{ "episodeId": "SLP514", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "stephan_livera": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "guest", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.37, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics brought to you by swan dot com. Today, we're back to the topic of homeschooling. Are you interested in spending sixteen thousand more hours with your children? I think this is an interesting appeal on homeschooling, and I talk with some experts on this topic, Jonathan and Adriana Prescott, who recently wrote a book called Kids Don't need school. So here is my discussion with Jonathan and Adriana. Hi, Jonathan and Adriana. It's a pleasure to, speak with you. I had the pleasure of reading your book, Kids Don't Need School, and, I've been enjoying some of your opinions on, homeschooling as well. I, I guess, you know, cards on the table, I am a libertarian and pro homeschooling myself. I recently had a son. My son is very young though, he's only seven months, but I intend to homeschool." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:59", "start": 59.12, "text": "and so Up with you guys, but I like the perspective that you have to share and, I'm interested to, you know, dig into that a little bit more. So welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:09", "start": 68.85, "text": "Thank you very much. Congratulations." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:11", "start": 71.23, "text": "Well, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. And so, let's start with you guys. I wanna hear a little bit of your story of how you got started with homeschooling for yourselves. I guess, well, I guess, were you- Were you guys personally homeschooled yourself, or did you actually start with your child?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:29", "start": 89.43, "text": "Okay. Ru, I'll, I'll do a, a brief little thing on that. We started homeschooling, when our daughter was, was very young because we discovered she started reading at a very early age. She started reading her first words at ten months old. And so that was, we're, we're both engineers, and so we realized somebody's gonna have to stay home, because this is what they call asynchronous development, where, you know, you have a, a child, showing an incredible adva-advancement in something, but everywhere else in their development, they're just right on, on cue, or sometimes even a little behind, but the, we, we saw that there's public school can't handle this, private school can't handle this, you know, and e-even like, you know, tutors were completely out of the question. At the time we lived in Houston, and there is a met-metropolitan area, so we should be, should have been able to find somebody that can handle that. But then we said, you know what? We're, we're both engineers, we can, we can figure this out." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "02:43", "start": 162.58, "text": "Yeah. So be-- because we're both engineers and we're both working at the same time, which is something that most parents find themselves doing, and they have to think about, okay, we have a child, what are we gonna do with the child 'cause we gotta work? So we did, we did do a little bit of Montessori, preschool with her, and that's how I got informed and, and under-- and started to understand what Montessori was all about. And I- I really, really, I really like her method, and as a matter of fact, you can implement that method at home, and it's really great for young children. But the problem with the Montessori schools is that they have a limitation on age, and, for example, early childhood, they have a school up to age six, and then you have to think about the next step and so on. And of course, our child was showing, A, a high level of certain things that we thought she's, she's not gonna be fit in in a public school system, she's not gonna fit in that environment, and they're not-- and the teachers aren't gonna know how to help her achieve more to what her gifts would be. And so we explored homeschooling, and with homeschooling, we said one of us has to stay home, and it started with me staying home. So that's how we got into homeschooling." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "04:00", "start": 239.69, "text": "A-and also the fact that, that, I grew up in Saudi Arabia, okay? Next- Store to you. And so, my, my fa- father was an engineer and we, we, he worked for Aramco, for many years, and so I grew up over there, and then That is, there's Aramco schools are only up to ninth grade. Well, I stayed further, than that with special per-permission and was homeschooled by, by my, my mother. And so I got an ex- exposure to homeschooling, and also we've, we both have a very extensive, you know, amount of different types of schools that we've gone to. She's, she's been-" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "04:46", "start": 285.82, "text": "Yeah, I, I'm from South America, so I went to very high-end international schools, and so, a, a private school, so I had that experience, and, then I immigrated to the US and, and had a, a- Little experience in the public school system, which is really the biggest joke, but that's what they have here. but we, we did have those experiences, we know what the education provides, and we've been to university ourselves, and we have been very successful engineers, and we see that there's a problem. This, there's-- the world is changing, and this, this, this- Model doesn't work anymore. It didn't really work well to begin with, but it's working less as time progresses. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "05:31", "start": 331.33, "text": "And that's one of the reasons why we wrote the book is, is to help people transition into homeschooling. and, and we were already had a coaching business, prior to the pandemic, helping parents transition into homeschooling. And then we said, \"We, we have to write a book, 'cause basically we're repeating a lot of the same concepts to people.\"" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "05:54", "start": 354.47, "text": "Yes. So as engineers, we, we have explored a lot of different concepts and explored different things that might be, might be hard for people to find and understand, and we compiled into something so that we can make it more efficient for people to learn it more quickly." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "06:11", "start": 370.76, "text": "We deconstructed and demystified a lot of things that people asked, asked about. Yeah. Like, you know, socialization and about, you know, what are they-- what's the transition between, you know, homeschooling and university and everything else like that? So that's why we-- that's why we basically wrote the book." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:33", "start": 392.66, "text": "Great. And one-- okay, so there's a few themes that I came out to me when I was reading the book. One interesting one is this notion of the hive mind mindset. Like, there's this kind of hive mind that- I, I, the way society, at least normal, quote unquote, normal people or more statist people, let's say, they sort of have this perception that sending your kids to the government schools or to government-controlled schooling, that's just the way, and we're-- there's just kind of this hive mind, and you sort of have to, you have to sort of pull yourself out of that. And one challenge that I noticed that you were speaking of is that some parents, even when they try to pull their kids out of that, they end up just recreating- Government schooling just at home as opposed to genuinely looking broadly at the possibilities that are available to a homeschooling family. So can you just elaborate a bit on that idea? Why, why are people doing this hive mind thing?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "07:32", "start": 452.4, "text": "Well, we g-we gotta, we gotta, we analyze what society is today. How did we get here? And, and the biggest, the biggest complaint is is we don't have enough, independent free thinkers. And so to-- we have to raise them, you know, we have to raise independent free thinkers with that thirst to innovate And to also be able to solve problems, but they, they have to be taught that way, and if you keep them in the school system, that's four walls, they're not gonna be able to practice that free thinking, that, you know, different way of, of going about learning something." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "08:10", "start": 490.47, "text": "And the, the reason why parents, defer back to the old, old method of, of public school is because public school, private school, any type of school You know, environment all leads back to the Prussian model of education, and the reason why the, the Prussians invented that system was because they were shamed by Napoleon Because the people who were-- the conscripts, the poor conscripts, who were told to, go be cannon fodder for Napoleon's cannons, they ran away 'cause they wanted to go back to their families. So they said-- and this is completely abbreviated history, but it's, it's generally accepted that they developed-- that, Prussia developed a, a system w-uh, with the," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "09:07", "start": 547.24, "text": "that would take people and honor the state, listen to instructions" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "09:15", "start": 554.95, "text": "without question," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "09:16", "start": 555.71, "text": "without question. They would, they would, obey all the rules and stuff like this. So, so these, the, the Prussian system is what we have now. So whenever, you have people who are saying, \"Oh, I want, I want to homeschool, I don't have a template.\" So the, the template actually is the Prussian system again. But children can learn way different methods." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "09:46", "start": 585.89, "text": "Yeah, people un- adults underestimate the abilities the children already have naturally. if you hone that early on, as opposed to the school systems, which they kill that spirit, they kill the spirit that children normally have to discover, experiment, and learn on their own. And when you kill that spirit, they don't wanna do it anymore, and this is when- And you have teenagers who aren't really that excited about school, right? They're not excited about learning, or they-- and, and a lot of times those kids say, \"Oh, is this, is this gonna be on the test? 'Cause that's the only reason I'm motivated to maybe study this, right? \" And this-- and studying means memorization, they're not really learning to keep any of this that is beneficial to them in the future." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:30", "start": 630.09, "text": "Great. And I," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:34", "start": 634.39, "text": "I'm curious as well about some of your critiques of the school vouchers movement, because I know in the world of libertarianism, there are, let's say, you know, I think prominent individuals, people like, for example, Cory DiAngelo, who's very big on this kind of idea of, you know, don't fund, systems, fund the students, and there's this idea of- Of trying to, maybe, maybe he might argue that, oh, it's incrementally sort of stepping towards what might be a more free in terms of schooling. I know you have a criticism of that idea and you're more focused on actually homeschooling is really the freedom pathway and actually the libertarian approach as opposed to a school voucher system. Can you elaborate why, why do you believe that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:20", "start": 680.37, "text": "Well, first off, let's, let's give you-- I'll give you a libertarian answer, okay? freedom isn't found in a, in a government program. Okay? That's the, that's a slogan you can put on your bumper sticker. so you're not gonna, you're not gonna get, a choice With the government, because their interest is, is power and control, and" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "11:50", "start": 709.95, "text": "it's whatever benefits them. Yes, it does. Not at all benefiting us or the child more, more" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:55", "start": 714.65, "text": "importantly. You know, the, the what, what is a Reagan's famous quote about? I'm, you know, the most scariest words are, \"I'm from the government and I'm here to help.\" so, so yeah, you have, you have that, which i-it's ironic that right when- When children were brought home from the pandemic, and parents started seeing, \"Why is my kid walking around like he has PTSD? Okay, why, why, what's, what is this? I, I haven't noticed this before because I've been, you know, busy going to work myself, and why are my kids now, now that I'm home?\" And my kids are home, their, their min- their mental, the mental damage has already been done, and why is this happening? So they said, \"Okay. I, I can do this better, okay? I recognize that the problem is the school system, and I can educate my, my children better. And so Corey DeAngelis comes along, which almost out of nowhere, He's the poster boy for, for S- Newt Gingrich's, a voucher system from the 1990s. Now, I remember when Newt Gingrich introduced The voucher system back then, and one of the major issues with, with that, and one of the major arguments back then was, once the government is able to fund something, they can dictate the rules of that Program. And so what the argument back then was, is these private schools we like private, private religious schools, we don't want, we don't want the hiring practices that we are being forced, to do because that goes against our religious beliefs. So that was the argument back then. And so then the other, the other argument then was, they get to dictate the curriculum. Nowadays, it's still the case, and, what's interesting is there's another dimension to the, the voucher school choice movement, and that is We have UNESCO involved. Okay. And with UNESCO, it's, it's called, supply side funding. And, and Cory DeAngelis is a fellow of UNESCO. He's a, what does they call, a, a policy expert. And so, although he has taken down that UNESCO page of him lately, but he was, he was up there, and I have a screenshot of that. So, so the question is, is who, who is this person who, you know, at the beginning of his, his campaign for- school choice. He was," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "15:07", "start": 906.92, "text": "he was in his twenties, no children, and stuff like this. So it's, it's highly suspicious to me. that, that he would be, you know, chosen and earmarked as, as the spokesperson for school choice." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "15:23", "start": 922.92, "text": "Well, and, and as engineers, if we were to say, okay, let's say we have the voucher system, what does that do for us? Right. Right. You, you explained the, the, about the sc- the amount of schools that we actually have, what would that do with the people?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "15:36", "start": 936.17, "text": "Sure. I, I mean, typically we, a- around the average, spending per Nationally is about thirteen thousand dollars, okay? Some school districts, like in New York states, they spend up to thirty thousand per student per year." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "15:57", "start": 956.52, "text": "then what happens is--" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "15:59", "start": 958.99, "text": "I'm talking about the voucher. What would it do if we actually had vouchers and families had that money with them, and they would have to ch-choose which school to put their kid into? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, so what happens is you have maybe a private school that everyone thinks is the best And then everyone's gonna sign up for that school, and they're gonna, and they're gonna be full, and then they have a waiting list of students that all wanna be in that, the best school. Right. And so it, it doesn't fix the problem when you have a limitation like that. And then, and then you'll have families say, \"Oh, maybe, you know, there's, there's something going on, they're discriminating us, you know, for not being able to, to go to that.\" Yeah. The, the-- So it, it, from that creates" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "16:44", "start": 1003.98, "text": "Basically, you'll, you'll start getting lawsuits against private schools saying, \"Uh, you're discriminated against us,\" and when actually it's a, issue of, we just don't have the space. Don't have the space. So if everyone got a voucher in hand, where do you go?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "16:59", "start": 1019.12, "text": "Yeah. So, you" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "17:00", "start": 1019.76, "text": "know, so I could either go to another public school or a private school, but if the private school is gonna be full, or I can homeschool, and then it's like, if, so if I use the voucher for homeschooling? Number one, how much am I gonna get? And number two, how much do I need? Because the average cost to homeschooling is eight hundred dollars a year for a student. I see. So there's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:26", "start": 1045.58, "text": "like an overpayment factor here because as tax-- on the tax side, on the revenue side, you're probably paying in all this money far more, and so I guess you're, you're pointing out this idea that homeschooling parents would be, quote unquote, paying in a lot more into the system than they're really taking out of it, on the other side, on the school and so that might be a question of justice, of, you know, fairness, whatever you wanna call it, and I think another angle that I see you, I believe you raised this in the book, is that there's a property taxes angle to this also, which is that the dynamic today is At least in America, as I understand, it's very much about, \"Oh, what area do you wanna live in?\" Because that's where you wanna be in the right, in the quote-unquote, right catchment zone to get into the good schools, and that's what drives a lot of, you know, property values, and then because- Most state or many states have property taxes, then that's like another angle of government involvement and again, government, you know, taking basically people's money, and so there's kind of a, a dynamic around that also, right?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "18:34", "start": 1114.02, "text": "Right, so let me go back a little bit on the voucher again just to finish up, 'cause it would actually open, opportunities for government to now also put regulations into homeschoolers if we say we're gonna accept the voucher to fund our education. And that's no good. So going back to the taxes, is most people don't even know where their taxes go to, 'cause a lot of the things say, \"Well, how are we gonna pay the roads if we don't have proper-- if we don't pay property taxes?\" It's, it's false, you know? Classic" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:01", "start": 1141.32, "text": "libertarian Yeah, go on." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:05", "start": 1144.84, "text": "Go ahead. You wanna talk about the proper taxes? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "19:08", "start": 1147.55, "text": "so, so what we say is, okay, if you want to, i-if you want to change the dynamic, okay? You want to basically starve the beast. And so the beast, the leviathan, the huge government, program, is, is of course education. as like during the pandemic, they paid two hundred billion dollars Extra on top of their blo-blo-bloated budgets, into the school systems. What'd they do with the money? Say, two hundred billion. That's more than they, they sent to Ukraine. That everyone's, screaming about, how, how much money that they're supporting Ukraine. so- So," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:53", "start": 1192.81, "text": "so it's a mismanagement of money, and they, and it's never enough. They have to ask for more and for more, and so will we, will we- You know, try to analyze this, what if we didn't have to pay those property taxes? 'Cause then every family would have that money, because when you look at the new schools that they're building, it's a monstrosity, and it's, it's all this money you can see, they're even incorporating, technology where every kid now has a tablet, you know, and or a Chromebook, a Chromebook or whatever you wanna call it, and things that don't really promote their learning experience. And they're taking" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "20:28", "start": 1227.61, "text": "out the textbooks." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "20:29", "start": 1228.65, "text": "Yeah, and so we're spending But not really getting the results." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "20:34", "start": 1234.16, "text": "So here's," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:36", "start": 1235.74, "text": "go on," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "20:36", "start": 1236.08, "text": "go ahead." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:37", "start": 1237.44, "text": "Oh, I was saying, there were, funnily enough, I think just today or yesterday, I saw on Twitter, someone was sharing a, a TikTok video of this. Massive public school, and I think they were like a well-rated school, but obviously they were getting a lot of funding because they had like this stadium and that room and this gym and this-- and they just had like an incredible facility, a, a incredible range of facilities, but-- and you think about, well, how is this being funded? And then you sort of start to think, well, okay, property taxes. It's, it's just big government all over again." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "21:11", "start": 1270.66, "text": "Of" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:11", "start": 1270.8, "text": "course. Absolutely. So better than the voucher system, you know, it's better to not have to pay property taxes and have those funds back with the families. But go ahead." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "21:20", "start": 1279.53, "text": "We are, to, to make it, to make it, concise. We are for the privatization of education, not necessarily f-for, corporations necessarily. We want families, because what we say is that education is part of parenting." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:38", "start": 1298.29, "text": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "21:39", "start": 1299.13, "text": "And, when you homeschool, you get sixteen thousand more hours with your children. And that's significant, because I, I think it's heard, I heard it said that, the amount of time that you spend, with your children up until the age of eighteen, let's say eighteen years, 'cause you're always-- they're always there with you, but after they leave the house, that cumulative time that you're gonna spend with your children is about one year. So the, for the rest of your life, you're-- and having adult children, the, the total amount of time you're gonna spend with them is a year. Now, you have to, as a parent, you, you have to improve your relationship with your children. And so I want more people to homeschool, because what that does is, it not only starves the beast Okay? It frees up, property taxes, because in the United States, the majority of property taxes goes to education. And so if we can If we can take their justification for taxation away from not having the headcount, then they're already screaming about it right now. They're worried, they're even blaming fertility rates on why there's no, people in the schools anymore. And so we, w-what we have now, and this is br- this is absolutely brilliant, there are five million homeschoolers now in the United States, and in- and increasing, and that equates to a full ten percent of all K through twelve population. Homeschooling is mainstream now, and because it's mainstream, it's becoming an emerging market, and there's tons and tons of entrepreneurs out there trying to fill that, that gap of need for parents to homeschool their children, and it's an awesome time right now." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "23:48", "start": 1427.53, "text": "Yeah, parents get so, get so intimidated by academics. As if, as professionals, we didn't, we-- as if we didn't know what was really useful to us. As, as we know how much math, how much English, it, it-- this is normal information that we already know and should be, we should be able to naturally be able to teach it to our kids, because a lot of homeschoolers who've been doing it for many, many years say, \"This is so natural to homeschool our ch-our chil- Children is to, we, we are naturally teachers to them as soon as they're born because we teach them many things, we teach them how to eat, how to walk, and all these things, and we-- and suddenly we've, we've been indoctrinated to think we need to outsource them now for, for a babysitter to teach them academics, and it's a really silly idea when it's really not that big of a deal, but yet this is what the schools have been producing is people being- Being intimidated of academics as if we couldn't teach it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:50", "start": 1490.07, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. 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It allows me to take a quick look at the block space market and see what the prevailing fee rate is, and If I'm looking to get that in, in the next block, or if I'm a little more patient and I just set that more at the medium or high priority. So it's a really awesome tool. You can use it to view the mempool, the blockchain, you can search transactions, you can search lightning channels, you can view the lightning network and see big, well connected lightning nodes. There's just so many features that you can explore there. You can even search transactions and see the RBF history. There's just so much you can do. Mempool blocks are also scrollable. They Things and keep an eye out for the Mempool Accelerator coming up over at mempool dot space. And now back to the show. And as you do say in the book, I think there's a section where We might summarize this idea where people have this concept in their mind, and maybe it comes back to the hive mind idea we were talking about. There's this idea of, \"Oh, but I'm not a qualified teacher, right? I need to be a qualified teacher, and somebody needs to sort of bestow this blessing upon me that, now I'm a qualified teacher and now I'm allowed to teach my children.\" Instead of just recognizing that you already do teach your children, and it's just not that much of an extension to really take that extra step, maybe you get some curricu- Curriculum, maybe you get a tutor if it's a special thing, maybe you just go back and learn something yourself so that you can teach it, you know? I think there's all kinds of approaches, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "27:06", "start": 1626.26, "text": "Oh, of course. And in our book, we, we outline the, the, the ten most basic and, and most common, homeschooling methodologies in our book, gives the pros and cons of each. And so, but you don't even have to do that, okay? Because what we say that, curriculum If we were to, analyze, analyze what curriculum actually is, it's, it's actually just information you wanna share" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "27:37", "start": 1657.14, "text": "And even, and even some curriculum would add the instructions on the approach on how to deliver that information. Right. But that's all curriculum is, is information and the approach to deliver it to the student. And sometimes they will include something extra for supposedly the student to be able to do on their own. But that's basically all it is. And, and" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "27:59", "start": 1678.51, "text": "even if you, if you have like by a, a turnkey curriculum If you buy a turnkey curriculum, you are, it's not tailored to your child. It may be superior in many ways, but, there'll be some things that, that you will see and there's like, \"Well, I don't really want to teach that in this way. Let me change it up.\" And then you, then you say, \"Okay, well, it's not really fitting now anymore. My child's a little older.\" and so you buy another one, and then you buy another one, and, and you try to mix and match Things. And what you're actually doing is you're learning yourself the, your children and how they learn. Yeah. So and, and that's what the, when the planes of development come into, into," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "28:46", "start": 1726.28, "text": "Yeah. And this is, these are tools. We present different tools, including understanding the planes of development, because what we want parents to understand to, so that they can feel confident in this choice of homeschooling is you become an expert in your children, something that no other teacher- No matter how certified they are, they're not trained to be experts in your children, they're just trained to manage children. Right. And to te-- and not even to teach a curriculum, but to pretty much deliver that curriculum that, that school accepted as the curriculum for that school year. Right. So the-- it's very limited, but becoming an expert in your children allows you to give them exactly what they need developmentally. And, and you" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "29:30", "start": 1769.61, "text": "don't have to be a teacher," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "29:31", "start": 1771.27, "text": "okay?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "29:32", "start": 1772.02, "text": "Because, A teacher goes to school and they're supposed to learn how to manage groups of people, right? That's the majority of the time that they, they spend in the school is, is managing, lots of children, right? And so, you know, basically that's their logistics. So, so that's what makes homeschooling far more efficient, is because whereas in the public school you may have five to ten minutes of actual learning In homeschool, you can, you can go directly into the, the subject matter. You know, you don't have to sit there, okay, everyone sit down, everyone, you know, be quiet, all this other stuff. You know, and go, go by the bells and stuff. If, so if the, if the children want to learn, okay, mom, dad, I want to learn, this this morning, you know, or, or, no, I don't wanna do this, let, let's do this. So you can, you can mix and match, and that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:33", "start": 1833.4, "text": "Another topic, and I think this is a big one, is this concept you talk about of agency. It's this idea that instead of, let's say, the conveyor belt model, it's more like- child led or child interest that then drives what ends up being taught. So can you elaborate a bit on this idea of agency and this idea of pulling with persuasion instead of pushing?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "31:02", "start": 1861.52, "text": "Yes. agency, the psychological definition, is the degree in which an individual has the ability to make decisions about their life. Okay? And this is a skill that's, that's learned, are supposed to be learned, growing up. We get practice on making decisions, and we, get the freedom to make decisions. Contrary to that, the other side of that is, is, people who micromanage their children, people who always tell them what to do and stuff like this, to the point, and to the point where they are afraid to do anything with, because that might upset someone. And so that's, that's a, a very big problem because then children grow up and they are agreeable to a fault. They're-- they freeze when they have to make a decision. And that's a-- that is very common, and, and you see that all over in, in public school system and in the Prussian model." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "32:05", "start": 1925.22, "text": "And, and hence why you see that lack, lack of confidence in parents because they are a product of that system. Yes. And so the thing about agency is we have to let our children- develop it early, because when they develop it early, they can now learn independently. So this, this big job that as parents think is a big job of having to teach our children, all we have to do is let them develop that agency, because they will start learning on their own. You don't even, you can even take yourself out of the equation, 'cause sometimes parents hold, can hold kids back. And if, if the kid is interested and excited, we just have to let them, let them go at it." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "32:47", "start": 1967.22, "text": "See, the, a child will develop agency a lot of times in spite of the micromanaging. Whatever they can control, they will gravitate towards. And, detrimentally, a lot of times children will start gaining weight and overeat and everything because that's the only thing in their life they can control, and that's, that's due to trauma And so I'm not, I don't wanna get into too much into trauma, but whatever, it's like, oh, the kid wants to play video games all day. Alright? Well, that's the only thing that they can control, because then, you know, the parent says, \"Oh, well, he's quiet, I don't care. \" You know, \"I, I, he's, you know, he's doing his own thing. \" And in reality, he-- that's an escape. For the things that, that really would benefit him. Our job as, as parents is to, tell-- is to teach the child that the things that they're doing Are have value and, in, in other words, the answer the question, \"What's in it for me?\" And that's one of the keys of motivation. And I'm, I think I'm jumping ahead a little bit to one of your questions, but the, the key to motivation is to answer the question, \"What's in it for me?\" In other words, have-- if you've had a child say, \"Why do we need to learn all this stuff?\" If you're not able to answer that question in a, in a way that satisfies it," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "34:26", "start": 2065.88, "text": "And what I wanna think I wanna add about the micromanaging, nobody likes to be micromanaged. I don't think I've, I've heard anyone say I like to be micromanaged at work or in everything that I do. Actually, actually, it kills creativity and it kills motivation. So this is why when you have kids in, in an environment like the schools being micromanaged every step of the way, they don't get to practice their agency. They're a bit, a bit lost in their teenage years, they're, they're not excited to be there, and they don't learnpath is gonna be. So it's kind of like we have a, a, a generations of lost children." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "35:02", "start": 2101.81, "text": "Right. And so when you, when you train agency, and it's okay for them to make mistakes along the way in, in learning agency, when you train agency Then what happens is they become self learners. They, they develop an idea, \"I want to do this, I want to do this, I, you know, I wanna be a baker, I want to be, you know, an engineer, I want to be a nurse practitioner or whatever they want to do.\" And they'll discover those things that they really are-- start gravitating to, to, for a career. And that's- What agency will buy you? If you say, \"You're-- if you tell your kids, 'Oh, you're gonna be this, you're gonna be that, that's how, that's your path,'\" then you're not giving them a chance to exercise their agency, and so they feel trapped" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:59", "start": 2159.38, "text": "When it comes to applying this notion of training agency, what can that look like in practice? I think some examples you give are if the child is interested in X, Y, Z topic that they could then go find books on that topic or play some kind of video game that's related to that topic or maybe go and take an external class on that topic. What does it actually look like in practice that where the parent is trying to support that child in agency, what does it look like in practice?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "36:32", "start": 2192.23, "text": "Oh, let, I'll do, I'll do a one for, for small children. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "36:36", "start": 2196.25, "text": "'cause it, it'll depend on where they fall in their age, 'cause they're- And the plane of development. The plan of development, there's four, and so it depends on where they fall, but go ahead and- Right. Like," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "36:47", "start": 2206.94, "text": "like, here's, here's one thing that is, because you're training from birth the idea of agency. And so in, instead of saying," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "36:58", "start": 2218.05, "text": "you know, here have us, have some apples for a snack. Instead of, instead of that, saying, \"Would, would you like apples or, or banana slices for a snack? \" So you give them a choice, and they, they feel like they made a choice. And remember, the, the definition is to, to the degree at which an individual has the ability to make decisions. Yeah. So the act of making a decision Should be practiced. So you, you direct that and then expand more and more as they get older what their decision making is. So when, when they're, when they finally decide what they wanna do for a life, they, they're not frozen, right? They're not frozen trying to figure out what, what they're going to do, because in, in public school, you know, at the time of graduation, they're asking them, \"What do you wanna do for your-- \" For, for make-making a living. And two weeks prior, they had to ask for permission to go to the bathroom. See, they're not teaching agency." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "38:06", "start": 2286.34, "text": "No, the, the thing again for, for, for agency is the freedom of choice and the freedom for children to speak out their thoughts and feelings because they, you, you, now are letting them feel confident that they can speak Out whether they want, they think differently about something, you allow them the chance to, debate you on, you know, do you wanna, do you wanna read the book or would you rather work on, addressing frame? That's something that they learn how to, close buttons. It's, it's a way for them to learn how to dress themselves, but you give them choices on what they wanna learn, and that way they feel like they own that decision, or they can say, \"Well, I don't wanna- Do any of those things, you allow them the freedom to say, \"Okay, so we got, let's, what did you have in mind?\" You know, it's, it's being able to have those type of conversations that develops a confident child." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:08", "start": 2347.61, "text": "I'm also curious, and maybe this is a bit of a nature versus nurture question, but when I think about, let's say, the way my dad thinks about certain issues, I'm not that far away from him, and I wonder maybe my son won't be that far away from me in terms of how he thinks about things, as an example. So I wonder how much of it is just kind of genetically driven anyway, like regardless of how you're taught, whether you're homeschooled or state-ist schooled. I'm curious how Where does that play into your view?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "39:38", "start": 2378.31, "text": "well, let me ask you something. Do we, do we ask these questions about nature versus nurture when having a friendship? Well, you know I mean, they're all relationships, you know, whether you, you have a relationship with, you know, a coworker, your father, your, your mother, whatever, or even with your children. A lot of times we start looking at children as this, you know, a petri experiment, a petri dish experiment, and as like, \"Well, we have to figure out how we can mold them.\" Well, how about you just like connect with them?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "40:17", "start": 2417.12, "text": "And you don't wanna, you don't wanna make the mistake of treating them like a second class, you know? They, they should be-- Actually, you should, we should be treating children like kings and queens, like you deserve a better education than what they're giving you elsewhere." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "40:31", "start": 2431.03, "text": "I would say future kings and queens." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "40:34", "start": 2433.81, "text": "Basically, give them the best quality of things, you know? Better than what we had ourselves." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "40:40", "start": 2439.69, "text": "And most people wanna do, may-- do better for their children, you know, than they had themselves." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "40:47", "start": 2446.52, "text": "Yes, because that's how we improve our, our, our future generations, we give them a, better opportunities, things that we didn't have so that they can grow and, you know, we have a lot of- Evolving that we still need as a species. So if we can't break free from that, you know, mentality that we are free to make these certain choices and free to educate ourselves, we're not gonna move forward." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:13", "start": 2472.95, "text": "Let's talk a bit about the importance of the love of reading. Now, this is another thing I notice, you mentioned in the book where- As I read the book, my understanding was you were saying try not to have that child be getting themselves addicted to things like cartoons with the bright, you know, colors and everything. Maybe that's overstimulating the child, and actually what you wanna do is try to get them to enjoy reading and learning in that way. So why is that? Why, why, why should we focus on that idea of reading as opposed to like cartoons or things?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "41:52", "start": 2511.95, "text": "There's many answers, but this is one of the reasons why we talk about the planes of development or understanding how children develop and understanding how children learn, because when children are young, they really want to explore the world, that's their natural state. They wanna touch anything, and, you know, the babies will put everything in their mouth, that's their way of learning about what's going on around the world. So how they learn or how they prefer to learn is they wanna get their hands on things. So instead, if you, if you don't do that, give them the, the concrete materials, instead you give them abstract things like TV, that's not gonna satisfy them developmentally, it's actually going to, harm them because then they're gonna be addicted because with technology, it just starts a different, a different path that isn't positive. You wanna add to that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "42:43", "start": 2563.38, "text": "Sure. I mean There's, there's, plenty of studies out there talking about the, the detriment of, of electronics, at early ages and how it's, it's, it is oversimulating as, as you say. we, we even have, anecdotal, stories about how Steve Jobs said, \"I, he's not gonna, you know, give his kids Apple tablets for, you know, until they get way older.\" And there, I mean, it's full of, full of the- Those things. And the thing is, is," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "43:20", "start": 2599.82, "text": "we have to develop the connections in the brain that where you're not, help me out here." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "43:33", "start": 2612.56, "text": "I don't know where you were going with that, but I was, I was just, I was just saying that, that kids, you know, the, kids are like primitive people. You have, they wanna learn things from scratch, how to build a fort from scratch with pillows or whatever they find nearby. They don't wanna kit. That's already pre-made and then, you know, that you have to let them, evolve as like a human species. In other words, they, they wanna build things from scratch and then later they wanna say, \"Oh, okay, how can I make this better? Maybe present them a more advanced kit that they're ready for.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "44:05", "start": 2645.34, "text": "What, one of the things I, I, I saw, and this is in the book also, is, you know, I, I was driving and I saw a, a father with his son and they were both jogging. And so, w- What I gathered from that is, and I've, I've seen him a couple of times, when what I gathered from that is, we are the model for our children's behavior. we are the, are the model for our ch- for the virtues that we want to instill in, in our children. And so when the child- a child will develop a desire to go jogging if the father has a desire to go jogging or, or whatever the, the The father or mother are involved in, they will g- generally gravitate towards those things. That's why you have, you know, the sons and daughters of do-doctors generally become doctors, sons and daughters of engineers become engineers, and, and ex- etcetera. So that's very, very common so when we want children to read, what are we modeling for them? What template are we becoming for them? Because sure enough, if we have, if we are a bad template for our children, they will mimic that as well." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "45:31", "start": 2730.85, "text": "So the thing is, technology is, is very detrimental because it's a distraction and the fact that it's naturally addicting. So it takes away children's focus and attention when they should be developing other things like reading. And if we read to them all the time and develop that template, they're gonna want to read. They wanna, even wanna learn read to learn read. on their own, without us having to put that stressor of, \"You need to learn how to read,\" they will just pick it up naturally. But if you have technology in the way of things, it kind of- You know, doesn't allow you to get to the point where you can give them other type of resources outside of technology." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:12", "start": 2771.9, "text": "I see. So on the technology question, how do you-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:18", "start": 2778.06, "text": "Strike the right balance then, because as an example, you might also want to use Khan Academy as an example, right? And, and for that obviously you need a computer. So is, is the question then more about the right timing, like it's not, it's saying don't introduce computers to them too early and then wait until a certain age and then that's where you start introducing computer learning tools. That's," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "46:39", "start": 2799.09, "text": "that's exactly right. The thing is, as engineers, actually we love technology, we, we think it's an amazing thing, but we also know the bad things about- About it. And so it is, it is an age thing because again, the planes of development, you have to satisfy the, the needs so that they can develop in a healthy way and not deter them from nat-- from their natural learning progression." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "47:02", "start": 2821.85, "text": "And, and for, for reading, it can, it can start off really simple. It's like with, with your three-year-old, every night before you go to bed, you're all in the living room, you get together, and you read a story, mom reads, dad reads, and, and the- You know, our daughter was reading at the time." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "47:20", "start": 2840.12, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "47:21", "start": 2840.52, "text": "but the, but the thing is, is a-- and of course, they get older, and so they can take a turn, like at five, six, seven, reading certain things, and it doesn't have to be a, a big book, just interesting." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "47:32", "start": 2851.89, "text": "Yeah. And we, we kind of-- we, we kind of, sorry, did I interrupt you? No, no, go ahead. So the, the thing is, we know how user friendly technology is now. It's like anyone can learn it in a few" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "47:47", "start": 2866.72, "text": "Exposure they need and know it, and no, that's, that's false because they'll, they'll pick it up like nothing, even if you delay that exposure. So what we, what we did with ours, because our child was already reading at a, like she was eight and reading at a college level, even though we didn't give her college level texts because they're not a Appropriate, there are adult material, but we kinda knew it's not gonna deter, deter her from continuing reading 'cause she already loved to read. So around age, age eight, I did introduce a very simple laptop, and the first things I did was basic tools like Word, PowerPoint, Excel, and Paint. So, and as tools to further her education. So again, very basic things. I don't give her programs, they do it all for her. I- I gave her programs where she uses them for her own, own satisfaction. So interestingly enough, the one, the one, program that really, really, took, took, took her to like further, further along with her studies was PowerPoint, 'cause all of a sudden she's making presentations in PowerPoint at age eight. About any subjects that she could think of, and that was like the most interesting thing, so she learned a tool to further her education and something that would be useful, useful for her in the future, instead of giving her games or things that just are, again, more of a distraction and, and stuff like this. You wanna give them tools, that's the best way to use technology because technology are tools first, not a way to, not entertainment where it takes away your, your time from doing, you know? Useful work, anyway." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:33", "start": 2972.89, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Swan dot com is the lead sponsor of this show, and Pacific Bitcoin Festival is coming up. So if you haven't got your tickets and you are in or near the US, this is a must see for you. Pacific Bitcoin Festival is gonna bring together so many awesome people, it's gonna celebrate the incredible world of Bitcoin, the ultimate lifestyle, and a thriving community that's working together to forge an awe-inspiring, bright orange future. There are so many speakers coming, Max Keiser is coming, Stephan. Macy Herbert, Vijay Boyapati, Preston Pish, Greg Foss, and so many more. There'll be a main stage, there'll be a SwanDome deep dive, which is also a crowd favorite, there'll be so many activities going on, there'll even be some side events such as the Pled Party. So keep an eye out, it's October 5th and 6th in LA at the Barker Hangar. Go to pacificbitcoin dot com, use code Livera to get a ticket for yourself and for any family and friends that you wanna bring along. I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:26", "start": 3026.32, "text": "Yeah, great. And another big topic, and of course, this comes up pretty much every time anyone talks, even talks about homeschooling, so I'm sure you've heard and answered this question a thousand times, the socialization one, right? Of course, I've even had to answer this question. but, an interesting angle I've seen you take in the book is this idea that- W- kind of what people are talking about when they call it, quote unquote, socialization, is really more like social conditioning. So can you explain a bit about that? Why is it social conditioning and social engineering rather than socialization?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "51:01", "start": 3060.83, "text": "Well, a lot of times there's the misnomer that, and the average person under-thinks they understand what socialization is in regards to public education. they think it's, oh, about having friends and socializing. That's not what socialization is. in psychology, there's two types of socialization. There's primary socialization and secondary socialization. Primary socialization is- What they get from their families and they, and they learn things about values and virtues and right and wrong and morals and that, that type of thing. And those are the, supposedly the family rules of society. Because everything goes back towards the family, okay, as, as the center of, of civilization. What the secondary socialization is, is Think of it more like, a corporate idea, a corporate socialization. Once you get a job, there's way-- there's things that you have to do in the company you work for, right? This is how we should conduct ourselves. These are the rules of-- and they have nothing to do with morality. It's just the way you do things for that company or a school. So when they say the children need to be socialized, what system are you socializing them to? And when you're talking about school, you're talking about secondary socialization, a socialization to a system rather than socialization to civilization. Now Where they, where people generally say is, \"Okay, well, actually what I mean is, my kid isn't gonna go to prom, they're not gonna go to play football, and, and stuff like this.\" So that's a different, that's a different conversation, but you have to make that distinction. Is when you talk about socialization, what socialization are you talking about? Now For the socializing of children, that's important. So we have, in homeschooling, a lot of communities have, have," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "53:21", "start": 3201.33, "text": "I mean, let me, let me stop you for a second, sure, sure, real quick. So the, the reality of socialization is, the proper socialization for, for, you know, incorporate yourself into society isn't really learned well in the school system because you have all these kids same age, so the, all these kids are inexperienced." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "53:44", "start": 3223.68, "text": "I was gonna get to that, but go ahead." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "53:45", "start": 3225.38, "text": "And they're put together to supposedly do that, and they're not gonna learn how to do it correctly. This is why we refer to schools as the thunderdome, because they're, they're ruthless with each other. They have the cliques, you have the bullies and all these other things. And then you have teachers that say, \"We're not here in school to- Socialize. So again, they're not there to learn those skills. So the better teachers are the parents, because we, as, you know, like in homeschooling, when you have your kid with you, they're observing you how you engage society, because now your classroom is the whole world. Wherever you go and your child's with you, they're seeing you engage with society, people of different ages, different generations, and how you go about being polite and asking for things and stuff. Like that. Right. And because homeschooling has become so mainstream, and what homeschoolers do is they do have their own clubs and co-ops and things like that, they, they do get together. So people when they think, \"Oh, but the kids who are homeschooled don't get those experiences,\" they actually do, and they're better." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:53", "start": 3293.31, "text": "Yeah. Right. One area I wanna look, so I, I mean, I agree with you, obviously, and I, I think another interesting topic, you, in the same area, is this idea that- Really, it's about-- and this is maybe a bit subversive, but it's really about accepting the state as the authority and the center of society rather than the family, which obviously I think we all agree that it should be more about the family, not about the state, but obviously libertarians would have that view. Now, I think one other area that a libertarian maybe would challenge you guys on this is maybe they would say, as an example, if you-- if we believe in the free market and division of labor, specialization of labor, why isn't it that we would want to put- Put our kids with a specialist teacher as opposed to, you know, every, you know, parent or at least one of the parents having to go and be, you know, the teacher or the guide or the mentor for the children. I, I mean, I, I guess I have my own thoughts on this. I, I, for me, my answer would be something like, part of it is because of the way the stateist schooling system kind of touches all, even the quote, quote-unquote, private schools. And maybe, maybe hypothetically, if we truly libertarian world with actually private schooling, maybe that would be different to today, but I'm curious how you would answer that, right? Like obviously a free market libertarian could come back to you and say, \"Well, hang on, don't you believe in specialization of labor? Why should individual parents who maybe that-- your competence might be in something completely different to teaching and being a guide, right?\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "56:24", "start": 3383.74, "text": "Here's a libertarian answer. there will always be schools Okay. My thing is, why do we need a, a megalith, a leviathan of a state school?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "56:38", "start": 3397.99, "text": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "56:39", "start": 3398.57, "text": "That we spend billions on every single year? Okay, that's the libertarian answer. the, the thing that, the, to really think about is how do they define the free market? Now Going back to vouchers, they say, \"Oh, well, this will do, the vouchers will do this and that and the other thing,\" and then I was like, \"No, no, vouchers are just an accounting methodology, okay?\" And that's-- and they actually say that in the-- there's a, a publication, a, UNESCO publication, I mentioned it before, about supply side funding for schools. And so, but the thing is, is there is no free market in, in state programs. It's the antithesis of free market. So if you want a free market, you're, you're gonna have to talk about privatization. Now," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "57:36", "start": 3455.65, "text": "what's his name, The Economist The famous economist, Milton Friedman. Friedman, yes. a, a great guy. And what he said about vouchers is, okay, you can have vouchers as a stepping point to full privatization. But then he, he mentioned and alluded to, \"But you're going to have to deconstruct vouchers.\" And we know how, how, easy it is, or how difficult it is to deconstruct any government program once it's initiated." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:14", "start": 3493.99, "text": "Yeah, of course. There's a famous saying, \"There's nothing so permanent as a temporary government program,\" and I think that actually was Milton Friedman, I think he said that, ironically." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "58:23", "start": 3502.63, "text": "I was gonna add something, and it's, it's a little, it's, it's a different answer, but it's something that we need to be cognizant about is we're not just having a crisis where- People aren't learning, in other words, we're, we're saying we have a very dumb society, or dumb down society, but we also have a problem with relationships, you know? And that's, and that's the, the key that I think we need to also focus on is the relationships if we, we need parents and children to be more connected and to, so that in the future we don't have these, these issues of, of, mental crises, you know? 'Cause that, that happens, it's connected to family. We also have, less divorces, you know, things like that that affect society because of relationships, and that's the only way to fix that is for us parents and children to be more connected" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "59:16", "start": 3556.1, "text": "And that's, and that's part of when, when we talk about, our subtitle of our, our book, Kids Don't Need School, is, is a radical new homeschooling plan to teach anything, promote independent learning, and prepare children for an uncertain future. And one of the elements of that radical plan is the improvement of the parent-child relationship. And if I was to drive anything home, it would be that fact together. We need to take back our families, because there's so many forces that are against the family as, as an institution. And I'm not just talking about what, what people have called the nuclear family, which some people would say, \"Well, the nuclear family is kind of a, like a psyop, right? \" Where really what we've given up is what they call the corporate family, which is the, the nuclear family with an extended, you know, grandparents and cousins and uncles and aunts Sort of thing. And real-- that's the, that's the strength of the family," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:00:15", "start": 3615.84, "text": "yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:00:16", "start": 3616.7, "text": "is, is a clan idea. And, and everyone-- and the thing is, is if you look at some, some immigrants that have come to the United States, like, a Asians or, Indians and stuff like this, and they bring their family over, everyone works for a certain goal, and in one to two generations, they're wealthy. I mean, that's the power of, of that corporate family model." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:00:47", "start": 3647.05, "text": "And that's, that's why our communities aren't working, even though they existed, weren't working, because we have, disjointed, disconnected families. We don't have the strength of families to build a better community. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:01", "start": 3661.34, "text": "Yeah, and that's, that's a sad trend. I think part of that is, you know, culture, part of that is fiat currency. Obviously, many of my listeners are Bitcoiners, we're focused on Bitcoin, but many of us are also libertarian, so, you know, I think many of them are Probably in an age bracket where they might have children, and they're either thinking about homeschooling or some of them are doing homeschooling already, and so there is maybe an element, and you're touching on this, is this idea of homeschooling as a bulwark in the culture war, let's say, that this idea that if you don't want the state and other- Political influences to be influencing your child, whether that's the woke stuff or the, you know, whatever, or other things, homeschooling is a way to sort of push back and actually tip the scales back in favor of freedom. I, so I think that's actually a really important angle, you know, for those people interested in the libertarian freedom aspects of this, right? Because it's not just about what's more efficient at teaching your child maths and English, but it's also about what kind of society do you wanna live in?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:02:06", "start": 3726.02, "text": "Yes, it's the, it's-- homeschooling is the largest, I believe, it's the largest return on investment, politically that you can ever do. Okay? Because the thing is, is you can spend, you know, twenty, thirty years f-fighting the school board or campaigning for, for whatever school program or, or something like this, and you may get a little bit of, of headway, but to remove your children and teach them, and basically ta-take your values and virtues and instill it into your children That is a huge benefit, politically. it's, and, and also of course for your legacy, passing on those things for your children. But as, as far as like, a, a, a housewife can, can do More for, more politically than an activist by just homeschooling. It's a brilliant tactic we should, we should all like embrace." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:03:16", "start": 3796.84, "text": "Yeah, I mean, the thing is, we don't wanna use the infrastructures, any infrastructures that will enslave us one way or another, and the schools is the main one that starts with enslaving our minds from the very beginning. So why would we continue using those infrastructures when we are more than capable? Of doing a better, you know, a, a, a better way to, you know, be in control and teach our children." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:03:43", "start": 3823.76, "text": "Yeah. Okay. So look, we're coming to time, so I guess this is the final question or topic. Let's talk a little bit about how, on a positive note, as you've mentioned, it seems like the momentum is shifting, right? In these last few years with this, you know, fake scam demic that we've all lived through, I think we've seen A lot more interest in genuine homeschooling and not this kind of just do your public school on Zoom kind of aspect. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? What are the prospects there? What kind of numbers are you seeing and hearing about in terms of the growth of homeschooling?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:04:19", "start": 3859.19, "text": "well, there's actually quite a, quite a bit of numbers on the growth of homeschooling, but, what we, what we see is, like as I mentioned before Five million homeschoolers now. Out of fifty million, K through twelve population, there's five million that are homeschooling, and that's, that's, that's significant. any political movement, over two percent is a significant political," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:04:48", "start": 3888.59, "text": "A movement on, but we have ten percent. And the, again, the nice thing about that is once, it, it, once it becomes mainstream, and it is, already mainstream You have an emerging market and you have people who are now more accepting of homeschooling. I, I, I think, I saw recently, and I'll, I'll probably botch the numbers here, but it's like thirty-seven percent more, approving of, the idea of homeschooling than it was like in the nineties. and so, what's, what's interesting, about, what I was a-gonna say. Sorry. I can't." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:05:38", "start": 3938.62, "text": "I can't get it. There's so much," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:05:39", "start": 3939.97, "text": "there's so much, there's so much there that's, that's, amazing what's happening in, in that. Oh, I remember. it's getting so mainstream that the University of Arizona is now offering- classes, homeschooling classes from grade six through twelve. And so the colleges are now getting into the market of providing education, homeschooling programs for homeschoolers." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:06:13", "start": 3973.71, "text": "So that's certainly an interesting development, yeah." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:06:16", "start": 3976.77, "text": "So opportunities are opening up, and even more so, I mean, when we wrote our book, we reached many parts of the world, even in places where homeschooling is actually il-illegal to do. We" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:06:27", "start": 3987.52, "text": "sold in Germany. And" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:06:28", "start": 3988.86, "text": "then, and, but the message that we're sending is we wanna live in a world where we are free to learn how we see fit. That's really how we wanna live. So the, the thing with, with, with our book is we teach you how to be That expert and we give you that confidence and you, you maybe in the future you may wanna develop something to help other homeschoolers. But with, with this influence of let's, let's do homeschooling 'cause it's really easier than you think, it's, it's gonna help us in the long run." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:06:58", "start": 4018.89, "text": "Of course. And we're here for, yeah, we're here for coaching too, as well. We have a, our website, homeschoollife dot us, you can, you can join up if you, if you read the book and you still have questions, there's coaching available. there are soon to be classes, online. We're developing our, our class structure for parents." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "01:07:22", "start": 4042.08, "text": "So, but if you wanna, if you, if you definitely need, A very like crash, crash, not a crash course, but a crash start, and to, to get in the right path for your children where they can actually be ten, fifteen years ahead of their peers, definitely schedule coaching with us, 'cause we'll get you on the right path, we'll, we'll get you to where you can be efficient. And, and give you the confidence that you need, and, and it's a, it's a brilliant thing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:07:48", "start": 4068.06, "text": "Great. Well, that's great. I mean, like I said, I'm, I'm a fan of homeschooling, I'm a promoter of the idea myself. So, best of luck to you guys. I hope, listeners, you check out the book, check out the site. I'll put all the links in the show notes. and, yeah, let's, let's leave it there. So, Jonathan and, and Adri" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:08:07", "start": 4087.06, "text": "Thank you, thank you for having us. Take care." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:08:10", "start": 4090.64, "text": "Get the show notes over at stephanlivera dot com slash five one four. Thanks, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }