listening to a conversation in my ear while making the machines go. So then, yeah, I went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole early '21 after I had a wallet that I just had forgotten about years years ago that had a little bit in it, and now that was actually worth a substantial amount, so it was very exciting and got me interested in following further down the rabbit hole. And I recalled hearing about it discussed back in, like, yeah, the early days when it was, Occupy Wall Street stuff and The Creature of Jekyll Island was a common book that a lot of the people paying attention to the, financial crash were interested in understanding money and how it relates to everything that was going on. And, yeah, I never fully made the plunge and life went on And then I got into it around the same time that I was also starting to pay attention to the developments of small modular reactors and hearing significant momentum gaining just in the nuclear in general, in the public consciousness and how people are starting to be a little bit more receptive to the idea of nuclear power being a substantial, playing a substantial role in the energy transition that we are, that most of the world has embarked upon. And Yeah, I think it's just a much better shot to go with nuclear than it is to go with, to, to put our, put a lot of stake on being able to predict and in some cases, some people even think that they'll be able to control the weather. So I think that's a bit of a fantasy and we have to stick with what works and what we know works. And we know nuclear works, and I, yeah, I just wanna attach Bitcoin mining into it and just supercharge its capabilities to be able to deploy in scenarios that wouldn't have otherwise been feasible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:15", "start": 374.85, "text": "Great. And so for most listeners, maybe we're not-- obviously we're lay, layman here, and we're not really deeply having researched how nuclear works. So probably what most people are thinking is, \"Oh, nuclear is really expensive,\" or it's maybe the regulations are too heavy to justify nuclear in most countries. Countries around the world. So what would you say to that, to that person who's trying to understand, you know, how feasible, how viable is this with nuclear?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "06:43", "start": 402.65, "text": "Yes. At the beginning, they are very costly, 'cause a lot of capital expenses go into them, and pretty much when you build a nuclear reactor, you have to have everything accounted for, how you're going to pay for your fuel, and right down to recycling and decommissioning at the end of life or potentially life extensions if that is something that can be done with your reactor type, 'cause like right now in Ontario, we Of our fleet, it's going on schedule, it's on budget, and everything is going very well, and we expect to have everything back online by the early thirties. And now there's even more interest, Can-- Ontario just announced that we're gonna build a new site of, of four reactors likely at, the Bruce C facility, and that came out of nowhere, like nobody had any expectation that was even gonna happen until it was announced three days ago, and we're building SMRs, which are hoping to be able to mass produce them in A smaller s-at smaller size, but scale them by multiples so you'll be able to reduce the cost of individual reactors by just driving down that marginal, construction cost by, yeah, by mass producing them essentially. on the regulation side, that is tricky because like many people aren't familiar with the NRC and, America is very s- Slow moving and difficult to get approvals and construction licenses to build nuclear reactors. The reactor in Vogel, in Georgia, is the first reactor to be complete its construction in many decades in America, so that's a very exciting milestone that people are starting to rally around and use that as a momentum point to keep building forward. And, yeah, like regulations Are in the process of being updated to reflect better the, the modern paradigm of these new reactors that we are hoping to build in much larger amounts and deploy them and export them basically all over the world, which will be safer. The fuel types will be less, there'll be less risk of it being diverted for pro-proliferation, concerns. And I also think that if they're mining Bitcoin with it, they'll have a much stronger incentive to be generating power than be doing anything else with their, their uranium. So we'll see how that plays out in the game theory of the, of the future in this little niche we have here. And yeah, like it's, it, it's tricky 'cause the UAE, they also just built a large set of reactors with the collaboration with South Korea, so they, they, their regulation aligned up really well with their industry, and they got those reactors built. Like, yes, they do have like a top-down kind of command and control type, economy where they have, they're ruled by the, the, well, they're, the, what do you call them? The monarchs, I guess they're not. Yeah, I don't even know what they're called there" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:30", "start": 570.18, "text": "so I mean, I guess colloquially called the ruler, like to say, you know, for example, the ruler of Dubai or the, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, yeah, I mean, obviously there's a lot of, yeah, I mean, to be, to be clear, I haven't done a lot of research into the nuclear power that's been used here in the UAE, funnily enough, but I know there actually is, some mining happening in the UAE, so that's interesting, but I," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:00", "start": 599.74, "text": "What I've heard is called the generation three, reactors or like that bigger style of reactor versus what's happening now with the SMR. So what is an SMR? Why are they-- Why is that different? Why should, you know, people who don't really know what that is, can you give an overview there?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "10:14", "start": 614.17, "text": "Yeah, sure. The SMR is basically just a category of nuclear reactors that are built smaller than three hundred megawatts, and then they even fall into more subcategories of like the microreactors that are only going to be a few megawatts output to up to Being considered is four hundred megawatts, and that they're still calling that an SMR, 'cause it's, it's larger than the big traditional like eight hundred megawatt, fourteen hundred megawatt reactors that we're familiar with that are being built, like, still actively around the world right now. There's, I think, like twenty, twenty-two projects ongoing that will be expected to be completed at varying stages throughout the twenties. That's mostly happening with China and Russia, and then a, a few are happening elsewhere, but the SMRs are a new project that everyone's kind Because there's a race to get at least a few designs to the commercial stage by many different players in the nuclear space, the, all the countries that actively have nuclear programs. to get that market share. And so, like right now in Canada, we are proposing six different re-- or there's twelve altogether, but six have gotten to like the second stage of their licensing, and they've actively chosen locations where they're going to be built. They have a rough timeline of, like, the first one's late in the '27, '28, and then a few more early '30s will, will start to sprout up, and they'll be built in various places. Like, one of them's going to be out, the Bellad Coal plant in New Brunswick, and that's a large port there that they have, so they're going to mass produce these in a port, they're gonna power the port with these new reactors, and then they're also going to deploy them like throughout the rest of the, the province. And I believe this one's a hundred and hundred and twenty megawatt reactor, and it's also a new cooling type that isn't In like common use, they're just gonna use a, like a molten salt type of, fuel structure that's much different than the boiled water reactors that we're familiar with. Like this, this technology's been proven decades ago, but it just never went into commercial development because they, they chose one type of reactor, they got familiar with building one type of reactor, and the world got really good at building boiled water reactors and pressurized water reactors, so that's why we have them everywhere. But now there's a growing need to have a much wider range of applications. Nuclear power can apply to beyond just like one large static generating stor-station. We wanna be able to put these all over Northern Canada. Yeah, and just zooming" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:43", "start": 762.57, "text": "out a little bit on nuclear, like zooming out on nuclear in general, do you have any view on why development seems to have stalled? Relatively stalled in recent decades, that, you know, going back decades, there were so much, there was so much more nuclear development, nuclear power development. Is it because of the association with nuclear weapons? Is it because of, let's say, the big, obviously publicized, disasters like Chernobyl and Fukushima? Is it just, you know, uncertainty? Do, do you have any view on why there's been a relative stalling there, and now it seems the momentum is picking back up?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "13:20", "start": 799.95, "text": "All of the above, and there's been a very active- and vocal anti-nuclear movement that has a lot of money behind them that is basically been a thorn in the industry's side since its inception, and there was never really a strong pro-nuclear advocacy movement be-before just a few years ago, and now there's groups popping up all over the place that are promoting nuclear. Like one of the most active and prolific nuclear, like advocates is an influencer on TikTok named Isabel Bomaki, and she's a Brazilian model that just got interested in Nuclear power, and now she's done TED talks about it, she speaks about it, at events all over the place. She was at the NAYGN, annual conference that I was just at a few weeks ago, and it's- Fascinating to see that there is, and the youthful e-enthusiasm that is behind this movement because, because w-we've been kind of put into a state of fear by this hypothetical apocalypse that may or may not happen if the world reaches a tipping point, but it's, it's low probability, but it's being promoted as the dominant narrative, and it's really disrupting a lot of people's like- ability to even consider a positive future, and there's so many kids these days that just have this apocalypse like imprinted into their minds, and they don't see a way through this, but now it looks like there's finally some movements that Are getting behind something that they can actually believe will bring about a better future and a more abundant future for all of us, and it seems that a lot of them have rallied around nuclear as one of the key tools in doing that. So it's, very exciting time, like nuclear is back in a big way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:05", "start": 904.77, "text": "Yeah, that's great to hear, and I think it's an awesome thing, and we can even break down what's going on with SMR, s-small modular reactors, and the decrease in costs, the, as I understand, and you, you tell me, right, if you, you, you obviously know this more than I do, but my understanding is most of the nuclear reactors, as in the, let's call them the, the typical big scale ones, they're Almost like one of a kind reactors, and what we're trying to do, what the market is trying to do now with SMRs, is almost mass produce them and have them factory produced and have them as a very standardized unit that can be, you know, we can, we can churn them out, we can crank these units out there and put them in different locations, and we can bring the cost down and dramatically increase the accessibility. Is that, would you say that's a fair summary of what's happening? It's almost like we're, we're going into the era of, you know, maybe not Tomorrow, but soon this kind of mass production is possible of nuclear reactors." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "16:06", "start": 966.33, "text": "That's essentially the game plan. They want to build as many as they can, get as many options on the table that can cover as many applications where we can displace, like oil and gas and such like things like, like marine transportation, electricity generation, heat generation, we can displace a lot of that with nuclear power. Like, there's no realistic way that we're going to completely displace all of our needs for fossil fuels and hydrocarbons in various ways, but- Then we will also be capable of using them to do things like generating hy-hydrogen and then use that as a base, like feedstock chemical to produce like other higher order hydrocarbons, and that's when you get into the idea of synthetic fuels, and so that we can-- we'll be able to extract these elements, like hydrogen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen from the atmosphere and then be able to create our own like chemicals and fuels to do with what we will, and that will ultimately be a Net negative on carbon emissions, so like that will be a positive advancement instead of using, and then, but we can get there by using a lot of, like, we need a lot of the hydrocarbons that we have now to get us to that point. Like, we're still gonna need diesel-powered machines for a long time. Like, we're not just going to replace everything with electric right away and then just throw away all these perfectly well-functioning machines that could still have many decades worth of value that they can be extracted from them. So it's going to be kind of a- A really push and pull chicken and egg scenario where as we make some of these new advancements with nuclear, then we can start seeing how it's going to disrupt our needs for, like, using hydrocarbons in certain industries. But like you said, like we're still a good, like, five years before we start seeing the demonstration first of a kind units, and even then, we're still a good decades away from really reaching that end of a kind unit where the costs are really driven down and the expertise are like maximized, and we have full sup- Supply chains like from the fuel side, from just the construction side, just everything aligned perfectly. Like this is a multi-generational project that's being undertaken by the nuclear industry and- If we want to keep, humanity on the path that we've been on and growing and finding new ways to use this available energy to, advance into the stars and whatnot We, yeah, we're going to need all the power we need, we can get our hands on, and nuclear power's going to be a huge, play a huge role in all of that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:36", "start": 1115.93, "text": "Yeah, look, I think that's fantastic. I obviously, I have been quite vocal about my skepticism of the climate hysteric, so I don't necessarily buy their kind of the climate hysteric premise that, oh, we all need to like stop our fossil fuels or whatever, but at the same time, I'm very much pro-nuclear, I'd love to see it," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:57", "start": 1137.12, "text": "Balk a little bit when I was reading, I was seeing some of this narrative of, \"Oh, look, see, we can like reduce the carbon,\" and to me, it's not, it's not a hundred percent clear that that's a, you know, that we need that. but nevertheless, as we said, it's, it's-- there's some really great benefits that I can see, and I think in a really interesting point that I was seeing in some of the reading, is that historically we've, as an example, we've seen people City or energy, I believe. and the problem that I've seen with that is that it's like comparing them as though they're similar alternatives, but the problem with, let's say, unreliables, is that they're just, they're intermittent. It's not a good comparison. So I've seen numbers where, for example, solar, solar's capacity factor is something like seventeen percent, wind is like twenty-nine percent, and then nuclear is up here at ninety percent. So, what do you think about that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "19:52", "start": 1191.74, "text": "Yeah, it's definitely complicated, and if you speak to any Hate it. It makes their job way more difficult managing all of these disparate sources coming in from everywhere. They can just disappear at a moment's notice. You have to become a weather predicting wizard and like- Like even though, like, they're getting better at a lot of that stuff, you can't overcome the fact that these only generate power when it's available. And then there's this whole push of, it's like, \"Oh, we can just-- we'll build so much that it generates way more than we need when we don't need it, and we'll store that in batteries, and then those batteries will be available for when we need it.\" But like it's just adds layers of complexity and then that adds more cost to it and then they don't have the same life, that we were expecting them to have. Like a lot of these solar farms were, they were predicting in twenty, twenty-five years and like we're seeing a lot of them starting to decay and break down now. And then you've got the maintenance and the recycling costs. And it, it seems that a lot of the people that are really into wind and solar are very narrowly focused on that period of time where it's generating electricity for free, which is Great in many applications, still we'll find a lot of use for windmills and solar panels, but not as base load to support an entire complex economy. Like we need stable, reliable power that's always going to be there, and that's where nuclear comes in. Like There's, it has its own trade-offs in various ways, but like, stuff like the waste, it's a very small footprint, it's easy to manage, it's the one of the most well-tracked and like audited industrial byproducts that out of any industry that exists. Like the IAEA keeps strict accounting on every little bit of uranium and plutonium that is out there in the world. And so we know where it is, we know where we want to keep it, and we know that we can actually recycle a lot of it, and that will bring a-- it'll decay the radioactive elements faster if we can continue to process it in new types of nuclear reactors where they can use that as fuel, and then basically their byproduct is Can sometimes be fuel for another reactor depending on the technology stack that we start to develop with these. Like the technology and the capability to do it, it exists, it's been tested, it's been proven, it's just, it's costly to bring it all together if you don't have the demand for it, if you don't have the demand for the power and a lot of uncertainty With when, where you're gonna build these things, then the whole supply chain behind it just doesn't come. So we've been waiting for some signals from, like, like a lot more politicians and nations saying, like, \"Yes, we want to get into nuclear power,\" and then that prompts the industry to be like, \"Okay, we have the confidence that we have the support of the, the politicians and the...\" The political, and the mo- the social license is also important as well, and we're seeing that momentum come around on a lot more just the populations being supportive of nuclear power And, yeah, it's starting to come together, and we're starting to put the pieces together, and there's so much potential of what we can do, and that's why often, I, yeah, I, I find myself, I'll, I'll start talking about one tangent, and then before I know it, we're three, four tangents away from what the actual question was. But it's so exciting, and there's so much going on right now that, yeah, I can Yeah, I can get lost in a few examples." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:12", "start": 1392.45, "text": "So could you maybe spell out so as you were saying, it seems there have been some improvements around-- Sorry, there's a little bit of a delay here. but yeah, you were mentioning some of the, benefits around the waste management, because that's been a previous, bugbear or concern with nuclear, that, you know, there's some waste somewhere that has to be retained somewhere. I mean, it's not like we're running out of space on the Earth somewhere, but, you know, hypoth Spell out what was the historical reality and what's, you know, today's reality and what's the future reality going to be around waste for nuclear waste management?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "23:49", "start": 1429.01, "text": "Historically, it was just keep it in a safe, safe place aside, shielded. Sometimes they'll use, they'll tile holes or large lead flasks. That's typically how it's been stored, on most nuclear sites to date and from pretty much from when they started needing to store it. And over time, the radio nuclides they decay down and they become less radioactive Active, and then it's safer to handle, and then you can step down the like levels of security and like safety protocols that are taken to protect and shield from them. So it's just, it's the natural state of radiation, just the, the most harmful ones that are radiating faster and quicker, they decay faster and then become less of a concern after like a few decades. So it's basically it's just a waiting game. and then the other thing we wanna do is a lot of it still has available energy in it that isn't extracted by the conventional reactors that we use, so we want to develop more technologies like the molten salt, fast breeder reactors that can use spent fuel from other reactors as its primary fuel and just continue to recycle it until you are basically left with inert solids coming out at the back end. And then there's also, tritium is something that comes up on the news every once in a while. Because tritium is what, Fukushima has stored up in those, those barrels and they need to release it out into the ocean, but a lot of concern about it is, is over exaggerated, 'cause tritium exists naturally in water just at very, very low concentrations. It's the, it's hydrogen with two neutrons on it. So deuterium is, is heavy water with one neutron, and then tritium is just the heaviest ver-form of hydrogen. And it passes through the body really quickly, so if, even if it was ingested, it just overhydrate yourself and it'll just flow right through your digestive system and it doesn't have any negative effects. It just doesn't have time to commit any negative effects in, in the body. So that's one thing that gets over exaggerated when people hear that there's tritium being released into water supplies. And the other fact about tritium is that it's going to be part of fuel for fusion reactors. So if the tritium isn't in fact- concentrated, it's going to be a valuable commodity for a completely different industry that's going to provide great value to humanity if we can succeed in finally getting like small scale or large scale fusion operating at a, at a commercial, setting. So And then the rest of it's pretty much just like the solid material that the reactors were made out of. They, they'll be put in a safe shielding container and kept at the, kept at a, disposal site until they decay enough that they can be safely handled and recycled in a more appropriate manner. It's just, just people are scared of the concept of radiation. So whenever you do hear about radiation, nuclear waste, they're- I, I believe that most people's minds are often triggered to, like, The Simpsons, and 'cause everyone has like that ver- that vision of Monty Burns burying a few barrels of green goop in the neighborhood park and Blinkie the three-eyed fish, and that's tainted a lot of people's understanding of the technologies. So it's-- and it's very difficult to dislodge something that hasn't been imprinted so strongly, even with good, truthful, honest, like, information about the topic. Many people, yeah, they're just, they, they learn something and then they will stick to that as their truth, and it's been very difficult because the industry hasn't historically- advocated well for itself in the past, like that's why it's exciting to have like groups of advocates that are completely disconnected from the industry, that are kind of off doing their own independent thing And then," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:36", "start": 1656.24, "text": "yeah, I forgot where I was going there. Back to the show in a moment. The lead sponsor of this show is Swan Bitcoin, and Swan is organizing Pacific Bitcoin again this year. It was a phenomenal experience last year at Pacific Bitcoin in LA, and it's coming again this year in October. So make sure you check it out, mark the dates in your calendar. It's October 5th and 6th. There are so many awesome speakers who have agreed to come. Now, some of those are yet to be announced, but those who are announced- Announced are Lynn Alden, Greg Foss, Preston Pish, Mark Kahoods, Corey Clipston, Alex Gladstein, and so many more to come. There are going to be multiple stages. This is going to be an ex-excellent experience to bring along your friends and family, especially if they are new to Bitcoin. This is going to be the perfect one to bring them along to. So go and check it out over at pacificbitcoin dot com. Use the code livera for a discount on your tickets and make sure to get your tickets before the prices rise. That's October fifth and sixth This is where I go to target my fee before I send a Bitcoin on-chain transaction. Nowadays, mempolls aren't costing as much as they used to, but it's a great way to keep on top of things and make sure you're up on what's going on. And with mempoll dot space, you can view the ecosystem. You can see mempolls, you can see the blockchain, you can see second layer networks like the Lightning Network. And with mempoll dot space, you don't have to trust a third party. You can host it and run it for yourself, and the software is Also consider they have a transaction accelerator program which we'll be launching soon. This is gonna be a great new service, and Wiz and the team have announced this and they're working on it, and so look forward for more announcements coming up and go and check out mempool dot space. And now back to the show. Yeah, so basically as you were saying, having, nuclear influences for, you know, for want of a better word, out there or pro-pro-nuclear influences, let's say, who are helping, win the battle for hearts and minds in the public's eyes and potentially in some of the politicians' eyes as well, because like the politi-whether we like politicians or not, in many countries around the world, it has to, it has to get through them as well. We have to play their game. And so, right, yeah One of the interesting benefit that I've seen just from looking at SMRs is this idea that you could have smaller SMRs that are just for a particular community, right? It could be like some comparatively small, you know, quote unquote, only five megawatt SMR for a small community, as opposed to trying to go for this big, massive, Big, typical pressurized water reactor style." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "30:15", "start": 1814.97, "text": "Yeah, that's, that's the game plan for Canada. We wanna take these little five megawatt reactors and we wanna upgrade the entire-- of northern Canada off of diesel, 'cause that will solve many, like, downstream problems, just won-- the, the power will be reliable and affordable. We won't have to have narrow windows where we ship in diesel, like, like it'll still be valuable and useful up there for operating other machinery, but not for electricity and heat, 'cause that will be primarily taken care of by these little nuclear reactors. And the cool thing about them is you can build them out in modules, so if you wanna build five megawatts or build ten megawatts or build forty megawatts, and it'll just all be coupled together in a nice convenient, ordered fashion, and some of them can actually share infrastructure. To varying degrees. So you can perfectly match them to the needs of the community, but then you're still gonna have a little bit of that overhang, especially if it's in a microgrid scenario where you aren't connected to another grid elsewhere that you can just export that electricity to. So what Ontario does a lot right now is when we overgenerate electricity, it gets exported to New York, Rhode Island, a bunch of the other northern states. They'll, we in fact pay them to take that electricity because we generate so much that it, that having it in our, our grid disrupts The frequency and, and can be a liability, so it's, it's part of that balancing act, and it's actually one of the, one of the reasons cited that they were able to, justify shutting down the Indian Point reactor in New York, 'cause they were able to, they, they import so much electricity from Ontario and Quebec that they were like, \"Oh, we, we can do away with our nuclear reactor.\" And now they've seen the carbon emissions on their grid, in fact, do the opposite of what they had been intending to do by building offshore wind and solar panels all State. So that's an interesting, just you, you see these knock-on effects when, when you have power available to distribute to a wider, wider grid. But then, yeah, when we get into microgrids, that's where you have to start finding ways to balance all of these things together with your load and your demand. There's a small community that I'm aware of That's only, it's a few hundred kilowatts, like I don't even think they're a full megawatt. But what they do to balance their grid is they just have a room of space heaters that just flip on and off, and that is, that is how they control their load and to make sure that they're always consuming the maximum load. But then they can shift it in response to just the local residents changing their consumption patterns based whether it's intraday patterns or like weekly, seasonally, like 'cause, yeah, you get different weather. Like, I'm sure where you are in, in Dubai, like you guys have a lot, a lot of cooling that needs to be done, but then not as much in the winter season, so you have a lot of power that's available for one season, but then it's not completely needed on the other season, so you just, you need something to play that role that can be- Off for one season and on for another season. So that's where I see the Bitcoin miners fitting into this role with nuclear power very well, especially on the microgrids. They'll, they'll do well on the bigger grids as we're, we're seeing a lot of that start to happen with the, the project at, Susquehanna in Pennsylvania, where, with Talen Energy, that they've built a modest-sized data center there, is even though it's a huge data center compared to the ones that we're seeing being built out by Riot. Like, yeah, that small in comparison, and then I'm hearing rumors that there's going to be big ones built in Ohio in relation to their nuclear power infrastructure, because they're seeing a lot of these liabilities when you're generating, you have your base load generator, and then you have all of your intermittent supplies coming in, and they can bid zero into, like, into the price markets and really be disruptive to your base load generator that's now just like, okay, well, that means that you guys get to generate first everything that you can offload, and If there's oversupply, that liability often gets put on to the, the base load generators. So it's, it, it can be disruptive to their economics when there's a lot of different sources that they're competing with for market share, and that's been one of the major factors for- That not justifying building new reactors in a lot of these places 'cause they're just like, well, the demand patterns are uncertain because we have all of these other sources coming and going and we're, we're trying to become more like using, high efficiency, appliances and light bulbs and having people's thermostats be controlled by a central authority. Like all these different strategies to balance that out, but it's, it, it wasn't working in the best favor for nuclear power 'cause, we also had other things like natural gas goes up and then it goes down and then you have these periods where it's like, okay, it's not affordable to build the nuclear reactor, and then it's like, oh, well, these other power sources are expensive now, so now we should be looking at nuclear reactors, and then they just, they get caught up in these flows, and then they also get caught up in the political flows where sometimes," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "35:15", "start": 2115.18, "text": "de facto has to be opposed to it, and that is something also refreshing, is in Canada we have both of our leading parties are trying to out-pro nuclear each other, so that, that just, it gets a lot of the, the partisan nonsense out of the way that we've, been afflicted with a lot lately, 'cause, yeah, bit- Bitcoin is one of those touchy subjects still here in Canada, 'cause we have the, the Liberals don't like it, but the Conservatives have talked positively of it. And so it's become a dirty word when it, whenever it comes up in political discussions, and that is one hurdle that we, that I'm trying to overcome here in Canada by attaching it to our power infrastructure in a much more effective way, and then They'll have no choice but to say, \"Like, this is something good. This is a good that we can use, and it provides great value to our power systems, to our citizens that we're going to be able to use it as a way to advance our goals with nuclear power and empowering a lot of these communities that have been with- Expensive and unreliable power for generations, so we have a chance to really turn things around, but it's gonna take a lot of work and it's gonna take a lot of, a lot of human capital, a lot of Capital, capital, and the right incentives, but we're getting there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:30", "start": 2190.31, "text": "I see, yeah. So as you said, it's getting people bought in, and that can be winning hearts and minds, getting people bought into this idea of, \"Hey, nuclear would be great for us. It would help us produce more, do more, be better, make more things, et cetera.\" and so like you said, Canada has, I guess, the fortunate position of both parties being pro-nuclear, so that's an interesting dynamic. I wasn't aware of that. and so- When it comes to Bitcoin and nuclear, as you were saying, part of the argument pro Bitcoin here is that a Bitcoin miner can come in and be taking up some of that, capacity, to help make it economical to build that capacity in the first place, and then, I guess, the Bitcoin miner can make an agreement to say, \"I'm gonna come in and take up this much capacity until at which time the grid needs it or this other community they need it.\" Is that how you're pitching or how you would promote this idea, or can you explain a little bit about the mechanics there of how does a Bitcoin miner come in to try to collaboratively make that case in line with nuclear?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "37:39", "start": 2258.57, "text": "Yeah, my pitch is that they're gonna play the role of the anchor. They're going to just be that load that just rides at the margin of supply and, and demand and fills in whatever gap and inefficiencies they might have, whether it's directly at the generator, whether it's at like a transmission substation And where, where it's being converted for, different distribution pathways, there's opportunities everywhere, and it seems like the Bitcoin miners have set their sights on finding every inefficiency that they can throughout the power grids and plug them up with their little miners, and it's inevitable that, that's going to infect in some way the power managers themselves to see the value that this technology provides, and it's only a matter of time before like these large- Generators start consulting with or, or hiring this growing number of Bitcoin miners to operate systems for themselves or to just, yeah, to just consult on the best matches and the best strategies to go with. Like, I'm sure if Westinghouse called up someone like Harry Sodak and was asking for his advice on how to perfectly match a Bitcoin mining site to one of their new nuclear builds that's gonna have this, this sort of local demand, like, he- Someone like him would jump at the opportunity to just get in there and push these two technologies together in like a way that's going to work, work bene- mutually beneficial for everybody involved. Like we know that as Bitcoin starts consuming more power, like that just makes it more reliable, more secure, and then it just creates that self-fulfilling feedback loop where it's, it's better, so then more people are using it, then more people want to investigate things like Bitcoin mining, and then it makes it more secure, and we just- Keep going around in this loop where, like, what I'm hearing about and s-seeing is being built right now is, is astounding. The, the level of technology that's going to be available to us in the not too distant future is going to change a lot of how, yeah, our relationships with, with power systems, our relationships with money, and, yeah, this little niche that I found myself in is a pretty interesting intersection between the two of them, where now we're, we're talking about these big ideas of deploying- Basically a nuclear reactor pre-packaged with a Bitcoin mining facility attached to it, just as, as a standard to just perfectly match whatever we expect is going to happen, and then we can also use it to de-risk building future generation in the present, although we're not going to have the demand for it, we can plan for future demand, and even if that future demand doesn't come, like say there's, there's a hospital project that's built, and then all this power infrastructure is built and dedicated and devoted to this new hospital And then the hospital doesn't get built. Well, at least we have the miners there acting as that placeholder until something else comes along, or they can just sit there and take that extra power, and then it spreads it out across more customers, so ultimately it makes it cheaper for the ratepayers of that local community because they would have otherwise been on the hook for the full cost of the upgrades to their power infrastructure. So it's And it's awesome seeing what's happening in Africa right now with Gridless is just starting to build some of their smaller pilot projects on just like really micro hydro operations that wouldn't have been able to get funding and financing from like a bank or a money lender because of the uncertainty of being able to recoup that full investment, but now the miners just they, they can provide that level of confidence that we can, we can make these things beneficial to the local community and also- be profitable, because if there's no incentive for somebody to be making money off of these things, often they just don't get built, so then everybody's left in the dark. And so I, yeah, I, I think Bitcoin is that perfect incentive to just build power for the sake of building power wherever it's needed and wherever we want to, and it's going to get very exciting in the next few years, 'cause I, the, the, the Susquehanna plant and what UAE is doing is just the beginning of this relationship between nuclear power and Bitcoin mining, and I'm, I'm Just, yeah, I found myself at this very unique niche that's getting a lot, a lot more attention very, very quickly from the bitcoiners and the nuclear people too, 'cause at the conference I went to that was a nuclear theme to, for the North American young generation and nuclear, they actually had a presentation by the chief nuclear officer at the Cessquohana plant giving us all a presentation about the Bitcoin mining data center that they just built at their site with, Talen Energy, and it was awesome, 'cause- Anybody that wasn't paying attention at that conference before, like they are now, and like everybody from the nuclear industry was represented to some degree. There was the, the president of the local grid from Xcel Energy, there was Westinghouse, GE, all of the, the vendors that are proposing new reactors and the a-actively operating in some still around the US and the rest of the world. Yeah, they're, they're paying attention now, and so that's very, very exciting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:46", "start": 2565.75, "text": "Great. And so part of the case then, in some cases, let's say it means the Bitcoin miner is saying, \"Hey, I, I'm gonna come and set up a, a Bitcoin mining set of rigs in, you know, maybe co-located or somewhere nearby to take that power when you don't need it, and if you do need it, then is the Bitcoin miner going to have to make the case to say, 'Look, I'm just gonna turn my rigs off if you need that That power. And so I'm curious then, because maybe that's one area where people might be unclear of the profitability of that operation for the Bitcoin miner, because he now has to turn his rigs off. So does that present a problem for the Bitcoin miner, or how do they build that into their business case?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "43:28", "start": 2607.84, "text": "That is one of the reasons that a lot of Bitcoin miners are looking into different ancillary services that they can provide to the grid. Like, I suspect a lot of Bitcoin miners have been paying attention to, what goes on in Texas ERCOT grid, where they've been showing that Miners are actually earning more revenue from participating in demand response programs than they are actually mining Bitcoin. So that is very interesting and exciting development that I don't think many people would have anticipated, not that long ago. And so they're, they're providing a service. So many of them are contractually obligated to do it, that's part of their power purchase agreement structure. That's, that's when you're called upon by the grid, when the, when it reaches this threshold, then you are to curtail your load, and it's a pretty simple operation to Program them to do that, to respond to various signals, whether it's the price or the grid frequency. 'Cause they're just computers, and, and in many cases, they don't even need to be fully turned off. They can just be, underclocked, as we've been seeing some of the Bitcoin miners have been tinkering around with how, how underclocking affects their efficiency, and in many cases, it was showing that the efficiency actually goes up, so you can mine with a less efficient miner when it's at full capacity, but if it's running at like twenty For the amount of electricity you're using, mine-- creating more hashes to contribute to the Bitcoin mining. So, and then the other thing that some of them are looking into is using their waste heat as, as a potential like alternate, profit stream, especially where we're building them up in northern Canada. Like, you can use them for any number of operations. I've been seeing people use them for, for greenhouses, hot tubs, pools, just Space heaters, like the, any, anything that you need low-grade heat for, it seems that they're finding a way to, use Bitcoin miners as, as a go-between where you're, you're going to be using that heat anyways, and you're gonna be using either a, like a gasoline or propane fueled heater for your greenhouse, but now you can use an electric heater that's also mining Bitcoin on the side, and you were, you were going to use that heat anyways, so now it's- The Bitcoin's actually just kind of a bonus, and that's, that's how it looks like with a lot of the, like the small scale home miners are doing. Like, they can mine unprofitably, but a lot of them are using them as space heaters or bringing them straight into their HVAC system or, yeah, or their water heaters. So it's, it's very interesting to see all these different developments that some of them may actually start getting commercialized and standardized in some way or another that That'll just be a normal thing that you can, if all your heating is electrified, like, like most of Quebec uses electric heating because they have a lot of electricity generation with all of their hydro. So it would make sense to instead use heaters that also mine Bitcoin, 'cause that's just a convenient byproduct. Like I in fact have a broken dryer, the, the heating element broke on it, so I took my S9s and I- 3D printed a nice little shroud from Crypto Cloaks and then I ducted them into the back of my dryer and it's not as quick as it used to be when it was running at the full capacity of the, the heating element, but with two S9s, yeah, you can definitely dry your clothes. So it's, yeah, it's just finding alternative ways to, to profit and that's, that's gonna be the game 'cause there's gonna be get cheap electricity and then what else can you do to, to beef up your margins on the edges? And we're gonna see different Strategies in different jurisdictions, whether it's because of climate, whether it's because of politics, whether it's just because of different load profiles, like I'm all for all of this experimentation that's gonna happen, and it's very, very exciting, and what will succeed, will, will succeed and flourish, and we'll also be able to test a lot many strategies that we can observe failing so that we can avoid them in the future, as we've been seeing with some of the miners took on too much debt and got themselves into, sketchy territory thinking that the, the number was going up And then the miners that had prepared and had in their minds like, \"There's gonna be a bear market, the price is gonna go down, we should be operating for the worst case scenario,\" and those miners seem to have come out ahead. Like CleanSpark is a perfect example of that. They built infrastructure, they built relationships, and then when the time was right, they were able to scoop up all of these ASICs at fire sale prices. So it's, yeah, I'm here for, I'm here to just watch this game play out and play my small little role in advancing it. It's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:51", "start": 2871.31, "text": "Yeah, and so, when it comes to doing Bitcoin mining, obviously the very, one of the very important factors for a Bitcoin miner is what's your power cost, right? Because that's often the de-- the defining factor of whether you are profitable or not. And so maybe that's the, that's another question that people may have is that, i-is nuclear energy going to be cheap enough? And of course, I guess in the optimistic case, yeah, absolutely, it's one of the cheapest, but in maybe, until you get to that Optimistic case, are there scenarios where maybe nuclear costs too much for a Bitcoin miner to get involved in that game?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "48:28", "start": 2908.49, "text": "Yeah, definitely the cost is important, but we're seeing that the, the nuclear miners are actually getting very low cost electricity. The, the guys out in Georgia and CleanSpark, they're, they're saying that they're paying like three cents for their power purchase contracts. The Susquehanna plant is, is paying only like two cents for their electricity, and then that game theory plays out. Like we're gonna have a halving coming up soon, so the miner profits are gonna be cut in half. So if the price doesn't go up to match that, there's gonna be a lot of miners that are now just unprofitable overnight. It's gonna be the opposite of what happened when China went offline and, and everyone doubled their profits overnight with nothing changing. So it's-- and then everybody was plugging in everywhere, and it was just a wild mad dash to find any electricity that was stranded that you can just plug into, and we saw that it kind of overwhelmed Kazakhstan quite a bit to" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "49:21", "start": 2960.85, "text": "When they just flood into your market. but yeah, it's, it's very interesting to see the different strategies. And the, the miners know that this is coming up, so they're all trying to vie to be on that lower half of the margins, that when it does happen, that they'll be the ones to get to stay online, 'cause we're gonna see a lot of interesting changes in, in the hash rate if there's lots of miners that are mining above that margin and because everyone's competing over the same share of Bitcoin Bitcoin, like it's, it's gonna get, it's gonna get, wild out there, and I'm looking forward to see how it plays out. Like, I've-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:58", "start": 2998.0, "text": "Right. I've only" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "49:59", "start": 2998.64, "text": "been in here for a short enough time, like, this is my first full cycle, so it's, it's fascinating to watch and go as deep down the rabbit hole as I have so quickly with many others. Like, yeah, it seems like the twenty twenty-one, twenty-two, the new class of Bitcoiners have- Gotten pretty fast tracked, like right down the rabbit hole, and it's, it's interesting to be a part of." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:19", "start": 3018.96, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's an interesting thing to watch as the cycles play out. I've got, you know, episodes from past cycles, let's say, and some, you know, Bitcoin miners have commented that there's this funny dynamic where, of course, yes, the number of new bitcoins issued or infla-- you know, created every, you know, after the halving is halved, and so what you get is Most efficient Bitcoin miners actually cheering that. It's like a weird dynamic because in a way their competition gets kind of wrecked in a way, and so then if you're in the top, if you're in the top percentage of, for those miners, you actually do really well out of that, because your competition might be switching off and you are, if you have low enough power and, and a low enough all-in cost, you know, for, for your mining, if you're talking about the operations cost and everything all together You're actually doing really well at that time. And then, if the-- and then I think the best obviously is when there's like a bull cycle happening, which has, I guess, happened, normally a little bit after the halving, at least historically. I'm not, I'm not saying, you know, everyone bet your life on, on it happening, but if that does happen, if you are alive as a Bitcoin miner at that time, that's when you're really just printing the money, and that's kind of the best time in the cycle for a lot of these miners." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "51:43", "start": 3102.67, "text": "A lot of it's gonna consolidate as we go through these, these waves and cycles, through the false halving cycles, it will consolidate into the miners that have found the lowest electricity. We'll all start rallying around and gathering around cheap electricity, creating more incentive to generate cheap electricity. It, and it's gonna create these strange feedback loops that nobody-- I, well, like some people might have seen this coming, like, some of the, the writings of, of Hal, like he definitely saw It having a major effect on our power systems like all the way back in twenty ten. So that's, it is fascinating that, that some people had that vision to what we are experiencing now today and seeing this play out in a really major emergent way that, that, like, no, I- Yeah, I, it's, it's, it's just fun to watch that's, and be a part of." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:35", "start": 3155.16, "text": "Yeah. One other question I've got for you, in terms of comparing small modular reactors versus, let's say, the typical, pressurized water reactor, like the kind of, the typical one that most people might have heard or seen in the movies, that kind of thing, how are you seeing the developments of those going forward? Are, are you seeing it like most of the energy in the development is going towards SMRs, or do you see it like actually both of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:00", "start": 3179.8, "text": "Of the, the big style nuclear reactors in different countries around the world." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "53:05", "start": 3184.98, "text": "Yeah, it looks like both options are on the table. Like for a minute there, it looked like there was more emphasis on SMRs and really getting them started and, and off to the races, and there was less attention being paid to building new large reactors, but now that there's been a few successfully finished in the Western nations, and I think we saw that the South Koreans are very effective at building reactors in, in other nations like UAE, that there's been- In a renewed emphasis on building these new reactors, like I had mentioned earlier in Ontario, there was no expectation that Canada was going to pursue large nuclear at all ever again, and lo and behold, Ontario's building it. Five gigawatts of new nuclear capacity at the Bruce site, making, ensuring that it stays the largest single, like, generating station in the world for nuclear power. Like, it's, it's gonna be a huge facility and- Yeah, no, nobody, nobody was, I don't know, I guess the people that were intimately involved with it knew, but like even people like, Dr. Chris Keifer, who's, an, an advocate for nuclear power here in Canada, that's done a great job at, at renewing interest in, in the CanDo reactors, like even he was surprised by this. Like there was, and he obsessively pays attention, he's involved, he's talking to a lot of these politicians, and then they announced it, and, yeah, every, everybody that It's a very refreshing development in the nuclear space to see that, that we are again taking large nuclear seriously again, 'cause as far as I'm concerned, we need everything on the table, and one of the challenges is getting investment, getting, getting capital that has a reasonable cost to it, 'cause when you have a huge CapEx The difference between six percent interest on that and nine percent interest is billions of dollars. Like some of these projects, the interest alone is two thirds of their entire like capital expenditures. Like it's, it's absurd. And that's one of the, the, the things that gets argued about lots with the wind and solar advocates, 'cause they see it as any capital that's being invested in nuclear is capital that's not being invested in their preferred infrastructure development projects. So it gets-- that, that seems to be the one place is who can lobby the government and tell a better story to get the support and the financing. Most effectively, and they, it, it seems to be that the one side that has, for the last few decades, been doing quite well on that front, has been losing ground to nuclear, and many of them are very upset at this new development, and they're very, they're, they, they're very vocal about their distaste for nuclear power taking away any of their potential, like, subsidies and revenue, like as we're seeing, like some of the Scandinavian countries, I think Sweden and Norway basically just started announcing that they're, they're going to re- Reject new build outs of wind and solar infrastructure in favor of building nuclear, so that's, that's a big win for nuclear, but it's a big loss for everyone advocating for wind and solar everywhere, which it's-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:06", "start": 3365.52, "text": "Yeah, it's a fascinating point you make there around the interest rates, because as, you know, I and many others have been saying, funny things happen with interest rates at low levels, right? Because that's from a, from an Austrian economics perspective, we can see that's, that's where malinvestment can happen, because they've been given this kind of false market You're flying a plane, but the instrumentation is giving you the wrong signals because interest rates have been artificially pushed low, and so certain projects look profitable when in real reality they aren't, or they wouldn't be profitable because the, the resources required to see those projects to fruition aren't actually available. It's just they've been sent a false signal. And so I wonder whether some of that wind and solar, the unreliable energy, maybe some of that, the enthusiasm for that was maybe driven by lo-- by artificially low- Interest rates, and now that the world is seeing interest rates come back up, at least from the US Fed, Federal Reserve perspective, interest rates have been coming back up to, you know, up, in big increases in the last few years. So maybe that is going to drive some sense of a rationalization and maybe some focus more on what's actually economically sustainable, right? Not, not the kind of, greenie, quote-unquote sustainable, but actually economically sustainable energy, and maybe that includes some case For nuclear, because now people are being forced to actually deal with something closer to a real interest rate." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "57:32", "start": 3452.05, "text": "Yeah, it forces people to examine the trade-offs a lot more, objectively and to see what is actually the more superior technology. Like, are you familiar at all with the, the strong towns concept? And it was--" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:45", "start": 3465.0, "text": "Yeah, I've read, Chuck Marohn's book, I thought it was a really great book and-- Yeah, like, I, it's interesting because, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I see" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "57:51", "start": 3470.63, "text": "that, like, what he describes of how, And how they just need to keep building in order to like finance what they built before, and then it becomes a cycle, and then after like three generations, it just starts to collapse in on itself 'cause they've got like three cycles of debt that they're, they're working through. I, I see that playing out in a similar way in like the, the wind and solar build outs, where it's just, they're, they're just building for the sake of building, and then they have to continue building in order to make, to cover like the expenses and maintenance costs of what they've already built" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "58:24", "start": 3503.81, "text": "Nothing's profitable anymore, and they've everything's spread so thin, and they're, the markets are all just out of whack." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:30", "start": 3510.07, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. And I think from a Bitcoin perspective, obviously we are critical of central banking, fiat, in-inflation, fractional reserve banking, which we view as what caused some of this malinvestment. And so we're, we're bringing it back to normal, we're bringing back reality, economic reality is reasserting itself, and I think it'll be interesting to see over time, you know, as there's this connection, between- economic reality and Bitcoin, I think it's, it's all reasserting itself. So I think really interesting stuff, probably, a good spot to finish up here. So, Ryan, if you have any final thoughts or let's say if there was one message you wanted listeners to take away from this, obviously to Bitcoiner-focused audience, what's the one message you wish they would take away?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "59:14", "start": 3553.92, "text": "I just want people to have more faith in humanity's capability to adapt and to build and to come out of tough situations stronger and better than ever. I, I expect the next few years are gonna be rough, but if we can come out with our wealth and our sanity intact and our infrastructure intact, we're going to be at a, playing at a whole new level for humanity, and it's going to be very exciting, and I'm a lot more confident in the future that my children are gonna grow up in now more than I have ever been over the last Decade or so. So it's, yeah, we're, we're in for some good times after some hard times." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:51", "start": 3590.77, "text": "Fantastic. Well, thank you for joining me, Ryan. Listeners, you can find Ryan online. His Twitter handle is nuclearbitcoiner, but just with no e in the handle. All the links will be in the show notes at stephanlivera dot com slash four nine one. Ryan, thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me, Stephen. It's been great talking to you. So what do you think about Bitcoin and nuclear? Make sure you let me know in the comments, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }