{ "episodeId": "SLP500", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "andrew_henderson": { "name": "Andrew Henderson", "role": "guest", "tag": "ANDREW" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.45, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics brought to you by Swann dot com. Today, Andrew Henderson, the founder of Nomad Capitalist, rejoins me on the show. So for those of you who don't know, Nomad Capitalist is a business where they help individuals who are looking to do things like build international wealth, get citizenships overseas, residence overseas, and things like this. Andrew and the team also have a very popular YouTube channel, so Andrew re-joins me and we talk about a few concepts that I think are interesting and important for Bitcoiners, things like considering home country bias, looking beyond the headlines and evolution in the market and citizenship, as well as exploring and understanding what's coming with global minimum tax and the so-called international community, and of course, we chat a little bit about their upcoming event, which I'll be attending, which is Nomad Capitalist Live. Before Before we begin, a reminder, Pacific Bitcoin Festival is coming back. Last year it was a conference, this time it's a festival put on by the team at Swann dot com. Now, for those of you who were there last year, I'm sure you know it was a fantastic experience, the feedback was phenomenal, and it's gonna be even bigger and better this time around. This is a celebration of the incredible world of Bitcoin, and it's a thriving community that's working together to forge an awe-inspiring bright orange future. There's an incredible lineup of speakers Max Kaiser and Stacey Herbert, Preston Pish, Greg Foss, Alex Gladstein, Corey Clipston, Lynn Alden, Jimmy Song, and so many more. Now, there's multiple tickets. There's the standard ticket, and of course, there is the VIP ticket. The VIP ticket offers preferred seating and viewing areas, a private lounge for networking and connection, open VIP bar access, and comple- complimentary lunch. This is a phenomenal opportunity to come along and learn about Bitcoin or potentially bring some family or friends along. to the festival. You can find the tickets over at pacificbitcoin dot com. It's over in LA, October 5th and 6th. Use code Livera for a discount there, and I'm looking forward to seeing you there. When it comes to sending Bitcoin on-chain transactions, I always check at mempool dot space so that I can target my fee appropriately. They've got different priority levels, whether you are low, medium, or high priority for that transaction, and you can set the sat per byte fee accordingly. With mempool dot space, you can visualize Bitcoin, so that means you can search transactions, you can even search addresses, you can see things like the Lightning Network and view Lightning nodes. There's even a mining dashboard there. There's all kinds of statistics and things. Things that are being updated continually because the team is just always adding new features. So recently, they've added that the mempool blocks are scrollable even on mobile, they have a visualization of full RBF, and they've got a new feature coming which is the mempool accelerator. So keep an eye out for this. But otherwise, come and check it out over at mempool dot space. And now, onto the show with Andrew. Andrew, it's been a while since we spoke. Welcome back. Thank you. Good to be with you. So lots of things going on. In some ways, you That, you know, the, the walls are closing in, there's a global minimum tax, is it over for nomad capitalism? You know, I, but, I'm sure there are opportunities out there, and I thought it would be great to just start with one common area of focus I, I see. So a lot of people have this conception that where they were born or where they live is the best place, right? Best hospitals, best schools, best roads, best whatever, but they can't all be correct. Now, you have a lot of experience, right? You've been Do you have any insight into why that is? I imagine" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "03:45", "start": 225.01, "text": "the same reason that people I went to school with support the Cleveland Browns, who went 0-16 one year. They won zero. And people still, I still go on Facebook once in a blue moon, and I see people tailgating outside the Browns game. I mean, they're perennial losers, and yet because you're born in or near Cleveland, that's your team. You know, we always kind of complain. My father was like, \"Oh, I don't like these people who are Yankees fans in baseball. Like, oh, it's easy to support the winner. Back in the nineties, the Yankees were the winners. Gotta-- I don't follow it anymore.\" But he's like, I don't like these people who they just find the winner. It's like, well, wait a second, why not? But because you're born in one place, you should support a loser. I just don't believe that's true." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:30", "start": 270.08, "text": "I think that's a great, I think that's a really succinct way to put it. It's find the winner. And to some extent, there are, you know, it's constantly shifting, right? So maybe it's like the winner is, you know, and, and that's just like with sports teams, just" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "04:48", "start": 287.91, "text": "like And from clients, we hear a lot of people who came from, let's say, Eastern European countries. That seems to be the big one. Where they left, some of them are a little bit older, maybe they left thirty years ago, twenty years ago, even ten years ago. And they say, \"You know, this is kind of becoming what we left or what my parents left.\" In, let's say, the United States. I'm not the only one saying that. You watch some of these prognosticators on TV, they have the same conversations, anecdotally, with their taxi drivers, what have you. I came from Hungary, I came from Romania, I came from Bulgaria, I came from Russia, I came from Ukraine. We've had a number of folks who were like, \"Hey, we're getting our citizenship in Canada or whatever, but this is nothing" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "05:34", "start": 333.65, "text": "The bias, you mentioned the global minimum tax. Right now, I mean, if you are in the boat that most of us are in, if you're not making, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars a year, that's not really gonna affect you. I mean, you saw places like the UAE where they introduced a corporate tax for, for mainland companies. if you, you know, fill out the forms correctly, you can, you can be in the free zones and not pay tax. I mean, places like Hong Kong still have, you know, you know, two, two So I, I think that people look at the headlines. Caribbean citizenship is dead was a recent headline. If you're a Westerner, it makes ver-- to me, rather nominal difference some of the changes there. Global minimum tax doesn't really affect you. They see, oh, Americans are taxed no matter where they live. Yes, but you've got exclusions and exemptions, and if you're a business owner, you can defer a lot of that tax and push it away. And so what I've been focused on recently is, take the Russia-Ukraine war as a proxy. I don't You know, countries that, that have a certain kind of view. Fifteen, one five, as in about what, fifteen percent. One in seven people in the world live in a country that's for Ukraine. Now, you can like Ukraine, and that's great, and I'm not saying I don't. Helped a lot of Ukrainians at the beginning with a place to stay. But in most parts of the world, they either don't care or they disagree with you, and those are the countries that nobody in the West, the people that watch me and that watch you, are paying attention to. In fact, they scoff at it. Indonesia, it's the fourth largest population in the world, it's growing. By the way, forget the fact that it's an American, they don't want your business at Singaporean banks anymore by and large. They will take an Indonesian's business from the regional play, and because it comes with far less baggage, they come with far less baggage than So who's really the one who's free? Who's really the one who has options? their passport may not be as good as yours, but there's plenty of emerging wealthy people in a country like Indonesia, and I'm not saying that's the-- that's the place to go, but I'm saying it's gonna be countries like that that you're not even thinking about, and I think it's very easy to dismiss. There's nowhere to go in the world because I looked up north and Canada's even worse than we are. Yeah, we're not talking about Canada, Stephen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:49", "start": 469.02, "text": "That's I think some people are just looking, not very far afield, right? They're just looking at their immediate neighbor, right? If I'm an Australian, oh, look at New Zealand. If I'm an American, look at Canada. It's not, you know, or if you're an American, they may be looking internally within the different states of America, but not externally, right? I think that's a common one as well." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "08:09", "start": 489.48, "text": "Yeah, I mean, how much news do you hear about Dubai, for example? If you're watching our stuff, maybe you start to see Not a bad place to go, but recently talked to a guy, he's going to double his taxes moving to Dubai, 'cause he didn't realize the kind of income he has relies on tax treaties to reduce it. The place the income comes from, there's no tax treaty. So, you know, maybe some places are getting overhyped. But how much news do you see in just the mainstream media, which influences all of us, even if we think it doesn't, about the countries that maybe we're talking about? I'm having an event coming up in Malaysia. Nobody really knows much of anything" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "08:51", "start": 531.26, "text": "I can tell you, in terms of soft freedom, it's one of the best. They leave me alone, some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. the, they opened up during the pandemic in the early days before Florida did. now Florida was more open in twenty twenty one, but just in an immediate, if you, if you wanted to get out, you could have gotten out of Malaysia sooner than you could have gotten out of Florida. And yeah, people are focused on Florida. Someone said yesterday, \"Oh, I don't need this nomad capitalist stuff. I live Just don't pay it to Florida. And people have kind of, you know, that's the narrative, right? To use a Ron DeSantis word, that's the narrative is, \"Oh, there's no income tax.\" Yeah, except that thirty-seven percent you send to Joe Biden, and they wanna raise it. And oh, by the way, forget income tax, they have wanted for over a decade, and they're gaining momentum. If you're an American, they wanna take the cap off of Social Security. I would have a year or two ago, if I were living in the US under tax bill. And do you think I'm gonna get any more than my two thousand dollars a month? No, because even the Republicans, Chris Christie, for example, is saying now, \"Uh, why should Mark Zuckerberg get Social Security?\" So the Democrats are saying Mark Zuckerberg should pay tens-- hundreds of millions of dollars into Social Security. The point is, even beyond the income tax people think about, they point to the global minimum tax 'cause they saw a headline somewhere, and they don't even realize the taxes they're really paying, thinking, \"Oh, I don't pay any income tax.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:21", "start": 621.31, "text": "Yeah, I think it's a great point you make that a lot of people are just headline driven, they don't look into actual details, and that sometimes causes people to make a, a, an error in thinking. So as an example, I saw some stat recently where the people were, you know, I think this is in America, they were estimating how many trans people are there, as an example, right? Not that I'm, you know, getting into that, but they wildly overestimated the number because maybe it's like the number of times they repeat a message, it just makes it people," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:51", "start": 650.99, "text": "Even if that doesn't align with reality, if it's only one or two percent of the population, actually they think in their mind it's thirty percent or something ridiculous." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "10:58", "start": 658.32, "text": "What was the-- Even like Bill Maher mentioned this, like, like Democrats thought that like if you got COVID, there was like a sixty percent chance you'd have to go to the hospital. He's like, it's three or something like that. so that's, you know, I-- Yeah, I mean, headlines. I, I just went to visit a guy about a month ago in Tuscany. Everyone thinks, Italy people say, \"What's this guy? What's he smoking? Taxes are sky high in Italy.\" Well, if you're a foreigner, they've got, for example, among other tax incentives, a lump sum. This guy makes tens of millions of dollars a year, he goes to Italy, he pays a flat one hundred thousand euros, and that's all he has to pay for the next, fifteen years. They have a carve out because what ninety-nine point whatever percent of Italians aren't paying a hundred thousand euros in tax, so they said, \"Hey, we'll take the Swiss And, hey, listen, if you wanna come and live here, that's enough to cover the roads and the bridges and everything else. And, you know, but, but people look at the headlines, they look at the Dubai, for example, they don't realize, hey, you might pay less tax in Italy or in Ireland, than you would in, in Dubai, because everything is headline driven. And I think that, it's getting beyond those headlines that's the key to what we would say, going where you're treated best." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:19", "start": 738.93, "text": "Right. And so one other Area when it comes to, citizenship by investment, like as we were talking a little bit about it, and you, you touched on this, there's been some news recently that certain Caribbean nations may have UK visa-free access taken away, and there was also speculation that it may be, may happen also in the EU, and then we saw the response, I think Saint Kitts raised the price and said, \"We're going to do a little bit more due diligence.\" Do you have any views to share on that? Do you just think that's the future of it? It's going to be increased" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "12:49", "start": 769.34, "text": "Yeah, and I made-- we've been saying that since the beginning of the pandemic, and I made a video, our number one video on YouTube, three point six million views, the US plan to kill second citizenship, and I kind of mentioned some of this stuff coming. We made another video about how second citizenship would be dead in early twenty twenty-two. You know, obviously that's a little sensational, and people said it was fearmongering. They said, \"Oh, no, no, no, the prices are only gonna come down, it's capitalism.\" And I said, \"No, And supply doesn't matter, the price will go up as compliance demands go up. So Dominica, which was considered, you know, they had their, they had a few issues over the years, in the press, so they, they got singled out to be removed from the UK visa free travel list. And then Vanuatu in the South Pacific, that's not a Caribbean one, but it's a different citizenship program. I would almost never recommend that, unless it's just like a collector of citizenships or something, or you just have no other option I mean, Vanuatu is good as a, as a super duper Plan B, but it's not your first, second passport. So they lost access to the UK. Will the others? I don't know, we'll see. The Commonwealth always, you know, there, there, these are Commonwealth countries always had a very strong relationship with the UK. Will Europe? Well, the US made a deal that if they started doing interviews of applicants, which I don't think is a huge deal, it's a, it's an inconvenience, but if you have," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "14:16", "start": 856.4, "text": "you know, it is With Europe. If the US can't keep their word on that, all the more reason you want a plan B away from that country or anyone that's in close quarters with it. Europe has come out and said now some of the same things, including double your price. Saint Kitts responded by saying, \"Okay, we'll do that immediately.\" They've always liked to charge more than other countries, so I'm not entirely surprised. So apparently, you know, there will be an option that can go to UK, that can go to Europe, and you'll just pay more for it. The others will follow suit, or they won't. Maybe Europe will crack down, maybe they won't. By the way, getting a residence permit to live in Europe, if that's your goal, isn't difficult. There's a lot of countries. The UK, last time I was there, they wanted-- They asked me a bunch of questions, \" The UK isn't the world's easiest feat, and there's no investor or, entrepreneur visa programs to speak of. So the UK is a country that's just kind of tough to get into overall. Europe in general, I think, is much more open. And so I think if I'm a Westerner and I have another passport I can go to Europe on, I'm not that worried. I'm not that worried overall. certainly if I'm Chinese and this is my only ticket in, then I either get a residence permit or I get a visa, which isn't that hard Keep in mind, in twenty twenty-four, all the people who just show up in Europe now will need to get EDIUS, which is an, a, a, a pre-clearance, and it's gonna be kind of like ESTA in the United States, and it's gonna ask you a bunch of questions, and it's gonna be more than most Americans have done. So just going to Europe as an American, the media's saying, is gonna be more difficult. It's not really a visa, but it's more difficult than some visas. So, you know, I think that Western countries are increasingly becoming isolated. The US, Canada, and Australia and New Zealand already have that. I think that, you know, the opportunity-- I don't think there'll be huge issues with this, maybe I'll be wrong, but I think that people ought to start looking towards the places where we talk about, the Mexicos, the Colombias, the Malaises, the UAEs, the Serbiases, the Mauritius. Those countries don't care. They want you if you have wealth, right? Isn't that-- isn't that-- Oh, you have money, please step right in, we'd love to have you here. Don't, wouldn't you like a backup plan against the countries that are like, \"You disgusting animal, you and your filthy money, you think we want you in Europe, you swine? Go over there! Like, is that, if that's what it comes to, maybe you won't be buying chocolates in Zurich. I think you'll be fine. But, I mean, at a certain point, why is it we're so married to, \"I have to go to Zurich and not to Kuala Lumpur?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:05", "start": 1025.02, "text": "Yeah, I think it's a, it's a great point, and it's interesting to see some of the, what seems to be some of the mindsets coming out of, let's say, the UK and some of the EU, where it's sort of seen like, \"Oh, you shouldn't be buying your access in, you have to, you know, go through this other pathway.\" but I'm also curious your views because I wonder, is there to some extent, like a life cycle to these things that, you know, as a country, maybe, you know, if you went And so maybe there's a life cycle to that, and actually as certain countries maybe they, they start to price it higher and higher, there may be new countries who kind of come up and say, \"Hey, we'll have a program,\" you know, maybe it's Africa or somewhere else." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "17:46", "start": 1066.35, "text": "Yeah. H-Here's my thoughts on, on-- I mean, we're, we're in a multipolar world, and so when I, you know, I'm not on the extreme level of the dollar's going to, to, to zero with a bullet, but if you look at, you know" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "18:05", "start": 1085.0, "text": "Yen recently. Alright, it's not going to one player. That's what people miss. Oh, what's gonna overtake the dollar? Nothing. Lots of little things, death by a thousand cuts, slowly but surely. So thirty years ago, yeah, Singapore, please come right in, start a business, we'd love to have you. Now they just raise the numbers. I mean, the highest numbers, if you're just a passive investor, it could be nine figures to live in Singapore. Yes, there are cheaper ways to do it, including business with some restrictions, but on the highest level" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "18:35", "start": 1115.14, "text": "They don't, they don't need more people. They need only the creme de la creme. So what replaces that? The country that you would have looked askance at, just like you looked askance at Singapore, South Korea thirty years ago or forty years ago, it's a country like that. Yes, there is a new residence by investment program, it's fifty thousand dollars, you buy fifty thousand dollars in real estate, please come right in. It's Egypt. Egypt, I'm starving. Well, that's probably what you would have said about Singapore all those years ago when they, Malaysia? Why would I go there? I mean, look at pictures of Singapore in the seventies, it ain't Singapore today. You had to have a little bit of foresight. People go to Georgia, you know, one of the easiest places in the world to bank. It isn't a cheap place to live anymore, so the value for someone seeking value is probably not there, but it's still tax friendly. They just recently increased the price of their tax program, but, if you live there full time, doesn't really matter, it's still, still a good deal." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "19:35", "start": 1175.0, "text": "Equation. There's not gonna be one, you know, perfect place. The UAE perhaps is a contender, but there's really no citizenship for most people yet. they are starting to open up a little bit there. Kevin O'Leary, for example, got given, it was given Emirati citizenship by exception, but that's not gonna help the average person. you know, so I, I, I think it's a matter of, you know, getting your eggs in some different baskets and accepting you're either gonna pay a higher price or you're gonna get something It's realizing that the vast majority of your competition is people investing from countries you've never heard of. The fact, it, it's like people who, in New York City in, in '84, who said, \"I don't know how Reagan won. Nobody I know voted for him. No one else I know in the US or very few people, they're not doing this stuff.\" Yeah, everyone in all those other countries I mentioned, they're all doing this. They all want options and they're willing to pay for it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:30", "start": 1230.26, "text": "Yeah, it comes to, selection bias, concept known as home country bias, and that's a thing from the world of investing, where a lot of people-- and I know this, when I was back in Australia, it was a common thing that people just invested in the Australian stock market, they didn't invest in the global stock market because they had home country bias. And in the same, in the same way, when it comes to citizenships, residency, setting up your company, you name it, people exhibit a lot of this same home country bias. And I think we are moving into a world where there are options. Yes, there And even for people who aren't super rich, there are a lot of nomad, you know, digital nomad programs and things like this that are even making it accessible for people who are willing to, let's say, go for an up and coming place." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "21:17", "start": 1276.91, "text": "Well, by the way, you see Australia fell off the list of free countries this year. they're not even in the free category anymore economically. And by the way, listen, I own a few Australian stocks, but I don't have a bias. I looked at the entire landscape of stocks. I have part of my portfolio" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "21:35", "start": 1294.96, "text": "I wanted to say, okay, let me, let me reinvest the company's money, and I'll have a portfolio of, of boring stuff that just pays me to live. And yeah, I'll throw a few Australian stocks in there, but it's not because I was biased towards that. In fact, it's actually, I don't have very many, because the conditions aren't as favorable. There are just a few really great stocks that I like that overcomes their higher dividend tax that a country like Hong Kong or Singapore doesn't have. And so I, I threw a few of those in there financial piece comes in. You can move to countries in Europe, let's take Portugal for example. Portugal has visas, you can move there, you basically just have to show you have a few bucks, but then you have to live there. And if you don't live there, they're not gonna renew you, and you won't get citizenship. If you go through the golden visa, which has now been brought back, minus primarily the real estate investment option, then you only need to spend about a week there per year and you're on the track to citizenship. Now, they've been rather inefficient, unfortunately, in issuing those. But the point is, if you're willing to invest, not, not pay, but invest a larger sum in the mid-six figures, you can, get better conditions. If you don't have the money to invest, you can still get in, but you're gonna have to- To, you know, to put in the time. And so, you know, it's like anything else, you know, do you want fast, easy or cheap? You don't get fast, easy and cheap all in one, all in one thing. And so I think we're seeing, you know, that change. If you want the one of the best second passports in the world, you spend about a million dollars all in and you can become Maltese, in fifteen or eighteen months. It's an EU country, it's tax favorable, they don't tax you if you London, for example, I mean, it's really a nice thing to have. that's an example of what it's gonna cost. And so there's always gonna be options to move places, that's more open than ever. But is it gonna be somewhere that doesn't, doesn't require you to live there, plus gives you a great citizenship, plus gives you this, that? No, no, no, you know, that's not gonna happen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:38", "start": 1417.98, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Are you looking to learn to build with Bitcoin? Well, check out base fifty eight dot info. Base fifty eight is a Bitcoin protocol school by Lisa Nighot, aka Nifty Nine, and this is the place to get guidance in your Bitcoin developer education if you are already working in the space or potentially you are looking to get a job in the space or maybe you're just looking to brush up your skills. Base fifty eight has classes and materials ranging from beginner developers all the way up to expert level classes. There are online classes as well. As in person intensive classes where you can learn in a safe, guided pathway from Bitcoin and Lightning experts. You don't have to go out there and hack it all on your own. The Taproot intensive in person class is coming up soon, and it'll cover using Taproot, Tapscript, Schnorr, Frost, and MuSig 2. This in person Taproot intensive class is coming up just prior to TabCon in Atlanta, so this is on the fourth to the sixth of September, and this class is on again in Austin, Texas, thirteenth to fifteenth of November. So go to Base Info or see the link in the description to sign up and learn about Bitcoin development. And finally, coinkite dot com is where you should go to get your Bitcoin hardware security devices and accessories. Over at coinkite dot com, they sell the Coldcard. This is a very well-loved Bitcoin hardware security device by Bitcoiners. It's got two secure elements, it has NFC support, but that's off by default. It has more RAM and CPU. It's a very reliable performer, and it can work in all kinds of configurations. Configurations, you can use it in single signature, you can do things like have a passphrase, you can do things like have a brick me pin, a device pin that will actually wipe the device. Now, of course, you can use it in a multi-signature setup also, so there's all kinds of ways you can use the device, but don't be intimidated, it is also available and accessible to people who are first-time self-custody practitioners. You can take your coins off the exchange by using a cold card, you can just get a cable, a USB-C cable to plug it in Your computer and use it easily with software like Sparrow Wallet, Specter Desktop, or Nunchuk. Go to coinkite dot com and use the code Livera to get some cold cards for yourself or potentially for your family and friends. And now back to the show. I'm curious as well around, you may have heard, there's been a lot of talk about the demographic collapse, right? That, Elon is talking about it, and various people are talking about this idea that, you know, the, the demographic pyramid that used to be is becoming more like a, a cylinder, and some countries are trying to make up for that with immigration. But we also know that immigration is going to tap out eventually, and so I'm curious if you believe that will force countries to be a bit more competitive in some ways to attract people?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "26:21", "start": 1581.29, "text": "I don't claim to be a demograp- demography- I don't claim to be a demographics expert, I've certainly heard that argument a number of times. you know, my understanding was we were gonna cap out at somewhere like ten billion and then you'd have certain efficiencies and You know, some of the countries and, and people would, you know, give birth to fewer children in future generations. I mean, I'm spending some time in Ireland these days. I mean, Ireland, they need seventy thousand jobs, housing is very expensive, so it's hard to get some of the people to come there. But p-- countries need immigration, and so Ireland has taken, I think, a very friendly approach towards doing that. I found them to be extraordinarily friendly for a developed country to deal with, and I think that, you know, it's that kind of competition that's What I like about Ireland and what I like about Switzerland, as countries in the West, in Europe, in a region I'm not a huge fan of, is they have a size, they have a history, they have a culture that says, \"Let's be competitive. Let's be the place that handles people's capital. Let's, you know, Ireland has a sense of humility about it in the culture that is different from some of the European countries, it's certainly different from the US.\" I've shared, I came across some data recently, if you are applying for a certain kind Currently going in for an appointment you scheduled in mid nineteen ninety-eight, twenty-five years later. Come on in, we're ready for you. Now, that's not everybody, but that's a certain kind of person getting a certain kind of residence permit from India, 'cause there's too many Indians. Don't you think a lot of those folks would just go somewhere else? And don't you think some of those folks are pretty talented? And so the more competition that opens up, the fewer people that are gonna say, \"You know what? I'm gonna wait even two years to go to the US.\"" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "28:03", "start": 1683.26, "text": "All I hear them ever talking about is having to sue the government to get a decision on their cases. Meanwhile, in, in Ireland, for example, I got a decision in two months. They made a typographical error, we said, \"Hey, you made an error. Oh, we're very, very sorry. It was fixed within twenty-four hours.\" Difference in how you run your country. And I, I just think that, I mean, who wants to be treated like garbage? I, I just think, you know, now some people, yes, particularly let's say Central America, There will always be some of that. Now, if you're in the US, you don't hear that. For some people in Turkey, for example, Germany's the goal, or, you know, whatever. For simple us, everyone has a different goal. You hear the people coming to your country. But, I mean, millionaire migration, we talk about this, it's a big thing. Yeah, they're moving out of Russia, they're moving out of China. I mean, there's also rich people moving into the US. Thousands of people give up their citizenship every year, let alone move. And I think, yeah, I mean, where I think they'll actually be allowed to get away with more competition is in these larger blocs like the EU, which is why I think for certain people getting, let's say, a Malta passport wouldn't be the worst. If you're willing to live somewhere in Europe, they'll say, \"All right, we're not gonna bag you for taxes as long as you live in one of these countries we like.\" And then you go and live in a country that taxes you one or two percent within Europe. Anyway, I, I just think competition's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:34", "start": 1773.62, "text": "Yeah, I think it's an attitude and culture issue for certain countries that maybe they, they have this resting on their laurels mindset as opposed to, continually innovating and continually trying to stay competitive mindset, which, you know, maybe it's not-- you can't pin the, you can't point it at one person, but maybe it's a broader cultural thing." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "29:54", "start": 1794.38, "text": "Well, that's the whole point of government and bureaucracy, right? But I was watching a Jay Leno interview yesterday where he says, \"Why don't I own a Ferrari? \" The guy owns a million cars. 'Cause they like make you wait in a line, and they make you buy two crappy cars before you can buy the car you want, then you've got to pay them twenty-five grand, like in an envelope, then in two years you got to come back and pay them another twenty-five. He's like, \"I don't need-- I just bought a McLaren. I don't need this, right? \" And I just think that there's certain, you know, governments act that way sometimes, like, \"Oh, you know, they'll do anything we ask. Oh, get on your knees" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:31", "start": 1830.82, "text": "and how quickly parts of the world have changed, and, some parts of the world have really come up a lot in those thirty years, and now there's all these opportunities and options out there, and I think a lot of people are just sort of coasting on fumes or certain countries, if, if I, if you could, you know, anthropomorphize them, that, yeah, they're having this kind of" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "30:51", "start": 1850.62, "text": "mindset. W-w" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "31:03", "start": 1863.28, "text": "Ago, the US would go down, the West would go down, and indexes, Asian countries, others would rise. You have formerly communist countries in our lifetime that were communists that are now more free than the United States on numerous metrics, and you see people in the US who are saying, \"My wages are stagnant, I'm not making more money, I'm having a hard time.\" That's why you're seeing some of the civil unrest, that's why you're seeing, I think, a push probably to more liberal economic policies that are gonna make it harder for people, that it's gonna create Better off now than they were thirty years ago, and perhaps some of that came at the expense of the US, not in a bad way, in my opinion. I don't think that just because you're, what, just because you're from the US, you should get sixty thousand dollars a year to, to just push a mop? No. If someone over here can do the job, why should they toil in poverty just so you can have three cars in the driveway of your suburban house? People like me and you can hire anywhere, and I do, and the US makes it disadvantageous for me to I don't. Meanwhile, I hire people that, you know, I mean, the cost, the, the, the wages in these other countries has done very well, and so you see people, there's a middle class in Asia, even in Africa now, in part because you actually have to, again, be competitive. Yeah. And so what does-- I mean, is Malaysia a better place to live now than it was thirty years ago?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:24", "start": 1944.16, "text": "Yeah, for sure. so yeah, I mean, I, I agree with you there for sure. I think one area that might" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:33", "start": 1953.32, "text": "Now, there's been a lot of talk about this. There's been certain, you know, there, there is arguably a war on cash going on. Do you have any thoughts around the timelines for that? do you think that maybe there are some countries that are better at, let's say, resisting CBDC or because the culture is more cash focused? Do you have any views on CBDC and timelines for that kind of thing?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "32:53", "start": 1973.3, "text": "Well, I mean, go to Hong Kong Chinese New Year and watch, if they can't put the cash through the window, they've gotta bring it around in a" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "33:03", "start": 1983.26, "text": "Parts of the, the Middle East, the Gulf. I have a friend as a banker in, in, in the UAE. He said, \"War on Cash.\" Really? I just had a guy with a pallet I had to sign off on the other day, that came in. Eastern Europe, I mean, formerly communist countries, I think that-- I mean, not all of them, but many of them. I think there's also places where, I mean, take Mexico, for example, and their response to COVID. You had a left-leaning president that" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "33:33", "start": 2013.32, "text": "A lot of our people are working basically in the, in the gray economy. we have to let them go out and make a living. you think those people are, are banked? I mean, that's, that's the whole scam about it in the Western countries. Most people in the US don't not have a bank account because it's like, oh, it's so hard. It's like, they don't want a bank account. And so the idea that CBDCs are gonna like swoop in and help them, like, I was trying to avoid that system. You" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "34:03", "start": 2043.28, "text": "Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, whatever in some of these emerging countries. You know, my philosophy is, I'm less worried about the Saint Lucian central bank digital currency than I am the US or the EU or the UK, where they've-- I mean, just look at the UK, they were, they, they were caught lying through their teeth. I don't think that even if you have one in some of these smaller countries, it's gonna be an issue. We have seen, like, was it Slovakia recently said, \"We're not gonna, we're gonna make sure you can't get rid" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "34:33", "start": 2073.38, "text": "History, you'll see other countries in that region going the same direction. There's no CBDC in Serbia. I have a home in Serbia. Serbia isn't the perfect place, but I'll tell you what, people want to be left alone there. They want to live conservative lives. they're probably not big fans of immigration, but I think they tolerate it, I guess, from people that they believe are, you know, higher up the food chain is how I would describe it than they are. That's how a lot of those kinds of countries operate. In fact, they're even talking about" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "35:04", "start": 2103.64, "text": "We'll see if they do that. But that's the kind of country that you're, that you're not gonna be able to go to. And so again, I, I really think it's gonna be a time for choosing eventually. If you want a conservative country, where people act conservatively and, and just all the stuff people say they want, it's gonna look something like Serbia. They ain't gettin' rid of meat in Serbia, okay? They have nothing but meat. Like, hey, can I ever get a vegetable? What are you talking about vegetables? Have more meat. they're probably not getting on a CBDC. They don't want the EU telling them what to do. That's the kind of place you're gonna go. Probably some places in Africa. But I mean, some of these countries also are just so far off the grid. We had guys multimillionaires moving to like Nicaragua during the pandemic, 'cause it was tax friendly, it was open, it was leave me alone. That's what it's gonna be. I, you know, I mean, like an alcoholic, the US isn't gonna change until, until it hits rock bottom." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:01", "start": 2160.61, "text": "Yeah. Countries that have a stronger cash culture, right? I'm, I'm actually in Dubai, I'm in the UAE myself, and certainly, obviously I'm a Bitcoin guy, so of course I'll use Bitcoin where I can, but if I can't, I'll, I like to use cash. and I know parts of Latin America, parts of Asia, I like that too, that they, there's a strong cash economy. And so it's funny that I see news, you know, and I see, you, you might have seen it as well, in Australia, A certain amount out, and you need to explain why you're taking all this money, a cash out, whereas in other countries, it's just not like that. It's just on the ground, and you pay with cash." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "36:42", "start": 2201.88, "text": "I was-- I don't-- obviously, there's no panacea. And obviously, you see some countries where they're like, \"Hey, I mean, I think Georgia did a great job with digital payments very early on. I mean, a decade ago, they were really doing a great job. By the way, I think the first country to put their entire like title," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "37:03", "start": 2222.96, "text": "Everyone focuses on, you know, in the West, when they talk about the international community is with us, it's fifteen percent of the world's population, and people will tell me, \"Oh, got it. The way to survive is go to a third world country.\" No, not what I'm saying. you're probably not gonna go to, to China or to India. not, I mean, I've been to those countries. I mean, yeah, I mean, maybe China's getting a little, but, I mean, there's two hundred and fifty-two sovereign countries. Autonomous jurisdictions in the world. I'm guessing one is better than where you're at and gives you the stuff you want. I mean, out of two hundred and fifty-two, yours ain't number one in, in all the criteria, and it's probably number one in none of the criteria. So listen, banks around the world do what bankers do. but guess what? If you're an American and you wanna leave the US, you don't have to give up your US bank accounts, some other people do in other countries, but you can bank in the US if that's what you wanna do American or Australian, I'm saying at least have some diversification, have a passport, have a residence permit, have another bank account, maybe you want stronger asset protection in a trust if you have a certain amount of money. If your business is, you know, in your country and it can be run from anywhere, maybe you move that offshore. Now, if you don't move offshore, you're not gonna save taxes, but we have some people who just say, \"I just want the asset protection, I wanna hire people there, it's a better deal for me, even if I pay taxes" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "38:33", "start": 2312.92, "text": "step closer to where they're covered. And so if you got a bank account in the UAE, whether your money's at home or your money's in the UAE, it's probably not a big difference in terms of the safety of the money. maybe it's even safer there for some people. But, you know, it, it just to me it comes down to we're all thinking in that fifteen percent bubble, and that's the problem. Yeah. Yeah, that, that fifteen percent may be screwed in the scenario you lay out." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:59", "start": 2338.51, "text": "Yeah. And it's funny because as you The global minimum tax, the corporation thing, and then you sort of-- And then I realized, oh, wait, no, you're talking about the international community, right? Because that's another interesting angle, and I think they're kind of related in a way, right? Because people, might be worried that, okay, you know, it starts out a very high threshold, but then over-- of course, it comes down over time, right? And so just like the AML ten thousand dollar reporting threshold used to be something like seventy thousand dollars in today's terms or something like this, and Right. So then that might make people scared that, okay, even if I try to go somewhere else, they're still gonna hit me with global minimum tax in ten years' time. What should I do about that, right? Now, what would you say to that? Do you, do-- Would you say a similar kind of answer that, look, really, that's the international community per se, and, you know, that, that's not necessarily gonna apply everywhere?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "39:53", "start": 2393.37, "text": "I mean, first of all, if you paid fifteen percent tax and you had no dividend tax, you're still paying less Burden with something like forty-two or forty-three percent at the peak, and I lived in a relatively low tax state. you know, I, I talk to people sometimes, they're paying half of their income to live in these countries. So to go to fifteen, I'm not saying everyone should pay zero tax. We have people who come to us, we've helped people move to thirty-one different tax-friendly countries. some people are like, \"Hey, listen, keep it under ten. I don't wanna live in a desert. I don't wanna live in a tropical island. You" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "40:33", "start": 2432.9, "text": "Automatic improvement if you can do what you want with the money afterwards. In terms of, you know, waiting ten years, I don't know about you, I mean, I, I plan to make a lot of money in the next ten years. And so, I mean, what's Robert Hirschbeck, on Shark Tank says, nothing wrong with making a whack of cash. Oh, the woes that would, that would, that would befall you if you were able to save twenty or thirty million dollars in the next ten years and then the rules changed. I mean, I" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "41:03", "start": 2462.94, "text": "Got all the passports and got, it's like, I wanna kill myself getting one. One guy told me. I guess that's what we help people do. But I, I, I just think it's, I'm a, I've always been very entrepreneurial, and I just have a great distaste for this defeatism. You know, if everything's gonna end, don't you wanna go down fighting? I think your best chance fighting is to go somewhere where the conditions are better, rather than think you're gonna sit around with your guns on the top of your house in Arizona or something." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "41:33", "start": 2492.92, "text": "So for me, I'd rather be with Doug Casey sitting in Uruguay somewhere, as they says, watching it on my big screen TV, because I just fundamentally don't believe that every country thinks the way the United States does. I just fundamentally don't. And, and let's talk about the war again. The ruble is down after being way up, after being the best performing currency of twenty twenty-two, the ruble's down again versus the, when the war started. I know some people in Russia, you know, I'm married to a Russian, you know, I don't know that Their lives are so miserable. this idea that like everybody needs the West, I think is fundamentally flawed, and you're seeing people who don't want the West. And listen, let's take some of the folks who are more politically conservative in the US, here's your opportunity, it's in Serbia, it's in that part of the world. There's your politically conservative culture. It is all the stuff you say you want. You wanna go there or not? Or you wanna sit and hope that your country's gonna turn on a dime? I, I just don't, I don't This idea, I'm gonna just sit at home and just be angry my entire life. And I worked in talk radio for many years, I had a business in the talk radio space. Some of those folks I can tell you do just want to be angry. The worst thing that could ever happen to them is, is they'd be happy. And I, I, I just think if you wanna be happy, there's a, there's a geographic solution for that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:52", "start": 2572.08, "text": "Yeah, great. one question, obviously more related for my Bitcoiner audience, probably many of them will be thinking about retaining Bitcoin exposure, but at the same time, for some different programs, they may need to show assets inside the fiat system, right? And obviously, I'm sure you've probably dealt with this for some of your clients or many of your clients. do you have any tips for people to consider on that? is it just a Of deciding, okay, I'm comfortable with this much, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna have that much in the fiat system so that I can pass these checks or hurdles." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "43:23", "start": 2603.3, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's as simple as just having an account. I mean, my, my philosophy is, I do want a little bit of diversification. I understand some folks are all in on Bitcoin, but, you know, if you wanna do this stuff, it's the price of admission. And I look at it and say, what's my ROI? Yeah. I" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "43:46", "start": 2626.11, "text": "When you're done, you're golden, you're covered. Who knows when you'll need it? No, it'll be cheaper. Well, now the price of citizenship is going up and the value of a Bitcoin is lower. And I just think the best time to just get in is you, you just bite the bullet a little bit, you get in, you set aside whatever it is. I mean, again, if you wanna move to, you know, if it's, if it's, if it's somewhere in Latin America, maybe you need a, a year's of bank statements showing that you" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "44:16", "start": 2656.29, "text": "A little bit. They don't wanna see it, you know, the day before. You know, so anywhere from twenty five to a couple hundred thousand dollars, and you just accept that's the price of, of admission because, you know, we have a great opportunity right now. What was, Bitcoin thirteen, fourteen months ago? Right about where it is now, I think. if you bought it thirteen, fourteen months ago, you can now exit your country's tax system without an exit tax, 'cause you have no, no, no, no capital gain. you if you believe that asset values are gonna increase dramatically, then, you know, setting aside a little bit of money now, it is a simple ROI calculation. That is, I think maybe a group that's gonna be hurt by any increases in Caribbean citizenship, because, you know, that was the group that said, \"I'd rather donate one hundred and fifty thousand dollars than invest four hundred in Turkey, even if I'll get the four hundred back later, the two fifty opportunity cost for three or four years isn't worth it.\" So we run those numbers with people, but I think it goes To my saying, and this stuff always gets more expensive, the options over time will either become more expensive or they'll go away. Citizenship, residences, they historically go away or the price goes dramatically up. rarely does it get cheaper. Egypt will come in for fifty grand, great, that's what you want? Fantastic. But I just think people have to bite a little bit of a bullet because it's a greater perspective of savings and of freedom." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:39", "start": 2739.19, "text": "Yeah, I think it's a totally fair point about ROI, as, you know, even excluding Bitcoin, that's just something people have to think about Anyway, so look, let's, and I'll, I'll, I'll," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "45:49", "start": 2748.99, "text": "I'll add this if I, if I may. You know, look at how people in these fifteen percent, you know, especially in the Western countries, when they say, \"Oh, you can't accept Bitcoin for this,\" you think Starbucks is gonna argue with the government? They're gonna fall right in line. So I want this stuff set up earlier, even if that means, you know, it cost me a little bit of money, you know, that's my pragmatic view." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:10", "start": 2769.95, "text": "Right. Yeah" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:16", "start": 2776.19, "text": "About Nomad Capitalist Live, so this is coming up, I'm gonna be there of course, but, let's hear it from you. What, what, what can people expect at Nomad Capitalist Live?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "46:24", "start": 2783.72, "text": "Well, Nomad Capitalist Live is our annual event. It's designed, whether you have a seven or eight figure, you know, income or net worth, that we normally work with those folks, whether you're there and you're just exploring, or whether you're not yet, there yet, come and learn the R&D, come and learn the changes. Harder. Here's what's easier. Here's a new program, but it's basically, four days of pretty much non-stop information and non-stop networking on increasing your finance, your freedom, and your lifestyle using internationalization tactics. Whether it's bank accounts, whether it's, you know, vaults, whether it's residence, citizenship, lifestyle, we try and provide some color commentary. We've got some keynote speakers such as yourself. We've got Jim Rogers, the venture capitalist. we've got- We got a lot of, you know, Mark Faber, a lot of big names are coming, but it's also our team that's in the trenches with people saying, \"You wanna run your company overseas? Here's seven problems we've had, and we've seen people have, don't do these things. Hey, here's five new residences you've never heard of, and nobody can sponsor it, nobody, can pay to speak. So it's a premium ticket because there's nothing for sale. If you wanna work with us, you can. We'll have a few of our But no one's gonna be selling anything on the stage. You know, we've got one day that starts at eight in the morning and goes till like ten thirty at night. I, I wanna jam this in so that anybody can come and learn a lot. but anyway, it's happening September sixth through the ninth in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. it's worth the trip in my opinion. Malaysia is incredibly affordable right now. the five star hotel we're at, colonial style, the Majestic Hotel, one of my favorites in the world, less than a hundred bucks a night Get a full health checkup at Prince Court Medical Center for three hundred bucks. We've got about forty people, I think, doing that, that we've helped them set it up to do an A to Z physical. it probably cost you five to ten grand somewhere else. so I just think, you know, it's in Malaysia 'cause I wanted to show people Malaysia. I've been there for a decade, and it is a little bit further for some folks, but, I think you'll discover the alternative that we're talking about. English speaking, friendly people, very open you know, if you're not Malaysian Muslim and you wanna have half your culo showing from your shorts, nobody's gonna bother you. I know you like to do that, you like to sometimes, you know, wear the little short shorts. But, I, I'm just a big fan, and I think that, you know, our brand is about things that I've done and that I wish other people could save the legwork. And I think Kuala Lumpur is a great place to see, and this is a four-day event that, I don't think we've had a single" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "49:12", "start": 2951.57, "text": "And the people you'll meet are incredible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:14", "start": 2953.59, "text": "Yeah, and I think the other aspect that's, I, I personally will find interesting is also the chance to just network and just chat with other like-minded people, because sometimes, yeah, it can be difficult to connect with a certain kind of person, and I think sometimes when you go to that kind of conference, actually, it's also, it's, ob-obviously, I'm sure the talks and the content will be great up on the stage, but it's also about the networking and the people you meet in the side cor-corridors element also the networking." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "49:44", "start": 2983.77, "text": "We've always had, I mean, Robert Kiyosaki was there two years ago, talked to every single person there. Nigel Ferrods was there last year, I think, talked to almost everybody there. I mean, people really get out there. And you know, what's great about Malaysia, the pastime is eating. So we actually had to cut back on some of the eating 'cause they're like, they wanted us to have breakfast, lunch, three snack breaks, and then we do a dinner on Thursday. Like, that's a little bit too much I think it is a little bit further, and so you're getting people who are really dedicated to this. But one of the things I've heard for years from people is, \"I'm the only one who thinks this way. I don't know too many other people who agree. My family thinks I'm kind of nuts. Why do you want a second passport? The US is the best place on earth. Here you're gonna find people who you fit right in with. They realize what's happening.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:32", "start": 3032.48, "text": "Yeah, fantastic. Alright, well, I think that's a good spot to finish there. if What, what, what do you think the, the message should be for them?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "50:44", "start": 3044.01, "text": "Well, I always say go where you're treated best. Eliminating what you call the, the, the hometown bias, I think it's very important. It is a big mindset issue. I like to talk about mindset sometimes because that's where people get hung up. The program you choose, the bank you go with, whatever it is, that, that can all be dealt with, but you've gotta have the right perspective that, as much as it hurts, facing reality, in my opinion, is always better." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "51:12", "start": 3072.11, "text": "You know, the numbers aren't going in the right direction for Western countries. It doesn't mean I hate the Western countries, it doesn't mean you have to hate them. Maybe you can go back and visit your country. Maybe you're not even ready to move yet, you just want a plan B. But acknowledging that there's a lot of competitive offerings out there and that your country in the time of not much competition got a little lazy, I think is a reasonable thing to do, and it's something that everyone should, should handle to their means. You know, if you have, if you don't Bank account in Georgia, maybe get a residence permit in Latin America, Mexico or something like that, see how that plays out. If you have more money, do more stuff. Get citizenship in six months, get multiple residence permits, get bigger banks, make investments. The sky is the limit, but, you know, if you think, am I going where I'm treated best? Not better, not a little better, not how they tolerate me. Is this the best place for X, my money, my family, my safety, my whatever? And, and act accordingly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:14", "start": 3133.85, "text": "Fantastic. Well, I think that's a great spot to finish up. Andrew, thank you for joining me, and, I'm looking forward to hanging out in, KL. We will do it. Find the show notes over at stephanlivera dot com slash five hundred. I hope you enjoyed the show, and if you did, please do share it out there, give it a like and thumbs up on YouTube, and give it a good review. Thanks, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }