{ "episodeId": "SLP496", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "fernando_nikolic": { "name": "Fernando Nikolic", "role": "guest", "tag": "FERNANDO" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.65, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics, brought to you by Swann dot com. Today I'm speaking with Fernando Nikolic, director of marketing and communications at Blockstream, and we're talking about this idea that Bitcoin isn't for everyone. So maybe it's slightly controversial, but we get into his background and why he believes this, who is Bitcoin really for, and- Is there a role for Bitcoin evangelists? A bit of a teaser about what's coming with Blockstream Green and the pathway forward. Pacific Bitcoin is coming back this year and it's being put on by the team at swan dot com. This is going to be October fifth and sixth in LA, so make sure you mark those dates in your calendar and get ready to have an awesome time. There was so much great feedback from Pacific Bitcoin last year, so of course the swan dot com team had to put it on again. We have an awesome lineup of speakers for you, people like Jimmy Song. Ben Alden, Greg Foss, Preston Pish, Corey Klipstein, Alex Gladstein, and so many more. There will be multiple stages, there'll be the main stage, there'll be a swan dome, and if you come one day earlier, there will also be a VIP mining industry day for those of you interested in that also. So remember, this is a great opportunity to bring friends and family along so that they can soak up the Bitcoin vibes and learn about Bitcoin from all other kinds of Bitcoiners, whether they are speakers or everyday Bitcoiners who are attending. Also, so go and get your tickets over at pacificbitcoin dot com, use code Livera for a discount, and the dates, as a reminder, are October 5th and 6th in LA, and I'm looking forward to seeing you there. Fernando, welcome to the show!" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "01:44", "start": 104.04, "text": "So Stefan, good" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:45", "start": 105.01, "text": "to be here. So Fernando, I saw you wrote this article about this concept, and you've been speaking about this concept of whether Bitcoin is for everyone. So do you wanna just tell us a little bit about where this idea came from?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "02:00", "start": 119.59, "text": "Yeah, right. So, Bitcoin is for everyone is kind of like a slogan that has reverberated in the Bitcoin Twitter community for a while. I feel like a lot of people are saying that, and I get the un- and I get why they say that, 'cause obviously Bitcoin is indeed, you know, something that can be adopted by the entire world, right? Like we have pretty, we have pretty big ambitions when it comes to Bitcoin, all of us, right? so I, I totally understand like the, the intention and, and why they would say something like But the thing about Bitcoin where we are right now is that there's just gonna be a lot of people that are just not gonna get it, or just fight it, or just simply don't wanna know about it. And I think in, in terms of like us as Bitcoiners trying to orange pill, any, any, anyone, anyone, whether it is a family member, a friend, anybody in your social circle or whatever, we need to accept the fact that Bitcoin isn't necessarily something that Will people will want to understand even to begin with, right? And I think a lot of the energy that we put into orange peeling people and just evangelizing Bitcoin and talking about its benefits and whatever can be spent more effectively if we actually took a second to think about, hey How about I think about this person that I'm, that's in front of me, that I'm, that I'm trying to orange peel and see, you know, what is this person's about? What kind of change are they seeking? What do they wanna do exactly? And then figure out if or not Bitcoin actually has a place in that, person's, you know, life. The kind of like go-to methodology that we have as Bitcoiners is just like the second that we understand Bitcoin, or at least we achieve a deeper understanding on an individual level of Bitcoin, is like tell the, tell the world, right? Like we wanna go to the top of the mountain and scream at the top of our lungs how awesome Bitcoin is. But the same arguments that convinced you and me, it's not necessarily gonna be, convincing the next man. And we tend to kind of like talk about Bitcoin in the same way we understand it, but, you know, what I care about isn't Tell you something that everybody will care about. So I think us as Bitcoiners, we need to be more intentional and actually accept the fact that, hey, Bitcoin isn't for everyone, not everyone is ready, but there are certain groups around the world that for some reason, like their life circumstance or whatever, they are ready right now, they're willing to listen, and we need to just think about them and not try to like orange peel the world, if that makes sense." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:35", "start": 274.59, "text": "Yeah. And I, I will say, so there is a course that I curated on the Saylor Academy and that- That technically is titled Bitcoin for Everybody or Bitcoin for Everyone, but I, I, I certainly understand what you're saying, and I think maybe the way I would frame it is maybe it's a time thing, right? Like that we believe that eventually the world is going to adopt Bitcoin, but to your point, and I agree with that aspect of it, is that not everybody today will understand the point of Bitcoin or will be excited about Bitcoin. There are people, and, you know, I guess there are different ways we could come at this too. So for example, as I'm sure Of there are people who use Bitcoin, but they're not Bitcoiners per se, right? That they wouldn't go to a Bitcoin conference. So the analogy he uses is that, you know, you might use BitTorrent, but you wouldn't go to a Bitcon- BitTorrent conference or say, \"I'm a BitTorrent, BitTorrenter,\" right? Like there are certain aspects where people just use it out of necessity. And they don't really care that much about the movement per se, they're just a user neutral, yeah. So I guess there's a few a-elements to that. So let's break that down one further level. So if Bitcoin isn't for everybody, who is it really for?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "05:46", "start": 345.87, "text": "Yeah, and that is kind of like, that's the challenge, right? Like, that's where we need to put all our energy and focus into figuring out. And the thing is, like, I, I do believe there are people doing this, and m-most of those people are actually working at a Bitcoin company, because they're kind of like more incentivized to actually take a deep dive into studying that. Like, you know, specific target audience, what do they do, what are they trying to achieve, what's like the, the job that they want done, and then they have to figure out Every product or service that is based on Bitcoin actually serves that ambition of, of this target audience. And if it doesn't, okay, you pivot. And if you do, you build a business on top of it. And then the way you build a business on top of that is by just being razor sharp with the messaging for a very specific target audience. And kind of like in the process of doing that, you exclude everybody else, because you need to realize that whatever you're offering is good enough for a subset that can grow over time. But that doesn't mean like, okay, your target is the world, you know, in, in its own. And I think to, to a certain extent, there's so many different factors that qualifies you, quote unquote, to be ready for Bitcoin. There's not really like a one answer, like, this is for this particular, subset. There's so many different type of people that are ready for Bitcoin today, whether they are, very technically inclined and interested in the cryptography aspect, of Bitcoin. The decentralization aspect of Bitcoin, there's, there's a lot of reason for them to be in this space based on that alone. But that doesn't necessarily mean that, I don't know, somebody in, in Argentina who's trying to get a remote job and earn some dollars and just wanna open to the world through internet, they wanna get accepted, they wanna, you know, get paid in Bitcoin, and there's a use case for them as well. But you put them together, the, the, the German technically inclined person that loves cryptography and the Argentin- Kenyan young remote worker that's just trying to, you know, provide for their family, you put them in the same group and all of a sudden, no one message is actually going to necessarily, stick. So you need to exclude, you need to put them apart, so, so that's kind of like what I'm trying to say, like there isn't one formula that fits all, and that's why we should stop saying, Bitcoin is for everyone, because it is for anyone that are willing to listen, that are in a predicament, whether it is, you know, you, you're a resident of a, of a country that has struggled with hyperinflation for decades, that's, that's, you know, a, a criteria that would make you ready. But then there are other criteria that will make you ready as well that isn't necessarily that. we as Bitcoiners need to be just hyper aware of these things if we are serious about, meaningful adoption, to be honest." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:39", "start": 518.76, "text": "Okay. So let's break that down into types then, types of users. I think a common example, at least in the early years, early-ish, let's say, I mean, we're still early now, but whatever. I think people who are able to save for the long term. I think they-- I think that's an important segment that has to be grown personally. of course, I'm not opposed to spending, I do spend Bitcoin myself, I promote Lightning, I promote merchant adopt- Option also, but I think the primary segment that I'm interested in growing is that saving and self-custody segment, so that's kind of how one way I'm seeing it, but I'm curious how you're seeing it if, if we were to look at different segments of the market" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "09:22", "start": 561.95, "text": "Yeah, so like I, I lead the marketing and communications team at Blockstream, right? And Blockstream have so many different products and services. So, through my work, I understand now that it's just People that aren't interested in mining and that will probably just be interested in mining, other people aren't just interested in lightning and will stay there, and then you have people that will be interested in both. And the way these people get convicted about Bitcoin and its use cases is just going to be very, very different. So you gotta like try to be as objective as possible, but if you wanna be subjective and try to like find like the, the things that really, speak to you, I would kinda like agree with what you just said. I, I also feel like the savings technology aspect of Bitcoin is kinda like fundamental, because I think If you are able to save, if a technology enables you to save, because whatever asset is to connect it to that technology, is of the properties that will make it accrue in value over time That changes your whole life, and then especially so if you are from a place like Argentina, which by the way, I'm from Argentina too, so I, I know very well, like hyperinflation doesn't necessarily just, oh man, milk is, thirty percent more expensive this week than last week. It actually goes deeper into the social fabric of society. you have people emigrating, escaping the country, like real talent that should be in the country to build it, to improve on it, they just go to other countries and help Those countries build instead. So that stuff goes really, really deep, and as a result of hyperinflation, you're just not incentivized to save, and if long enough time passes, you just forget about the concept altogether. A-and I think if Bitcoin can per-if Bitcoin can help these people get that notion of the concept of saving back again, so they can actually plan ahead and not look like, you know, they live week after week or day, day by day, paycheck by paycheck That's a massive improvement that really goes deep. So I'm cool with that use case alone, to be honest with you, because it has so many ramifications and so much improvement on so-- on a larger scale that is, is, is really what like good money brings forth, societal change. So I'm good with saving technology, to be honest. so yeah, I, I would agree with what" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:54", "start": 713.52, "text": "you said. Yeah. And so, to be clear, there are different narratives that may appeal for different people, right? There may be people who, for them, they don't About the savings aspect, and, you know, whatever. Point is that there are, I guess, there are certain things we should focus on, like if we're thinking from a, you know, business school context, people talk about this idea of a USP, unique sales, sales point, un-unique selling point. And so we have to think, what is Bitcoin uniquely good at, and what are the areas that maybe it could get competed against on, you know, in, by other products or other services or technology, right? So if you went back You know, ten years or whatever, people used to say, \"Oh, banks aren't open nine to five, or it takes three hour, three days to do a transfer, and so, so on.\" But what we've seen is all these fintechs, these things that have kind of taken away some of that advantage that Bitcoin used to be a unique selling-- that it used to be a unique selling point for Bitcoin, but it's not anymore. And so I think that's why this kind of focus on the savings technology, at least for now, to me, seems really important. But I also Of permissionless censorship resistant money, right? Like that you can just use it to earn money or spend money without asking permission. So w-how are you seeing the different narratives and this concept of the unique sales, sell, selling point?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "13:17", "start": 796.76, "text": "Yeah, I totally agree with you on, on that, right? And th-this is the thing, like, as individuals, as just people, we don't think about these things when we are trying to convince people about anything. I mean, Bitcoin is one thing, but just in general, like, if you wanna- convince, a woman to marry you, there's ways to go about it and there's ways not go about it, right? And we kind of like as humans psychologically, we respond pretty much the same to, to different ways of, of approaching, right? So we need to be very cautious about like how we approach things and, and kind of like not overindulge people with too much information, but we need to always think about who is the other person we're talking to. So it's a very hard question that you're asking because it all depends. It, it- It is kind of like, it's very subjective, but I can try to like go a little bit deeper and see if we can explore a little bit more. take me for example, my Bitcoin journey, like me being Argentinian, that was like a, a very deciding factor looking back in me understanding the, the value prop of, or the USP of Bitcoin, 'cause I am Argentinian by birth, my family's Argentinian, Spanish is my, my first language, but I grew up outside, of Argentina, right? So I spent, I spent And, Northern Europe. And I was always asking myself, like, \"Why do I, why do I live with my mom in Northern Europe and why is my dad and the rest of my family in Argentina? Why do I have to go back and forth?\" Okay, I learned eventually it was because, you know, i-i-in the late eighties, early nineties, Argentina went through some hyperinflationary dumpster fires, it was just like impossible to live in Argentina. Okay. Then I see these things happen over and over again in my country, people still, emigr We'd leave Argentina for better opportunities, and it's because of the same reason. So I was like, always like fascinated by that, like, why is this continuing to happen? Then a friend of mine introduced me to Austrian economics, and I was like, okay, now I see, like, keynesian economics, more like, you know, the, the, the properties of the Austrian economics and kind of like how they thought about things, that made sense to me. And then Bitcoin came along, coincidentally, the same friend who introduced me to Austrian economics introduced me for Bitcoin as well." }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "15:32", "start": 931.59, "text": "I totally got it, because all these experiences prior in my life, just by just being alive and being born where I was born and going through what I went through, all of that, that introduction to Bitcoin clicked instantly. If the same friend came to me and said, \"Bro, this, this Bitcoin shit is like the most cypherpunk stuff ever, man, you gotta, you gotta go and read the white paper, dude,\" and, and it's like, I, I would have been like, \"Okay, fine,\" I wouldn't understand anything that the white paper was saying, I wouldn't So it's like we, we, we just need to be very, aware, we need to show empathy, we need to humble ourselves and be like, okay, whoever I'm trying to orange peel, what, what have they, what have they, they gone through? Because I can go and orange peel somebody else and say the exact same arguments that led me to be convinced about Bitcoin. Hey, Austrian economics, you know, like, Keynesian economics is BS and this is- This is why the fiat, money system is going to collapse soon. I mean, a lot of people won't really pay attention to that, and you see that in so many bitcoiners. I've seen so many people on Twitter say, \"Hey, I'm done orange peeling people,\" 'cause, 'cause they always get rejected, they just don't get the message through. And when you are so convinced about Bitcoin's properties and you, you can't like dedicate your personal life, even your professional life to it, it sucks to get that rejection. But that" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "16:56", "start": 1016.24, "text": "To you, to everybody, just because you think Bitcoin is, is, has like the ramifications to change everything in the world, which is true, but you need to just start at one point and then take it, take it from there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:08", "start": 1028.03, "text": "Yeah, and, look, I, I think I certainly I can echo a lot of the thinking. I think in some ways our journeys are kind of similar. Obviously, I'm not from Argentina, but in terms of Austrian economics and having that same experience for me in twenty thirteen, basically when I was, you know, really deeply going down the rabbit hole for In early 2013, and I was basically, as you were saying, like shouting from the rooftops, trying to teach anyone and, and any, anyone and everyone who would listen. I had very limited success. Now, yes, there were some people who I got in, but some of them sort of wavered a little bit, and then they came back, and now they're really hardcore into Bitcoin. And some of them are now, you know, some of them are like school friends, university people, people like, yeah, for, for various reasons. But I think the question Bitcoin. So for example, there's a lot of libertarians who aren't into Bitcoin, when it's obviously-- and I'm sure, you know, as an Argentinian, there's probably a lot of Argentinians who aren't into Bitcoin. So I'm curious, why is that? Do you have any perspective on that? Is it that they just have a different concept of how to save, like if they got money, they would rather buy a property instead of Bitcoin, or what, what, what would, or do they just wanna do stablecoins, or what's, what's the," }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "18:26", "start": 1106.14, "text": "It's complex, but if I were to say like one thing that kind of like try to encapsulate all of that is that sometimes it's really, it's really easy to agree on the problem, but then you don't necessarily agree on the solution, right? I've heard, there's so many-- One thing about like Bitcoin podcast, just the, the space in general, is that sometimes on, some shows they bring in people that are like super based, Like politically, like their ideology is pretty aligned with a lot of like values that I think, at least personally, Bitcoin is also on the same spectrum politically. So it can kind of like, the conversations are really good because we all identi- we all identify the same problems, but then at the end of it, they might say something like, \"Well, the solution is, fiat money backed by gold, not Bitcoin, right? \" And you're just like, \"Ah, man, right? \" That's right. Exactly. So it's not, it's, it's not an exact are convinced about stuff, not because of one specific thing that they read, it's just the accumulation of like decades of learning and, you know, reading stuff that, creates your conviction, right? And for anyone to come in and kind of like rock that and just like shatter your worldview, it's gonna take a lot, it's not gonna happen in one sit down. So, you know, it's- I, I think that talks a little bit to why, you know, places like Argentina, I think Bitcoin should be bigger, I mean, to be honest with you, Ethereum is huge in Argentina compared to Bitcoin, and I thought that was always a very special case because how, how much more obvious is the problem, when it comes to hyperinflation in Argentina, and how obvious shouldn't the solution of Bitcoin be? But Ethereum for some reason is a more attractive solution to their problem because, it's about opportunity at the end of the day. The day, it's about making money, quick and like hyperinflationary, like you see like all the way back to, to the YMR Republic. You get to a certain point where you become a degenerate gambler, and that's kind of like the only-- like looking for those type of opportunities becomes the norm, and, that affects the culture, you know, you can ask any Argentinian how a- Like stereotypical Argentinian is, it's like we're always looking for the next, the next hustle, and I think that is one of, one of the reasons like stuff like Ethereum is so big, because it is considered like a, a huge hustle, and you can do that, you know, through a laptop, even better. so yeah, they can agree on the problem, they wanna be desperate for a solution, but at the end, ultimately, your personal traits, I would say, decides what kind of decision you create, because I think to be honest with you, if" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "21:03", "start": 1263.32, "text": "morals. if you're a person that is, proud but at the same time humble and willing to unlearn certain things, well, there are certain personality traits I think you should have in order for, to be ready for Bitcoin. And, you might from a intelligence, level understand the problem, but like from the soul, you might think of a quick solution and not really a, a solution that changes something, that changes a culture that has deeper, deeper- meaning, which I think Bitcoin has compared" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:35", "start": 1295.05, "text": "to Ethereum at least. Yeah. And so what we see sometimes is people, and we're seeing this even in the news now, right? Both in the UK and in the US, Nigel Farage got de-banked from Coutts Bank, subsidiary of NatWest, and now I think he had some success with that because he managed to get the NatWest CEO to resign and apologize, and the BBC had to apologize, right? But he's, he's sort of pushing the wrong angle in some ways because he's also trying to say, \"Oh, we need It's like we need a new law, you know, there's kind of that mindset. It's not-- and even though he spoke at Bitcoin Amsterdam last year, right? And then in the US, we're seeing the same thing, right? We're seeing, Dr. Mercola, right? So he was anti-the COVID regime, anti-the jabs, all this stuff, and one of his businesses is getting debanked, and the personal, the CEO and the CFO and their family are getting debanked. And so it's the same kind of thing that, you know, people are sort Gonna be slow, but it sort of gives you that kind of frustration because you think this is such an obvious answer, you could use this today, why not?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "22:41", "start": 1361.23, "text": "Yeah, and this-- the media is another like very curious case study to be honest. And, and this is also by working in communications, I, I, I look into that a lot, and I have a side project that I, that I call Bitcoin Perception, which is doing exactly that, like I'm monitoring the Bitcoin coverage, across the mainstream media, and I've been doing that for like two, three weeks Weeks, to be honest, but already now it's pretty evident just by looking at the numbers. There's different factions within the media that are covering Bitcoin differently, and I think the relationship between that is pretty interesting because one, on the, on one side, you have the, the writers, you have the editors, you have like the machine behind each outlet and their understanding of Bitcoin and how they conceive the message and their like agreed understanding of Bitcoin, like they agree on what Bitcoin is, and then that determines how they cover it for us. I don't know how long, right? But then the readership is also very interesting as well. People who still like read The Guardian, I don't know why they still do that, but there are people who still read certain media outlets because they are aligned with their worldview in other, in other sectors as well, right? And it's very interesting 'cause you have, and, and it's kind of sad as well because, you know, it's pretty obvious that nowadays outlets, a media outlet as an entity, isn't, isn't no longer like a watchdog, trying- Trying to like scrutinize, the things that happens from a government side, it's, it's, it has become like a mouthpiece of, some political dogma or ideology that they subscribe to, some political allegiances that they, that they forge, and then that's the relationship for all eternity, right? But it's interesting to see how they understand Bitcoin, because on the right side, like the, the, the right leaning media, like Fox and stuff like that, they tend to understand Bitcoin in a very specific way. They talk mostly about Bitcoin Bitcoin mining and like the relationship of mining with like balancing the energy grid, as a, as an industry, like a energy sector industry that can provide jobs and stuff, a very blue collar way of understanding it, right? And they are kind of like sticking to that message, and I'm thinking, hey, it's a very small fraction of what Bitcoin truth is, but it is true, right? And I think it's okay that they keep talking about Bitcoin in this sense and that their readership, you know- Through reading them, establishes that, that type of understanding. And I'm cool if they stay there. They don't need to necessarily know about Lightning Network, they can just have that understanding and see value in Bitcoin and just stay there for the rest of their life. Hey, that is part of adoption. That's just the cohort that is a little variable in the cog that drives global adoption in general. in the middle, you have the Bloomberg's, the Financial Times, the, you know, the, the, the more like finance outlets, and they see Bitcoin from a investor pers- It's all about the investment thesis. They, they talk about Bitcoin as if it's like a tech stock, and I know a lot of Bitcoiners have a problem with that too, but it's actually okay. I let them understand Bitcoin in that way. It's an entry, it's a first touch point. Maybe they will develop a further understanding based on that, maybe not, maybe they just stay there and treat it as a stock, as a speculative asset, but that's fine too, it's one aspect of adoption. But then you have the left leaning media, which is just, they, they Any positive news from El Salvador, they find a way to put a negative spin on it. They talk about Bitcoin, together with, like side by side with scams, terrorism and all of that, and that's just what they're going to do. And my point is, there's no need to convince them. Like, I don't want Blockstream necessarily to fight, to, to have an op-ed on The Guardian or, have Adam Back be interviewed by them, because most likely they will continue to find That negative spin on it and we'll probably not service, right, or Bitcoin in general, but also the audience who are reading The Guardian, I don't wanna, I don't wanna spend time trying to convince them, it's okay, Bitcoin isn't for everyone. They, I'd rather try to, you know, the ones who have a, you know, very small understanding of it, whether it is the Bloomberg readers or the Fox readers, at least they have a foot in the door and we can build on that. And I think that's way better, that's just time spent way better than trying Convince a blue-haired, eco-socialist about the virtues of Bitcoin, which I'm sure there, there are arguments for that too, right? But, let's just spend our time wisely. Like, let's not waste people's time. It's about respect, to be honest. You wanna respect people's time and your own time as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:19", "start": 1639.3, "text": "Yeah. And so while that may be triggering to, let's say people out there who wanna focus on the progressive case for Bitcoin, I know there's a guy who wrote a book for that, and there's a, Ye- they can have their material and wh- whatever that case is. I think for me personally, and probably for you as well, I'm just not focused on that, right? I'm just more focused on where can I actually, where can I win? Where can I help somebody, you know, where can I help somebody improve their understanding of why fiat money is a scam basically, and why Bitcoin is the answer, right? Where can I focus on that? And I think this does align a little bit, well, it seems to align very closely in some ways with the idea of the ten Bitcoiners, right? So this is something Cory's written about for Swan, it's like this idea that if, if we built up enough of a base of, you know, hardcore Bitcoiners or people who would go to fight, go to bat for Bitcoin and try to spread the message, then it just becomes so much harder to stop, and so I think that was part of the case with how Swan, like, part of the vision of the company in some ways, but part of it of, of course, is just providing services for Bitcoiners so they can buy Bitcoin and stack and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:32", "start": 1712.16, "text": "It does for- force us to focus on who can we win, and I think one way that I'm seeing it, and part of this, you know, there are people who've been writing about similar ideas. I know even, Krissus, you might have seen, Jesse Myers, Krissus BTC wrote this article, \"Why the Yuppie Elite Dismiss Bitcoin,\" and in many cases, it's because they're from a belief system that won't allow them to step out of their tribe, right? They wanna stay within that tribe, and they're not very open-minded. They just Still unwilling to step out and understand why Bitcoin is a good thing. And so maybe it's a similar thing to that. What do you think?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "29:10", "start": 1749.83, "text": "Oh, man. I mean, I think that it, it is about shattering people's worldview, right? Like part of understanding Bitcoin, to me at least, my personal opinion on it, is like you need to humble yourself, pray silly down, and be open to change your mind about things that you have perceived as As universal truths, stuff that they taught you at school, stuff that they have taught you from, you know, your family members, you know, a lot of these things, you need to kind of like uproot and drastically change your mind on how, how you see it. And once you do it, you can't unsee it. You see the world through a different lens. I think, at least me, and I think a lot of other Bitcoiners can probably identify with that type of like radical change in your, in your persona, you know, before and after Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "29:56", "start": 1795.88, "text": "Personality traits. Like, like I said prior, you need to be like, you need to be a humble person, you need to be a person that, that appreciates building and not destroying. You need to be, yeah, you need to have these, these traits already in your system from your life before, you even hear about Bitcoin the very first time. But then also apart from that, from like more psychological traits, I think there's just like straight up incentives, right? Like, there are people who their whole career is based on never- Understanding Bitcoin and never changing, and that's just gonna continue until that incentive no longer exists. Whether that is an industry dying, the press dying, traditional banking dying, I don't know what that is, to be honest. But it, whether they die or not, they will probably like change. Like the music industry ch- was forced to change, when MP3s and the internet started like distributing music and torrents came alive, you know, they, they will be forced to change or adapt to, to that. but it's like some people are- Or also, they have sunk costs, like they have based their whole life on thinking about life in a certain way. Think people, you know, the world is a chaotic place, so much going on. If you actually had the ability to know everything that was happening at once, you would go mad, right? So in our life as humans, we're just trying to create this lens, this filter of how we view the world, and we're trying to understand everything that happens every day through that lens. So a lot of people aren't willing to change that lens. A lot. They're comfortable understanding how, the way they have always understood life, and they're just like uncomfortable changing that drastically. We can call it cognitive dissonance or whatever, but, that's a fact, right? So I'm thinking, you know, try to find the people who are willing to change that worldview, to change that filter, to take out-- It's like old school analogy, a camera photography, like you, you had to take out a filter and then add a new one in order to take a different picture. it's kind of like that, That's why Bitcoin isn't for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:59", "start": 1918.65, "text": "everyone. Back to the show in a moment. This show is also brought to you by CoinKite dot com, the makers of my favorite Bitcoin hardware security device, the Coldcard Mark IV, is the latest edition, and of course, they've got a new one coming out called the Q1, so you can pre-order that also. But for those of you who need a device now to secure your keys and get your coins off the exchange or off your custodian, get a Coldcard. It's a great device, it's really easy to use. Some people say But I really don't believe this. Honestly, if you get a coldcard and you get a USB-C cable, you can directly plug it in to your laptop, or you can even use it with phone apps such as Nunchuck in NFC mode. Although the NFC is off by default, the coldcard is an ultra secure device. It's got two secure elements, it's got a lot of RAM, it's a fast CPU, it does fast signing of transactions, it's a very reliable performer, and you can set it up without even phoning home. So to get your coldcard, go to When it comes to on-chain transactions, I always go to mempool.space to check my transaction fee and target it so that it is appropriate depending on the priority of that transaction. With mempool.space, you can view a comprehensive view of the ecosystem, whether that's Bitcoin's mempools, the blockchain, second layer networks like the Lightning Network, and they've also got mempool v3, so they have a forked version of Electrums. You can visualize full RBF equals zero And full rbf1, and they've got a mempool accelerator integration coming, which is with-- which is what was announced recently at Bitcoin Miami. And also, mempool blocks are scrollable, so you can go and see all of that and keep an eye out for the mempool accelerator program coming over at mempool dot space. And now back to the show. Yeah. And so then, I have, I have my own ideas on this as well, but I'm curious to hear your view. If the idea is Bitcoin isn't for everybody, and, you know, you can't evangelize this to everybody, what then is the role of Bitcoin evangelists, right? Because I think certainly many of us were im- impacted or influenced by other evangelists, like obviously early evangelist people like Andreas Antonopoulos or, or others out there, right? If they didn't do what they did, maybe that we, we might not be here or maybe some of us- Plus might not be here. So then in this context, what's the role for evangelists if there is one?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "34:21", "start": 2060.68, "text": "Yeah, that's super interesting. I think that has a lot to do with like which stage in the adoption cycle we're in, because I think in the beginning, like you go back to twenty thirteen, right? That was not really like the, the, the, the user experience of Bitcoin was Very bad at that time, and you needed people like Antonopoulos to kind of like conceptually talk about Bitcoin in different ways and present it to you in certain ways that was easy to, to understand and at least start there and then go, choose your rabbit holes and go as deep as you want, right? And I think for, for a period, especially in the beginning and maybe towards twenty seventeen, I would say, evangelists like that was needed because they, they kind of like, you know, if you're not that technically inclined, You need somebody to be able to translate the, the technical things about Bitcoin and put into a perspective of like, what's the real use case in the world? What does this mean for the world? And I think Antonopoulos is just a, he's so good at that. but I think now in twenty, twenty-three, we're like fourteen years in, right? I think now it's kind of like where we maybe need to stop raising awareness and just like create products and, you know, think about the communication. think about target audiences. Instead of an ocean, think about the swimming pool, as a reference to, to Seth Godin, which is a marketing guy that I like, that I, that I put in the opinion piece. Identify the swimming pools, don't focus on the ocean, and then these little swimming pools are people that you bring in through a great experience, whether it is through an app, a platform, a service, whatever, it's not necessarily because of the concept of Bitcoin, but it's more of a thing that you employ to do what you wanna do. So if you're, somebody in, Tanzania, and you just wanna set up a, a business, a local business, and you don't have the means to KYC yourself, for some reason you just don't wanna, you can't create a, you don't have the means to have a bank account, yeah, you would, you need a real good Lightning product to be a-- that enables you to do what you wanna do. And if you're able to do it, that person's gonna love Bitcoin for the transformation in his life, not because Bitcoin is awesome, it No, because of the actual day to day, the actual change that happens. And in the opinion piece that I work for Bitcoin Magazine, I mentioned Herman Vivier, which is a, someone I consider a friend, but just somebody that I really admire. He understood like there's a very specific thing in this township in South Africa, they have a real need, he saw that, 'cause he knows the pain, the, the struggles, their desires, their wishes, their dreams, and then he could translate how Bitcoin can have a space for them to reach their- Goals or whatever, and that leads them to be excited about like, okay, you're telling me that if I know, if I study Bitcoin or, and I use a wallet, I can actually get paid for a graphic design job, instead of somebody in Ireland wants to do, hell yeah, sign me up. That's the, that's where we are right now, and that's where I think like the role of the ev-evangelist, should, should take. No, don't, no more think boy, stuff, no more like conceptual stuff, just like present the People that you're presenting this value to and, and get, get their feedback and, and start like creating those ecosystems that might be insignificant when you put it in an isolated view, like, okay, a township in South Africa, who cares, right? But the more of them that appears, that's where the, like the, the cultural change happens. And, the cultural change happens not because of any ideology or any Bitcoin Maxi identity that you put to your person, it's just, it's awesome because you've used it And it works, and it's a delightful experience, and, you know, that, that changes the culture, more. So I think that's kind of where I wanna see evangelism and just orange pilling, I guess, in general, go in the, you know, where we are entering in the adoption cycle." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:21", "start": 2300.96, "text": "Yeah. So I think there's certainly aspects I agree there, like the orange pilling, like even sometimes like even the use of the term orange pilling, I, I get a little uneasy about the way people use that because it's sort of seen like, And like, and I think maybe you, we have to, like you were saying, maybe we have to have a little bit of humility, and at least make it more targeted and meet that person where they are at, right? Even if they are wrong, right? Like, even if they are wrong, they don't understand why fiat is a scam, why Bitcoin is better, or Bitcoin is the answer. I think there's a certain level of, it's an ongoing process, right? It's not that, you know, for example, if you just tip an Uber driver one time with a" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:06", "start": 2346.01, "text": "Pill that person, right? Like I think at best you might have them using Bitcoin in a custodial, in an IOU way. Now of course we want not your keys, not your coins, we want people to use non-custodial wherever possible, but it just-- there's an ongoing process that's required for someone to really, actually come down the rabbit hole per se, don't you think? You need an ongoing relationship, right?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "39:26", "start": 2366.28, "text": "Exactly. And there's a con-- that's a lot of these things what you just said, you just need to connect. You need to- Be able to be at the right time, at the right place, essentially. So maybe being seated in the back of an Uber, when you're driving back and forth from a Bitcoin conference and trying to, you know, orange pillow, whatever, the driver makes sense. Like I, I remember, like I was, in BTC Prague and one time, one of the drivers was a Ukrainian dude, and he was He was just telling me like, \"Hey, you know," }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "40:05", "start": 2405.41, "text": "what's the local currency in the Czech Republic? The corona? I think, yeah, Czech" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:08", "start": 2408.24, "text": "crowns, is it? Yeah.\"" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "40:10", "start": 2409.58, "text": "Yeah, the, the Czech crown, yeah. So he was telling me like, \"Hey, the Czech crown is going to be obsolete soon.\" I was like, \"W-why is that?\" \"Oh, the EU just passed a, passed a law and, you know, they're gonna introduce euro soon.\" I can't remember exactly when, but it's probably And I was like, \"Damn, that sucks. What do you think that is?\" And then that's a, that's an example of like the type of questions you should, you should ask people, right? Like you shouldn't necessarily say at that point, \"Yo, but Bitcoin is fucking cool because that is impossible.\" The, the cool thing is in, engage in the convo and, and, and like I said to the drivers, like, \"Why do you think that is?\" And basically, he could have said, \"I don't know, no idea.\" and that would tell me like, okay, he's not really interested in that. But his answer told me like, 'cause he, 'cause he said, \"Oh yeah, you know, these, these, bureaucrats, they, they love, central power and, and, and they wanna like regulate everything and, and they wanna just extend their, their control over sovereign states within the EU and stuff like that.\" And I'm like, \"Okay, this guy's based. This guy is ready for Bitcoin, right?\" So that led me to put it in perspective how It works in this very specific scenario that he was talking about, and then he, that kind of like triggered his interest in his brain, and he started thinking, and he asked me a lot of cool questions that was like, okay, this guy is interested for real, and it's not about like, I don't know, some greedy stuff like how to get rich fast. It was like How is the society going to change in a system, in a Bitcoin standard, for example? And then obviously we started talking about like the parallel systems and stuff like that with, with, Czechoslovakia, during the Soviet Union, and it was like, okay, there's so much like based conversations that was just like, that's nice, that's like, okay, one successful orange pill. He might not do anything after that Uber ride, he might never like get a wallet or get Bitcoin, but at least that's a guy who- Who's ready, but hopefully he, on his own, will kind of like, you know, try to, try to learn a little bit more. there is a book that I like called The Diffusion of Innovations. can't remember where in that book is from, but it's called, it's by a guy called Everett Rogers, and I think it's from the '60s or something. it's pretty, pretty old. But he said, one of the quotes, I just gotta get my notes here because there's four quotes that I really wanna talk about, the first one being, diffusion is the process by which an innovation is communicated through certain channels over time among members of a social system. So like that sentence kind of like explains like you need to do it over time, so like repetition, propagandization maybe is like one element, you should just keep repeating a message until it sticks You gotta communicate through certain channels, so you gotta be very, you know, you gotta be on top of your game to know exactly, you know, is it, is it through podcast, is it through TV, wh-what is it through? And then it is among members of a social system. So there's a lot of, it's a, it's a group that aligns on worldviews essentially. And you need to be able to know what those worldviews are in order for the diffusion of an innovation to be accepted. Because if you don't have these variables in place, an innovation or, or like a new invention You're just going to have, like, the knee-jerk reaction is to reject new, new things, right? Like, people were very comfortable riding horses, and when the car, got introduced, a lot of people didn't like it. A lot of people didn't like when electricity was a thing. There was like campaigns, like, a lot of like caricatures being, being drawn a-against electricity, right? So you will have this like luddite reaction to just things being new because you're already, comfortable with your worldview. So it's, it's, it's All of this is what I'm trying to say, right? Like that's the crux of the, of the whole thing. And just like be mindful of these things if you are serious about, you know, getting people and onboard people to Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:25", "start": 2664.99, "text": "Yeah, right. And I think as you said, like you need, you, you need-- it's repetition, it's, you know, getting the right messaging, it's a combination of these factors that really can bring someone in. And you know, here's the other thing, I think a lot of people- Don't change their mind from having an argument about things. It's more like people change because they see someone else who they wanna copy. And so maybe there's, there's, there's, and there's people making this kind of argument also, right? You're seeing people saying this on social media, they're saying things like, \"I don't bother trying to convince people about Bitcoin, I just let them come to me,\" right? And if you are a good example If you are a role model, if you have success in something, and then other people come to you and they're asking, \"Oh, hey, how did you do that? I wanna be like you,\" that's then the moment that you can explain, \"Oh, hey, well, I use Bitcoin and da da da, etcetera.\" So maybe that's also part of it that you won't convince people In an upfront discussion or argument per se, but you have to just be available and then they will come to you." }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "45:30", "start": 2729.88, "text": "Totally, totally. And, and that's also another, another cool thing, like, let's, let's play that scenario out, right? Like, imagine you have somebody come to you, \"Hey, I heard about Bitcoin,\" a-and then they say, \"Well, I heard it through, I don't know, Stephan Livera show, or, I heard it through, TFC or whatever.\" You as a Bitcoiner who know Like in it and is open. But if the same guy came to you and said, \"I wanna know all about Bitcoin, I heard it from Bitboy, I heard it from, I heard it from Bitcoin dot com,\" you're gonna be like, \"Ah, damn,\" like, \"Where? That's a tough one. That's an uphill battle.\" So it's, it definitely plays a part, like, where people, just consume content, and it's kind of like, i-i-it is our, it is our duty to just always be upfront with the Their own, but when that, when that interaction happens, that one-on-one where you're actually sitting down with people asking questions, yeah, you gotta be mindful about who you're talking to and keep that in mind. Like the same humility that you had that led you to understand Bitcoin, you need to show that humility to the next person that you're trying to, bring, bring over." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:42", "start": 2801.76, "text": "Yeah. One other topic that I wanna get into, because I think this is something people are talking about, stablecoins, right? Now, I'm not a, you know, I don't promote stablecoins, I promote Bitcoin, of course. But this is see, it seems to be a common line, and I call this stablecoin hand-wringing, right? Now, the way I'm seeing it is like there are people saying, \"Oh, look, there are people using stablecoins with these altcoin that are traveling across altcoin chains per se, even though the stablecoin is centralized.\" Fine. Bitcoin users. And maybe we don't need to be so worried about that because they're different markets per se. Now, of course, I want more and more people to use Bitcoin, but the fact that somebody wants US dollar exposure, maybe that was not somebody who I could have converted, right? Like, and, and I'm curious what you have, what perspective you have, obviously as an Argentinian, I'm sure you know lots of Argentinian people are using stablecoins, and of course, I'm sure you'd love that they, if, if they were to use, you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:42", "start": 2862.42, "text": "But ultimately, the market for stablecoins is different from the market for Bitcoin, isn't it?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "47:47", "start": 2866.78, "text": "Yeah, and you know, like a lot of people say, like, okay, stablecoins are actually, you know, detrimental to adoption, because they choose stablecoin and they just stay in that ecosystem and they, they just like they're averse to Bitcoin, so that, that adoption either never takes place or just takes place way later when they could have done a reverse and started on Bitcoin. I agree with that, but then that's a very theoretical way of looking at it, On paper, that is true, but you gotta-- that also, that's a prime example people like not really caring about these people, because obviously these people have a need that is urgent, that needs a real fix. And, you know, in Argentina, I can, I can speak for Argentina, US dollar is the standard, it's like the highest, like, that's the gold standard in a way, right? if you wanna transact like real, like, I don't know, if you wanna, you know, buy a property or whatever, it is all den Sectors is dollars. The, the daily, day to day, yeah, go ahead and, and you know, buy your, buy your milk with pesos. You don't, you don't wanna spend your dollar to, on milk when you have a, a, a way lesser, super inflationary currency that you just gotta get rid of anyway. So that is a real reflection of their reality. So obviously their choices, the way they behave is gonna be based on that. Not Not from a developer on Twitter from, Spain who think, no, no, no, no, no, you should go to, to Bitcoin directly. Yeah, I mean, they're right, but so are the Argentinian, choosing terrors over Bitcoin. another thing is that, you know, Bitcoin should also be okay in terms of its volatility because, hey, man, your local currency isn't devaluing like crazy and you're seeing way crazier swings, volatility-wise, so the volatility of Bitcoin shouldn't be a problem neither. But it's just a Of like the dollar being that thing, and then you take into the political context where you have capital controls, and the con-- it's kind of like, like a prohibition law, right? Like you're not allowed to exchange more than, I think it's one hundred and fifty dollars a month. That is like a strike on the fact that like people just want more than one hundred and fifty if, if that is the law, right? So they would just get-- they would try to like find, ways of, circumventing that limit, and hey, stablecoins is like a perfect, Said circumvention. you can go to these caves where there's like literally a sixteen year old on a laptop that is super tech savvy and knows about, you know, finance and how all these things work, and they, hey, they offer a service to their community, and that's it, it works, people get what they want, and that's what, that is what matters. Now, if the dollar is going to zero, which might happen or maybe not, oh yeah, Bitcoin definitely becomes the replacement. The- That become makes Bitcoin the standard, but right now, at this very moment, it's not. So we just gotta be very aware of that reality and not like go into these like childlike knee-jerk, knee-jerk reactions where people like, they, they, they rage, they rage on Twitter thinking, \"No, no, no, no, no, the Argentinians are doing it wrong,\" or \"They don't, they don't understand, they're stupid.\" It's not, they're actually very smart. and the same thing can, can be said about self-c" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "51:07", "start": 3066.9, "text": "And being in control of your keys, that is the gold standard, that is ultimately like the goal. But I think there's a lot of people who aren't willing to start there. It's a, it's the end goal, so you need to go through steps to be not only, you know, secure about what you're doing, like knowing what you're doing is obviously important, but you need to also see why you should do it, you see the value in controlling your own keys. That's not necessarily something that people learn on the first day when they understand Bitcoin. so it I think again, products and services that takes care of you in those like prior steps to ending in self custody, I think that is important too, because, you know, in Latin America, for example, people use smartphones, right? Like a lot of people they haven't kind of hopped over, they, they didn't have internet, like landlines or, or, or laptops or whatever, they just jumped straight to smartphones and, you know, 4G. The thing is like these smartphones aren't, factory- Refresh iPhones, right? Like they are like smartphones that are passed on to others, it's like four or five people, that same smartphone that they use today has gone through four or five different pair of hands, and God knows what kind of apps they have installed, what kind of like, you know, they're extremely hot phones, and there's really no real service out there that really takes care of those people while they are like getting acquainted with Bitcoin, getting comfortable with Bitcoin, and we need to, we need that to exist, for them To be cool and then take their time to study Bitcoin and eventually get to like, holy shit, you know what? Keeping my Bitcoin on the phone isn't a good idea. Let me, let me graduate to a hardware wallet. It's like American hawtul saying self-custody is like learning to drive a car. You don't start at the highway, you start at the parking lot, you gradually get there. And again, us saying, like, talking shit about people who aren't, doing self-custody, that is wrong. Like, we need to have empathy and understand That there are steps to getting there, and we need to be good at like providing good products, good services, good experiences all together for people to actually, get there eventually. So, I don't know if I-- This was maybe a rant, I don't" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:19", "start": 3199.24, "text": "know. Yeah, okay. But let's get to the question of, I guess, for people who aren't able to get to the Bitcoin standard of using Bitcoin and self-custody, I guess there's an element of pragmatism there, because for some of these people, they can't earn directly in Bitcoin, or maybe there Unwilling to, because they haven't, because the culture doesn't kind of allow them to yet. So maybe there's some elements of trying to shift the culture over time, not, not, you know, it's not gonna happen tomorrow, but if, if we slowly shift the culture where it's normalized that you just earn in Bitcoin and spend in Bitcoin, m-maybe there's something there that, that helps ease the, you know, ease the pathway for more people to actually become Bitcoiners." }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "54:02", "start": 3242.07, "text": "Yeah, no, totally, but like I think me and you, we were kind Spending and replace camp, I think we're kind of like good with just saving and hodling and, and I think that's a important use case and to be honest, self custody is the thing, if you're, if you're doing that, right? So I, I, I think, yeah, you know, creating circular economies is cool, getting paid in Bitcoin, spending and replacing is cool, but it's still to this day not something I would tell somebody to do, to be honest, because there's so many points of failure and kind of like self, self custody is a key Clean thing, just like get Bitcoin, whatever you get it from, put it into this, control your own keys, and just stack, keep stacking, keep stacking. It's like a very easy frame, it's a very easy mental model for people that are new, but it's still hard, it's still like, y-y-y-we can't really, underestimate how a total new, look, look at these things. Yeah, people say, yeah, it's twelve words, write it down on paper, but it's, it's more than that. You need to understand like what It means, it's not just, I, I can, I can write twelve, twelve words on paper right now, doesn't mean shit. I, I, if not, it's, if it's not in the proper context. So yeah, what I'm trying to say is, there's a bunch of different use cases. A lot of people derive value from Bitcoin at this point because Bitcoin is, there's so many different products and services right now than like ten years back, and I think it's great. But still, the point is the same, you need to just figure out what" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:37", "start": 3337.38, "text": "Yeah. And so when it comes to different generations as well, that can mean appealing to them in different ways. So for example, I think it's a common thing nowadays that Gen Z have very, very low patience, and so they need extremely simple, they need the text, and they need like these kind of video, you know, they need it in a different style than what the, let's say, the Gen X and the Boomers need. And maybe the Boomers need a more tailored message that's kind of more hands-on service. because maybe they're not as tech savvy. I, I guess part of it is tailoring your message, like you said, based on who, what, what that person, who that person is, what they are trying to do, but then also being pragmatic about what's the first step for this person that's realistic that they'll actually take. Because I think that's the other a- angle, because idealism and perfectionism can get in the way of actually making progress for some of these people. And so I think there are sometimes where a narrative is popular on social media Media, let's say, on, in Bitcoin Twitter or Nostr, but maybe that's not the actual narrative that convinces people and gets them started on the journey, even if it's not perfect." }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "56:47", "start": 3407.23, "text": "Yeah, and it's not a perfect science neither. I think obviously everybody speaks about Bitcoin the way they feel comfortable about, based on their own convictions and stuff like that, and I think- That's why, I guess, just to have a controversial take, it's like that's why I'm, I'm very bearish on individual bitcoiners doing, like, carrying adoption on their shoulders, 'cause I think just- Just, you know, you talk about what you like, you, what, what you're interested in, the thing that you deem important, and you just talk about it just in general to whoever, right? Like, but I think that is the reason why so many people have given up on orange pillin' normies because they keep getting rejected. But honestly, like, it's also understandable, like, you can't really pretend to like- Ask all these like preliminary questions trying to dig into their psyche to get, you know, like, like the example of the, of the Uber driver in, in Czech Republic that I did. Not everyone, is doing that. You just talk about Bitcoin because you like it and your own reasons why you like it, and then whoever's on the other receiving end, maybe they'll connect to that or maybe they just think you're crazy. Whatever. I think though, that won't help adoption in the future, and I think totally like raising awareness or spreading the word is just, we We're at a point that that really has like minimal impact, and like I really rely on our industry to just cut through that noise with excellent products and services, and also the competition in between Bitcoin companies always trying to get more market share and just by virtue of that making their products easier, more accessible, more sexy, whatever it is, and then through, through that is where we're gonna take it to the next level, I believe." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:27", "start": 3507.17, "text": "Yeah, gotcha. And, before we let you go, I know obviously you're at Blockstream I've seen some, stuff about the new green coming out. So, a-and while we were talking about it, I-I guess it came to my mind because from what I've seen of the, the teaser images, I think BTC Sessions might have shared one, and I saw a few images going around. The idea is that you'll have Blockstream Green with on-chain Bitcoin, Lightning, and Liquid all in one. So, can you just explain a little bit, maybe tease a little bit of what you're willing to share, what that's gonna look like for people who are curious?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "59:01", "start": 3541.16, "text": "Recently been, done on Green has been extremely exciting. we kind of like got the UX, we, we, we unified a lot of things so you can basically have, with, with the same key pair, you can have three wallets, like, a liquid wallet, a lightning wallet, and an on-chain wallet. and that's extremely good user experience, for people who are, you know, you know, trying out Green as their very first Bitcoin wallet, I think. The most important thing thing that I also like the real Bitcoiners will know, but it's going to be like a feature that a lot of people aren't really aware of, is the fact that light-- the Lightning feature on Green is, powered by Greenlight, right? So it's actually a Lightning wallet where you hold your own keys. And I think if you take a look around and you take a look at the Lightning wallets that has gotten more traction, they're all custodial for the most part. and I think that is something that needs to be changed, but it doesn't necessarily needs to" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "01:00:00", "start": 3600.92, "text": "To connect your wallet to your node and all of that stuff. I think, s-- again, a product or a service like Greenlight is gonna come to market, and I think it's gonna give a lot of people who aren't really interested or just for whatever reason don't want to or can't, you know, manage their own lightning node can still benefit from, you know, a, a lightning experience that is, you know, secure. I saw Ben the Karmen had a tweet about Saps on Noster being also you know, basically custodial wallets, you know, these things need to change, and obviously people choose those type of wallets because of the user experience, but I think now with the introduction of, of, Lightning on Green, it's like one step towards that direction of like having Lightning for everyone, become an experience where your funds is actually in your control. So I'm super stoked about that, and I think, in BTC Amsterdam, we will be ready with some, some nice announcements." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:57", "start": 3657.79, "text": "Fantastic. Yeah, no, that, that sounds good. But it's good to see, more products and services that are advancing over time, and even Lightning in general is improving a lot over time. I think, probably one other big one is Phoenix, like being a big shift with splicing, and I think that's really gonna change the game in terms of Lightning user experience, but really truly merging on-chain and off-chain, and hopefully with Green, it'll be a slick experience there, and, I guess one other area, just with Green, the idea is with Green, you could also pair it with your Jade So how would that work then in the on-chain wallet, or can you-- could you still have Jade paired with your on-chain but do like Lightning that's like on the phone, or how, how would that look?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "01:01:42", "start": 3702.11, "text": "Yeah, I mean, trying to not get into too technical terms here, but what I can say is that you will soon be able to pair, Green with Jade and perform, swaps. within, within Jane." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:58", "start": 3718.18, "text": "Okay." }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "01:01:59", "start": 3719.24, "text": "and that is a feature that I think a lot of people are gonna love. I, I really can't wait to, to announce that. But it's, yeah, coming soon, tm." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:02:07", "start": 3727.75, "text": "Okay. Cool, cool. Yeah. Well, that's great. okay, so I guess, yeah, let's wrap it up then. So basically, we've been talking about this idea that Bitcoin isn't for everybody, and I guess the, that means we have to focus on who is going to get it first, who's With Bitcoin, maybe something more like ten or fifteen percent, maybe twenty percent on the upside, who w-who can get Bitcoin? So how do we, how do we get to them? So do you have any closing thoughts for people?" }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "01:02:37", "start": 3757.53, "text": "Just find your people. Bitcoin is amazing. Everybody, everybody who is in the space, whether they're like working in Bitcoin or just like following Bitcoin or just hanging out on Twitter or Noster, they know that community aspect of Bitcoin is amazing. the people that you meet literally changes your life, but we have gotten to a point where we're growing, so you're gonna meet a lot of people that don't necessarily fall into your own beliefs, and that is fine. There's still, a use case, for Bitcoin for those people, but if you don't, wanna waste your time or their time, just find your own people, and that's enough. And then, you know, collectively as individuals, orange pillin' people that we actually make an intentional- Attempt to actually find and guide, then I think adoption for the future is gonna be meaningful. if not, don't waste your time. Cool, let, the amazing Bitcoin companies that are working on creating products and services for, for the rest of the world, let them figure out like target audience, cohort, messaging, positioning, all of that. If that is too much for you, but if not, just chill and enjoy life and just be okay with the fact that Bitcoin isn't for everyone, it is for anyone that are willing To listen and learn, but you gotta, you gotta connect on other things, that isn't necessarily only Bitcoin. It goes deeper than that. But yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity, man. I, I-- This is the thing that, a lot of ideas that I've been, thinking about that eventually, led to me writing it down, on, on, on Bitcoin Magazine. But I truly appreciate the, the time that you've given me to just discuss and I loved hearing your thoughts and your feedback on that as well. So thank you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04:19", "start": 3859.62, "text": "Yeah, Show notes and, thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "fernando_nikolic", "time": "01:04:24", "start": 3864.64, "text": "Cool man. Thanks. See you around." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04:27", "start": 3867.21, "text": "Show notes are available at stephanelivera dot com. Make sure to subscribe and hit like if you enjoyed the show. I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }