{ "episodeId": "SLP519", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "matthew_black": { "name": "Matthew Black", "role": "guest", "tag": "MATTHEW" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.59, "text": "Hi, you're listening to Stephan Livera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics brought to you by Swann dot com. Are you wondering what Bitcoin finance might look like in a self-custodial way? Well, today my guest is Matthew Black, he's CTO of Atomic Finance. They are building out their view of what Bitcoin finance could look like with DLCs, and we talk about all the questions that you Might have about this, such as where is the yield coming from? Why bother engaging in any of this stuff? Doing DLCs on online devices and some of the ins and outs of the yield, as well as where this might develop in future. Matt, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "00:47", "start": 46.79, "text": "Thanks so much for having me, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:49", "start": 48.75, "text": "Yeah, so I've been following what you guys are doing, and obviously it was great to chat with you when I was up in, Toronto for Canadian Bitcoin, conference just recently, or a couple months ago. and yeah, we gotta do a little bit of your story about what you're doing, and with Atomic Finance. So just for the benefit of the listeners, can you just give us a little bit of your background in Bitcoin? And also, I know you, you were actually interested in Ethereum to Bitcoin, at least in the, in the sense of being a builder, and building your business on Bitcoin. So do you wanna just, tell us a little bit on that?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "01:23", "start": 83.41, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So I, I guess I originally-- I originally got into Bitcoin actually way back in, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen. It was actually my dad that introduced me to Bitcoin. he was a big, a gold bug, you know, at the time. Yeah. And so anything" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "01:42", "start": 101.83, "text": "that was, you know, kind of, Interesting to him, so obviously that, that included Bitcoin. but it's funny, he's not a technical guy at all, and so at the time I was managing, you know, his Bitcoin for him. and then, you know, I kind of forgot about Bitcoin for a couple of years, starting to get back into, like the space in, around 2017. Myself and my co-founder, Tony, we were at the University of Waterloo, and, you know, there was kind of a large, I guess you as you know, many of you may know, Vitalik originally went to Waterloo, and so that was kind of a lot of the focus there. and one of the things that intrigued me at the time was this idea of, of DeFi that was being built, which was the concept of, you know, anyone being able to get access to financial tools, no matter where they live, no matter where they were in the world. And so we went down this rabbit hole of, of being interested in Ethereum, working on atomic swaps for some time, and eventually found our way Back to Bitcoin, realizing that Bitcoin was really the asset that was, you know, the most important and the most, most interesting, and, you know, that's what we've been focused on ever since, is, is building on Bitcoin and how do we build financial tools on Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:58", "start": 178.13, "text": "Yeah. Okay. And so just to make it clear for listeners, there may be some who are kind of so scarred by the experience with DeFi that they are like, \"I don't even want anything to do with this stuff.\" So can you make the case for those listeners? Why is any of this stuff needed?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "03:16", "start": 196.25, "text": "Well, I think, when you think of, of DeFi, a lot of people think of Ethereum, they think of the hacks that have occurred, they think of Co- Curve Finance hacked for eighty million, they think of all of these concerns that have happened, but I think one thing to really think about here is, you know, what is the, what is the underlying architecture that's being used, you know, for DeFi and how decentralized is it really? and, and also, you know, what's the alternative, right? So- I, I feel like, you know, for the past couple of years, we've had two extremes. We've had CFI, right? We've had the blockfies, the Celsiuses, the, FTXes of the world, where, you know, last year, you know, twenty billion dollars was, was lost in the span of a couple months, that's the, you know, GDP of, of, of El Salvador, right? meanwhile, we've got, you know, DeFi on the other hand, where we've got all of these smart" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "04:12", "start": 252.13, "text": "The illusion of decentralization, where, you know, they say, \"Hey, we're building a decentralized protocol,\" but in reality, you have multisig admins that have, kind of, have control of the contracts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so, I think where we really saw something that could be a lot more interesting is, partly, you know, due in part to the ethos of Bitcoin, hey, like build things that are, you know, non-custodial, and, and build, and keep it simple, Kind of overcomplicating things, you know, resulting in, you know, potential issues that can occur, but in, in Bitcoin, we have the ethos of, let's build things in a very secure manner and, be safe first and, you know, you know, maybe experiment elsewhere and then bring that over to Bitcoin. and this is really what can, you know, this, this really, I think encapsulates like what- can be built inside of Bitcoin, and that's where we got really interested in what's called DLCs, Discrete Log Contracts. They allow for these financial primitives to be built on, on, on top of Bitcoin, in a very, very, secure manner. and so I think that's really the difference that you see between all of these different ecosystems." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:27", "start": 327.38, "text": "I see. And so, like you were saying, that the alternative for many people will be that they end up using some kind of CFI provider, where in many, if not all cases, they are giving up custody of the actual coins of the Bitcoin, and that obviously comes with other risks. And so I think the response of many people will simply be, \"Oh, hey, I'm just not even gonna take a risk with that. I'm just gonna keep my coins in cold storage, and, you know, that's, that's the end of the story until...\" Some future time where maybe then it makes more sense to do this kind of thing. How would you, you know, answer that kind of idea or talk to that kind of person?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "06:13", "start": 372.66, "text": "Well, I think there's plenty of people that are in the camp of, \"I'm just gonna buy Bitcoin, I'm gonna put it in cold storage, and I'm never gonna do anything with it, and I'm gonna, you know, maybe take it out of cold storage in twenty, thirty, fifty years.\" And certainly, for a percentage of your stack, I think that makes a lot of sense. But if we really want Bitcoin to be utilized for the masses, we have to have use cases for it. And in addition to" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "06:37", "start": 396.67, "text": "that, I think there's an, you know World reserve asset, the world reserve currency. but that's gonna take time. Is that gonna take twenty years, thirty years, fifty years, a hundred years? I don't know how, how long the, the maturity process is gonna take. But in the process of getting there, there's an opportunity to take advantage, and essentially monetize Bitcoin's volatility. And so that's one of the things that we've been focused on at Atomic Finance is how do we allow for folks to make a return on their Bitcoin essentially, and be able to take advantage of monetizing Bitcoin We, you know, over a period of time transition from the current fiat, you know, currencies to eventually a Bitcoin standard way down the road. and I'm not saying like, you know, take a hundred percent of your stack. You know, there's an opportunity to take, you know, one percent, five percent, ten percent, and, and do something more with it. And I think where a lot of people get lost is, this idea around trading, right? If I'm going and I'm, I'm going out there and I'm trading my Bitcoin, most This is why trading gets a bad rap. But really, if you do this methodically, I think there's really an opportunity to obviously, you know, be able to stack more sats, right? Like just DCA and hodling isn't, isn't, you know, empirically isn't the, isn't the, the strategy that's going to yield, you know, the most sats. If you trade emotionally, you're gonna lose sats, obviously. but I think there's an opportunity to, to be able to stack s" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:10", "start": 489.91, "text": "I see. Yeah. And so when it comes to stacking zats and lowering the risk of doing so, I think that's where obviously this kind of concept of non-custodial finance or maybe self-custodial finance is coming into the picture a little bit. So can you explain maybe just at a high level before we get into the technical details, how does it work that people can have a self-custodial- Finance and self-custodial, let's say, trading of Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "08:38", "start": 517.76, "text": "Yeah, I think before we get into that, we should talk about like what, what was the old system? So the old system was a black box, yeah, it was not transparent, right? You gave-- How did you earn a return on your Bitcoin? You gave your Bitcoin to BlockFi, they, you know, lent it out to someone who lent it out to someone else, and then one of those people defaulted and now you're in bankruptcy court, right? So you gave it to a black box and you didn" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "09:03", "start": 542.8, "text": "Make, made. If you don't know how the returns are being made, then you are the yield, right? And so, the, you know, the classic meme on Twitter. and so in this case, the way that we think about it is that there's no free lunch in Bitcoin, right? if you're looking to make a return on your Sats, you're looking to do any, you know, level of trading, there is a risk associated with that. and so the way that we've thought about enabling folks to do this is, first of all, let's get rid of the black box, right? Let's get rid of the, let's get rid of, of the aspect where, people don't really know what's going on. let's make it transparent exactly how the funds are stored, right? So if you think of, what we've built on it, on, on, on our app on Atomic Finance, it allows for folks to invest in automated trading strategies, and that's done using a D" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "09:55", "start": 594.64, "text": "My blockchain, and we'll get a lot more into like how that actually works, but you can see exactly where your funds are stored at all times, and you know that those funds are stored in a non-custodial manner. Then, what we do in the background is we enter you into an, you know, an automated strategy. so we've, we've done the work in, in the, the background to actually go and back test and, and, and create trading strategies, that, you know, you can take advantage of. And we tell you exactly every time a position is taken, hey, here is the specific position that was taken, this is when it expires, and you can see, okay, you know, that's, that's how much I made this week or And then, you know, at the end of the month, you actually get your Bitcoin back. So I think that's the clear thing that's different here is that instead of, instead of you just going and depositing your Bitcoin into a black box, instead, let's build tools where people know where their Bitcoin is stored at all times, where it's transparent exactly how you're getting that Bitcoin back, and that it actually lands in your own self-custodial wallet at the end of the month." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:59", "start": 658.79, "text": "yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so- I, I'm following you so far there. let's talk a little bit about what it looks like. So I obviously just, you know, had the chance to play around with the app, iPhone only so far, so had to use my, my wife's phone. I don't have, and I'm an Android guy myself, but, so I guess just talking through, just so listeners can get an understanding of what's going on here, the idea is you, you know, you, you sign up on the app, you put in an email, give a It's like a monthly cycle thing that's like a rolling cycle thing. The idea is you can deposit some Bitcoin, enter into a DLC, and, you know, do this on-chain DLC, with the market maker, and I guess you guys are being the oracle in this case, And so then the idea then is at the end of that month, you'd have some of those sats come back into your wallet, depending on what exactly happened. And so historically, I think the stat you have in the app is seven point four four percent is the annualized Return. So can you just, expand a little bit on that for us?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "12:12", "start": 731.64, "text": "Yeah. So typically when you, so I guess first off, like us as Atomic Finance, like our goal is to build, sound finance for sound money, to build a platform where people can get access to these tools in a really simple manner. So the first product that we've put out is the covered call strategy, so it uses options in the background, and essentially what happens is a user enters into a DLC for a month at a time, so they go and they lock their funds in- To that. And then what we do is rerun that automated strategy in the background. So where does that seven point four four percent APY come from? so we've gone and we've developed this strategy. So we backtested, using signals, you know, all the way back to, you know, trading data going all the way back to twenty twelve in order to develop opportune, you know, moments to actually take a trade, and that goes and runs in the background. And, and so the seven point four four percent, that's based on two Average, so, as a disclaimer, Bitcoin options have actually only been around since around twenty nineteen or so, so, but, what our strategy does is it actually takes backtesting data all the way back from twenty twelve, right? 'Cause you've got Bitcoin trading data for that time, and then obviously we show, you know, what the results would be for Bitcoin options data going back to twenty nineteen. And so what we do with that, is part of that is historical, and then the other part is live trading data, which has, you know since around, November, and then, you know, publicly live available to users, since, January of this year. so, so that's what that yield is based off of. And then more recently, the, you know, the, the yield earned, I, I think over the past couple of months, like six months or so, the yields have been a little bit lower, say like one point five two percent, but that's also due to the nature of Bitcoin, right? So Bitcoin volatility goes up, volatility From the bear cycle to the bull cycle, and so you're gonna have a difference in, you know, option prices as, as we get those swings occur. So, you might have lower yields for, you know, say a six month period, and then much higher yields for the next six month period, for example," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:22", "start": 862.17, "text": "such that it averages out at seven point four four percent. Okay. And so just to spell out the specific strategy in this case, the, I guess the initial strategy that you've launched the app with, it's this covered call. So let's talk through a little bit of That, so I mean, the high level understanding is, a, when you are selling a call, you are selling the right but not the obligation for the other guy to buy your, that asset at a chosen price. So can you just walk through, as an example, what that might mean, just so people can understand, like, what is a call option and what is it doing in this case?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "15:03", "start": 902.64, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. The way I like to think about it is I like to use the, you know, people hear, hear the word premium and they, they get confused, but I like to think of it as a coupon, right? So imagine, imagine someone comes up to you and they say, \"Hey, you know, I wanna, I wanna be able to...\" So say right now the Bitcoin price is twenty-six thousand, right? And they say, \"Hey, you know what? I wanna be able to buy Bitcoin at, at the price of thirty thousand dollars, 'cause to pay you two hundred dollars to be able to buy Bitcoin at thirty thousand. And so what happens there is you're like, \"Yeah, you know what, you're looking at Bitcoin, I don't think it's gonna hit thirty-five next week, I think it's gonna stay, stay below thirty.\" So you go and you sell that option, right? And so you get that two hundred dollars, that's, that's what you get in that profit. And as long as Bitcoin stays below thirty thousand, you just profited two hundred dollars. Now, if Bitcoin does go above that, well That thirty, you know, thirty thousand dollars, and you lost a little bit of Bitcoin, but at the same time, you still profited in US dollar terms. So that's one of the nice aspects of a covered call or a short call position, is that no matter what happens, you either profit in Bitcoin terms or you profit in USD terms." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:22", "start": 982.26, "text": "I see, yeah. And so just to spell this out for everybody, the way the app is working is obviously there's no stablecoin or fiat coin involved here, like it's literally all in Bitcoin terms, right? So as an example, if you put in one million sats or whatever That is the amount of sats that you're basically putting into the DLC, and you're either gonna, at the end of that month, come back with, you know, a small amount of premium or coupon in the example you gave, or the DLC will execute and you will, I guess Be, like you said, you'll be in a fiat profit position, but in a, you may be down in, or you may be, yeah, you may be in a fiat loss, sorry, fiat, fiat gain position, but would you be, you might be down in Bitcoin terms at that point. That's, that's how it would work, right?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "17:14", "start": 1033.78, "text": "That's correct. Like so either, either one of two things, you come back at the end of the month with more Bitcoin, or you have slightly less Bitcoin, but you profited in US terms, USD terms, Or, you know, there were no, there were no positions taken, in which case you get the same amount of Bitcoin back. And that's the key thing to think about here too, is that sometimes it's not a good time to trade, right? Like sometimes the market isn't opportune. So there's many months where we don't even take a trade, you know, for the strategy, and other months where you might take one or two or three trades, during the month. It really just depends on what's, what's going on, what's the volatility," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:50", "start": 1069.64, "text": "and what Cycle. Is that always just from like the first of the month to, you know, the twenty-seventh, or is it just kind of like a rolling, you know, thirty-day thing or something like that?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "18:04", "start": 1083.73, "text": "Yeah, it's, it's, it goes for a month at a time. we have two different type of cycles. So obviously you have to enter into a DLC, and then since it's non-custodial, like we can't, we can't go and, you know, we're, we can't just take custody of your Bitcoin and go and" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "18:23", "start": 1102.55, "text": "do We have what's called rollover weekend. That's actually happening right now. So users come back to the app and they, they see what their gains were. So the Bitcoin is returned to their wallet at the end of the month, and then they get to make the decision, hey, do I wanna keep investing in this? So every month they're getting that Bitcoin back to their wallet, and they get to make that decision, hey, do I wanna enter into another DLC or do I wanna, you know, sit this month out, for example?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:48", "start": 1128.47, "text": "Yeah. And just to obviously spell this out. There's no early release, right? Like it's, once you're in, you need to wait for the end of that contract just to spell that out, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "18:59", "start": 1139.15, "text": "That's correct, yeah. Currently, in the future, we might be, might allow, you know, folks to say, early exit where, say, if there's no, been no positions taken during the month, they might be able to exit that DLC early 'cause a DLC itself is just a two of two multisig, right? So that's what it is on chain. So if you wanna exit early, Locked in for the, for the entire month." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:25", "start": 1165.15, "text": "Okay. Now, I guess the other aspect that a lot of people may be concerned about is giving up the upside, right? Because obviously, if you're a Bitcoin hodler, you are bullish on Bitcoin, you, you know, whatever, however many million dollars you think it's gonna be, and so to some extent, this user is, I guess Having to be okay with the, that idea. So they're saying theoretically they're gonna have to say, okay, I'm gonna sort of take this example of seven percent on average yield per, at, like, as an annualized yield, but there'll be some times where I'm giving up that upside because there may be a month where, as you know, Bitcoin can go insane, it might go from twenty-six thousand to forty thousand in, in a month, and they may have given up some of that upside. So do you see that as the main downside or how do you, how would you address" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "20:16", "start": 1215.9, "text": "Yeah, I, I would also look at it in terms of, so for the strategy itself, like we've de-designed this one in particular to try to be very, very conservative. So the maximum drawdown that we saw was one point seventeen percent over the course of four years, which is obviously very low. Now it is possible for that to be, you know, larger. And generally as well, you may see premiums that, you know, even if you get that one point seven, seventeen percent drawdown, you know, premiums that are able to actually, you know, so we've seen, you know, premiums anywhere from like one percent to two percent, on a single trade, and generally that happens when volatility increases dramatically. So when you have very high volatility, so you might think, \"Hey, a covered call, you know, that's, that's something I wanna run during a bear market.\" and, and yes, it, you know, you generally have less volatility and it's safer, but it also means that the premiums are lower. You have very, very juicy premiums during a bull market, and so as, as we We're likely gonna see, you know, much juicier premiums and much higher returns than even we've seen over the last six months, because of that. And so, it's kind of always that risk, you know, that risk and return, right? when there's higher risk, there's higher return, and vice, vice versa." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:33", "start": 1292.54, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Swann dot com is a safe and easy way to buy Bitcoin and get free automated withdrawals into your self-custodial wallet. Now, Swann serves a range of different customers. For those of you who are with a business or if you're operating a business, think about Swann Bitcoin Benefit Plan. If you have staff and you wanna help recruit, reward, and retain top talent with Bitcoin, this is a way to pay out some Bitcoin every month to those staff. Swann handles all the heavy lifting like creating wallets, converting Currency, routing payments, and like magic, your employees receive Bitcoin and world-class financial education monthly as a benefit from you. Also, you can obviously add Bitcoin to your corporate balance sheet. It's never been easier with Swan Bitcoin Treasury Solutions, so you can incorporate Bitcoin into your financial strategy. If you're interested in this, go to swan dot com slash business. And now back to the show. Yeah, okay. So, yeah, I guess intuitively the way you might think about it is during a bull cycle like, like 2017 or 2021, you are anticipating a lot more upwards movement, and so then theoretically there's probably a lot of traders on the other side who might want to take advantage of that, and for that expectation, they're, they're willing to pay a lot more premium. So then you, the user Might have to be comfortable. Well, on one hand, you might say, \"Well, hey, I'm getting more yield out of it,\" on the other hand, you are sort of capping the upside a little bit, and you may end up down in Bitcoin terms but up in fiat terms. So now, that may make sense for some people, like maybe if you-- maybe one way to think about it, maybe it makes sense if you are otherwise going to sell anyway. So for example, maybe the use is a person who is trying to live off some of their stack, or maybe The things they're doing, and they want some, you know, income, and they're getting some Bitcoin income in most months, but in some months it gets executed and then they having to give up that Bitcoin. So maybe that's how you would think about it. What do you think? I think" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "23:32", "start": 1412.31, "text": "that's, I think that's definitely true for like, say, long, long dated options, where essentially, you might be selling a call a year or, you know, three quarters of a year in advance, where you're saying, \"Hey, you know, this is my price target," }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "23:49", "start": 1428.68, "text": "And so I'm gonna go sell a call at this, and I, you know, it's, it's essentially like a sell order with some extra income. And so if it hits that, then, you know, I was willing to sell there anyways, and if it doesn't hit that, then, you know, I just made some, some extra Bitcoin in the meantime. I think the, the difference between that and say like the, strategies that we run is these options are, weekly, right? So, a stra-- like the option that's entered into" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "24:19", "start": 1458.68, "text": "And so, the likelihood for, you know, that massive, you know, you know, God candle, and obviously as Bitcoin, you know, continues over time, like the likely for that, decreases and decreases as more people get into Bitcoin. And so the likely for-- likelihood for that to occur during that weekly period is much lower. but obviously it's not impossible. and, and so that's kind of what we see as, as, as the opportunity there. But if, on the other hand, if you are someone that Or like you're looking, you know, to take advantage of either, hedging for like, you know, a, a large price upswing or a, a price downswing, then something like long options, is gonna be very, very interesting to you, which is something that we're launching very soon in our manual options within the app as well, which will allow people to take a-- advantage of these non-custodial financial contracts to get access to, to even more, you know, tools for, for speculation, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:13", "start": 1513.49, "text": "Gotcha. Right. Because what we've" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:19", "start": 1518.62, "text": "And then you also have this manual product where the user is able to manually select things and fine-tune them a little bit further So can you outline a little bit around the manual options that are available?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "25:34", "start": 1534.2, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So that's actually something that's, gonna be launched very, very soon in the next two weeks, but essentially we have a preview that allows people to see, you know, what that functionality is gonna look like. But it's really the same thing, right? It's, it-- well, actually, it's, it's different than the, the conservative cover call strategy, the automated strategy, but it's the same thing in terms of using DLCs, right? So you're going and Or, you know, two weeks or a month, and you're putting up that-- it's the opposite, right? So you're buying a call, you're putting up that premium that's being locked in the DLC, and then at, you know, at the, at expiry, you know, the oracle goes and creates an attestation which then allows you to un-unlock those funds. And so we're just, you know, working on allowing for more folks to be able to get access to these tools. And these are tools that are used by lots of, you know, if you themselves, like whether you think there's gonna be a price downside, whether you're at the top of a bull market and you think the price is going down dramatically, or, you know, you're in a bear market and you're expecting, you know, a, a price upside, you know, options are a very versatile tool that allows you to take advantage of that, and so we're just trying to make that accessible to more folks in a way where, you know, they know that they can't be rugged at the end of the day." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:53", "start": 1612.73, "text": "I see. And so in that example, are you able to manually execute, right? So let's, or is it more like an automated execution thing?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "27:07", "start": 1626.63, "text": "Yeah, so the, so the DLC itself is all peer to peer. So like if you think of this in comparison to, say, a centralized, exchange, typically you have a, a centralized ex-uh, order execution engine, right? whereas in this case, it's a user that's entering into a position directly with a market maker, so the market maker will go and, you know, kind of, specify their, their pricing, and then users can go and take advantage of that. and so the user will then, y-you know, enter into that position, that DLC with the market maker, and they send their messages back and forth on-chain in order to enter into the on-chain position, and then once- Once they're actually in that position, you know, they either stay in it to expiry, so they're in that DLC all the way until expiry, until the oracle creates the price attestation which allows them to exit, or they can do a mutual close with the, with the market maker in order to exit that position early, right? 'Cause remember, this is just a, you know, it's, it's so very similar to a lightning channel at the end of the day. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:13", "start": 1692.75, "text": "Okay. And so then- Just out of curiosity, does that mean the user in some cases is reliant on, like, if they are still ultimately reliant on the oracle giving the right price? But I'm just curious if there's kind of- Intraday moves, like, let's say you enter into a, I don't know, for example's sake, let's say you enter into like a one week option, but on like the third or fourth day, it was like the most profitable for the user to sort of execute But, you know, do you get what I'm asking? Like, will they lose out because they weren't able to execute at the, at their, at their chosen time?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "28:50", "start": 1729.55, "text": "Yeah. So generally, yeah, there is, I guess you don't need to rely on the, like, say, the counterparty, the market maker for, for like, first of all, custody of your funds, you don't need to worry about it for like actual execution upon expiry, but you do for like exiting early from the position. So that's the one edge case that you do That your, the, the counterparty, the market maker is online, so there's a liveliness requirement to that, and so, you know, that's, that's obviously for our business, very important to make sure that our mar-market makers are online and that they're, you know, that their services are up and running, and then obviously on the oracle side, right? There's, there's no, w- this, this runs into the oracle problem obviously, right? Which is that, the Bitcoin blockchain itself doesn't have data external to it Actually not on chain, it's all, all off chain, but it's a signature, right? Yeah. And so, there's a need for that, in order to actually execute it, and so that's obviously the role that the oracle, plays. So you do need to trust the oracle in that case as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:52", "start": 1791.9, "text": "Gotcha. Okay. And so in terms of other technical risks, obviously one other big one for a lot of people, and I would have this concern too, if, if I would be keeping serious amounts on there, maybe small amounts fine, whatever, but keeping a lot of keys hot, right? Obviously, the general advice with large amounts of money is that you have it in a cold storage or in a multi-sig, like offline storage is generally, you know, what people try to do. And so, and as you mentioned, some of the customers It could be, you know, fund managers or people with potentially a large amount of coin or maybe customers could be whales or whatever, they may not be comfortable with keeping a lot on a hot device. So do you have any thoughts on that or what could be done around that?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "30:37", "start": 1837.06, "text": "Yeah, so in general, that's one thing that's a little bit tricky with DLCs. obviously, say if we get something like, OpCTV, we'll immediately be able to get, DLCs, onto, say, hardware wallets, for example. but, in the process of entering a DLC, you actually create a bunch of off-chain signatures for all the possible outcomes, of the actual contract. And so, with that, you can imagine, you know, sitting there on your cold card and you" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "31:08", "start": 1867.86, "text": "Yeah, you're clicking five hundred times to enter one contract. Well, that's not a very good user experience. so we, so for our initial version here, we, you know, we obviously have it on iOS. We've taken advantage of some of Apple's security features like the secure enclave. and, and we've made it so that you can enter for a month at a time, so that during that month, it's kind of like your funds are locked, so you're not worried about, someone coming along and wrench attacking you in the, you know, But obviously, like moving forward for folks that wanna be able to do larger and larger amounts of Bitcoin, something like a hot wallet like this isn't, you know, isn't, isn't the perfect solution. And so- We're working on some, some tools to allow for, say like two FA to prevent against like, say, wrench attack, for example, or even, I imagine like a desktop application that folks can use where they feel a little bit more secure there. So that's something we definitely have planned for the future, but we just wanna, you know, our goal right now is really to get, get DLCs into as many folks' hands as possible for this V1 release and, and really get, you know, folks testing it out and, and trying it out with We move up from there, as we, as we work on getting, you know, even more security features in." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:24", "start": 1943.59, "text": "Yeah. And so what are the current limits that you have? Is it something like- 0.05 up to, was it 4.05 BTC? That's like the current limits you have." }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "32:36", "start": 1956.49, "text": "Yeah, that's right. We have, 500K Sats all the way up to a limit of 5 BTC. we could, we could go higher than that as well. that's, that's honestly related to the limits of, hey, our market maker only wants to have X amount of funds in their hot wallet. so we want, you know, to improve security on their end. So it's not so much" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "32:59", "start": 1978.72, "text": "Speaking of which, Stefan, you, you got a chance to try out the Atomic Finance app and, I think you, if I'm, if I'm correct, you entered your first DLC today, like, I'm curious, like, w- how was, how was that experience for you and what were your thoughts?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:11", "start": 1990.99, "text": "Well, yeah, I mean, I thought it was pretty slick overall. I think, yeah, the main thing, like for me, like I was saying, probably the main concern for me would be-- Well, okay, so probably two main concerns Obviously it's a hot device, I'd rather not keep any serious amount of money on there. Okay, small amounts, yeah, whatever, fine. But, you know, and then the other aspect of it is, if you are just fundamentally bullish on Bitcoin It's kind of, it's a hard ask to say, \"Hey, just cap your upside,\" you know? It's kind of like, \"No, I want my exposure to Bitcoin because I want that upside. Why would I cap my upside?\" So that to me is probably one of the aspects of it. And yes, I understand you can make some Bitcoin return in, in those months that it doesn't happen, but I guess at some point eventually it may, you know, the God candle or something may happen, right? Whatever it is, and at that point I wouldn't wanna be like, \"Oh no, because I entered into this DLC, I sold my sats, and now I've gotta quickly try and run to buy them back or something,\" like it would just put me in a really weird place. but yeah, I mean, I, like I was saying before, I could sort of see it if maybe a person was like, \"Okay, let me take a portion of my stack and try to earn some sat on this, and sort of treat it like, okay, I'm gonna use that to sort of, maybe if it's smaller amounts, maybe it makes sense.\" And, yeah, I mean, I- Yeah, I think for me, I would really like to see, more security come to these things and be able to do them offline. I think certainly the hot wallet risk, like you mentioned, okay, yeah, one of those risks is the wrench attack, obviously, but for me, it's also just- I don't know how comfortable I would be keeping any serious amount of coin on a phone wallet, because, okay, yes, they wouldn't be able to steal the coins while they're inside that DLC, but theoretically, let's say at the end of that month, those coins come back to the wallet, and if somebody, like, theoretically was, like, you know, a savvy hacker who somehow got your coins off your, off your phone, or, sorry, got the keys to your wallet off your phone, then they could wait till the end of the month, and then, like, you know, And just do an extremely high fee transaction and pull it out to his own wallet and steal from you that way, you know? So to me, that, that's like where, I guess personally I'd be a little concerned about that aspect of it, but I think this direction for being built out and hopefully some of these security things can be addressed in future, I think that would be, that would be cool, And I think it'd be also good to just, you know, spell out for people some of the counterparties as well here. So you're saying the market maker obviously is one of the key ones. Obviously the question, like we've been speaking about, is kind of the, the Alan Farrington, you know, trademark question of where is the yield coming from, right? Because as you've, as we've spoken about, the idea is The Atomic Finance user is entering into this agreement and who are they, who are they sort of relying on or who are the other people involved here? Obviously, Atomic Finance, the app, the market maker and the oracle. And so I guess fundamentally, the, the yield is being, is coming from that market maker and that market maker Are they-- could you, could we just talk through a little bit about where that money is coming from? Like, are they connected up to an exchange somewhere, and that's where their yield is coming from?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "36:41", "start": 2200.71, "text": "Yeah, that's a great question, and I think the thing that comes to mind is, is this a classic Robin Hood Citadel situation where like the market maker is trading against the users, and obviously that's not what we wanna create here at all. We wanna create a, you know, a market of, hey, we wanna get ac-- people access to, you know, non-custodial financial" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "37:02", "start": 2222.1, "text": "And what they do essentially is they, they take the other side of the trade, but they always make sure that they're market neutral. And so they use various, liquidity providers and exchanges to be able to always hedge, hedge that position. So whenever a, a signal is found, the user is in, you know, is, is in that position on the other side is the market maker, but that market maker is also hedging elsewhere to make sure that they're always market neutral so that they're not trading against the user. so really our, our goal here is you know, for say the automated strategies is really to just provide a way for, users to get access to, maybe what they, what, what they might o-otherwise have to have an automated bot on a centralized exchange, they're able to do in a non-custodial manner. And then for, say, manual positions, being able to do that, you know, in a non-custodial manner instead of having to put their funds onto a, a centralized exchange. In the black box" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:57", "start": 2277.02, "text": "situation. Okay. So exactly. Yeah. So we That market maker is taking positions on some of the exchanges out there or derivative places, and in practice, what's happening is maybe on some of those exchanges, it's that situation of the people who wanna trade or leverage trade there, they're the ones paying yield, or it's kind of like, I've heard traders talk about this idea like longs are paying shorts or shorts are paying longs, be-depending on like what direction the market is, right? Is that, is that essentially where some of that yield is coming from?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "38:32", "start": 2311.6, "text": "I think the yield is, where the yield is really coming from is a market inefficiency, right? So that, that's what any trading strategy is, is just finding an inefficiency in the market where, hey, there's, you know, either, either we're finding a case where these, these calls are, are essentially overpriced and, you know, the user is getting the yield from that and Obviously, if you think about it, if, if the market was perfectly priced at every single instance, then there would be, you know, no, no returns to make anywhere as in any trading strategy, but obviously that isn't the case. Yeah. And so, and so that's really where the yield is coming from, is a market inefficiency that we're just taking advantage of and then passing that on to, on to users." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:10", "start": 2350.23, "text": "Gotcha. Right. And so I'm curious then If lots and lots of people signed up, and maybe to some extent this is like a good problem to have for you, obviously, 'cause you wanna get lots of users, obviously, but, if lots of users were to be using Atomic Finance, does that mean they're sort of competing that inefficiency away and that, that the yields would actually come down?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "39:33", "start": 2373.36, "text": "Yeah, that's definitely possible. so, generally, like when you think about it, so it's taking advantage of a market inefficiency. So if you think about that, you know We, we can't have twenty-one million Bitcoin in the strategy, right? Yeah. There's, there's, there's no way it's, you know, the strategy doesn't exist anymore if that's the case. And so there is an upper limit to any trading strategy, once it gets to a certain size, then like, you know, the yields start to reduce, but obviously at our current size, we're well," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:03", "start": 2402.65, "text": "well" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "40:06", "start": 2405.75, "text": "away, right, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far We're gonna be adding additional strategies as well that people can take advantage of. So, you know, if something like cover call isn't your cup of tea, then maybe a long call and long put strategy might be interesting to you, or, maybe a hedging strategy, you know, between the bull and the bear market and things of that nature, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:30", "start": 2430.03, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. When it comes to securing your coins, CoinKite dot com is the place to go. You can get the best Bitcoin hardware security devices available on the market at CoinKite dot com. You have the Mark IV Coldcard, which has two secure elements, NFC support, it's a very reliable performer, and the CoinKite team are continually innovating. So for example, the Coldcard was the first PSBT native hardware device, and they are continually innovating and putting out new features that you can use to secure your assets. your coins, whether that's using a passphrase, whether that is a BrickMe or Jura's PIN, whether that is using SeedX or, of course, my personal favorite, which is multisig, which is great in terms of the support that you can get on the Coldcard for this, because you can register the quorum and see the other devices that are part of that quorum. So if you're interested in the best Bitcoin security hardware out there, go to CoinKite dot com, use code Livera for a discount on your Coldcard. When it comes to sending Bitcoin on-chain transactions, Is the place to go. Bitcoin has grown beyond a single layer and mempool dot space lets you view this multi-layer ecosystem. You can see the mempool, you can see the blockchain, you can see second layer networks like the lightning network. They've got a mining explorer and you can do things like search Bitcoin transactions on the site. You can even see things like the RBF replaced by fee history for Bitcoin transactions. I of course use mempool dot space every time I'm about to send an on-chain transaction because it helps me target the fee appropriately. They are, they are continually innovating and adding new features, so make sure you go and check out the website over at mempool dot space. And now back to the show with Matt. I see, yeah. and so if we talk a little bit about, some of the other strategies that maybe make sense in, as an example, you know, let's say this user is kind of In the bull cycle, and he's worried that the price is gonna go down. So what kind of options would you offer, or what kind of things could make sense for that, for that kind of user on Atomic Finance?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "42:37", "start": 2557.06, "text": "Yeah, there's a couple things there. There's, obviously taking advantage of long puts. So, for users that know, a put is essentially the-- it's kind of like the opposite of a call, where, you're, you know, say if the current price is twenty-six thousand, instead of that coupon being for buying Bitcoin at a particular price, it's for selling Bitcoin at a particular price below what the current underlying is. So, as an example, say if I buy a call, you know, I'm paying that coupon, and thousand, and maybe I'm doing it at a strike price of twenty thousand. Well, if Bitcoin goes all the way down, to, to fifteen, then I'm able to sell higher at twenty. And so with a long call, you're essentially taking-- you're making a profit if Bitcoin goes below whatever that strike price is. So, oftentimes, one of the interesting things in Bitcoin in general is that puts are generally, underpriced. so we've run, you know, trading strategies in the past like comparing calls and puts and, you know They're always over, you know, overpriced and puts are generally underpriced, and, you know, that's probably due to the nature of, you know, traders or retail folks in Bitcoin being overly bullish than maybe the market actually is. and so there's lots of opportunities, let's say, buying a put when you're like near the top, for example, and being able to take advantage of rewards on the way down. We're also looking at things such as, hey, a, a strategy that, you know, kind of switches between BTC and on, you know, whether, you know, the site, the market is, you know, overbought or oversold. So, you know, being able to convert into what we call stable sats, you know, on the way down, for example. so those are just some of the ideas that you can do if, if you're heading into a bull cycle and maybe you wanna, you don't wanna hold your, you know, your stack all the way down, for example." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:28", "start": 2667.74, "text": "Right, yeah. And so I guess that's where maybe historically there, you know, people have some-- I've heard some traders talk about this idea of just going one X short, and that's like how they can kind of keep their position fiat neutral, in fiat terms. of course, there are, I know, LN markets and Collider and, you know, even, the, the Galloy Blink solution with stable Sats, they're all sort of trying to give users a similar kind of thing. But I guess in this case, you could be achieving DLC, which is a different style to how it's being done in those contexts, because in those contexts it's a custodial thing, whereas in this case, it's non-custodial, but you're placing the trust at the oracle level, some trust at the oracle level basically." }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "45:12", "start": 2711.81, "text": "Yeah, exactly. You're putting some trust at the oracle level. Now, a lot of that trust, you know, in the future can be diversified as well with something like MultiOracle. but the other thing too is like stable sats for DLCs, you can do it in terms of a strategy where You know, you, you put it into an automated strategy that automatically determines algorithmically, you know, when you should be in stable sats versus BTC. or you can take advantage of, one of the things that's cool that's being built in DLCs, DLC land right now, is by ten ten one Finance, they're building stable sats on Lightning. so you can even do, you know, very cool things like, you know, you send a, you know, five dollar, you know, payment to a friend over Lightning, and you send it using" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "45:57", "start": 2757.26, "text": "Sats, you close the DLC, you send those funds over Lightning, and then your friend goes and enters into another DLC, and it ends up as five dollars worth of stable Sats. And so there's these, you know, and that's all done non-custodially. And so you can have these really interesting, you know, paradigms that get created where, you know, maybe that's even easier for merchants to utilize, and now they're using Lightning, and now the conversion between Bitcoin and USD becomes, you know, that much simpler. and so there's, there's come to fruition as we start to see Bitcoin as this, as this financial layer that can be, used with all these different types of instruments, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:37", "start": 2797.42, "text": "Gotcha. and then I know, so currently today it's on-chain DLCs, so obviously that could, you know, if, if there's a crazy bull cycle happening, on-chain fees could also go a lot higher, and that could start to kind of eat into the amount that a person is earning, which obviously might not be fun for them, so do you have any thoughts on that? Is the answer basically to get Lightning DLCs or, you know, what, what are your thoughts on that?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "47:04", "start": 2824.1, "text": "Yeah, generally for, we've been experimenting with on-chain, for a couple years now, and, Lightning is definitely kind of the next iteration in allowing for, you know, DLCS to scale long term if we get a lot more, you know, say, on-chain fees or the mempool spikes due to the ordinal folks coming back, obviously that's a, that's a concern. there has been lots of work done on, on Lightning DLCS so far, with Crypto Garage, Thibault over there, and the ten On enabling, Lightning DLCs, they've had to work with some workarounds to get this, you know, working properly, but, I think they have like a prototype that's, working, quite well right now. Obviously, the, the caveat with this is that, Even with Lightning, you know, like Lightning doesn't scale perfectly, right? We, we saw that with the Ordinals craze, if you can't open a channel or be able to settle on chain because the mempool fees are too high, then that's a concern. And so, you know, really that's an, you know, it's on chain, and then Lightning is an intermediate step, and eventually for sound finance, we're gonna need to find even, you know, more interesting solutions that allow for people to get access to these types of tools, but that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:18", "start": 2898.45, "text": "Yeah. So un-until then, I guess you're just having to deal with on-chain fees for now and just sort of take it as a cost of business, right? And so, just walking through in terms of like what's going on at a maybe a, at a slightly more technical level, the idea is when we're setting up this DLC, the client, he's going through and like signing all these contract states, that can, you know, it's kind of like pre-signed transactions. It's kind of like Lightning, we're opening a channel together, sort of thing. But only one of them at the end is the one that actually goes on chain at the end of the month, in this example, right? So that's sort of at a high level what's going on, but then also you have to deal with the idea that if fees spike In that month's time, you might need to now put more fee to get that transaction confirmed, right?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "49:11", "start": 2951.42, "text": "Yeah, that's exactly it. and so you need essentially some type of fee bumping to exist, you know, within the DLT application that you're utilizing. and so, and so that's, you know, that's obviously a challenge, and, and it's really interesting too. So like, you know, say, say you're going into the app and you're investing, you know, one Bitcoin into like this automated strategy in a DLT Well, one Bitcoin doesn't actually go into the DLC because you need some extra funds, we call it the reserve balance, to be able to go and fee bump. and then this gets into really interesting territory as well. I know you previously had, Gloria Jalan here talking about, say, things like package relay. Well, that's something that's really, really useful for DLCs because, say, say you go and you enter into a DLC at six sats per, per V-byte, at, you know, at the beginning of the month, and then by" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "50:02", "start": 3001.93, "text": "A huge, that's a huge issue, because now even if you create, you know, a child transaction from that to fee bump it, it will still not be accepted by the underlying, you know, blockchain, and so you either need to increase your mempool size, or something else. And so, and so, you know, looking forward to package relay and, and more improvements in that domain. But it's, you know, you always have to be thinking about those, you know, the on-chain sats, sats per vbyte at all times." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:28", "start": 3027.8, "text": "Right, yeah, and so hopefully there's, you know, more techniques around fee bumping and, yeah, ways to sort of deal with that, or otherwise it becomes a situation where maybe-- and maybe this is not ideal, but maybe another option people look at is out of band sort of things, like mempool acceleration sort of things, where maybe they're like, okay, I'm just gonna pay to get that transaction through 'cause I need it, if it's, if it's that important to them, maybe that's something people will do. Although I can understand where maybe people That because it's starting to create this sort of outside the system incentive, potentially, yeah. But nevertheless, I think, that's kind of the overall aspect of it, do you wanna just talk a little bit about the multi-oracle idea? So, I guess backing up just to make sure everyone's following along, when we enter into this contract, this DLC, we need an oracle who is the one who is maybe putting out, maybe they've got a feed that's putting out, let's say, the price, or i-if it's a DLC for the purposes of a bet, they need to put out the result, right? Like, did Donald Trump win the election or did Joe Biden win the election or whatever? and so one idea people talk about is this notion of multi oracle. So can you explain a little bit about that and what does multi oracle look like for you guys with Atomic Finance?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "51:51", "start": 3110.85, "text": "Yeah, so the idea of multi-oracle and DLTs in general is obviously being able to rely on, and, and instead of just one oracle for the price and the attestation for the outcome of what the DLT should be, but instead relying on multiple. So that might be a two of three or three of five, for example. One of the considerations with that, however, is that with a DLT, you know, the more oracles you have, the longer it takes to create all the signatures for all the off-chain transactions. And so, obviously Stefan, you tried out the app today, and I think you were able to enter in what, about a minute and a half or so. yeah, and so, and so it takes some time, and we're running with one oracle right now, and so, you know, it could even be like two or three times longer than that, with, multi-oracle. And the reason for that is because, it takes some time to create those signatures, you need to send it to your counterparty, so there's bandwidth considerations." }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "52:48", "start": 3168.47, "text": "and And so we're gonna be experimenting, probably next year with looking to implement multi oracle. There are some other considerations that could even, improve the situation dramatically. Obviously, if we get CTV enabled, then, you know, you could enter a DLC in like two or three seconds, because the, the bandwidth requirements go away completely, which is really nice. another thing that's, that's some research that's being done in the field right now is around BLS signatures. so, Lloyd Fournier, in fact, I recommend I recommend he, he should definitely come on the podcast. He's been a great, like, Bitcoin researcher, in this space. he, he's been doing some work on BLS signatures, and it's, it's just an alternative signature scheme which would actually allow for multi-oracle to be done without any slowdown, in the signature process. So, so these are kind of exciting things that are in the works, but, you know, just, yeah, need a little bit more R&D to come to fruition." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:46", "start": 3226.42, "text": "Yeah. So, yeah, so you spelled out a little bit around how multi-oracles, are going to work, or at least, they, they may, they may require some more upfront, computation and effort, so that may be a little bit more tricky, but maybe they offer some additional level of security or comfort for the user. so let's summarize a little bit, In terms of where you think Bitcoin finance is going, and, you know, what you see the future of this being?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "54:19", "start": 3258.97, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I think in general, I think people have been complacent for too long. I think we've been complacent with being okay with either Bitcoiners being okay with centralized tools and folks in Ethereum being okay with multisig admins, and so I think where we move from here is just by building out sound financial tools that anyone could get access to for Bitcoin. I think today this looks It's like people being able to get access to, to DLCs for the first time, in a non-custodial manner. we're building the options element of this, ten ten one Finance is building this for, for futures, Lava, another company, is building this for loans. We're getting this suite of financial tools for Bitcoiners that's coming out, that's an alternative to the, custodial black box that we've seen in the past. And so, I think that's really what the future looks like, is people being able to get us being able to go and verify exactly where our funds are being stored, and, and people starting to move their funds off of exchanges into these, you know, non-custodial, you know, sound financial tools. So, I mean, I'm really excited to see where that goes. I think there's a lot more innovation that, that, that needs to happen. Like, DLCS aren't the be-all end-all, right? They are a stepping stone, you know, as towards hyper-bitcoinization, and eventually we'll get alternatives, that You know, in the perfect spot for, I think, DLCs to come to fruition and for it to scale. So, really excited for that to happen, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:47", "start": 3347.33, "text": "Yeah. Right. yeah. So, yeah, I guess, end of the day, there's different, options that people have to sort of get comfortable with, if they choose to do that. It may not be for everybody, maybe for some people it's like a small portion of their stack, and maybe for most people it's just like not, none at all, but, the options are there for people who wanna do that and get involved, So, yeah, as we wrap up, where can people find you guys online?" }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "56:18", "start": 3378.06, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. Well, the other thing I would add to that as well is that, like, yeah, it might not be for everyone, for some people might be like a really small part of their stack, but I think this, this technology is really necessary for a lot of different businesses that even need to be able to hedge. Like, you know, I heard about a company in the, back in the day, here at, here in Canada, they, they were hedging on Bit every time, you know, they were a business that allowed you to buy and sell Bitcoin, and they were just trying to hedge for that, and they lost a huge portion of their stack because of that. And so there's a lot of like legitimate bit, bit, business use cases that are necessary for this. But yeah, we recommend, folks try out like a really small amount of your Bitcoin, don't put your whole stack in there, be safe. people can find out, out, out about us. We're on Twitter at atomic finance and atomic dot finance," }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "57:14", "start": 3433.74, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:15", "start": 3434.86, "text": "Fantastic. Well, thanks for joining me, Matt." }, { "speaker": "matthew_black", "time": "57:17", "start": 3437.38, "text": "Absolutely, thanks for having me, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:20", "start": 3439.76, "text": "Show notes are available at stefanlivera.com. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }