{ "episodeId": "SLP543", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "and_he": { "name": "and he", "role": "guest", "tag": "AND" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.48, "text": "Hi, this is Stephan Livera podcast, a show brought to you by Swan Dot Com. Today my guest is Seb Goupil. He is the CEO of BBGS, that's Big Block Green Services. He's a French Bitcoin miner, entrepreneur, and speaker, and we're talking today about his experiences with Bitcoin mining around the world in some very interesting situations. So notably, he speaks about Bitcoin mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in Oman, as well as Elsewhere around the world. Here's my show with Seb." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:45", "start": 44.75, "text": "Seb, welcome to the show. I know you're doing a lot of interesting things, and, I've seen you referred to as the Indiana Jones of Bitcoin mining, so welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "00:54", "start": 54.23, "text": "Thank you so much. it's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:56", "start": 55.99, "text": "an" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "00:56", "start": 56.09, "text": "honor." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:58", "start": 58.25, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about your work in Bitcoin mining, and you started, we've got some, it looks like you've got, you know, you've got operations, you know, around the world, but we'll start with, the Congo. I think that would be really interesting for listeners. So can you tell us how did you end up going to the Congo, a-and how did you get in touch with Emmanuel de Murode? Ha," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "01:24", "start": 83.63, "text": "it was at the beginning of 2020, I was contacted by a French constructor of hydro power plants. he told me that a provider of green electricity In Africa was interested in mining, in Bitcoin mining, and he proposed meeting up at a chateau in Angers, not far from my home. So, we went with my associate, Adrien. it was a little bit mysterious because we, we didn't know exactly who was the, this, this client, who was this guy from Africa. And so during the, the meeting, we discovered that the client was the boss of the Virunga Park, in Congo, in DRC, and we discovered his project mining at a new hydro power plant. Later, on the train home, we looked online and saw who this incredible man was, a prince of Belgium, Emmanuel de Merode, and we- So that Virunga was the most dangerous park, national park, in the world." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:34", "start": 154.48, "text": "So weren't you scared about going and operating in the Congo?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "02:40", "start": 159.96, "text": "Emmanuel and his teams were real fighters for the environment, true heroes, and they were asking us for help. So, if he and his staff could work there Why couldn't we? So we weren't scared, no, we, we just went." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:06", "start": 185.55, "text": "Okay, and as You know, from what I've read, it sounds like there is a rebel militia in the territory or M23 or others. Can you explain a little bit there? Of course," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "03:18", "start": 198.28, "text": "the, the M23 are very present. they mainly o-occupied the Romangabo area. It was the, the headquarters of the Virunga Park, so they have to move the, the structure. But you don't have only the M23, you, you have the ADF. from Uganda, who are the most, bloodthirsty group, you have the FDLR, Rwandan group who are enemies of the M23. But, that isn't, all. There is the CODECO, the FRPI, the FPLC, the LRA. The jungle is infested with rebel troops. Gangs, in fact, who live from poaching, illegal, fishing and racketeering. There are one hundred and twenty-five, one hundred and thirty groups, armed groups operating there Including the Mai Mai and the Mai Mai were the small local groups who are even just the plant where we work on the Louvre River." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:30", "start": 270.24, "text": "Yeah, so there is definitely a threat there. So let's talk a little bit, as you mentioned, the Virunga National Park. Can you explain a little bit about the context of this opportunity to go and do Bitcoin mining there?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "04:46", "start": 285.83, "text": "i-it was simple. I-it's a global project, from Emanuel. The project is to, to create one hundred and ten megawatts in the region. Now they're opening a, a new plant, so they will reach, sixty megawatts. And when they op- when they opened the, the last one on Louvi- Louviere River, they are not ready s- bec-because," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "05:16", "start": 315.52, "text": "how to, how to explain? at the completion of the plant," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "05:23", "start": 322.97, "text": "it, it was a very difficult period for the park financially. ecotourism couldn't continue as normal, firstly because of Ebola and then COVID, and so income dropped by forty percent for the park and at the same moment, in the region surrounding the new plant, be-be-gan to become dangerous with considerably, which considerably delayed the deployment of the network. You, you can pull the line when it's, it's far, it's very difficult to, to send electrician in the, in the forest, they are targets. So the revenue expected from the sale of electricity, is zero. a-and that was when Emmanuel, Heard about mining as a last resort customer for hydroelectricity, and he contacted me at this moment." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:19", "start": 379.11, "text": "I see. And so as I'm understanding, in, in many cases, a-and maybe in this case, it's using surplus energy to mine Bitcoin. So was that- The basic argument here or the basic, case here?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "06:36", "start": 396.06, "text": "Yes, it's exactly what we, we used to do, everywhere, but, in this place it was particular because it, it was one hundred percent of the capacity of production," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "06:52", "start": 411.67, "text": "un-unusable. it, it had nothing to do with this electricity at this moment. Now they are pulling the lines and, We, we take only ten megawatts on the fifteen, so we have the capacity to, to send electricity to people, and the project is to reduce the mining, years after years as soon as it's- As it is possible. So we, we buy the electricity, very cheap, and as soon as they, they are in capacity to sell electricity to population, to local industry or local factories, we have to, to go out It, it, it's a question of, profitability." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:34", "start": 453.51, "text": "I see. And so from what I understand that there are multiple hydro plants there, is there talk? Some people talk about this idea of having Bitcoin as part of, using Bitcoin to make the economic case for more hydro power plants to be built. Is that the case here also? Absolutely not." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "07:56", "start": 476.04, "text": "No, the, all, all this project about, one hundred and ten megawatts, supported by the park, is to bring electricity to the population for development and slow down deforestation. Yeah, because I, I didn't explain, but the idea at the beginning is to stop the deforestation because the, the principal energy in, in this region, in North Kivu, is the Makala, it's, charcoal. So they cut the tree is in the forest to make the charcoal and, Emmanuel imagine with, this new energy, the electricity, they stop to use the charcoal and they stop to, to cut the trees. it's, it's really simple. So the goal of, of these hydro power plants is, is to give electricity to population, not for mining. But the top management of the park now know that this economic- Economic crutch exists, and mining can be deployed in extreme conditions very rapidly, it can be huge or very modest. And it can leave just as, as easily as it arrived, as needed. So the creation of a plant in this region will never be justified for Bitcoin alone, but the fact of having a customer base is a guarantee that the loan installments are paid, and that is a game changer. In Africa, that is a real game changer." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:27", "start": 567.33, "text": "Interesting. And so, as you mentioned, this started in twenty twenty, the mining, Bitcoin mining. How has it fared since then?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "09:40", "start": 580.32, "text": "the operation has improved over time. We now have," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "09:48", "start": 588.43, "text": "eighty-five, eighty-eight, We have a uptime of FT eighty-eight percent, yes, in December. And I believe this is one of the stormiest region in the world, there is lightning every night. s- Sometimes the lightning is so intense, that it seems like daylight at midnight. therefore the plant often has to stop. But the teams have, reduced their intervention time, and we are quite proud of our result at the end of, twenty twenty-three. eighty-five, eighty-eight percent, is, is not so bad in this region, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:29", "start": 628.56, "text": "And so I'm also curious in terms of upfront capital investment And I presume you had to, you know, the park had to put up some money or potentially you and the company had to put up money to get mining rigs. Was that a, a challenge there or, you know, how did that sort of build into the case to do Bitcoin mining there?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "10:53", "start": 652.98, "text": "w-we share the investment, so the idea, the park wasn't reached at, at this moment. So we invest in the first container and we bought, a second container and w-we start only with two containers. It was the, during the bear market, the ASICs were very cheap, so we spent two hundred, two hundred twenty thousand dollars, something like that, only. And, but now we have- Eleven containers, so the total, investment in something like, eight, ten million dollars." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:30", "start": 690.18, "text": "I see. And so then, how are you thinking about questions like mining rig useful life, right? If, if the, if after- Let's say four to seven years, I think, or something like this. are you, you're just gonna have to recycle or change, the mining rigs at that point?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "11:51", "start": 710.6, "text": "we repair a lot. We are so isolated that everything has to be done on site, even the most delicate repairs. On site, we have some S9 from, twenty sixteen, so we can say it's eight" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:06", "start": 726.06, "text": "years I see. Yeah, so you, you're just able to operate with these very, you know, old mining rigs by having, on-site repairs?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "12:15", "start": 735.19, "text": "Yeah. Yes. We, we stop with the S9, BBG stop with the S9, but the park continues to, to, to manage the S9 because they don't pay the electricity, so it's- It's interesting now. Yeah. Interesting. And so, yeah, it's, it's not a, a big income, but it works, so they can sell the electricity to the S nine." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:37", "start": 756.94, "text": "Yeah, it's kind of fascinating like that it can just happen in this part of the world. and so what about the threat of, as we mentioned earlier, militias or gangs? Was there any threat that they would try to take the machines or that they would maybe ha-threaten the rangers or the mining operation stuff?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "12:57", "start": 777.25, "text": "The Mai Mai are interested in, in cash and weapons, only. But we can imagine they attack the farm, but attacking the farm," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "13:08", "start": 788.07, "text": "it's attacking the plant because we are on the plant and, and the plant is, guarded by rangers, so it's risky for, for the Mai Mai. The danger is on the road, during the transfers. yes, we, we can be attacked, at, every moment." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:26", "start": 805.68, "text": "Wow, yeah, I mean, it must be very confronting in that way, but, I suppose you, you have to have armed security and, you know, the ranges, to protect the machines." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "13:36", "start": 816.34, "text": "Yeah, in, in the farm we are, we are, it's a peaceful place, but because we are, we are with the rangers. But on the road, the rangers can be attacked by the mymyma, and it's, it's often the last, two hundred twenty rangers For twelve years, fifteen years, yeah. So it's, it's very dangerous for the rangers, and if you are close to the rangers, you can, you can take a, a, a bullet, yeah, sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:08", "start": 848.0, "text": "Yeah, confronting. but I, I guess just looking at the, this Congo project that you've been doing in Virunga Park overall, I guess it's an interesting story, isn't it, that this park turned to Bitcoin mining at the time that their revenue was low and they needed ways to make money, and this is, yeah, just a really interesting story, I guess. Do you have any other thoughts to, close that out or any, any other, Things to just share on the Virunga Park?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "14:41", "start": 881.01, "text": "Yes, we have a, a, a new project, very interesting. You know, on the first power pla-- hydro power plant they, they built, there's a big, economical activity now on the, the Mekto clay. I don't know if I gave you a tablet of, Virunga's Mekto clay." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:59", "start": 898.8, "text": "you mentioned it to me. I haven't, I don't think I got one. But yeah, go on." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "15:02", "start": 902.28, "text": "Next time. So now it's a big production production and they need to dry the, the cocoa beans, with a special dryer, an industrial dryer. And, we imagine with Emmanuel to dry the cocoa beans with a container of mining. So we are building this container right now, and we can say, in March, I think, that all the, the chocolate from the Virunga Park is dried by mining, so it will be the, the- Bitcoin chocolate, the real Bitcoin chocolate, yeah. But it's really interesting because the, the price of, professional dry off of this cocoa beans is around, Two hundred, three hundred thousand dollars. So it's expensive and it's only a dryer. So we, we bought together the, the small mining container, it's twenty feet, so it's a small one with, one hundred eighty ASICs inside, and it's profitable immediately, so it's, it's a win-win, dryer." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:15", "start": 975.44, "text": "Yeah, and that's interesting because as I'm sure you have seen, there are some people who talk about this idea of having Bitcoin mining devices that are also a heater for the home, but in this case, you're using the Bitcoin mining to, for the heating, the chocolate." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "16:30", "start": 990.44, "text": "Yes, and, and in another place, not where we have the farm. Where we have the farm, we have the same project to dry something, but not to dry the cocoa beans, to dry the fruits, and you can create the leather fruits, the name is, it's, It's good to eat, very good to eat, and you can keep the fruits, on a long term. And in Africa, you have a lot of fruits, it's a, a big resource. So they lost a lot of fruits and- This, this is a, a potential, big factory. We, because you know, with the mining, we can say, okay, you take electricity, you give money, but you don't create, jobs. And I, it's right, we have few jobs, we have fifteen people working directly for the farm, and with the fruits, we can imagine to have two hundred people working in the factory. So now it's, it's time to find, development with this it. Yeah, sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:33", "start": 1052.61, "text": "Interesting. So it's not just a mining play now, it's also a chocolate, business, yeah, and food business, yeah." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "17:39", "start": 1059.4, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:40", "start": 1060.5, "text": "Interesting, okay. But it's" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "17:42", "start": 1062.2, "text": "very important because all the project is to give, electricity to stop the deforestation, but to give jobs to people. i-i-in Congo, in, in North Kivu, you have, seventy-five percent of young people, unemployed. So it's very important to, to imagine something to give jobs. And, the chocolate was a very good idea from Emmanuel, and they don't do only chocolate, they, they do- To soap, they do oil, so for one megawatt, you, you, you have to think, the potential is to create ten thousand jobs for one megawatt. Interesting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:24", "start": 1103.83, "text": "Okay, yeah. And so that aspect of it is, is just keeping and sustaining the park, and trying to create economic opportunities in the area. so I guess there's, you know, like you said, there's a part of it that's Bitcoin mining and part of it that's just- Other things related to how you can use that hydropower," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "18:45", "start": 1125.32, "text": "yeah? The, the Bitcoin mining is just a, a tool for Emmanuel. He's not a, a Bitcoiner at, at the beginning, you know? The first time he, he told me the name, the, the word Bitcoin, Bitcoin, because he used to say blockchain, the blockchain container, and, I think it was, At, at the beginning of, 2021, he called me, Saturday morning and he told me, \"Your Bitcoin is saving the park.\" You, you told, you told Bitcoin, Manuel, yeah. So it was the first time after six months he, he used the, the word Bitcoin and not blockchain. He understood that Bitcoin was helping the park, not the, not the blockchain. But for him it's just a tool. He's not a big fan of Bitcoin or something like that. They, they don't care. They sell all the Bitcoin every month to pay the people to pay the runners." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:43", "start": 1183.38, "text": "I see, yeah. And with Virunga National Park, has the tourism there come back up now, now that, you know, COVID and all that stuff is, all the shutdowns are done?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "19:56", "start": 1196.45, "text": "Yeah, and now it's too dangerous to, to continue the eco-tourism at the moment, yeah. When, when we arrived in twenty twenty, it was dangerous, but now it's, it's the real war everywhere. It's very, very dangerous. So for the tourism, it's, it's It's impossible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:15", "start": 1215.28, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. CoinKite dot com are the makers of my favorite Bitcoin hardware, such as the Cold Card, and they've got the upcoming Q device coming also. Using Bitcoin hardware devices is a great way to help segregate your private keys from the internet connected world. So what you're doing here is you can generate the private keys on that device, or you can even bring them separately with, say, dice rolls, and now you can have that device, you- Used as the signing device while you use a separate application such as Sparrow, Specter, Electrum, or others as your coordinating application. So that's a really great way to help improve the security of our coins by keeping the keys segregated away from the online connected world. So if you wanna get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code Livera, and don't forget they've got a range of other products such as the metal seed plate, which you can use as a metal seed backup. For your, twelve or twenty-four words. So that's coinkite dot com, use code livera for a discount on your cold cards. This show is also brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I use it all the time when I need to keep an eye on what's going on in the mempool, and you can search transactions by taking the transaction ID and pasting that into mempool dot space, and you can search and check transactions about things like, did they confirm or what is some of the information? information around that transaction, such as RBF or other info that you might be interested in. And there's various dashboards, such as a mining dashboard, a Lightning dashboard. You can use mempool.space to track Liquid as well for those of you who are interested in that. And they are continually rolling out new features all the time, such as the mempool goggles. And they also have a transaction accelerator coming up, so if you're interested in that, make sure to go and sign up on the waitlist. That's mempool.space/slash-accelerator. And now Now, back to my show with Seb. Oh, interesting. Okay, so they, so they really do still need to keep doing Bitcoin mining as well? Yeah. It's not just like they can sort of dial the Bitcoin mining back down and just go back to tourism stuff now, they still have to keep doing that." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "22:28", "start": 1348.43, "text": "Yeah, at the moment, mining is very important as a re-resource for the park. We, it's something like a one hundred thousand dollar a month, so you can imagine that the government of Congo gives a one hundred thousand dollar a year to the park." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:44", "start": 1363.88, "text": "Oh, interesting. So it, it really makes a big difference to the financial bottom line or the financial status of the parks for them to do Bitcoin mining? Yeah, really interesting story." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "22:54", "start": 1374.29, "text": "Absolutely. It's, it's a very, very regular income, you know? So, yes, for them it's, it's really interesting. They, they like it. It was a very good idea from Emmanuel. Imagine this guy is, is, is, he, he's fifty-four years old. My age is in the jungle, in, in the middle of the war, and he thinks about Bitcoin mining. Wow!" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:23", "start": 1402.71, "text": "Yeah, crazy. I mean, it's, yeah, definitely different. I, I know you also are involved in, obviously you have Bitcoin mining projects around the world. I know you also have a project in Oman. so can you tell us a little bit about how you ended up doing Bitcoin mining in Oman?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "23:40", "start": 1420.22, "text": "Yes, it, it was simple. We have, friends in the country, and one of them contacted me in twenty twenty-one. He was leading a project, a big project, a data and crypto hub called Green Data City. In Salalah, in Oman." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:57", "start": 1437.25, "text": "Yeah. Great. And so this project in Green Data City Is the government involved in that mining project or is this a private project? Can you explain that?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "24:10", "start": 1450.37, "text": "No, it's, it's a public-private project. The government supports the development of Green Data City. They are facilitating the installation of industrial miners in that location. And during the inauguration, in twenty twenty-two, we had the, the Minister of, IT And transport, Sir Al Mawali. so he, he was present and he, he, he made the inauguration of the farm, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:42", "start": 1482.21, "text": "Interesting, yeah. We'll, we'll put up some images of that. and so just out of curiosity, was it hard to get government permission to do Bitcoin mining? How early were the discussions around that? Like you said, that was in twenty twenty-one, and then twenty twenty-two, mining had started. So can you tell us a little bit about Getting government permissions there and whether you faced any resistance there?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "25:08", "start": 1508.49, "text": "At the beginning, the green data city was not for Bitcoin, was not, The project wasn't Bitcoin mining. The project was, data centers," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "25:24", "start": 1523.58, "text": "but it wasn't ready for that as data center, so we offer to, to make mining, and the, the, the founder of the Green Data City, made the job, talking with the authorities, with the government And basically, now you have to have an official license for Green Data City that covers the data and Bitcoin mining zone, and we signed an agreement with them for the installation of a proof of concept just after the inauguration in twenty twenty-two." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:57", "start": 1557.33, "text": "And so what, what is the size of the Bitcoin mining project there, and will it grow in the future?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "26:06", "start": 1566.18, "text": "for us, for BBGS, we have only two containers on, on site at the moment. But everything is going well, so we plan to expand to thirty or fifty megawatts in the next two years. It's not the emergency, we open the way and we want to develop in, in, in Oman, but, We have, we have projects in Africa which are more urgent because they are more useful. Interesting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:38", "start": 1598.03, "text": "And so, are you able to share, or if you're not able to share, let us know. But what kind of electricity prices are they, are, are you getting in Oman?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "26:49", "start": 1609.4, "text": "As the prices of electricity to the miners, I can say, the electricity prices are competitive. It depends on, of the capacity. but, the, the main criteria is that we have a fixed, price, in the, in the contract for the next eight years. This is one of the reasons why we have chosen that country. we want to avoid any risk of energy prices, rising." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:22", "start": 1641.73, "text": "I see. Yeah, so it's really about the long-term stability that they can give you. And what kind of e-e-energy is like, what type of energy, are we talking about here?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "27:33", "start": 1653.09, "text": "Flare gas and solar. Okay, interesting. Yes. Yeah, it, it, you know, they, they don't have flare gas because they built a, a big, plant, a gas plant to- To make electricity, but they have not enough client for this plant. So, if they don't use this electricity, they have to, to open the, the flares. So It's a very logic project. They have electricity and if they don't use the gas, they burn the gas. I see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:05", "start": 1685.28, "text": "And so I'm curious as well on the solar aspect. Does that mean you're, you obviously must be turning the miners off at nighttime or like, is it just you have to try to make the project work only in the time when the sun is shining, obviously?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "28:23", "start": 1702.73, "text": "Hey, it's a very good question. Now, in this place, we have gas and solar, so we can take the solar during the day and the gas during the night. Yep. I see. Okay. But interesting. When, when you have a, a project only on solar, it's exactly, as you, as you say, we have to think, we work only forty percent, of the, of the day, so we have to, to buy very cheap assets. But it can work. I have some, Some project i-i-in Spain, for example, working for years." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:56", "start": 1736.33, "text": "Oh, interesting. So I guess it-it means you have to use really cheap ASICs to make it worthwhile, because otherwise, you, you, you won't be profitable on just, let's say, forty percent, you know? Yes. Yes." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "29:09", "start": 1749.06, "text": "It, it was totally impossible ten years ago to, to make, to do mining on the solar plants, because you, you didn't have a be-available, cheap ASICs. Now we have very cheap ASICs, so we can imagine a very- A cheap farm on solar plants. I, I, it can exist, it, it exists. I have, I know two farms like it in Russia and one in Spain. So they, they work only during the, the sunny moments." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:36", "start": 1776.07, "text": "And then I wonder, does that- Also get tricky with the seasons, right? If the, you know, obviously in summer is the best time, but then, you know, in winter season, does that mean you just have to have the mining rigs off more? you want to say, in" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "29:53", "start": 1793.02, "text": "Oman or?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:55", "start": 1794.93, "text": "Yeah, I, I guess just in general. I guess in Oman, let's talk about in Oman. I don't" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "30:01", "start": 1800.55, "text": "know. So in Oman, it's, it's, it's very interesting because there, there, there is a microclimate in the south of, of Oman, in the region of Salalah, where we are. so you end up with between twenty-eight and thirty degrees in July and August, while the rest of, Middle East is, at forty-five degrees. another interesting point, i-i-is the presence, in, in this region in Salalah is the presence of cold deep ocean water, And this can be used for SWAC. The SWAC is the seawater air conditioning, and it will be, it will be coming in twenty twenty-five in the Green Data City. so the, the SWAC reduce-reduces the energy needed for cooling by ninety percent, something like that. it's already used in Tahiti, in Hawaii, in Japan, and in France, in, in Marseille for a data, data center, classical, traditional data center. for example. So we believe that this location is the be-best place for sustainable mining in, in Vash region, as you reduce the electricity needed for, for cooling, for cooling the machines to, to a minimum Currently in Oman, we, we use six percent of our electricity, for cooling, and it's," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:34", "start": 1894.1, "text": "great achievement in this region. I said, \"Yeah,\" because I guess that kind of flows into, another question I had about how do you make it work in the climate of Oman? Because obviously in the Middle East, it's very hot. But as you mentioned, I guess you're saying the answer is it's this region that has a particularly good climate for Bitcoin mining." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "31:55", "start": 1914.54, "text": "Yes, when we installed the, the Aziz, yes, we, we got 30 degrees maximum, so it was very hot in the containers. But, it was not the same in Dubai. When we land in Dubai, it was 45, yes. So" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "32:12", "start": 1932.1, "text": "It's not easy to work with thirty degrees, but with forty-five degrees, I don't know how they can do. and I visited one farm in, in Dubai And they used the hydro system from Bitmain, and it was a catastrophe. They used a quantity of water totally crazy in the desert." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:34", "start": 1954.26, "text": "Yeah. So as you mentioned on Dubai there, do you have any thoughts on Bitcoin mining in the Middle East generally? do you, do you see it as, it's just going to be hard because of the climate or maybe it's good for other reasons?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "32:48", "start": 1967.95, "text": "It's good because you have a excess of energy as everywhere. So the mining is booming in the Middle East at the moment. We have just seen Marathon open a two hundred megawatts farm with, with their partner, zero two. And the recent, very successful IPO of the Phoenix Group at four billion dollars. They also operate in Green Data City in Oman and, and their neighbors on the side. I'm, I'm bullish of the development of mining, in Middle East, but i-of mining in general, my, mining is useful where there is excess energy And the Middle East has a lot of flares, a lot of solar plants, and they are building a lot of solar plants. So yes, it's going to become a, an important area for mining. But for me, it's in Africa that the potential is the greatest, and above all, that's where mining is the most useful. Bitcoin mining pays five billion dollar a year to the electricity sector in the world. And this money will be more useful in Africa than every anywhere else to support access to electricity for populations. So, so that's where we are, we are concentrating our efforts, and it's, it is why we are not, in the hurry to develop in Oman. We prefer to develop in Africa right now." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:19", "start": 2059.29, "text": "I see. And as you mentioned, you mentioned Spain, Russia, Oman, the Congo, Yeah. So" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "34:25", "start": 2065.08, "text": "Spain is, isn't my, my project, is the project, from a friend of mine, John, he's a, a Spanish miner, and he, he opened the farms in, in Russia only, on solar plants, in twenty nineteen. Yeah. And so we have, we have some miners in," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:46", "start": 2086.11, "text": "in Europe. Yeah. And I, I'm curious as well your thoughts on stable environment, right? And what I mean is government environment, because as I'm sure you are well aware, and anyone who's really closely following, there was a lot of mining that went to Kazakhstan. And then what happened is Kazakhstan put in a lot of new rules and, I believe, new taxes that basically chased a lot of the Kazakhstan Bitcoin miners out. Do you see a similar potential with other- Other countries or do you, you know, do you see that there'll be certain countries who are going to commit to providing a stable environment or stable rules so that you can have a stable, you know, business case to do Bitcoin mining?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "35:27", "start": 2127.22, "text": "Yes. I, I know very well the situation in Kazakhstan because we, we opened the first farm, In this region, in Kazakhstan, in 2018, and it was a paradise. We take the electricity on the hydropower plant, and we, we were alone, at this moment, you had only, One miner from," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "35:50", "start": 2149.88, "text": "I don't remember the name, a builder of Azix," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "35:55", "start": 2154.84, "text": "Valery Vavilov, do you know this guy? And no, he is the founder of this company. So we were the only two miners in the region in Kazakhstan, and we saw the many, many miners, coming from Kazakhstan and from China after the ban. And it was very, very dangerous when we saw all this miner coming, without regulation. We were sure, it will be dangerous at the moment for the network And, in twenty twenty, the, the govern- when they changed of government, I think it was at the beginning of twenty twenty one, they cut the mining, to, to identify the white miners and the gray miners. And at this moment, we saw, i-i-it was, dangerous to stay in this country, so we moved to Russia all the, all the assets we had, all the containers, and we moved to Siberia Where we had a, a, a farm for two years, three years at, at this moment. So, now when we come in a country, we open the country, so we explain to the government the mistakes, they don't have to do. if you, if you let, come in the miners, in, it's, anarchy, and they take the, the electricity everywhere, and it can be dangerous because they can cut the electricity For populations. so it's the advice, the advice we, we gave to the government of Bukele, for example, in, in El Salvador, we, we wrote, a document explaining, they, they have to give licenses for mining. If, at the beginning, w-we, we have, a smart regulation for mining, it's totally win-win for the country and for the miners." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:51", "start": 2271.28, "text": "I see, yeah. So it's about planning out and making sure that you have, that the government and whoever's providing the power is planning out for this number of miners. I guess- Yeah," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "38:02", "start": 2281.65, "text": "be-b-because we have to work on the on surplus. If we start, you know, in Kazakhstan, the electricity is cheap. If you connect on the, on the network, it's cheap. And it's en- it's enough to, to build a mining farm, but it's not good. It's not an excess electricity. It's cheap because the government g-gives help, like a subsidy to people, yeah. So the electricity isn't profitable in the country, but, It's cheap for people, and if the miner come and take all the electricity, i-i-it's not good. So the government has to be prepared, to be ready, if they have very cheap electricity. They can accept miners, but only on the plans where they need miners." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:49", "start": 2328.91, "text": "I see, yeah. And so if you could just explain a little bit of what happened with Kazakhstan when-- So my understanding is, you know, after the China mining ban in twenty twenty, it was, I think it was late twenty twenty, around September, if I recall correctly, was it twenty twenty one? either way, after that China mining ban, there was just a massive shift of miners who went there, and then, I don't know the exact re- Rules and new regulations and taxes that came in, could you just explain a little bit about what happened there in, you know, from the Kazakhstan side? I think in," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "39:23", "start": 2363.11, "text": "in fact, they keep the Kazakhstan, miners and, and they, they put out the, the strangers. so I, I, it is What I am understanding, but," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "39:41", "start": 2381.16, "text": "I think the new government was afraid about all these miners in the country and, because w- We don't have proof that the mining cut the electricity for people. You can read in the newspapers that the miners, cause of the miners, you, you had the revolution, but, there's no proof about it. But the new government after the revolution, after the, the putsch, the, the, the unsuccessful, putsch, they decide to cut the mining and to study this, this business, and it was a mistake they have to To do the, the business before in twenty seventeen when we came, yep." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:22", "start": 2422.31, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. The lead sponsor of this show is Swan dot com, the leading Bitcoin only native financial services brand. Over at Swan dot com or using the Swan applications on your iPhone or Android, you can buy Bitcoin, and this is a really great way to buy Bitcoin and also learn about Bitcoin. Swan makes all kinds of resources available to help teach people to really become a Bitcoiner, right? It's not just sort of holding it on this some- Other platform where somebody else is holding it for you. Swan wants you to self-custody, and Swan is trying to help actually orange pill and teach people about Bitcoin and why it stands for freedom and various other concepts. Swan is trying to really win the race so that we don't have to fight the war. That's something Cory has spoken about at Pacific Bitcoin, and there is various, you know, content and podcasts where he talks about this. So if you're interested in signing up and stacking with Swan, you can do lump sum buys or- Or you can do an automated Bitcoin savings plan and just regularly accumulate some Bitcoin. So if you wanna do that, go to swan dot com slash livera. And now back to the show with Seb. Right. And so, so then I guess bringing that more to Africa, as you mentioned, you're obviously, excited about the opportunities in Africa. Do you see, a potential that a similar thing could happen, that let's say, lots of Bitcoin miners all converge to, you know, a few countries in Africa? And then the grid there starts to suffer. Do you see a similar potential there or do you think it'll be different in Africa?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "41:56", "start": 2516.4, "text": "Yes, it will be different in Africa, sure, because," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "42:03", "start": 2523.01, "text": "It's not the same case, the, the, in general, in, in the countries where, where I work, you don't have the network, you, you don't have a national network. You had it in, in Kazakhstan, it was old, but, It was existing. You, you don't have it in, in Kenya, in Uganda, in Congo, in the other Congo, in, Central Africa. in, in, in the center of Africa, you have, in general, less than ten percent of people having electricity at home. so it's totally different. They are building new small networks, regional, networks, and, and I think It's not the same danger. And normally, we, we are leading the, the way, so we explain to the governments," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "42:57", "start": 2577.24, "text": "Be careful, about, mining. It can be very interesting for the country, but you have to manage it at the beginning now and to identify, and to identify where it's useful, where you have too much electricity. And the hydro power plants in Africa, y-y-you have more and more, we are building the, the network now, so we are b-we are building the, the hydroelectric, plants. And when you open, it's impossible to have, the, the supply and the demand, at the same level. You have too much electricity when you open, always, everywhere. So, mining can be very, very useful for, for, for the African countries, and they are understanding, this aspect now, and so we, we have- Negotiation with, thirteen, yeah, thirteen countries in Africa now, and I think we will open two, maybe three new countries, in twenty" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:01", "start": 2641.31, "text": "twenty-four. Fantastic. Okay. and, just any other thoughts in terms of where things are going with Bitcoin mining, rigs and, you know, mining machines? Do you have any sort of broad views on where the market is going to go there in terms of the development of those?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "44:19", "start": 2659.24, "text": "I think the biggest development At the moment, will be in Africa, yeah. But, you, you will see, big mining in, Latin America too, in Argentina, you know, they have a big resource of gas in Argentina. the company Cruso is working, very well in Africa, in, in Argentina at the moment, but, we have a, we have a project too in Argentina, a big one. we have big project on flagas. we discover many, many resources of, of flagas and, I- I think it will be the," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "44:55", "start": 2694.66, "text": "the, the new objective of many miner-miners to, to, to stop the flargas To reduce" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:02", "start": 2702.25, "text": "the flagas. Right, I see. And so just looking at BBGS in terms of what sort power sources you look for, I presume then from, you know, what we've been speaking about, it's mainly hydro. Flare gas and some solar. Would that be the main, energy sources that you're looking at?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "45:22", "start": 2721.91, "text": "no, we have a, a big project in Kenya on the, how to say, in English," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "45:31", "start": 2730.57, "text": "Are the same than in, in El Salvador, you know the, yeah. Correct. Yeah. we, we can work on all types of, energy of electricity. I, it must be regular. That's all. But we have a, a project in Mauritania too, in the corridor of wind. So you have wind, it's a, it's a wind plant. We, you have wind, 24 hours and 24 hours and maybe, yeah, every day." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:06", "start": 2766.46, "text": "Interesting. And so in, in the wind case, is it similar to like what we were saying with solar, that if the wind isn't blowing, you have to either use really old ASIC machines or have some other form of energy that's also gonna work when the wind isn't on? we, we" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "46:22", "start": 2781.85, "text": "imagine to have electricity eighty percent of time, in this project in Mauritania, so now we, we will use, modern, Azix. But it's a very particular, wind plant. You, you-- It's windy every day, every day. Right, I see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:40", "start": 2799.79, "text": "It's like-- It, it would only work in this particular area, maybe not in other areas." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "46:44", "start": 2804.23, "text": "Yeah. about wind, absolutely, I, I think this kind of energy can be efficient, in this region, in Mauritania, in this corridor, but in France, for example, the, the wind has no interest. It's stupid to continue to develop this kind of energy. Right, I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:05", "start": 2825.01, "text": "see." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "47:06", "start": 2825.81, "text": "Yeah, like, like, like, like the solar. Solar is has a big sense in, in Oman or in Dubai, but In North of France, I'm not sure about the, the interest, and we know how to make," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "47:24", "start": 2844.43, "text": "Nuclear plants, so we don't need solar and wind in, in France, sure. But in Africa and in different regions, yeah, sure, it's, it's important and we can do mining on all types of energy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:36", "start": 2856.24, "text": "Yeah, it's interesting, and as you mentioned, I mean, there's all these countries all around the world, all with different climates, different environmental conditions. Does that represent a challenge that you have to, like, your, your team has to figure out how to work in the desert conditions, how to work in the, you know, in, in the Congo, The different environmental conditions, does that mean you have to have a different setup in terms of your containers? Yes," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "48:04", "start": 2883.75, "text": "I think we are-- it's very special, the BBGS, way of work, and it's why we are French. When we started in, 2016, we, we tried to open a farm in France and a second one in Ukraine, in Odessa, and the price of electricity was too expensive, so, we must- Move and find cheap electricity. So in twenty eighteen, I started to, to turn everywhere in the world to find this surplus, and many people, told me that it doesn't exist the surplus in electricity. we- We make electricity, the demand and the supply is the same. No, no, I'm sure it's not, and we find surplus everywhere in Africa, in, in Middle East, in, in Central Europe. Everywhere. You, in Russia, you have so many big hydro power plants with, maybe, five percent of the, the, the, the capacity, you know, working at five percent of the capacity. In Siberia, the, the mining was i-is very, is helping the, the region, but, Very strongly. So yes, we, we used to, to travel. We know how to work in the desert, in the jungle, in the mountain. in, yes, I, I think we are few people to have this experiment because the big miners like the Chinese miners by the-- in the past or the American miners, now they have, enough megawatts in their countries, so they don't travel and they, they know exactly how to make mining in their country. But I'm not sure, they are interested to, to discover other countries." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:59", "start": 2999.08, "text": "One other question around narratives, and, you know, as I'm sure you know, you know, anyone who's been around Bitcoin for some time, the perception has been, oh, you know, Bitcoin mining, it's bad bad for the environment or so-- this, you know, we've all heard this narrative. How has your experience been with, you know, Bitcoin mining narratives and, where would you say we are today compared to historically?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "50:24", "start": 3024.3, "text": "It's changed a lot. yes, in twenty seventeen or eighteen when I, when I explained that, mining was a game changer in, in the production and distribution of electricity. people say, \"This guy is crazy.\" it can't be good to use, so, so much electricity So it's changing now, we, we can see more and more, more people understanding, W-w-what is happening and the, it's from the, the, the electricity companies, they, they, they see that the miners are efficient clients, they pay every month, They consume electricity, the con-consumption is very irregular, so the income is very irregular, and they can cut the miner when they want, so it's just perfect. If you have a, an isolated, hydro power plant and you have this kind of client, it's just magic. So it's changing, we, we can see everywhere that, it's changing and, and now Bitcoin is popular with the- ETF, in the, in the finance world. So I'm sure in three years, four years, this question of, pollution of, proof of work will be totally, totally stupid as an idea." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:05", "start": 3124.96, "text": "Of course, yeah. And as I'm sure you know, in the EU, there's currently some talk about the EU and the regulators and the ECB are trying to-- They're trying to attack proof of work, and they're trying to make it look like, \"Oh, see, Ethereum is so good with the proof of stake,\" and, you know, in their mind, obviously I disagree with that. Do you have much, let's say hope that the EU is going to change their position on this kind of thing, or, or do you see it more like, well, we just need to look for opportunities elsewhere outside of the EU?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "52:39", "start": 3158.9, "text": "I think they, they will understand that, this client is very good for them. So it's why I, I, I often explain that, proof of work Does not consume enough, we have to, if we have more demand, we can convince more people and, as soon as they will- They will see in fact that the miners buy the electricity, the surplus, the excess electricity, and, and give money, and gives money to the, to the country. They will accept. when we start in Oman, just before, I think two months before, the central bank explained that Bitcoin was forbidden in the country. and so I asked to the authorities, is there a, a problem because we have this project? We are- Are buying the Azix and the central bank said it's forbidden. Say, \"No, no, the central banks, they don't, they don't make the law. We make the law.\" And so don't care about the central bank." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:45", "start": 3225.17, "text": "That's really interesting because in one way it shows that you can open doors and when you open that door, now that there's Bitcoin mining going on in the country, it's gonna look kind of silly that the central bank is trying to say Bitcoin isn't allowed when there's Bitcoin mining going on and the government has- As a public private partnership with that entity doing Bitcoin mining, and so I think maybe it helps open the door, it makes it harder to ban Bitcoin, and makes it harder to stop people actually using Bitcoin. So in a way, that's, that's a really good thing." }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "54:15", "start": 3255.43, "text": "Yes, correct. The energy is very important, we can see it, since the beginning of the war with, between Ukraine and Russia, everybody- Start to understand, begin, begin to understand that the energy is very important. So in case of Oman, for example, they have maybe eight hundred megawatts available, it's, it's, A, a, a big amount of money. So," }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "54:45", "start": 3285.28, "text": "okay, the central bank is, explaining it's forbidden, but why? we don't care. the mining is in capacity to buy this electricity and to give money to the country. so, It's just a question of pragmatism, you say pragmatism, yeah, pragmatism, yeah, prag- pragmatism, yes. So I think the mining is a very good door to, to, to open a country, about Bitcoin in general. But it's a very good, it's a very good way to, to convince, to convince, authorities, governments that, Bitcoin is interesting, and after they understand Bitcoin, and after they can accept it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:34", "start": 3334.16, "text": "Yeah, that's fascinating. I think that's a great spot to finish up. If you have any, I guess, closing- Thoughts or any last point you'd like to make for listeners, and of course, where can people find you online?" }, { "speaker": "and_he", "time": "55:46", "start": 3345.84, "text": "Yes. you know, I think the battle at the moment is the, and the danger, the, the truth on Bitcoin is the concentration of, mining in America. So, I say to my colleagues in America, you can continue to develop in America, but you have to, to develop in other countries in the same time. So contact me, I have so many me- I wonder what city we are in Africa." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:11", "start": 3371.22, "text": "Well, fantastic. Well, look, Seb, I appreciate you, joining me, and I know English isn't your first language, so this is a bit uncomfortable for you, but listeners, hope-- Hopefully, you, you got a lot out of hearing from, Seb, and, Seb, hope to chat again soon. Thank you for joining me. Thank you so much. Bye-bye, Stephan." } ] }