{ "episodeId": "SLP539", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "lara_eggiman": { "name": "Lara Eggiman", "role": "guest", "tag": "LARA" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.08, "text": "But we just want, to help more Bitcoin businesses settle here and grow the Bitcoin community overall and advocate for Bitcoin, so that's the main purpose of the Bitcoin Association." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "00:24", "start": 23.82, "text": "Lara, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:26", "start": 25.94, "text": "Thank you. Hi, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "00:28", "start": 28.46, "text": "So you're doing a bunch of things, starting up Bitcoin Oasis, you're obviously trying to promote the Bitcoin scene in Dubai, and so do you wanna just tell us a little bit about yourself and, what you're doing these days?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:43", "start": 42.98, "text": "So yeah, my background is in economics and IT, and I actually had the opportunity to earn Bitcoin from twenty eighteen onwards. In that IT company in Switzerland I was working for, there were a few very passionate Bitcoiners there, and I just wanted to understand why they are so passionate about this thing, and that's basically what got me onboarded. I live in Dubai for three years now, and together with my business partner Lena, we just see how much we can- Potential there is for the Emirates to play an important role as a global leader of the Bitcoin ecosystem. So we decided to launch a Bitcoin Association UAE and Bitcoin Oasis, which is the first Bitcoin only business conference in Dubai happening next month." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "01:27", "start": 87.09, "text": "Excellent. And so you're living in Dubai, why Dubai?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:30", "start": 90.28, "text": "Oh, I, I love Dubai for so many different reasons. the UAE, in my opinion, is probably the best run country in the world and one of the best places to live. re- Regards to quality of life. So to me, it's the sovereign individual thesis playing out in front of our eyes. What I mean with this is that citizens really get treated like customers here. I find Dubai to be a very inspiring and fascinating place. I, fell in love with the hospitality and tolerance that is really at the core of Arab culture. There are eighty-eight percent expats living here, and I just love that diversity. I mean, if you imagine how tolerant the country has to be to allow for such a rate, it's really incredible. I also love the sun, the food, the beaches, and the desert, and I love the availability of all the services here, which is really better than anywhere else, I would say. I mean, would you agree on that?" }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "02:29", "start": 148.55, "text": "Yeah. So I mean, yeah, as, some listeners know, I, I live in Dubai myself. I, I'm a fan. I think- I think it's low tax, it's good quality services, it's safe, very well placed from a flight connectivity perspective. Like Dubai is just such an easy place to get direct flights almost to any, almost any major city, and so that's really awesome. There are certain, obviously, misconceptions a lot of people have about Dubai, so I'm curious to get your thoughts on this because as an example, sometimes people say, \"Oh, women are treated poorly in Dubai.\" What do you think about that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:03", "start": 183.19, "text": "Well, yeah, one of the misconceptions is that it's all built on oil money, and, this is just not the reality. So Dubai was really built on trade and free market principles, that's the foundation, it's not primarily oil. So oil and gas actually make for less than one percent of Dubai's GDP nowadays But yeah, as to your point, I find it so unfortunate that there are so many misconceptions in the Western world, not only about Dubai, but, but Muslim countries in general. Like the Western media really do their best to transport vastly negative narratives about Muslim and Arab culture, picturing them as violent Terrorists, for example, which is just so sad and so far from reality. and as you said, like a common point that I often encounter when I'm back home in Switzerland is the idea that women are oppressed and have no agency, and to me, this is just so untrue. Because like you get treated very well as a woman here, also in business, we get so much support and you are really on top of the family hierarchy. I definitely feel much more cared for, and some people might also be surprised that you can dress however you like. So there is really no issue. I for myself definitely prefer their culture above Western culture with regards to women empowerment. So yeah, maybe, one other point is, that you often hear is that workers were mistreated in the Emirates. And not to whitewash anything, but I speak to taxi drivers and other low-income workers. And the baseline of those conversations is that they, they actually improved their standard of living big time when they made it to the Emirates compared to their home countries, and they now live in a safe place with less corruption, less violence, and they have much greater possibilities to support their families back home So when you look at it from a prosperity's perspective, Dubai is really a game changer for those families, right?" }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "05:05", "start": 305.42, "text": "Right. I, I think so. I think, there are a lot of these misconceptions out there and- I think at the end of the day, it offers opportunities for people and they are able to earn more here in Dubai than they could in their local country. And so for them, it just, it just, the, the numbers make, make sense for them. And so that's why a lot of people come and work here. so yeah, so I guess we've spoken about some of the benefits we've spoke, you know, we've touched on, I guess I touched on some of them. What would you see as the key benefits for somebody who's listening, maybe they From the Western world, or maybe they're just elsewhere in the world, and they're looking at Dubai. What, how would you help them think about that question of whether they should, you know, visit Dubai or potentially set up here in Dubai themselves?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:53", "start": 352.57, "text": "so Dubai in general, very competitive in attracting business and investments. It is economically and politically very stable, and you have an airport, as you already said, with the best flight connectivity. Worldwide probably, another huge plus, plus is, also their low tax regime, so you don't pay income tax or capital gains taxes. They introduced a corporate tax of nine percent last year, which is, still much lower than most, other countries, and you have some added, value added tax, but that's, more or less it and Then another point is that the UAE is just a very safe country, right? So it's actually quite a fun fact that the two safest countries on the earth are Middle Eastern Muslim countries, Qatar and UAE. So there's, there's a saying that in Dubai you can lose your wallet and you won't only get it back, but you will find more money in it than you had before. So yeah, this just makes it a very comfortable place to live, also for families. I mean, you are raising a family here, Stefan, I, I think you can certainly agree on that." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "07:01", "start": 420.59, "text": "Yeah, I think so. I think it's also something that, even for me, my wife really likes the factor of safety here in the UAE and in Dubai, and so that's definitely a factor. And, and like you said, it's, it's funny because a lot of people have this conception that wherever they grew up or where they're working now, that's just the best place. Everything is the best there. But if you actually look at the statistics of what is, what are actually some of the safest countries on Earth, UAE and Dubai is really, is up there. Singapore, Taiwan, Switzerland, these are literally some of the safest places on earth, and so it's funny because people have this conception of many parts of the West that aren't no longer true, and so it's, it's kind of a funny thing, but things have changed dramatically in, in the last few decades, and I think a lot of people are operating on these old preconceptions or old things that maybe at some point certain aspects were true, but now they're no longer true and things have changed. And so it's, it's time to sort of think about that a little bit. Any tips? Do you have any tips for people who are looking to set up in Dubai? Like, what does that process look like? And can you just give like a rough idea of what kind of costs they would be looking at for somebody who is thinking about those kinds of things?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:21", "start": 501.21, "text": "Yeah, so, yeah, it's, actually pretty easy to get a visa because, they really focus on attracting talents into the country. So you could get a worker or a student visa or just set up a company here or get a remote worker visa. They even have like their ten-year golden visa program for foreign talents and investors, so it's pretty easy and also the process. So you just need some basic admin steps like a medical test, an Emirates ID, a phone number. Yeah, just be aware that there are kind of you scummy visa services online, so don't get screwed, screwed by them. But apart from that, yeah, you just have to find yourself a good place to stay and get settled in. And, yeah, there are also lots of moving, moving companies that will help you, move for a cheap price, so it isn't that hard. yeah, with regards to cost, it's, it's not very costly, so a residency will cost around three to four hundred dollars, and to keep your residency sta-status, actually, one entry every half a year is enough. So you don't even have to spend much time here if you don't want to. Also, to set up a company is, is easy and not very costly. So with most licenses and activities, you can actually have one hundred percent company ownership, and the process in general shouldn't take you much more than one to two weeks usually." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "09:48", "start": 587.79, "text": "Right, yeah, and as you said, there's different pathways in, whether that is, setting up a company, buying a property here, visas under different categories, maybe skilled workers, or even things like artists and scientists and things, there are categories for those as well. so the UAE and I know Dubai is definitely trying to grow the population quite a lot, so they are quite open to having people come, but it's sort of, the way I think about it, it's like a pay-to-play system basically, you pay for that visa, whether it's, you know And that's how you get the company, and then off of that, you sponsor yourself, and so in that way, it's like a pay-to-play system, and so I think it works well if you are able to, if you already have an established business, particularly, I think th-those are probably cases where it works well, but, yeah, there are all kinds of services and people who can sort of guide you through, to speed up the process or at least help you through the process of doing documentation and getting those things set up because there's so many expats here. And, and, like you mentioned around moving companies, I think there's a lot of moving companies and support around that too, because again, there's so many expats here, there's so many From one home to another, that, you know, people might be shifting at the end of their lease or things like this, and because it's, it's quite an established thing here, it, it seems like the process works relatively quickly for that. So those are a few things there, just a few tips, and yeah, I guess the other one is, yeah, like you said, the visa cost, and then because you need to have private insurance as well, so generally that's something people have to think about, in terms of cost of living, there's a big range," }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "11:31", "start": 691.16, "text": "And ultra high net worth people here, but there's also people who aren't earning, you know, a lot of money, and so they're, they're, they, they are living, you know, obviously it's a big range in terms of the living standards, but I would say it's probably cheaper than- Big cities, let's say like a London, New York, Sydney, places like that, it's cheaper than those cities, but, you know, there are certain differences in the lifestyle, so I think that's something for people to just think about, so for example, there are some hot months in the year, in the middle of the year it can get quite hot, and so the, that time period, it can be maybe forty-five degrees Celsius, and I think in Fahrenheit that's maybe a hundred and ten or so, so it gets pretty hot at that point, so Important for people to weigh up the pros and cons and, figure out if it's, if it's the right thing for them. anything to add there?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:25", "start": 744.76, "text": "No, I think you summarized very well." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "12:27", "start": 746.9, "text": "Great, okay. Well, in terms of UAE and Dubai and Bitcoin, why are you-- why do you think the UAE and Dubai is well placed, to adopt Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:40", "start": 759.91, "text": "So there's, there's different perspectives. There's, the economic perspective, so the UAE is a very business-friendly environment with their low tax regime, as already mentioned, and the whole infrastructure. They apply free market principles here and, they are ju-diversifying their economy and they already focus on being a crypto hub. So they created embracing regulation around this market Then, yeah, there is also a huge remittance market as well. So from six hundred billion US dollar remittance money worldwide, one hundred and fifty billion actually come from the Gulf countries, and the Emirates is being the biggest chunk of it. So Bitcoin is really important for the citizens here. yeah, and then there is a social perspective. So Bitcoin, in my eyes, is, is much better aligned with the core values of the nation that are rooted in Islamic finance. So Bitcoin is anti-reba money, right? And they already understand gold, so Bitcoin is just one step further. Also, the Muslim world, they, they don't suffer from that Western woke culture, I would say, so Bitcoin in general is just falling on much more fertile ground. And yeah, they just have to find back to their core values and stop the shitcoinery basically. and maybe a third perspective is a political one. So, the UAE is a monarchy and a country with a clear vision. So the ruler of Dubai once famously said that Dubai will never settle for anything Anything less than first place. And, yeah, they just want their citizens to be happy, free and prosperous, and, yeah, they, they want to be number one, and things can be implemented very fast here. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "14:26", "start": 866.3, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. 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It's interesting the point around monarchy also, because for many Westerners who are coming from a, more of a democratic way of thinking, they have a mindset of, \"Oh, everyone needs to be able to vote on things,\" whereas I think for the people living here, it's more like You can view it like, \"This is the deal that they're offering you, right? It's these, these rules, these laws, this, you know, fee in terms of visa and licensing fees, and that's it. It's...\" And so in some ways, people can come here and not have to think as much about the local politics, in a sense, because maybe somebody in America might really get caught into different political wars or cultural battles and things like this, whereas here it's more like Like things just work and people can just go and do their work and spend time with their family, spend time with their friends. So that's something I've seen here that it doesn't seem to matter that much, like whereas some people have, you know, maybe for some people they have this mindset of, \"Oh, I need to be able to vote democratically about things,\" whereas I'm seeing it here more like, \"Well, you just compare what you're getting and if you don't like it, you leave.\" And so that's, that's how I'm seeing it. what do" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:08", "start": 1208.33, "text": "Yeah, I mean, the government is really just a service provider here, right? And the cool thing here is that you can actually talk to those people and you can have an impact. So I find it quite unique and I think it works much better than most democracies, yeah." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "20:25", "start": 1224.92, "text": "One thing we're noticing, and you've touched on this, but I think it, it would be good to expand on this idea of competitive jurisdictions, because we are seeing many parts of the world that Seem to just rest on their laurels. It's almost like they've all-- they, they feel like they've already run to the, to the front of the pack and now they can just sort of start walking or they can just start standing where they are and not really trying to actually improve. And so that to me seems like some of the Western countries They are sort of stagnating or they have certain problems, whereas other countries seem to actually be trying to be competitive. Why, why do you think that is?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:08", "start": 1267.52, "text": "Yeah, it, it just feels like in democracies nothing gets really done. And here, like, the government really has a long-term vision, so they really, they really like take a long-term stance on things, and, and this is just something totally different. And I actually enjoy living in a monarchy much more, because, yeah, it really feels like you get treated well as a citizens, and, and that is their goal to To really provide for that." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "21:37", "start": 1296.86, "text": "Right, yeah. I mean, to be clear though, w- you're, you're saying citizens there, but you mean residents, right? Like, because- Residents, yeah. But yeah, but yeah, basically, i- the, I mean, that, that is also a trade-off, right? Like, because it's not that easy to get to become a citizen here, and it's more like you get a, you know, you're paying for a residency right, and then while you're here, you know, you can benefit from," }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "22:07", "start": 1326.84, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about the Bitcoin Association then. What are you hoping to achieve there?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:13", "start": 1332.88, "text": "Yeah, so we just see a gap in the UAE. So with that hyper focus they have on, on cryptos, the nation really deviated from some of its core principles that are rooted in, in Islamic finance, and we just want to get the message out that Bitcoin is, in our eyes, better aligned with those core values of the nation. And as you know, there is a lively Bitcoin community already here, right, Stefan? So we both love those brunches and dinners and Bitcoin meetups that are regularly happening here. But we just want, to help more Bitcoin businesses settle here and grow the Bitcoin community overall and advocate for Bitcoin. So that's the main purpose of the Bitcoin Association." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "22:55", "start": 1375.43, "text": "So what will the Bitcoin Association do? Like, what are the main functions it will perform?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:03", "start": 1383.03, "text": "Well, we're, we're just launching, so we're figuring out, the details, but we see ourselves as a consultant, so we really want to, to help people set up, companies here. We want to help, with like, investors and high net worth individuals, those kind of people, to get into Bitcoin, to understand Bitcoin. We want to advocate on Bitcoin also on the governmental level. So, yeah, let's see where, where the journey will go." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "23:30", "start": 1409.91, "text": "Great. And, when it comes to- Projects and things that are happening here in Dubai and in the UAE, what, what are you seeing there? What can you share, for listeners who aren't here and aren't really aware of what's happening here?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:45", "start": 1425.15, "text": "Well, we see, actually very interesting developments in the UAE already. So for example, some free zones accept Bitcoin, and also the large real estate developers, MR and Dammac here, they accept Bitcoin. But especially interesting is the Bitcoin mining industry here in the Emirates. So, the mining industry makes for about four percent of global hash rate already. This is quite astounding. So they have a, an interesting energy mix as well, so, that they use for mining. So they, they would use, flare gas to nuclear and also solar energy, so many different sources and very cheap electricity. So for example, Marathon Digital, together with 02, they have a two hundred and fifty megawatt facility in Abu Dhabi, or the Phoenix Group had an IPO on Abu Dhabi Securities Exchange for three hundred and seventy million dollars. So there's definitely lots going on already" }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "24:48", "start": 1487.62, "text": "Yeah, and, like you mentioned, some of the free zones, so these are places where you can go and set up a business, and so there's different types of businesses. Some people set up a mainland company and other people set up a free zone company. And so as you mentioned, there is a free zone, not in Dubai, but in, Ras Al Khaimah, which is another emirate, for people who aren't familiar, it's, it's like another state of the UAE. And they, one of their free zones actually takes Bitcoin Set up an entity, set up a company there. So that's interesting. And like you mentioned, some of the big developers here, IMR and DAMAC, who are some of the biggest here, take Bitcoin payment. So that's another angle that may be interesting for people who want to come and set up here, buy a property with Bitcoin, and there's even a golden visa thing here. So for people who buy a property above, I think it's two million dirhams So I think in US dollar terms, that's maybe five hundred and fifty thousand, five hundred and sixty thousand, something like that, and so that is, that entitles the person for a ten-year automatically renewing visa, so long as you own that property. So there's definitely different, pathways in and things that people are doing, In terms of, yeah, like you said, companies setting up here, and mine-- Bitcoin mining happening here. So let's talk now about Bitcoin Oasis. So this event coming up February, so about a month away. Tell us a little bit about this event and what are you, what are you hoping to achieve here?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:21", "start": 1581.14, "text": "So Bitcoin Oasis is the first conference hosted by the Bitcoin Association UAE, and it's gonna happen from February eight to nine. we have quite, an amazing lineup from Adam Back, Prince Philip of Serbia is joining us, Marcia Long, Chuck Musco, Pietrizzo, Alan Frankton, and, yeah, many more. You, Stefan, are gonna be there." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "26:42", "start": 1602.0, "text": "Yep." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:42", "start": 1602.28, "text": "So, Bitcoin Oasis is a two-day Bitcoin only business conference, so we're gonna cover really the fundamental- Tells why Bitcoin not crypto. We are discussing Islamic finance and investments, and Bitcoin mining is also gonna be a big topic at the conference. So our second day then will be held, yeah, it will be something quite unconventional. So, we will host it, on a yacht to just, yeah, create a relaxed atmosphere for networking. And then we also organize an after event, which is a community day that will be open to everyone. So the broader Bitcoin community will have a chance to also meet all the speakers and Bitcoiners that are flying in for the conference. So yeah, that's, just a quick overview. So, yeah, if you wanna find out more about the conference, best visit, our website, which is bitcoin-dash-oasis dot com." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "27:45", "start": 1664.51, "text": "Great. And so I guess people might be interested just to learn a little bit about the culture of Dubai. What is it like to live here and, you know, just be here? Can you just talk to that a little bit in terms of your experience, here in Dubai?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:01", "start": 1680.94, "text": "Well, I, I really fell in love with the country and, and with the city. It's, I really like being here. The culture is really open and, and, and tolerant, and the diversity is just, is just amazing. And also in terms of business opportunities, it's probably one of the best places. so yeah, I, I really love the culture here. I, I love the Arab culture as well, just the hospitality that you will encounter, it's just, it's just great. So, yeah, for me, it's the place." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "28:34", "start": 1713.67, "text": "You also mentioned, an aspect of the people you can meet. I think this is something I can relate to also, that, you just meet interesting people, because there are interesting people who are either coming through Dubai, maybe they have some connection with Dubai, or they live in Dubai. And so that's something I've found in Dubai, that there are meet up groups for all kinds of things. So, like you said, we've got the Bitcoin Dubai meetup, there's, you know, all kinds of different meetups going on, and so there's just different ways to meet people And, you know, whether you're interested in like entrepreneurship or investing, there are, there are events and groups and, and meetups and things going on. So it's interesting from that perspective too, because you can meet other like-minded people or other entrepreneurs or other investors. And so I think that's also another interesting angle to me that, you, because there's so many expats coming, that people are a little more open to making new friends, whereas maybe in other countries, people might be a little more closed off because there's- Maybe it's a little bit more of like a click sort of thing, like unless you went to high school with them or you went to university with them or you worked with them, it's sort of hard to make new friends. Whereas I find it relatively easy to make new friends here in Dubai because, because there's so many expats and people are just Maybe just a bit happier on average. it's hard to speak about why, maybe it's just, you know, the culture or the way things are here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:55", "start": 1795.44, "text": "I would agree, yeah." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "29:58", "start": 1798.5, "text": "Yeah, okay. so I think those are probably the key things. do you have any closing thoughts for listeners on, considering the UAE, Bitcoin, Dubai, anything there?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:13", "start": 1813.29, "text": "no, just, just a big thank you to you, Stefan, for having me on your podcast and also, for all you're doing for the Bitcoin community in Dubai. It's really a great pleasure having you around, and yeah, would, would love to, to see some, some more Bitcoiners at Bitcoin Oasis for sure. That would be great." }, { "speaker": "lara_eggiman", "time": "30:31", "start": 1830.73, "text": "Great, okay. And, I guess just before we close out, bitcoin-oasis dot com and, try code Livera as well. basically any, any Bitcoin thing, just try code Livera, there's a good chance it'll work. but, yeah, thanks Lara, thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:47", "start": 1846.7, "text": "Thank you so much." } ] }